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  • The skeleton vs the fusion.

    speed equalized

    Who wins?

    Malachite Lenhi
    Undertale sans speedpaint by maricaripan-d9kfai2

    Sans

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    • sans do too karm retbushin

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    • but the equalized is hard but unequalized sans wins

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    • Karmic Retribution is soul damage right? Do Gems have a soul?

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Karmis retribution is soul damage right? Do Gems have a soul?

      i dont see why not and we dont know how karma retribution works just that it bypass drubitey

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    • I'm not sure. Main reason I made this match. But if I had to make an educated guess, then no. They don't.

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    • I'm just going to get rid of the Unequalized match real quick.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      I'm just going to get rid of the Unequalized match real quick.


      why?

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    • Because it's a stomp match in hindsight. And seeing how I put the speedstomp rule into place, I would be a hypocrite.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Because it's a stomp match in hindsight. And seeing how I put the speedstomp rule into place, I would be a hypocrite.

      Yes. Now the real question is can she dodge the Gaster Basters with speed equalized?

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    • With speed equal probably, and Blue Mode would be completely ineffective against her

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      With speed equal probably, and Blue Mode would be completely ineffective against her

      Why? It is telekinesis.

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    • It's gravity manipulation. An ability often thought to be telekinesis.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      It's gravity manipulation. An ability often thought to be telekinesis.


      how would you even know that?

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    • Because it's under his profile, plus someone says it in-game (though I don't remember who).

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Because it's under his profile, plus someone says it in-game (though I don't remember who).


      No one does as far as I know and it does not make sense in context to his boss battle when he is doing it too you nonstop.

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    • "When blue, the SOUL is in Jump Mode and affected by gravity, much like a side-scrolling/platformer perspective. This SOUL color is used by both Papyrus and Sans in battle and is the first time the protagonist's SOUL changes color. Sans appears to have much more control over this, being able to force gravity in all four directions rather than just straight down."

      It's gravity manipulation, which would not affect a Gem like Malachite

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      "When blue, the SOUL is in Jump Mode and affected by gravity, much like a side-scrolling/platformer perspective. This SOUL color is used by both Papyrus and Sans in battle and is the first time the protagonist's SOUL changes color. Sans appears to have much more control over this, being able to force gravity in all four directions rather than just straight down."

      It's gravity manipulation, which would not affect a Gem like Malachite

      where is that said in game? why would it not work on a gem?

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    • Its not said in game, its just the description given. It wouldn't work on a Gem because their bodies automaitcally adjust to changes in gravity

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    • But still ,all Sans needs to win are Gaster Basters and Karmic Retribution.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Its not said in game, its just the description given. It wouldn't work on a Gem because their bodies automaitcally adjust to changes in gravity

      if it is not in game then someone made it up

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Its not said in game, its just the description given. It wouldn't work on a Gem because their bodies automaitcally adjust to changes in gravity

      Bnd just because there bodies adjust to gravity chang does not mean Blue Mode would not work Sans would still be able to throw her around.

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    • Blue Mode is not gravity manipulation. It is soul manipulation which acts like gravity manipulation.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote: Blue Mode is not gravity manipulation. It is soul manipulation which acts like gravity manipulation.

      I always thought it was gravity manipulation that affects you down to the soullular level (it sounds like cellular level. I'll... leave now...)

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    • Souls in Undertale are not just spiritual components, they encompass everything you are. Your physical state as well as any energy states or whatever else makes you up are part of your SOUL. It's not the same as the soul that is more commonly referred to in most places.

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    • Gems are inorganic life forms, and in Undertale, souls are posessed by only organic life, Specifically, monsters and humans. Any life form or machine without a soul would need one manually given to them or taken from others, like Mettaton or Flowey. Given that Gems are inorganic, and basically just rocks with special powers, I would say that Gems don't possess a soul in either real-world terms or Undertale terms. I could be wrong, just my thoughts on the topic.

      So, with Sans' abilities that affect the soul only and not the physical body such as Karmic Retribution and Blue Mode would not have any effect on Malachite. Based on this, I say Malachite wins.

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    • Literally, Gems don't have an exploitable soul like the others and any non-higher dimensional gravity or if the gravity is not of an overwhelmingly great level cannot affect the Gems. That's not hyperbole. Even if they do have a soul, it wouldn't be the same type that Sans is familiar with and able to affect whatever he likes.

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    • Dekoshu wrote:
      Literally, Gems don't have an exploitable soul like the others and any non-higher dimensional gravity or if the gravity is not of an overwhelmingly great level cannot affect the Gems. That's not hyperbole. Even if they do have a soul, it wouldn't be the same type that Sans is familiar with and able to affect whatever he likes.

      Verse equalization.

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    • Thesworddancer wrote:

      Dekoshu wrote:
      Literally, Gems don't have an exploitable soul like the others and any non-higher dimensional gravity or if the gravity is not of an overwhelmingly great level cannot affect the Gems. That's not hyperbole. Even if they do have a soul, it wouldn't be the same type that Sans is familiar with and able to affect whatever he likes.

      Verse equalization.

      Wouldn't make a difference

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    • Verse equalization.

      Wouldn't make a difference

      First off, I'm going to need some proof somewhere if you want to claim that a character doesn't have a soul, let alone a SOUL.

      Second, we've already established that sans blue mode is soul manipulation, not gravity manipulation, so any point about resistance to gravity is moot. Even if ti was gravity manipulation, I don't see anything on malachite's profile about resistance to gravity.

      Third if Malachite has a soul (judging from their page they may even have two souls) then that soul is subject to sans SOUL manipulation by means of verse equalization. That means that not only does bkue mode work on them, but san's attacks including KR all work as well.

      Lastly, in undertale all attacks deal damage to the enemies SOUL, and it has been shown that even characters like Flower who claim to not have a SOUL are capable of taking damage and being killed by these attacks. Even if a character lacks a a spiritual 'soul', the SOUL in undertale encompasses all physical and mental aspects of a character as well, so you would still take physical and mental damage from being hit by a SOUL based attack from an undertale character even if you managed to a find an 'I don't have a soul' loophole. Undertale characters have fought and damaged entirely digital characters for example in other vs threads many times, you can't claim complete invulnerability on the basis of 'muh lack of a soul', especially if said lack of a soul isn't written anywhere on the profile.

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    • Gems are literally rocks given physical form, so unless you believe that a rock somehow possesses a soul...

      "Even if it was gravity manipulation, I don't see anything on malachite's profile about resistance to gravity."

      Taken right from her abilities section: Automatic-adjustment to different strengths of gravity

      That's not how verse equalization works. You cannot use verse equalization to give something that lacks a soul a soul to make it susceptible to soul manipulation. And even if it DID, KR would have little to no effect since Malachite hasn't actually killed anyone.

      "The SOUL in undertale encompasses all physical and mental aspects of a character as well"

      That’s how regular souls are in quite a few fictions, its not exclusive to Undertale, plus it’s never stated it encompasses mental aspects.

      "Undertale characters have fought and damaged entirely digital characters for example in other vs threads many times"

      That’s… not remotely good evidence since it isn’t a canon work.

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    • snip

      The decisions on this wiki should be consistent. If a decision is made once that characters have SOULS unless specifically spec ified not to, then that decision should apply to all related fights on the wiki. It shouldn't be a case by case argument where whoever is more persistant and smooth talking on a given thread gets to determine how the rules apply in a similar but slightly different case. If for example it's decided that Beerus can absorb Supermans eye beams in one thread that is approved by admins and added to profiles, there shouldn't need to be another arguement in another thread about if Beerus can absorb the eye lasers of some other kryptonian like Supergirl or something.

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    • Doesn't change the fact that Malachite doesn't have a soul...

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Doesn't change the fact that Malachite doesn't have a soul...

      Where exactly does your insistance that Malachite doesn't have a soul come from, aside from 'something something come on guys its a rock'. Is there an author statement, or some canon event, dialog, or description that reliably tells us this? Or is this some sort of religious argument?

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    • Gems are canonically regarded as inorganic, and as far as im aware all religious beliefs only attribute souls to organic lifeforms, so we can assume that they do not have a soul. It's best to keep that religion bit away from this kind of stuff, since it has no hold on this debate. Either way, gems don't have souls because they are inorganic.

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    • Tkal378 wrote:
      Gems are canonically regarded as inorganic, and as far as im aware all religious beliefs only attribute souls to organic lifeforms, so we can assume that they do not have a soul. It's best to keep that religion bit away from this kind of stuff, since it has no hold on this debate. Either way, gems don't have souls because they are inorganic.

      I'm just not down with the 'inorganic doesn't have a soul' thing. Mettaton is a robot animated by magic, but has it's own personality and soul.

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    • Mettaton himself was given his own soul and personality, and is animated by literal magic.

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    • mettaton's inorganic body was given a soul, he didn't originate with a soul. The robot body was given a soul after it was created, which combined made the personality that is mettaton. 

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    • Mettaron is actually the soul of a ghost (Napstablook's cousin) put into the robotic body.

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    • Well ok, I guess Mettaton has special circumstances.

      Whatever, if you want to play up the 'gems have no soul' angle then fine, but that makes this a mismatch then. You can't put a character who only uses soul magic and who can only attack the soul against something that has no soul, there's no point.

      That's like putting goddess Madoka against something and saying 'but that other character is not a witch'.

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    • Sans' attacks can affect the physical body, but his main way to do damage and resrict enemy movement is soul based (Karmic Retribution, ignoring durability and Blue mode). It does still put sans at a massive disadvantage to where it's almost unfair. Sans can still teleport though, which might help him survive for longer. Overall it looks like this goes to Malachite.

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    • Let me clarify something.

      The SOUL in Undertale is defined as "the very culmination of your being". It seems that anything that is alive and sentient has a SOUL, and while they can be drastically different (for instance, human SOULs and monster SOULs), they are still considered SOULs. 

      Then, you have someone like Flowey, who has no SOUL considering he is not a naturally sentient creature, but a flower (which otherwise lacks any form of sentience or idea of self) infused with Determination.

      Sans was still perfectly able to kill Flowey multiple times after Flowey started going on killing rampages. Flowey obviously gains exp as he kills, which makes him grow stronger, and going by his dialogue, would obviously need to make him strong enough to kill everyone else in the Underground. Sans was still perfectly able to end him enough times to cause him great amounts of frustration, and unless you want to assume Sans did this strictly by pinging an at least Large City/Mountain level enemy with Wall level attacks or that he had some kind of anti-Flowey gun, I'm pretty sure he doesn't require his opponent to have a SOUL to affect them.

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    • So Karmic Retribution would become useless due to Malachite's lack of a soul, and her Gem physiology would render Blue Mode useless. My vote goes to Malachite

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      So Karmic Retribution would become useless due to Malachite's lack of a soul, and her Gem physiology would render Blue Mode useless. My vote goes to Malachite

      Blue mode isn't gravity, its soul manipulation. If we go with the idea that malachite doesn't have a SOUL (which I'm still not sold on) then that alone may be the relevant factor to prevent blue mode from working. The 'adapts to gravity' thing is irrelevant.

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    • Vote goes to sans.  The fact that he has killed flowey an unknown number of times means his tricks likely work on soulless beings.

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    • Malachite

      She cant be affected by gravity changes, and even if she poofs, Sans has to deal with 2 powerful gems at the same time 

      Sans can't teleport of of a giant ocean flooding the underground either 

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    • Jinx666 wrote:
      Malachite

      She cant be affected by gravity changes, and even if she poofs, Sans has to deal with 2 powerful gems at the same time 

      Sans can't teleport of of a giant ocean flooding the underground either 

      Blue mode is soul manipulation, not gravity manipulation. Also, the location isn't specified. Malachite woudn't be able to get past the barrier and into the underground anyway, so the fight shouldn't really take place there.

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    • Still, Sans has gravity hax that we nullified, that's at least what it says, but it doesn't need to take place in the underground, they flood anywhere and even so, Gems don't have souls, they aren't organic

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    • Jinx666 wrote:
      Still, Sans has gravity hax that we nullified, that's at least what it says, but it doesn't need to take place in the underground, they flood anywhere and even so, Gems don't have souls, they aren't organic

      Nope. Sans doesn't have any gravity hax. He has SOUL manipulation in the form of blue mode that looks similar to gravity but isn't actually gravity. It is in no way effected by any 'resistance to gravity' that a character might have.

      Gems are organic and dont have souls is a tired argument that has no bearing on this. We are talking about SOULS not souls, they are not the same words so stop comparing them. Even if they were the same, Sans has defeated Flowey many times who is stated to lack a 'SOUL' so his abilities must work on him. Chara and Frisk also have both killed Flowey before on screen using their SOUL damaging attacks, even though he has 'no SOUL'.

      I wish people would stop bringing the soul thing up, its not even like it was stated anywhere that 'gems don't have souls so are immune to soul magic' in any relevant canon of either universe, it's just something people keep spamming thats irrelevant it best and flat incorrect at worst. 

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    • K I guess

      By your logic, this can't effect anyone outside of Undertale due to them not having this SOUL, but we can't use that via game mechanics, proof of flowers lack of soul 

      Well, gems aren't technically organic or alive, they're just projections from their gem stone, which js what can hold up the argument, but yeah, we probs going to need more 

      Going with Malachite still though, Sans has been subdued by Flowey so he's not invincible, while Malachite has water :p

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    • Sans via KR.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Sans via KR.


      KR wouldn't do anything, Malachite hasn't killed anyone

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Sans via KR.

      KR wouldn't do anything, Malachite hasn't killed anyone

      Would a load of Watermelon Steven's count 

      -RIP all the brave melons-

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    • Karmic Retribution is based on LV. LV is based on ability to uncaringly hurt others/kill them.

      According to the global rules of this wiki, all living beings have a soul unless stated otherwise.

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    • Rocks are inorganic and thus dont have souls

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Rocks are inorganic and thus dont have souls

      Going in a circle and repeating things doesn't convince anyone who didn't go with that logic the first time.

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    • In Undertale, the SOULs are the very essence of one's being, whether they are humans or not, by that logic, the Gems do have SOULs, and, if I recall correctly, it was never stated that the Gems are soulless.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      In Undertale, the SOULs are the very essence of one's being, whether they are humans or not, by that logic, the Gems do have SOULs, and, if I recall correctly, it was never stated that the Gems are soulless.


      Sans due to this.

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    • Rocks do not contain souls, as they do not have any concious to speak of. Which is required to have a soul. 

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    • Austrian-Man-Meat wrote:
      Rocks do not contain souls, as they do not have any concious to speak of. Which is required to have a soul. 

      By that logic malachite isn't a sentient being that is capable of fighting. Like a rock. So they shouldn't be in any battles.

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    • Malachite is sentient, but she still lacks a soul. She's literally a rock with an artificial body. Does a robot have a soul? No. Can they still fight? Yes.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Malachite is sentient, but she still lacks a soul. She's literally a rock with an artificial body. Does a robot have a soul? No. Can they still fight? Yes.

      A robot without a soul is just a tool like a hammer. Tools shouldn't be allowed in battles. That's like saying that an animated sword should be allowed to be in battles.

      That's ignoring that battles have been set before inside digital worlds like megaman and digimon and those characters were determined to have souls for the purposes of soul magic through verse equalization.

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    • Robots don't have souls. A robot is an object.

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    • Hm...My vote is for Sans, not for KR, that's null and void against Malachite, no soul as of yet. but still, it's for the fact that every monster can bypass durability via the base attack system they all have, they attack the "soul". The representation of the mind, body, and spirit. I say, even without KR, Sans would still win by spamming gaster blasters.

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    • do you understand why KR is null and void @Peng?

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    • What does they being rocks has to do with their SOULs, by that logic, Sans wouldn't have a SOUL, he is an skeleton, Vulkin is a vulcan, so, he also doesn't have a SOUL, Tsunderplane is a freaking plane, so, no SOUL for her too.

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    • @Paulo I think you may be surpised to learn this... but.... outside of UT, rock beings can exist without souls.

      EDIT: Wait not even Flowey has a soul. Huh.

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    • Why the fuck is Malachite having a soul still being debated? It doesn't matter, in this fight. Sans hurt Flowey with his powers. Flowey has no soul. People can get back to the actual fight, now.

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    • I still say Malachite wins

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    • It was said anywhere in the cartoon that Gems doesn't have souls?

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    • Why does it need to be stated that a rock doesnt have a soul?

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    • Because they're not regular rocks, they're living beings.

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    • Ok, fine, you know what, lets say that Malachite does have a soul. She would still bet Sans because:

      1. Gem physiology counters Blue Mode by adjusting to counter changes in gravity

      2. Malachite hasn't killed anyone, so the Gasterblasters, Bone attacks, and Karmic Retribution in general will do absolutely nothing

      3. Malachite's stamina is limitless, whereas Sans' is limited, so she can easily outlast him

      4. Malachite can survive in space whereas Sans cannot, so she can just fly there and continuously bombard him with the ocean until he goes down and he cant chase after her with his teleportation

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    • Do you know what the concept of the Undertale "SOUL" is? An Undertale "SOUL" is everything you're made of, mind, spirit and body, it allows Monsters to bypass durability with their attacks.

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    • That is your soul
      Flowey explaining what a soul is.
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    • Im not gonna argue about Malachite's lack of a soul anymore, but she still wins.

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    • I've already been down this path, there's no point in arguing about the souls anymore.

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    • Battlemania
      Battlemania removed this reply because:
      03:06, June 15, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • However if we are conceding the soul point I will point out once again that the blue mode is not gravity manipulation, its soul manipulation, so the blue mode would still work against someone who was completely immune to gravity since it has nothing to do with gravity.

      Also, even if you have 0 damage from KR, sans attacks do 1 damage anyway even to multiversal chara even before counting the KR. Thats 1/92 of a multiversal durability character. That's probably why Sans was able to defeat flowey even though flowey has no SOUL, there is significant physical damage along with the spiritual damage.

      So if you concede the soul point, Malachite is both able to be restrained by blue mode and capable of being killed by Sans attacks.

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    • A Sword Dancer wrote:
      However if we are conceding the soul point I will point out once again that the blue mode is not gravity manipulation, its soul manipulation, so the blue mode would still work against someone who was completely immune to gravity since it has nothing to do with gravity.

      Also, even if you have 0 damage from KR, sans attacks do 1 damage anyway even to multiversal chara even before counting the KR. Thats 1/92 of a multiversal durability character. That's probably why Sans was able to defeat flowey even though flowey has no SOUL, there is significant physical damage along with the spiritual damage.

      So if you concede the soul point, Malachite is both able to be restrained by blue mode and capable of being killed by Sans attacks.

      Pretty true, except one part. Flowey has a soul. Actually Asriel's SOUL was implemented to a golden flower by Alphys. Because of that, I don't think flowers(at least golden flowers) have a soul inside them unless it is added from outside. And let's not forget flowers are living beings. Because of that, I think the SOUL rule can be stretched.

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    • Flowey is imprinted with asriels memories and personality, but was stated by himself and by Alphys to not have a SOUL many times. This is actually a plot point, as the reason Asriel did so many evil and cruel things as Flowey is due to him being a sociopath who was unable to feel anything or empathise with others - because he didn't have a SOUL. When he absorbed the souls of the other monsters in the underground, his compassion came back and he was able to be talked down from fighting by Frisk. Absorbing the human souls only gave raw power because they weren't as directly compatible I guess.

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    • "I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination.""

      .

      "ASGORE asked everyone outside the city for monsters that had "fallen down." Their bodies came in today. They're still comatose... And soon, they'll all turn into dust. But what happens if I inject "determination" into them? If their SOULS persist after they perish, then... Freedom might be closer than we all thought."

      .

      "I've chosen a candidate. I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it... In the center of his garden, there's something special. The first golden flower, that grew before all the others. The flower from the outside world. It appeared just before the queen left. I wonder... What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?"

      .

      "I don't know what to do. I'll just keep injecting everything with "determination." I want this to work."

      .

      "The flower's gone."

      .

      Alphys implanted determination on Flowey, not a SOUL.

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    • Malachite stomps

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    • Huge necro

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    • this thread should be close

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    • A FANDOM user
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