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  • since Archie Sonic vs Dracula would probably be a passive stomp I decided to put him up against the second most haxed non-Dark Lord in the series

    Low 2-C versions used

    both have prep time 

    speed is you know

    Blue Blur:5

    Skeleton Dude:3

    McQueen:7

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    • Oh nice, time to see how Archie Sonic does vs Castlevania.

      Right so I'm guessing Sword of Acorns is restricted, can Death cope with Sonic's Fate Manip?

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    • Probably not

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    • Well I no next to nothing about Archie Sonic aside from that meme, Death of course sports his own but I'm not sure if it stacks up or not. Can Sonic do anything about Mid Godly regen?

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    • Probably not 

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    • Well chalk me down for Inconclusive, Death can't prevent "Lol Fate Manip." but if Sonic can't deal with the Regen then its seems like Incon for me.

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    • Inconclusive FRA

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    • Inconclusive FRA

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    • Inconclusive FRA

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    • So what is stopping Death from just incapping through AP or some of his abilities? Becaue from what I've seen in multiple threads, his fate hax doesn't stop incap. There's also Sonic not being able to negate his regen. 

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    • What’s Death’s incap?

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    • AP advantage, Mind, Willpower, and Soul Manipulation are ways he could incap. Until I see Sonic's resistance potency to Mind and Soul Manipulation, then Death can freely use them.

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    • Sonic resist Soul manipulation and Mindhax and has an breakable will. Sonic also resist magic.

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    • To what degree? Death's is superior to people who's Soul and Mind Manip bypasses resistances to both, and Death's Willpower Manip weakens the faith of Humanity on a planetary scale.

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    • Because everything Sonic has was bumped up to Low 2-C resistance, beyond what humanity has taken.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Because everything Sonic has was bumped up to Low 2-C resistance, beyond what humanity has taken.

      Thats not how hax works, it doesn't scale to your ap and dura. His resistances are the exact same when he was tier 4.

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    • His AP was bumped to low 2-C, not his resistances. You need to prove that all of them are on a low 2-C scale, and I said his Willpower Manip weakens Humanity's faith on a planetary scale. Both his Soul and Mind manip scale above people who can affect others with those hax, and said characters resist the Castle's effects, which is on a 4D scale. So even if his resistances were on a Low 2-C scale, Death would still bypass.

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      • He resisted Magic from a sorcerer who’s magic was used to create and expand a pocket dimension to the size of universe, giving the magic Low 2-C status.
      • He resisted MindHax from another being superior to the sorcerer who used mindhax on his friends and Sonic but didn’t work on Sonic. And another mindhax that effected a 2-A being.
      • And he resisted Soul hax from multiversal + level of reality warping.
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    • Magic is literally a broad term for hax, all that gives is unspecified resistance to magic, and I already told you Death's abilities bypass 4D hax resistance.

      >Mind haxing a 2-A being doesn't mean anything unless you prove that character's resistance already.

      >Show said Reality Warping working on a multiversal+ scale and affecting souls.

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    • • That's again AP.

      • Cal and Al both were only accepted to have baseline mindhax for effecting Sonic and Tails. Dr Fintiveus' Hex is also baseline since Knuckles was affected while trying to access the Master Emerald. I should know, I'm the one who made the thread for it.

      • His resistance to Soul Manip comes from the Mecha Madness fiasco.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      • And he resisted Soul hax from multiversal + level of reality warping.

      This was something he did in his Super Form, not his Base Form. Enerjak literally affected him with soul hax in the Dark Mobius reality with the prelates, so I'm not sure what else you're scaling a resistance off of.

      Also, siding with Death for some of the reasons presented above. At worst, this is an incon because Sonic has no good way of putting Death down.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:
      • And he resisted Soul hax from multiversal + level of reality warping.

      This was something he did in his Super Form, not his Base Form. Enerjak literally affected him with soul hax in the Dark Mobius reality with the prelates, so I'm not sure what else you're scaling a resistance off of.

      Wrong. That Sonic was not Prime multiverse Sonic. Prime multiverse Sonic is the only one with these abilities, as Scourge, Evil Sonic from another universe, does not have these haxes.

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote:

      >Show said Reality Warping working on a multiversal+ scale and affecting souls.

      Showed having his soul and FateHax being intended to be rewritten on a universal scale, later shown that same reality warping could effect Megaman’s and Sonic’s at the same time. But.. you know... it didn’t work.

      62640350-A304-4D6D-86E1-57CF068D8546

      SGW effected Sonic and Megaman’s infinite multiverse, with certain Sonic’s souls not being affected (the game characters).

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    • ....But they were affected. Post Genesis Reality is the result of them being affected, not to mention he was in his Super State. Eggman made Sonic screw up Chaos Control and Post Genesis was the result. Sonic himself didn't even get his memories back until he touched Nicole, who had excess energy. And not to mention Genesis Sonic was affected. He had no idea who Sally and co. were until he was about to RW the world back to normal and even moreso, that wasn't universal. That was Planetary.


      Also we don't scale other resistances from Reality Warping. You can resist Reality Warp without resisting Soul Manipulation and vice versa.

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    • 🙄

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    • What does realities mean to you? Cause Dio, a space robot, was effected by the Genesis wave, despite being light years away from the planet. Oh, and the Genesis wave without being Super is 4D.

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    • Yeah, I read it. Tails only remember after touching Nicole. Sonic never needed to. The “kid” means Megaman.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Yeah, I read it. Tails only remember after touching Nicole. Sonic never needed to.

      Because of the excess energy. Which Sonic and Naugus also had. Which also faded, as even Sonic clearly remembers the new reality and is the reason they don't say anything about it later on.

      What does realities mean to you? Cause Dio, a space robot, was effected by the Genesis wave, despite being light years away from the planet. Oh, and the Genesis wave without being Super is 4D.

      I'm talking about the Genesis Wave, that Eggman performed with one Emerald. It's planetary. The Super Genesis Wave is what affected Sonic and Mega Man's Worlds. And dude Reality Warping in general is 4-D...

      Also Pre Genesis Sonic and Post Genesis Sonic don't share abilities. Anything Post Gen gets deals with Post Gen only amd vice versa.

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    • Archie Sonic remembered pre-Genesis history and what happen in worlds Collide at the same time without needing to touch Nicole. Just like he did after the first Genesis wave. And manipulating memories is not the same as manipulating spirit.

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    • Hst master wrote: What does realities mean to you? Cause Dio, a space robot, was effected by the Genesis wave, despite being light years away from the planet. Oh, and the Genesis wave without being Super is 4D.

      I'm talking about the Genesis Wave, that Eggman performed with one Emerald. It's planetary. The Super Genesis Wave is what affected Sonic and Mega Man's Worlds. And dude Reality Warping in general is 4-D...

      I only see One Emerald being used here before the SGW

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Archie Sonic remembered pre-Genesis history and what happen in worlds Collide at the same time without needing to touch Nicole. Just like he did after the first Genesis wave. And manipulating memories is not the same as manipulating spirit.

      https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Sonic-The-Hedgehog/Issue-226?id=20203

      He had no idea who Sally and co were after the 1st wave.

      And again, we don't scale other resistances from Reality Warping. And yet again Post Gen Sonic doesn't share resistances with Pre Gen. Along with Tails literally saying that nicole retained the energy from the old reality and that Sonic was at the epicenter unlike everyone else sans Nicole.

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    • And yet again he was in his Super State when everything went down. Not base.

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    • So what I'm getting from everything relevant for base Sonic, the Genesis Wave was on a planetary scale with a single emerald, and base Sonic was unaffected by it?

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    • ^ go back to talking about the image I sent about one Chaos emeralds effecting more than a planet. Cause Dio was effected, despite being light years away.

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      And in the very same thing he says it only has one emerald. Refferring to the 1st Genesis Wave, after he shot Sally Down. Mega's Universe wasn't affected by that in the slightest. Not to mention Shadow's Chaos Control even messes with Reality slightly when he teleports during Worlds Collide thanks to the backlash of the Genesis Waves.

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: So what I'm getting from everything relevant for base Sonic, the Genesis Wave was on a planetary scale with a single emerald, and base Sonic was unaffected by it?

      He was, that was the entire events of Genesis. He had no idea who Sally, Antoine and Boomer/Rotor were.

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    • The 1st Genesis wave didn’t need to focus on anything beyond the planet. The second Genesis wave showed off its true range, even creating the wisps.

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    • Shadow’s teleportation disrupted a pocket dimension, not either of the universes.

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    • So the first Genesis Wave was used with a single emerald, and the Super one with all seven, correct? If the second one needed all seven emeralds just to affect the multiverse, then you'd need to prove a single one has the same range as all seven because all I saw was a single one altering the history of a planet.

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    • Sonic’s memory being effected was not permanent. He resisted it.

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: So the first Genesis Wave was used with a single emerald, and the Super one with all seven, correct? If the second one needed all seven emeralds just to affect the multiverse, then you'd need to prove a single one has the same range as all seven because all I saw was a single one altering the history of a planet.

      Omg. One emerald effect two universes. Changed the history of one universe (Sonic, including the creation of the wisps) and pushing Megaman’s universe into the future (as the events of Megaman take place across the universe with Dio’s, the space cop alien that fights evil energy, story.)

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    • https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Sonic-Universe/Issue-51?id=21691

      Affected the second time too.

      And that's not resistance, that's a flaw in the GW, since everyone started slowly remembering. Even Eggman blatantly does right in the same scan.

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    • I read it. You keep showing the exact same scan, and nowhere does it state Megaman's world was effected too, or creation of wisps. Actually show the scan, because I don't read Archie Sonic and I'm don't going to take your word for it without evidence.

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: I read it. You keep showing the exact same scan, and nowhere does it state Megaman's world was effected too, or creation of wisps. Actually show the scan, because I don't read Archie Sonic and I'm don't going to take your word for it without evidence.

      Wisp didn’t exist in Archie’s lore before the 2nd regular Genesis wave. How do I show a scan of the Wisp not existing before the 2nd Genesis wave?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Uh, what? Your comment legit made no sense.

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    • “Press the Cosmic Reset button, doctor, our realities will be reshaped and primed for our conquest.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Uh, what? Your comment legit made no sense.

      What is not making sense?

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    • Wisp didn’t exist in Archie’s lore before the 2nd regular Genesis wave. How do I show a scan of the Wisp not existing before the 2nd Genesis wave?

      They didn't exist after the second one either. It's the Super Genesis Wave that brought them into the Post Genesis Continuity as it's more closely aligned with the games instead of just throwing them into the "Another Side Another Story" short stories they used to do.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Your comment about it not being the Prime Zone. That was Prime Zone Sonic, just within a different reality.

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    • Hst master wrote: Wisp didn’t exist in Archie’s lore before the 2nd regular Genesis wave. How do I show a scan of the Wisp not existing before the 2nd Genesis wave?

      They didn't exist after the second one either. It's the Super Genesis Wave that brought them into the Post Genesis Continuity as it's more closely aligned with the games instead of just throwing them into the "Another Side Another Story" short stories they used to do.

      And by doing that, the Genesis wave created the Wisp. And before you say “perhaps it took them to another universe in the multiverse”:

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      Wisps that didn’t appear in the Prime zone now exist after the 2nd regular Genesis wave. Why are we going back and forth on this?

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Your comment about it not being the Prime Zone. That was Prime Zone Sonic, just within a different reality.

      If it’s in a different reality, it’s a different Sonic, not Prime Sonic. Prime Sonic effected directly by the Genesis wave is still the same Sonic, branching timelines and different realities aren’t Prime Sonic.

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    • And i’m going to bed.

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    • Oh yeah, I would like to add you're literally just showing Memory Manipulation resistance through the Genesis Wave, not Mind Manipulation. Hell, I'm looking at the Sonic Wikia for Archie right now and the scale seems irrelevant because it seems to just blockade memories rather than outright erase them. That's far below what Death's mind hax does in its effects and Memory Manipulation is just a subset of Mind Manipulation. Arguing that you resist Mind Manipulation from this would legit be like arguing you resist Conceptual Manipulation automatically because you resist a form of Reality Warping.

      "The Genesis Wave also cannot completely erase old memories. A regular Genesis Wave for example often leaving the affected inhabitants with amnesia or senses of deja vu." - https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Genesis_Wave

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Hst master wrote: Wisp didn’t exist in Archie’s lore before the 2nd regular Genesis wave. How do I show a scan of the Wisp not existing before the 2nd Genesis wave?

      They didn't exist after the second one either. It's the Super Genesis Wave that brought them into the Post Genesis Continuity as it's more closely aligned with the games instead of just throwing them into the "Another Side Another Story" short stories they used to do.

      And by doing that, the Genesis wave created the Wisp. And before you say “perhaps it took them to another universe in the multiverse”:

      943D7C41-8669-4915-8DB3-E7FFE9673A3B

      Wisps that didn’t appear in the Prime zone now exist after the 2nd regular Genesis wave. Why are we going back and forth on this?

      Dude that says literally nothing about the wisp at all. He's talking about the very 1st genesis wave that Eggman did. Again the Post Genesis Reality is where they are acknowledged and is the continuity they are apart of.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Uh, Prime Sonic would be the Mobius Prime one. There are two outcomes from that timeline that still involve Prime Sonic, which is Light Mobius and Dark Mobius. Those are effectively still the same Sonic.

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    • K, so I'm just going to assume it affected both universes since this is getting derailed from the actual debate.

      The scan for Sonic resisting the Genesis Wave, he was still affected, along with everyone. That's literally a limitation of what it can do, and as it was already pointed out, people would've regained their memories. The range was was 4D, yeah whatever, still had a huge flaw when altering their memories. Death is still mind haxing him.

      Also, if this was taken as a full resistance, it's just resistance to Memory Manipulation, which is a subset of Mind Manipulating. I seriously wouldn't need to point out just how dumb trying to scale one sub set resistance of a hax to others would be.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Hst master wrote: Wisp didn’t exist in Archie’s lore before the 2nd regular Genesis wave. How do I show a scan of the Wisp not existing before the 2nd Genesis wave?

      They didn't exist after the second one either. It's the Super Genesis Wave that brought them into the Post Genesis Continuity as it's more closely aligned with the games instead of just throwing them into the "Another Side Another Story" short stories they used to do.

      And by doing that, the Genesis wave created the Wisp. And before you say “perhaps it took them to another universe in the multiverse”:

      943D7C41-8669-4915-8DB3-E7FFE9673A3B

      Wisps that didn’t appear in the Prime zone now exist after the 2nd regular Genesis wave. Why are we going back and forth on this?

      Dude that says literally nothing about the wisp at all. He's talking about the very 1st genesis wave that Eggman did. Again the Post Genesis Reality is where they are acknowledged and is the continuity they are apart of.

      That image was to prove all the reality warping happen in the prime zone. The image was to support the Wisp came from the Genesis wave, not from another reality. The Zonic didn’t need to mention the wisp.

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    • This is copied from this revision thread were the castle's affects were accepted since I'm not going to dig through enemy wiki descriptions.

      >Resistance to Mind, Soul Manipulation, Corruption, Transmutation and Posession: The Castle itself warps and corrupts the people's or animals minds and souls inside of it and its influence is the reason some enemies exist and fight against you: "transformed into a giant insect by exposure to castle's magic", "Transformed into a giant ghost by exposure to the castle's magic.", "A monstrous mollusk imbued with the castle's dark power.", "Local barnyard owl. Mutated by castle's influence." https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:2565574

      Death's Mind Manipulation >>> this. The castle literally turns things mindless, and makes them a slave to Dracula. That's more than Memory Manipulation, which Sonic "resists".

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    • @Elixir

      Dude don't start that. And again

      A. That doesn't prove that the entire universe was affected. That's literally just Zonic talking about the Genesis Wave.

      B. You post is blatantly having it where your using Zonic's statement as a reasoning for the wisps.

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    • I think I was in the wrong direction when forming my arguments here. I didn’t expect to have to prove the range on the Genesis Wave here.

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    • I’ve contacted some of the ones who made Sonic’s wiki to see if they come in a help out.

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    • Oh right. Here’s where the mind manipulation resistance comes from.

      Power Rings

      Sonic’s 1 Billionth Ring is a power ring Sonic is always carrying.

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    • To what scale? The castle contains the Abyss , where just one of its hells is an entire universe . Yeah, the castle's influence is ridiculously big lol.

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    • The first Genesis Wave was planetary, and, to my knowledge, was not an attempt to affect Sonic's soul, it was merely to rewind time to before he had collected so much chaos energy.
      The second Genesis Wave does effect all of Sonic and Megaman's realities, but Ian Flynn explained it was only able to do so due to it's location in the Skull Egg Zone and Wily and Eggman's combined genius .
      Shadow's teleportation disrupted the Skull Egg Zone because it was unstable.
      Sonic did not resist mind manipulation during Genesis, there was no mind manipulation to resist. Eggman reset time and Snively explains the spacetime continuum is trying to correct the change Eggman did which is the reason Sonic's memories return.
      Sonic is not always carrying his billionth ring, he keeps it mounted on his wall, he has to retrieve it.

      As for this vs, fate hax does not prevent Sonic from dying, he's died twice in the Prime timeline. do with that information what you will.

      I went over a lot, so I will retireve scans upon request.

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    • Make this a CRT before presenting the abilities in a vs thread because in these fights we go off info on the profiles.

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    • Alongside what Foney was saying, Sonic also died to Mephiles in '06, which you guys are treating as happening just like it did in the game. Evidenced by the fact that '06 is the only reason Super forms are immeasurable.

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    • ^ Still find that BS but whatever. I don't have the patience to deal with debating it.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Alongside what Foney was saying, Sonic also died to Mephiles in '06, which you guys are treating as happening just like it did in the game. Evidenced by the fact that '06 is the only reason Super forms are immeasurable.

      Guess we’re gonna ignore the whole Dimitri using Chaos Knuckles power to allow Knuckles to become Enerjak who would scale to his speed of being in a realm outside linear time and space.Also Ultra Sonic warps and alters time by movement alone.Master Mogul’s attacks can intercept and hit the Ancient Walkers who Super Sonic,Hyper Knuckles and Turbo Tails fought.

      Solaris isn’t the only reason for Immeasurable Super forms.

      I also have a huge problem with the 06 dying thing.I’ll bring it up of course if necessary in terms of a CRT.

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    • Except power =/= speed. Being empowered by CK doesn't make Knuckles Enerjak the speed of Chaos Knuckles in the same way as Pikachu being empowered by Groudon doesn't make Pikachu Groudon's speed. The Ultra Sonic thing isn't a quantifiable speed feat either. Not to mention none of that is on the profiles and it's all based on Solaris.

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    • "All based on Solaris"

      Lemme stop you there, Chief. Sonic moving fast enough to make Knothole travel several hours into the future by speed alone is an Immeasurable speed feat. And the sole reason it isn't on the profiles? I have a CRT prepped and ready to go after all this Game Sonic business is over.

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    • >Master Mogul is literally used as one of his reasons on his profile which you never addressed.

      >False,this is chaos energy we’re talking about which is know to amp everything they have.Aurora gained the power of the Chaos Force she became in a state beyond time and space and so did Chaos Knuckles.If this same energy allowed Chaos Knuckles to gain such power to become one with the Chaos Force why wouldn’t it effect Enerjak’s speed especially when his true form exists within it and his avatar is derived from Chaos Knuckles own power that allowed him to become outside time and space.

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    • @Shake. No, it's time travel, either throw powers or through going FTL. Unless you're saying the Powerpuff Girls and some random meteor from Courage are immeasurable for doing something similar. I literally just downgraded IDW Discord for doing this. The "travelling through time through sheer speed" is so scrutinized as a feat that it will almost never be added without caveats.

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    • @Oblivion. Ah so you're saying Super Sonic and the crew all exist in the Chaos Force. Because that's the only way what you're saying make sense. Mammoth Mogul only has reasoning for Omnipresent, not immeasurable. That's just blank.

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    • "Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

      Oh, really? This is what the speed page itself says under Note 5, I'm just going by the page.

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    • Yeah. Really. Read everything after the first line, not the bits that support your argument. Is Flash immeasurable? How bout SA Superman? Again, Discord? No?

      (No hard feelings of course. You're still my dude, Shake. Even when I'm being confrontational.)

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    • >No they simply scale off beings who are one with the Chaos Force.

      >Tagging the Ancient Walkers with the last of his energy from his 1st Tenure form allows him to scale.This reason should probably be added.His omnipresence comes from his 2nd tenure form.

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    • No, what I'm doing is correcting your flawed argument. You say it isn't possible. The page says it is. This isn't even about Sonic's feat anymore as much as it is about the standards in general. I'm not ignorant, Cal.

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    • @Oblivion. The Ancient Walkers were dying already and were heavily weakened. There's no reason for them to scale for the same reason Thor doesn't scale to peak Galactus. You don't scale to beings that are already on death's door when you fight them.

      The cast never fight Chaos Knuckles, Aurora, or True Enerjak. They don't scale to Chaos Force beings, especially given it causes insane circular scaling (Super Sonic = Hyper Knuckles <<<<< Chaos Knuckles = Super Sonic).

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    • Okay wait, I seem like an asshole here. I apologize, more attitude and sass is escaping than what should be lol

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    • ShakeResounding wrote: No, what I'm doing is correcting your flawed argument. You say it isn't possible. The page says it is. This isn't even about Sonic's feat anymore as much as it is about the standards in general. I'm not ignorant, Cal.

      Yeah. I brought up that the standards were flawed in the Discord thread. Discord the character, not the website. Not to mention that neither of us can name a single character that's immeasurable off of that alone.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote: Okay wait, I seem like an asshole here. I apologize, more attitude and sass is escaping than what should be lol

      No worries, my dude. It's just a debate. Fictional characters. Even if we wound up getting riled up at one another, we'd wind up putting it behind us in a matter of hours.

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    • Not to be that guy, but how am I supposed to know that you questioned the standards themselves? If you mentioned it earlier, I wouldn't have even argued as to why you were saying that!

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    • The real cal howard wrote: @Oblivion. The Ancient Walkers were dying already and were heavily weakened. There's no reason for them to scale for the same reason Thor doesn't scale to peak Galactus. You don't scale to beings that are already on death's door when you fight them.

      The cast never fight Chaos Knuckles, Aurora, or True Enerjak. They don't scale to Chaos Force beings, especially given it causes insane circular scaling (Super Sonic = Hyper Knuckles <<<<< Chaos Knuckles = Super Sonic).

      No...

      >Mammoth Mogul’s 1st Tenure blow was what fatally wounded them which eventually they were killed by the Arachnid tribe using the Sword of Acorns to free Ixis due to the dimensional shift that pushed the Walkers past their limit which killed them.The Ancient Walkers were fine before being fatally wounded by Mogul.

      >Chaos Knuckles = Enerjak >(by not much)Super Sonic = Hyper Knuckles

      Keep in mind that Sonic was winning against Enerjak due to his aura progressively weakening him.Also Chaos Force entities aren’t portrayed as being infinitely superior to super forms as Master Mogul who had Enerjak’s power was able to severely damage the Ancient Walkers who were cited to be equal in power to Chaos Knuckles.

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    • Simple. Because The real cal howard is the epitome of a dummy lol

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    • So is Archie Sonic scaling in general but anyway....

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    • Mogul wounding the walkers was retconed to taking place after he had also entered the Chaos Force. The triple threat doesn't scale.

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    • Proof of this?

      Because if so that completely contradicts what we’ve seen in the comic.Because the moment Mogul broke free he used the last of his power from his 1st Tenure form to wound the Walkers.

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    • It's consistantly placed after Mogul steal's Chaos Knuckle's power in the encyclopedia (Mogul and the Walker's pages and the timeline) making it an intentional change to the lore. The change was done to improve consistancey, if Mogul wounded them during his first tenure the triple threat scales above the walkers which is ridiculous.

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    • They would still scale however.

      >Note that Chaos Knuckles’s power was necessary to create the “new” Enerjak.This is the same power that granted Mogul the ability to tag the Walkers in the first place.

      >No the Super forms in no way are superior to Chaos Force beings however they are comparable as they would just scale below them.Not to mention Sonic’s aura was slowly but surely weakening Enerjak’s power.Hell the echidnas believed Turbo Tails would have the power to counter Chaos Knuckles.

      >My scaling never involved the Ancient Walkers scaling below Super forms.

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    • Sonic is not comparable to Enerjak, Knuckles was massively weakened when he fought him and they were fighting evenly. Sonic says his aura is making progress against "the dark magic" meaning Finitvus' hex not Enerjak himself.

      If Mogul was able to mortally wound the walkers but not the triple threat, they would scale above them, hence why the time Mogul wounds them was moved.

      I know you didn't scale super forms above the walkers, but that is how they scale if Mogul's first tenure wounds the walkers.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote: 1st Tenure form allows him to scale.This reason should probably be added.His omnipresence comes from his 2nd tenure form.

      The real cal howard wrote: @Oblivion. The Ancient Walkers were dying already and were heavily weakened. There's no reason for them to scale for the same reason Thor doesn't scale to peak Galactus. You don't scale to beings that are already on death's door when you fight them.

      Ok, time to be the scan guy again. The Ancient Walkers were healthy and fine and not at Death’s door till Mogul broke out of the freshly, made Master Emerald.

      3A9C5A11-6C22-460A-8AF3-FB97179D0AB1
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    • Hm. I guess it was a recon, though it’s strange that same recon never mentioned the Ancient Walker’s death or the lost of the Source of All or mention Knuckles coming back from the dead.

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    • There's too much information to be all put into the timeline. All of those things are mentioned on the character's pages.

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    • ElixirBlue
      ElixirBlue removed this reply because:
      Removing for jumping the gun again
      07:41, November 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • ElixirBlue
      ElixirBlue removed this reply because:
      Removing myself from derailment
      07:40, November 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • And if all of this is true, how did Super Sonic preform a feat greater than Master Mogul with the SGW?

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: Sonic is not comparable to Enerjak, Knuckles was massively weakened when he fought him and they were fighting evenly. Sonic says his aura is making progress against "the dark magic" meaning Finitvus' hex not Enerjak himself.

      If Mogul was able to mortally wound the walkers but not the triple threat, they would scale above them, hence why the time Mogul wounds them was moved.

      I know you didn't scale super forms above the walkers, but that is how they scale if Mogul's first tenure wounds the walkers.

      >No,Enerjak flat out said he couldn’t destroy Super Sonic by any means.Super Sonic’s aura was weakening Enerjak’s control over Knuckles but only by a little bit it was neutralizing Enerjak’s dark energy it’s not just DR Finitivus’d hex because he neutralized Finitvus’s hex immediately when becoming Super but Enerjak’s resists his aura which is why it only slightly nulled Enerjak.Keep in mind Sonic was also not going all out because he didn’t want to kill Knuckles in the first place.Super Sonic had the upper hand and was ultimately taunting and teasing Enerjak while Enerjak was enfuriated.This site accepts the two as comparable.The entire fight in the context has the two on equal grounds Enerjak being weakened and Super Sonic toying around and not wanting to kill Knuckles.If he really just wanted to kill Knuckles he could have just lol erased him with Chaos Control.Enerjak is superior but not immensely stronger than Super Sonic.Super Sonic however still scales from Enerjak/Chaos Knuckles.

      >I accepted that.Still doesn’t disprove my reasons for them scaling below but still scaling to Chaos Force beings.Master Mogul 1st Tenure wasn’t superior to each of them combined.All he did was just knock them away.A single hit from Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles sent him flying back.Master Mogul is superior due to having Enerjak’s power which should by default be over Super Sonic but Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles were still able to harm and contend against Master Mogul despite being weaker.

      >Also massive derail take it to my wall if you want to continue this discussion.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: And if all of this is true, how did Super Sonic preform a feat greater than Master Mogul with the SGW?

      Oh boy I have tons of stuff on the Wave to say on Discord I can explain in VC as here is not the best time.Ask me anything and I can answer in VC to make things easier.

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    • wait doesn't soulhax bypass Sonic's fatehax?

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    • Sonic """"dying"""" happened of screen and we don't even know how nor why, and even in the original game Elise says that Sonic's Spirit was still alive by felling the wind, trying to say type 8 isn't legit because of this is wrong

      And this entire discussion is derail, make a CRT to fix those stuff

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    • Foxthefox1000 wrote: ^ Still find that BS but whatever. I don't have the patience to deal with debating it.

      Stop calling things wank or BS if you can't debate on why

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Okay, this is derailing first off Cal. This has absolutely no relation to the thread. Regardless, I will correct a way problems here. First off, PPG doing that feat is explained in-universe by an old theory that was that travelling at FTL speeds allowed them to Time Travel. This is such a ridiculous False Equivalency that I'm not sure why such a comparison is being made. As for Courage, that wasn't accounted for as that's the way we treat cartoon profiles. SpongeBob isn't Infinite MFTL+ - Infinite for a similar reason as they are gag feats. The feat Shake is citing doesn't even come from the earlier parts of the Comic so you can't discredit it as such. Again, another False Equivalence.

      As for Superman and Flash, I'm rather sure they get such a note for a reason stated in-universe for DC. That or the fact they don't show such a level consistently enough for it to apply to Combat Speed. That's just due to the thousands of feats of feats they have to catalog unlike Archie, the standards for the scaling is treated most differently than a lot of characters on the site.

      I'd have to check the Discord thread, but your proposition of it just coming from travelling FTL? Absolutely not. There are multiple moments Sonic travels faster than light with it even being acknowledged as such in the Comic, not even just calcs. There were no such adverse effects happening when he did those feats. It would be absolutely ludicrous to say that those ideas of traveling at FTL speeds get retconned but reimplemented also right after. If you have a problem, bring it up on the thread when it comes up. I will gladly take this there when it is made.

      The topic now is Sonic vs Death, not his speed.

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    • bump

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    • bump

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    • Inconclusive FRA

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    • Incon FRA

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    • Inconclusive FRA 

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    • Thunder Mcqueen FRA

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    • I'm late, but grace has begun.

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    • The arguments for an inconclusive haven't addressed Death's AP advantage, soul manip, mind manip, and willpower manip hax for an incap.

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: The arguments for an inconclusive haven't addressed Death's AP advantage, soul manip, mind manip, and willpower manip hax for an incap.

      Sonic casually resists Mind manipulation from two Concepts with his will power after a moment.

      D7027A93-4C14-492F-A87C-400E722C0252
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    • Sonic also scales above the Destructix, who resisted the soul manipulation from the Egg Grapes, without Mogul.

      DBCEB847-964C-4E50-9490-8E1B3672C4D0
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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: The arguments for an inconclusive haven't addressed Death's AP advantage, soul manip, mind manip, and willpower manip hax for an incap.

      >Sonic resists like all of that and we also haven’t addressed how Sonic can just lol 2-A null with a ring after a while or how the nature of his Fatehax just allows him to win but Incon FRA.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      >Sonic resists like all of that and we also haven’t addressed how Sonic can just lol 2-A null with a ring after a while or how the nature of his Fatehax just allows him to win but Incon FRA.

      What wincon Death has here then?

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    • Jfc, we literally went over multiple times in this thread the potency of Death's hax. Death's Mind Manip >>>> characters who can mind hax people who resists the castle's affects, which is 4D in scale. His Soul Manip is upscaled from the castle's, which again, has 4D scale Soul Manip.

      The first scans you showed literally still had Sonic mind haxed, and he only got out of it by seeing Tails, that's a garbage resistance. Your second scan doesn't even mention or reference soul destruction, and you have no proof for Sonic getting upscaled to that resistance other then "he's stronger than it", which is not how gaining a resistance works 90% the time.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      >Sonic resists like all of that and we also haven’t addressed how Sonic can just lol 2-A null with a ring after a while or how the nature of his Fatehax just allows him to win but Incon FRA.

      Show how he even resists the hax I showed on Death's scale, and show how the Power Ring nulls on a 2-A scale and fate hax doesnt stop an incap.

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    • 66B63BFC-9594-4E8F-AB94-5232C4A525EC

      The Egg Grapes with Soul Manipulation effected...

      80801CF5-0D42-4325-B06F-693152CB3286

      This guy who is above Death and is 4D...

      DF1D27EB-073F-4950-B054-8DB7F3E97333

      nd could’ve effected this guy if he stopped actively resisting the Soul Manipulation

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    • Oh cool, so it's still below Death's potency, and being 4D doesn't suddenly mean all your hax are on that scale until you prove otherwise. You've still yet to prove a single thing.

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    • Is Death 2-A?

      TheSpeedster96 wrote: Oh cool, so it's still below Death's potency, and being 4D doesn't suddenly mean all your hax are on that scale until you prove otherwise. You've still yet to prove a single thing.

      Um, I said the Egg Grapes effected a 4D being, not that the Egg Grapes are 4D and the Destructix, with no special powers, resisted it. And they scale below Sonic.

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    • Then you should've explained it better. Uh when was affecting a 4D character making your hax 4D? That's entirely different than being on a 4D scale, and that's never been a thing on Vs wiki. You also yet to prove how Sonic resists Soul Manip othe then "he's above the character", because that's not how gaining a resistance works 90% of the time.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Sonic doesn't resist the effects of the Egg Grapes in his Base Form. He was never in there and you can't just say he has a resistance because "Oh well he's stronger than them". That is not the reasoning he has a resistance for it on the profile and it was only agreed it applies to the Super Forms. What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous and has no support of evidence supporting it AT ALL.

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    • Dude, calm down. Yes, I should have worded my statement better. But the Egg Grapes effected (and killed in a genocide way) hundred of civilians who died from the Egg Grapes, to making an immortal/greatest sorcerer in Mobius history scared to not actively resist them, to a 2-A, 4D God.

      But the Destructix manage to resist them. The same Destructix who can very much give Sonic a hard time other than Naugus, Mogul, Eggman. But the Destructix don’t have anything different from Sonic, other than they can still tag them.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Sonic doesn't resist the effects of the Egg Grapes in his Base Form. He was never in there and you can't just say he has a resistance because "Oh well he's stronger than them". That is not the reasoning he has a resistance for it on the profile and it was only agreed it applies to the Super Forms. What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous and has no support of evidence supporting it AT ALL.

      Why are you shouting?

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: Jfc, we literally went over multiple times in this thread the potency of Death's hax. Death's Mind Manip >>>> characters who can mind hax people who resists the castle's affects, which is 4D in scale. His Soul Manip is upscaled from the castle's, which again, has 4D scale Soul Manip.

      The first scans you showed literally still had Sonic mind haxed, and he only got out of it by seeing Tails, that's a garbage resistance. Your second scan doesn't even mention or reference soul destruction, and you have no proof for Sonic getting upscaled to that resistance other then "he's stronger than it", which is not how gaining a resistance works 90% the time.

      >Sonic resisted Mindhax in base from Enerjak that work effectively on a 2-A scale.

      >The One Billionth Power Ring which grants him his Fatehax that can effect 2-As retains it also his spiritual essence which also works on a 2-A scale as relative to all the effects of the One Billionth Power Ring work.

      >Sonic can null with a power ring which he uses in character when he has it on him.The rings null has shown to work on beings as powerful as Ugly Nagus who is 2-A.

      All of his resistances I mentioned are listed on his profile and work on a 2-A degree.

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    • Also is Death’s powers magic based?

      If so Sonic pretty much stops due to passive 2-A Magic negation from negating Finitivus’s hex on the Master Emerald.

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    • I am calm, and that's just empowerment. That doesn't remotely make the Soul Manip 4D in poteny. No ones saying the Destructix didn't resist it, you just can't resistance scale someone to a character because they're stronger. That's never been a thing.

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    • ^Agreed that argument doesn’t make much sense to scale resistances you someone just because they’re stronger.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Why are you shouting?

      Because you're spreading misinformation and have done so multiple times on this thread. I'm making a point to you.

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    • "Sonic resisted Mindhax in base from Enerjak that work effectively on a 2-A scale."

      Show the scan of it working on a 2-A scale, because from what I've seen, it comes from haxing 2-As, which doesn't remotely put your hax on that scale and it's flawed logic.

      "The One Billionth Power Ring which grants him his Fatehax that can effect 2-As retains it also his spiritual essence which also works on a 2-A scale as relative to all the effects of the One Billionth Power Ring work."

      Still waiting for the 2-A scale scan.

      "Sonic can null with a power ring which he uses in character when he has it on him.The rings null has shown to work on beings as powerful as Ugly Nagus who is 2-A."

      Flaw logic, your tiering is entirely irrelevant to your hax unless you show said hax already working on that scale.

      "All of his resistances I mentioned are listed on his profile and work on a 2-A degree."

      Read above.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote: Why are you shouting?

      Because you're spreading misinformation and have done so multiple times on this thread. I'm making a point to you.

      Well, good. I know I was going in the wrong direction but I couldn’t figure out/remember which resistance came from what. I was waiting for someone with knowledge to jump in and correct me.

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    • @TheSpeedster96 Actually, can we see scans of Death’s manipulations?

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: "Sonic resisted Mindhax in base from Enerjak that work effectively on a 2-A scale."

      Show the scan of it working on a 2-A scale, because from what I've seen, it comes from haxing 2-As, which doesn't remotely put your hax on that scale and it's flawed logic.

      "The One Billionth Power Ring which grants him his Fatehax that can effect 2-As retains it also his spiritual essence which also works on a 2-A scale as relative to all the effects of the One Billionth Power Ring work."

      Still waiting for the 2-A scale scan.

      "Sonic can null with a power ring which he uses in character when he has it on him.The rings null has shown to work on beings as powerful as Ugly Nagus who is 2-A."

      Flaw logic, your tiering is entirely irrelevant to your hax unless you show said hax already working on that scale.

      "All of his resistances I mentioned are listed on his profile and work on a 2-A degree."

      Read above.

      >Here it states that his One Billionth Power Ring restores his spiritual self protecting him from any effects on his soul.

      https://i.imgur.com/2n0YuIf.jpg

      >Here Sonic resists Enerjak’s mindhax which turned Knuckles into his avatar.

      https://i.imgur.com/mMzimnj.jpg

      >Abilities granted by the One Billionth Power Ring can work on Master Mogul in both Tenure forms.Not to mention the Ancient Walkers who are from a 2-A Type 2 concept granted him this ring which has shown to have effect on Enerjak despite resisting said abilities.

      https://i.imgur.com/Yx7CGgX.png

      >Here Sonic’s aura granted by the ring works on Enerjak

      https://i.imgur.com/puvCjmd.jpg

      >Nate Morgan used powernull that stripped Ugly Nagus of his powers it’s shown on the Ring’s profile.Sonic can also use the rings for wishing prowess as well.

      https://i.imgur.com/iTEeX2H.jpg

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote: Also is Death’s powers magic based?

      If so Sonic pretty much stops due to passive 2-A Magic negation from negating Finitivus’s hex on the Master Emerald.

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    • https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Giant_Ghost "Transformed into a giant ghost by exposure to the castle's magic."

      https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Owl "Local barnyard owl. Mutated by castle's influence."

      https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Mollusca "A monstrous mollusk imbued with the castle's dark power."

      https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Underground_Reservoir/Enemy_Data "Transformed into a giant insect by exposure to castle's magic."

      The castle warps the minds, souls, and transmutes whoever enters it. Castle contains multiple space-times due to one of the hells in the Abyss being universal in size. Death steals Walter's soul, and he scales above Shaft who mind haxed Richter, both of them being able to resist the castle's effects.

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    • Is it all magic?

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    • Yes, and Death already resists Power Null on a conceptual scale from the Vampire Killer.

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    • Sonic stomps then.

      Passive 2-A magic negation.

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    • Still waiting for the 2-A scale negation scan, because I can already see it's not on a 2-A scale.

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    • Disprove it being so and I showed the scan already.

      Also this site already accepts him negating magic on a 2-A degree.If you disagree with it make a CRT to change it.

      Sonic even days he’ll neutralize Finitvus’s magic which corrupted Chaos Knuckles whom is 2-A which allowed Enerjak to take control of him.

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    • Link the thread where it was accepted as nullying on a 2-A scale, because I can just tell it's based on just nullying a 2-A=nullying 2-A scale hax.

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    • It was accepted long ago, it has been already treated as such in all of his matches, it comes from him being able to take on 2-A hax with multiple feats and lore.

      But if you want "actual" scans, I would ask Maverick Zero X to comment here.

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    • Fine then, but I still don't see it as legit because of that reasoning. I'll vote inconclusive then, but Death wins if optional equipment is disabled.

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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote:
      but Death wins if optional equipment is disabled.

      Sonic fatehaxes anyways

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    • wasn't Enerjak able to bypass Sonic's fatehax anyhow?

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    • Changing my vote for Sonic FRA

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    • Genericstickman wrote: wasn't Enerjak able to bypass Sonic's fatehax anyhow?

      No one in the series has except for The Super Genesis Wave which was caused by Sonic.

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    • in Dark Mobius Dark E

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    • nerjak was able to beat and capture sonic

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    • That was an alternate version of Sonic who’s far weaker because Prime Sonic is actually the strongest Sonic and the only Sonic we know that has the OBPR is Prime Sonic.Dark Mobius Sonic obviously doesn’t have Fatehax.

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    • Death FRA

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    • You must not have been paying attention to this thread

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    • Anyways, voting for Sonic FRA.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • Sonic isn't resisting mind hax from Enerjak in that scan, the ring aura's protecting him from Finitivus' hex. It also didn't negate the hex, it only protected himself from it, the Master Emerald and Knuckles were still hexed.

      I'm also fairly certain Enerjak only took over regular Knuckles with Finitivus comparing the power to Chaos Knuckles. In any case Finitivus already had control of Knuckles in base if he did become Chaos Knuckles. Regardless, it was only because of Finitivus' hex that allowed Enerjak to take over, it took him years to corrupt Chaos Knuckles on Dark Mobius and he didn't take full control until Knuckles let him.

      It's also not his ring aura that's affecting Knuckles Enerjak, it's the possitive aspect of him being Super Sonic.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • Death FRA

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: Sonic isn't resisting mind hax from Enerjak in that scan, the ring aura's protecting him from Finitivus' hex. It also didn't negate the hex, it only protected himself from it, the Master Emerald and Knuckles were still hexed.

      I'm also fairly certain Enerjak only took over regular Knuckles with Finitivus comparing the power to Chaos Knuckles. In any case Finitivus already had control of Knuckles in base if he did become Chaos Knuckles. Regardless, it was only because of Finitivus' hex that allowed Enerjak to take over, it took him years to corrupt Chaos Knuckles on Dark Mobius and he didn't take full control until Knuckles let him.

      It's also not his ring aura that's affecting Knuckles Enerjak, it's the possitive aspect of him being Super Sonic.

      >Ok?.....like you said the Ring protects Sonic from the mind hax thus Sonic resists it due to the protection the ring grants him.It negating the hex doesn’t matter here,what matters is Sonic is protected from it.

      >Wrong,Finitivus says “you’ve had this power before” clearly stating that it’s Chaos Knuckles’s power not just Base Knuckles.Again what your saying is irrelevant as the hex allowed Enerjak to take over Knuckles whom had Chaos Knuckles’s power which is 2-A.Knuckles accepted Enerjak when Finitivus tells him to be more than a guardian and gain the power of the gods and even acknowledges Enerjak’s name.

      >I included that to prove Sonic’s passives work on a 2-A scale

      >Also I’m gonna day this polite as possible but I told you in the past that if you believe these abilities to be incorrect and fake make a CRT on it so it can be debated there.Also we go by what the profiles say and this downplay of abilities and denial of them won’t work without actual revisions made to the profile.

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    • Also Sonic FRA

      But I do think we hit Incon grace like yesterday

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    • Foney make the BONES pages already smh

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • I mean grace for Incon has ended

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    • Then this should be asked to be added to the versus thread additions

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    • Unlike Dark Enerjak, it's never clarified to us that he was Chaos Knuckles prior. The power they weild is virtually the same, Finitivus drawing a parallel between the virtual omnipotence of Chaos Knuckles and Enerjak doesn't definitively mean he was Chaos Knuckles. (this also begs the question, if he was Chaos Knuckles why would he need Enerjak? We don't see a substantial power increase) Regardless, Finitivus took over base Knuckles, as soon as he tapped into the Master Emerald's power, he fell to the hex.

      There isn't a precident that being more powerful improves their resistance to mind hax. Finitivus still had control after Knuckles became Enerjak, even if he was Chaos Knuckles, there's no reason Finitivus wouldn't still have control. Furthermore, Enerjak taking over Knuckles is not impressive since, due to the hex, he actively let him do it. Sonic's mind was altered by Cal and a weakened Mogul put a mind control mark on Turbo Tails, who's is stronger than Super Sonic.

      I shouldn't have to create a CRT just to correct you on things that aren't listed on Sonic's profile like the ring aura protecting Sonic from being killed.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      That's a version of Prime Sonic, meaning Enerjak could bypass the Fate Manipulation. Light Mobius and Dark Mobius are both futures for Mobius Prime and still fall under it. That being said, Super Sonic only beat Enerjak because Locke sacrificed himself to free Knuckles of Finitevus's hex. Dark Mobius has Enerjak winning their confrontation and has Sonic having his prelate stolen from him. It's the same Sonic and it details the fight pretty much had Locke not intervened like that. Mephiles also was able to put Sonic in a stasis of death because the events of Sonic 06 are canon to the Archie Comics. He survived because of his Immortality technically, aren't I correct? That's cute when Death can negate Immortality Type 8. Putting Sonic down really isn't that hard as people keep saying it is. Death can incapacitate him with all of the options listed above. Sonic nullified hax from a 2-A destructive potency, not from an effectiveness lets make that clear. Name one moment where the Master Emerald would otherwise do something like Death Manipulation to affect the infinite multiverse of people so that he can resist Death's version. Lol, Death completely murders Sonic.

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    • Jonrigade wrote:

      Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      That's a version of Prime Sonic, meaning Enerjak could bypass the Fate Manipulation. Light Mobius and Dark Mobius are both futures for Mobius Prime and still fall under it.

      This is another future timeline of Prime Sonic and Eggman killed him. The FateHax only applies to the main timeline Prime Sonic.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Are you saying that just because there's another instance where he was killed that it suddenly means that only a specific alternate timeline should have Fate Manipulation? When was that ever stated? The point was that the other person had claimed that it was an inferior Sonic. That wasn't the case is what I proved. You're adding more material to prove the point that was made and birthed a headcanon, that's nice.

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    • What do you mean by “only a specific alternate timeline should have Fate Manipulation”? That’s not what I said.

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    • He's saying potential futures of the prime zone would have the same past (until a point obviously) meaning Sonic should have the ring aura in all of them.

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    • Depends. Where does Light and Dark Mobius branch off? That Future I just shown with scans branched off before the 1 Billionth Ring. Where(when) did Dark Mobius branched off?

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    • Light Mobius is the same up until at least 125 and changes somewhere before 184. I'm not 100% sure on the placement of Dark Mobius but it should take place after 89 since that's when Knuckles first became Chaos Knuckles, there are probably statments in one of the two stories to beter place it but it's midnight 30 so I'm not about to read through them.

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    • Except Chaos Knuckles was something made from his birth and the Dark Legion(which would’ve been mention in this conversation) would’ve come into Prime Mobius whether or not Sonic got the 1 Billionth Ring.

      The 1 Billionth ring doesn’t change the fact Chaos Knuckles appears or the appearance of the Dark Legion.

      Good night, perhaps see ya in the morning. Also, sorry I forgot to respond on the Titan Tails thread.

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    • Hm, Sonic FRA!

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      I assumed you knew that there was branching timelines for Mobius Prime in later issues. And the point ever was of Chaos Knuckles emerging or not, he's saying the differences started happening there. The main difference is of who won between Super Sonic and Enerjak in their fight. Enerjak was triumphant in a future where Locke's intervention didn't happen, because Sonic technically wasn't even the one who beat Enerjak in the first place. They come after Sonic gets his OBPR, and you selectively picked an example while ignoring my point on Mephiles. You're incorrect on this front as Foney and I have explained. It doesn't help the Magic Negation was never replied to either and people keep playing dodgy with it. Was it ever even touched on how Sonic would bypass the Regeneration other than just people saying they would null Death's hax? If not, any vote for Sonic needs to be straight up not counted.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: Unlike Dark Enerjak, it's never clarified to us that he was Chaos Knuckles prior. The power they weild is virtually the same, Finitivus drawing a parallel between the virtual omnipotence of Chaos Knuckles and Enerjak doesn't definitively mean he was Chaos Knuckles. (this also begs the question, if he was Chaos Knuckles why would he need Enerjak? We don't see a substantial power increase) Regardless, Finitivus took over base Knuckles, as soon as he tapped into the Master Emerald's power, he fell to the hex.

      There isn't a precident that being more powerful improves their resistance to mind hax. Finitivus still had control after Knuckles became Enerjak, even if he was Chaos Knuckles, there's no reason Finitivus wouldn't still have control. Furthermore, Enerjak taking over Knuckles is not impressive since, due to the hex, he actively let him do it. Sonic's mind was altered by Cal and a weakened Mogul put a mind control mark on Turbo Tails, who's is stronger than Super Sonic.

      I shouldn't have to create a CRT just to correct you on things that aren't listed on Sonic's profile like the ring aura protecting Sonic from being killed.

      >Except that it absolutely does.DR Fin notes it’s the same power that Knuckles had before and even notes that Dimitri told him the Knuckles couldn’t control it.Saying it’s not Chaos Knuckles’s power is absurd.He needed Enerjak because Enerjak had the will and goal that Finitivus wanted,it’s clear as day when Enerjak goes down to Finitivus and asked for more power because he wants to finish his work which Finitivus desires,Knuckles wouldn’t have done the things Enerjak had done obviously.Again wrong look at the scan...the moment Knuckles becomes Enerjak is when he had the power that he couldn’t control.Hell Knuckles is still talking to Finitivus answering him that Enerjak had the power of gods if this was Enerjak at that point why would Enerjak be refering to himself in that way?It would make no sense from a contextual level to say Enerjak was responding to him. https://i.imgur.com/4PGy7Wk.jpg

      >You just contradicted yourself on the fact that power doesn’t determine the level of resistance with Mindhax resistance when you brought up Turbo Tails being superior to Super Sonic which doesn’t even apply here because Merlin refered to Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles powered by Chaos Emeralds not the Master Emerald.The Master Emerald was stated in the Encyclopedia to have power beyond the Chaos Emeralds and we even see that the Master Emerald granted Knuckles Chaos Knuckles in power as opposed to the Chaos emeralds which grants Hyper Knuckles.Master Emerald > Chaos Emeralds.Odd how Mogul put mind control tags on Tails and Sonic’s freinds when in prison but he never did it to Sonic....it’s like he knew it wouldn’t work also Al and Cal were able to control Sonic and Tails because they were in their zone whcih they have complete control of also that would just mean their mindhax can bypass Sonic’s resistance.Also Knuckles got mindhaxed by the Master Emerald when Sonic didn’t that’s blatant resistance and he even said he neutralized the hex.Also yes the hex did effect Knuckles’s mind as the Ant guy (forgot his name) said his mind was scrambled by the hex which didn’t work on Sonic.

      >Except you’re not correcting me as I and other knowledgeable memebers like Shake Resounding,Shadow Warrior Maverick Zero and Theuser disagree and have arguments against those notions of Sonic’s fatehax.In order to change them you need to make a CRT to address it and have it be debated that’s how the site works.

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    • Jonrigade wrote:

      Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      That's a version of Prime Sonic, meaning Enerjak could bypass the Fate Manipulation. Light Mobius and Dark Mobius are both futures for Mobius Prime and still fall under it. That being said, Super Sonic only beat Enerjak because Locke sacrificed himself to free Knuckles of Finitevus's hex. Dark Mobius has Enerjak winning their confrontation and has Sonic having his prelate stolen from him. It's the same Sonic and it details the fight pretty much had Locke not intervened like that. Mephiles also was able to put Sonic in a stasis of death because the events of Sonic 06 are canon to the Archie Comics. He survived because of his Immortality technically, aren't I correct? That's cute when Death can negate Immortality Type 8. Putting Sonic down really isn't that hard as people keep saying it is. Death can incapacitate him with all of the options listed above. Sonic nullified hax from a 2-A destructive potency, not from an effectiveness lets make that clear. Name one moment where the Master Emerald would otherwise do something like Death Manipulation to affect the infinite multiverse of people so that he can resist Death's version. Lol, Death completely murders Sonic.

      >That’s not how that works at all...there’s only one Prime Sonic in the multiverse as Zonic stated.You would need proof that Dark Mobius Sonic gained the OBPR since it’s an alternate and different version of Prime Sonic.No Super Sonic was toying around with Enerjak and Enerjak even said that he couldn’t destroy Super Sonic yes Locke did ultimately caused Enerjak to go away but Enerjak had no indication that he was beating Prime Super Sonic the literal chosen hero of the Mutliverse as opposed to an alternate version of Sonic who lost.

      >No...a preestablished story that contradicts info has no prevelance towards Archie Sonic and it’s abilities.Also we don’t even know how Sonic was killed and he easily could have just came back via the OBPR because Sonic was still alive afterwards and even then Elise states that he can still feel Sonic’s presence if we’re going by the canonity of 06.Again not enough context on his death.Also what’s stopping Sonic from using a power ring and nulling Death down to nothing?

      >The null turned a 2-A back into a Low 2-C and stripped his abilities so yes Death’s abilities would be gone.

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    • Also this is being added as incon and a huge Archie Sonic debate here is uncessary.Again make a CRT or a thread so it can be discussed just not here on an already concluded thread.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      Lol, you guys keep withholding the truth from the threadgoers so that Sonic is voted. Jani-Ca came from a future point in time because she thought Remington killed Knuckles because that's what Julie-Su told her. That alone shows they share the same timeline unless by your logic, you might as well think Silver wouldn't be from later in down the timeline as well. And yet you admit as well that it's still a version of Prime Sonic. The split in the timeline occured long after Sonic got his OBPR. YOU would need to prove why they version of Sonic wouldn't have it. Super Sonic was toying around with Enerjak to bring Knuckles out of the control. Enerjak was depleted even beforehand. There is a clear indication he could beat Sonic, that's why Dark Mobius even exists lol.

      Yes it does, it takes place in its continuity, which is why they have pages to begin with. You're implying large aspects of the plot should change just because they don't mesh will with your view of abilities. Guess what, it just means your view isn't the objective one. Sonic survived because of an Immortality. Now that I think about it as well, Sonic was conked out unconscious in the scan if I recall correctly even even when his spiritual essence was restored. That would give Death a very easy opening to use his win conditions aside from just Sonic's Fate Manipulation being not as good as people wank it to be.

      Even if I were to steelman and say that this is a possibly correct notion that he'd manage to make that work on Death when I already explained why the null won't work, can you show it would strip Death of his Regeneration? Sonic can't bypass it otherwise because stripping someone of offensive abilities is different from inherent physiology. Death goes Incon with Sonic at worst, he's more likely to get a win here.

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    • Jonrigade wrote: Lol, you guys keep withholding the truth from the threadgoers so that Sonic is voted. Jani-Ca came from a future point in time because she thought Remington killed Knuckles because that's what Julie-Su told her. That alone shows they share the same timeline unless by your logic, you might as well think Silver wouldn't be from later in down the timeline as well.

      89EB0CD9-FA36-4F3B-809E-6F9FD8496425

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      And yet you admit as well that it's still a version of Prime Sonic. The split in the timeline occured long after Sonic got his OBPR.

      Show proof that the timeline split happened after Sonic got the 1 Billionth Ring.

      YOU would need to prove why they version of Sonic wouldn't have it. Super Sonic was toying around with Enerjak to bring Knuckles out of the control. Enerjak was depleted even beforehand. There is a clear indication he could beat Sonic, that's why Dark Mobius even exists lol.

      Except Dark Mobius existed over 100 issues before Silver took a warp ring to another alternative future.

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    • Jonrigade wrote: Lol, you guys keep withholding the truth from the threadgoers so that Sonic is voted. Jani-Ca came from a future point in time because she thought Remington killed Knuckles because that's what Julie-Su told her. That alone shows they share the same timeline unless by your logic, you might as well think Silver wouldn't be from later in down the timeline as well.

      Um... because Silver isn’t from down the timeline of Dark Mobius.

      E39F0324-A8BA-48A4-A5B8-C6AE9FCA2A50
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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Lmao, you decided to keep the context from the threadgoers again. Man, how has this not been caught? He got the One Billionth Power Ring in Issue 35 (https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/One_Billionth_Power_Ring) and the timeline split began to change around Issue 80 which you literally pulled the scan from. So yes it becomes an alternate reality because of her interference, that's literally the definition of an alternate reality. And I never said it didn't exist beforehand, that's irrelevant to the point. I also didn't say Silver is from the Dark Mobius timeline, I said you might as well not think he's from later on in a possible future if you really think Dark Mobius isn't a future version of Mobius Prime, the logic is erroneous. Please stop strawmanning me.

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    • >Dark Mobius Sonic just got trumped by Dark Enerjak he never died.The encyclopedia even states that Dark Enerjak took their essence and turned them into cores which made his prelates.

      >The encyclopedia even calls Dark Mobius “another timeline”.

      >Tge Ancient Walkers exist outside time and space so there’s no alternate versions of them to hand out OBPR’s to the alternate versions of Sonic.The encyclopedia also says they rarely intervene with affairs which contradicts the idea of the Ancient Walker’s granting Sonic’s their own OBPR across all the other timelines.

      >Prime Sonic the chosen hero of the multiverse would also make the most sense have it as it’s his destiny to become the most pivotal hero of all time and space.

      >Yeah Enerjak was depleted but you forget Sonic gets powered by the same thing to the same extent as Enerjak did by the Master Emerald.Even then Sonic was toying and ultimately wasn’t going all out because remember he didn’t want to kill Knuckles and just was holding him back so his positive aura would restore Knuckles.So yes they are equal in terms of power.

      >A pre established story for a completely different Sonic having prevalence over an already established Sonic and his abilities is a big no.Also we have next to no context on how Sonic died he very well could have came back seconds later by the OBPR which is what grants him his Fatehax which allows him to never lose as Mogul said.You also never addressed the fact that this already established story has prevalence over Archie then Archie should have prevelance over the game version which makes Game Solaris and Game Illumina 2-A you can’t say it won’t apply to game when your interpretation directly applies to Archie apparently “contradicting” info.Not to mention evidence shown in the comics is far more solid than an added pre established story in an encyclopedia that contradicts info.

      >Also your blatantly downplaying Sonic and his abilities deceiving thread goers.See how easy it is to say something from our own perspective? I would recommend cutting it out with this wanking crap.

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    • Jonrigade wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Lmao, you decided to keep the context from the threadgoers again. Man, how has this not been caught? He got the One Billionth Power Ring in Issue 35 (https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/One_Billionth_Power_Ring) and the timeline split began to change around Issue 80 which you literally pulled the scan from. So yes it becomes an alternate reality because of her interference, that's literally the definition of an alternate reality. And I never said it didn't exist beforehand, that's irrelevant to the point. I also didn't say Silver is from the Dark Mobius timeline, I said you might as well not think he's from later on in a possible future if you really think Dark Mobius isn't a future version of Mobius Prime, the logic is erroneous. Please stop strawmanning me.

      >Your additude needs to stop just because it’s from your perspective and you think it’s the truth doesn’t make you right.Cut it out now.

      >The encyclopedia states Dark Mobius is in another timeline not a diverging one it’s a completely different zone.

      >Again I explained that alternate versions of the AW’s granting the OBPR to alternate versions of Sonic would contradict the fact that they exist outside time and space and that they rarely interfere with affairs bar the only few times we see than as stated in the encyclopedia.

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    • I just read through the whole Sonic hax discussion and I heavily agree with Oblivion and Elixir their rebukes are making the most sense here.

      Also incon FRA if it’s not too late.

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    • I mean grace ended for Incon 

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    • Both Enerjak and Chaos Knuckles have virtual omnipotence, Knuckles couldn't control it before, that's what Finitivus is talking about. Gala-Na also compares Chaos Knuckles to Enerjak, does that mean Knuckles was Enerjak in issue 90? Comparing their appearance/powerset doesn't mean he is Chaos Knuckles. Do you not know how the hex works? It gives Finitivus control of Knuckles, Enerjak's goals and ambitions are meaningless, Knuckles responding is meaningless since he was already under his control. I'm not saying Knuckles became Enerjak the moment he touched the emerald, I'm telling you what the comic says, that Finitivus took control once he did and Knuckles became Enerjak. Whether or not he was Chaos Knuckles is interpretation.

      How is me saying Turbo Tails is stronger than Super Sonic a contradiction, that was my point? Knuckles didn't use the Master Emerald to become Chaos Knuckles in issue 89, and when he actually does use the Master Emerald in 141 he goes hyper, you're just making stuff up. Reading the comic shows Mogul didn't tag Tails, Mina, and Mightly while in prison, he had already tagged them and activated them while in prison, which is all he could due since he was weakened.

      I'm not super keen on Sonic winning matches based on fabricated nonsense. I'm not going to rush to make a CRT every time you make something up, the forum would be flooded, I should be allowed to correct you when you're wrong. Either way, I did make a CRT about the fate hax with only Ed Infinitum providing arguments that where refuted.

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    • Neon Battle Bind wrote:

      Elixir has been caught lying multiple times in this thread and outright said he wasn't too knowledgeable.

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    • Jonrigade wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Lmao, you decided to keep the context from the threadgoers again. Man, how has this not been caught? He got the One Billionth Power Ring in Issue 35 (https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/One_Billionth_Power_Ring) and the timeline split began to change around Issue 80 which you literally pulled the scan from. So yes it becomes an alternate reality because of her interference, that's literally the definition of an alternate reality. And I never said it didn't exist beforehand, that's irrelevant to the point. I also didn't say Silver is from the Dark Mobius timeline, I said you might as well not think he's from later on in a possible future if you really think Dark Mobius isn't a future version of Mobius Prime, the logic is erroneous. Please stop strawmanning me.

      Elixir has been caught lying multiple times in this thread and outright said he wasn't too knowledgeable.

      > Lol. Claims I’m lying with his headcanon and chooses to not mention Julie su lied about Remmington killing Knuckles. Lara-Su never went into her past and her actions didn’t effect her (Dark Mobius) timeline. So there is no timeline split from Lara-Su’s actions.

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    • Oblivion Lightning wrote:

      That's what I said. I said Dark Enerjak completely fucked Sonic up and took away his prelate. I'm saying "putting down" Sonic is so loose that it's very easy to exploit, the Fate Manipulation simply isn't that good.

      Yeah, it's another possible timeline like I mentioned beforehand. That doesn't refute anything lol.

      When did I claim that they had other versions of the Ancient Walkers? That's an absolutely irrelevant to the point I made. Not every version of Mobius Prime has a Sonic with the OBPR either, it's just that the split of the Enerjak winning or lose comes far after him getting it, starting with the Remington thing of course. Elixir actually already showed a version of Mobius Prime where he didn't have it because the split occurred before Issue 35. And Sonic would get it by virtue of how timelines work unless you have something to suggest the contrary. The best you have offered is that it just doesn't make sense to you which isn't a point. Even things like the Sword of Acorns have alternate timeline duplicates so I'm not sure why this is a problem.

      The Master Emerald helps feed Knuckles Enerjak, but he is also amped by just the natural energy Enerjak manifests into his hosts. This point openly isn't too relevant to begin with, but Knuckles being depleted but still managing to harm Super Sonic as it was shows that they were relative at the level both were fighting at.

      You're completely misrepresenting and butchering everything I said. I said the events how they happened would apply over to the Comics. Why would that remotely imply me saying that Archie has jurisdiction over the game Canon as well? You extrapolated that notion yourself, that was never something I said. It's called that the way the game's events are handled apply over from multiple statements perhaps? I don't have to address an idea that is of a false premise. Since your conclusion is derivative on a non-mutually exclusive interaction between the games and Archie when I said they were mutually exclusive, then your conclusion is false and completely an attempt to get to the truth and denying objectivism.

      The difference is I'm not downplaying. I'm using common sense to make my point versus the lack of clarity and denials presented in the opposition.

      Do not try to insult my pursuit for the truth, I am merely making my points in the most effective manner. You should not try to treat me like a child because you don't like my opposition. I have respected your side enough to not devolve into mindless insulting.

      Being called another timeline refers to it being an alternative one as Elixir already posted in the scan above. This is just blatant appeal to ignorance by this interval.

      I don't think you understand the events still happens, the split still happens afterward. I guess you're trying to imply that the Power Ring also exists outside of changes in time? Just because the Walkers gave it to him does not mean it shared those properties. The Source of All is beyond the Chaos Force and the Multiverse, yet the Sword of Acorns can have other timeline versions despite being made from it similarly as evidenced by how it exists in Dark Mobius. Your point has absolutely no substantiation and is just pure conjecture.

      I like how you still choose to ignore my point on Sonic's null not affecting Death either. Death completely still takes this for the reasons that were already listed.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      “Trip to Mobius Prime Lara-Su arrives in Mobius Prime Lara-Su grew up thinking that her father Knuckles had been killed by Remington when she was younger, and became determined to undo that tragic event. Deciding to take the initiative, she applied the training Dimitri gave her and spent a few weeks building up enough power to create a space-time portal and rescue her father. Even though it was risky and dangerous, the war was not going well, and she wanted to do something about it. Traveling to present day Angel Island in Mobius Prime, she arrived during the period in which all the inhabitants except for Knuckles, Julie-Su, and the Dark Legion had been teleported to the Twilight Zone by the Quantum Beam, Lara-Su was rather confused to find Echidnaopolis deserted. Her confusion multiplied when Chaos Knuckles, using his immense powers, undid the beam's effects. Lara found herself surrounded by the returned Echidnas, among them Remington-the very Echidna whom she had been told by her future mother, Julie-Su, had killed Knuckles. Deciding to go undercover until she could make sense of things, Lara-Su made the constable's acquaintance, claiming to be one "Jani-Ca." Almost immediately afterwards, she ran into her grandmother and namesake, Lara-Le, and then the past versions of her life parents.” - https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/Jani-Ca

      So you lied again because Jani-Ca went back in time to stop Remington to kill Knuckles. When did I ever have a headcanon as well? I've cited evidence that's not even been refuted. You unironically posted scans that proved what I said. So in your attempt to mock me, you completely fell flat on your face. You're right, you weren't withholding context, you just don't know it. I've had to correct you on several things regarding Dark Mobius. I didn't mention the lie because I figured you'd understand she lied to help protect Jani-Ca from the truth that Knuckles was actually Enerjak. My claim wasn't wrong because Jani-Ca did go to the past under the pretense of changing it.

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    • Can we just close the thread already and agree to stop arguing? It's already been agreed for Incon, we can all drop this now. It's getting out of hand.

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    • I will stop under the conditions that Elixir and Oblivion stop replying passed this.

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    • Okay then.

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    • Jani-Su even admits she didn’t even go into her (Dark Mobius) past, but ended up in another timeline’s past.

      323B7080-13C3-48C8-A5B9-8C1BB87ABD6E
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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      He already agreed to stop commenting. Literally stop, the thread is already concluded and we're just waiting for this to get added. This is just fanning the flames.

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    • I am sorry about that but I don’t appreciate when someone calls me a lier.

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    • I honestly don’t have the time or patience to continue with these Archie Fatehax threads but I still vehemently disagree with everything Foney and Jonrigade stated about Sonic’s fatehax and the overall downplay and “corrections” but I’m pretty much done with the wiki so yeah this can be closed.

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    • Genericstickman wrote: I mean grace for Incon has ended

      ^

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    • A FANDOM user
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