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  • A continuation of this thread

    Before anyone gets any funny ideas, I implore you to read before having any knee jerks. 

    I'm quite...disappointed...to find that my last thread has been closed (in my abscense) due to bringing up a topic that I specifically disregarded. Even worse, the goal of my thread was clearly misjudged. The fact that I was not here due to real world stuff to defend my thread and keep stuff in line just makes it worse. So I will reiterate here so we're all clear. 


    1. This has very little to do with King Thanos and his scaling. I disregarded him in my reasoning due to the contradictory nature of what he's shown to be capable of. Do not bring him up and do not attempt justify or reason what his tier should be or the like. That is not the purpose my thread. If you wish to do so, go make your own thread about it. I don't recommend it because Ant is quite tired of it and I have made my feelings on it clear before. If you don't know what those are, I'll restate them: I concur with Ant that he is way too inconsistent and not worth trying to sort out.

    DO NOT ADD TOPICS to MY THREAD JUST SO YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IT! I JUST NOTICED THAT SOMEONE DID THAT IN THE PREVIOUS THREAD!!

    2. My purpose was giving evidence, justification for and discussing a new key being added to Silver Surfer's profile. Not a page. Not a profile. Just a key. This is another thing that went wrong in the previous thread, which led to it being closed. So, again, this is about a key.

    TD;LR: People basically turned my thread into something is wasn't, brought up things that I wasn't talking about, and my goal was misinterepted. In response, Ant closed it. I do not wish to repeat that. Please read the above reasoning as to why for more details.

    During the Thanos Wins story arc, we met some future versions of familiar characters. The most famous are King Thanos and Cosmic Ghost Rider. There was, however, another who doesn't get a lot of spotlight, surprisingly. Drum Roll... 

    Norrin Radd (Earth-TRN666) from Thanos Vol 2 16 001

    For those not familiar, this is Silver Surfer, now known as the Fallen One. Now, the Fallen One's history is identical to the standard Earth-616's except for severl factors: he is much older (like millions of years older) and he's done enough stuff to become worthy of wielding Mjolnir. 

    Now, Surfer as the Fallen One has a notably brief appearence but he does do enough to actually have some legit scaling. As such, I'll detail his potential statistics. 

    Rating 

    Now, he'd still be 4-B but a good deal stronger. This is based off the fact the Fallen One has Silver Surfer's exact history and feats plus what he briefly demonstrates. His most notable one however, is killing Cosmic Ghost Rider in a single blow with Mjolnir. Now CGR's scaling is as follows: 

    CGR > Pre-Thanos Quest Thanos >= Adam Warlock > Olik > Ulik >= Thor/Green Hulk/Silver Surfer

    Going further, we also have a brief altercation between the older Hulk and the Fallen One. He stops Hulk with a single arm with Hulk not really doing any damage and only really hurts himself.  I think this shows that the Fallen One is really above his younger self. It should also be noted that he was only beaten by Thanos and King Thanos after they blindsided him with Surtur's Twilight Sword and almost immediately getting Mjolnir away from the Fallen One by cutting his arm off with the same sword, thus depriving him of his most powerful weapon. 

    Powers  

    The Fallen One key would have all the powers of base Silver Surfer plus those granted by Mjolnir. 

    TL;DR: I'm proposing a key for the Fallen One. A future version of Earth-616 Silver Surfer who would have eventually come into existence if Thanos had not taken steps to prevent the rise of King Thanos and erased that timeline.

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    • I literally have no idea who the fallen one is.

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    • KLOL506 wrote:
      I literally have no idea who the fallen one is.

      He was the future version of Silver Surfer that comes from the same timeline that spawned Cosmic Ghost Rider. He's basically what Silver Surfer would have become if King Thanos ever came to be.

      Basically, after Thanos became King Thanos and set about murdering all creation, Silver Surfer spent his time opposing Thanos. After millions of years, he eventually became worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

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    • I see.

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    • It should be another profile in any case.

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    • Eficiente wrote:
      It should be another profile in any case.

      I thought that at one point but, there are a few things to consider. 

      His appearence is very brief. So brief, that really, making an entire profile is a little much. Hence why I suggest that it be a key. Backing what I just said, this is 616 Surfer. The King Thanos timeline is directly linked to the timeline 616. This is shown when Thanos decides to make sure that he never becomes King Thanos and this future is erased. 

      With that in mind, the Fallen One shares the same history, feats and abilities of Silver Surfer, he's just more powerful due to his experiences and adding Mjolnir's power to his own. We also have a bit of precendent for this sort of thing with Carnage. Carnage has key that comes from a What If where the symbiote bonds with the Silver Surfer.

      Given that such a thing is a one-off, non-616 related comic but it's allowed on Carnage's profile, I don't see why we couldn't just add it to Silver Surfer's profile as a key. given the aforementioned factors involved.

      Really, though, I don't truly mind either way. Key or page, it wouldn't be hard to implement, given everything involved. That said, Ant was pretty set against it being it's own page...that's part of the reason my other thread got closed.

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    • Well, I was stressed out and tired when I closed the thread. On second thought, we do have a profile for The Keeper, who is a similar character.

      However, this is an alternative future timeline version of the Surfer, who only appeared briefly and scales to Thanos, whose power level was all over the place in this story. Even if we accepted it, all that would happen is a separate profile with the combined powers of the regular Silver Surfer and regular Thor.

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    • I'm neutral on a page being created for him. While he is pretty cool conceptually, his appearance was so brief that its barely even worth mentioning, and he's basically just an amalgam of two characters to begin with. I don't see any harm in making a page for him, but I'm obviously in no rush to see one made

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    • Yes, there are two main issues here: His unremarkable brief appearance, and scaling to Thanos, who had no set power level in this story.

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    • See, this is what I told AshenCrow777, that his appearence is so brief that I didn't know if people would consider it noteworthy enough. However, Schnee One pointed out that we have key for Cosmic Carnage on Carnage's page. 

      Cosmic Carnage is what would happen if the Carnage symbiote bonded to Silver Surfer and is a combo of the two. Based on that, I said that I would see if we could get the Fallen One added as a key.

      As for scaling, the Fallen One does have another feat to scale to: killing Cosmic Ghost Rider in a single shot.

      That said, I'm very neutral on the matter, and a more as an experiment  than anything else. Mainly because Cosmic Carnage being on Carnage's page made raise an eyebrow.

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    • Cosmic Carnage actually appeared in-continuity, but I think that key should be removed as well, as it was only very briefly.

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    • Why not jts give Silver Surfer the hammer with the abilities of Thor and that's pretty much it no need to scale him from inconsistent Thanos?

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    • A new profile for such a brief and swiftly killed off character from an alternative timeline seems pointless.

      We should close this thread.

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    • No. Ant. We shouldn't

      People are still discussing, do not close until it's over.

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    • Hmm. I am getting rather tired of this though.

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    • Then let others deal with it

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    • Antvasima wrote: Hmm. I am getting rather tired of this though.

      I do not mean to be rude but maybe you should unfollow this thread and come back later when you are less "tired of this" I'm sorry but I would like to avoid what happened last time when you prematurely closed the thread without any warning and just said to drop the subject.


      I would rather like to avoid this again.

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    • @Schnee

      I usually do, but I am the only staff member knowledgeable about Marvel who seems interested in handling this.

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    • Anyway, there are thousands of "What if?" alternative timelines versions of Marvel characters with very brief appearances and nearly nonexistent impact. This version of the Silver Surfer is no different from the rest of them, and is not important enough to be featured here.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I usually do, but I am the only staff member knowledgeable about Marvel who seems interested in handling this.

      Wait what marvel is a pretty big verse why is there only one knowledgeable for something that big???

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    • Antvasima wrote: @Schnee

      I usually do, but I am the only staff member knowledgeable about Marvel who seems interested in handling this.

      Me as well you know.

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    • @Ashen

      There are a few others, but most of them are currently busy, and this is also a rather unimportant subject to bother them with. It is also wasting my limited time that could be used on more important tasks.

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    • @Schnee

      I have never noticed any particularly deep knowledge about Marvel Comics from you in the past, but am obviously open to help from other staff members.

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    • Anyway, again, we cannot feature any unimportant alternate timeline version of mainstream Marvel characters that only made an appearance for a few pages. There are tens of thousands of them. This one only feels more prominent because it is recent.

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    • I k ow this is old but new comics as shown that Silver surfer black as basically became like the fallen and like the fallen one he controls and is made of black matter

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    • Okay.

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    • I still don't understand the key thingey for Fallen One. Alternate Timelines are on the same level as Alternate Universes. Fallen One can get a separate profile, sure, but for the love of God don't put a "possible" version of the character on the canonical 616 page.

      Isn't Cosmic Carnage the Earth 928 version of the character? Nonetheless, it should be nuked from the Carnage page, as even if it is canonical, it should be treated the same as we treat Venom hosts, where we add keys with respect to the host, not the symbiote.

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    • I agree that we need to remove various profiles and statistics keys for very temporary and unimportant power-ups and alternative timeline Marvel & DC Comics characters.

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    • I think that'll be fine, but it needs to be considered by a case-by-case basis, and probably would need a separate thread as it may be time-consuming and possibly heated.

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    • Yes. Agreed.

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    • But future king thor despite being an other universe timeline we know that he's is the same thor in the 616 main cannon universe Jason Aaron keeps making tie in between him and Thor.

      Now the same thing with fallen silver surfer now all black surfer is literally becoming the fallen one.

      But OK let's do a fallen one profile, an old king thor profile too.

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    • Both of those profiles would be very hard to scale properly. I would prefer if we avoid it.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Both of those profiles would be very hard to scale properly. I would prefer if we avoid it.

      King Thor is obviously on the same level as Gor he can literally have the same rating as him 4-B|2-A they have constantly fought each other almost on equal footings with one overpowering the other when gaining the advantage vice versa plus new King thor comic shows King thor a sun at Gorr and the guy just slices it in half casually.

      Plus king Thor as possess the necrosword for a while so that rating is justified.

      Silver surfer can just get the abilities of normal silver surfer (they have the exact same background and now possibly future) so a 4-B rating would be good with an unknown and he was worthy of miljonir so he can get some abilities that comes with it.


      I'm not saying we should make him celestial level just logically scale him to his Canon form and add an unknown rating plus the hammer until more info comes into light.

      But king Thor is obviously Massively above current thor especially when he has the Phoenix force and fought against sorcerer Supreme/iron fist/starbrand/spirit of vengenxe doctor doom.

      Yes ridiculous but still Canon within his own timeline.

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    • The problem is that traditionally Odin has been portrayed as at least tier 2-C, but King Thor, who should technically be equal, has never been portrayed anywhere near these levels.

      Similarly, the Fallen One was only supposed to be as strong as the Silver Surfer + Thor taken together, but could still pose a threat to Thanos, who killed Galactus and had Black Bolt kill Celestials.

      Neither of their stories make sense from a power-scaling viewpoint.

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    • You see, he went past Odin. In fact, the odinforce is called the “thorforce” now.

      He has several great feats including-

      Tanking a punch from Galactus equal to a billion supernovaes(not flowerly speech if you have read the cmic all the way till the last issue), hurting him with blasts and hits.

      Galactus vs thor 1

      Tanking two point blank blasts from a sated Galactus

      Galactus vs thor 2
      Matches the energies of Galactus
      Galactus vs thor 3
      and we know  that Odinforce Thor has great feats and once Odin dies the force will be ome Thor's.

      all these feats were made in the first volume of King Thor to show how powerfull he is, even Odin could not fully match a Sated Galactus.

      Plus later on Thor gains the Necro sword (it should be a key)to truly end the fighr since him and Galactus were literaly equals.

      later on in recent issues Loki gains the necro sword and we see King thor taking him on (The mutant Ulysses saw a possible future where this conflict would occur, was forseen in civil war 2.) with slight difficulty and  he was holding back(not that it would have changed much) because he still cared about Loki as shown in the fight against gor when he throws a sun at him.

      plus on a side not  Thor blew up a planet filled to the brim with Napalm when fighting againt loki while they were standing on it and at the origin point of the explosion.

      and lets not forget Logan given him the pheonix force (that was obviously a power boost) King Thor is obviously above Odin by these few feats and we know how Jason Aaron feels about Odin plus King thor is obviously written above Odin.

      theres no reason not to put king thor

      '4-B2-C | At least / possibly 2-A, 'higher when amped by the necro sword / received a permanent boost when Logan gave him the full power of the pheonix force.|unknown|

      King Thor is much more easier to scale than Fallen one silver surfer because he is much more consistent , and in is story hes either fighting cosmic entities or just fight people amped by cosmic beings.

      im willing to leave fallen one if we come to an agreement to keep King thor, i mean fthe guy as no anti feats at all theres no reason to not make him powerfull so far he is as powerfull as Odin force King Thor and Rune King thor (probably the only thing diffrent are the hax's) so are we good? 

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    • and the only story that dosent makes sense is the Thanos Win story which the Fallen one is part of aside from that? Saying King Thor story are inconsistent is simply falseas shown above.

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    • None of these feats portray him anywhere near a 2-C scale as far as I can see.

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    • Im already making this, he's 2-A

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    • @Weekly thank you and yes i knew it!!!

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    • @Weekly

      What profile are you talking about? A King Thor one?

      You cannot arbitrarily create profiles for Marvel characters with few showings and extremely incoherent statistics.

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    • Few showings??? Ant King Thor has his own series going one and he appeared more than 5 times.

      and you have still have not pointed out whats statistics are actually incoherent, becaus eso far none of it is incoherent.

      King Thor is obviously 2-C to 2-A without a shadow of a doubt saying otherwise is just illogical he has no anti feat at all either and he as fought Necro sword users several time and they are 2-A 

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    • @Ant We are talking about Old King Thor from the comic with Gorr right? That thor has half a dozen 2-A feats, his feats are shockingly consistent

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    • No he does not. He just has some inconsistent powerscaling matchups. Jason Aaron is completely unreliable in this area, and does not portray Odin, Celestials, or old Thor as anywhere near 2-C, much less 2-A.

      I would much prefer considerable input from our most knowledgeable members before you rush away to create exaggerated pages for extremely inconsistent characters.

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    • I already asked the people you told me to ask and they approved it being 2-A remember?

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    • Ant you understand simply trying to say "no" to a character nearly everyone deems to be Consistent will just result in stone-walling and will make the conversation go absolutely nowhere, it doesn't help not only the people you are speaking with, but it generally effects the Wikia as a whole.

      Anyways, I am in support with 2-A OKT

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    • With all due respect Ant i see that youre tired, maybe get some rest and come back to this later? I think we can hold off on this for the time being

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: I already asked the people you told me to ask and they approved it being 2-A remember?

      ^^^^ basically this.

      And saying King Thor is inconsistent is just false, can you point out an actual inconsistent?

      The guy like weekly said have more than a dozen of 2-A feat and more coming on, we all have a small beef with Aaron with how he treated Thor back then, but now?

      The guy is putting in some work and giving a coherent story, just saying no and "it's Aaron that wrote that" is not enough to deny the dozen of feats King thor has.

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    • Just a few examples of Jason Aaron's inconsistencies:

      Odin was matched by Jane Foster Thor and defeated by the regular Thor.

      Mjolnir-less young Thor caused trouble to Gorr just like Old King Thor did.

      The Celestials were essentially treated as weak giant robots that large versions of Thor, She-Hulk, and the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider could handle.

      Gorr, future Galactus, and Old King Thor usually only displayed High 4-C to 4-B level feats when truly exerting themselves.

      Also, which members have you asked and gained agreement from regarding a 2-A Thor Weekly? A 2-A prime Odin was just rejected after a long discussion in another thread, so making Old King Thor infinitely stronger does not make any sense in relation to our other profiles.

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    • Here are some members that you should ask to comment here before you start making a 2-A Thor profile:

      Sera EX, Kepekley23, Matthew Schroeder, Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfan.

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    • "The Celestials were essentially treated as weak giant robots that large versions of Thor, She-Hulk, and the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider could handle."

      >5th host and they couldn't do anything even when amped by the magic of Ymir, Ghost Rider had the power of a celestial himself

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    • @Ant Sandman and PrinceOfTheMorning

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    • @Hykuu

      They could do plenty, and they were just grown to giant size. Robbie Reyes just used a dead Celestial's body as his new bike. It still used him as a power source.

      @Weekly

      I have no memories of them accepting a 2-A Thor, so feel free to quote them, but even if they did, it still wouldn't make any sense to make him 2-A rather than 2-C.

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    • No, they had strength aswell, size wouldn't really matter at that point if they could have just swapped hands.

      Ya and it directly connects him to it, he would still regain the power.

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    • Honestly, I haven't been keeping up with current Marvel and can't stand most of it, similiar to PrinceOfTheMorning. 

      So yeah, can someone breakdown the positions here for me? This thread is a far cry from what I originally started it as.

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    • I don't know if a 2-A Thor makes sense, that makes him infinitely stronger than his dear old dad. In terms of scaling... that doesn't make a lot of sense

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    • @Crimson Canonically he is. Only a few weeks after he obtained the Odinforce his power surpassed Odin's so much that Doctor Strange and a bunch of other people tried to put a limiter on him

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    • Also Gorr nearly killed Young Thor even when Gorr was in a weakened state before he absorbed the power of gods over thousands of years. King Thor oneshot Gorr twice, forcing Gorr to kill and absorb all the rest of the gods he enslaved and only then was able to beat King Thor.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: @Crimson Canonically he is. Only a few weeks after he obtained the Odinforce his power surpassed Odin's so much that Doctor Strange and a bunch of other people tried to put a limiter on him

      Can you show me a scan of this please? I only remember Thor being temporarily cut off from the Odinforce from the old late 1990s Jurgens run on the Thor book.

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    • Anyway, I still do not think that we can scale Old King Thor any higher than 2-C given his relation to Odin.

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    • Doesn't matter can we just get back on topic regarding surfer

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: Also Gorr nearly killed Young Thor even when Gorr was in a weakened state before he absorbed the power of gods over thousands of years. King Thor oneshot Gorr twice, forcing Gorr to kill and absorb all the rest of the gods he enslaved and only then was able to beat King Thor.

      ^^^^ also this
      Main-qimg-e9c0c129cfcf38cd78d19b9f443c7a8e
      we all know how the Odin force works and we know that once Odin dies Thor will inherit the entirety of it, and guess what he did die and Thor as had the Odin force (now Thor force) more millions of years so long that the universe is nearing its heat death.

      Plus the older Asgardian get the stronger they are, are you guys really going to say that Thor after all these years didn't surpass Odin or match him?

      That's simply ridiculous and illogical.

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    • @Ashen Im going to ask that you try to be respectful, i get that youre frustrated but Ant is just trying to keep things accurate

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    • Antvasima wrote: Anyway, I still do not think that we can scale Old King Thor any higher than 2-C given his relation to Odin.

      2-C and 2-A via necrosword.

      @Weekly sorry if I sound aggressive but I'm actually really not ill try to write differently to look less aggressive, sorry for the misunderstanding.

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    • King Thor fought Phoenix force wolverine who in turn killed celestials and then fought old man doom who fought and nearly killed wolverine

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    • Then he fought Loki empowered by the necrosword, and in recent volume he fought against Gorr again.

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    • Hykuu wrote:
      Doesn't matter can we just get back on topic regarding surfer

      Please, lets and finally put the matter to rest. 

      All the stuff for King Thor and the like should really be it's own thread.

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    • Well, the main problem is that Jason Aaron does not write any of these characters as anywhere near tier 2-A, which makes the scaling difficult, but yes, we should stop discussing this issue here.

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    • C2 of Omegon wrote:

      Hykuu wrote:
      Doesn't matter can we just get back on topic regarding surfer

      Please, lets and finally put the matter to rest. 

      All the stuff for King Thor and the like should really be it's own thread.

      But if we get King Thanos accepted we might get Surfer accepted since they both face the same problem that Ant has with them.

      Also
      RCO011 1571865093
      these events they are talking about is obviously the main universe 616 events. So dosent that debunk what Zark2099 said?
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    • Is this the same as Silver Surfer as the one in Silver Surfer Black Black or is a completely different version of him?

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    • It's completely different, this one simply became worthy overtime and nearly slapped 2 Diones, Surfer Black is the one whose gonna fight Rune King Thor in 2020 after "beating" Knull

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    • ACUALY, SILVER SURFER  FUSED WITH  SENTRY

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    • Just temporarily.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Just temporarily.

      Way too soon to say temporarily, they are obviously going somewhere with this and they just started temporarily would mean that they ended their fused state... Which they haven't.

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    • Well, it seems unlikely that it lasts, but we will see.

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    • @AshenCrow

      It is still not guaranteed to be Earth-616, the timelines are constantly shifting and different stories contradict each other, so we can't guarantee it to be relevant in the future Marvel stories.

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    • Zark2099 wrote: @AshenCrow

      It is still not guaranteed to be Earth-616, the timelines are constantly shifting and different stories contradict each other, so we can't guarantee it to be relevant in the future Marvel stories.

      The silver surfer we see is clearly the same one after his fight with Knull since he was still looking for his essance that got scattered all around the universe hence the reason why he dosent have a body and also the reason why he looks black.

      There is no doubt that this silver surfer is the same, we just need to wait and see what happens next.

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    • Do you know that Cable in Deadpool & Cable was meant to be the same Cable as the canon one?

      Do you know that Mister Immortal who Hulk hakai'd was supposed to live till the end in the future?

      Do you know how many different times it is stated Spider-Man 2099 is from the future Earth-616 when it's not?

      Do you know how apparently Ms. Marvel is somehow the greatest superhero on Earth in the future?

      The future in Gwenpool is technically irrelevant now because of character changes.

      It doesn't exactly matter whether the events are set in the future when they all contradict each other, the futures are the same level as alternate universe in Marvel.

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    • Zark is correct about that there is no set official future in Marvel comicbooks.

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    • I am not talking about all these irrelevant futures I'm specifically talking about how Donny cates storyline is the current Canon for silver surfer especially with what is coming with 2020 around the corner and the fact that he outright said knull will not be the focus of the new Thor story line but an other cosmic (all black) entity will be the new focus.


      And the different between cates and all these other writers is that Cates actually have a great understanding of Marvel Hierarchy and is insanely consistent in his own story.


      Plus in annihilation scourge it's straight up says that Black surfer is the exact same surfer that "died" in order to save the Marvel universe and that he just started to get reform a while back.

      This is Black surfer new Canon. That's why we said we have to wait and see and not just swipe it under the rug.

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    • Wait and see is fine. Scaling from alternative futures is not.

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    • dude we literally see reed refer to the cancerverse sentry as the 616 sentry and surfer merging with bob is literally because the Void is attacking 616

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    • Dude it doesn't matter when the futures mean jackshit in terms of Marvel.

      Just make a new profile, Surfer getting this key is non-sensical

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    • Yes, we should probably close this thread.

      Anyway, as our Canon page says, we should be very restrictive with allowing alternative timeline characters that have only appeared briefly.

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    • @Zark wait you know the "future" is just the time period between surfer black and the annihilation scourage right? And that wasn't even the point I was making

      Also, idc about making the key. I'm just making this clear this is 616 surfer

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    • This version of the Surfer does not have any feats in canon continuity yet.

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    • "Also, idc about making the key. I'm just making this clear this is 616 surfer"

      smh

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    • Okay. Noted.

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    • Antvasima wrote: This version of the Surfer does not have any feats in canon continuity yet.

      Ant he does he had an entire solo run in the black surfer story, the Annihilation scourge arc is the same exact surfer from from the black surfer he literally says it himself and that he is still weak since he is still gathering his essance that was scattered at the end of his fight with knull.

      And like Hykuu it's 616 surfer.


      Annihilation scourge is a direct continuation of the Black surfer run by Donny Cates.

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    • Okay. So what do you wish to add specifically?

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    • Antvasima wrote: Okay. So what do you wish to add specifically?

      Like I said I rather wait and see until something note worthy appears, plus a lot of new issues are coming out in 2020 that will affect people like Thor and silver surfer.

      And Donny cates will make a lot of tie in with what happened, so yeah I rather wait and see.

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    • A FANDOM user
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