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  • Kavpeny
    Kavpeny closed this thread because:
    This thread is currently defunct, and is kept for legacy reasons only.
    14:59, January 2, 2016

    The issue of canon (i.e. manga + BoG only) Cell being able to bust the solar system has been a hot debate for a long, long time. It's been going around in circles with no end in sight. I have put together a calculation which debunks this statement as JUST a hyperbole.

    Before anybody replies to this, either in agreement or in argument, I would like them to go through the entire post properly.

    So, why isn't Cell a solar system buster?

    Before coming to that, we need to determine the energy needed to actually destroy the solar system. For that purpose, I would like to redirect everybody to this calculation. Long story short, after taking all factors into account, the energy required to destroy the mass of the solar system is 5.5 x 10^31 tons of TNT if using a purely focused blast, 5.09 x 10^37 tons of TNT if a unidirectional blast which encompasses the entire volume (Kamehameha's Area of Effect is ALWAYS unidirectional).

    So the energy required to destroy the solar sytem is 5.09 x 10^37 tons of TNT.

    Now that the required energy output has been established, let us disprove exactly why Cell isn't a solar system buster. The answer to that is very simple: even SSJ3 Goku in BoG cannot produce the required energy, and he is way above Cell in terms of raw power output.

    Now I will proceed to calculate BoG SSJ3 Goku's energy output. Bills states in the movie Battle of Gods about base Goku being weaker than 100% Frieza.

    1% Frieza easily one-shotted planet Vegeta. However, 100% Frieza is at best a Star buster (many people believe him to be large planet only, but I'm giving him a huge benefit of doubt). The energy levels required to destroy a star are stated right hereThe maximum energy to destroy a star is 10 XKt of TNT (note: this is Large Star Level, which Frieza is nowhere close to).

    10 XKt = 10 x 10^33 tons of TNT => 10^34 tons of TNT

    This energy output is greater than BoG base Goku's. Taking into account Goku's SSJ3 transformation, which has a 400x multiplier (for the uninitiated: 50x for SSJ1, 2x for SSJ2, 4x for SSJ3), the resulting energy output could from SSJ3 Goku would be at most 400x

    => 400 x 10^34 = '4 x 10^36 'tons of TNT



    '4 x 10^36 << '5.09 x 10^37

    So there you have it, people. Even after giving BoG base Goku a massive energy boost (by taking him to be Large Star Level, which he clearly is NOT), SSJ3 Goku is nowhere near solar system busting. Unless somebody is stupid enough to argue that Cell surpasses BoG SSJ3 Goku, I think it's safe to presume that Cell is NOT a solar system buster.

    Note: Please check for any corrections and feel free to point them out.

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    • I should really stay out of this, but your argument seems reasonable enough.

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    • 4*10^36 tons= (4*10^36)*4.184*10^9 (j)=1.6736*10^43 (j)

      seems fine to me...also a nice and creative way, DBZ fans should learn from you and try to calc stuff instead of throwing vane logic...

      good job.

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    • @Antvasima: Your support is highly reassuring and gracefully accepted, Antvasima. I knew I could count on you.

      @Illuminati478: Thank you, my friend. You were the one who introduced me to the world of calcing, and just like you said, its an interesting and fun place to be.

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    • it is easier to convince people when you use math and physics, since they are much harder to disprove then simple logic, to be honest, i used to be a Yoruichi statement kind of guy, then SeiryuShin told me to show him a calc or get out, so i did...and from then i am calcing myself...

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    • In that thread started by Stefano4444, I pointed out that the Super Saiyan Multipliers you used here came from either the Daizenshuu or the Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide which was based on the Daizenshuu. Considering that the Daizenshuu is considered canon only to the anime and states Cell as a solar system buster, can we regard these multipliers as valid?

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    • i don't know if they are canon or not, but for what its worth they did give us a ceiling fro pre BOG DBZ, truly though are they legit or not? is the daizenshuu canon or not? this is truly an important issue here...

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    • Looks good. I never really believed solar system Cell. Seemed BS to me. 

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    • Best thing iv'e read in awhile~

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    • @Newraptor & Jayslice: Thank you for the support guys

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    • As long as we can agree that he can blow up the sun (Which WOULD result in "blowing away" the Solar System, albeit through an indirect chain reaction) we're ok.

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    • Tsk! He invites people to point out possible errors in his calc, and I do exactly that, but he ignores me and instead basks in the praise bestowed upon him by others. Then he goes and edits the page on Cell, citing this calc as "proof" without even addressing any of the issues brought up by others first.

      Kavpeny, if you wanted to calc this just to score points with others and boost your ego, you could at least be honest about it, instead of portraying yourself as "rational" and pretending to be open to criticism.

      @GohanLSSJ2: I never saw what the difference was between destroying stars and destroying solar systems. A star contains nearly all of the mass of it's system, so anyone who can destroy a star can almost certainly destroy it with the rest of the matter in it's system stacked on top of it. This wiki (and by extension, the OBD) seems to define solar system busting as being capable of producing a blast both large enough and strong enough to envelope and destroy all the matter in the solar system, rather than simply the sum of the GBE of all the matter in the solar system. We're not asking that solar system busters be able to bust an empty space, are we, since that is what would be left once one busts the equivalent of the sum of the GBE of all the matter in the solar system?

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    • Well, you do have a point, but the way that I have understood the tradition regarding how these things are defined, somebody must be able to destroy a solar system in an explosion that encompasses the entire system at once.

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    • I apologize for not coming clean earlier, Unclechairman.

      You must excuse me for not replying to your message earlier. Although your argument is a pretty good one (and a valid one) at that, I am more suprised (pleasantly, that is) about how you are actually pointing out logical errors in my argument instead of raving like a fanboy, which is what most DBZ fanboys generally do.

      Nevertheless, enough of that. It is true that all the figures of the Super Saiyan multipliers that I mentioned earlier were stated in Daizenshuu 7 and Super Exciting Guide as well.

      I have used the multipliers from the latest canon source material, the Battle of Gods special booklet which is present in the Battle of Gods Limited Blu-ray edition. As I have previously mentioned, I consider Battle of Gods to be canon to the series and the special booklet is the latest and most apt powerscaling.

      It is from there that I have received the 50/100/400 multiplier figures. Also, the Super Saiyan God multiplier is listed as '???' in the booklet.


      To be honest, these figures are almost correct logically as well.

      The multiplier for Super Saiyan is simply based on the fact that Goku with a Kaio-ken x20 was unable to overcome Frieza's 50%, while he was overpowering (albeit minorly) his 100% form.

      I have no logic which can be used to quantify Super Saiyan 2, since battle powers fell out of usage from the manga itself.

      The energy stolen from Gohan as Super Saiyan 2 seemed to fill less than half of Majin Buu's energy requirement, whom Super Saiyan 3 Goku could supposedly beat, hence the four times multiplier I guess.

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    • I'm a tad confused. We're going off the guidebooks to debunk his claim through math and multipliers, YET the same guidebooks being used to debunk him state that he CAN bust the solar system? This is becoming a huge circle jerk of bewilderment...

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    • @Lord Kavpeny: I apologize for my rant in my previous post, then. I've never heard of this special booklet, but if it is to be taken as canon, then I suppose these multipliers are canon as well, although it begs the question of whether other databooks are to be taken as reliable and canon sources, and what standards to judge them by, and the OBD (from which this wiki's standards are largely derived) has a policy of considering most databooks as secondary canon.

      @Sheoth: This was my issue before Kavpeny mentioned he used a different source than the Daizenshuu or Super Exciting Guide. If we take the information from them as canon, than this entire calc would have become pointless since most general databooks for Dragon Ball concur that Cell is a solar system buster.

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    • @unclechairman I think even a website for kai and a video game for say cell can SS bust (the game hevaly hints at I with cells kamehameha destrouing the earth and even overc comming and desintigrateing the sun) not anything debunking the calc just somthing I wanted to point out

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    • @Dbfan and critic: The video game you're referring to is Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Botouden. We can't really rely on video games as canon evidence, though, considering by games' logic, Yamcha>SSJ4 Gogeta, since he can beat Gogeta in the games. Furthermore, in the opening of Budokai Tenkaichi 3, Broly is shown fighting on par with Super Gogeta, despite all logic dictating that Gogeta is far superior to him. As for the Kai website, that could be used as evidence for Anime Cell being a solar system buster, but then again, I think Anime Cell is already generally considered to be a solar system buster.

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    • @uncelchairman I wasnt trying to use the video game as cannon evidence just mentioning it sorry if it seemed like that whAts I was trying to do

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    • Okay, then.

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    • @Sheoth: Sorry if there is any confusion. The point I was making is that this Special Booklet is bundled along with Battle of Gods, which I consider canon to the manga. The Super Saiyan multipliers from that data book match those of the ones from Daizenshuu 7 and Super Exciting Guide. So the guidebooks used to debunk Cell are different from the ones which state him as a Solar System buster, although the particular data they have (i.e. Super Saiyan multipliers) is the same.

      While the Super Saiyan multipliers are true, the Cell busting from Daizenshuu 7 and the Super Exciting Guide should not be considered true simply because the Super Saiyan multipliers from them and the BoG guidebook are same. To do so would be to use the fallacy of circular reasoning.


      @Unclechairman: I'm glad to see you're such a rational person. This is the “Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods” Special Limited Edition Box. Scroll down to Special Booklet section. From page 008 onwards, the power levels, along with the Super Saiyan multipliers are listed.

      As I mentioned previously, the gist of it is 50/100/400 for SS 1/2/3, along with '???' for SS God. After this revelation, are you convinced with the calc?

      Additionally, I already consider the databooks canon for the anime, since the anime characters are stronger than the manga ones. In my book, both the anime and other databooks fall into secondary canon for the DBZ franchise, and hence could be used as primary canon material reference with respect to each other.

      Another thing I would like to add, is that you probably didn't check out the external link posted in the calc (this one), which explains the difference between energy required for Solar System busting and Star busting. Please check it out to solve any doubts about the difference between Tier 4-C and 4-B.


      @Dbfan and critic: I appreciate your enthusiasm, my friend. However, this thread is solely for debunking Cell as a Solar System buster, so let's stick to the matter at hand please. If some interesting information about DBZ pops up, feel free to post it on my Message Wall.


      @GohanLSSJ2: Sorry for replying so late. Yes, I have clearly put Cell at Star Level. Although I don't think destroying the sun would result in "blowing away" the Solar System. I do believe though, that the Solar System would be collapse instead, due to the anomaly of unbalanced gravitational forces within the Solar System. In my opinion, Super Perfect Cell and Gohan SS 2 were the first true Star busters in the series, and hence capable of indirectly destroying the solar system.

      Agree or disagree?

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    • I disagree, there are many officials sources that state that Cell was a Solar System buster. Here is one of them, it's an official guide book to DBZ. (Sorry for it not being in English you can find a translation for it online.) : http://media.animevice.com/uploads/2/20411/799510-2963119_3482324890_gohan.jpg

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    • The guide book is only cannon to the anime (Just saying it So yall don't have too)

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    • @Roun12: That's one of the databooks we were talking about that we consider secondary canon. I believe it was called a "Film Anime Comics" guide. We can use it as a source for the anime, but not the manga and primary canon, which is what we're discussing.

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    • now I dont really want to escalate this, but when beerus said that frieza is stronger than base goku, goku wasnt in a fight

      we have repeatedly seen that dbz characters tend to keep their power very low outside fights

      heck, even in a fight, goku tends to raise his power only at the moment of attack or defnse. 

      so, since goku wasnt in a battle yet, he was very likely powered down, and hence in a supressed state within his base form, the same way beerus was suppressed before going head to head with ssj god goku

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      now I dont really want to escalate this, but when beerus said that frieza is stronger than base goku, goku wasnt in a fight

      we have repeatedly seen that dbz characters tend to keep their power very low outside fights

      heck, even in a fight, goku tends to raise his power only at the moment of attack or defnse. 

      so, since goku wasnt in a battle yet, he was very likely powered down, and hence in a supressed state within his base form, the same way beerus was suppressed before going head to head with ssj god goku

      Exactly (this fact is like to be forgot), also to be honest, even Goku Base Form (Buu Saga) was already more stronger than Freezer 100% and the Kaioshin.

      1. Goku was able to lift and handle the Z Sword, without became SSj.

      2. Gohan, to extract the sword, had to transform into SSj2, and to train with the sword in SSj (i'm not sure that was train in SSj2).

      3. Gohan SSj2 although weaker than when he was a teen, was strong enough to deal with Dabura.

      4. Goku says that Dabura should be at least powerful as Perfect Cell (i don't think he was referring to Super Perfect Cell).

      5. Supreme Kai says that every kaioshin are 1000 times more powerful than Frieza and that each could kill Frieza in one shot at full power.

      6. Kibito was not able to lift the Z Sword.

      Doing a few calculations, if all the Kaioshin was 1000 much more powerful than Frieza in base form (that is at least Large Planet Level), then they should be at least star busters.

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    • @stenfano actually gohan transformed to super sayain 1 and goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword (more so then gohan)

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      now I dont really want to escalate this, but when beerus said that frieza is stronger than base goku, goku wasnt in a fight

      we have repeatedly seen that dbz characters tend to keep their power very low outside fights

      heck, even in a fight, goku tends to raise his power only at the moment of attack or defnse. 

      so, since goku wasnt in a battle yet, he was very likely powered down, and hence in a supressed state within his base form, the same way beerus was suppressed before going head to head with ssj god goku

      Exactly (this fact is like to be forgot), also to be honest, even Goku Base Form (Buu Saga) was already more stronger than Freezer 100% and the Kaioshin.

      1. Goku was able to lift and handle the Z Sword, without became SSj.

      2. Gohan, to extract the sword, had to transform into SSj2, and to train with the sword in SSj (i'm not sure that was train in SSj2).

      3. Gohan SSj2 although weaker than when he was a teen, was strong enough to deal with Dabura.

      4. Goku says that Dabura should be at least powerful as Perfect Cell (i don't think he was referring to Super Perfect Cell).

      5. Supreme Kai says that every kaioshin are 1000 times more powerful than Frieza and that each could kill Frieza in one shot at full power.

      6. Kibito was not able to lift the Z Sword.

      Doing a few calculations, if all the Kaioshin was 1000 much more powerful than Frieza in base form (that is at least Large Planet Level), then they should be at least star busters.

      Also there are to take into account (and we should don't ignore) all the power ups and transformations during the Android Saga and the Cell Saga.

      And this is my respons of Illuminati478 that you forgot, if really Planet Vegeta (even if would be very improbable) has actually the same size of Earth, this mean that density would be insanely high.

      The Stardestroyer unfortunately only takes into account diameter and gravity in his calculations, but i bet if the site would include even the density, the low levels would be even more higher (just see the Kai Planet example, that has a density higher than the Sun core).

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    • Dbfan and critic wrote:
      @stenfano actually gohan transformed to super sayain 1 and goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword (more so then gohan)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiUMMBNcxo

      I'm pretty sure that he was in SSj2.

      Yeah, Goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword, but the same was for Gohan initially.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapaFTF-JFc

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:
      Dbfan and critic wrote:
      @stenfano actually gohan transformed to super sayain 1 and goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword (more so then gohan)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiUMMBNcxo

      I'm pretty sure that he was in SSj2.

      Yeah, Goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword, but the same was for Gohan initially.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapaFTF-JFc

      So is probable that Frieza 100% <<<<<<<<< Kaioshin <<<<<< Gohan base form (Buu Saga) < Goku base form (Buu Saga)

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:
      Dbfan and critic wrote:
      @stenfano actually gohan transformed to super sayain 1 and goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword (more so then gohan)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiUMMBNcxo

      I'm pretty sure that he was in SSj2.

      Yeah, Goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword, but the same was for Gohan initially.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapaFTF-JFc

      http://z3.ifrm.com/37/16/0/p196463/118.jpg

      The strength difference between Gohan and Goku before the Zeta-Training was not so big, but Goku is likely the strongest. Goku obviously, uses full effort to hold the sword since he struggles to lift it nor to swing it properly without falling of balance. 

      http://z3.ifrm.com/37/16/0/p196458/038.jpg

      You may ask, why has that got to do with "full effort". Easy actually. Gohan´s full effort was enough to swing the sword, not as much as Goku but at least once. While Goku on the above picture seems to struggle he at least had an strength advantage over Gohan during that time, since he was still able to swing the sword more then Gohan.

      http://z3.ifrm.com/37/16/0/p196459/067.jpg

      Again. Gohan trains with his Super-Saiyan to gain the strength he needs to train with it properly.

      http://z3.ifrm.com/37/16/0/p196460/098.jpg

      Gohan is now strong enough in base, to lift it like his Super-Saiyan state.

      http://z3.ifrm.com/37/16/0/p196462/125.jpg

      And here we are, Gohan now has the SKILL and the STRENGTH to lift the sword properly and even beyond he mastered it as it seems.

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:
      Stefano4444 wrote:
      The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      now I dont really want to escalate this, but when beerus said that frieza is stronger than base goku, goku wasnt in a fight

      we have repeatedly seen that dbz characters tend to keep their power very low outside fights

      heck, even in a fight, goku tends to raise his power only at the moment of attack or defnse. 

      so, since goku wasnt in a battle yet, he was very likely powered down, and hence in a supressed state within his base form, the same way beerus was suppressed before going head to head with ssj god goku

      Exactly (this fact is like to be forgot), also to be honest, even Goku Base Form (Buu Saga) was already more stronger than Freezer 100% and the Kaioshin.

      1. Goku was able to lift and handle the Z Sword, without became SSj.

      2. Gohan, to extract the sword, had to transform into SSj2, and to train with the sword in SSj (i'm not sure that was train in SSj2).

      3. Gohan SSj2 although weaker than when he was a teen, was strong enough to deal with Dabura.

      4. Goku says that Dabura should be at least powerful as Perfect Cell (i don't think he was referring to Super Perfect Cell).

      5. Supreme Kai says that every kaioshin are 1000 times more powerful than Frieza (i do not know whether it has refers to its base form or final form) and that each could kill Frieza in one shot at full power.

      6. Kibito was not able to lift the Z Sword.

      Doing a few calculations, if all the Kaioshin was 1000 much more powerful than Frieza in base form (that is at least Large Planet Level), then they should be at least star busters.

      Also there are to take into account (and we should don't ignore) all the power ups and transformations during the Android Saga and the Cell Saga.

      And this is my respons of Illuminati478 that you forgot, if really Planet Vegeta (even if would be very improbable) has actually the same size of Earth, this mean that density would be insanely high.

      The Stardestroyer unfortunately only takes into account diameter and gravity in his calculations, but i bet if the site would include even the density, the low levels would be even more higher (just see the Kai Planet example, that has a density higher than the Sun core).

      Also, look at this that is from Daizenshuu:

      http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/1226/556919-07-038-c_super.gif

      This could show that Planet Vegeta is actually bigger than Earth.

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    • Stefano4444 wrote:
      Stefano4444 wrote:
      Dbfan and critic wrote:
      @stenfano actually gohan transformed to super sayain 1 and goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword (more so then gohan)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiUMMBNcxo

      I'm pretty sure that he was in SSj2.

      Yeah, Goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword, but the same was for Gohan initially.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapaFTF-JFc

      So is probable that Frieza 100% >>>>>>>>> Kaioshin >>>>>> Gohan base form (Buu Saga) >> Goku base form (Buu Saga)

      i think u mean

      100 percent frieza <<<<<<<< Kaioshin <<<<<< Gohan base at buu saga << goku base at buu saga

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    • What? He couldn't "sense" Goku's Ki accurately? That's a really weak argument, guys. Beerus isn't one of Frieza's henchmen, he's the God of Destruction of DBZ Universe 7. He's not going to be fooled by Goku "not being powered up".

      That method of deception was valid only if somebody was using a measuring device for measuring somebody's power level (for eg: a Scouter, or Dr. Gero's sensors). All people who have been shown to be able to sense Ki have not been fooled by the power level disguising trick. Granted, Beerus may not have accounted for a Ki amplification technique like Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan, but I'm pretty sure he was able to sense the entirety of the Ki possessed by Goku in his base form.


      Off-topic: Now, most of you might be feeling underwhelmed by Goku's power progression throughout the series. You may be feeling: "What? He only became (less than) 50 times stronger by the end of the Buu saga?"

      Yes, his BoG base power does seem rather low, but I assure you, it actually an incredible figure. Want to know why? Simple example: Perfect Cell was toying around with Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan. Yet Super Saiyan 2 Gohan absolutely stomped him. And that was with just a 2x power up. When you look at it that way, 50x is a pretty accurate figure, no?

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      Stefano4444 wrote:
      Stefano4444 wrote:
      Dbfan and critic wrote:
      @stenfano actually gohan transformed to super sayain 1 and goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword (more so then gohan)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiUMMBNcxoI'm pretty sure that he was in SSj2.

      Yeah, Goku was haveing trouble lifting the sword, but the same was for Gohan initially.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapaFTF-JFc

      So is probable that Frieza 100% >>>>>>>>> Kaioshin >>>>>> Gohan base form (Buu Saga) >> Goku base form (Buu Saga)
      i think u mean

      100 percent frieza <<<<<<<< Kaioshin <<<<<< Gohan base at buu saga << goku base at buu saga

      Yes, my bad.

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    • Dbfan and critic wrote:
      The guide book is only cannon to the anime

      (Just saying it So yall don't have too)

      But there is a guide book that is just about the manga that actually conferm that Super Perfect Cell is a solar system buster:

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:33918

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    • Lord Kavpeny wrote:
      Off-topic: Now, most of you might be feeling underwhelmed by Goku's power progression throughout the series. You may be feeling: "What? He only became (less than) 50 times stronger by the end of the Buu saga?"

      Yes, his BoG base power does seem rather low, but I assure you, it actually an incredible figure. Want to know why? Simple example: Perfect Cell was toying around with Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan. Yet Super Saiyan 2 Gohan absolutely stomped him. And that was with just a 2x power up. When you look at it that way, 50x is a pretty accurate figure, no?

      I have trouble beliveing that Super Saiyan 2 only gave a 2x power-up. Perfect Cell had suppressed his power throughout all of Goku's and nearly all of Gohan's entire fight, and still held a great advantage. When Gohan went Super Saiyan 2, however, he was so strong that he was not only stronger than a fully powered Perfect Cell, he completely dominated him, casually tanked or countered all of his strongest attacks, and later even held off and eventually overpowered Super Perfect Cell's strongest attack. This suggests to me more than simply a two times multiplier. Also take into account that Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan are likely multipliers as well, and they too were no match for a suppressed Perfect Cell.

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    • Unclechairman wrote:
      Lord Kavpeny wrote:
      Off-topic: Now, most of you might be feeling underwhelmed by Goku's power progression throughout the series. You may be feeling: "What? He only became (less than) 50 times stronger by the end of the Buu saga?"

      Yes, his BoG base power does seem rather low, but I assure you, it actually an incredible figure. Want to know why? Simple example: Perfect Cell was toying around with Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan. Yet Super Saiyan 2 Gohan absolutely stomped him. And that was with just a 2x power up. When you look at it that way, 50x is a pretty accurate figure, no?

      I have trouble beliveing that Super Saiyan 2 only gave a 2x power-up. Perfect Cell had suppressed his power throughout all of Goku's and nearly all of Gohan's entire fight, and still held a great advantage. When Gohan went Super Saiyan 2, however, he was so strong that he was not only stronger than a fully powered Perfect Cell, he completely dominated him, casually tanked or countered all of his strongest attacks, and later even held off and eventually overpowered Super Perfect Cell's strongest attack. This suggests to me more than simply a two times multiplier. Also take into account that Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan are likely multipliers as well, and they too were no match for a suppressed Perfect Cell.

      The is the fact that Power Levels are not linear, they are likely more exponential, so the SSJ2 can actually be more than 2 time.

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    • Lord Kavpeny wrote:
      What? He couldn't "sense" Goku's Ki accurately? That's a really weak argument, guys. Beerus isn't one of Frieza's henchmen, he's the God of Destruction of DBZ Universe 7. He's not going to be fooled by Goku "not being powered up".

      That method of deception was valid only if somebody was using a measuring device for measuring somebody's power level (for eg: a Scouter, or Dr. Gero's sensors). All people who have been shown to be able to sense Ki have not been fooled by the power level disguising trick. Granted, Beerus may not have accounted for a Ki amplification technique like Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan, but I'm pretty sure he was able to sense the entirety of the Ki possessed by Goku in his base form.


      Off-topic: Now, most of you might be feeling underwhelmed by Goku's power progression throughout the series. You may be feeling: "What? He only became (less than) 50 times stronger by the end of the Buu saga?"

      Yes, his BoG base power does seem rather low, but I assure you, it actually an incredible figure. Want to know why? Simple example: Perfect Cell was toying around with Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan. Yet Super Saiyan 2 Gohan absolutely stomped him. And that was with just a 2x power up. When you look at it that way, 50x is a pretty accurate figure, no?

      That does make sense. He also didn't account for the 3 years of training for the androids, the HyperBolic Time Chamber training, and the 7 years in the other world training with literal Gods. It's obvious that Goku was holding back his full power when he first saw Beerus.

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    • @Unclechairman: I know how hard it is to believe, man. I was shocked myself the first time I came across the multiplier. However, I have come to a crude understanding of how it would work. Regardless of whether it is believable or not, we have a canonical statement of it being 2x multiplier, and no feats or powerscalings to disagree with it, except that it doesn't "feel" so, which is not strong enough counter-proof.

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    • @Roun12: No, it wasn't. A straight up statement "you aren't strong enough" from Beerus will be accepted as true if the best argument you have is "Goku was not powered up". That's the same bullshit save-face logic every Goku fanboy gives in order to counter-prove a low showing, which makes them look absolutely idiotic. Try to post some real, reasonable questions next time like Unclechairman, and I'll reply with equal reason and rationale.

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    • look

      beerus cannot sense someones's full potential, he can only sense how much ki goku is releazing, and goku, like other z fighters has a habit of hiding his ki outside fights, so beerus could only sense goku at his lowered state

      so, unlike the soldiers, beerus did not rely on technology to sense goku's power, he can use his senses to sense goku's present state of power, and we all know that z fighters keep their ppower down during fights 

      so beeruas had no way of knowing goku's full power when goku is supressed outisde fights 

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    • @The Living Tribunal1: I must respectfully disagree, my friend. Whether or not Beerus is capable of measuring a person's full Ki, or just the current Ki level of a fighter is as of yet unexplained and I doubt it ever will be. In my opinion though, I still believe a God of Destruction who has countless fighting experience and is evidently a trained martial artist would not be fooled by a deception so trivial.

      In other words, base Goku being stronger than Freeza is mere conjecture based on an uncertainty which will almost certainly never be explained, and cannot be determined under any circumstance. On the other hand, base Goku being weaker than Frieza is a fact supported by an unambiguous statement from Beerus.

      You know which is more reliable between a fan-based conjecture and a canon-based fact, don't you? If the fact cannot be disproved by anything other than canon facts or canon powerscaling (NOT hypothetical fan interpretations, conjectures, "feelings" and definitely not shitty YouTube videos), I will consider it to remain a fact and that valid argument will hold. In effect, I can and will continue to use that fact for calculation purposes without any disputes regarding the source of the calc.

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    • well, no one has been able to measure full ki, only ki at the momet so far, so beerus being able to measure full power base goku's ki would be an assumption

      it would be absurd for goku to not get 50 times stronger even after tons of training and zenkai boosts

      here (and with hence the power of the dbz verse0 , i think we can agree to disagree

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    • Hmm...no one measuring Ki till date has been a God of Destruction with millenia of fighting techniques and combat experience under their belt, so who knows?

      No, only base Goku gets 50 times stronger around BoG. Overall, Goku also learns about SS2 and SS3 (BoG SS3 Goku is 400 times stronger than SS Goku in Frieza saga). Just in case you were wondering, that's a HUGE multiplier, considering how OP SS Goku was compared to Frieza saga.

      But let's be civil about our differences. I will agree to disagree with you on DBZ power levels, okay? If you were to assume that BoG base Goku is weaker than 100% Frieza, would you agree with the calc then?

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    • my assumtpion means nothing since i am not a staff of the wiki

      anyway, i do recall z fighters getting stronger throughout the seris- i mean during the 3 years gap goku got somewhat stronger, then veegta got a lot stronger after the hyperbolic time chamber training- even without grade 2 super saiyan, there are other instances as well

      so, i have my own stance about dbz power, and it conflicting with anyone else's stance does not matter- since i am not an authority

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    • "Now I will proceed to calculate BoG SSJ3 Goku's energy output. Bills states in the movie Battle of Gods about base Goku being weaker than 100% Frieza." 

      This was Goku's stated base resting strength there is a large difference between battle ready and resting strength Goku went from 5,000 to 90,000 in an instant once he started actually fighting in the GInyu arc considering he has shown that he can casually jump 18 times in strength if his resting base strength is slightly weaker than 100% Freeza he could easily jump from say 100,000,000 to 1,800,000,000 the instant he decides to start fighting considering Goten and Trunks were fighting on par with beings stated to be on Freeza's level in base in "Hey Yo Son Goku and his Friends Return!" a full power base Goku would equally devastate him. 

      Also lastley you are assuming power level scales lineraly with DC when it isn't shown too at all early Saiyajin saga Piccolo with a power level of 403 completely destroyed the moon the current GBE of the moon is 29.6 Exatons or 29,600,000,000,000 MT

      Saiyan Saga Vegeta was capable of turning the earth to dust with a power level of 18,000 the current GBE of the earth is 57.3 Zettatons or 57,000,000,000,000,000 MTThe difference between Vegeta and Piccolo's power level is roughly 44 times however the difference in their respective DC ability is 1925 times. 

      As you can see this isn't linear at all as it shows a near 50 times increase equats to a near 2,000 times increase in destructive ability.So in reality the difference in DC between SSJ3 Goku and Base Goku would be closer to 80,000 times rather than 400 times which would give us and the result would be even higher because Goku did infact surpass Freeza 100% in base as Goten and Trunks are shown as near equals to Freeza in their respective base forms unless you wanna argue Goku is weaker than Goten and Trunks.

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    • @SaberLily015 are you serious? first of all, stupid and unusable power logic is stupid and unusable, or are you saying that every regular human (which have the power-level of 5) in the dbzverse can casually continent bust?, you tried to set up a liniar formula (which is rich, since you yourself said power levels aren't liniear) when they obviously aren't, not to mention you need two totally different cases that give you the same multiplier, for it to be usable, and considering that the DBZverse lack feats in generaly, finding a feat that would confirm that liniar formula of yours is literaly a practice in futility.... 

      secondly, yeah you proved that toriyama is as inconsitent as any other mangaka, good work... seriously though, if there is any problem with all this mess, then its an outlier on trunks and gotens part not on goku's, especially since it would be rediculous if beerus, who is literally the god of the verse, wouldn't be able to sense or at least figure out that goku hides some of his base strength, especially when that bambling idiot Captain Ginyu was able to do so very easily after a mere glance, and that was using a scouter, not even ki sensing, more over instead of powering up regularly after beerus's statement, goku resorts to the ssj transformations, further proving the point that it was his full power in base form...

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    • Illuminati478 wrote:
      @SaberLily015 are you serious? first of all, stupid and unusable power logic is stupid and unusable, or are you saying that every regular human (which have the power-level of 5) in the dbzverse can casually continent bust?, you tried to set up a liniar formula (which is rich, since you yourself said power levels aren't liniear) when they obviously aren't, not to mention you need two totally different cases that give you the same multiplier, for it to be usable, and considering that the DBZverse lack feats in generaly, finding a feat that would confirm that liniar formula of yours is literaly a practice in futility.... 

      secondly, yeah you proved that toriyama is as inconsitent as any other mangaka, good work... seriously though, if there is any problem with all this mess, then its an outlier on trunks and gotens part not on goku's, especially since it would be rediculous if beerus, who is literally the god of the verse, wouldn't be able to sense or at least figure out that goku hides some of his base strength, especially when that bambling idiot Captain Ginyu was able to do so very easily after a mere glance, and that was using a scouter, not even ki sensing, more over instead of powering up regularly after beerus's statement, goku resorts to the ssj transformations, further proving the point that it was his full power in base form...

      Regular human can't manipulate the KI, they need training to do and if Muten need years to create something like a kamehameha, then you can see with even if they have a power levels of 5, the difference of power is still massively big.

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    • The Buu saga actually has moments that put the Base Saiyans above Frieza.

      1. They agree not to use SSJ at the tournament, yet nobody is even concerned about fighting Piccolo and #18. Vegeta even quotes he'll still win and nobody comments on this, nor does anyone say its a unfair advantage for Piccolo, making it clear all Saiyans believe they can at least put up a fight in Base.


      2. Dabura is ordered to eliminate all but the strongest 3 and Kaioshin, the 3 Saiyans are left standing. Later its shown they knew nothing of the SSJ form, so that power couldn't have been taken into consideration. The only question is if he sensed their power before arriving or after (meaning before or after they starting suppressing, if after, then this point is meaningless)


      3. Kaioshin stated he was 1,000 times more powerful than Frieza and yet he was scared of Goku in his Super Saiyan form which is only a 50 times multiplier from his base power.

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    • Roun12 wrote:
      The Buu saga actually has moments that put the Base Saiyans above Frieza.

      1. They agree not to use SSJ at the tournament, yet nobody is even concerned about fighting Piccolo and #18. Vegeta even quotes he'll still win and nobody comments on this, nor does anyone say its a unfair advantage for Piccolo, making it clear all Saiyans believe they can at least put up a fight in Base.


      2. Dabura is ordered to eliminate all but the strongest 3 and Kaioshin, the 3 Saiyans are left standing. Later its shown they knew nothing of the SSJ form, so that power couldn't have been taken into consideration. The only question is if he sensed their power before arriving or after (meaning before or after they starting suppressing, if after, then this point is meaningless)


      3. Kaioshin stated he was 1,000 times more powerful than Frieza and yet he was scared of Goku in his Super Saiyan form which is only a 50 times multiplier from his base power.

      1. You actually right, i forgot about this, Piccolo (after the fusion with Kami) was at the same level of Android 17, that was stronger than Mirai Trunks SSJ that was stronger than Frieza 100%.

      3. Actually somebody said that 1000 times quote was only in the Anime, but still there is the fact that the Supreme Kai said that all the Kaioshin were able to kill Freezer in one blow.

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    • BoG base Goku is stronger than Freeza, when Goku is in his base form he always supress his power and Beerus only understand how Goku beats Freeza when he goes Super Saiyan 3 and Goku obviously is FAR stronger than Freeza at Super Saiyan 1 i think that even at buu saga base Goku is stronger than 100% freeza but this is another debate.

      And even if this calc is correct we can still say that this is an outlier because Cell as an solar system buster is confirmed in the official manga and in various official guides of dragon ball , battle of gods is full of inconsistences like Bulma and Mai age for example.

      if people from this wiki consider master roshi moon feat as an outlier and this is in the canon manga so why not consider those battle of gods statements as outliers?

      about bills ki sensing man the kaioshins and the kais are also gods and they cant say people true potentials by just ki sensing so why bills( kais and kaioshins also live and train for milenias) will know goku full potential by just ki sensing? an example ? at yo son goku and his friends return ova (that is canon to the manga) tarble scan goku power and he said that he cant beat abo and cado that are at first form freeza level goku is obviously supressing his power at that time or you think that goku at that time is weaker than first form freeza ?

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    • @Rafaeltavares07

      "BoG base Goku is stronger than Freeza, when Goku is in his base form he always supress his power"

      Any proof whatsoever? There's nothing to suggest that Goku was suppressing his power. On the contrary, when he transformed into a SSJ later, he never powered up in base state, which suugests that he was completely powered up in base state.

      Beerus is a God of Destruction, it's more than likely he can sense base Goku's entire ki (suppressed or otherwise).


      "and Beerus only understand how Goku beats Freeza when he goes Super Saiyan 3 and Goku obviously is FAR stronger than Freeza at Super Saiyan 1"

      Beerus is already aware of Goku's transformations prior to their engagement, courtesy of Whis, hence your statement is both incorrect and invalid.

      Second part of your statement is true, yet redundant, since even Frieza saga SSJ Goku is stronger than 100% Frieza. It doesn't make anything else you say correct, though.


      "i think that even at buu saga base Goku is stronger than 100% freeza but this is another debate."

      I'll be very frank with you, nobody gives a damn what you "think". See, that's the problem with all of you DBZ wankers, you never have either mathematical or logical proof (which are universally standard). All your decisions are based on what you "think", which is completely subjective and open to unending debate. Unless you have proper proof for whatever you "think", keep your thoughts to yourself.


      "And even if this calc is correct we can still say that this is an outlier because Cell as an solar system buster is confirmed in the official manga and in various official guides of dragon ball , battle of gods is full of inconsistences like Bulma and Mai age for example.

      if people from this wiki consider master roshi moon feat as an outlier and this is in the canon manga so why not consider those battle of gods statements as outliers?"

      We are considering canon statements as outliers, just the ones from Cell though. As for BoG inconsistences, the age inconsistency has nothing to do with VS Battles wiki, so it's yet again entirely superfluous.

      However, Mai (and the Pilaf gang's) age was explained as the end result of a wish, while Bulma lied about her age (middle-aged women do that quite often). Regardless, it's irrelevant not only to this thread, but this entire wiki. Take your "inconsistency" discussions to the General Forum board.


      "about bills ki sensing man the kaioshins and the kais are also gods and they cant say people true potentials by just ki sensing so why bills( kais and kaioshins also live and train for milenias) will know goku full potential by just ki sensing? an example ?"

      Again with the presumptions. Where does it state that both Kais and Beerus have the same skill set? Just because they're both Gods? What sort of idiotic logic is that? Are Goku's and Vegeta's skill sets same just because they're Saiyans? Ans: Yes, some (like physiology) are same, while others (such as Ki techniques) are different. Sad to say, but your logical presumptions are both ridiculous and flawed.

      Regardless, I said that Beerus, as a God of Destruction, is able to sense the current level of Ki of a person, not their true/full potential. Stop twisting my words to suit your convenience.


      "at yo son goku and his friends return ova (that is canon to the manga) tarble scan goku power and he said that he cant beat abo and cado that are at first form freeza level goku is obviously supressing his power at that time or you think that goku at that time is weaker than first form freeza ?"

      Like I already pointed out, it has been repeatedly shown in the manga that the scouter system is flawed since it cannot determine the repressed Ki of an individual. Yet those who can sense Ki, such as the Z Fighters, have never been fooled by that technique. Thanks for augmenting my previous statements.


      I would like to add that I made this thread to check the validity of this calc. Based off all your simplistic arguments, it's pretty easy to conclude that you haven't even bothered going through the calc. In that case, leave this thread and come back only when you have something productive to offer to this thread.

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    • I was not talking about mai child apparence but the fact that she claims to have 42 years old if she truly have 42 she should have 12 in the classic db and she dont have this age in db

      and again calculations dont turn what is canon stated in daizenshuu simple hyperboles 

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    • The databook wasn't even written by akira toriyama it was done by toei staff members.

      Akira just said it existed, thats it.

      Sorry to say this but akira doesn't  really care about DBZ as much as you think. Even after he re read the series for BOG he still forgot about a shit ton of content and really isnt that much more knowlegable.

      So really don't take any of his statments as serious. Now stop spaming this wikia with this DBZ wank. Its clogging it up.

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    • I know this i remember about akira saiyng that he forgot various things trought the years like yajirobe , lunch and the super saiyan 2

      but i really dont think that cell solar system statment isnt canon but i respect your opnions i will stop commenting on it I do not want to pollute the wikia

      anyway I will not change the opinions of anyone if I continue I'm just wasting my time

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    • The debate here seems to be whether or not base Goku is stronger than Frieza.

      Honestly, whether or not base Goku is stronger than Frieza wouldn't dent this calc, as I doubt he'd be so much stronger than Frieza as to make his Super Saiyan 3 form a solar system buster. This calc took base Goku as a large star buster and still came out with a less-than solar system busting Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

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    • @Unclechairman: Thank God, someone finally understood the logic behind the presumption in the calc. The power difference between Large Star level (i.e. calc assumption of base Goku) and Small Star level (i.e. level of 100% Frieza and arguably base Goku) is almost 50000 times.

      The point being, even if base Goku is 50000 times stronger than Frieza (which he is NOT), his DC is lesser than Solar System level as SSJ3, and hence Cell's DC is also less than Solar System level.

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    • Um kav Penny isn't base goku stronger then the Kai's who ehwhere said to me 1 million times stronger then Frieza or is it 1000 times stronge I can't remeber (idc about manga cell not being a SS buster I'm just fact checking)

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    • It's 1000 times stronger. But even then I believe that statement was only given in the Anime and not the manga so it would be non-canon. And I don't think that Base Goku > Supreme Kai. But this is just my opinion. 

      And this is a great calc. DBZ wankers can rage all they want but I doubt they're gonna be able to disprove this anytime soon.  

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    • That statement was a dub line, indeed.

      Supreme Kai is no where near SSj2 level. He was terrified of Dabura, who's comparable to Perfect Cell, and was tossed around just as easily as Gohan (who barely held his own against Dabura) by Fat Buu.

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    • I wrote my statement on the spur of the moment. I'll change it.  

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    • Yeah it wasn't they were a thousand times stronger, it was that any of them can kill him in a single blow.

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    • Even if they were (which they are not) I doubt that it would chnage anything. I mean this calc took Base Goku as Large Star Buster and still came out less than Solar System level for SSJ3 Goku

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    • This ain't changing anything, but I thought I'd just leave it around and see what happens...

      http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2659

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    • Super Saiyan 3 Gohan
      Super Saiyan 3 Gohan removed this reply because:
      My friend asked me to.
      05:15, June 12, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • I have decided to redo this calc in accordance with the new Attack Potency chart in order to avoid confusion. Here is the link to the revised calc.

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    • At kanzenshuu, old Japanese guidebooks were translated and it mentions that cell can destroy a solar system. At first I was mad that screw attack didn't use it, but found out the translation was in progress while the death battle was as well. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22411 There was a discussion about what Super Saiyan 2 was called BEFORE the author thought up Super Saiyan 3, so old guides were brought into the discussion. Page 147 Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form) An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System! Super Saiyan 2 used to be called Super Saiyan Grade V and it says Brolly has a different super saiyan form than all the others that's special to him. A Super Saiyan that has achieved a different evolution!! Broli appeared in the movie "Burn Up!! A Red-Hot, Raging, Super Fierce Fight". His final form resembles Super Saiyan Grade Three. But his speed is ultra first-class, and he could be called a Super Saiyan who has achieved a different evolution than Goku and the others! WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? IT MEANS THAT SCREW ATTACK MISSED SOMETHING BIG! Cell can destroy a solar system according to the people who worked with Toriyama and Toriyama himself. It’s not my opinion, the author and his staff said so. An injured super saiyan two with one arm can overpower Cell. Gohan only held back because he was afraid the earth would blow up as a side effect of him using too much energy. This means, with one hand, a super saiyan two can kill Cell.That makes a super saiyan two at least twice as strong as Cell. So that’s two supernovas of energy. Super Saiyan 3 increases that by 4 times to eight supernovas. And Super Saiyan 4 increases that by 10 times to 80 supernovas. One last thing I want to state is that Goku used teleportion under stress in the manga several times and failed while under stress only ONCE when Kid Buu blew up the earth. Goku can keep up with Superman by teleporting to his location each time. Screw attack messed up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE7IgfU-5Nw

      Also it's been revealed that the Dragon Ball gods do in fact create life, planets, and stars by providing the impetus for them. Please discuss in an intelligent manner.
      687f7c8d (1)

      see why would akira lie.

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