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  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    Kumagawa couldn't win, again.
    15:05, July 25, 2019

    Battle takes place here

    The Weakest Minus  vs The Strongest Magician

    Base Aleister

    Speed equalized

    In-Character

    They start out 20 meters apart from each other

    No Prior knowledge nor prep time

    VOTES:

    Kumagawa: 1 (Udlmaster)

    Aleister: 8 (ZacharyGrossman273, Schnee One, Paul Frank, Naeblis495, EmperorDoom25, ZackMoon1234, lapitus The Impaler, XDragnoir)

    Inconclusive:

    Aleister Crowley
    Good loser kumagawa no background by rmage76-d5sch9h
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    • Alex wins. Misogi can’t kill all his clones and Alex has a fuckton of ways to put Misogi down.

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    • Like what?

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    • The Coolest Water Bottle
      The Coolest Water Bottle removed this reply because:
      bad edit.
      14:26, July 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Schnee One wrote:

      Hey! what's your opinion on this match? is it a stomp?

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    • Not sure.

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    • What clones?

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    • There are 1.2 Billion Aleister clones across the entire planet and a new one is created every 4 seconds.

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    • Well if the first aleister/ original didn't exist wouldn't the clones disappear as well? Also are the clones part of his power set?

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    • The clones are literally always there and his consciousness is divided and cloned amongst all of them

      There is no original.

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    • Since Kumagawa's AF is Conceptual, everything that is related to his Conceptual self is erased, clones of "him" could be counted.

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    • It is?

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    • The clones would definently not be counted because that is not how conceptual erasure works

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    • They’re talking about if Alister never existed, wouldn’t the Clones disappear also, which would be logical cause and effect.

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    • Aleister had to create them so yeah true

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    • He didn't actually create them they just exist and he chooses to confine them to a single coordinate

      There is no original Crowley to erase either

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    • Okay, before he did all that, there was an original, The one before they all came along, even if we assume we’re talking about him being a kid.



      So before they existed, this original did, this is what Kumagawa would unmake, he’d make their origins nothing and wipe them all out.

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    • That's not true they literally always existed since they are all the parallel versions of Crowley

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    • Oh yeah they're alternate Crowleys

      Ignore ne

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      That's not true they literally always existed since they are all the parallel versions of Crowley

      And How did they appear in 1 place?

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    • We dunno, they just existed

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    • They are kept condensed to one coordinate so they dont run around doing stuff

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      They are kept condensed to one coordinate so they dont run around doing stuff

      And someone did this, right? Someone brought them into one spot?

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    • I guess so?

      Even if you want to say this action is undone all that means is that over a million Crowley's walk around and become Kumagawa's opponent. They weren't brought over from alternate universes or something like that

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    • Are we talking a parallel universe kinda deal?

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      I guess so?

      Even if you want to say this action is undone all that means is that over a million Crowley's walk around and become Kumagawa's opponent. They weren't brought over from alternate universes or something like that

      You did just say they’re from parellel timelines or many worlds multiverse so can you prove that? That they all come from the same universe.



      ”That's not true they literally always existed since they are all the parallel versions of Crowley”

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    • No its that every possible parallel version of Crowley's existence exists at the same time within a single universe

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    • Can you prove this?

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    • It's on his profile under Crowley's Hazards

      He didn't summon them he just confined them to a single coordinate and in order for that to work they have to all at the least be from the same universe and dimension

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    • Bump fan web image 1200x630
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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      It's on his profile under Crowley's Hazards

      He didn't summon them he just confined them to a single coordinate and in order for that to work they have to all at the least be from the same universe and dimension

      They don’t have to be, so can you prove you claim that they’re all from the same Universe?

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    • yes they are

      "There was a man. There was a woman. There was an adult. There was a child. There was a saint. There was a sinner.  
      Aleister’s generic appearance had left those who saw him with a variety of impressions, but this very strange scene looked like each of those different faces had been isolated and brought to life.  
      “My soul shined with many colors.”  
      What was this?  
      Lola Stuart’s cheeks twitched as she made some guesses.  
      “That is because I had always sealed many different possibilities within my single body. But once I released multiple versions of myself into the world, it became apparent they would only clash and I could not expect them to work together. That is why I had to bind myself and contain every version of myself to a single coordinate. So as usual, I did not think it through and regretted my actions.”  
      The group spoke.  
      “Although when I punished Fiamma of the Right and other such times, a momentarily branched-off alternative version of myself would have been observable. I appear in an instant and disappear in an instant. And not through the use of teleportation. Yes, did you never think it could be explained using the obsolete concept of faxing?”  
      “Wait a second. You mean…?”  
      “This was bound to happen from the moment I left the life support device to resolve the Karasuma Fran and Kihara Yuiitsu problems. Even if Kamijou Touma and Lola Stuart had not appeared, I would have branched out almost endlessly. This will create every version of me born from the various ‘ifs’.”  
      Smiles surrounded her.  
      And they undoubtedly belonged to the “human” named Aleister Crowley.  
      “If the number calculated out by the former Tree Diagram and proven by the Reading Thoth 78 is accurate, the number of options available to me and the number of branches to which those would lead are 1,083,092,867. In other words, that many Aleister Crowleys exist as those many possibilities."

      tho not all of them are magicians, most are

      (leaving aside parallel existing world don't exist in index, at least not at the same time, think of it like a movie projector, there are multiple story to be told but only at a time can be run)

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    • Bump

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    • Is this a decisive win for Aleister?

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    • The first quote doesn’t prove anything.

      ”Possibilities literally just proves they’re from other possibilities worlds, and “And contain every version of myself” further proves this.

      Again, backed up by “-a momentary branched off alternative version of myself”.

      ”Born from various if’s” now cements this.

      So, Kumagawa just turns the first Aleister to nothing and all those made from his “if’s” stops existing as there would never be any “if’s”

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    • That's again not how it works

      Possibilities doesn't mean they are from other possible worlds all it means is that they are any of the possibilities Crowley could have been born as

      Momentarily branching off a version of himself is how he manifested in front of Fiamma, he chooses to not condense one Crowley to the same coordinates as the others and sends it to do something

      "Born from various ifs" doesn't at all mean alternate universes

      Kumagawa turns one Aleister to nothing and the other billion hax him instead

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    • > “no”

      Actually, yes, it is, we take the more likely assumption that they are from alternate dimensions, as that is the overwhelming evidence that is being shown and described “The Many world’s” theory.

      >Possibilities doesn't mean they are from other possible worlds all it means is that they are any of the possibilities Crowley could have been born as

      And nothing shown has even remotely given any indication that they are from the same reality/Universe, so we take the Path if least assumptions.

      >Momentarily branching off a version of himself is how he manifested in front of Fiamma, he chooses to not condense one Crowley to the same coordinates as the others and sends it to do something

      Not demonstrated in the text and is merely what is being described, which literally further proves it’s just many worlds.

      >"Born from various ifs" doesn't at all mean alternate universes

      Literally many worlds theory.

      >Kumagawa turns one Aleister to nothing and the other billion hax him instead

      With what? All Fiction is a passive ability that revives Kumagawa by making his death nothing, and the original spawned all the “if’s” and so the original never existing means all other versions never existed, and unless you show that what is in the text is a lie and what he said isn’t true and what you’re saying is, then the original dies and Kumagawa slaps.

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    • Except that does take more assumptions to say that he summoned a billion possibilites of himself from alternate worlds just to condense them to one coordinate. It is physical impossible to condense things from other universes to the same coordinate to put them inside himself in one universe.

      >not demonstrated in the text

      Except it is demonstrated in text and supported by what is shown in the anime. It also doesn't prove the many worlds thing at all

      >literally many worlds theory

      Except its never said its possibilities from alternate universes and no other character has other versions of themselves from other worlds, Crowley is a unique existence and that caused every single possible version of him to exist instead of just one which is also literally what is on his profile

      >all fiction is passive.png

      Again erasing one Crowley isn't going to poof the rest because despite what you claim, the text isn't supporting your point of view on this topic.

      Crowley has several things that could work, from nulling his abilities with powernull above what he resists, different sealing things, Karma could also work and trying to all fiction Karma would just get him more Karma

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    • To expand on what's said above, the Crowley Hazards are just Aleisters what if possibilities given form and isolated to one coordinate. Since they are just alternatives, if the main possibility goes a new possibility becomes the main like seen against Coronzon when she kills and possesses him. Removing Hazards only serves to aid the defragging process and strengthen Blood Sign. To Aru uses a indeterministic approach to quantum mechanics however, alternate/other universes explictly dont exist.

      Also “if’s” and so the original never existing means all other versions never existed" I dont recall this being the case with All Fictions erasure. He's erased someone (Zenchiki?) before yes, but it wasnt in the sense that indivudal had never been born and all his actions were erased. Nor did it show everthing they did or made... etc disappeared IIRC. 

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    • >Except that does take more assumptions to say that he summoned a billion possibilites of himself from alternate worlds just to condense them to one coordinate.

      No, it doesn’t:

      My assumption: They all come from different Universes.

      Your assumption: The text is wrong and they appear in the same Universe as him, as well that without being shown or backed up by text, they’re just there prior to the original.

      >It is physical impossible to condense things from other universes to the same coordinate to put them inside himself in one universe. 

      < Talks about 1 trillion possibilities spawning into the Universe and having them all melded to one cordinade

      < Then makes the argument that it’s physically impossible to condence things from other Universes.

      Which are you choosing? Argument from Reality or Occrum’s razor? Because neither work, you cannot make the argument that something is physically impossible while also making the argument that 1 trillion of some guy just appear in the same Universe for no reason. 

      Secondly, yes, you can, it’s called Space hax/Magic over 2-B range or literally a Nexus.

      Pick one argument because you can’t have both.

      >Except it is demonstrated in text and supported by what is shown in the anime. It also doesn't prove the many worlds thing at all

      It literally does and you’d know that if you didn’t perform a strange bias and deny anything that doesn’t agree with your narrative, prove by “not at all” which is total denial, as the very statement they are possibilities of him and are spawned from “if’s” proves this.

      >Except its never said its possibilities from alternate universes and no other character has other versions of themselves from other worlds, Crowley is a unique existence and that caused every single possible version of him to exist instead of just one which is also literally what is on his profile

      You do know now you’re just being a hypocrite? You do know you yourself are not supported by the text, as nothing said they were from the same Universe.

      Additionally I’ve already debunked your argument based Occram’s razor and how you’re making more assumptions, and again, youre making a positive claim that they “just appear”, when the text never states as such and just states they’re “possibilities” which anyone would treat as Many Worlds theory.

      >Again erasing one Crowley isn't going to poof the rest because despite what you claim, the text isn't supporting your point of view on this topic.

      You just avoided the argument you quoted, perhaps respond to the argument then make a new argument.

      And my proof is given to me by the opposition where it states they’re all “if’s” of the original:

      ”Born from various if’s”

      And these if’s require the original to have existed, except he won’t, as he is nothing, his conception becomes nothing.

      >Crowley has several things that could work, from nulling his abilities with powernull above what he resists, different sealing things, Karma could also work and trying to all fiction Karma would just get him more Karma

      Prove they work on Kumagawa’s extremely specific type of EE, and Kumagawa resists sealing.

      And he wouldn’t need to reduce Karma to nothing, he’d remove his actions that gave him karma.

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    • Zensum just explained that your theory on it is impossible since there are no alternate universes to pull from so I'll move on to your other arguments

      >prove they work on Kumagawa's extremely specific type of EE and Kumagawa resists sealing

      Not sure what you mean by "extremely specific type of EE" because All fiction isn't some super unheard of and unique type of EE and as for the sealing he was able to seal Coronzon albeit after weakening her somewhat. He also may be able to use something similar to what he used to nerf the magic gods on Kumagawa, which nerfed them from high 1-C to 5-B and removed almost all their powers.

      There is also the fact that Aleister's consciousness is separate from his body and is referred to as being in a different or higher dimension

      Also removing the actions that gave him karma would be removing his karma and thus still give him more karma

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    • Eh I think I'll go ahead and give reasons why Aleister wins regardless of if AF can kill the clones or not.

      Kumagawa starts with bookmaker+AF time blitz, time blitz is probably moot as Aleister moves in places where the concepts of time do not exist.

      Aleister is extremely pragmatic and while AF can maybe affect the clones, bookmaker can't.

      From there, Aleister can either mindhax Kumagawa, which I hear is extremely strong though I might gr wrong, or curse him into feeling even weaker then usual and thus being incapable of even using his powers, or seal.

      Voting Aleister 6/10 if AF can affect the clones, 9/10 if he can't.

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    • Intelligence never play a factor in a match huh.

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    • Aleister's intelligence is way beyond Kumagawa's.

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    • SchroKatze wrote: Aleister's intelligence is way beyond Kumagawa's.

      Yeah exactly.

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      Eh I think I'll go ahead and give reasons why Aleister wins regardless of if AF can kill the clones or not.

      Kumagawa starts with bookmaker+AF time blitz, time blitz is probably moot as Aleister moves in places where the concepts of time do not exist.

      Aleister is extremely pragmatic and while AF can maybe affect the clones, bookmaker can't.

      From there, Aleister can either mindhax Kumagawa, which I hear is extremely strong though I might gr wrong, or curse him into feeling even weaker then usual and thus being incapable of even using his powers, or seal.

      Voting Aleister 6/10 if AF can affect the clones, 9/10 if he can't.

      i know nothing of aleister beside his profile so i'll probably said dumb stuff :

      does aleister is always in that place where time don't exist ?

      aleister mind hax apparently just make him enter the mind of the target and summon illusion weapon that deal real harm , nothing AF can't deal with i think . it would a different story if it took control of kumagawa complelty ( although , entering the mind of a minus is a really bad idea)

      curse might work yes but kumagawa regained AF even tho he shouldn't even have it anymore so it's iffy

      kumagawa resist sealing , how good is aleister seal ?

      i'm not voting yet but kumagawa appear to have options here.

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    • >is aleister always in a place time doesn't exist

      No but anytime he travels to a place where time doesn't exist he is perfectly fine walking around and doing stuff without being affected by the lack of time, so Kumagawa erasing his own time does nothing in Crowley's eyes and he just acts like normal

      >Aleister's mindhax is just spiritual tripping

      No his mindhax isn't just summoning weapons inside of the opponent's mind he has pretty good mind manip besides that

      Also if he used spiritual tripping and summoned a big bang bomb I'm fairly certain that being revived constantly won't help Kumagawa

      >Kumagawa regained af even though he shouldn't have it

      He regained all fiction because Ajimu only took hundred gauntlets, she is unable to take all fiction because it's not her's so Kumagawa just reawakened his weakened all fiction that lacked hundred gauntlets

      >how good is Aleister's seal

      Should be high 1-C I'm pretty sure

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    • Malox1696, Paul Frank, udlmaster, Zensum.

      Can you please tell me what character got your vote?

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    • Crowley fra I guess

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      >is aleister always in a place time doesn't exist

      No but anytime he travels to a place where time doesn't exist he is perfectly fine walking around and doing stuff without being affected by the lack of time, so Kumagawa erasing his own time does nothing in Crowley's eyes and he just acts like normal

      >Aleister's mindhax is just spiritual tripping

      No his mindhax isn't just summoning weapons inside of the opponent's mind he has pretty good mind manip besides that

      Also if he used spiritual tripping and summoned a big bang bomb I'm fairly certain that being revived constantly won't help Kumagawa

      >Kumagawa regained af even though he shouldn't have it

      He regained all fiction because Ajimu only took hundred gauntlets, she is unable to take all fiction because it's not her's so Kumagawa just reawakened his weakened all fiction that lacked hundred gauntlets

      >how good is Aleister's seal

      Should be high 1-C I'm pretty sure

      welp , unless your argument gets debunked i vote for aleister . the mind manip should be updated on his profile tho as it is confusing to only state the mind weapon .

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    • Aleister FRA

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    • I will count Udlmaster arguing in favor of Kumagawa as a vote.

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    • Crow FRA

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    • One more vote and kumagawa becomes a loser again!

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    • What exactly are Kumagawa's win conditions? 

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    • Erase all 1 billion Crowleys 1 by 1

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    • 「Once again, I couldn't win」

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    • What Paul Frank said.

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    • Naeblis495 wrote:
      「Once again, I couldn't win」

      Aleister still needs 1 vote to win, there's still hope for kumagawa!

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    • I would FRA but I don't want to be the one who doomed Kumagawa.

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      Erase all 1 billion Crowleys 1 by 1

      Or all at once I assume. Since Kumagawa isn't bloodlusted, he probably ain't gonna go for it. 

      I vote Al FRA

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    • and lapitus put the last bookmaker in the coffin : 「Once again, I couldn't win」

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    • Kumagawa loses... again.

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    • like always~

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    • I'm unsure if this is fair, considering how spiritual tripping works, he just needs to die once, resurrection or not, as the curse part of the spell will make him lose form that point on

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    • Malox1696 wrote:
      I'm unsure if this is fair, considering how spiritual tripping works, he just needs to die once, resurrection or not, as the curse part of the spell will make him lose form that point on

      for whom will you vote for?

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    • AC fra.

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    • Poor Kumagawa, he doesn't even get a break.

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