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  • DarkDragonMedeus
    DarkDragonMedeus closed this thread because:
    OP request
    06:52, July 15, 2019

    so basically I got some scans from ZaStando27 (ya know the big bad menace that was extremely oppressive about Sonics Tier, better now and I can tell and his arguments are less off.......) And some debater named Cvc All-Ender showing that TOBA is Indeed TOAA’s coined opposite (satan/god’s hulk basically) 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Al_Ewing/status/1088137492363124736

    TOBA’s direct influence is about as grave and special as TOAA

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Al_Ewing/status/1093619244519051265

    And Y’know the arguments about Hulk possibly not thunderclapping/holding back (that first one sounds wrong lol) “true” TOBA? Well here Al Ewing is completely oblivious to the concept (it matters because he writes TOBA) 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Al_Ewing/status/1149754418717450240  Al Ewing: “I don’t think TOBA or TOAA have “true forms”. The smoke monster makes a good signifier, but even that looks different with different artists.” 

    and when he’s asked again (for Confirmation)  Al Ewing: “I feel like you’re overthinking it. It’s like asking if the “real” TOAA looks like Jack Kirby or that guy Spidey met or a blank white page.”

    meaning that cloud monster Hulk Held Back with a thunderclap long enough to let everyone leave the green door dimension? That was TOBA..... 

    so is there a chance TOBA can get a profile and/or get scaled upwards to “possibly 1-A - 0” or are we gonna have to further discuss this?

    and what about Immortal Hulk? He did send TOBA away for some noticeable amount of time.

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    • Extra: Oh and because I have a music worm https://youtu.be/aMimIZJiMp0 Horses by PNB Rock

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    • It makes sense for the entity in question to be a counterpart to TOAA, but his best showing is being stated to dwarf Mephisto in power, so I'm personally unsure about this.

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    • ^ No no no, that’s fine but the writer al Ewing did also state they both have an influence and each is just as special as the other.

      But it’s a outlier that hulk held him back (it’s confirmed he didn’t beat the One Below All so there’s that too)

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    • Tier 2-C, possibly 0

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    • ^ Sounds like it to me.

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    • TOBA 

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    • ^ The One Below All

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    • Rei Rubro wrote: TOBA 

      kkkk

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    • Ohhhh I get it now.

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    • The One Below All is just a devil, he's really not so high up there in the Marvel Hierarchy.

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    • Not just any devil but TOAA’s coin negative, his influence is as special as TOAA according to Ewing.

      I’ll see what more people think of this.

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    • Hulk was actually amped when he fought TOBA as it's stated that he gets stronger as he gets closer to where the gamma explosion took place

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    • No disputes from me in regards to TOBA’s place in the marvel hierarchy. But I feel like we need to point out that he/it operates under a different set of rules than most cosmic entities.

      Just to reiterate my point in the last thread on this matter:

      • TOBA is incapable of directly influencing the physical world with out a host soul or body
      • Even when he’s possessed a soul or body he hasn’t shown to amplify their powers in a significant way.

      Keeping both these things in mind, we clearly can’t scale the Hulk to TOBA based on the lore surrounding him, since it literally cannot express its power in any meaningful way. The only way we’ve actually seen TOBA directly influence the world is by subtly influencing ppl to get results desirable to it, like causing the men at the bar to fight and messing with Brian Banner through his dreams.

      Hence why the Hulk can blow it away, it’s a character that literally can’t fight back in normal circumstances.

      As further evidence Brian Banner (the current host) here describes the rules that TOBA functions under and then here basically gives us the TOBA’s endgame.

      Interestingly enough TOBA may be the only cosmic entity that is “weaker” in its true body than in an avatar or while possessing someone. When I say “weaker” I mean it in the sense that while it is probably one of marvels mightiest beings it cannot directly apply its power on anything.

      This weakness will probably be circumvented at some point, but at the moment these are the rules as I understand them.

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    • I also remember that somebody asked Al Ewing about this previously, and he said that the Hulk did definitely not one-shot the Devil/TOBA.

      Also, all that he says above is that TOBA is that he is beyond physical form, which we already knew, if he is similar to TOAA.

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    • And if the Hulk had defeated a 1-A entity, it would definitely be a one of Marvel's most extreme outliers.

      In other comics with the Al Ewing Hulk, he is consistently severely damaged by Bushwacker's firearms btw, so we end up with the 1-A handgun argument mentioned in our page for Marvel and DC Comics outliers.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      The One Below All is just a devil, he's really not so high up there in the Marvel Hierarchy.

      He is not just a Devil... It's literally stated that TOBA is God Absence. It's basically shown and implied he is equal and the opposite of TOAA based on the kabbalah concept they decided to choose.

      Keter = TOAA/heaven as it's above all and is the divine unity. Thaumiel= TOBA/hell as it is below all.

      All things is based on kaballah concepts within this comic and use the concepts correctly.

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    • Antvasima wrote: And if the Hulk had defeated a 1-A entity, it would definitely be a one of Marvel's most extreme outliers.

      In other comics with the Al Ewing Hulk, he is consistently severely damaged by Bushwacker's firearms btw, so we end up with the 1-A handgun argument mentioned in our page for Marvel and DC Comics outliers.


      Problem though? I never said he oneshotted or defeated TOBA I said he held TOBA back just long enough for everyone to escape the green door dimension, which qualifies for 1-A and like I said it is a massive outlier.

      1) I already showed a writer statement about how TOBA is TOAA’s equivalent coined opposite.

      2) It is stated that TOBA’s direct influence in marvel is as grave and special as TOAA, so Fighting TOBA is like in some ways dealing with TOAA in a sense. That’s my 2 cents on it to be frank with you guys. We’re going to deny what the writer says when it confirms the speculation we’ve all been arguing over whether it’s in another thread or a completely different site? I really suggest you guys think this over....

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    • About The One Below All there's still to many questions than answers. Yes, without doubt it is the direct opposite of TOOA, but the best about this, in my opinion, is to wait and create the profile when most of the doubts are resolved. I say this to avoid any mistake or bad assumptions about the character.

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    • DanielIH15 wrote:
      About The One Below All there's still to many questions than answers. Yes, without doubt it is the direct opposite of TOOA, but the best about this, in my opinion, is to wait and create the profile when most of the doubts are resolved. I say this to avoid any mistake or bad assumptions about the character.

      In a sense you are correct, we haven’t even seen the other cosmic deities reaction to the opposite of their supreme god.

      but on another note he is the opposite of TOAA and has the same direct influence has him.



      i say likely 2C to possibly 1-A| Possibly Tier 0 

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    • I don’t think 2 tier 0 cannot exist in the same verse

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    • ^ in certain circumstances it can Tier 1-A’s are to 0 a Point Level is to High Outerverse Level. 

      TOBA And TOAA happen to be at the same stool.

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    • What about Featherine and the creator then? or Writer and Overvoid? or Azathoth and Yog?

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    • ^^^^^^^^ yeah

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    • ??? First I’m hearing of it

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    • There can be two tier 0’s in certain occasions.

      i believe what did was talking about is there being 2 omnipotents (even though TOAA isn’t Omnipotent anymore)

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    • TOBA was also stated to another face of creation itself by Doctor Voodoo 

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    • The Primal Monitor and The Writer are co-existing Tier 0s from the same verse (DC Comics) currently, though I have heard talk about removing the Writer for being too headcanon-nish.

      Even then, Azathoth and Yog Sothoth still fit the same example. So yep, a verse can have multiple 0s.

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    • Davidsteel1 wrote:
      ??? First I’m hearing of it

      The reason why is because the tiering system of vsbw got changed.

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    • I 100% agree with Tier 0 TOBA ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

      There is no other key for TOBA

      TOBA is supreme

      TOBA is life

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    • ^ Can’t tell if trolling or legit.

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    • I don't agree. The only thing he has going is his name and supposed place in the hierarchy. He has no feats that indicate Tier 1 stuff.

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    • ^ he definitely has statements though. If his direct influence is equally as relevant/grave as TOAA then he could be 1-A - 0 by scaling. But feats? Yeah we might have to wait until like Immortal Hulk #90 or Ultimates #175 to get something concrete. But right now he’s TOAA Level by writer statements from the looks of it. 

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    • And proof of this is in one of his tweets he says it will take quite a while to see the cosmic deities point of view/reaction when they see TOBA. 

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    • So i suggest giving him a possible tier 1A - 0 and likely 2C rating until that happens. 

      Because we should not ignore this.

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    • It's literally confirmed in the comics that he is equal and opposite to toaa

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    • ^ that is in a way true.

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    • The Tetromino King wrote:
      It's literally confirmed in the comics that he is equal and opposite to toaa

      By feats he's not.

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    • basically he is not just a devil. it is also confirmed in the comments that all these marvel devils and hells are just people and location. While below isn't a location but god face turned away.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      The Tetromino King wrote:
      It's literally confirmed in the comics that he is equal and opposite to toaa
      By feats he's not.

      He has statements but barely any feats yet. Al said he will appear in more issues as well.

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    • The statements are being misinterpreted I feel.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      The Tetromino King wrote:
      It's literally confirmed in the comics that he is equal and opposite to toaa
      By feats he's not.

      Sometimes not everything is about feats (not saying it doesn’t matter), Statements can also matter when trying to scale who and who and get to where endgame is as a verdict. 

      It would be flabbergastingly sad if this gets looked over until it’s stated in the books even though it was confirmed by the writer him/herself .

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      The statements are being misinterpreted I feel.

      It’s not about what you feel, it’s about the info, scans, calcs, statement and facts and You don’t exactly have a solid argument against the writer because he hasn’t contradicted his work or his books thus far so he’s definitely reliable and if you have a question, you can go ask al Ewing yourself ZaStando27 And Cvc All-Ender had no problem and al Ewing is extremely active with those interested in his work and will respond (similar to Ian Flynn in account) 

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    • Here: https://mobile.twitter.com/Al_Ewing

      ask him yourself if you want to confirm something or show something is being misinterpreted.

      do you think I’m pulling this out of my rear? Then get validity to it.

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    • We need a lot of solid confirmation before we allow a tier 0 profile to be created.

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    • "

      I think, yeah, it only works if TOBA is TOAA's direct opposite, or the other side of the coin. TOBA does seem more willing to get involved with things.

      Is TOBA as powerful as TOAA? One for the theologians, maybe. Interesting chart!"

      Them being direct opposites has nothing to do with power rather than them being opposting deities, its like scaling neron or the first of the fallen to the presence, and he really leaves the part of them being equal in power up to interpretation.

      "Direct influence by TOBA is a pretty grave threat, certainly - when TOAA applies direct influence, (as it's done once or twice) it's a very special occasion, so the reverse would be true. But these are both forces acting on the Marvel Universe at all times."

      Proves nothing, just that both forces only act when needed. Literally nothing dictating power here.

      ​​​​​​​Literally nothing at ALL talks about them being equal in power rather than being opposites in correlation to a satan/god situation.

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    • ^ Hykuu..... you have nice input but it clearly has flaws.



      1. That was never my premise but it was one of the things speculated by many fans and even one of the highest mods/admin here so Al Ewing confirming that gives us comfortable footing to stand on who or what is the one below all, and that’s a faulty analogy as there’s different circumstances to note, TOBA is questioned as God’s Hulk, and is the reverse of TOAA. As confirmed. 

      2. Proves everything actually, I could list at least 3 Interpretations off that statement and 2 of them relates to TOBA’s power, the direct influence of the two in context is equal without a doubt, one of two events is special so the reverse would be true as well, how is that *not* giving an emphasis in the hierarchy between the two beings? I really need to know because it points to more than what you’re claiming and it ain’t “oh it only implicates that they act when needed” it’s more than that, when they act it’s equally as powerful as the other. 

      It’s both. I’ll get one of my bois to ask al Ewing when I get the chance to confirm it all. 

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    • 1. If it isn't your premise then it's irrelevant, you are going off faulty equivolances here, as there isn't anyway you can objectively quantify anything you are saying to legitimate power rather than them being simply opposites, it makes 0 sense, also the circumstances make even more sense for them as they have direct statements in comparison to God, not even limited to nature, but they still don't scale.

      2. Follows the first point, you can't objectively quantify it to power because he literally never mentions power rather nature, I think you are missing my point- In literally all his statements he references their actions and when they do them and shit. But he doesn't actually say "yuh they are comparable", rather emphasizing their god/satan relationship

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    • Oh? You want to jump off the roof like that?



      1. No I’m not, the context is there to prove it, that’s not my premise so why in tarnation do you keep bringing it up, all I have shown is that when TOBA affects something it’s as special As TOAA meaning he’s on that scale, you have no proof to prove otherwise, your  argument is they aren’t, prove it, you have shown nothing but a falsehood Of Interpretation Of statements. 

      You’re the only one bringing up the satan/god relationship....

      2. No it doesn’t, he mentions influence and how “grave it is” when he influences something it’s just like TOAA and the statement clearly points to that notion. He heavily implicates that when TOBA affects something it’s like TOAA in nature so that points to a potential powerscale that you are denying and have no other quote from Ewing to Debunk it, you’re just giving your own thoughts and forcing your premise onto that something that is not related to the context. If their actions are as big as one another than that’s enough to scale the two. 

      Again you’re the only one bringing the god/satan relationship..... 

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    • Anyway Tyler is gonna consult Ewing with the 1 million dollar question. It should take about a few hours to a day Or so. 



      My 2 cents is that with what’s shown with al Ewing’s statements currently, TOBA should be considered for a profile and a reasonable scale based on what’s currently here. 



      At worst 2-C at best probably where TOAA is.

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    • No At Best Tier 0. This is utterly ridiculous and would be showing extreme favouritism to this character.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      No At Best Tier 0. This is utterly ridiculous and would be showing extreme favouritism to this character.

      I think it has the stools to be accepted. And again; where TOAA is.

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    • TOAA has actual feats and context. TOBA only has some author statements on twitter which aren't acceptable and vague claims that are contradicted by feats. Such as an Amped Immortal Hulk killing it.

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    • ^ he didn’t one shot no one claimed or said that, but he did old him back which is still impressive none the less.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      TOAA has actual feats and context. TOBA only has some author statements on twitter which aren't acceptable and vague claims that are contradicted by feats. Such as an Amped Immortal Hulk killing it.

      First, hulk is TOBA’s child and both of them are drawn from the same tree (green door) and second hulk never killed it Lmao he simply “brought you guys some minutes” all he did was hold TOBA back not kill it, anew feat for a new hulk but he never defeated TOBA just held him back, false information on your part. 

      Anyways Tyler got an answer from Al Ewing about if TOBA is truly on TOAA’s Lvl and said he’ll probably touch on that in the comics as he doesn’t prefer to give a direct answer on Twitter. So we can wait until then or use what we got now. Whatever the case I know TOBA is gonna step in Tier 1 or 0 eventually.

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    • I agree with Hykuu and Matthew. We know too little about the character to properly rate it yet.

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    • ""
      1. No I’m not, the context is there to prove it, that’s not my premise so why in tarnation do you keep bringing it up, all I have shown is that when TOBA affects something it’s as special As TOAA meaning he’s on that scale, you have no proof to prove otherwise, your  argument is they aren’t, prove it, you have shown nothing but a falsehood Of Interpretation Of statements. "

      Dude, if it isn't your premise then you don't have a premise which actually proves they are comparable, this isn't how you power scale, you don't go off vague WoG statements which are literally secondary evidence by themselves. You need direct statements in the comic  of them being comparable in POWER. Again, you are misconstructing his statement, he only said that both take action at very specific and special times. Not that something is as special as TOAA (whatever that even means.), Otherwise I am expecting a scan of him doing something in ultimates. lol

      "2. No it doesn’t, he mentions influence and how “grave it is” when he influences something it’s just like TOAA and the statement clearly points to that notion. He heavily implicates that when TOBA affects something it’s like TOAA in nature so that points to a potential powerscale that you are denying and have no other quote from Ewing to Debunk it, you’re just giving your own thoughts and forcing your premise onto that something that is not related to the context. If their actions are as big as one another than that’s enough to scale the two. "

      The statement: "Direct influence by TOBA is a pretty grave threat, certainly " You can't quantify this statement when he didn't even specify a threat to what within his WoG, lol. He doesn't say whenever he effects something its like TOAA in nature, what? He literally says "it's a very special occasion, so the reverse would be true. But these are both forces acting on the Marvel Universe at all times". He only says TOBA acts on special occasions, and the term special has nothing to do with TOAA himself. If we look at the statement, I can also use the fact that TOAA took action against the first firmament. Yet we know that literally means nothing. He stopped spiderman from quitting being a hero. TOAA level spiderman special ocCaasSIOn=?!?!?!??! You get the idea, its just they act when needed, what they act upon varies extremely but he doesn't say anything about them being directly comparable in power. I don't need poor evidence to attack your poor evidence, using WoG like this means nothing, specially if you are misconstructing the statement.

      "Is TOBA as powerful as TOAA? One for the theologians, maybe. Interesting chart!" Al Ewing himself literally says its up to interpretation regarding if they are equal or not. Idk why you are still using his WoG statements like this and just making them seem like something they're not.

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    • It isn’t vague, it’s solid enough to scale the two. Dude Hol’ up “when TOAA applies direct influence, (as it's done once or twice) it's a very special occasion, so the reverse would be true. But these are both forces acting on the Marvel Universe at all times.” ^^^^^^^^^^€^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is as special as TOAA.

      Not seeing your point, the quotes you show don’t Debunk the case here. And Stopping Peter from quitting his job is a special occasion but in context we see here it has nothing to do with power, but to explain to a hero in mental crisis that he needs to get up and do what he has to do, and that all his decisions is up to him. In TOBA’s Case when Ewing said “When TOBA applies direct influence it’s a pretty grave threat” then goes to talk how powerful it is when TOAA applies direct influence, and says the reverse would be true. I’m pretty sure TOBA Isn’t needed, he acted upon the opening of the green door by banner and hulk plus possessed Brian, Sasquatch and Corrupted Creel, then Got a hold of banner and TOBA took form and got held back by hulk as he evacuated everyone who didn’t die already and stitched the green door before TOBA could unleash it’s wrath and that’s pretty much it.

      Update: so Al Ewing said he’ll talk about TOBA And The Question Of His Footings With TOAA in the comic pages.

      So? Maybe? We’ll definitely either see this in Immortal Hulk Or The Ultimates

      Extra question, what is WoG? And another thing is I’m not making things seem like they’re not it’s pretty much in context.

      I am gonna agree to disagree.

      And Antvasima is right, I’ll probably just wait until TOBA pops up a few more times in Immortal Hulk Or gets a scale in the Ultimates.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I agree with Hykuu and Matthew. We know too little about the character to properly rate it yet.

      Yeah I guess you’re right. But I want to see what wokistans point of view is about this before you close the thread.

      I’ll give you the indicator on your wall or in the post.

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    • "And Antvasima is right, I’ll probably just wait until TOBA pops up a few more times in Immortal Hulk Or gets a scale in the Ultimates."

      ok

      don't quote huge walls of text btw

      WoG is Word of God, I.e Author statement.

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    • ^ Oh

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    • So should I close this thread?

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    • We could still make it At least 2-C for being superior to Mephisto and put a note in its profile that it's supposed to be an equivalent to TOAA, but we have too little information within the work to rate it as such.

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    • Being a counterpart or dark sub-personality is not the same as being an equal though.

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    • I’d say for now, to appeal to both sides, we should create the profile but have him listed as “Unknown”, have the knowledgeable people develop the profile’s powers and abilities to which have been shown and then, have the information we have seen be placed into the AP section, I imagine the other stats besides Durability will be able to be accounted for by the knowledgable people.

      Additionally, we should add a note, stating that while there is some implication that he is equal to TOAA, either in power or as a Duality of sorts, we are unable to accurately know the full extent of TOBA’s power and if TOBA has equal Power to the TOAA

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    • No, the character has been kept too vague to be featured here as of yet.

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    • I mean, we’ve had character profiles that only have implications such as the Majestic Presence or The Wife of Nyarlathotep.

      I don’t see why we could make a Unknown profile for now, saves making on later, and while the knowledgable people are all here, they can all work on it.

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    • Several wrongs do not make a right. We should still preferably wait until we know more about the character than very vague interpretations.

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    • They do make a double standard tho

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    • It is impossible to maintain absolute consistency for over 20,000 profiles. That doesn't change that we have not been presented with all of the information yet.

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    • Strikethrough joke ant. Strikethrough joke.

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Should we close this thread?

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    • You know what? Ant just close the thread.

      I think I’ve had enough.

      Personally I See TOBA currently as something that’s going to have to be displayed more, and wokistan isn’t in the mood to comment.

      I’m satisfied enough. At least we have clues about TOBA. But I’m a little bit concerned about WoG.

      He has confirmed that his relationship with TOAA will be discussed in the Comics

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