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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3731126
    07:32, November 20, 2019

    A lot of our mythology pages are unsourced, low-information garbage, a prime example being this one:

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Norns_(Mythology)

    "It should be noted that as the worlds share a sun, they should be considered different parts of a solar system, and not different universes."

    What is the source for this? And even if it was true, what is to stop people from arguing that the sun was simply bigger in Norse mythology, like in all mythologies where sun worship and sun gods were prominent?

    Another problem is the mixing and matching of various conceptions of gods within their profile pages, even conceptions that are wholly unorthodox or "heretical".

    A prime example is here:

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dionysus_(Myth)

    This page references the Dionysiaca, a religious poem that presents concepts so completely different to "normal" or "conventional" Hellenistic religion that the "Dionysus" presented in it might as well be a completely different god. This isn't even getting into the conflation between Orphic Dionysus and "regular" Hellenistic Dionysus in the page.

    Most of the profiles on the gods are just awful, having no citations to back up literally anything in them.

    Here's an example:

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ukko_(Myth)

    Not a single link to any story or mythology or commentary that displays the feats claimed, and I certainly am not seeing where Ukko has "higher-dimensional existence" (unless we start taking mythological descriptions and/or epithets of deities as literal face-value truths instead of mostly hyperboles, in which case quite a few gods need to be upgraded to 1-B or even 1-A).

    TL;DR The state of mythological profiles in here is dreadful, and someone should go and fix that.

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    • I'm also not getting the weird justifications in some of these profiles, like in here:

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Q%CA%BCuq%CA%BCumatz/Kukulkan_(Myth)

      Why is this page using the scientific definition of the sun's mass for this feathered serpent's lifting strength and attack potency, but not it's size and distance to the Earth for the god's speed?

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    • You should ask the currently active wiki members listed in the Mythology verse page to comment here, as it is unlikely that anything will get done otherwise.

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    • You can also use the mythology section of the Knowledgeable Members List.

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    • Given that these are myths nowadays, as opposed to religions I could understand the idea of compositing the myths. I’m only knowledgeable on Greco-Roman with a bit of Egypt though. I’m not good with Norns, which iirc is Norse (Digimon actually taught me something).

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    • I find a lot of the Mythology profiles to be pretty trash.

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    • @Matthew

      Yes, probably true, but it is very hard to coherently organise a revision, given that it isn't a single cohesive continuity that is comparatively easy to analyse.

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    • I think we should start by linking citations to feats and powers, and getting a standard of how to interpret the descriptions and epithets of mythological figures.

      We should also create keys for "mainstream" and "non-mainstream" conceptions of deities, like so for Dionysus:

      Hellenistic Dionysus | In the Bacchae (could probably be mixed in with Hellenistic Dionysus) | Orphic Dionysus | Mycenaean Dionysus | In the Dionysiaca

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    • This seems like a rather big project. I'd be more than happy to help, but I won't be able to take a strong involvement until I get back home in a few days.

      However until then I'll work on finding justification for the mythologies that I am most familiar with (Polynesian)

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    • Bumping this thread, because the state of mythology profiles is still terrible, and we still need a massive revision at this point.

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    • First and foremost we need more cosmology explanations for various mythical figures. I cannot begin to tell you people how much 4-B Norns grate on me without proper, detailed explanation.

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    • I agree, but you still need to inform the active members listed in the Mythology verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List about this thread in order to get anywhere.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I agree, but you still need to inform the active members listed in the Mythology verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List about this thread in order to get anywhere.

      I'm doing so right now.
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    • I am sending every active and semi-active mythology supporter and expert here this message:

      Massive mythology revisions needed

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3279049

      The mythology profiles on VBW are all unreliable garbage without exception. To fix this, we need:

      1. Citations for every supposed feat, description, or ability in mythology, from reputable sources on ancient or modern mythologies (primary sources, of course, being the best). If we're quoting primary mythological texts (such as the Iliad) directly, then the specific translator of the text should be noted as well. The citations should obviously have links.

      2. Detailed explanations for the cosmology of each mythology. I don't want to have to hear about 4-B Norns or the High 1-B Hindu-Buddhist multiverse without a proper explanation as to why.

      3. The separation of "normal" and "abnormal" conceptions of various mythological figures into multiple keys (e.g. no conflating Hellenistic Dionysus with Orphic Dionysus and Dionysiaca Dionysus, as the character profile does)

      4. A standard of dealing with the various names, titles, and epithets of mythological figures. In ancient cultures, such names, titles, and epithets were extremely important theologically speaking.

      5. A standard of dealing with various "high-concept" descriptions of deities (I.e. descriptions of them being "exalted beyond the heavens" or "infinite and eternal" or "spaceless and timeless"). Should we take them at face-value (as the ancient cultures most likely did, for the most part), or should we consider them as mostly hyperbole, or should be try to "contextualize" them in a modern philosophical context?

      6. A standard of dealing with ancient theologies, especially for mythologies without a specific "canon" (like classical mythology). I don't understand why we should have to consider Amaterasu as equal to Amenominakanushi based on an unnamed and unsourced old Japanese religious text that doesn't even seem to exist.

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    • Okay. Thank you.

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    • This is good and I fully support revisions like this

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    • Due to the nature of theology and mythology, it makes it very hard for people to ever want to create any reasonable Respect blog or any reliable sourcing due to how large it is, as well that there’s so many interpretations and versions of each character, namely the Greeks, makes them inconsistent.

      Merely look to Aphrodite who doesn’t even have a concrete origin, either the Foam from the castration of Uranus, while in the Iliad, she’s said to be the daughter of Zeus and Dione.

      For the Greeks, I recommend on having the Theogony be the basis/canon for the Greeks, as it is basically a composite at the time.

      For the others, I do not know, I don’t believe they were as into their own mythology like the Greeks and didn’t write a composite.

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    • I support these revisions, I think some of the creator dieties can be considered 1-A. 

      Also, Since Sun Wukong is partially tied to buddhist elements, why can't we add buddhist characters like the Buddha for the VS wiki, Buddhism isn't as controversial to discuss like the abrahamic religions.

      In my opinion, buddhist characters should be added to this wiki because there will most likely be no controversy

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      I support these revisions, I think some of the creator dieties can be considered 1-A. 

      While they can be, I don’t think should be based on the idea they’re Creator deities, after all, this is a meritocracy, and profiles are awarded their rank not on title but on merit.

      I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      In my opinion, buddhist characters should be added to this wiki because there will most likely be no controversy

      While I agree, as a Buddhist I find no issue with scaling Buddhism, same with Sera when we spoke about aspects of the religion, the only problem is, is that once we allow the door to be opened, people will demand they add Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and so on.

      And most of all with that last one, some people don’t want them to be touched, and while I’m against “My feelings overwrite your freedoms and expressions” it’s gonna cause more drama than it’s worth and so I say stay away based on purely avoiding drama.

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    • "...profiles are awarded their rank not on title but on merit."

      Except in certain cases the titles are most definitely relevant, since in practically every religion the titles and epithets of any given deity are fundamental to understanding their true nature, or at least which aspect in which they are worshipped.

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      "...profiles are awarded their rank not on title but on merit."

      Except in certain cases the titles are most definitely relevant, since in practically every religion the titles and epithets of any given deity is fundamental to understand their true nature, or at least which aspect in which they are worshipped.

      Not really, Gods/Rulers of things doesn’t gain the AP of the thing they are Gods of, not unless they’re shown/stated to control that which they rule over, like Poseidon, he rules and can manipulate the Seas, that is valid, but if he says never shown to do so or have the energy to do so, we wouldn’t give him a rank like High 6-A.

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    • Udlmaster wrote:

      While I agree, as a Buddhist I find no issue with scaling Buddhism, same with Sera when we spoke about aspects of the religion, the only problem is, is that once we allow the door to be opened, people will demand they add Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and so on.

      And most of all with that last one, some people don’t want them to be touched, and while I’m against “My feelings overwrite your freedoms and expressions” it’s gonna cause more drama than it’s worth and so I say stay away based on purely avoiding drama.

      Exactly. This is a slippery slope that we don't want to travel on.

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    • @Uld

      When has a god of something ever been unable to control that said something?

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      @Uld

      When has a god of something ever been unable to control that said something?

      When it’s just a title, as I said.

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    • Titles were still very important theologically speaking, and were considered valid in understanding ancient deities.

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    • In fact, let's compromise.

      Every ability or attack potency level implied by a specific title gets added in with the caveat of "possibly" before it. If a god is given the title "the World-Destroyer" and "the Bringer of Storms", then (assuming that such titles aren't explicitly backed up in the mythologies proper) he should be put as "possibly at least 5-B" and given "possible Weather Manipulation".

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    • I can try to help if need be, but I'm only knowledgeable on Greek Monsters and some Aztec deities

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    • Udlmaster wrote:
      I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      I support these revisions, I think some of the creator dieties can be considered 1-A. 
      While they can be, I don’t think should be based on the idea they’re Creator deities, after all, this is a meritocracy, and profiles are awarded their rank not on title but on merit.


      I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      In my opinion, buddhist characters should be added to this wiki because there will most likely be no controversy

      While I agree, as a Buddhist I find no issue with scaling Buddhism, same with Sera when we spoke about aspects of the religion, the only problem is, is that once we allow the door to be opened, people will demand they add Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and so on.

      And most of all with that last one, some people don’t want them to be touched, and while I’m against “My feelings overwrite your freedoms and expressions” it’s gonna cause more drama than it’s worth and so I say stay away based on purely avoiding drama.

      Well, my reasoning for some creator dieties to possibly be 1-A is that if the myths say they transcend the concepts of time and space.

      I do get your reasoning why we shouldn't add Buddhism. But I don't think Hinduism will be too much drama as well, the main problem are the Abrahamic religions, those are far too controversial to be discussed without the threads to turn into a religious war.

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    • Which is a shame, because I'd be really interested in the scaling of Archangels and the Horsemen and such.

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    • It would be interesting talking about tier placements of abrahamic characters, but while most of us here would be civil, it would most likely light up a legion of internet trolls like in the old days

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    • Hence why we can't have nice things.

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    • We will not add any major modern religions to the wiki. It would severely offend too many people.

      I would appreciate if we immediately drop this subject so the discussion does not get out of hand again.

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    • Of course, sorry.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die
      I'm Blue daba dee daba die removed this reply because:
      Let's drop this subject
      17:22, August 20, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die
      I'm Blue daba dee daba die removed this reply because:
      Will say the same thing in my new comment
      17:26, August 20, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Antvasima wrote:
      We will not add any major modern religions to the wiki. It would severely offend too many people.

      I would appreciate if we immediately drop this subject so the discussion does not get out of hand again.

      Sorry about that, I wasn't meaning to bring it out of hand

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    • Antvasima wrote: We will not add any major modern religions to the wiki. It would severely offend too many people.

      I would appreciate if we immediately drop this subject so the discussion does not get out of hand again.

      What about Shintoism? It's still practiced in Japan, and yet we have Shinto gods on our wiki.
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    • @Malomtek

      Please read our Site Rules and Editing Rules pages. I think that this is covered in one of them.

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    • Antvasima wrote: @Malomtek

      Please read our Site Rules and Editing Rules pages. I think that this is covered in one of them.

      Found it. Thanks. It was in the Editing Rules.

      "The exceptions to this are ones with an incredibly small amount of current followers, such as the Aesir faith, and ones for which the followers are agnostic, such as Shintoism."

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Speaking of Shinto, I'm still not seeing where the old Japanese religious text equating Amaterasu to Amenominakanushi comes from.

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    • No wait I found it. All that stuff actually came from a research paper about the influence of Christianity on Shinto, and very likely doesn't reflect any mainstream Shinto belief system.

      https://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/cpjr/kami/sasaki.html

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      In fact, let's compromise.

      Every ability or attack potency level implied by a specific title gets added in with the caveat of "possibly" before it. If a god is given the title "the World-Destroyer" and "the Bringer of Storms", then (assuming that such titles aren't explicitly backed up in the mythologies proper) he should be put as "possibly at least 5-B" and given "possible Weather Manipulation".

      Well, the problem is the vagueness in which theology uses these titles, often they don’t show or even have the Gods fight, and if they do they’re usually via proxy or some other way of winning like with a contest (See Poseidon vs Athena).



      And then, as shown with The Greek profiles, they’re Solar system level in power, far above things like Sky and Sea’s High 6-A.

      And with the “destroyer of worlds”, it’s the same thing with Doomnomitron from Rick and Morty, it’s just a title with nothing to back it up.



      As well, it’s not me who you would need to compromise with.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:

      Well, if it’s stated they transcend the concepts of time and space, it would go without saying they’re 1-A.

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    • @Uld

      What do you mean "vagueness"? The theological titles are often explain in the theologies themselves, if not in the mythologies proper. You don't need gods to fight to "show off" a title. It could be some general or bit feat, even.

      The Greek Gods were universal, last I checked.

      Ancient cultures took the titles and epithets of their gods very seriously. Gods don't get epithets if they didn't mean anything. In an ancient culture, when someone is referred to as "the destroyer of worlds", they really do mean that he's the destroyer of worlds.

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    • I will have to unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I will have to unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.

      Okay.
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    • Malomtek wrote:
      A lot of our mythology pages are unsourced, low-information garbage, a prime example being this one:

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Norns_(Mythology)

      "It should be noted that as the worlds share a sun, they should be considered different parts of a solar system, and not different universes."

      What is the source for this? And even if it was true, what is to stop people from arguing that the sun was simply bigger in Norse mythology, like in all mythologies where sun worship and sun gods were prominent?

      Dear Malomtek,

      The reason that no source is present for this piece of “information” is because none exists. Having scoured through the relevant source material in several different translations, the only verification I could find was a single line in one modern Icelandic translation of the Gylfaginning: “þeirar er goðin höfðu skapat til at lýsa ''heimana'' af þeiri síu"; (heimana being the definitive plural of heimur, meaning world, and thus meaning “the worlds”). However, there are also contradictory statements in other translations and variants; most iterations of this specific line instead reads that the purpose of Sól is to light up “the sky” (in definitive singular, in context clearly referring to the sky of Midgardr), and this seems to be the generally accepted variant today. Aside from that, the only implication that multiple worlds share a single sun is the fact that Sól is known in six of the Nine Realms (Alvíssmál, stanza 16), but this should come as no surprise, as it is a goddess.

      However, even if Sól does travel between different worlds (an idea that remains debated among Norse scholars), this is still no reason for the current rating, as she is not a star but an Ásynja; stars much larger than our sun are consistently depicted as the size of toes or eyeballs in comparison to the bodies of the Æsir and Ásynjur, indicating that the worlds inhabited by such beings are much, much larger than ours; definitely in the multiple solar system class. It should also be said that nearly all contemporary Norse practitioners, myself included, do consider the Nine Realms to be different universes or planes of existence, though I understand if such modern suppositions will be ignored in favor of historical texts.

      As for fixing the woeful state of the Norse profiles on this wiki, consider it done. I am afraid that my time is still limited, and that I am technically still on hiatus from my Internet activities due to work, but I will do my best to improve the profiles as swiftly as possible (a major rework of Odin is nearly done already). If anyone on this wiki has any questions about the Norse faith or would like a revision of suggested changes, please call upon me; I have a degree in Norse studies and fluent knowledge of the language, as well as access to the original texts, so my credentials are – and do forgive my apparent arrogance – probably the best you'll find on this site.

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    • Thank you Edenstar. Very cool.

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    • I will probably have to write some mythology explanations myself, and revise some profiles.

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      I will probably have to write some mythology explanations myself, and revise some profiles.

      That would be most appreciated, by me and this entire community. Most mythological and religious profiles are woefully inadequate as of now. I only ask that you kindly leave the Norse profiles to me, or at least keep me informed of any edits you plan on making; I'm currently in the process of making a major overhaul of several such profiles (more than doubling some in size), and I would hate for my work to go to waste.

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    • Okay.

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    • So I just got to work on the Jade Emperor's profile. I will finish revising it when I get done with the explanations for Chinese mythological cosmology.

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    • I'll deal with the Polynesian stuff as I said earlier. Maui, our only current Polynesian profile, will probably have to become a composite at this rate with the sheer amount of stuff there is about the character

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      So I just got to work on the Jade Emperor's profile. I will finish revising it when I get done with the explanations for Chinese mythological cosmology.

      The Jade Emperor spans across multiple continuities, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.

      He’s a lot higher than High 3-A, Heaven exists beyond Wuji, it’s where it all started. 

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    • I can try to help with the major Aztec gods

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    • @Uld

      Do you have a source for Heaven existing beyond even the Wuji? From what I've read, Wuji is ultimately the source of Heaven, as portrayed in apposition to Earth.

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      @Uld

      Do you have a source for Heaven existing beyond even the Wuji? From what I've read, Wuji is ultimately the source of Heaven, as portrayed in apposition to Earth.

      “The operation of Heaven above has neither sound nor smell,"3 and yet it is the pivot (shu-niu) of the actual process of creation and the basis of the classification of things. Thus it says, "Non-polar and yet Supreme Polarity!" It is not that there is non-polarity outside of the Supreme Polarity.”

      https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/TJTS-Zhu.pdf

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    • Malomtek
      Malomtek removed this reply because:
      Uneeded
      01:23, August 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Honestly that sounds more like the Confucian conception of Heaven, which shouldn't be equated to the Jade Emperor himself. It being a "draft translation" only made to get commentary on it also makes it a bit unreliable in my eyes.

      However, if this is accurate, it does mean that the Confucian Heaven is far above even Low 2-C.

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      Honestly that sounds more like the Confucian conception of Heaven, which shouldn't be equated to the Jade Emperor himself. It being a "draft translation" only made to get commentary on it also makes it a bit unreliable in my eyes.

      However, if this is accurate, it does mean that the Confucian Heaven is far above even Low 2-C.

      Chinese tradition treats all as cannon, with even the Buddha showing up in Taoism and such.

      Also, Confucius has little to do with Taoism, Lou Zhu has to do with Taoism.

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    • I support the revisions, Also a Greek Mythology Buff?, can they even reach 2-B?

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    • Roachman40 wrote:
      I support the revisions, Also a Greek Mythology Buff?, can they even reach 2-B?

      Anything is possible.

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    • @Uld

      My issue is equating this obviously Confucian-influenced notion of Heaven with the Jade Emperor himself. But if they are meant to be equal, then it's all okay with me.

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    • Just a heads up. I will be getting to work on the Greek mythology profiles, especially for Dionysus.

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    • Malomtek wrote: Just a heads up. I will be getting to work on the Greek mythology profiles, especially for Dionysus.

      Via making a blog?

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    • I was more thinking of taking some initiative and revising the profiles directly.

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    • oh ok

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    • You should make a CRT before you start that. And preferably a blog/sandbox with the remade profiles.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      18:25, September 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      18:25, September 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      18:25, September 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Only the two groups of Abrahamic and Indian religions are not allowed, everything else is ok. Though not sure about the status of the Iranian religions on here.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: I support these revisions, I think some of the creator dieties can be considered 1-A. 

      Also, Since Sun Wukong is partially tied to buddhist elements, why can't we add buddhist characters like the Buddha for the VS wiki, Buddhism isn't as controversial to discuss like the abrahamic religions.

      In my opinion, buddhist characters should be added to this wiki because there will most likely be no controversy

      Journey to the West version Buddiha is not the same to the Religious texts version Buddiha. As far as I know, JttW version Buddiha is weaker than Religious texts version Buddiha. The former is often considered as the enhanced version of politicians by Chinese. (Power is power)

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    • Crzer07 wrote:
      Only the two groups of Abrahamic and Indian religions are not allowed, everything else is ok.

      Not entirely true. We moreso ban religions that are still actively practiced to this day (by some substantial group of people).

      For example, we wouldn't allow Mormon and Scientology profiles either.

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    • Mormon is Abrahamic tho.

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    • They said "two groups of Abrahamic faith", I thought they were referring to Judaism/Christianity and Islam.

      My bad if I read that wrong.

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    • Malomtek wrote:
      @Uld

      My issue is equating this obviously Confucian-influenced notion of Heaven with the Jade Emperor himself. But if they are meant to be equal, then it's all okay with me.

      Not Confucius, it’s Lau Tzu, as he was the one who made Taoism, or at least came up with the idea.

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    • Roachman40 wrote: Besides that, are profiles about the Quran Allowed?

      Nope. Faaar too controversial.

      I’m an atheist but I know how much of a mess would be caused by making abrahamic religion profiles.

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    • Hell, I'm Christian, and I would be interested in Bible profiles, but I'm not willing to touch that impending flamewar.

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    • Roachman40 wrote: I support the revisions, Also a Greek Mythology Buff?, can they even reach 2-B?

      I could argue for 1-A orphism

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    • ZacharyGrossman273 wrote:

      I could argue for 1-A orphism

      Let me guess:

      9Dw3NB7K 400x400
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      13:32, September 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Let's not do this now.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      18:25, September 8, 2019
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    • Yes. Let's drop this issue immediately, and focus on the revisions themselves instead.

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    • What are we discussing at this point?

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    • People wanted to add profiles from the Quran, and things deteriorated from there onwards.

      We should focus on improving the current profiles instead.

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    • Ok now, does existing before existence and dimensional space qualify you as 1-A.



      And also, how do we define if the mythological texts of a diety being "beyond space and time" to be High 2-A,Low 2-C, not a factor, or 1-A

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      ZacharyGrossman273 wrote:

      I could argue for 1-A orphism

      Let me guess:

      9Dw3NB7K 400x400

      Well that’s part of it but there’s more too it. Ultima says 1-A orphism is possible.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Ok now, does existing before existence and dimensional space qualify you as 1-A.

      No, existing prior just means you predate said thing, prior to existing in a dimensional space you’d (by default without further information) be existing in a dimensionless void, which isn’t considered 1-A.

      I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: And also, how do we define if the mythological texts of a diety being "beyond space and time" to be High 2-A,Low 2-C, not a factor, or 1-A

      “Beyond time and space” is considered 4-D, which would make them Universal+, unless Time is stated to be the 4th dimension which then would make them 5-D, Same goes for space, if space has a statement of being Higher-D, then said being would be 1 dimension higher.

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    • Ok then, how about transcending space and time

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      Ok then, how about transcending space and time

      Needs more context and info. Transcending space and time could be 5-D.

      Basically the higher the tier there must be more info and context about it especially after tier 3-A.

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    • I heard Mayan mythology is 1-A

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    • ZacharyGrossman273 wrote:

      Roachman40 wrote: I support the revisions, Also a Greek Mythology Buff?, can they even reach 2-B?

      I could argue for 1-A orphism

      Yeah, which 1-A now since we now have low 1-A,1-A,and High 1-A

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    • near-necro bump

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    • Almost forgot about this.

      In light on our tiering system revisions, I would like any revisions to the Mythology pages, specifically concerning their tier and AP levels, to be conservative at first, with the bigger revisions coming after the new tiering system is settled.

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    • I had also completely slacked off on researching Chinese mythology, for which I deeply apologize.

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    • I need to get on the Jade Emperor's stats fast

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    • I’m gonna be following this and saying I’d love to be able to help in any way I can. 

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    • Jackythejack wrote: I’m gonna be following this and saying I’d love to be able to help in any way I can. 

      Well, what are you knowledgeable in?

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    • I know a bit about Norse mythology. A bit more than the average person should at least and I know a bit about Greek mythology. My knowledge on myths is admittedly not the greatest but I’m willing to learn. 

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    • This is about to revise the Bahamut Page. On the Bahamut page it says he is 3-B because it is thousands of times larger than the observable universe. But isn't the observable universe 3-A? Also, in the myths it was said he held the WHOLE universe, not just multiple galaxies. 

      I think we need to buff Bahamut to 3-A

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    • I think that's fine.

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    • I had previously said I can help with Aztec mythology, but I should specify that I may not be able to provide sources and my information may be faulty at times. While I studied it in the past, it's been several years

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    • We use the observable universe as a lower border for 3-A, yes, so if Bahamut is larger than that, he should qualify.

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    • Ok then, who will update his page and buff him to 3-A?

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    • Also, what religions are banned for discussion/pages on this wiki? I know that Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and ESPECIALLY Islam are off limits. But how about religions like the Bahai Faith? some religions like the Bahai faith have very few followers but they have inspirations from the abrahamic religions.

      This gets me to my next question, what is the follower limit to see if they have a place on this wiki or if they are banned.

      Also, final thing, are philosophies like gnosticm and kabbalism allowed? They aren't religions and not too many people follow them so I think they can work on this wiki

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    • I am not sure where exactly to draw the line. We just don't want any major controversy.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Ok then, who will update his page and buff him to 3-A?

      I just did it.

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    • bump 2

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    • So does anybody have a plan for how we should improve on the reliability of our Mythology pages?

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    • Antvasima wrote: So does anybody have a plan for how we should improve on the reliability of our Mythology pages?

      My list from before should still apply.

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    • Can you cite the list again please?

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    • 1. Citations for every supposed feat, description, or ability in mythology, from reputable sources on ancient or modern mythologies (primary sources, of course, being the best). If we're quoting primary mythological texts (such as the Iliad) directly, then the specific translator of the text should be noted as well. The citations should obviously have links.

      2. Detailed explanations for the cosmology of each mythology. I don't want to have to hear about 4-B Norns or the High 1-B Hindu-Buddhist multiverse without a proper explanation as to why.

      3. The separation of "normal" and "abnormal" conceptions of various mythological figures into multiple keys (e.g. no conflating Hellenistic Dionysus with Orphic Dionysus and Dionysiaca Dionysus, as the character profile does)

      4. A standard of dealing with the various names, titles, and epithets of mythological figures. In ancient cultures, such names, titles, and epithets were extremely important theologically speaking.

      5. A standard of dealing with various "high-concept" descriptions of deities (I.e. descriptions of them being "exalted beyond the heavens" or "infinite and eternal" or "spaceless and timeless"). Should we take them at face-value (as the ancient cultures most likely did, for the most part), or should we consider them as mostly hyperbole, or should be try to "contextualize" them in a modern philosophical context?

      6. A standard of dealing with ancient theologies, especially for mythologies without a specific "canon" (like classical mythology). I don't understand why we should have to consider Amaterasu as equal to Amenominakanushi based on an unnamed and unsourced old Japanese religious text that doesn't even seem to exist.

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    • I don't think 1, 4 and maybe 3 are reasonably feasible.

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    • Cropfist wrote: I don't think 1, 4 and maybe 3 are reasonably feasible.

      I do not think that we remotely have the resources for this either.

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    • Why not? It is somehow to hard to find, say, a copy of the Odyssey or of Edith Hamilton's Mythology?

      Is it too hard to note when a certain depiction of a mythological figure radically differs from a more common one?

      Is it too hard to list and explain all the titles and epithets a deity has been given?

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    • Our members do not have enough time, interest, and knowledge for in-depth thorough mythological reasearch. Sorry.

      This is not a wiki that specialises in the area. It is one that usually uses moderate hobbyist knowledge of a wide variety of diverse fictions.

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    • Most members may not, but if that neopagan guy earlier in the thread (Edenstar) was any indication, some do.

      We need to get the ones that do, like Uldmaster.

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    • Okay. Feel free to use their message walls, but I do not think that you are being remotely realistic.

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    • We can not cite every single feat because there are thousands of sources, and with stuff like Midgard Serpent it would be common sense to anyone with basic knowledge that he's planet-sized. It's like demanding every single fight in Dragon Ball be linked as evidence for their stats.

      Also, their various names are just included in the normal names stat, and different version of the same mythos might not be different enough for keys.

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    • Agreed.

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    • We shouldn’t have mythology pages in the first place, but I guess that’s a debate for another time.

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    • You do have a point. They may be too hard to tier properly due to the many different versions of the myths.

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    • Yes, there’s various sources and just as many interpretations of those sources. It’s incredibly difficult and honestly not worth the effort to try and revise.

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    • That may be correct, yes.

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    • I disagree. I think we can figure out a standard on the use of sources and their interpretations.

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    • Possibly, but we likely do not have enough members who are both knowledgeable and dedicated enough for this subject.

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    • Neonstar Norse Mythology blogs are pretty good.

      Edit: Wait, not Norse Mythology, there was another guy who was revising Norse Mythology.

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    • I’m currently undertaking the revisions on the Chinese mythologies with guidance from Sera EX

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    • Thank you for the help.

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    • Udlmaster wrote: I’m currently undertaking the revisions on the Chinese mythologies with guidance from Sera EX

      Thank you.

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Udlmaster/The_Jade_Emperor

      The Jade Emperor is ready, I'm going to clean up the Sun Wukong profile as it's not too accurate.

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    • that's big

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    • I’m still of the opinion that these kinds of files shouldn’t be allowed (for more reasons than one). Unfortunately, I am in no position to argue over it.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      I’m still of the opinion that these kinds of files shouldn’t be allowed (for more reasons than one). Unfortunately, I am in no position to argue over it.

      Do you feel the Jade Emperor profile is accurate and respectful enough to be used?

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    • ???

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    • Sera EX wrote: Yes, there’s various sources and just as many interpretations of those sources. It’s incredibly difficult and honestly not worth the effort to try and revise.

      Sera is technically correct about this, but we would need to get quite a lot of staff support before we could delete all of the mythology pages.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Sera EX wrote: Yes, there’s various sources and just as many interpretations of those sources. It’s incredibly difficult and honestly not worth the effort to try and revise.

      Sera is technically correct about this, but we would need to get quite a lot of staff support before we could delete all of the mythology pages.

      I'd be very sad to see the Mythology pages go, I feel they're a good way to get people into reading history and reading into the Culture to which they belong and would be unfair to the multitude of people (Including myself) who've put work into the profiles and read through the stories.

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    • I suppose that is a good point.

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    • @udlmaster Isn't the Jade Emperor just an Assistant of the Three Pure Ones in Daoist theology? While I will not call myself an expert I don't think Jade Emperor has ever been the Supreme Diety or any Supreme Power of Tao. He is similar to Indra of Hinduism.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      @udlmaster Isn't the Jade Emperor just an Assistant of the Three Pure Ones in Daoist theology?

      He's their Avatar/Personificaiton and was appointed by one of the Three Pure Ones.

      He was supposedly an Assistant to Pangu, but I literally couldn't find any documentation on Pangu and seems to be a very small spin off of the Story.

      I also did find another claim that there was another Emperor of Heaven before the Jade Emperor, but I again couldn't find any documentation for the claim.

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    • There are many origin though. Most of which deals with him being an Immortal of Earth. IIRC he was picked by Yuanshi rather than being an avatar

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      There are many origin though. Most of which deals with him being an Immortal of Earth. IIRC he was picked by Yuanshi rather than being an avatar

      Him being a Mortal and being the Avatar of the Three Heavenly Worthies do not contradict each other.

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    • Yeah, I cleared it up. He seems to an avatar of the pristine ones. Though the 'master of the three pivots' is a bit iffy.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      Yeah, I cleared it up. He seems to an avatar of the pristine ones.

      Three Heavenly Worthies, Three Heavenly Ones etc.

      Name them what you will.

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    • "The Jade Emperor is an avatar of the Three Pristine Ones. The relationship between them is like Emptiness ( 虛無 Xuwu ) preceding Subtle Being ( 妙有 Miaoyou ), Infinity ( 無極 Wuji ) preceding the Supreme Ultimate ( 太極 Taiji ), Non-Interference ( 無為 Wuwei ) preceding Interfering Action ( 有為 Youwei ). Therefore, the Jade Emperor is the master of the three fundamentals in charge of the pivot of Heaven, Earth and Man. The Jade Emperor sends the Great Emperor of the North Pole Star of Purple Subtlety ( 紫微北極大帝 Ziwei Beifi Dadi ) to administer the longitudes and latitudes of Heaven and Earth; the Great Emperor of the Highest Palace of Polaris ( 勾陳上宮大帝 Gouchen Shanggong Dadi ) to administer the Three Powers of Heaven, Earth, and Man and to control wars; and the Imperial God of Earth ( 后土皇地祇 Houtu Huang Di Qi ) to administer births, land, and rivers. In general, all things, Heaven, Earth, Yin and Yang, and creation, are in the charge of the Jade Emperor." Does he have control over the Three Fundamental Pivots because it portrays him as having responsibility for them like a headmaster and his ward rather than having control.

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    • Depends, as he is the fundamental principle of the Cosmos and all things exist as a part of himself.

      So, all things are just extensions of himself so he should be able to control them.

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    • I couldn't about that except a small offhand comment. In most of the datas Jade Emperor is just an assistant not an avatar. So, it is hard to think which should be taken.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      I couldn't about that except a small offhand comment. In most of the datas Jade Emperor is just an assistant not an avatar. So, it is hard to think which should be taken.

      Also, what is the document name for your citation.



      And anyway, we could likely attribute both of them, as they’re not contradictory either.

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    • Its hard. Most of the history regarding him doesn't portray 1A. I think only composite could even reach that. In Buddhism he is counterpart to Indra of Hinduism. There will be another Jade Emperor after him. In most cases he is an Immortal whose deep cultivation made him an emperor. So, pick any

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      Its hard. Most of the history regarding him doesn't portray 1A. I think only composite could even reach that. In Buddhism he is counterpart to Indra of Hinduism. There will be another Jade Emperor after him. In most cases he is an Immortal whose deep cultivation made him an emperor. So, pick any

      Okay, but what was your source for the paragraph you posted?

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    • So, could Jade Emperor be added? 



      Is everyone okay?

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    • I suppose so.

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    • Done.

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    • Are we going to bump Sun Wukong to 1-A or no??

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      Are we going to bump Sun Wukong to 1-A or no??

      No, Buddha Sun is a “Non-being”, as Sera so well described, they don’t become one with everything, they remove themselves from everything and become one with “Void”. (I am heavily paraphrasing and slightly misconstruing her words) 

      So he goes to “Unknown” for now. As for his base, I’m removing “Empowered” and “Originally” because it’s total BS.

      Sun Wukong doesn’t get any more powerful in the time frame the profile provides, he only gains more immortalities. 

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    • Yes. His first key needs to go. I have no idea where that even came from. Was that supposed to be when he was born or something? No idea, but either way it needs to go as it is non existent.

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    • Ogbunabali wrote:
      Yes. His first key needs to go. I have no idea where that even came from. Was that supposed to be when he was born or something? No idea, but either way it needs to go as it is non existent.

      Apparently not, as it scales him to Island Level based on Ruyi Jingu Bang which he doesn’t get until he’s an adult and learns how to transform.

      And he’s FAR more powerful anyway, terrifying the Dragon Gods who have 2-A feats via creating the “Dragon Realm” which has infinite realms/worlds

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    • To be honest I'm not sure how much we should be taking the word "infinite" literally. As most of the time when that word is used it just means "a lot" not actually infinite.

      A "possible/likely 2-A" would be better than outright being 2-A if you ask me.

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    • Udlmaster wrote: Done.

      Sorry. I did not notice that you had already finished a blog draft for him.

      There seems to be disagreements regarding that you rated him so ridiculously high. I will delete the finished profile until this has been settled.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Udlmaster wrote: Done.

      Sorry. I did not notice that you had already finished a blog draft for him.

      There seems to be disagreements regarding that you rated him so ridiculously high. I will delete the finished profile until this has been settled.

      There were? If so, that’s fine, I had asked Sera EX to weigh in on my rating for Type 4 transdualism to which she agreed on the account that he is a Character directly tied to specific text so he should scale even though she disagrees with Mythology existing on the wiki.

      If anyone else wants to talk about the profile, then that’s fine, it’s pretty clear cut that he is 1-A to some degree.

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    • Ogbunabali wrote:
      To be honest I'm not sure how much we should be taking the word "infinite" literally. As most of the time when that word is used it just means "a lot" not actually infinite.

      A "possible/likely 2-A" would be better than outright being 2-A if you ask me.

      If you check the blog on my profile for Sun I did actually place himat High 3-A, possibly 2-A.

      As for if it means infinite, yeah, it definitely means infinite, as it states it multiple times and there is numerous cases where the book uses infinite as well.

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    • @Ant Who were the people who had issues with the Jade Emperor profile?

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    • Immortalgodd, and given that it is such an extremely high tier, it should demand quite a lot to be accepted.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Immortalgodd, and given that it is such an extremely high tier, it should demand quite a lot to be accepted.

      I am reading the creation myth. I have a question of the limit of using religion in fiction

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Immortalgodd, and given that it is such an extremely high tier, it should demand quite a lot to be accepted.

      I mean, I did run the Jade Emperor’s profile past Sera, we agreed that Characters who are very specifically based on many texts should have them be used, like Sun Wukong being 2-B via scaling to text about the Buddha.

      The Jade Emperor got 1-A through being the Avatar of the Three heavenly Worthies who are expressions of the Dao/Tao itself and exist within Wu Jing/The Void/Wuji as well as being the Unifying principle for the Cosmos which would include Heaven and Earth.

      With Heaven being Both Taiji and Non-Dual which would require Many-Valued logic which is Type 4 Transdualism.

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    • If he really is the avatar of the Three Pure Ones then it is agreeable. But aren't the Three Pure Ones formed affer the Soft and Hard.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      If he really is the avatar of the Three Pure Ones then it is agreeable. But aren't the Three Pure Ones formed affer the Soft and Hard.

      Unlikely, as they transcend all dualities, they wouldn’t have a beginning and end, one cannot prescribe a Duality to the Three Heavenly Worthies, at least, not as such.

      From the books ive read it said that they exist within Wu Jing at the 33rd to 36th Level of deities.

      The Jade Emperor exists within Taiji and rules over all lower level deities.

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    • Hmm. I am reading the Creation Myth and its Symbolism. I will have to read further. Chinese myth is fascinating. Also, if a fiction uses the same concepts as a myth can some parts be used?

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      Hmm. I am reading the Creation Myth and its Symbolism. I will have to read further. Chinese myth is fascinating. Also, if a fiction uses the same concepts as a myth can some parts be used?

      Yeah, that’s what Sera said, which was why Sun Wukong was 2-B.

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    • Also, if you could, could you share said books? I myself would like to read more into Chinese Mythology, as it’s really hard to get any documents on it.

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    • No... I said the exact opposite.

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    • Sera EX wrote: No... I said the exact opposite.

      Then what did you say?

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    • Case-by-case

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    • And that’s for fictional series, not mythology. I already said mythology shouldn’t be featured here.

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    • Sera EX wrote: And that’s for fictional series, not mythology. I already said mythology shouldn’t be featured here.

      There is a series that heavily references Buddhism and the chinese Tao. Even when the world created by the Main character is formed similar to Pangu and Huntun. A primordia chaos force flrms and contains all aspects if reality. Those aspects are later contained in a Grand Dao. The Grand Dao shatters the Primordial Chaos. Purity and Impurity separates. Purity forms the stars and heaven and Impurities descend down. The Grand Dao forms all laws and aspects. (Some beings have their Grand Dao as Hope, Mortality, etc)

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    • Still doesn’t mean anything. Naruto heavily references Buddhism and Shinto, Magi heavily references Arabian mythology. That doesn’t mean they scale. The only reason Masadaverse has 1-A Taiji is because it is explained in the series to be 1-A, not because it simply references Taoism and Hinduism. References mean nothing. Feats take precedence over everything else.

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    • Just asking lol

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    • Also, I couldn't find about the Taiji in Dies Irae

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    • Sera EX wrote: No... I said the exact opposite.

      “Buddhist story scaling to Buddhist myth, I don’t see why it wouldn’t scale.”

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    • I mean, if we took every reference to a mythology or religion in a fictional setting as evidence for greater scaling to that real-life belief system, with all theology and philosophy in tow, then a lot of series should be 1-A to even 0 for merely referencing the Abrahamic God.

      The mythologies/religions/belief systems/philosophies/theologies themselves, however, are a completely different story, and should be analyzed in their full context, as they are. If feel that people would be shortchanged if we just took out all our mythology profiles, as each one has ties to a culture that they could become interested in.

      If a feat in a tale has different versions/interpretations, just put "Varies from X to Y" for it.

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    • @Immortal

      Do you have an issue with the Jade Emperor being 1-A?

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    • You were arguing that Journey to the West is a “fictional story”, which you could argue it is, but it’s a mythological tale. It’s not an intellectual property like a manga or whatever. Folklore and mythology are separate from fiction. My point was that Journey to the West is directly connected to Buddhism so it scaling isn’t an issue. That doesn’t mean any story that heavily references Buddhism like Asura’s Wrath) should scale to the full context of the religion.

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    • I agree with Sera (although I heavily disagree with deleting mythology profiles)

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    • Uhhhh.

      Sera, we agree, I wasn’t advocating scaling Mythology/culture/etc to intellectual properties.

      I didn’t even say that I was in the first place. I didn’t even say the Journey to the West was just an fictional story.

      I didn’t even say that during our conversation on discord.

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    • Hence, Journey to the West should not be here. That’s what I was saying :/

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    • Journey to the West isn't even intended to be a religious text, though, so there is nothing wrong with calling it a fictional story.

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    • That completely misses what I’m saying. I’m...just gonna stop talking. Do whatever you like.

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    • It's already been acknowledged that we can't scale from the original religious text without a damn good reason to and I'm fairly sure everyone's moved from that already. How does that stop Journey from being here?

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    • Sera EX wrote: That completely misses what I’m saying. I’m...just gonna stop talking. Do whatever you like.

      However, I do want your approval on the topic, I don’t want to you to feel alienated from the project, as you yourself know, you are knowledge on the current pressing topic.

      So your approval will go a long way and if you have issues with the scaling you can vocalise them and give examples so we can get the profiles to be as accurate as possible.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      "The Jade Emperor is an avatar of the Three Pristine Ones. The relationship between them is like Emptiness ( 虛無 Xuwu ) preceding Subtle Being ( 妙有 Miaoyou ), Infinity ( 無極 Wuji ) preceding the Supreme Ultimate ( 太極 Taiji ), Non-Interference ( 無為 Wuwei ) preceding Interfering Action ( 有為 Youwei ). Therefore, the Jade Emperor is the master of the three fundamentals in charge of the pivot of Heaven, Earth and Man. The Jade Emperor sends the Great Emperor of the North Pole Star of Purple Subtlety ( 紫微北極大帝 Ziwei Beifi Dadi ) to administer the longitudes and latitudes of Heaven and Earth; the Great Emperor of the Highest Palace of Polaris ( 勾陳上宮大帝 Gouchen Shanggong Dadi ) to administer the Three Powers of Heaven, Earth, and Man and to control wars; and the Imperial God of Earth ( 后土皇地祇 Houtu Huang Di Qi ) to administer births, land, and rivers. In general, all things, Heaven, Earth, Yin and Yang, and creation, are in the charge of the Jade Emperor."

      Does he have control over the Three Fundamental Pivots because it portrays him as having responsibility for them like a headmaster and his ward rather than having control.

      I do still want to know the source of this, because it’s really good source and states that the Jade Emperor rules all pivots

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    • Yes. Your analyses are always welcome and appreciated Sera.

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    • Ahhhh, thank you.

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    • Malomtek wrote: @Uldmaster here

      http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/The_Great_Jade_Emperor

      I had checked up that before. It is a composite info

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    • Malomtek wrote: I mean, if we took every reference to a mythology or religion in a fictional setting as evidence for greater scaling to that real-life belief system, with all theology and philosophy in tow, then a lot of series should be 1-A to even 0 for merely referencing the Abrahamic God.

      The mythologies/religions/belief systems/philosophies/theologies themselves, however, are a completely different story, and should be analyzed in their full context, as they are. If feel that people would be shortchanged if we just took out all our mythology profiles, as each one has ties to a culture that they could become interested in.

      If a feat in a tale has different versions/interpretations, just put "Varies from X to Y" for it.

      I don't mean referencing terms but everything. The formation of duality and Yin Yang. Dao that existed before creation,etc.

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    • @Ant

      Ive spoken with Immortal, he doesn’t have an issue with the Jade Emperor’s updated profile, he just wanted to talk about the Mythology of the Jade Emperor and wanted things cleared up.

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    • Okay.

      Are you fine wih a 1-A Jade Emperor profile Sera?

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    • Udlmaster wrote: @Ant

      Ive spoken with Immortal, he doesn’t have an issue with the Jade Emperor’s updated profile, he just wanted to talk about the Mythology of the Jade Emperor and wanted things cleared up.

      Could you change that ugly-ass profile picture in your blog revision to something more "classical", like Jade Emperor's original profile picture?

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    • I like the picture, but I'll be respectful and change it to something more traditional and classical.

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    • There we are, I think everything is ready.

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    • @Ant

      Everything has been done now, I’ve changed the picture, I made a few reasonings more clear, is there anything else the profile is missing before we allow it to pass?

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    • Well, I would prefer a confirmation from some knowledgeable member, such as Sera, that such an extremely high tier is acceptable.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, I would prefer a confirmation from some knowledgeable member, such as Sera, that such an extremely high tier is acceptable.

      Fair, I'll see if I can get her to comment here or at least agree on Discord.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • @Ant, Couldn't get a hold of Sera, however after after speaking to a bunch of people on the Discord, there seems to be no major issues with the Jade Emperor profile besides it being Mythology.

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    • Okay, and what are the summarised reasons for the extremely high tier?

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    • Antvasima wrote: Okay, and what are the summarised reasons for the extremely high tier?

      The Jade Emperor not only rules over but is the underlying principle for all creation, including Heaven, which is both Supreme Polarity (Taiji) and Non-Dual, which would require many valued logic or Fuzzy logic.

      To further cement this, in the Stories with Pan-Gu, The Jade Emperor helped create creation along side him, and in many more the Jade Emperor is an avatar/appointed by the Three Heavenly Worthies who are expressions of the Dao itself who place the Jade Emperor on the 33rd level to rule over all lower deities which ranges from the Points on the compas, to the Dragon Gods and so on.

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    • I don't think it should even be here, so I clearly don't care what tier it is. I don't have the patience, the interest, the time, or energy to look at the profile. Using the standards of vs debating though, I wouldn't consider certain concepts as 1-A, especially in Taoism, but in the actual philosophy they are because fallacies like NLF don't apply in real life.

      See the issue here? Not to mention there are numerous incarnations of the Tao (which is literally Dharma of Buddhism/Hinduism or derivative of it) and depending on the source (of which there are many) things like Taiji can be anywhere from 3-A to 0. I don't even know anymore because the new system is a thing. That's all you're getting from me. I'm frustrated with life as it is and trying to cope with the constant feeling of anger and anxiety, I don't want to talk about this crap :/

      If Ultima gives the "Okay" to this, I'm fine with the tier I guess, because he's considerably knowledgeable on both the new system and general mythological concepts and ideas.

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    • @Sera

      Okay. I am sorry that you are stressed out. Please follow the advise that I gave you in private. It generally helps.

      @All

      Is somebody willing to ask Ultima to comment here please?

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    • I’m sorry to hear that’s you’re stressed out by this.

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    • Antvasima wrote: We will not add any major modern religions to the wiki. It would severely offend too many people.

      I would appreciate if we immediately drop this subject so the discussion does not get out of hand again.

      If they die out, can we make profiles for them?

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    • The God Of Procrastination wrote: If they die out, can we make profiles for them?

      Yes, in a few hundred years

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    • If we allow profiles for mythology tied to modern religion, that is inevitable anyway. Since for some reason, the close relationship between mythology and religion is blatantly ignored.

      On a power-scaling wiki such as this, we have to treat everything with scrutiny. We don’t place anything claimed to be omnipotent at 0 just because, but in reality we can’t use NLF as an argument. It does not apply to real philosophy or religion and thus the mythology that is spawned from them.

      Jade Emperor is a literal deity in Chinese religion and Taoist theology. Shénism (Chinese religion) is the most widespread Chinese religion. Mythology can be downstream from religion or one could say they are comparatively similar. If we don’t allow Christianity, we likewise don’t allow Christian Mythology. Same with Hinduism and Hindu Mythology, or Islam and Arabian Mythology. Should be pretty straightforward, right? I’m not talking bout mere legends like Jack Frost, I’m talking about myths closely tied to modern religion and yes Shénism is a modern religion.

      Folklore should be left alone entirely, it has no place here alongside Goku, Sonic, and Pikachu. Can’t we just focus on modern fiction for once?

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    • Maybe it should have a different wikia?

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    • I agree with Sera. If the Jade Emperor is closely tied to a modern religion, we should not feature him.

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    • Taoism is in fact a modern religion (although it isn’t an organized religion per se, like the Abrahamic religions are so calling it a “religion” is rejected by most scholars so let’s call it a philosophy). However, it has several millions of followers.

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    • What Sera said in the first paragraph of her post is basically my take as well, and I personally think we (As in, the wiki itself) shouldn't consider actual religious concepts as being anything, tiering-wise. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think religion is outside of scrutiny or anything of the sort, but it is still in a grey area that is extremely subjective and ostensibly separable from fiction, and thus we can't just put it into a framework where we can analyze and nitpick it as we do to any other fictional verse, at least not without displays of some severe cultural insensitivity.

      That's because faith and belief is something that people impose upon their worldview and experiences, and incorporate into their own world. If you went solely by purely religious context and narrative, then something like the Taiji or the Tao would definitely be at least 1-A, but that'd be because we can't apply fallacies like hasty generalizations to something as subjective and generalized as it, and because it'd be ridiculous to suggest something like it is limited in any way in the context I am talking about here.

      Meanwhile, if we analyzed it through the cold lens that we use in a VS Debating / Indexing context, then you could interpret the Taiji to be as low as Low 1-C, because of our common practice of nitpicking stuff to death through the use of fallacies and being overall very strict when it comes to giving stupidly high tiers to... anything, really. As you can infer, that obviously clashes with the interpretation that the Taiji can't be anything but 1-A or even higher (maybe even untierable), which looks at it through purely religious and metaphysical lenses.

      That's all I really have to say on the matter.

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    • Thank you for the evaluations. I definitely don't think that we should feature religious figures related to Taoism in that case.

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    • Does that mean we should axe sun wukong because he is related to buddhism

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Does that mean we should axe sun wukong because he is related to buddhism

      Sun Wukong is a purely fictional character, so no. Journey to the West is, in fact, widely considered by modern scholars an allegory for the Chinese government of the 14-16th centuries. It was never ever conceived of as a religious text by the Buddhist or Chinese peoples of the time to begin with.

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    • @Ultima

      That's case-by-case.

      Multiple Native-Indian mythologies of the old possess concepts that are similar to those found in Eastern religions, yet we wouldn't consider them "undiscussable" through VS Debating lens. We just need to watch out for how closely related it is to an actual religion, IMO.

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    • Of course. My problem is with attempting to tier religion itself, not fictional works or similar types that utilize concepts similar to them. I am mostly saying that what we should avoid is putting any character at some stupid high tier because of a religious interpretation of a certain philosophical concept which doesn't necessarily translate to VS Debating lenses. It's a case-by-case basis, as you said.

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    • However, the profile itself doesn’t use any Religious aspects of The Jade Emperor and only the philosophical and Mythological aspects.

      And defiantly the Philosophical aspects are scalable as they should be able to be placed under the same level of scrutiny we place everything under, if not more.

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    • I'm with Sera and Ultima that a lot of our Chinese / Asian Myth profiles suck. Even Sun Wukong actually.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I'm with Sera and Ultima that a lot of our Chinese / Asian Myth profiles suck. Even Sun Wukong actually.

      That’s not what they’re saying, we’re discussing the revised version of the Jade Emperor profile and the connotations it has.

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    • Journey to the West is just the fictional retelling of a real life pilgrimage.

      Xuanzang is not a fictional character, he's a real person credited with founding the Chinese Faxiang Buddhist sect. Yes, his guarduans like Sun Wukong are fictional characters.

      Also, Wukong's 2-B rating comes from Buddhism itself, not anything in the actual story.

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    • So if his 2-B rating comes from buddhism?? if it comes from a religion, that would be a problem then if his tiering is tied with buddhism

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      Journey to the West is just the fictional retelling of a real life pilgrimage.

      Xuanzang is not a fictional character, he's a real person credited with founding the Chinese Faxiang Buddhist sect. Yes, his guarduans like Sun Wukong are fictional characters.

      Also, Wukong's 2-B rating comes from Buddhism itself, not anything in the actual story.

      Which is why I think that the Mythological characters should be fine as even the cultures parody and flanderise thems

      While dojng research on the Jade Emperor I found multiple Chinese child books on the topic showing it’s not taken overtly seriously.

      So Mythological characters should be fine and as long as the profile doesn’t delve into the religious background like the Wukong Profile does, as it doesn’t give massive paragraphs about how the Buddha is better than other “fodder religions”, it should be fine and no offence can be found.

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    • Jade Emperor in myth and religion is different though.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote:
      Jade Emperor in myth and religion is different though.

      They’re seen as the same being, even if the way they act and such are different.

      Like a watcher would think of Goku (Super) and Goku (Manga) as the same person even if there are different things

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    • So should we remove the Sun Wukong profile as well, if it is partially derived from Buddhist scripture?

      Also, are there similar problems with any other profiles that we host?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      So should we remove the Sun Wukong profile as well, if it is partially derived from Buddhist scripture?

      Also, are there similar problems with any other profiles that we host?

      Not really, having a religious origin definitely shouldn’t have a profile be deleted, and for Mythological characters to scale to Mythological/Philosophical feats is fine.



      There is currently no logical argument present which should have them be removed.

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    • Let me repeat myself:

      Wukong's 2-B rating comes from Buddhism itself, not anything in the actual story.

      This is clearly a problem. It's not even about religion at this point, it's about a character scaling to something not within their story.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Let me repeat myself:

      Wukong's 2-B rating comes from Buddhism itself, not anything in the actual story.

      This is clearly a problem. It's not even about religion at this point, it's about a character scaling to something not within their story.

      Which was something I literally fixed in my rendition of the Wukong Profile.

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    • Antvasima wrote: So should we remove the Sun Wukong profile as well, if it is partially derived from Buddhist scripture?

      Also, are there similar problems with any other profiles that we host?

      As I said above, Sun Wukong, even at the time he was written, was never viewed as anything more than a fictional character by anyone. Deleting him would be stupid. If his current rating is based off of Buddhist scriptures, that's something else and a whole 'nother issue, unrelated to his right to be here.

      Speaking of which, I'm not exactly sure if Sun Wukong's rating being derived from the Daoist scriptures is an issue or not.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      Let me repeat myself:

      Wukong's 2-B rating comes from Buddhism itself, not anything in the actual story.

      This is clearly a problem. It's not even about religion at this point, it's about a character scaling to something not within their story.

      Then find something else to scale him to.

      I'm sure there are plenty of other pertinent feats in Journey to the West to use for his profile. Why should he be deleted based on something that can be fixed via the same type of revision process we implement for other characters every day of the week?

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    • From what it seems, Daoism as a philosophy (So specifically the philosophy branch) should be totally fine for use, as a Philosophy it is already held to a higher standard than VSB, so it is is fine to use.

      We don’t have to use religion for any of the profiles, so it all should be fine.

      To note as well, my rendition of Wukong’s page doesn’t feature the Buddhist scaling, his Buddhist key is unknown because we don’t know how powerful the Buddha is, just that he is more powerful than Wukong.

      My Jade Emperor rendition only features Daoist philosophy.

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    • Sun wukong existed before JttW though, he was a legendary cultural icon

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    • It's not the same thing nor the same character. It's someone else he was based on, so...irrelevant. Multiple mythologies outright rip-off or base characters in older mythologies, but we don't treat them as the "same god"

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    • Just like Thomas Diesel and Jotaro Kujo aren't the same person.

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    • The God Of Procrastination wrote:
      Just like Thomas Diesel and Jotaro Kujo aren't the same person.

      Could have fooled me.

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    • I am fine with if the Sun Wukong profile is revised instead.

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    • I never said delete him based off having feats from an outside source. Me wanting that file gone has to do with a different point. That should be clear based on the change in direction of the conversation.

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    • Yes, that was my own take. Sorry if I caused confusion.

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    • So, now that all this is sorted, can I apply the Jade Emperor profile?

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    • You still haven't cleared up the issues with how it should be deleted (quoted below). AND you haven't gotten the 1-A justification approved by an expert. I see no reason why the Jade Emperor profile could be applied now.

      Sera EX wrote:

      Jade Emperor is a literal deity in Chinese religion and Taoist theology. Shénism (Chinese religion) is the most widespread Chinese religion. Mythology can be downstream from religion or one could say they are comparatively similar. If we don’t allow Christianity, we likewise don’t allow Christian Mythology. Same with Hinduism and Hindu Mythology, or Islam and Arabian Mythology. Should be pretty straightforward, right? I’m not talking bout mere legends like Jack Frost, I’m talking about myths closely tied to modern religion and yes Shénism is a modern religion.

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    • >You still haven't cleared up the issues with how it should be deleted (quoted below). 

      I don’t agree with it believe deleted full stop, I don’t think any Mythology pages should be under any (reasonable) circumstances.

      >AND you haven't gotten the 1-A justification approved by an expert. I see no reason why the Jade Emperor profile could be applied now.

      Everyone has been asked to weight on the profile and no one hasn’t brought up an issue with the profile’s justifications.

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    • I don’t agree with it believe deleted full stop, I don’t think any Mythology pages should be under any (reasonable) circumstances.

      You don't agree, but other people don't agree with you. Guess we're at an impasse then.

      Everyone has been asked to weight on the profile and no one hasn’t brought up an issue with the profile’s justifications.

      Having people not evaluate your 1-A justifications doesn't mean they're automatically accepted. Ask Ergenverse supporters. Be patient.

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    • >You don't agree, but other people don't agree with you. Guess we're at an impasse then.

      I believe the people who want the Mythology profiles outweighs the number who don’t. 

      >Having people not evaluate your 1-A justifications doesn't mean they're automatically accepted. Ask Ergenverse supporters. Be patient.

      I don’t mind waiting, however, this issue just seems like it’s being thrown between multiple admins and is just going to not be resolved.

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    • I believe the people who want the Mythology profiles outweighs the number who don’t.

      Sorry if I wasn't clear. There's a specific issue with the Jade Emperor profile which doesn't apply to any other Mythology profile we feature, and I quoted that specific issue.

      I don’t mind waiting, however, this issue just seems like it’s being thrown between multiple admins and is just going to not be resolved.

      I'm pretty sure Zaratthustra had to wait months for his 1-A cosmology blogs to be seriously considered by admins, and even then it was initially by Wokistan, not one of the traditional "1-A experts". You don't get it automatically accepted because you saw no progress after 3 days.

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    • >Sorry if I wasn't clear. There's a specific issue with the Jade Emperor profile which doesn't apply to any other Mythology profile we feature, and I quoted that specific issue.

      And I’ve already said multiple times that I haven’t used any religious aspects  for the profile, only the philosophical aspects, which is why the issue doesn’t apply.

      >You don't get it automatically accepted because you saw no progress after 3 days.

      Where did I say it should automatically get accepted? And waiting three months seems like an inordinate amount of time for people to take a look at something to see if it is logical.

      If you don’t get what I’m saying, I’m saying that it seems like people were intentionally wasting time.

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    • And I’ve already said multiple times that I haven’t used any religious aspects for the profile, only the philosophical aspects, which is why the issue doesn’t apply.

      I understand that, and the part I quoted from Sera acknowledges that. It's still an issue. I think people would still take issue with using the mythological Jesus from the Easter Bunny and Christmas myths, even if no text from The Bible is used. (I understand if this analogy isn't perfectly reflective of the Jade Emperor, that's just because there's no good analogies for it in Judeo-Christian mythology, but if there was, I would take issue with its inclusion).

      Where did I say it should automatically get accepted?

      You asked if it could be applied. That's asking for (or assuming) acceptance, unless you think revisions get applied without being accepted???

      And waiting three months seems like an inordinate amount of time for people to take a look at something to see if it is logical.

      Certain feats taking eternities to get looked at does indeed suck.

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    • We already rejected the Jade Emperor profile. It will not be featured in this wiki. Sorry.

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    • Thought it was only rejected by me.

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    • >I think people would still take issue with using the mythological Jesus from the Easter Bunny and Christmas myths

      To which the argument sends the precedent that even if it is from another work that because it shares the same name or is loosely related then they’re not allowed to be used.

      So, all of SMT must go because they literally pull from and add detail which directly ties them to the real life versions.

      “But SMT is a fictional verse so it doesn’t count”

      Doesn’t matter, according to the current logic you’re using if there is any connection to the character then the profile must go.

      The Jade Emperor profile used has a connection but no actual religious feats/info used, SMT has a connect but no actual religious feats/info used. Do you see how this falls apart?

      So, most of the wiki is gone with this logic.

      >You asked if it could be applied.

      So you agree I didn’t expect it to be automatically accepted because I asked if it would be, meaning there’s still a process of events, meaning it’s not automatic.

      >Thought it was only rejected by me.

      From what I thought was due in course to your distaste for Mythology existing on the wiki and not with the profile specifically.

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    • Ant and I agreed. Udl disagreed. Kep, Ultima, Matt, King, and everyone else refrained from commenting on the specific Jade Emperor issue as far as I can tell.

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    • Agnaa wrote: Ant and I agreed. Udl disagreed. Kep, Ultima, Matt, King, and everyone else refrained from commenting on the specific Jade Emperor issue as far as I can tell.

      Agreed to...?

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    • Axing the jade emperor

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    • Can we stop derailing this thread and make a seperate staff only (as well as a few staff approved non staff) thread so they can debate what mythology to have and what mythology not to have for this wiki

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    • @Udl To which the argument sends the precedent that even if it is from another work that because it shares the same name or is loosely related then they’re not allowed to be used.

      So, all of SMT must go because they literally pull from and add detail which directly ties them to the real life versions.

      No, it's not about sharing the same name. It's about being mythology that was taken somewhat seriously and shares characters with a currently active religion.

      Characters from SMT are not mythology.

      Doesn’t matter, according to the current logic you’re using if there is any connection to the character then the profile must go.

      The Jade Emperor profile used has a connection but no actual religious feats/info used, SMT has a connect but no actual religious feats/info used. Do you see how this falls apart?

      You misunderstand my logic.

      So you agree I didn’t expect it to be automatically accepted because I asked if it would be, meaning there’s still a process of events, meaning it’s not automatic.

      Yep, my bad. You didn't want it automatically accepted, you only wanted an extraordinarily high rating to be added without it being accepted. I'll try to use better language next time so you don't have to nitpick my words.

      Agreed to...?

      I was responding to Sera, sorry if that was unclear.

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    • >No, it's not about sharing the same name. It's about being mythology that was taken somewhat seriously and shares characters with a currently active religion.

      Sharing characters require them to often share names, Jade Emperor from Mythology shares name with Jade Emperor from Daoist philosophy.

      >Characters from SMT are not mythology.

      They directly tie to Mythology, they pull from Mythology, they give direct facts from the religions and Mythology, they take the names from Religions etc.

      Also, Mythology and “fictional stories” are no different in any respect.

      >Yep, my bad. You didn't want it automatically accepted, you only wanted an extraordinarily high rating to be added without it being accepted.

      Me saying “can this be added” is asking for approval/acceptance, the only way I would have done it without approval would have been to go on ahead, which I didn’t, I asked.

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    • Sharing characters require them to often share names, Jade Emperor from Mythology shares name with Jade Emperor from Daoist philosophy.

      I'm pretty sure this is true.

      They directly tie to Mythology, they pull from Mythology, they give direct facts from the religions and Mythology, they take the names from Religions etc.

      They pull things from mythology but they are not mythology.

      Also, Mythology and “fictional stories” are no different in any respect.

      I think they are different.

      Me saying “can this be added” is asking for approval/acceptance, the only way I would have done it without approval would have been to go on ahead, which I didn’t, I asked.

      Fair enough.

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    • >I think they are different.

      In what way? Are they both not a grouping of words formulating a complex narrative which is usually to teach either a lesson or to give knowledge on either world or lore through characters acting as a medium?

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    • They both have those qualities but that does not make them the exact same thing.

      Even religions that are currently widely followed hold all those qualities, yet we wouldn't say

      Religion and fictional stories are no different in any respect.
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    • I mean, are religions not as well?

      And now before people get offended for other people, Agnaa, do you consider Star Wars a fictional story?

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    • Yes, I consider Star Wars a fictional story.

      To hopefully stop us from going down this rabbit hole, I consider religion/mythology/fictional stories different through cultural context, rather than through textual substance.

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    • Agnaa wrote: Yes, I consider Star Wars a fictional story.

      To hopefully stop us from going down this rabbit hole, I consider religion/mythology/fictional stories different through cultural context, rather than through textual substance.

      However, Jediism, which is a real life religious sect. Do you now see how they are literally the same thing?

      Culture behind them is totally irrelevant to these purposes, because something having culture =\= being used on a scaling website.

      I’m sure Star Wars has had a bigger impact on Western Culture than Daoism has, Will you now Star Wars to be banned from the site due to greater cultural impact and Jediism being a real life modern religion.

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    • Jediism is a mock religion with 10 followers. We ban religions with large amounts of followers and are widely followed today, which includes shenism.

      Star Wars is a fictional story, and discussing it isn't as controversial and won't get as heated of arguments as discussing a widely practiced religion.

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    • Please read the Mythology page. Jediism is allowed because it doesn't have a significant quantity of modern day followers, and many of those that exist are agnostic.

      Culture behind them is relevant to these purposes, which is why we don't have profiles for the Christian God.

      Being allowed on the site isn't really related to how much impact a thing has on Western Culture. The Mythology page already explains certain criteria for why mythology can be disallowed.

      Also, can you please try to either argue within the current rules or argue to change the rules? Because it really seems like the arguments you're pushing for would allow Christianity/Buddhism/etc. to get profiles, but you don't seem to be changing the rules towards that.

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    • We don't have profiles for YHWH cause he is from an active religion, simple as that. That's pretty much the only standard we should apply, using common sense as the denominator, if we're going to go down that rabbit hole.

      There's no reason to, though.

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    • @Kep And the question now is, should a character from an active religion be allowed to have a profile if only folklore/mythology is considered, and not quotes from the religious text itself?

      I think it shouldn't since it still presents the exact same issues.

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    • I don't necessarily disagree with you either.

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    • Why is Pan Gu only low 2C though?

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    • I agree with Agnaa. We should preferably drop this issue.

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    • >Agnaa

      However, now Agnaa you’ve had to disregard your previous definition for the default one on the Mythology page, your definition was the only way you could say that the Jade Emperor profile itself shouldn’t be around due to culture, which the Mythology definition doesn’t use, and merely requires that of Religious text is to be used that that Religion be virtually dead.

      So, now that you’ve moved onto the Mythology definition and dropped the cultural one, you cannot fault the profile because it fits within that definition, because it doesn’t use Religion.

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    • Immortalgodd wrote: Why is Pan Gu only low 2C though?

      He’s not, he should be above the Jade Emperor, however, if Jade isn’t allowed then Pan-Gu and Wukong will also have to go

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    • I am fine with deleting Pan-Gu, but it seems like Sun Wukong is fine if we remove all scaling from Taoist and Buddhist scriptures.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I am fine with deleting Pan-Gu, but it seems like Sun Wukong is fine if we remove all scaling from Taoist and Buddhist scriptures.

      But that’s what I’m doing with Jade, so what’s the issue with Pan-Gu and Jade Emperor doing the exact same thing?

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    • I suppose that strictly basing it on what was said in Journey to the West might be an idea, but the profile would still be too easily confused with actual religious scripture by our visitors. Sorry.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I suppose that strictly basing it on what was said in Journey to the West might be an idea, but the profile would still be too easily confused with actual religious scripture by our visitors. Sorry.

      I mean, to use SMT as a scapegoat again, I’m sure initially people were confused that YHVH from there was the realm YHVH.

      Also, one can place a note saying that The Jade Emperor isn’t using Religious text on his profile and therefore isn’t the same as the Religious figure.

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    • Pan Gu was formed when the world was nondual. He was the one who split it into Yin and Yang with his legendary axe. Creating duality.

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    • "Long, long ago—not in a land before time, but a time before land—there was nothing in the universe except an enormous egg-shaped entity.

      Inside the “egg,” the opposite forces of yin and yang were all scrambled; it was a complete mess. But over time, the interactions between various substances and energies eventually conceived a being—a shaggy, horned giant named Pan Gu."

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    • It is very hard to mistake the Shin Megami Tensei YHVH character for the original religious figure, but perhaps we should rename the page to "YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)" instead.

      The Jade Emperor would be much easier to confuse for the original article.

      You are not going to get this profile passed no matter how much you bother me and the others about it, so I would appreciate if you please permanently drop the subject and stop wasting our time and energy. Thank you.

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    • Pan Gu is just a mythological figure though.

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    • Not a religious one? I thought that he was a part of the same religious background as the Jade Emperor.

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    • >It is very hard to mistake the Shin Megami Tensei YHVH character for the original religious figure

      At first it would be but the profile would dispel that, and we can do the same here, we can dispel that idea by having a note on the profile.

      >You are not going to get this profile passed no matter how much you bother me and the others about it

      I’m not bothering anyone, I’m presenting my arguments on a forum and are responding to arguments presenting against me, no one is forced to reply, so this is just a mischaracterisation, if you feel bothered then do not respond.

      And even though I have constantly countered the arguments to which you agree with and have used the logic to which you agree with against you and other arguments, it seems this is just a default which is disappointing to say the least.

      >and stop wasting our time and energy.

      If you feel like you’re wasting your time then do not respond, you don’t have to, most of all if you feel like you’re wasting your time because you’re not going to contribute to the discussion and are going to get frustrated that counter arguments are going to be presented and people aren’t going to take every word as law.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Not a religious one? I thought that he was a part of the same religious background as the Jade Emperor.

      According to most sources I've found online, Pangu is widely disregarded as mythological by the modern Chinese peoples, so not really.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Antvasima wrote: Not a religious one? I thought that he was a part of the same religious background as the Jade Emperor.

      Pan Gu is now widely disregarded as mythological by the Chinese, so not really.

      Pan-Gu is heavily tied to the Jade Emperor, such as the Jade Emperor being his assistant, also ties to Daoist philosophy such as splitting Taiji into Yin and Yang.

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    • Udlmaster wrote:

      At first it would be but the profile would dispel that, and we can do the same here, we can dispel that idea by having a note on the profile.

      @Sera, Agnaa, and Kepekley

      What do you think about this solution?

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    • Umm. No. PanGu is not connected to Jade Emperor. The Myth between the two is different.

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    • Meaning, would it be fine if we name the page as "Jade Emperor (Journey to the West)", only base it on that work, and insert a footnote about it?

      Udlmaster does have a point regarding that we allow YHVH (Which should really be renamed to "YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)" to avoid confusion.)

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    • Immortalgodd wrote: Umm. No. PanGu is not connected to Jade Emperor. The Myth between the two is different.

      IIRC wasn’t the Jade Emperor the Assistant to Pan-Gu in creating all creation.

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    • YHVH from SMT and YHWH from Tokyo Babel are modern fictional characters. They are loosely (keyword: loosely) based upon their religious-mythological counterparts. Yahweh was never described or depicted as a giant golden head or a robot.

      Modern fiction of today isn’t comparable to fiction from thousands of years of ago, that’s why we don’t call Naruto a folktale, it’s not a cultural story from years past. Now, as for renaming YHVH to “YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)”, I agree but mostly because the Brahman profile is called Brahman (Shin Megami Tensei), same with Shekinah (Shin Megami Tensei), Lucifer, etc. It’s just inconsistent naming. He’s also not the only YHVH in fiction. There’s Deus (known as YHWH in Japan) from Xenogears and YHWH from Tokyo Babel (currently just listed as “God” for some reason).

      Anyway on the main topic: I don’t really care if the Jade Emperor is allowed or not anymore, but let’s say it is. I’m not seeing anything 1-A from it or even High 1-A for that matter, especially since we can’t just rely solely on Daoist theology to scale something.

      If we accept mythology profiles, we must treat them with the same scrutiny as regular fiction. If SMT Brahman isn’t 1-A for merely being...well...Brahman, then the Jade Emperor wouldn’t be 1-A solely based on references to Daoist cosmology. However, what he would scale to, I don’t know. I mean, most mythological stories that borrow from religion are deeply rooted in such, so it’s only natural they would scale from a more casual sense, but we cannot do that in a power-scaling wiki with standards such as ours. This is why I feel those kinds of mythology files (not myth files in general, mind you) should just be ignored.

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    • If I rename the YHVH page, a lot of other pages preferably need to get their links to it updated. Would anybody be willing to help out with this?

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=YHVH&namespace=0

      I also agree with Sera about that if we allow the "Jade Emperor (Journey to the West)" page, it should only be based on JttW and nothing else whatsoever.

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    • Wouldn’t it be easier to set up a redirect?

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    • Usually, yes, but in this case, that would imply that the wiki officially recognises the SMT version as an accurate portrayal of the original religious deity.

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    • In that case, I’ll run through the links and change them.

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    • I’m going on ahead and changing the links, don’t mind the red links everyone they’ll be automatically fixed once Ant renames the YHVH page.

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    • Thank you for the help. I will rename the page then. Christianity at least usually encourages its followers to try to be non-violent, charitable, and turn the other cheek, even though human nature (which is largely contrary to all of that) often gets in the way, so I would rather not give the impression that we condemn them as a whole.

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    • I have now renamed the page: YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)

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    • > If we accept mythology profiles, we must treat them with the same scrutiny as regular fiction.

      I am fairly sure that's what we've all been arguing since the beginning, and I agree with it.

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    • About Pan Gu?

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    • Done with the pages btw.

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    • @Sera

      Thank you very much for helping