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  • Ness vs Archie Sonic

    Low 2-C keys

    Speed equalized

    Standard Equipment Only

    Ness: 14

    Sonic: 10

    Lol, fate manipulation is probably gonna make this incon: 1

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    • Oh god no

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    • It had to be done.

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    • NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! THIS IS NOT WHAT I EXPECTED AGHHHHHHHHHH!!! WHY MUST I SUFFER THIS HORRIBLE FATE ON THIS DAY!!!! WHY

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    • Sonic's fatehax is only defensive so Ness cant kill him

      And Sonic cant kill Ness' because of TOTU's fatehax

      Inconclusive

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    • Just to make sure everyone has this in mind, Ness's fate hax is 4D due to the TOTU being time and space itself. Well, time to sit back and enjoy.

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    • Wait hold up, before we start spamming “Uhhh fate hax gg”

      Do note that Sonic can’t harm Ness physically and by normal means, meaning this would perhaps give Ness an advantage to use attacks and PSI.

      And from Joker vs Sonic, isn’t his hax really inconsistent compared to Ness’s?

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    • Sonic's fatehax is 4-D too, so

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    • Really? Huh. But there aren’t too many feats from what I’ve seen so far.

      Can’t Ness use his PSI abilities to incap Sonic or something?

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    • He can

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    • Sonic’s fate hax is not only 4-D but it’s overrated

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    • So is Ness’s lol.

      Anyway, if Ness can incap with multiple PSI abilities, what does that mean for Sanic?

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    • Incap is still an option, yes.

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    • I retract my vote

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    • Hmm interesting, not gonna cast a vote rn tho.

      I’m just gonna wait.

      Ness FRA

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    • Hmm, so Sonic does have the power ring..

      Thing is, I dunno if it can affect Ness due to his nature. I’m not seeing any wincon here for The Blue Hedgehog just from looking at his profile. If only Avatar Creation was added to Ness’s profile so Sonic can deal with him...Man I really need to finish the CRT

      For Ness: He has PK Flash (Omega having the higher probability to one shot instantly), Hypnosis to make the opponent fall asleep, Paralysis, Shielding/Attack reflection to defend against Physical attacks, Stat amping (Both offense and Defense), PK Rockin to deal massive damage. Now he does have Nigh Omniscient, Possibly giving him more than he already has. Which by that, I mean granting him other PSI abilities since this is his verse we are talking about, but I digress.

      Well I don’t really know the AP here and who takes it, I just know that Ness was bestowed Low 2-C abilities and hax by TOTU. He is then able to fight off Sealed Form Giygas and keep up with and harm 1st phase Giygas (until they needed The Player to deal with the situation). So yes, I do see Ness using incap as an option to win.

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    • Sonic's fate hax can affect type 4 accasuals, and no, it isn't only defensive, it's that Sonic is always fated to win, he can lose temporarily but that's It, and it causes CIS to opponents or just PIS

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    • Wasn’t that all discussed in the Joker vs Sonic thread? That it wouldn’t protect him from incap? I also don’t see “inducing CIS or PIS” happening any time soon for Ness. Especially if he can paralyze or put him to sleep.

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    • Fatehax was interpreted poorly in that thread but that’s not important rn.User’s correct about Sonic’s fatehax and it doesn’t protect him from incap tho.

      Also is Ness’s powers magic based?

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    • Incap falls into temporaly loss, but Sonic's fate hax makes him fated to win, so anything can happen to make him win, the reasons Joker was winning (which I didn't even vote for him) were because he could temporaly make him lose, but it's not like Sonic can't do anything, and yes, inducing CUS might make Ness not want to use those attacks or not feel them as needed, or just miss, etc.

      Will respond to the rest later

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    • Incap falls into temporaly loss, but Sonic's fate hax makes him fated to win, so anything can happen to make him win, the reasons Joker was winning (which I didn't even vote for him) were because he could temporaly make him lose, but it's not like Sonic can't do anything, and yes, inducing CUS might make Ness not want to use those attacks or not feel them as needed, or just miss, etc.

      Will respond to the rest later

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    • What can Sonic even do against an omnipresent?

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    • He very well could null with the power rings.Usually in charcter when Sonic has the rings he uses them.The whole Power Rings stuff is new to me so sorry if it seems inconsistent.

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    • What does the null do?

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    • It removed all the power of a 2-A being and banished him to another universe.Also yes said 2-A being resist the null.

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    • Ness also has the “fated to win” treatment; winning against others no matter what, even if it means getting hurt or dying in a certain situation (at least for The Masked Man, which he most likely got revived, but that’s just speculation). This is all thanks to the TOTU. It’s for the best outcome. Inducing CIS against a Nigh Omniscient character seems really unlikely considering the most I’ve seen is that it worked against Scourge, yes? And it wasn’t entirely specified that it was a consequence of Fate hax. Are there perhaps any other scans of this? Plus Ness’s abilities are activated with a thought, he can most likely pull of Multiple status effects on Sonic before LolPowernull happens.

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    • >Sonic’s fatehax are inherently stronger because they can affect type 4 accasuals.Also it worked on Mammoth Mogul in his 1st and 2nd Tenure form when he was omnipresent accross the Chaos Force.

      >Fatehax inducing CIS on a Nigh Omniscient will effect them.it worked on Mammoth Mogul in his tenure forms as well.Nigh Omniscience doesn’t grant resistance to fatehax.

      >Power Null also happened with a thought as well as seen with Nate Morgan nulling Ugly Nagus with a thought.

      >CIS also makes it difficult for Ness to get off status moves.

      >Also is Ness’s powers magic based?

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    • If it is magic based Ness is in trouble.

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    • Unoriginal Memes
      Unoriginal Memes removed this reply because:
      H
      00:34, September 12, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • PSI isn’t magic at all unless we use the energy equalization thing.

      Even then, Sonic can’t really affect Ness normally.

      Also responding soon to all that other stuff

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    • Sonic’s fatehax can work on him along with the null.

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    • So you’re just going to assume the null would work? PSI isn’t described as being magic at all, it’s psychic energy; Mental abilities. Isn’t the whole energy equalization thing getting revised or something? I dunno. If Energy Equalization is a thing, then I guess it should work? Magic and PSI don’t really have the same properties however.

      Regarding Fate hax, I’m very well aware it’s on a 2-A scale. That was made established many times already. and it’s beginning to tick me off I don’t really have any true counters to this other than I actually agreed with what Cal had to say about it. It appears that it isn’t something that will be truly effective as Sonic can still lose here. This is seen by his battle against Joker. Can you at least provide me with some scans of this fate hax? Because I’m honestly getting really tired with the whole “inducing CIS” stuff, some of it does not make sense at all with what’s being provided. The whole “PIS/CIS hax” sounds iffy in general, it’s as if it counts as a different ability as a consequence of Fate hax. It’s like saying any resistance negating hax is just PIS. But even then, most of the time fate hax is downright being inconsistent and vague from what I’ve gathered. At least with Ness we actually see his Fate hax being used in combat effectively throughout the journey, even if there are minor stuff that has to be done in order to achieve victory. MM isn’t Nigh Omniscient.

      Also, is Power Nulling able to affect Ness? He’s non corporeal and is one with the universe. That sorta makes most of what Sonic has Muda. While all Ness has to do is just use Hypnosis or whatever PSI abilities to incap Sanic.

      And even if it does end up getting through Ness, it isn’t killing him or leaving him useless right? I mean, if Ness could also pull off an ability, it would then incap Sonic

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    • >Sonic’s aura null and power ring null are different.Sonic’s aura nulls magic power which if PSI isn’t magic it won’t be applicable here.The power ring null works regardless of magic.

      >It’s 100% effective here as it induces CIS onto Ness and prevents Sonic from truly dying.It’s not inconsistent as Sonic’s never died and in combat scenarios it either affects said opponent or it’s unnecessary like when Super Sonic fight Enerjak because Sonic wasn’t in danger of dying.The joker thread again misinterpreted Fatehax and was only presented in a defensive way and not offensively.I know MM isn’t Nigh Omniscient and I mentioned him because you said you remember it only affecting Scourge.

      >Ness will be infected with CIS which will make hitting Sonic hard and since Sonic can’t physically harm Ness he would fall back on the rings which can null him.Just how he couldn’t physically take down Ugly Nagus and relied on the Power Ring to null him.Also considering Sonic’s fatehax are so much stronger it makes Ness’s moot.

      >Powernull will work on Ness.

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    • PSI isn't magic, how does power ring null work and does he open up with it in character.

      Induces CIS onto Ness, k cool, how is he inducing it onto TOTU without knowing about it's existence? This is even assuming you can induce CIS onto an omniscient. 

      Ness gets infected with CIS, and truth snaps him out of it since Sonic didn't apply it to truth nor do the guardians even recognize truth's existence since they think he's merely fighting Ness.

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    • >Power Ring null happens on a 2-A scale and removed all powers of Ugly Nagus whom is 2-A and has resistance to null.This is thought based by the way as shown with Nate Morgan nulling Ugly Nagus.

      >His Fatehax is passive and affects all variables of the fight Ness can only really win here via incap.Fatehax can work on an omniscient.

      >Again it’s passive.Also Sonic likely leads with the rings if he has them on his person as seen in the Robotropolis issues.The rings if necessary can grant him intelligence and foresight on his opponent as well.

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    • This is an oof on cosmic perportions.

      Although I think Oblivion is making the most sense.

      Sonic FRA.

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    • Another thing is if Power bull could even affect Ness at all/4D beings. You simply said “it’ll work” with no explanation. The whole “CIS” argument is really starting to get repetitive and fate hax isn’t “entirely” superior Ness’s. I do believe Ness has more demonstrations of it being effective in battle. I also don’t get why it would cancel TOTU’s hax, it’s still protecting Ness from danger.

      Also... Ness can still incap ya know? CIS wouldn’t really make the attack miss at all or change Ness’s mind about his own decisions.

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    • Didn't answer my second question. 

      Ness' fate hax is passive too, I never once contested Sonic's not being passive, this is red herring. "all variables" is vague, prove it's aware of outside forces. Fatehax can work on an omniscsient, that's not the argument I made that argument I made was CIS can't work on an omniscient. Two completely different things.

      Never contested it was Sonic. Scans now.

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    • Neon Battle Bind wrote: This is an oof on cosmic perportions.

      Although I think Oblivion is making the most sense.

      Sonic FRA.

      No one voted for Sonic lol

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    • Also now that I've read through Archie Sonic's profiles, has he been shown able to harm non-corporeals in base? It's not on his profile anywhere so he can't even physically touch Ness. I'd also like to know if power ring is thought based or not.

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    • Also like, the main argument is that Fate hax will take an affect on Ness and make Sonic win Via..... What now? Fate hax? But how.

      It doesn’t make too much sense. Power null doesn’t kill, it simply takes away the abilities. Ness can still do all of the stuff me and Giver mentioned.

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote: Also now that I've read through Archie Sonic's profiles, has he been shown able to harm non-corporeals in base? It's not on his profile anywhere so he can't even physically touch Ness. I'd also like to know if power ring is thought based or not.

      Not too sure. I used this argument in the beginning of the match and It seems he that can’t actually harm Ness. As for the power ring, it was said to be thought based iirc

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    • So both haxxes are thought based, Sonic gets mind haxxed and Ness gets power-nulled. So unless power rings can also undo the effects, it'd be Sonic incapped and Ness nulled. Also from what I understand from Sonic's fate hax it also saves him at times by getting outside help to save him, which goes against a vs thread. So it's even less helpful here.

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    • >The rings consist of 4-D powers as they come from the Chaos Force which in it’s self is 4-D.Also chaos energy can harm Enerjak and Master Mogul whom are 4-D beings.

      >Clearer demonstration doesn’t mean it’s stronger,Sonic’s fatehax by default are stronger by affecting type 4 acasuals which Ness’s fatehax can’t do unless proven.TOTU is still a factor in the fight Sonic’s fatehax can effect it’s power unless shown to resist said Fatehax.As shown it works on Mammoth Mogul while he was in his 1st and 2nd tenure forms where he’s omnipresent and type 4.

      https://share.icloud.com/photos/0pzddrFEyQ2--k2bcmDKQZRNA#

      >Inducing CIS through date is the offensive capabilities of his fatehax.Migul stayed that what ever power he used the fates convened to make him lose.Fate destines Sonic’s opponent to lose simple as that.Does Ness even lead with incap?

      >What are you talking about?Being Nigh Omniscient doesn’t mean you can resist CIS caused by fate manip,especially fate manip that can affect type 4 acasuals,where’s that shown or proven?

      Scans

      -Nate Morgan used the wishing power of the rings which nulled Ugly Nagus and sealed him in the Zone of Silence as we don’t see him as Ugly Nagus again due to his nullification.Nate also taught Sonic all about the rings so he would be very likely he would use them especially if they’re in his arsenal.Considering it nulled a 2-A down to a Low 2-C Ness would be useless when nulled.

      https://share.icloud.com/photos/0iurrRgguObIzK0fC72aTRlmw

      I vote Sonic for my reasons.

      I’m done debating for tonight rn.

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote: So both haxxes are thought based, Sonic gets mind haxxed and Ness gets power-nulled. So unless power rings can also undo the effects, it'd be Sonic incapped and Ness nulled. Also from what I understand from Sonic's fate hax it also saves him at times by getting outside help to save him, which goes against a vs thread. So it's even less helpful here.

      >Ness’s Mindhax ain’t doing jack to Sonic’s resistance

      >Outside help from fatehax is just away it’s preformed.Fate manip Just allowed intervention from freinds,here it will still have the same effect but just not include intervention.

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    • Here’s the blog that has a good intro into Sonic’s FateHax if anyone wants it.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Executor_N0/Sonic_Franchise:_Archie_Sonic_Plot_Armor#WikiaArticleComments

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    • >Don't remember once asking for the dimensionality, but ok.

      >It affects type 4's, cool, asides from the fact that it's not as impressive as people attempt to make it out to be (especially at tier 2), it also doesn't debunk anything I argued thusfar. Yes he can fatehax Ness, not only did I not contest this but I explained why it's useless.

      >Never denied it's not offensive, even though that doesn't remotely seem offensive in that scan. Fate destines that Sonic won't die, he doesn't, he gets incapped. That's literally his entire thing that he's a pacifist and leads with incap hax rather then killing hax. 

      >Can't believe I need to explain this.

      "CIS refers to mental limits of a character that cause them to perform at below the true potential of their powers. The term is somewhat of a misnomer, since it refers to more than just stupidity - it could also refer to a character's unawareness, morals, or any other mental characteristic that limits the use of their powers."

      We live in a society where an omniscient can be unaware now, damn. It being caused by fate manip is irrelevant, unless Sonic has been specifically shown to affect an omniscient with it.

      Nate.

      Nate

      Nat

      Na

      N

      So from what I've seen nothing implies Sonic uses this in-character, and that the hax comes from powerscaling, neato. Ness takes this due to PSI incap.

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    • Ness FRA

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      >Outside help from fatehax is just away it’s preformed.Fate manip Just allowed intervention from freinds,here it will still have the same effect but just not include intervention.

      >" Mind Manipulation (Unaffected by Enerjak's takeover from the brainwashing hex, which allowed him to possess Knuckles)"

      ^He resists brainwashing, not the type of mind hax Ness uses. 

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Battle_Assumptions

      "Outside Influence: None. No characters of either verse, aside from those participating in the battle, may influence the outcome of the battle in any way. That means they may not join the fight, grant buffs, create shields, provide information etc. Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of a characters own powers and abilities."

      Notice how none of the exceptions include fate hax randomly having outside influence occur.

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    • Now I want to read Archie Sonic comics now. Also Sonic FRA

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      Here’s the blog that has a good intro into Sonic’s FateHax if anyone wants it.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Executor_N0/Sonic_Franchise:_Archie_Sonic_Plot_Armor#WikiaArticleComments

      "

      I hadn't considered that the billionth ring aura and the "constant inconsistency" could be the same thing. And if I'm being perfectly honest, I still don't.

      Mogul's assertation that reality warped to allow Sonic to defeat him is technically correct, however, it's not that reality changed to have Sonic win it changed to have Mogul lose. The Ancient Walkers cursed Mogul's emerald so that all his plans would fail, this is in no way a result of Sonic's aura.

      It feels more like Eggman is making excuses for his failures rather than plot manipulation being an actual aspect of the ring aura. The fact Eggman has previously defeated Sonic works against his theory. While Eggman is a genius, he was insane when he developed this theory, and it was the thing that allowed him to regain his sanity. The way I see it, this idea is what keeps him from going crazy due to failure, the way he calms down after reminding himself that "chaos is a constant" implies that it's almost a sort of coping mechanism. However, I'm not on the up and up on post-genesis-wave events sound I could be wrong about this.

      Sonic having a positive aura is (as far as I'm aware) only mentioned while he's Super Sonic. To me, this implies that this also is not the ring aura, but a result of Sonic using positive chaos energy to transform. It's also worth noting that breaking Finitevus' hex was entirely Locke's doing, Sonic played no part in it. The most that could be argued is his positive aura helped weaken Enerjak enough for Knuckles to...reject him, or whatever, once he regained sanity.

      The fact Scourge was able to use the Master Emerald without Finitevus' knowing to charge a warp ring shows that the ring aura was not responsible for Sonic being able to access the emerald's power. Locke is obviously blocked from using it and while he speculates others are too, Finitevus never confirms this and is only perplexed that Sonic is able to use it without any ill effects rather than that he is able to use it at all.

      Honestly, the only powers the billionth ring aura seems to grant naturally is preserving Sonic humanity and restoring said humanity but only with additional power. Overall, it's nothing to write home about.

      As a side note, the hex didn't prevent Archimedes' telepathy from working, it warped Knuckles' mind to the point that telepathy wouldn't help.

      Edit: I made a more in-depth thread on this."

      That just made it sound even worse.

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    • So wait, what are Sonic win con here again? I don’t completely understand why when half of it were just the good old “fate hax inducing CIS” argument or Powernull. At best it would force this matchup into an inconclusive verdict. When most of what Sonic has can’t affectively or properly kill Ness.

      Meanwhile Ness has a lot of incap options and has a good advantage Via being one with space and time.

      Btw

      Ness: 2

      Sonic: 2

      Inconclusive: 0

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:

      Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      >Outside help from fatehax is just away it’s preformed.Fate manip Just allowed intervention from freinds,here it will still have the same effect but just not include intervention.

      >" Mind Manipulation (Unaffected by Enerjak's takeover from the brainwashing hex, which allowed him to possess Knuckles)"

      ^He resists brainwashing, not the type of mind hax Ness uses. 

      Both involve affecting the mind. Brainwashing not be the “type” Ness uses doesn’t mean anything when the effect of having the mind being manipulated is what’s being resisted.

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    • VioletVoid100 wrote: Now I want to read Archie Sonic comics now. Also Sonic FRA

      A heads up, issues 100 - 150 are a tough read. Ian Flynn starts his writing in 160, with the beginning of Scourge. Ian Flynn’s writing slowly gets better to being amazing as the issues go on.

      But issue 1 - 50 plus the miniseries are always a pleasure reread. It reminds a simpler time for the comic.

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    • I’m inconclusive. My gut say Sonic but I don’t like to keep relying on FateHax for Sonic to get the win. If only he was allowed to have his iconic speed superiority for once...

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    • Ugh, again, what is Sonic win con again? We’ve ran down through this multiple times...

      I honestly just see Ness having more advantages here.

      And I don’t really think that’s a valid vote for Inconclusive just because you don’t rely on a cheap tactic. Which I respect btw.

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    • This is really wanking that Nigh-Omniscience of Ness.

      A Low 2-C’s Nigh-Omniscience means jack shit against a fate hax that affected an omnipresent type 4 acausal 2-A.

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    • Power Rings actually are shown to undo mindhax.

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    • Ness doesn’t use Mind Manipulation, it’s Psychic Energy Manipulation.

      Giygas is the one with mind hax heckery.

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    • Oh! Why was it mentioned then?

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    • @GamersRiseUp1 Please delete or decrease the size of the photo.

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    • Sorry, you’re right, QuirkyBoy. I’ll just hold off voting for now. I just really want to have Sonic’s speed to be a factor again. Sonic’s main power is his speed and yet its made redundant in the OPs.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      I’m inconclusive. My gut say Sonic but I don’t like to keep relying on FateHax for Sonic to get the win. If only he was allowed to have his iconic speed superiority for once...

      Uhh, Ness is omnipresent and Base Sonic is MFTL+.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote: Oh! Why was it mentioned then?

      Mm, I’m not quite sure myself.

      Also....@GamerRiseUp1

      Lookin Cool Joker!!!

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: Uhh, Ness is omnipresent and Base Sonic is MFTL+.

      So... hm. i’m clearly dumb. Ness is Ominpresent and Sonic is MFTL+. Is that a bad thing for Sonic or Ness?

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    • @Elixir Ness being Omnipresent means he's everywhere. It's above any MFTL+ character.

      Things seem to have been getting heated before, so I'll just say something.

      Just a friendly reminder that this is all for entertainment at the end of the day. When the entertainment turns into frustration, it loses its purpose when you or others stop having fun. While a VS thread is obviously competitive, people shouldn't be getting angry.

      So what if Ness beats Sonic or Sonic beats Ness? At the end of the day, people love their characters and they're both still incredibly formidable. Just take a step away from the thread, take a deep breath, and just remember that it isn't that big of a deal.

      With that said, I'm gonna be heading off to bed. Good night, peeps, and just remember to have fun and be civil!

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    • @Elixir It's a bad thing for Sonic.

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    • I acknowledge your kind words and the reminders you set out here. Thank you, I appreciate them a lot. It’s a reminder to not get all moody and toxic. I understand them greatly. Goodnight! And have a Great day!

      This applies to you all.

      I just don’t like the argument that is being displayed for Sonic is all. I’m chill regardless even if it doesn’t seem like it.

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    • Ok. So, Sonic wouldn’t be able to hurt Ness, I guess.

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    • Yep....

      That’s what me and Giver have been trying to say this entire time....

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    • It's funny how you call him "Giver". I have a different name for him.

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    • Oo tell me.

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    • I usually call him "Bendy" as do others. This is because his name back then was "Undoubtly Bendy" or something like that. That was a long time ago though.

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    • Huh, neat. Man, that really brings me back to when he first commented on my Earthbound major CRT....

      Good times...

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    • Memories huh? Well, let's not get too off topic anyways. Currently there's two for each character.

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    • Yes, and they were good (unlike my younger days...That was full of cringe). It is neat.

      Anyway, yes, we are getting a bit off topic.

      To get things on topic...

      Uhh fate hax, yeah I don’t really that’s a good comparison since that other character is probably not Nigh Omniscient like Ness. So please elaborate on why it is “jack sh*t” to me. I’m pretty curious as to how the two relate to eachother.

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    • Question, would the Power Rings depower Ness? See Nate Morgan, the little Overlander

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    • I guess his PSI? Not sure if it affects a living universe though.

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    • Depower as in depowering his tier or whatever? Probably not, the kid is a Universe. That’s impossible to do (tho this is Archie, they can do whatever they want). Or do you mean depower as in nullifying Ness’s PSI? In which, probably yes but not before Sonic gets incap’d.

      IMO The Sonic votes should not even be counted as it wasn’t specified what his win con was, but I digress.

      Giver pretty much covered a lot on these arguments.

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    • The Power Ring depowered Naugus, who was 2-A at the time. His base was Low 2-C, as he expanded a tiny space of pocket dimension into a universe with its own properties.

      Partly the reason why Sonic is considered Low 2-C with scaling. Not the only reason but one of them.

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    • Naugus is not 4D tho, so I don’t think that would work? I dunno, someone can correct me on that one.

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    • I'll let the people on Sonic's side argue a bit more before deciding if their votes can be counted or not.

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    • Yeah, that seems fair.

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    • Nah, Naugus isn’t 4D. But it still effected a 2-A, which Ness lower on the scale.

      I haven’t really seen Power Rings effecting Time. Unless the ability to age Amy Rose up a couple more years counts.

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    • That just sounds like age manipulation.

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    • Then no. I know Power Rings were in part created by the Chaos Emerald, who can effect 4D beings, but I don’t recall Power Rings themselves effecting time in the comic.

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    • They can block (or negate) Naugus’s magic completely.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • bruh, that should not count

      Could someone at least answer my questions before we even spam mindles FRA’s?

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Both involve affecting the mind. Brainwashing not be the “type” Ness uses doesn’t mean anything when the effect of having the mind being manipulated is what’s being resisted.

      It actually does, especially since Ness can affect beings without brains with his mind hax, Sonic doesn't show that kind of resistance on his profile.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:
      This is really wanking that Nigh-Omniscience of Ness.

      A Low 2-C’s Nigh-Omniscience means jack shit against a fate hax that affected an omnipresent type 4 acausal 2-A.

      Prove the type 4 acausal 2-A is nigh-omniscience or you can't call it wank.  Intelligence doesn't mean much to tier, I don't know why you're trying to correlate them.

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    • Inconclusive both have decent fatehax but not op fatehax

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    • Ness fra

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    • NotAMarioFan(lol) wrote: Inconclusive both have decent fatehax but not op fatehax

      I mean I guess incon is valid? Ness actually has win cons tho.

      Btw 3 for Ness

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    • Ness FRA.

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    • Psshh I was waiting for this to happen

      Ness FRA

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    • @Giver

      >considering Sonic beat Lavos and fatehax can affect him.Idk where you’re getting that nigh omniscience provides resistance to Fatehax it honestly sounds like wanking of Ness’s abilities.

      >Luke Skywalker can mindhax robots with no minds and Sonic beat him because that degree of mindhax is galactic in range while Sonic has a 2-A resistance.If it doesn’t have 2-A range it’s not doing anything to Sonic.Like Shadow said Sonic’s mind has 2-A resistance

      >Fatehax will do it’s best to make Sonic win the match making it difficult for Ness to incap as proven with Sonic vs Lavos.I and as shown it can affect Nigh Omniscient beings.

      >Once Sonic realizes he can’t physically harm or damage Ness with his hax he would use the wishing power of the rings.Nate Morgan taught Sonic all about the rings and he w may not lead with them but he’s definitely capable of knowing how it use them.Also usually when we see Sonic with a power ring he uses it.

      >The power rings are created from chaos energy which is 4-D so it’s going to affect Ness.The rings have 2-A hax due to this.Also Sonic has delt with omnipresent beings before.

      >Both Sonic and Ness have wincons but Sonic’s is easier to pull off.As Ness will have a difficult time trying to incap after he realizes he can’t kill Sonic due to fatehax.That give Sonic more than enough time to use the Rings especially since Sonic’s other hax can’t hurt Ness.

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    • If Super Sonic was used, Sonic more likely got the win, as Super Sonic can defeat/affect 4D beings. And not just because the tier is higher.

      But Base Archie Sonic has dealt with time... twice, I wanna say. But those times he used one-time equipment, like the Super Emerald or whatever Rotor did in Mobius 25 years later.

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Both involve affecting the mind. Brainwashing not be the “type” Ness uses doesn’t mean anything when the effect of having the mind being manipulated is what’s being resisted.

      It actually does, especially since Ness can affect beings without brains with his mind hax, Sonic doesn't show that kind of resistance on his profile.

      Affecting beings without brains has nothing to do with potency. That’s not remotely how mindhax works, you need to have mindhax that is stronger than what the opponent resisted in order to mindhax them.

      Plus Ness doesn’t even have mindhax.

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    • >Super Sonic isn’t being used so why bring him up?

      >The rings are 4-D as they’re made of Chaos Energy which derives from the Chaos Emeralds.Chaos energy can hurt Enernjak and Mogul who are 4-D.

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    • Why are we talking about MindHax if Sonic or Ness doesn’t have them?

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote: >The rings are 4-D as they’re made of Chaos Energy which derives from the Chaos Emeralds.Chaos energy can hurt Enernjak and Mogul who are 4-D.

      Hm. I’m really not liking the assumptions when it comes to this. I thought we were only using in story abilities. As in, in story, if the Rings were shown to affect time.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Why are we talking about MindHax if Sonic or Ness doesn’t have them?

      >Giver keeps using them as a reason why Ness wins.

      >It’s not an asssumption as Mogul and Enerjak are affected by Sonic’s hax which derive from chaos energy just like the power rings derive from chaos energy.The Chaos Force is inherently 4-D.I don’t wanna explain this again.

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    • I know it’s not an assumption that Mogul and Enerjak are affected by the FateHax. I also know Base Sonic physically touched Enerjak and knocked his helmet off before Enerjak got a little depowered.

      I saying it’s an assumption the standard Power Rings can affect 4D beings and Time. The assumption is made because they were created by the Chaos Emeralds but I’m wondering in consideration of the threads that use in story examples to determine what a character is capable of.

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    • Again......the Power Rings derive from the literal source of 4-D energy in Archie Sonic.It’s a huge assumption to assume they aren’t 4-D if anything.

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    • I would like to say, Ness incaps in-character.

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    • He seems like the character to not wanna kill right off the bat tbh.

      Anyway,how does Ness preform his incap?

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    • Would the Theuser789 like to say anything?

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    • By sleep manipulation or just by damaging them until the opponent is no longer able to fight.

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    • Anything OvO

      But I agree with Oblvion

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    • Is his sleep manip a profectile or....

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    • No,  it's mind based...literally.

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    • So, are we saying the Power Rings are Chaos Emeralds? That where the conversation sounds like it’s going to.

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    • This is getting really annoying.....

      Powers Rings and Chaos Emeralds are from the same source of power that makes them 4-D.The Chaos Force is 4-D.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:
      snip

      Are you seriously comitting an appeal to authority and agruing that because he won in a subjective vs thread against Lavos it works? How about simply the person in that thread didn't argue that for Lavos? Even then, I never contested fate hax not working on Ness I said the CIS portion of it won't work. You're strawmanning my claims.

      Luke Skywalker can do that because he has potent mind hax, and where on that profile does it say he beat Luke? Once again you're trying to use a vs thread to prove your point when vs threads are subjective

      By the time Sonic realizes that Ness is incapping him. Especially now since you've admitted via this claim that power rings isn't his go-to hax. 

      Didn't deny nor contest the power ring wouldn't affect Ness.

      Sonic's isn't easier to pull off since he needs to realize he can't physically harm Ness while Ness just thinks. 

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    • Ness FRA.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • Ness FRA

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    • Grace

      Ness: 7

      Sonic: 2 (3?)

      Inconclusive: 2

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    • Ness FRA

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    • 8 for Ness

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    • I saw this match coming.

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    • Ness fra

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      GiverOfThePeace wrote:


      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Both involve affecting the mind. Brainwashing not be the “type” Ness uses doesn’t mean anything when the effect of having the mind being manipulated is what’s being resisted.

      It actually does, especially since Ness can affect beings without brains with his mind hax, Sonic doesn't show that kind of resistance on his profile.
      Affecting beings without brains has nothing to do with potency. That’s not remotely how mindhax works, you need to have mindhax that is stronger than what the opponent resisted in order to mindhax them.

      Plus Ness doesn’t even have mindhax.

      That means his mind hax is above biological potency what do you mean "has nothing to do with potency"? Have you read the mindhax page?

      "Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations."

      Do you not know what PSI is in essence?

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    • 9 for Ness

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    • Besides, wasn’t it Super or Ultra Sonic that defeated Lavos? Base Sonic doesn’t have the same abilities as his super forms.

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    • Yea it was super and ultra. 

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    • Pretty sure both were at their peak.

      Besides, that matchup is irrelevant here.

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    • Look at it this way. Finally Ness isn't gonna have an inconclusive battle.

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    • Also, PSI isn’t magic based, it’s psychic based.

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    • >I’m not saying that at all.I’m referencing the fact that Sonic’s fate hax worked on a Nigh Omniscient.Not a certain part of his Fatehax is included that’s honestly just downplay.I literally never appealed to authority,just merely saying that on this site Sonic’s fatehax can work to it’s fullest on a Nigh Omniscient.You need to prove that Sonic’s fatehax won’t work when the site has accepted its use on a Nigh Omniscient in the past.

      >The potency of mindhax is based on range.Luke has Multi Galactic range while Sonic has 2-A resistance.You’re really stretching Ness’s use of mindhax here if you believe it works on someone with a 2-A resistance.Ness doesn’t have that range.

      >It is his go to hax when fighting a being he can’t touch.I could also argue he would use it in character as Nate has taught him all about the rings power and their capabilities.Not only that in the Robobopolis issues he uses the Rings whenever they’re on him.

      >Fatehax will make Ness’s incap be very difficult to pull off but it is possible as Sonic’s fatehax make Sonic destined to win but he has shown to be incapped..Also Sonic needs a thought to Null Ness.It’s a close match but I see Sonic wining here.

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    • Can we stop with the MindHax talk till someone shows a scan of Ness using MindHax? I’m hearing yes he does but then multiple people say he doesn’t.

      It’s getting confusing for me. ;^;

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    • Lol, since when does Ness use Mindhax? He resists it on Giygas’ scale.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Besides, wasn’t it Super or Ultra Sonic that defeated Lavos? Base Sonic doesn’t have the same abilities as his super forms.

      >Sonic’s fatehax retain their potency in all forms.Mogul even admitted that he wouldn’t attack Sonic then because he knew Fatehax would cause him to lose.

      >Also you completely ignored the part where they explain the ranges determines the potency of mindhax.

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    • He doesn’t, that’s Giygas.

      For the last time, he uses Psychic Energy Manipulation...

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    • Ness has like, a plethora of status buffs.

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    • Ness's sleep manipulation is thought based. Ness seems to be more likely to actually use this as it's in character for him to do this. I still question how Sonic will even be able to attack Ness. Reminde, he became one with the universe.

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    • Siding with Ness FRA

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    • Also if Ness’s incap is mind based Sonic would resist it.

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    • Does Sonic resist Sleep Manipulation? If not, then my vote still stands, and sonic gets SMAAAAASHED!

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote: Sonic’s mindhax retain their potency in all forms.Mogul even admitted that he wouldn’t attack Sonic then because he knew Fatehax would cause him to lose.

      Please. Please tell me you actually mean Sonic’s mindhax resistance, which he does have, and not, his FateHax can induce mindhax... well, actually, Snivley and Naugus were acting pretty stupid when they had the upper hand against Sonic... hm... when they both have shown how cunning they are in a lot of other circumstances...

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:
      Snip

      It "worked" on a nigh-omniscient in a vs thread. That's not objective, nor an instance where he's done it, it's a thread where it either wasn't argued or no one brought that up. "You need o prove that Sonic's fatehax won't work" and like that we have just went into reversal burden of proof. You're asking me to prove a negative. Prove your claim.

      I literally just linked a thread above that explained it can be range but it can also be what you can do with said mind hax.

      So again, he tries to touch Ness and can't, why are we just suddenly ignoring that Ness' go to action is going to be PSI incap? Let me play down the series of events you're expecting me to believe here:

      >Sonic tries to hit Ness

      >Realizes he can't

      >Ness just stands there for whatever reason

      >He uses power rings.

      Someone teaching you how to use something =/= it's what you open up with. 

      Fatehax would make it impossible to kill Sonic nowhere in the blog nor what I've been shown does it state that fate hax makes it difficult for Sonic to be incapped. Sonic needs a thought to null Ness, afer he realizes he can't punch Ness. Ness needs a thought to incap Sonic without needing a realization. Ness' hit goes first.

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    • Even if Sonic somehow manages to defeat Ness, TOTU will say it’s a bad dream, and return to the last savepoint.

      Edit: Fatehax.

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    • How is Sonic resistant to sleep manipulation?

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    • Lemme note when I say "mind hax" I'm just referring to PSI since PSI is basically using your mind to do stuff.

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: How is Sonic resistant to sleep manipulation?

      Far as I can remember, Archie Sonic has never encountered anyone with Sleep Manipulation.

      Which makes characters like Jigglypuff OP

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    • @DatOneWeeb

      He isn’t. Ness puts him to sleep and beats him up with his baseball bat, then PETA files a lawsuit.

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote: Lemme note when I say "mind hax" I'm just referring to PSI since PSI is basically using your mind to do stuff.

      Hm. MindHax means something else in these parts of the internet.

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    • PETA filed a lawsuit as soon as he saw Ness beat up a dog and bird from the start of the game.

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    • NotAMarioFan(lol) wrote:
      Inconclusive both have decent fatehax but not op fatehax

      Have you read the Archie Sonic comics?

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    • rip birb and doge

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    • TheQuirkyBoy wrote: Grace

      Ness: 7

      Sonic: 2 (3?)

      Inconclusive: 2

      Sonic has at least four votes, me, Oblivion, Violet and Jjmil

      Recount them pls

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    • Ness wins if not stomps

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    • @VioletVoid100

      Have you played Earthbound?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Hm. MindHax means something else in these parts of the internet.

      It's technically stil mind manipulation (just done and used on yourslef to do a power) but I realized afterwards the confusion people were getting with "mind hax".

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    • Ness has 9.

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    • Ok, I’m spilling the difference when it comes to the Power Rings (to be fair).

      • Power Rings are made by the energy of the Chaos Emeralds a.k.a. Chaos Force.
      • Power Rings alone can get Base Sonic to Ultra Sonic, a form which is a higher evolution of Super Sonic.

      However:

      • If this thread cares about in-story feats, Power Rings were never shown to deal with 4D characters or Time itself.
      • It took A LOT of Power Rings to get Base Sonic to Ultra Sonic. Far more than 50 or 100 rings. The Rings themselves were never stated how much was need to get Sonic to Ultra Sonic. But the panels allude a far greater number.

      Conclusion:

      The Power Rings might allowed Sonic’s attacks to make Ness’s nerves twitch.

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    • Doesn’t Sonic drop his rings upon being damaged?

      Edit: All of them, to be specific?

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    • Read through the thread, I saw like, 10-12 votes for Ness and 4-5 for Archie Sonic.

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    • ThQuibster wrote:
      Doesn’t Sonic drop his rings upon being damaged?

      Edit: All of them, to be specific?

      That's video game continuity, I'm assuming Comics doesn't follow the same thing.

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    • Quibster wrote: Doesn’t Sonic drop his rings upon being damaged?

      Edit: All of them, to be specific?

      That's just gameplay mechanics of the video games, not even from Archie

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    • Are there any scans?

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    • Neon Battle Bind wrote: This is an oof on cosmic perportions.

      Although I think Oblivion is making the most sense.

      Sonic FRA.

      Wait I am wrong, Sonic has at least five

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    • Theuser789 wrote:

      Quibster wrote: Doesn’t Sonic drop his rings upon being damaged?

      Edit: All of them, to be specific?

      That's just gameplay mechanics of the video games, not even from Archie

      There was one time I recall Sonic dropping Rings after getting hit in the entire Archie story. That was the issue that introduced his arguably greatest equipment, The Billionth Ring.

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    • Since I didn’t vote yet, Sonic FRA.

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    • ElixirBlue
      ElixirBlue removed this reply because:
      Wrong scan to use
      15:54, September 12, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Sonic dropping his Rings isn’t an issue in Archie.

      Anyway, Sonic FRA I guess

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    • Most of the times he doesn't, that was literaly the only time he did, plus Game Sonic dropping them is game mechanincs

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    • 64D8D5AA-6C0F-4B85-942F-8D6F1B804E59

      The one time Archie Sonic dropped Rings

      Sorry. The pervious image I use wasn’t the best scan to upload.

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    • But yeah, it’s not an issue because it only happened one time Outlier. I thought I’d post the scan anyway so people know it’s not like it never happened at all.

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    • So Sonic can drop his rings. Go figure.

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    • Do this in a Sonic discussion thread pls.

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    • Anyway, i’m going from inclusive to actually voting.

      Reason: Fiest and the chance a few rings aren’t enough for Sonic to be able to hurt Ness. Fiest is a Low 2-C entity. Yet Sonic was afraid of him. Sonic is never afraid of opponents he can deal with. And while Omega did hurt Fiest, Team Dark still ran away from Fiest, despite Shadow holding a Chaos Emerald.

      Ness FRA

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    • That scan confirms that Sonic can drop his rings upon being damaged. 

      My vote still stands.

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    • The scan proves otherwise cause it was literaly once versus literally over 200 issues were Sonic was damaged and didn't lose rings

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    • There are probably more scans of him losing rings. Don’t try to ignore that.

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    • so is Sonic losing his rings "Not Scientifically Possible?"

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    • Quibster wrote: There are probably more scans of him losing rings. Don’t try to ignore that.

      Nope. No more. Besides, I think it was implied Sonic was collecting rings in a unnamed Zone, as Rings don’t just float out in the open on Mobius.

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    • Quibster wrote: There are probably more scans of him losing rings. Don’t try to ignore that.

      The dude that posted it straight up said that was the only time, if there are any prove him wrong by actually posting them

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    • Quibster wrote:
      There are probably more scans of him losing rings. Don’t try to ignore that.

      Downplay. Like what the hell is wrong with you saying that?

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    • VioletVoid100 wrote:

      Quibster wrote:
      There are probably more scans of him losing rings. Don’t try to ignore that.

      Downplay. Like what the hell is wrong with you saying that?

      Maybe we should take a break. That isn’t tolerated here.

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    • C0186BEF-6592-4436-8CD0-15833AB6104D

      Confirmed to be Sonic was hit/dropped Rings in another Reality

      Sorry if I seemed to derail the thread. I just wanted to get this fact out of the way if someone tried to use the scan as evidence of Sonic using the rings as protection(a.k.a. extra durability) the same way Game Sonic’s game mechanics uses them. The Power Rings do offer protection for Sonic but not like it is for Game Sonic.

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    • I love how they give kudos to an offensive and rude comment like that. Some people.

      Anyways, Sonic cannot touch Ness, Sonic isn’t immune to Sleep Manip, Ness FRA.

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    • Quibster wrote: Ness FRA

      You already voted

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    • I know. I was clarifying the reasons for my vote.

      Thanks for pointing that out. :)

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    • Okey boy FRA

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    • I think Theuser789 was pointing it out so the one’s counting the votes don’t miscount.

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    • Ness FRA x2.

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    • Ness FRA.

      Also, people need to stop wanking the hell out of Sonic's Fate Manipulation.

      “Additionally, having witnessed his abuse of power, the Ancient Walkers placed a curse on his Chaos Emerald to doom his future plans to failure, unbeknownst to Mogul.” - https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/Mammoth_Mogul#targetText=Mammoth%20Mogul%2C%20formerly%20known%20as,during%20the%20Days%20of%20Fury.

      So when Mogul makes that statement, it comes from the fact he's always meant to lose. He isn't even aware of it and Sonic didn't even do anything against Second Tenure Mogul, he got practically one shotted then Turbo Tails bullied Mogul which especially goes against the idea Sonic was the cause of this. In short, Sonic most definitely cannot Fate Hax the Truth of the Universe which is Ness's protection.

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      • The same Ancient Walker who did do that Fate thing against Mogul also granted Sonic the billionth ring.
      • Eggman cooperates the FateHax.
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    • Sonic FRA

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      • The same Ancient Walker who did do that Fate thing against Mogul also granted Sonic the billionth ring.
      • Eggman cooperates the FateHax.

      Okay, now you have to prove it has that potency. Receiving it from them doesn't substantiate the potency, that's an unsubstantiated assumption on your behalf.

      Eggman stating that doesn't prove the potency, I never attested to him having Fate Hax, just the potency.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • Eggman rewrote the laws of reality with the intent of rewriting Sonic’s Chaos factor out of the equation. That was the purpose of the original Genesis Wave. Didn’t ducking work.

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    • A Broken, Chaotic Super Genesis Wave also didn’t effect Sonic in a negative way, only the reality around him.

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    • Ness Fra

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    • @Inverted Tempest “Wanking.”

      Lol, no. The Ancient Walkers died which lifted the curse, so that had no bearing on Master Mogul’s second tenure.

      Sonic didn’t have to do anything directly against Mogul. When Mogul lost to Titan Tails, he didn’t say “oh Titan Tails just beat me”, he directly pinned that on fate convening to ensure Sonic’s victory, whether it be to thwart him or rescue Sonic, alluding it to a cosmic force.

      Then Eggman did the big reveal with The Chaos Factor.

      If Sonic’s fate hax affected an omnipresent type 4 acausal 2-A, it will definitely affect a Low 2-C.

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    • Sonic’s Fatehax is what makes people in vs forums pull a Mogul move and not want to even fight Sonic.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Tfw this doesn't address anything I said.

      Can you prove they lifted the curse? I gave citation as to what I said, you cannot so blatantly state something and expect that to be taken as fact.

      Or he's just referring to the fact those are circumstances Sonic just so happened to have opposed him? All you've proven is you have the ability to take a statement out of context to wank an ability from Archie Sonic. It's clearly demonstated otherwise in that canon that it came from the Walkers damning him.

      Actually let me note something you said. "he directly pinned that on fate convening to ensure Sonic’s victory, whether it be to thwart him or rescue Sonic, alluding it to a cosmic force". Let's refer back to what you said before, "The Ancient Walkers died which lifted the curse, so that had no bearing on Master Mogul’s second tenure." Okay so you are conceding on the fact that in the first fight they had, there definitely was interference from the Ancient Walkers. You already gave a suitable explanation as to why Mogul was PISed, right? A cosmic force. It's almost like that cosmic force was the Ancient Walkers having an influence once more.

      I don't think you and the other guy understood the point I made. I didn't say he didn't have Fate Manipulation, I said it just can't affect Type 4 Beings. It feels like you're trying to strawman what I'm saying here to make me look idiotic when you're just misrepresenting what I said to get the thread to agree with you. I already agreed Eggman's statement is fine to use for Fate Manipulation but nothing about it supports the potency, just that he has the ability. The only thing that remotely points to its potency is Mogul's statement which is the only leverage aside from people taking other scenes and attributing it to Sonic's Fate Hax as if every single moment in the comic has been decided by it when that's not been substantiated. This feels much like the situation where Doodle took a commentator saying someone couldn't destroy the planet as "they can't actually do any damage to it".

      Being 2-A is irrelevant for it affecting stuff, only that it is 4D which Ness is as well making that argument irrelevant. Omnipresence is mostly useless here aside from the range. We've been over why it's not able to affect Type 4s, which makes those other two aspects you tried to load in to make it seem impress completely null. And if it can't affect Type 4s, it won't affect Truth of the Universe which would have a superior Fate Manip by that point.

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    • Seriously, did we really need NSFW posted here?

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    • What??

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    • What the fuck

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    • Waiting for a much needed deletion for this troll before I can read what Inverted Tempest wrote.

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    • I think we're getting raid by trolls since yesterday

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    • @Inverted Tempest

      If they die, their charm over the Emerald will break, and Mogul will be free.

      Since they did indeed die, the curse they put on Mogul’s Emerald was lifted. So you can drop that dickish attitude accusing me of being a wanker.

      That “cosmic force” Mogul was referring to is Sonic being the Embodiment of Chaos, as later revealed by Eggman.

      I didn’t strawman you, plus that’s a bold accusation you’re making.

      Therefore, since Sonic’s fate hax did in fact affect Master Mogul, it can affect Truth of the Universe.

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    • @Inverted Tempest

      1DECCB28-DFA9-4697-882F-6D7F7057DDF2
      FF20309C-A296-4F24-BDFE-B1748ACA8308
      044CD8C9-7854-4012-8A42-06EC1608217F
      53189F04-2C5A-44D8-97E6-13365E885191
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    • A3E38AA7-BAC7-4415-9CEE-56E0991F1BEC

      Also, you admit Mogul was a Type 4 being and could have the intelligence that came with it. Why would the same person be suspicious of Sonic and not blame his failures on Turbo Tails or Titan Tails? Tails was called the chosen one even.

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    • Oh come on, why did it have to be my thread to involve porn? Anyways, what's the vote count?

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Okay, you finally brought a scan. That was literally all you guys had to do. This was only an issue because the Fate Hax has been very poorily portrayed on these threads thus far.

      Also, you need to calm down. I said people in general need to stop wanking it, not you specifically so don't try to twist my wording as if I was personally attacking you. I suggest you still your tongue because the only frustration came from someone making null and void claims that took forever to make somewhat of a point.

      That very much isn't true in the first scenario as you agreed to earlier. Could you give more substantiation it's still within the context Sonic is doing this to Mogul? He attributes this to a singular thing with how it's worded, with the Walkers obviously being the main influence the first time. It just seems unlikely with how the context is. 

      How is that not a strawman? I said Mogul wasn't fate haxxed from Sonic and you kept saying there were statements of him manipulating fate from Eggman why I never was against the idea he had the ability. This came still even after I told the person beforehand Eggman's statements don't prove potency, that's an assumption that comes from Mogul's statements. Without Mogul, Eggman would just make that baseline. That would be shifting the goalposts at worst which still would be something negative you would've done.

      Regardless even if we were to drop this point, this doesn't counter the fact it's already established Ness has better wincons here and the Fate Manip is useless to his incap. 

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    • I know Ness has better wincons but I would like a scan to show his Fate resistance.

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    • EEB300C8-DF60-462F-AA30-569E50FEC177

      Um, why does Eggman’s statements don’t prove Sonic’s FateHax is above baseline? He changed the laws of reality to get rid of it.

      12D80C9D-14EF-45E7-9672-CE9E936FBB9E
      943CF58A-AC4F-45A7-89E5-018DE89617EE
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    • Despite knowing Sonic can turn Super with Chaos energy, Eggman still said that the energy through his cables should had fired him. This is coming from a guy who was smart enough to warp reality through machinery.

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    • Sonic’s FateHax: “Sonic always Wins”.

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    • Honestly, fate manipulation should just stop being argued as it doesn't stop incap. 

      As for votes. I think Ness has 14. Sonic has 10. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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    • Not sure if grace should start or not, due to Ness having enough votes.

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    • It should

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    • Okay then.

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    • Oh, I already had voted for Ness because of the incap. Inverted Tempest was just... I was getting annoyed.

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    • I swear if this is going to end off as inconclusive...

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    • Probably not, Ness has enough votes. Unless somebody brings up something new.

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    • Well...

      Only time can tell.

      I have to slep now. Gn

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    • Ness FRA

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    • That is 15 for Ness.

      Can this be added now?

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    • One more hour of grace.

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    • Oof ok

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    • I can’t believe Ness finally won a match

      Against Archie, no less

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    • Yeah, out of all people...

      It was the strongest version of Sonic....

      Which is pretty Gucci on my book.

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    • >Sonic finally starts gaining a loss streak

      Gir - Finally!

      Gir - Finally!

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    • GG no re. Get PK Fire’d Sonic mains as this shall be marked in the history of vs debating. ( Apologies if I sounded too condescending there...I am just surprised that Ness got his first win

      BB535DF3-B0AE-49D2-8ACC-600C9B529374
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    • Alright I’m adding this now

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    • @Chritian

      Don't expect it to last.

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    • Archie Sonic at Low 2-C is deadass gonna become Bill Cipher

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    • Oof Sonic’s profile is locked.

      Added it to Ness’s tho

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    • The Smashor wrote:
      @Chritian

      Don't expect it to last.

      Screw ye.

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    • It won't. You know this as well as I do. But Sadistic Sleuth's comment gave me a great idea for a mistake.

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    • @Smashor, already done, Sonic stomps. Wait until Low 2-C Sonic gets more disrespect, then it's possible

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    • Speaking of Bill, I noticed Ness was under his losses, but Ness doesn’t have Bill on his victories.

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    • Because Ness now stomps Bill really badly. Bills profile is locked and thus nobody removed his loss against Ness.

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    • Bill lost to Sally when she was 4-B.

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    • @Shadow that's because she had SoA.

      now a plain Sally vs Bill might be fair.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Bill lost to Sally when she was 4-B.

      07CBCCAE-CB01-47A6-8861-A719732A57A1
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    • OMG NESS FINALLY WINS

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    • Someone is certainly happy.

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    • A FANDOM user
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