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  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    Toxic, Derailed, and possibly a stomp in either direction plus heavy stats were called into question
    00:00, July 7, 2019

    Lucario (Pokémon 7) vs Gogeta (Dragon Ball Super)

    Both 2-C

    Localization: Giratina's Dimension

    Speed Equalized

    Fighter Doggo:

    Women's Fanservice: 2 (CryoTheMayo, UltimateFlare)

    Thunder McQueen (Inconclusive):

    SSJB Gogeta
    600px-448Lucario













    Note: I know the thread review of Gogeta's doubts being "possibly 2-C as Super Saiyan Blue" is going on, but while the new thread review is done only by personal, we can discuss this match or not, you decide guys.

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    • I thought Haruhi Suzumiya was the weakest 2-C.

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    • Lucario scaling to a Darkrai completely unrelated to PMD or Movie Darkrai is pure BS but I’ll ignore that for now.

      Assuming they are both baseline, Gogeta almost certainly takes this due to flight, Danmaku, paralysis, internal detonation, superior senses, BFR, barriers and so on. Gogeta has everything Lucario has but better.

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    • Senses aren’t superior when Lucario’s senses are so good that it doubles as mind reading.

      Internal detonation doesn’t work unless the opponent is weaker.

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    • That's more of psychic ability. I am referring to Gogeta's senses being at least nearly as large as the universe itself in range (Considering RoF Goku could sense Gohan from Beerus' planet, when Earth is at the edge of the universe).

      Can Lucario suppress its presence? If not, Gogeta is capable of sensing Lucario regardless of its position or attempts at stealth.

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    • Lucario because Gogeta is wanked.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Lucario because Gogeta is wanked.

      Please do not start, I want to keep this thread as civilized as possible.

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    • Bump

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote: That's more of psychic ability. I am referring to Gogeta's senses being at least nearly as large as the universe itself in range (Considering RoF Goku could sense Gohan from Beerus' planet, when Earth is at the edge of the universe).

      Can Lucario suppress its presence? If not, Gogeta is capable of sensing Lucario regardless of its position or attempts at stealth.

      I’m almost certain Goku was blindsided a few times in the ToP.

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    • Aren’t those ki suppression feats?

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    • You guys do know ENIAC takes the title of weakest 2-C 

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: Aren’t those ki suppression feats?

      I’m not talking about the U3 fighters. He was jumped by that dude who could increase his weight all the way at the beginning of the tournament.

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    • The sumo guy? It’s been a while.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      DragonEmperor23 wrote: Aren’t those ki suppression feats?

      I’m not talking about the U3 fighters. He was jumped by that dude who could increase his weight all the way at the beginning of the tournament.

      Tupper yeah I remember that but honestly Goku was constantly blindsided in the ToP. However being that Gogeta is the product of both Goku and Vegeta, one can assume Vegeta's serious straightforward nature would cancel out Goku's constant problem of letting his guard down. 

      Besides I think it's easier for Goku or anyone of that matter to focus on one opponent in a 1v1 since it's not like Lucario is gonna blindside him through a distraction of some sort which is how Goku was mainly caught off guard throughout the entire series. 

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    • Worth noting that Goku was constantly improving after he went Ultra Instinct Omen for the first time. IIRC it was outright stated by Whis that Goku was rapidly learning as he fought SS2 Caulifa, despite being at a power and stamina disadvantage.

      So Goku may not fall for the same trick by Tupper, now that he has improved greatly as a fighter. This would also correlate with Gogeta's own potential skill.

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    • Dude, Goku’s been alive fifty years. If you’re saying getting ambushed by Tupper is something he’s just now learning to adapt to then he’s not a good martial artist lol.

      Also, while not important to the match, Kefla having a power advantage over UIO2 Goku is a misconception. While (If Roshi is to be believed) Goku could get one-shot by a single one of those beams, it’s explicitly stated that she’s letting out every inch of her power in this one final attack. In other words, she can only one-shot Goku while using the DB equivalent of Final Gambit.

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      You guys do know ENIAC takes the title of weakest 2-C 

      Clickbait, mi boi

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Lucario because Gogeta is wanked.

      Classic from you.

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    • Gogeta FRA

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    • Wait hold up when did Gogeta become 2-C? lol

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    • So what’s protecting Gogeta from Toxic? He dealt with poison before but he had to figure out it was poison. If that lands, Lucario just needs to wait out Gogeta.

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    • AogiriKira

      I really like that name.

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    • uwu

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      So what’s protecting Gogeta from Toxic? He dealt with poison before but he had to figure out it was poison. If that lands, Lucario just needs to wait out Gogeta.

      This Here 

      the way you keep questioning Goku in this thread it seems you don't know DB.

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    • He does, he’s just skeptical.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      He does, he’s just skeptical.

      I knew he was skeptic.... from recent threads.

      But the way he questions without reasearch someone could interpret it differently.

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    • Gogeta FRA

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Dude, Goku’s been alive fifty years. If you’re saying getting ambushed by Tupper is something he’s just now learning to adapt to then he’s not a good martial artist lol.

      Okay? What's your point? This doesn't contradict anything I said.

      And after taking a look, your point regarding Tupper has no basis. Goku wasn't 'jumped'. He was fighting the Pride Troopers and Tupper somehow grabbed him, with no context provided for how Tupper grabbed him in the fight. Literally, Goku, Caulifa and Kale were confronted by the Pride Troopers, it fades to Roshi and then later it returns to a bunch of clashes ending in Goku being grabbed by Tupper. So Goku was only grabbed when he was busy fighting other Pride Troopers.

      To add further, Goku would have only been grabbed if Tupper were suppressing his energy, which Goku can most likely sense in his base form (due to Tupper being able to hold Goku in place, albeit increasing his weight to do so). Unless Lucario has a way to suppress the presence of his life force, he isn't going to get the jump on Goku via sneak attacks.

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    • Because if Goku hasn’t adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?

      Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that, but even then, why give someone an ability they’ve never shown? Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability rather the vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down, which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back.

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    • Gogeta fra

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    • "Because if Goku hasn’t adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?"

      In what other scenario has Goku gotten jumped like that before? When has he gotten jumped from behind to allow him to adapt in his 4 straight years of Martial Arts?

      Most major scenarios was 1v1 against the Big Bad and the only time he got caught off guard in RoF was when he practically already won and Freeza straight up couldn't do anything to him anymore.

      Your argument hinges on Goku not adapting to something after years of experience despite that something never coming up prior.

      "Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that, but even then, why give someone an ability they’ve never shown? "

      Lucario has never demonstrated the ability to hide and conceal his own Aura presence so no, it cannot do that. Even if it has the capacity to do, it wouldn't know to do so.

      "Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability rather the vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down, which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back."

      Wow it's like you ignored all context in the RoF arc! The point was Goku let his guard down because he already won. The problem was that he assumed victory too early in that scenario. In practically no other scenario has Goku let his guard down infront of an enemy to the point he gets mortally wounded.

      Plus what the hell? Cal. Dude. Ki Concealment and Presence Hiding as well as Ki Detection are all basic abilities any adept Ki User should be able to do once they get past at least Raditz-level power. Everybody in the ToP are the top-fighters and arguable best in their respective universes with Tupper being a member of the Elite Pride Troopers who work directly under a God of Destruction. Why in the world wouldn't they know the bare basics of Ki Abilities?

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    • Cuchuflí.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Because if Goku hasn’t adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?

      Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that, but even then, why give someone an ability they’ve never shown? Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability rather the vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down, which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back.

      Because if Goku hasn’t adapted to getting jumped after fourth straight years of martial arts, what makes you think the self-improvement of 45 minutes of fighting is going to change that?

      Because Master Roshi, the person who trained Goku and is considered such a great martial artist that even Beerus respects him, believes Goku was using Ultra Instinct to keep up with Caulifa and Kale. Krillin, Tien, Beerus and no one else could believe Goku's ridiculous improvements as a martial artist with Whis outright stating Goku was sharpening his skills as he fought, similar to how he could improve in Ultra Instinct. Goku's leap in performance is so vast, so great, from when he fought Tupper that even Beerus was astounded and seemed to consider Goku using Ultra Instinct to be plausible.

      Also, Goku went from 3-A to Low 2-C in those '45 minutes of fighting' so I honestly have no idea why you think Goku can't do the same in-regards to pure skill. It's quite clear his limits as a martial artist were also broken by using Ultra instinct.

      Well for one, yes, Lucario has complete control over its own Aura so it can do that

      Can you show us some feats to indicate Lucario can hide its life force?

      why give someone an ability they’ve never shown? Why just assume Tupper just has a certain ability

      It's extremely doubtful that he lack the ability to suppress his energy. He is a veteran warrior of the pride troopers, one of the absolute strongest in the entire multiverse and one of the 10 best fighters of Universe 11. Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo all displayed energy suppression abilities, IIRC and even Frieza, someone who has never trained before, could suppress his energy levels down to 1% of his power. The only people who lacked ki suppression would be Frieza's soldiers who had never received training in Ki Control like those that know Ki suppression.

      Overall, it's a basic assumption to believe Tupper has access to suppressing his power when he is one of the 10 best warriors of his universe, when it's an extremely basic skill and when other members of his team have displayed the ability to control their energy output. It is a clearly established ability that anyone with half-decent training can utilise.

      vastly more likely chance of Goku letting his guard down

      Not a chance. Tupper states Goku let his guard down. 

      which btw, is a thing that nearly got him killed a few arcs back.

      Against a defeated Frieza, yes. He didn't anticipate a secondary person (who, mind you, is an ant to him) to shoot him in the chest. The only times Goku has ever let his guard down is when he doesn't anticipate other people to sneak attack him. If he is in a 1v1 fight, his defenses won't be penetrated.

      Thisis Goku against Hit, an assassin from Universe 6 and the greatest warrior of universe 6. In a one-on-one match with no interlopers, Goku can handle Hit's invisible attacks, battle against his dimensional phasing and ultimately tie with him. So it's less that 'Goku lets his guard down' and more of 'Goku has blind spots when focusing on fighting a single person'.

      Tupper only got the drop on Goku due to Goku already fighting the Pride Troopers, evident by the numerous pillars of dust exploding from clashes at the location Goku was grabbed and the fact that Tupper grabbed Goku from behind. Overall, your claims have no value when Goku is fighting a singular person.

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    • Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.

      ...Uhhh...

      Gogeta FRA.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      So what’s protecting Gogeta from Toxic? He dealt with poison before but he had to figure out it was poison. If that lands, Lucario just needs to wait out Gogeta.

      Wait when did Movie 7 Lucario use Toxic? Are we able to assume moves for very specific Pokemon? I only recall that Lucario knowing Aura Sphere and Detect.

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    • This isn’t Movie 7 Lucario, this is Pokemon 7 Lucario.

      You’re thinking of this Lucario

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.

      Context means everything. I cited Goku dodging and handling all of Hit's invisible attacks when fully focusing on fighting his opponent. Goku's issue is that he focuses too much on his opponent, opening holes in his defense that someone he isn't focusing on can exploit.

      If Lucario could, for example, create clones or set up traps that Goku is unaware of, Goku would very likely be hit by said attacks due to focusing on Lucario, thus creating gaps in his defense. In a 1v1 match, Goku performs at his best.

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    • Cal... are you seriously saying that you purposefully ignore context behind feats and events as well as reasons for those events even occuring in the first place?

      What? Might as well not debate in that case

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      This isn’t Movie 7 Lucario, this is Pokemon 7 Lucario.

      You’re thinking of this Lucario

      OH MY BAD

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    • I vote Gogeta FRA

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    • Context would matter if we weren’t talking about a universal ability. The Hit fight took him the utmost concentration to sense them. That’s what neither of you are understanding. You’re both saying Goku can sense anything in the entire gigantic universe in Dragon Ball, anything at all, and yet taking on less than ten people or someone being well beneath him significantly is enough to throw it off whack.

      But again, not that it matters since my argument doesn’t hinge on that.

      Now for an actual debate, what’s stopping Lucario from timing out Gogeta when aura sensing let’s him see every move before Gogeta makes it, or hitting Gogeta with Toxic which is enough to take him out incredibly shortly. The vote everyone's FRA’ing is just listing powers without elaboration, which is frowned upon. Flight? Sure, that’s good, but Saiyan pride and time limit isn’t going to let Gogeta abuse that as he’s not one to recuperate in the air or anything. Danmaku? Also an advantage but Goku not Vegeta just spam beams unless sufficiently enraged like Vegeta was against Frieza. Paralysis procts the double power of Facade. As if Gogeta would ever use BFR. Internal detonation doesn’t work on people on your level. Gogeta’s barriers aren’t like 17s that protect you from damage but they stop poison. Which would actually help here if Gogeta knew it was poison Lucario is emitting.

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    • https://youtu.be/9SypIwRLg_Q?t=159

      First instance of Danmaku in combat


      https://youtu.be/9SypIwRLg_Q?t=321

      Second instance of Danmaku

      I don't think Gogeta was ever enraged throughout this entire fight.

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    • AKM sama
      AKM sama removed this reply because:
      06:55, July 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • AKM sama
      AKM sama removed this reply because:
      06:55, July 6, 2019
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    • AKM sama
      AKM sama removed this reply because:
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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Goku can sense anything in the entire gigantic universe in Dragon Ball, anything at all,

      No, I'm not. All I said was that Gogeta's sensory range would be vastly superior to Lucario, due to having universal range. Range does not equate to sensitivity, which can be blotted out by suppressing your energy beneath a person's senses. Gohan, for example, had to power up to Super Saiyan to even be sensed by Goku on the other end of the universe. Albeit, if Lucario can't suppress its power Goku should be able to sense it regardless of location.

      Both instances of Goku being sneak attacked was one, being sneak attacked by someone vastly weaker than him that he was unaware of, and two, being grabbed when he was in the middle of fighting other people. Neither of which are applicable to this context.

      what’s stopping Lucario from timing out Gogeta when aura sensing let’s him see every move before Gogeta makes it,

      Provide context for Lucario (Pokemon 7) to be capable of it. And don't cite Sir Aaron's Lucario, that Lucario was actively trained by an Aura Guardian to use Aura sensing to that extent.

      Gogeta with Toxic which is enough to take him out incredibly shortly.

      ...Somebody already cited Goku using a barrier aura across his entire body to nullify poisons. It's unlikely to work if Gogeta can react.

      Flight? Sure, that’s good, but Saiyan pride and time limit isn’t going to let Gogeta abuse that

      Gogeta hasn't displayed any issues with killing his opponents or using advantages, and I'm not sure why you think he would. It's sure as hell isn't in-character for Goku or Vegeta to actively neglect using abilities because 'it wouldn't be fair'. Provide some reasoning why you think Gogeta wouldn't aerial bomb Lucario to death.

      Danmaku? Also an advantage but Goku not Vegeta just spam beams unless sufficiently enraged like Vegeta was against Frieza.

      Gogeta was spamming Danmaku against Broly and isn't Goku OR Vegeta. You seem to misunderstand the fact that fusion creates an entirely new being by using Goku and Vegeta as components.

      Paralysis procts the double power of Facade

      Cool, can Lucario use it while completely frozen in place?

      As if Gogeta would ever use BFR

      Characters are in-character but willing to kill. Gogeta will use instant transmission if he is forced to.

      Internal detonation doesn’t work on people on your level.

      .I'll concede on that for now, due to verse equalization rules (although I question if Lucario would have the energy capacity to resist Gogeta's huge Ki. Last I checked, Pokemon aren't fueled by how much Aura they have so...meh)

      Gogeta’s barriers aren’t like 17s that protect you from damage but they stop poison.

      ...No. Did you watch the Broly movie? Gogeta used barriers on reaction multiple times against Broly's ki blasts.

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    • Question. Do Standard Battle Assumptions forbid the use of the Kaio-Ken technique? Gogeta's profile lists it as one of his abilities, so I'm questioning if he can use it.

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    • He can potentially use it but we don't know what kind of affect it will have on the fusion or his body at that level of power. He probably won't even use it out of the blue without testing it out first.

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    • It's in his arsenal so it is possible for him to use it. You will probably argue and not get any agreements on if it would be in character for him to use it, considering Cal is saying he won't even do the things that Gogeta has literally done on screen(in reference to Danmaku).

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    • He should be able to use Evolution too.

      KK normaly is a x2 boost which I don't think it would do much of a strain on Blue Gogeta's fusion. 

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    • AKM sama wrote: He can potentially use it but we don't know what kind of affect it will have on the fusion or his body at that level of power. He probably won't even use it out of the blue without testing it out first.

      Flashback to every instance of "it can't effect him", "he effects this thing" I've ever witnessed

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    • So if Gogeta gets hit with a Toxic he may be inclined to go X2 or higher to try and finish the fight instantly, rather than draw it out.

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    • 100% sure there's weaker 2-Cs out there.

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    • GyroNutz wrote:
      100% sure there's weaker 2-Cs out there.

      Clickbait

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    • Cause it's not like Dragonball will get you clicks

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    • >Provide context for Lucario (Pokemon 7) to be capable of it. And don't cite Sir Aaron's Lucario, that Lucario was actively trained by an Aura Guardian to use Aura sensing to that extent.

      Uh, what? Jumping in for a second, when was it ever stated that Sir Aaron trained Lucario to use Aura Sensing to that extent? That is nothing but headcanon. Sir Aaron simply just trained Lucario to use its Aura better than it naturally already can.

      Aura sensing is something thats naturally given to every Lucario period, as proven here- https://jb2448.info/picture.php?/4653/category/919.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote: >Provide context for Lucario (Pokemon 7) to be capable of it. And don't cite Sir Aaron's Lucario, that Lucario was actively trained by an Aura Guardian to use Aura sensing to that extent.

      Uh, what? Jumping in for a second, when was it ever stated that Sir Aaron trained Lucario to use Aura Sensing to that extent? That is nothing but headcanon. Sir Aaron simply just trained Lucario to use its Aura better than it naturally already can.

      Aura sensing is something thats naturally given to every Lucario period, as proven here- https://jb2448.info/picture.php?/4653/category/919.

      Sir Aaron showed and taught Lucario to use its aura to dodge log traps. I’d have to go check and see the specifics but I’m relatively certain that Lucario was unable to do the same feat without his training. I would also note that Riley is one of the few people capable of using aura, so it’s possible that he taught his Lucario similarly.

      Also, isn’t that from Adventures? Would it have any bearing on Pokemon 7? After all, I don’t think Adventures has much weight to the games or even the anime regarding canonicity. Maybe Pokemon 7 has the same author?

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    • Gogeta FRA. Even a baseline Dragon Ball character can win matches, cool.

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    • Again, counter aura sensing. How can Gogeta even hit Lucario when every Lucario can read the thoughts and movements of an opponent before they make it, alongside precog? Counter Toxic. How’s Gogeta going to last even a minute under the effects of toxic poison, which gets exponentially worse every turn. Counter Water Pulse. What’s Gogeta going to do when confused? Lucario doesn’t have to worry about Gogeta dodging because he knows where Gogeta will move before Gogeta does it. An extended fight doesn’t benefits Gogeta for many reasons. Unlike against Broly, Lucario will be able to take Gogeta’s attacks due to being on his level. Gogeta will only last so long in Blue. As we see in Gotenks, SSJ boosters severely limit the time one can spend fused. Kaio Ken or Evolution if he dares to try it is going to make that even worse.

      I’ll admit being wrong for Danmaku though. I also hate that’s what we use for that ability...

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Not a single bit of my argument hinged on Lucario using stealthy tactics to win because that's not in character, but saying Goku will never let something sneak up on him is fallacious as heck. I don't care what the context was with Tupper or the RoF dude, it happened. If the Saiyan has universal sensing under his belt, being busy or someone being an ant to him when he already won should've been child's play.

      Do you not know what PIS is? Also, Goku has sensed normal humans before, he could easily sense Lucario.

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    • My. Argument. Doesn’t. Hinge. On. Goku. Sensing. Lucario. I don’t care if Goku has so good sensing that he can see Lucario’s organs. I never contested that he couldn’t sense Lucario. What I did contest that had nothing to do with the match is Goku having universal sensing and being incapable of being blindsided.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote:

      Snip

      Goku didn’t nullify poisons already in his body. He put up a barrier to prevent hem from affecting him in the first place. If he gets hit by poison inducement and his barriers aren’t up, he’s getting poisoned.

      Show me a single time Goku or Vegeta have ever aerial bombed someone to death. And the “new being” argument is only in non-canon material. Fusion Reborn and GT.

      Broly was able to break out of paralysis, and he didn’t have an insane power advantage over Goku yet. A 2x boosted move is more than enough to break out of paralysis.

      BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they’d clearly use it right away.

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    • "Characters are in-character but willing to kill. Gogeta will use instant transmission if he is forced to." -Cryo


      "BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they’d clearly use it right away."-Cal's response

      ???

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    • If he believes it would be a factor in the fight, he believes that Gogeta would use it despite BFR’ing once to stop a planet bust.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      counter aura sensing. How can Gogeta even hit Lucario when every Lucario can read the thoughts and movements of an opponent before they make it, alongside precog?

      1. The scan that Kukui provided has Riley explain that sensing doesn't mean a damned thing to Lucario if their opponent can move faster or if they have no way to counter the opponent. Lucario has no real method of dealing with Danmaku + Flight and Gogeta, if pushed into a corner, can use the Kaio-Ken to blitz Lucario. Gogeta can also get the drop on Lucario with Instant Transmission at least once.

      2. Sir Aaron's Lucario had to undergo specialised training under Sir Aaron, a powerful and wise Aura Guardian, to be capable of dodging logs attached to rope. Provide evidence that Lucario (Pokemon 7) has undergone the same training or has the same sensitivity with Aura.

      3. Can you provide some feats regarding Lucario's precognition? Hard to tell what exactly it can do without an idea of how advanced its precognition is.

      Counter Toxic. How’s Gogeta going to last even a minute under the effects of toxic poison, which gets exponentially worse every turn.

      1. Poison barrier. Gogeta can react to Lucario's attacks and has the combined experience of Goku and Vegeta. It's not farfetched to imagine him using a barrier when seeing Lucario trying to touch him with an unknown technique. Protect, a barrier move in Pokemon, can nullify moves like Toxic so even Gogeta's basic reactionary barriers could block Lucario's Toxic.

      2. If Gogeta starts to grow weaker due to poison, he will simply use the Kaio-Ken to finish the battle or use his aura to overwhelm Lucario (See Goku vs Hit 2: Electric Boogloo and Vegeta nuking the Time Chamber). Gohan has also displayed the ability to fight, and defeat, a poison user while poisoned, so Gogeta could likely do the same due to Gohan being an inexperienced and unskilled fighter (see Krillin stomping Gohan with tournament rulings).

      3. Does Poison get worse per turn in the games? I honestly don't remember it working that way mechanically. 

      Counter Water Pulse. What’s Gogeta going to do when confused?

      1. That has a small chance of occurring (20%)

      2. Gogeta can just explode his power.

      Lucario doesn’t have to worry about Gogeta dodging because he knows where Gogeta will move before Gogeta does it.

      See what I already said regarding Lucario's reactions at the top of my post.

      An extended fight doesn’t benefits Gogeta for many reasons. Unlike against Broly, Lucario will be able to take Gogeta’s attacks due to being on his level.

      As far as we know, Gogeta has 30 minutes to fight with (Vegito Blue only defused due to Final Kamehameha. We have no indication that Blue drains the timer notably, infact Blue is noted for having excellent Ki Control for use with Kaio-Ken, so it likely doesn't hurt the timer like a terribly unstable form like Super Saiyan 3). If Gogeta is pressured due to his timer, he may just use Kaio-Ken or Instant Transmission to try and win in one move.

       Kaio Ken or Evolution if he dares to try it is going to make that even worse.

      Not really. Vegeta can use Evolution after nearly dying and being completely wasted from Final Explosion, it's clearly an easy form to maintain which means it won't influence the timer much. Kaio-Ken is up to debate.

      Fusion timer is lessened by the energy of the user being wasted such as Super Saiyan 3 being insanely draining or Vegito defusing due to using Final Kamehameha. It has no relation to the timer. If you believed such things it would bring into question why Vegito and Gotenks can even use Super Saiyan when fused.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: If he believes it would be a factor in the fight, he believes that Gogeta would use it despite BFR’ing once to stop a planet bust.

      But you're saying that the character would use it right away which is the opposite of what Cryo is saying.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Goku didn’t nullify poisons already in his body. He put up a barrier to prevent hem from affecting him in the first place. If he gets hit by poison inducement and his barriers aren’t up, he’s getting poisoned.

      Cool. Gogeta can still negate Toxic from even happening in the first place, if he just uses a barrier to deflect a special attack with unknown effects/abilities.

      Show me a single time Goku or Vegeta have ever aerial bombed someone to death. And the “new being” argument is only in non-canon material. Fusion Reborn and GT.

      This isnt Goku OR Vegeta, this is Gogeta! It's over, Cal! I've come for you! 

      Gogeta canonically uses aerial bombing in-character. The only reason Broly survived is due to:

      • Adapting to Gogeta's power
      • Using barriers
      • Flight

      Which Lucario has none of.

      Broly was able to break out of paralysis, and he didn’t have an insane power advantage over Goku yet. A 2x boosted move is more than enough to break out of paralysis.

      Cool. Lucario doesn't have Ki, has no training In Ki and Broly is a freakish super mutant that learned God Bind after seeing it once. They aren't even remotely equivalent in skill-level.

      BFR. Cool. Then take out every DB win where the opponent has hax, because they’d clearly use it right away.

      Not relevant. Take it up with those threads if BFR wasn't noted and argued. I've even argued Gogeta would use it when pressured into finishing the fight quickly, not that he would use it instantly.

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    • Where could Gogeta take him with instant transmission that Lucario can't just get back from within a day?

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    • Aura. Read a Pokédex entry. If you were getting on my case on seeing the Broly movie (I only saw it on bootleg give me a break ovo), the least you can do is do me the same courtesy and read Lucario’s Pokédex entries. Heck, the scan of Riley explaining shows a Pokédex entry from the games.

      Toxic. Only Bad Poison (poison brought about by Toxic, Poison Fang, or a Toxic Orb) does. Why would Gogeta just assume a random technique is poison based? Between combating Lucario, he shouldn’t have that level of caution about random spores. Sure barriers can block it but it’s not like Lucario is incapable of figuring out when Gogeta will barrier or not due to aura sense. I’ll get to Kaio Ken later but aura explosion has zero bearing here. Something tells me you’re going to go into anti-hax with that bit and I’m not going to put up with that.

      Water Pulse. That activating is way more likely than Gogeta ever BFR’ing yet you still find that to be a factor. And how would Gogeta exploding his power even help?

      Extended fight. One, we do not have confirmation that the Final Kamehameha caused defusion. Blue is a muuuuuuuuch more powerful form than SSJ3 and we have confirmation that the more power means quicker timeout. Saying otherwise is completely against the source material. This goes double for Evolution and Kaio Ken. Vegeta doesn’t have to worry about defusing after using SSJBE, Gogeta does. And accelerating the timer doesn’t mean the timer is automatically up.

      Gogeta can’t oneshot when using KK. I’m not entertaining that.

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    • >Sir Aaron showed and taught Lucario to use its aura to dodge log traps. I’d have to go check and see the specifics but I’m relatively certain that Lucario was unable to do the same feat without his training.

      This, again, was never clarified in the movie. All Sir Aaron was to Lucario was someone who taught Lucario on how to use its Aura abilities better. It wasnt explicitly said that Lucario needed Sir Aaron. They were nothing but training partners.

      >I would also note that Riley is one of the few people capable of using aura, so it’s possible that he taught his Lucario similarly.

      This is also never clarified and is even more of a bigger assumption. Nothing suggests Riley taught Lucario how to use its aura sensing capabilities. Especially because of how he blatantly says "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" instead of something akin to saying "I taught Lucario how to catch aura". Not to mention Diamond's Pokedex outright showing the entry that says Lucario has that ability (and pokedex entries apply to average mon unless your a god tier).

      >Also, isn’t that from Adventures? Would it have any bearing on Pokemon 7? After all, I don’t think Adventures has much weight to the games or even the anime regarding canonicity. Maybe Pokemon 7 has the same author?

      It would since Pokemon is a multiverse where all of the canons have bearing on each other as being parallel universes. That and neither of these lucario use special abilities that are beyond what any Lucario can have, especially Riley's.

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    • >Lucario has no training in ki

      >Ki is the life energy of every living being

      >Aura is the life energy of every living being

      >Lucario, the Aura Pokemon

      Hmm...

      >Broly has more skill than Lucario

      >Species starts training upon coming out of the egg (like almost every Pokémon) and is as skilled as a Pokémon that has mastered every martial art and this individual Lucario is above the average species.

      If you said Gogeta, sure, but Broly? Bull.

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    • ...Hmm. It's hard to say, actually. We don't actually know if there is life in the universe (probably but no true confirmation) so I can't claim Gogeta would just teleport Lucario to some alien world then dip.

      I suppose I could, however, claim that Gogeta could hypothetically warp Lucario to the Antarctic or even a volcano. Lucario shouldn't be able to leave the Antarctic easily and if Gogeta warps to a volcano and just tosses Lucario in, he will die quickly. Although one could argue that nothing stops Gogeta from just blowing Lucario into the core of a planet at any time. I don't recall if Goku went to the Earth's core via IT or not as well.

      I suppose if speed is equalized, Lucario could just run on the ocean itself...But, yeah. I would guess a volcano would work.

      There also isn't much argument that Gogeta couldn't just fling Lucario into outer space, if he can grab it. I don't think pokemon have the ability to breath in space, outside of legendaries like Rayquaza and Deoxys.

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    • >I suppose I could, however, claim that Gogeta could hypothetically warp Lucario to the Antarctic or even a volcano. Lucario shouldn't be able to leave the Antarctic easily and if Gogeta warps to a volcano and just tosses Lucario in, he will die quickly. Although one could argue that nothing stops Gogeta from just blowing Lucario into the core of a planet at any time. I don't recall if Goku went to the Earth's core via IT or not as well.

      All of this is, like, majorly worthless against a 2-C...

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    • Lol

      Another universe buster that can't breathe in space.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Aura. Read a Pokédex entry. If you were getting on my case on seeing the Broly movie (I only saw it on bootleg give me a break ovo), the least you can do is do me the same courtesy and read Lucario’s Pokédex entries. Heck, the scan of Riley explaining shows a Pokédex entry from the games.

      Cal. Don't be insulting. I have played Pokemon games since I was a young child. I'm arguing against Lucario having the Ki Control or capacity to deal with Gogeta's God Bind due to Aura having, seemingly, different methods of training based on more of sensory training rather than power or control.

      Why would Gogeta just assume a random technique is poison based? Between combating Lucario, he shouldn’t have that level of caution about random spores. Sure barriers can block it but it’s not like Lucario is incapable of figuring out when Gogeta will barrier or not due to aura sense. I’ll get to Kaio Ken later but aura explosion has zero bearing here. Something tells me you’re going to go into anti-hax with that bit and I’m not going to put up with that.

      I didn't say he would. I said he, as a master martial artist with decades of experience, would likely consider blocking an unknown attack with an unknown ability against Lucario. Gogeta is a very free but focused fighter that doesn't give his opponent any breathing room, his entire fighting style seems to be based on counters and immense pressure (via Danmaku, constant attacks and his barriers reflecting projectiles).

      I would really appreciate it if you stopped assuming my opnions or understanding of this. Implying I would use a specific argument, that Ki is Anti-Hax, is incredibly insulting. Dragon Ball characters suffer to deal with hax in their own universe with just Ki, so why would I argue they would do well with hax against other verses?

      Water Pulse. That activating is way more likely than Gogeta ever BFR’ing yet you still find that to be a factor. And how would Gogeta exploding his power even help?

      Water Pulse actually requires to hit Gogeta and has a 1/5th chance of proccing. It's not going to happen very often, and it's questionable if Gogeta will be hit by it more than once or twice.

      Goku tied with Hit by exploding his Ki and could rip spacetime itself. If Gogeta explodes his Ki, it's as powerful as any of his other attacks and can be used for continual lengths of time (see Vegeta's Final Explosion lasting at least several seconds).

      Also, Gogeta can use Final Explosion at any moment, considering Vegeta can survive it...Albeit, it would waste the timer quickly but it's an option.

      Extended fight. One, we do not have confirmation that the Final Kamehameha caused defusion.

      Goku and Vegeta couldn't even turn Blue after defusing. It was very clearly the result of energy loss. But say I go along with your claim. Gogeta can maintain Blue for at least several minutes with continual spam (considering the passage of time, Bulma's reactions and Cheelai and Lemo getting the DBs and wishing for Shenron to save Broly).

      Blue is a muuuuuuuuch more powerful form than SSJ3 and we have confirmation that the more power means quicker timeout.

      Gotenks defuses in 5 minutes or less, to memory. Vegito Blue and Gogeta Blue both last as long, if not longer. Power has NEVER been the cause of defusing.

      This goes double for Evolution and Kaio Ken. Vegeta doesn’t have to worry about defusing after using SSJBE, Gogeta does. And accelerating the timer doesn’t mean the timer is automatically up.

      You don't have any evidence that Blue drains the timer to any notable extent and we know that Evolution is very easy for Vegeta to maintain and use. There is nothing contradicting the possibility.

      Gogeta can’t oneshot when using KK. I’m not entertaining that.

      Kaio-Ken X10 could, considering 7.5x AP is the standard for oneshot calculations. I didn't even say he would anyways, I just said Gogeta would finish it 'instantly' or 'quickly' with a massive power amp.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      This, again, was never clarified in the movie. All Sir Aaron was to Lucario was someone who taught Lucario on how to use its Aura abilities better. It wasnt explicitly said that Lucario needed Sir Aaron. They were nothing but training partners.

      I'm not bothering to check for myself if your statements are true. But I will state that Lucario clearly underwent specialised training in Aura alongside Sir Aaron, that much is undeniable.

      This is also never clarified and is even more of a bigger assumption. Nothing suggests Riley taught Lucario how to use its aura sensing capabilities. Especially because of how he blatantly says "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" instead of something akin to saying "I taught Lucario how to catch aura". Not to mention Diamond's Pokedex outright showing the entry that says Lucario has that ability (and pokedex entries apply to average mon unless your a god tier).

      Having the power and wielding the power are completely separate things. I also never stated that Riley DID teach Lucario. I said it was a POSSIBILITY due to Riley knowing Aura and being a trainer. It's not farfetched for an Aura-using trainer to train his Lucario to use aura better.

      It would since Pokemon is a multiverse where all of the canons have bearing on each other as being parallel universes. That and neither of these lucario use special abilities that are beyond what any Lucario can have, especially Riley's.

      That's a bogus claim considering there is nothing to indicate this manga is included in this multiverse, or that the author has any authority to elaborate on Aura but I'll concede due to it mainly extrapolating from a Dex entry.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Hmm...

      ...Did you make any claims or provide any evidence that this Lucario has TRAINING in Aura? It's pretty obvious that Lucarios can use Aura naturally. I'm asking if this Lucario has TRAINING in the use of Aura and if it has the control or skill to outdo a Paralysis technique from a Master Martial Artist with decades of experience (nearly a century combined experience) in Ki control, as well as training with the best masters in the entire universe (Roshi, King Kai and Whis),

      If you said Gogeta, sure, but Broly? Bull.

      No, not bull. Vegeta himself stated Broly was learning as he fought and Broly imitated God Bind within seconds of seeing it. Broly is a natural prodigy to the highest degree in regards to power AND skill. Also, 'every' martial art? This Lucario is listed as only having 'Martial Arts' on its profile. What statements indicate that its skill is to that degree?

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    • Aura and Ki would be the same thing in this battle due to SBA.

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    • Every single Lucario has training in Aura, bar none, wild or otherwise. It’s in the Pokédex.

      No, Broly learning a technique after seeing it once means absolutely nothing. What, is Buu now one of the greatest martial artists to ever walk the land? Lucario has comparable skill to Machamp, who mastered every martial art. Lucarios have shown to be among the most skilled Pokémon, to the point where Alakazams look up to its exploits.

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    • Which, I don't think, anyone has denied. My arguments stem from how their training and usage of their lifeforce differs greatly. Nothing seems to indicate Lucario has the capacity to surpass Gogeta's God Bind or the control to stop it. Hell, the argument is based on Facade doubling in power, which requires Lucario to:

      • Be capable of using Facade, thus mobile (Lucario can be prevented from using moves if paralysis procs)
      • For Facade to actually double his Aura. As far as I am aware, Aura does not enhance the physical abilities of a pokemon, it's just the embodiment of the pokemon's lifeforce. So we would have to argue the semantics of whether or not Lucario will gain twice the Aura power when using Facade.

      I would also like to note that a heavily exhausted Base Frieza could paralyse GoD Toppo for a few seconds. Call it an outlier or not, it's clear that paralysis is extremely hard to break out of in Dragon Ball.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      >I suppose I could, however, claim that Gogeta could hypothetically warp Lucario to the Antarctic or even a volcano. Lucario shouldn't be able to leave the Antarctic easily and if Gogeta warps to a volcano and just tosses Lucario in, he will die quickly. Although one could argue that nothing stops Gogeta from just blowing Lucario into the core of a planet at any time. I don't recall if Goku went to the Earth's core via IT or not as well.

      All of this is, like, majorly worthless against a 2-C...

      Lucario is actually only Massively Hypersonic+, which is still enough to just run on the ocean back to Gogeta. Speed has no relation to AP.

      Also, I'm pretty sure that being 2-C doesn't automatically enable you to survive being forced into an active volcano.

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    • Gogeta- 7

      Lucario - 1 ?

      Grace Started 2 hours ago. 22 hours to go!

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    • Lucario’s (to be more specific, Riolu’s) aura increases while under stress, but that’s not the point. All Lucario needs to do is overpower it. It doesn’t need to be an aura/ki thing. What, would it work on Arceus because it doesn’t use ki? Just having the raw power to bust out of it is more than enough. And why would this super Lucario have any less training than your average run-of-the-mill Lucario?

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    • Btw sorry if I’m being a duck. This is my normal tone when I’m in “heated” (for lack of a better term) debates.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Lucario has comparable skill to Machamp, who mastered every martial art.

      The pokemon planet is different enough from irl that you need to name every Martial Art because humanity developed differently.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Lucario’s (to be more specific, Riolu’s) aura increases while under stress, but that’s not the point. All Lucario needs to do is overpower it. It doesn’t need to be an aura/ki thing. What, would it work on Arceus because it doesn’t use ki? Just having the raw power to bust out of it is more than enough. And why would this super Lucario have any less training than your average run-of-the-mill Lucario?

      Again, Facade's 2x power only procs when it is actually used. Paralysis in the games can prevent pokemon from even using moves when it procs. I'm asking if Facade would double Lucario's Aura power, enabling it to break out of the bind, or if it has no relation to Aura (considering this is a Lifeforce vs Lifeforce fight).

      Lucarios only gain power the more damaged they are, right? Meaning Lucario gaining such a boost is dependent on when Gogeta decides to use God Bind. 

      I don't know if Arceus would be influenced by God Bind and unable to break out. It might be unable to if it lacks the Ki/Aura to overpower it.

      This 'super Lucario' isn't even a Super Lucario lmfao. All it did was KO an unconscious Darkrai (which has none of the PMD, Pokepark or Movie feats, its best feat or statement implies it has planetary range with hax) when amped by other people. Actually make the argument that it has the Aura training to deal with this technique, seriously.

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    • I mean, unlike Gogeta, at least there’s someone actually 2-C involved in the scaling.

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    • Ohohohoho! We both know that Darkrai (Pokemon 7) isn't 2-C. At least Gogeta's scaling involves actual statements, powerscaling, multipliers and places him far above many Low 2-Cs (who scale far above baseline). This Lucario defeated a weakened, unconscious, Darkrai (that scales to, at maximum, 5-B) with a super effective move while amped.

      If you are going to start throwing around claims like that, I suggest you don't do it in a thread debating a poorly scaled and justified 2-C, possibly 2-B Lucario. Especially when you deny Gogeta as merely Possibly 2-C for scaling far above Low 2-Cs and for scaling to stomping Low 2-Cs capable of 2-C feats when fighting their equals.

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    • Oh, my bad. A likely 2-B Lucario! How could I have been so foolish to think it was only possibly 2-B? My bad, truly.

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    • You started it, not me. I didn’t start talking about Gogeta’s tier before you started talking about Lucario’s. Say what you will about Lucario and Darkrai, at least Lucario actually hit him, which is more than you can say about Gogeta to Beerus + Champa.

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    • >Having the power and wielding the power are completely separate things. I also never stated that Riley DID teach Lucario. I said it was a POSSIBILITY due to Riley knowing Aura and being a trainer. It's not farfetched for an Aura-using trainer to train his Lucario to use aura better.

      And once again, there's nothing explicitly proving Lucario cannot wield an ability that is naturally given to it as part of the whole species. Dont make assumptions that arent implied to begin with. Occams Razor, Lucario knows how to wield it and arguing otherwise with 0 basis is just nitpicking through Lucarios capabilities.

      Saying Riley is a trainer, so he must have taught Lucario how to do x, is a huge leap in logic. Thats like saying Ash taught Pikachu how to use thunderbolt because Ash is Pikachu's trainer.

      >That's a bogus claim considering there is nothing to indicate this manga is included in this multiverse

      And there is nothing to indicate that it isnt included in the multiverse. A Multiverse where canons are explicitly treated as being a part of each other, having many cross-canon references, and having parallel universes where some are similar yet also vastly different in events. This manga has 0 reason to not be a part of this standard.

      Replying to this because I felt the need to regardless.

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    • Also, stop with this "Pokemon 7 Darkrai isnt 2-C"2-B. We had a huge thread on this a while ago and it was vastly explained on why this isnt the case.

      Darkrai's tier scales to all Darkrai's all around. 

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    • Speaking of Darkrai, when is the Tobias profile being made?

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      And once again, there's nothing explicitly proving Lucario cannot wield an ability that is naturally given to it as part of the whole species. Dont make assumptions that arent implied to begin with. 

      I'm not. All I have claimed is that Lucario has to actually undergo training to use the full potential of its aura, not that it can't use aura (Aren't Rilous born with or capable of learning Force Palm at a super low-level?). Riley's Lucario was trained by an Aura user and Aaron's Lucario was trained with an Aura Guardian. This Lucario was trained by someone with no experience or understanding of Aura, to my knowledge.

      Occams Razor, Lucario knows how to wield it and arguing otherwise with 0 basis is just nitpicking through Lucarios capabilities.

      No, not even remotely. I'm arguing that this Lucario doesn't have the same skill as Aaron's Lucario or Riley's Lucario due to not being trained by an Aura user or having no evidence of undergoing Aura training. Which is a very fair, reasonable, claim to make.

      Saying Riley is a trainer, so he must have taught Lucario how to do x, is a huge leap in logic. Thats like saying Ash taught Pikachu how to use thunderbolt because Ash is Pikachu's trainer.

      ...No. Ash can't CREATE ELECTRICITY. Riley can actually manifest, manipulate and understand Aura on a level that Non-Aura using Lucario trainers can't comprehend. I am claiming that Riley, as his Lucario's trainer, can train it more effectively with Aura than a Non-Aura user could. Which is another very fair, reasonable, claim for me to make.

      I've already chosen to concede on the multiversal stuff, due to it not contradicting or really adding to canon. It's only extrapolating so I'm fine with using that scan.

      Not going to argue with Cal if he's resorting to arguing over tiering. My argument regarding the 'super Lucario' claim is that there is no basis for it being 'super', thus making it unreasonable to believe it has special training. Even if we claimed that Lucario defeated a likely 2-B Darkrai, it still wouldn't be likely 2-B for defeating an unconscious, weakened, Darkrai while Lucario was being amped + a supereffective Aura Sphere.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      Also, stop with this "Pokemon 7 Darkrai isnt 2-C"2-B. We had a huge thread on this a while ago and it was vastly explained on why this isnt the case.

      Darkrai's tier scales to all Darkrai's all around. 

      Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to make a CRT (even if the rationale is utterly stupid. Every pokemon in Ash's party is obviously Likely 2-B amiright). However, the claim that it is a 'Super Lucario' when it could only hope to defeat Darkrai in such a vulnerable and weak state would, in my mind, bring into question its actual AP. Even if we say that it's just somehow 2-C (with no feats or scaling to justify it) I would still claim that there is nothing to show it has the skill or training to match that AP.

      Essentially speaking, claiming it has particular training or advantages is ridiculous without particular skill feats, statements or training to place it above Riley's Lucario or Aaron's Lucario in-terms of Aura. (Why aren't all Lucarios Likely 2-B anyways? Darkrai is only a Mythical pokemon so it's not like it's some super special legendary to justify claiming all members of its species is likely 2-B.)

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Lucario because Gogeta is wanked.

      I'm not really gonna have to point out the irony of this statement right? 

      Either way, i'd probably go for Gogeta FRA. 

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    • >I'm not. All I have claimed is that Lucario has to actually undergo training to use the full potential of its aura, not that it can't use aura (Aren't Rilou's born with or capable of learning Force Palm at a super low-level?). Riley's Lucario was trained by an Aura user and Aaron's Lucario was trained with an Aura Guardian. This Lucario was trained by someone with no experience or understanding of Aura, to my knowledge.

      And if Pokemon weren't capable of using any of their natural capabilities right after being born, I would be more inclined to agree with you. The fact that they can, and that Riolu being able to use Aura is a thing before it evolves into Lucario, would disagree much with this argument of yours.

      >No, not even remotely. I'm arguing that this Lucario doesn't have the same skill as Aaron's Lucario or Riley's Lucario due to not being trained by an Aura user or having no evidence of undergoing Aura training. Which is a very fair, reasonable, claim to make.

      See above. Lucario doesnt need to undergo training to use abilities its already naturally capable of, just as any pokemon doesnt need training to use their abilities when they can already do so right after being born. At best, your argument only means the Lucario trained by Sir Aaron simply learned how to use its Aura better than it already can. Im not addressing Riley since there's not one shred of evidence that Riley put his Lucario through Aura Training.

      So no, its not reasonable. Especially for the latter where no such kind of training is even remotely hinted to have happened.

      >...No. Ash can't CREATE ELECTRICITY. Riley can actually manifest, manipulate and understand Aura on a level that Non-Aura using Lucario trainers can't comprehend. I am claiming that Riley, as his Lucario's trainer, can train it more effectively with Aura than a Non-Aura user could. Which is another very fair, reasonable, claim for me to make.

      Even if we disregard my Ash example, this is still nothing but a pure assumption. It being possible and it being factual are 2 different things. There is no evidence that Riley put his Lucario through Aura training in the slightest just because he himself can use the same power. Not one mention or hint of this event happening in Adventures. The fact that he didnt even say anything such as "I trained Lucario" but instead flat out said "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" works in my favor instead of yours.

      >Even if we claimed that Lucario defeated a likely 2-B Darkrai, it still wouldn't be likely 2-B for defeating an unconscious, weakened, Darkrai while Lucario was being amped + a supereffective Aura Sphere.

      Just going to say, your making this out to be far more than it actually is. For one, "a supereffective Aura Sphere" doesnt matter much since type advantage becomes completely irrelevant to legendaries in general unless their opponents are on or above the same level of capability as they are. Two, Darkrai was not weakened, he was only unconscious. And three, Lucario was amped but the power of the feat was still mostly Lucario contributting to it.

      So yes this would be a Likely 2-B for even making Darkrai flinch, let alone knocking it over.

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    • >Darkrai is only a Mythical pokemon so it's not like it's some super special legendary to justify claiming all members of its species is likely 2-B.

      Because Darkrai is not exactly a vast species where there are tons of them running around. Only a few of them at the most and there's 0 reason to assume only one Darkrai is immensely or infinitely above the capabilities of another one of its kind. Again, something already well dealt with in the thread where this was put into question. A while ago.

      And if your not going to make a CRT about this, then drop it. Needlessly complaining about the ratings and not doing a thing about it in a thread where it would actually matter is not going to change anything and is ultimately pointless.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      >Even if we claimed that Lucario defeated a likely 2-B Darkrai, it still wouldn't be likely 2-B for defeating an unconscious, weakened, Darkrai while Lucario was being amped + a supereffective Aura Sphere.

      Just going to say, your making this out to be far more than it actually is. For one, "a supereffective Aura Sphere" doesnt matter much since type advantage becomes completely irrelevant to legendaries in general unless their opponents are on or above the same level of capability as they are. Two, Darkrai was not weakened, he was only unconscious. And three, Lucario was amped but the power of the feat was still mostly Lucario contributting to it.

      So yes this would be a Likely 2-B for even making Darkrai flinch, let alone knocking it over.

      And if Pokemon weren't capable of using any of their natural capabilities right after being born, I would be more inclined to agree with you. The fact that they can, and that Riolu being able to use Aura is a thing before it evolves into Lucario, would disagree much with this argument of yours.

      Again, not denying they can't. I'm stating they must be refined through actual training. Let's put it this way, okay? Riolu learns Force Palm at Level 15. Lucario learns Aura Sphere at Level 42, Heal Pulse at Level 51 and Dragon Pulse at Level 60. The Riolu/Lucario family clearly learns more advanced applications of Aura as they grow stronger via training. This would also apply to their passive abilities with aura, considering they have to learn how to shift Aura into different typings and effects over time.

      So no, its not reasonable. Especially for the latter where no such kind of training is even remotely hinted to have happened.

      I've already stated, constantly, that I'm not denying they have access to natural abilities. I am denying that they can use the full potential of their abilities without training. Hell, Lucario learns moves like Water Pulse, Dark Pulse and such by Tutors or TMs. Albeit, this Lucario DOES Know Water Pulse so it's clear it has underwent some form of Aura-based training. The extent of this training is unknown however. 

      It being possible and it being factual are 2 different things. There is no evidence that Riley put his Lucario through Aura training in the slightest just because he himself can use the same power. Not one mention or hint of this event happening in Adventures. The fact that he didnt even say anything such as "I trained Lucario" but instead flat out said "Lucario has the power to catch Aura" works in my favor instead of yours.

      I never claimed it was factual. I have consistently claimed it as possible. The inherent fact that Riley is the trainer of Lucario already raises the possibility of Riley augmenting Lucario's training with his own experiences and understanding of Aura. That statement also doesn't work in your 'favor' considering that was merely an objective statement that Lucarios have the power to use Aura, not that they do not require training to wield it.

      Aaron's Lucario had to undergo training to perform Aaron's log training, so I don't understand why you feel so compelled to imply that training isn't required. It's like you are denying the existence of trainers entirely.

      Just going to say, your making this out to be far more than it actually is. For one, "a supereffective Aura Sphere" doesnt matter much since type advantage becomes completely irrelevant to legendaries in general unless their opponents are on or above the same level of capability as they are. Two, Darkrai was not weakened, he was only unconscious. And three, Lucario was amped but the power of the feat was still mostly Lucario contributting to it.

      Actually, Aura Sphere would deal 2x damage to Darkrai. The Darkrai was unconscious (which WOULD make him weakened via actual rationale and not mere game mechanics) AND Lucario was amped. It's actually quite in my favor to claim that this Lucario being 2-C, or even 2-B, is completely baseless. It would actually be Low 2-C, Likely 2-C as I am quite certain that the 2-C key only makes Darkrai baseline. I am uncertain how PMD Darkrai scales from Palkia/Dialga, considering much of that was mere hax. How far does Dialga scale into 2-B?

      And if your not going to make a CRT about this, then drop it. Needlessly complaining about the ratings and not doing a thing about it in a thread where it would actually matter is not going to change anything and is ultimately pointless.

      No, I'm not going to drop it. I am debunking Cal's baseless claim that this is a 'super Lucario' that would have special training. I don't care about your ridiculous argumentation for a 2-B Lucario, based on a completely different canon against a Darkrai with absolutely zero 2-C or 2-B feats, who at most scales to planetary. You can live in your own world of wank all that you please. But I won't accept Cal using it to try and claim that this Lucario is even remotely impressive in regards to its training, skill or otherwise regarding Aura when there is nothing to indicate it has such talent.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      Because Darkrai is not exactly a vast species where there are tons of them running around. Only a few of them at the most and there's 0 reason to assume only one Darkrai is immensely or infinitely above the capabilities of another one of its kind. Again, something already well dealt with in the thread where this was put into question. A while ago.

      Oh, I see. So are Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Black, Bra, Pan and every other currently living saiyan a borderline 2-C? The Saiyans are a very rare species in Universe 7, and there are plenty of feats with Low 2-C Saiyans. Goten, Trunks, Bra and Pan are almost entirely featless in Super, so surely we can make them Low 2-C for being the very rare, mythical, saiyan race, yes?

      It wasn't 'dealt with'. I looked at that thread and the argumention regarding species was, honestly, pathetic. Please don't even remotely try to imply that this scaling is sensible. It's honestly one of the biggest jokes I've seen on this entire wiki.

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    • It is similar logic to how each stage of a pokemon is considered to have a general tiering.

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    • Chill out guys. Honestly

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    • Fair enough, Schnee. I'm just somewhat irritated over how the same people that questioned and vehemently opposed Gogeta being possibly 2-C, would advocate for a likely 2-B Lucario with such flimsy reasoning.

      This is derailing this thread, either way. I apologise for my lapse and overall insulting tone. 

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    • ^

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    • I mean either way this is not only either an AP stomp or a Hax stomp for Lucario but this thread kinda went south immediately, like most Pokémon and Dragon Ball matches

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    • SupersonicWarriorZ
      SupersonicWarriorZ removed this reply because:
      Unnecessary.
      23:51, July 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Schnee One
      Schnee One removed this reply because:
      Stop
      23:47, July 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Schnee One
      Schnee One removed this reply because:
      Stop
      23:46, July 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • DROP IT NOW

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    • SupersonicWarriorZ wrote: 2-B Lucario is wank and even more inconsistent than 2-C Gogeta tbh. Than again I shouldn't be surprised that someone who wanks his favorite verses and tries to make shitty reasons for why rivals verses are weak in comparison

      You've already been warned for comments like this before. Calm it down.

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    • So...Can we get back to the match up instead of going on and on about calling their tiers wank?

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    • Why was my first reply deleted?

      I understand the 2nd one (came off as kind of antagonistic, so my bad), but my 1st one was counter arguments against the Gogeta side of this match.

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    • Ignoring the fact that you went on about Wank in your first post so you did.

      This is a stomp either way, and we really shouldn't keep going with a thread this far derailed

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    • Fair enough. 

      I'll admit I got rather heated by Cyro's replies, so I apologize again for my antagonistic replies. 

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    • Schnee One wrote:

      This is a stomp either way, and we really shouldn't keep going with a thread this far derailed

      So, before you close this thread, let me ask you a question, why is this match a stomp anyway? I actually thought I got the 2-C Pokémon less haxxed from the site to be fair to put a fight against Gogeta.

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    • Yeah i'm wondering that too.

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    • Aside from Precog and Poisoning Gogeta, there's like 3 other reasons for closing it.

      Plus, either side says it's possibly a one shot so.

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