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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    03:50, May 29, 2016

    Looking over some of the Bayonetta pages since the upgrade, I've noticed a few problems.

    1. It has been assumed that the Eyes of the World, due to making Jubileus capable of recreating the universe, must each be equal to half of her level. This is not inherently true. The Eyes never demonstrate or are hinted to have this level of power on their own, and the best they get are, to my knowledge, mentions of being incredibly powerful. 

    The only time the eyes are said to have universal power (if I'm remembering correctly) is when combined in Jubileus or Aesir. There is no reason to assume universe level base Bayonetta.

    2. Jubileus being universe level with both Eyes of the World is fine, as that is backed up by lore. However, there is a big problem with assuming Jubileus without these is universe level and then scaling Bayonetta to her. Mainly the fact that Bayonetta does not fight Jubileus with both Eyes of the World. Only with one, which as I've already said, would suggest her to be at a fraction of universe level power, since she obviously couldn't reform it with a single Eye.

    3. The justification for base Bayonetta in Bayonetta 2 is blatantly incorrect. It states Bayo defeated Aesir after he had gotten back both eyes, which is false. She and Balder essentially did nothing to him aside from smacking him around a bit. It's not until Loki erases BOTH the eyes (due to Aesir's power of nothingness) and Aesir loses his power that Bayo and Balder can beat him.

    If we were to assume the asinine reasoning of drained power Bayo and Balder > Aesir, this would mean Left and Right Eyes/Balder and Bayo < Jubileus with both Eyes < Aesir with both Eyes < drained power Bayo and Balder. That holds about as much water as me using Tavros Nitram landing hits on casual Lord English to justify Hyperverse level EVERYONE in Homestuck.

    4. Why is it assumed that Bayo is capable of summoning Sheba and Omne at their full power? Nothing would suggest this, and they're only used as a tool to finish off already weakened Jubileus and Aesir as opposed to summoning them from the get-go. Also, Sheba is scaled to Jubileus with both Eyes, for some reason. Despite the fact that the Eyes were Aesir's and not Jubileus', so I don't know why "equal to Jubileus" puts her at the level of something only (hypothetically) accomplished by Jubileus with both Eyes?

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    • I agree with this.

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    • Hmm. What are you proposing in all of this, basically? @Azathoth/OP

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    • Well, if these can't be properly addressed, then Aesir and Jubileus could keep 3-A (since 3-A Eyes together is legit), but that would need to be specified to be for both when in possession of the Eyes. Everyone else would have to be lowered back to the best previous feat, which was 5-A, I think?

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    • Gimme a sec, just finishing up why most of these are incorrect...

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    • 1. She's only Universal in base for the second game, and Universal with the Left Eye becasue with it she was able to harm Jubileus, who tanked the universe being destroyed (See Below).

      2. Jubileus is still Universe level in durability for tanking the total destruction of the original universe at the end of the First Armageddon, and Bayo is still able to harm her with the Left Eye.

      3. Yes, that is what happened. If you smack around a Universe level character what does that make you? And yes, that "asinine" reasoning (Left and Right Eyes/Balder and Bayo < Jubileus with both Eyes < Aesir with both Eyes < Bayonetta 2 Bayo and Balder) is what's used on her profile because it's correct. And being landing hits on someone =/= actually fighting someone, which Bayonetta and Balder did with Aesir.

      4. Sheba is half of what makes up Omne, and unless Jeanne was right there when Omne was summoned, Bayonetta summoned her on her own. Also, its stated on her profile that she needs Balder to summon Omne. Its also stated that Sheba is Jubileus' equal in her lore.

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    • Also, the Eyes of the World were created AFTER the First Armageddon, so Jubileus did not have them when the universe was destroyed.

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    • 1 and 2. Jubileus survived the universe being split into three realms, and it's not like she was unharmed, either. We can't assume Bayo is Universal for hurting a weakened, one-Eye Jubileus who was killed by significantly less. On top of that, we don't know the specifics of the events creating the Trinity, so we probably can't even assume universe level.

      3. Not, it' doesn't make you universe level. Smacking someone around but not actually doing damage does not put you at their level, especially when he was likely too cocky to believe he was in danger at that point, which he only was shown to be after Loki erased the Eyes. Absolutely nothing hints at depowered Bayonetta 2 Bayo being >> Jubileus.

      I've already used the LE example, and this is the exact same thing.

      4. That didn't answer my question. Nothing shows that Sheba and Omne are at absolutely full power when summoned, and even if they were, that would just mean they were significantly below universe level.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Also, the Eyes of the World were created AFTER the First Armageddon, so Jubileus did not have them when the universe was destroyed.

      Jubileus didn't destroy the universe though, so that's irrelevant.

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    • Hmm. I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      1 and 2. Jubileus survived the universe being split into three realms, and it's not like she was unharmed, either. We can't assume Bayo is Universal for hurting a weakened, one-Eye Jubileus who was killed by significantly less. On top of that, we don't know the specifics of the events creating the Trinity, so we probably can't even assume universe level.

      3. Not, it' doesn't make you universe level. Smacking someone around but not actually doing damage does not put you at their level, especially when he was likely too cocky to believe he was in danger at that point, which he only was shown to be after Loki erased the Eyes. Absolutely nothing hints at depowered Bayonetta 2 Bayo being >> Jubileus.

      I've already used the LE example, and this is the exact same thing.

      4. That didn't answer my question. Nothing shows that Sheba and Omne are at absolutely full power when summoned, and even if they were, that would just mean they were significantly below universe level.


      1-2. Except that she wasn't killed, she was just sealed away. Without the Eyes of the World she still survived the destruction of the old universe and was only imprisoned, and the Trinity of Reality was formed when the old universe was destroyed, creating a new one. Bayonetta defeating Jubileus, who was actually MORE powerful than the original, would put her where she is.

      3. Yes, Aesir is cocky, but he is still visibly injured when Bayonetta fights him. Plus, the fact that they weren't immediately killed by even his most casual attacks would still give Bayonetta and Balder Universe level durability. This would then scale to both of their AP as Bayonetta fought Balder and won earlier in the game.

      4. If Sheba is significantly below universe level why would Bayonetta even bother to summon her to finish off Jubileus? And Omne is more powerful than both of them.

      Even if she didn't destroy the universe herself she tanked it being destroyed, like I already said, so yeah, it is relevant.

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    • 1-2. Yes, she was sealed away, but that's not the point. The point was that she didn't tank a universe destroying attack. The universe split into three parts and Jubileus was there. That is a huge difference. It's also made very explicit that we know next to nothing about the events that caused the split, and simply that it happened. There are no documents about the events, no flashbacks to it, no one who was there who describes it, nothing. This is not enough to justify universe level durability.

      3. Aesir is completely fine until the cutscene in which Loki erases the Eyes and he falls to the ground. Nothing indicates Bayonetta and Balder did anything other than smack him around while he toyed with them, and even this is almost certainly just for the sake of having more of an epic ending boss. Also, again, Aesier casually fighting them does not mean universe level durability. The exact same logic implies every single person in all of Homestuck is Hyperversal.

      4. Because Jubileus wasn't universe level with one Eye. I've already explained that.

      See 1-2.

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    • I agree with Azathoth.

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    • Alright, well even if we go with what you're saying, how do you explain Bayonetta beating Rodin's Father and Infinite forms, the former of which is comparable to full power Jubileus and the latter being more powerful than full power Queen Sheba?

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    • Is Rodin ever stated to be comparable to Aesir with both eyes? Because if not, he's probably also "At least 5-A".

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    • Stated to be comparable to both Jubileus and Sheba at full power (With both eyes), with Infinite stated to be stronger.

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    • Where is he stated to be comparable to Jubileus with both of Aesir's eyes?

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    • I thought Rodin was stated to be BELOW Jubileus, something about him being the second strongest. (I'm going to look it up because I could be wrong)

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    • Yeah he was, the second strongest but still comparable as he has a Dea Halo which only Jubileus has another of (Halos are power-rankings for Angels) and Infinite Rodin is stated to be stronger than Sheba, who is Jubileus' equal.

      "An immortal man feared as the most dangerous demon in the entire barren wasteland of Inferno." As in more dangerous than Sheba

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Yeah he was, the second strongest but still comparable as he has a Dea Halo which only Jubileus has another of (Halos are power-rankings for Angels) and Infinite Rodin is stated to be stronger than Sheba, who is Jubileus' equal.

      "An immortal man feared as the most dangerous demon in the entire barren wasteland of Inferno." As in more dangerous than Sheba

      It's that was referring Rodin In his demon form but not in his angelic form? and the Jubileus' equal is referring to his angelic form?

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    • Yes

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    • I mean he got his demonic from after he lost his angelic power so I dont think his angelic form who is equal to Jubileus, is the same as his demon form who is possible stronger than Sheba.

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    • His angel form isnt equal, its comparable but weaker, but his demon form is stronger than sheba

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    • Is the fight with Rodin even canon? It seems that Bayonetta 2 forgets the optional fight that happened in the first game. Bayonetta 2 implies that Rodin is MUCH stronger than Bayo.

      Also, maybe it's because I watch to much animu but does Dangerous really mean Stronger? It seems how dangerous someone is depends on what their actions are rather than how strong they are.

      Rodin's lore is based off of his actions after all.

      Example: Person A is stronger than Person B, but Person A rarely fights and is a kind person, while Person B destroys and kills people for fun. Person B would be more dangerous, just like how Rodin goes around killing demons to turn them into weapons.

      I could be completely wrong in every single way and that's okay, I don't care about being right or wrong. I just like the discussion more than anything else.

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    • Also I'm not saying Rodin's forms don't exist nor am I saying they aren't powerful. I just want to know if the FIGHT itself is canon to the story, since the game goes around acting like is Rodin stronger than Bayonetta when they go to Inferno, and his powers aren't fully restored either.

      The books written on Rodin's history are by two different people. The demon Rodin is treated like his Angle Counterpart didn't even existed in the first place, calling it a Rumour.

      It's likely his Demon form is equal to his Angle form.

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    • TheRustyOne
      TheRustyOne removed this reply because:
      Because
      09:36, May 21, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Poinciana1971 wrote: Is the fight with Rodin even canon? It seems that Bayonetta 2 forgets the optional fight that happened in the first game. Bayonetta 2 implies that Rodin is MUCH stronger than Bayo.

      Also, maybe it's because I watch to much animu but does Dangerous really mean Stronger? It seems how dangerous someone is depends on what their actions are rather than how strong they are.

      Rodin's lore is based off of his actions after all.

      Example: Person A is stronger than Person B, but Person A rarely fights and is a kind person, while Person B destroys and kills people for fun. Person B would be more dangerous, just like how Rodin goes around killing demons to turn them into weapons.

      I could be completely wrong in every single way and that's okay, I don't care about being right or wrong. I just like the discussion more than anything else.

      Yes it's canon, and yes him being considered more dangerous than Sheba would mean he's stronger than her. Sheba at full power is a Universe level demon, yet Rodin is considered more dangerous than her. Rodin just acts like he's stronger, but Bayo would and has beaten him in a straight up fight.

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    • Can you explain WHY it's canon, just you saying that it's canon doesn't mean anything. Bayonetta 2 acts like the fight never happened in the first place.

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    • I agree with Azathoth is saying.

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    • I'm also curious as to how the Rodin fight is canon when it's a secret fight (not happening in the main plot for both games) that happens on the side just for the player. Even if that's the case, Universe level Jubileus is not proven due to the lore being, for the most part, shrouded is mystery... Saying that she was present at the Universe's splitting doesn't automatically mean she is Universe level.

      We can't suggest a character's tier (resulting in buffs to all characters) from that alone. Jubil is very unlikely to be universal level if her incomplete form was almost destroyed when coming into contact with the Sun. Like Azathoth said, Jubil needs both eyes to tap into her complete power. Having one of the eyes does not open the path to her complete pool of energy.

      We need to wait for more information on the lore before suggesting that any of the characters are universal. Jubilieus should be listed as "likely Low 4-C Unknown" (For One eye, and both eyes) since she only has a shrouded background that can even suggest that she is Universal status. Aesir should likely be left as "Unknown, potentially 3-A" given the reasons above.

      Characters that scale to Bayonetta should be left as "At least 5-A" as a result until we're given more information on the lore.

      I disaprove of Universe level Jubil and Aesir until further lore development on the eyes and what resulted in the Universe's destruction.

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    • Not going to debate if the Rodin fight is canon, but I will point out there is nothing saying Rodin > Jubileus with both eyes. This would put everyone who isn't Jubileus with both Eyes and Aesir with both eyes back at their old Tier, which is 5-A. However, I have heard there was a Tier 4 feat calced which could be helpful. Anyone have info on that?

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    • Yes, Father Rodin isnt stronger than Jubileus with both eyes but Rodin the Infinite One is.

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    • Where is the statement for that, though?

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    • There is only a statement (iirc) stating that Rodin is the 2nd strongest demon behind Sheba. That doesn't mean he is stronger than Jubileus and we wouldn't know the gap between Rodin and Sheba anyways.

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    • Actually its a statment that hes the second strongest behind Jubileus, and a statment that hes stronger than Sheba

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    • Rodin the Infinite One is just called Above Sheba, whose only known feat was to finsh off a weaknened Jubileus without one eye.

      Also, he is called the most dangerous demon, not the most powerful. I know I am arguing around semantics, but Sheba is so passive every single one of her minion is more dangerous than her.

      Even then there is nothing placing Sheba above Jubileus with both of her eyes

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    • Alright, so far, the statement about Rodin the Infinite One being stronger than Jubileus with both Eyes of the World has not been brought forth, and I cannot find it by searching, so if it does not exist, there needs to be some major changes to the tiers.

      Bayonetta as the Left Eye, summoning Queen Sheba, in Bayonetta 2, and summoning Omne all go back to 5-A (or perhaps at least 5-A for the last one).

      All forms of Loptr go back to (At least) 5-A. Aesir can keep the 3-A because, as already stated, the two Eyes of the World are HIS power and said power when under his control can reunite the Trinity of Realities. This does not scale to Bayonetta and Balder for reasons I've already stated.

      Father Balder's last 4 keys get the same treatment as Bayo's.

      Father Rodin and RtIO become 5-A and At least 5-A, respectively.

      Jeanne summoning Queen Sheba becomes 5-A.

      Jubileus becomes 5-A. There could possibly be a key for Jubileus with both Eyes of the World, which would be 3-A, but she never actually attained this power at any point in the series, so I am not sure if it should be there.

      Queen Sheba becomes 5-A.

      Omne becomes At least 5-A due to dwarfing the combined might of Jubileus and Queen Sheba.

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    • I still think that Azathoth seems to make sense.

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    • So, I just registered on this wiki because this topic intrigued me and also because I'm a fan of the Bayonetta series. Anyway, I might be able to give some insight here:

      I agree that one eye does not equal to half the power both together. Like the principle of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

      Concerning Sheba, the lore stated that after the First Armageddon the three realms needed rulers. The statement implies that the three rulers arose from a natural process. Such a process only occurs when balance is being sought. If they are meant to balance a system, then they must be equal. Hence, Jubileus, Sheba, and Aesir are equal.

      Concerning Omne, she is stated to be a fusion of angel and demon, but NOT necessarily of Jubileus and Sheba. Many fans speculate her to be a separate being altogether as her exact nature is not explicitly made know. I believe there was quite a lengthy discussion as to her nature on the Bayonetta wiki, under her page. You can check it out there if you want. However, she's probably stronger than Aesir as her entry states she "can defeat even the most dissonant of chaos."

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    • Even if Jubileus and Sheba should be equal to Aesir (which they really seem as though they should), that does not mean they are. Aesir's Eyes, which are his own power, are what's needed for Jubileus to merge the Trinity of Realities together, showing that Jubileus clearly does not have this power on her own. Only the power created by Aesir has shown/been stated to be capable of such things.

      There is a good chance Omne is higher, and she very well might be as strong as Aesir, but her best feat after being summoned is kicking a weakened Aesir's soul out of his body. Without direct feats or statements putting her on the level of full power Aesir, the best we can do is "At least 5-A, possibly much higher".

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    • I agree with most of what you stated, but Jubileus should be listed as "5-A Unknown" instead of leaving out her potential full power or simply adding her to universe level.

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    • Alright, so, should we update the profiles soon, or?

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    • I'd go with the changes as suggested here so far, Azathoth. 

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    • Unless Weekly has anything more to add, probably.

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    • I still dont agree with the changes but everyone seems to agree with Azzy

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    • Well, unfortunately, unless you have the statement saying Rodin >>> both EotW Jubileus, they're going to need to be downgraded.

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    • Though I do want to question if there's a calc for Sheba punching Jubileus through the solar system, since it might yield higher results than just lower end large planet level (which was gotten by destroying Jupiter).

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    • Okay I just need clarification. So the changes are that the character will be downgraded back to Large Planet Level? Or by Bayonetta 2 they will be still Universe Level?

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    • Everyone but Aesir will be Large Planet.

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    • So is his fight with bayonetta and balder considered an outlier?

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    • Already mentioned it above. Bayo and Balder don't really do anything to Aesir, and Aesir isn't serious. They only defeat him after Loki erases the Eyes of the World.

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    • Well while I do disagree with the sudden downgrade(Maybe an upgrade can coome soon) there isn't anything I can do...

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    • I am so glad they are back to normal, that upgrade to universal due to hocky statements in lore was frankly ridicolous

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    • Since this is pretty much concluded, I am going to wait a teensy bit longer before changing the stats.

      Most characters will return to 5-A based on the Jupiter thing. However, if a better result is gotten from calcing a feat for Bayo, Jubileus, etc, we can use that.

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    • Are we going to put up a note regarding why almost of the characters are now back to 5-A but Aesir is still 3-A? @Azathoth.

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    • I know I'm way late too this, but I'm ratehr in agreeance with Azzy on this one, though my reasoning has mroe or less already been covered by the previous comments. Just saying, this is sort of why we don't have, say, 4-A or Low 2-C Dante, too vague and such, wouldn't be fair for verses to receive unequal treatment on the Wiki and all.

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    • CrossverseCrisis wrote:
      Are we going to put up a note regarding why almost of the characters are now back to 5-A but Aesir is still 3-A? @Azathoth.

      I figured I'd just note it in his stats.

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    • @Azathoth: Fair enough, man. 

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      06:32, May 28, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Azatoth is making such a great disaster at the Bayonetta pages. Balder before "dying" on the first game stated that Jubileus even half awakened was going to create an out of control vortex of destruction and finish off the established trinity of realities. Aesir was able to warp the human universe and was the creator of it. Reminder that Aesir is the ruler of the chaos realm, while Jubileus is the one of the Paradiso universe (stated on Irenic's description to be thousands of time bigger than the human realm) and Sheba of Inferno. The 3 are balanced forces, they are on equal terms. Somebody already posted the quotes from the games in another discussion, its in the prologues and in the lore texts of why they are universal tier.

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    • Except as I've already pointed out, that's not justified. There being a balance isn't nearly enough to justify universal stats for everyone, especially since Jubileus needed the Eyes to reunite the Trinity. You know who originally possessed the Eyes? Aesir. He's clearly portrayed as the most powerful, with only Omne being hinted to be possibly comparable, and even that is completely uncertain.

      Balder also never said Jubileus was going to destroy the Trinity. He said removing the Left Eye from Jubileus' body would make the universe lose balance, which would destroy it. Unless you're referring to when he says something like "the Trinity of Realities wrapped up in a vortex of creation", which makes no mention of Jubileus destroying it, and comes after him talking about the Trinity itself.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      Except as I've already pointed out, that's not justified. There being a balance isn't nearly enough to justify universal stats for everyone, especially since Jubileus needed the Eyes to reunite the Trinity. You know who originally possessed the Eyes? Aesir. He's clearly portrayed as the most powerful, with only Omne being hinted to be possibly comparable, and even that is completely uncertain.

      Balder states that the Jubileus Bayonetta confronted was going to "destroy" the 3 realities. Jubileus half awakened with her vessel, Balder/Loptr's essence and the right eye absorbed is powerful enough to "destroy" the 3 universes. The two eyes were needed to resurrect her at her 100% percent and control her to favor Paradiso, but not to submerge the trinity of realites in an eternal vortex of creation (yeah, it was creation, I checked it right now). Azathoth why are you doing this? STOP!

      https://youtu.be/r8ZPICIWe2g?t=7m41s

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    • Azzy is just trying to make sure the profiles are correct and not overblown out of proportion. He's just doing his job.

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    • I've already addressed that comment above, and why using it to justify universal Jubileus with one Eye doesn't fly.

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    • So, is this topic concluded, so we can close this thread?

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    • We should as Azathoth has made the appropriate changes to all the pages of the verse.

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    • Okay then.

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