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  • Wokistan
    Wokistan closed this thread because:
    Derailed, hostile, and dragged out over 3 threads. Staff version coming tomorrow
    02:29, July 3, 2019

    Please change to "at least Universe level+ possibly low multiverse level"

    Even tho it true that Gogeta blue is just that much stronger then Broly.

    even so there nothing confirm that he reach Tier 2-C yet.

    Then again I'm fine with 2-C via sheer Power multiplier of DB verse at whole.

    ....just add "at least tier low 2-C" before it.

    And Don't forget to change tier of people scale to this too.

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    • Agreed

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    • This was discussed for a while in a different thread, so no, it stays like that as far as people agreed. If you want to know why, it's do to the fact that champa and beerus together can cause a 2-C feat. Gogeta being that much above broly, who is probably stronger than beerus. Thus gogeta is possibly 2-C, for having power possibly greater than beerus and champa put together.

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    • No. The difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite. It's 4-D vs 5-D. You cannot become 2-C just by powerscaling off Low 2-C's, unless you literally view them as fictional.

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    • What Wright said. It's the whole reason DBS is among the top, if not the top, AP wise in Low 2-C.

      The difference is infinite, so no matter how many multipliers they get, which are a lot, they are still Low 2-C. An infinite distance like that isn't covered by multiplying. or dividing. 

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    • No, it isn't infinite. This was debunked by admins in the massive 2-C revision for Dragon Ball. It's only unquantifiable. Based upon hundreds of posts and endless argument, we came to the conclusion that anyone who is 2x the power of Beerus would scale to 2-C, due to the combined power of Beerus and Champa resulting in 2-C destruction.

      Gogeta Blue easily stomped FPSS Broly, who is said to possibly surpass Beerus. It is implied in the novel, which is accepted as canon, that Gogeta was heavily holding back when he went Blue. So, overall, Gogeta Blue scales to possibly 2x Beerus. Thus making him possibly 2-C.

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    • Why not Goku and Jiren then? Jiren has more wank than Broly.

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    • Yeah why isn't ui goku or jien 2-C

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    • Look, i'll be completely frank with you, because I took part to the discussion that decided this nonsense.

      Gogeta is wanked due to the extreme fanboyism towards the character.

      The claim is "since Gogeta Blue stomped Broly, then he is at least above the combined power of Beerus and Champa" Obviously that's pure nonsense since we don't know how much stronger you should be to perform a stomp, but who cares, he's Gogeta, he's cool, he's Dragon Ball. Let's wank him!

      I suggest just stop trying changing people's mind here because there is an elitist community here that thinks to know all the answers and won't get a no as a reply, and if you even DARE to oppose, prepare to see people going nuts on you, lamenting that this has already been discussed and so nobody should talk about it, and bla bla bla. You'd waste your time.

      Use this site just for the calcs, the people that deal with the tiering are just close-minded due to the fact that they receive complaints everyday from god who knows how many fictional universes, because this wiki is just too popular.

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    • Isn't it generally considered that the gap to one-shot is around 7.5x or did that change? We just don't use that for scaling purposes or else we'd get ridiculously high stats via scaling.

      Sure, nothing proves he's above the combined power of Beerus and Champa, that's obvious bull, but casually stomping somenody above Beerus should be enough to be 2x stronger than him in my eyes.

      Even then, I don't entirely agree that just because the gap is unquantifiable and not infinite that we can just arbitrarily decide where that line is and that Dragon Ball bypasses it, but that's a thread for another day.

      I'm fine with a possibly for now.

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    • So, they beat someone who is probably stronger than Beerus (only probably), and this somehow means they're stronger than Beerus and Champa put together (while keeping in mind that their combined power is unquantifiably bigger than them on their own)... well, shit.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Why not Goku and Jiren then? Jiren has more wank than Broly.

      No and no.

      The only source for either of them scaling above Beerus is a single magazine scan claiming that UI Goku 'possibly' surpasses Beerus, placing Goku and Broly at the same level. The gap between Goku and Jiren is unlikely to be of that great of a magnitude, considering Goku could damage Jiren and his ki techniques could hold up to Jiren's, albeit only briefly.

      Broly has FAR more wank than Jiren. He has been constantly wanked IRL as being the absolute strongest in DBS. Frieza has wanked him as too powerful for anyone to defeat.

      Gogeta easily stomped Broly, who scales as 'possibly' above Beerus. It's not 'wank' like Rash has claimed multiple times. The scaling chain follows as:

      Grand Priest >> Angels > (Likely) Gogeta Blue > casual Gogeta Blue >> FPSS Broly = MUI Goku >/= Beerus

      If you want to argue that Jiren and Goku scale to being far above Beerus, it would be best to make a CRT for them specifically, as you would have to argue at length for why Goku and Jiren are logically above Beerus to that degree.

      I should note, however, that AKM and others have argued and made the GoDs all comparable in power (which I heavily disagree with but I digress) which means Jiren and Goku SHOULD be 2-C. Whis himself already stated Jiren may surpass GoD-level (just by seeing suppressed Jiren) and Belmod consistently claimed Jiren was unbeatable. LB Jiren and UI Goku SHOULD be conclusively 2-C for being far more powerful than Base Jiren and UIO3 Goku, due to Base Jiren already surpassing GoD-level.

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    • What is this nonsense? If you really think that Broly is comparable to Gogeta Blue then you are wanking Broly. Gogeta is stronger than blue Goku in base and going blue on top of that only means he's at least 25,000x blue Goku.

      There are many flaws on the opposite side. First off your assuming that full power Broly is 25,000x stronger than blue Goku which is extreme wank and your forgetting Broly can adapt. Gogeta didn't just stomp Broly, he widened the gap so far that Broly didn't even get a chance to adapt once.

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    • Isn't broly only "probably" stronger then Beerus?

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    • You don’t get from Low 2-C to 2-C via multipliers.

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    • Again, multiple staff members stated that the gap isn't infinite. It is only unquantifiable to upgrade a Low 2-C to 2-C without viable evidence. It was agreed upon that Beerus and Champa are not 2-C solo but their combined energy can destroy multiple universes. In other words, anyone with twice the energy (power) of Beerus would be 2-C.

      @Hizack123

      Goku outright states that Broly is 'probably' stronger than Beerus. Gogeta Blue stomped someone comparable to Beerus without much effort, meaning Gogeta is likely much stronger than that.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: What is this nonsense? If you really think that Broly is comparable to Gogeta Blue then you are wanking Broly. Gogeta is stronger than blue Goku in base and going blue on top of that only means he's at least 25,000x blue Goku.

      There are many flaws on the opposite side. First off your assuming that full power Broly is 25,000x stronger than blue Goku which is extreme wank and your forgetting Broly can adapt. Gogeta didn't just stomp Broly, he widened the gap so far that Broly didn't even get a chance to adapt once.

      It's ridiculous how broken Gogeta is when you factor transformations. I still think however that Broly is stronger than SSG Gogeta at least.

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    • @Cyro Wasn't that magazine talking about UIO and base Jiren? If they weee refereeing to UI then Goku and Jiren are around Broly's level atax.

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    • It was for episode 130 which only has UI. It was also translated by Ken Xyro who said it was UI not UIO.

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    • No. I believe KenXyro responded to that translation and stated that it was incorrect. He said that the scan was for Episode 130 and that, despite the text being next to an image of UIO Goku, it actually refers to silver, referencing the complete UI.

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    • Creo que la fusión es superior a la de Beerus, ya que se sabe que actualmente el goku es el más cercano al Dios Beerus que destruye ... en el poder,
      por lo que una fusión es obviamente una escalada en la cerveza, solo la fusión, no individualmente para confirmar Varios temas relacionados con la interfaz de usuario, poco a poco, aclaran varias cosas en el universo de DB que me gustan, algunas cosas se aclaran.

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    • Yeah I’m calling heavy bullshit on Gogeta being as strong as the combined power of two GoDs. Beerus’s power has been in so much flux since he debuted that we can have no value in Goku’s statement at all. Like literally 0%.

      Also given how DB universes are structured with the map, they’re not as high into Low 2-C as people are making them out to be. It’s not unquantifiable when the distance between the two has been shown to be much smaller than the universes itself. Frankly I don’t know what’s changed between when we didn’t acknowledge the feat and now.

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    • Honestly, the two combined being 2-C but on their own being Low 2-C makes really no sense, the gap between those two tiers is so huge that you literally cannot get a tier jump no matter how much you multiply or divide it.

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    • What I will give the pro-DB side is that the gap between the tiers is hyped up way too much and it should be possible to get there through intense scaling. Just that DB doesn’t have it.

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    • Oh yeah, I forgot, the way the Tiering System works changes without warning every twenty seconds.

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    • Funny enough the impossible gap was the thing that came out of nowhere. I recall the days where Saint Seiya, Pokemon, and Digimon breached Low 2-C with pure scaling. Of course, all of them said “f*ck that” and left that tier to do bigger and better things. Then peeps started claiming that 5D distance thing and the impossibly large tier shiz.

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    • So what's the actual gap?

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    • 2-C for anyone other than Zeno is wank.

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    • We had a long discussion about the angels and Grand Priest being stronger than Beerus and Champa combined, which is all that it would take to qualify for 2-C in the Dragon Ball world.

      Gogeta is only rated as "Possibly 2-C" though.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Honestly, the two combined being 2-C but on their own being Low 2-C makes really no sense, the gap between those two tiers is so huge that you literally cannot get a tier jump no matter how much you multiply or divide it.

      But they literally did. None of them have shown enough power to destroy 2 universes on their own, yet they can do it with their combined strength.

      This was decided after two very long threads, just read them.

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    • Who cares if they haven't shown the power to destroy two universes on their own? The power of them together is only 2x the power they have on their own, and 2-C divided by two is still 2-C, if they show that or not really doesn't matter, a character doesn't need to have a feat if they should logically be that powerful.

      Also, the two threads being long does not matter if the conclusion you guys got to makes no sense.

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    • 2-C divided by 2 is not 2-C.

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    • The gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is currently unquantifiable, meaning no matter how many times you divide it or multiply it, it will still be 2-C (because 5-dimensional axis and stuff, it's in the Tiering System).

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    • Also given how DB universes are structured with the map, they’re not as high into Low 2-C as people are making them out to be. It’s not unquantifiable when the distance between the two has been shown to be much smaller than the universes itself. Frankly I don’t know what’s changed between when we didn’t acknowledge the feat and now.

      So all of a sudden how large the distance is matters now? This can literally work against you by saying the axis isn’t that large so multipliers can make them breach low 2-C and reach 2-C. I’ve never heard of “how big” the 5-D axis must be. And if that’s so relevant then the Infinite Zamasu feat is completely overlooked. You know why? It’s because IZ was able to breach the dimensional barriers of two timelines and two U7s which would be a HUGE 5-D axis that Zamasu was able to embody by himself.

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    • My apologies, but we can only place Beerus and Champa at a very high level of Low 2-C individually, since that is all that we have proof of. Our system is not perfect for situations such as this.

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    • While I agree with Ant that this is the best we can do with our current guidelines... I kind of agree with Zamasu here... We kind of need to relook at IZ's feat... Because it seems to be a lot higher than people are making it out to be merely baseline Low 2C.

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    • Just remove the 2-C from Gogeta's profile and cut all the crap you may receive tbh. It's not like Goku's words on Beerus's strengh are trust worthy when he never saw the latter's full power, so Goku is just doing some assumtion work here

      You guys are doing assumption based on assumption here. Beeru's is all over the place and he is moving goal. This guy went from just a little stonger than SSG to stronger than a freakig SSB fusion "Vegito"

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    • Goku stated Broly 'possibly surpasses' Beerus. Gogeta easily stomped Broly. The novel depicts Gogeta as not using much power.

      SSB Gogeta > Held-back SSB Gogeta >> FPSS Broly >/= Beerus

      So what is the argument against this? "Beerus's power is in flux". Okay, so? Has his power been updated NOW? Is Goku's claim shown to be incorrect? Is there any evidence that Broly ISN'T comparable to Beerus? There certainly is not evidence against Gogeta easily curbstomping Broly.

      So the only argument against 'Possibly 2-C' Gogeta is whether Broly is actually comparable to Beerus and how much of an AP advantage would result in a stomp.

      Is Broly comparable to Beerus? Frieza certainly praises Broly's strength as unmatchable. SS Broly is 2.5x GoD Toppo's power (presuming Goku didn't grow even slightly stronger from UIO3, UI and from being fully rested). Goku blatantly states Broly may surpass Beerus. FPSS Broly adapted to, and could tank, dozens of attacks from Gogeta Blue. So what logic or rationale would reject these claims? Nothing. Nothing other than personal bias.

      How much of an AP advantage would result in a stomp? The absolute lowest figure in the franchise is Vegeta stomping Dodoria with a 1.1x difference in power level. However, power levels are inconsistent and stupid measures of AP gaps, consider that 50% Frieza could block Goku's X20 Super Kamehameha with a single hand for example or Goku going Kaio-Ken to quickly defeat a heavily weakened Nappa, etc. We also have examples in DBS of characters such as Hit and 17 tanking blows that should be FAR above their power (X10 Goku, Jiren). So there is no consistency to AP stomps when comparing Power Level difference and Multiplier difference. Thus, no argument can be made regarding what an AP stomp multiplier would actually be.

      However, as Zamasu argued, Broly has an absurd ability to grow vastly stronger by adapting to his opponents. If the difference between Gogeta Blue and FPSS Broly was less than 2x, FPSS Broly would have adapted and matched Gogeta Blue before he was defeated and nearly killed. So, did FPSS Broly lose his adaptive abilities? Is there any evidence to claim that he did? As far as I can tell, no. He was still growing stronger.

      So, overall. There is no argument against Possibly 2-C Gogeta, as presented here in this thread. Most of the arguments here have already been covered in the revision thread itself. While it is fine to express your opinions I would suggest focusing on constructing a singular argument for WHY Gogeta Blue isn't Possibly 2-C.

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    • So does that mean Jiren and UI Goku are stronger than Broly?

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    • Jiren is states to be “The strongest foe in Dragon Ball History” meanwhile Broly is stated to be “The strongest Saiyan.” So make of that what you will, but most of the community would agree that Jiren is stronger in the end

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    • Jiren was stated to be “The strongest foe in Dragon Ball History” before Broly was a thing. Pretty sure Broly is refred as the "strongest foe" in like 6-7 source and the movie team literally the stakes were too high with Broly so they want to dump down the threat.

      The problem is Broly never felt as threatening as Jiren becasue Gogeta victimized him near the end.

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    • Alright, here. Show me where’s the proof that Broly has done anything at the level of Jiren, let alone Beerus. It’s not possible because like how Broly has been since the 90s, his entirety is built up on hype, not feats.

      Second, show me how Goku’s word can be trusted. Yeah sure he’s a master martial artist and all but this is the same guy who thought U6 era Kaioken Blue would’ve been enough to take on Beerus in the past. He’s already been shown to be unreliable when it comes to gauging Beerus’s power. Keep in mind Beerus stayed home because he didn’t think he was needed. You’d think a threat to his power would be enough to keep him invested but no. Heck, Whis doesn’t even comment on it. We had a harder time accepting Cell’s 4-B statement and at least Cell had the benefit of not being wrong before.

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    • "So make of that what you will, but most of the community would agree that Jiren is stronger in the end"

      Most of the community would think of a lot of funny things.

      “The strongest Saiyan"

      Also where was this stated I think I might have blink and missed it somehow?

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    • Honestly, yes. Jiren and UI Goku should be vastly above Broly as they have the feats to back it up. It takes an hour for Broly to beat down Frieza when it takes Jiren minutes. Combatting UI in itself is a testament to Jiren’s strength.

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    • I honestly think that "at least Low 2-C" is perfectly fine. "Possibly 2-C" just because "lol multipliers" is baseless, considering all of the discussion about the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C we've made in the past.

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    • "It takes an hour for Broly to beat down Frieza when it takes Jiren minutes."

      I thought we agreed it wasn't the same Frieza?

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    • Frieza was stronger than the one in ToP and by that logic Toppo would stomp Broly cuz "lol he can one shot Frieza"

      People still use this pathetic excuses to downplay Broly? Lets ignore the fact that Goku and Vegeta couldn't hold Broly off for 2 min and Frieza himself think Broly is the strongest guy ever

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    • The frieza excuse is just that... An excuse. You are all forgetting Frieza is a lot stronger than he was in the ToP to the point even before Frieza showed up Vegeta thought he was a big threat due to training. Hype or not DBS Broly has a multitude of statements hinting at his power in Legendary or Super Saiyan form, including Frieza's statement.... Literally even the trailers themselves said Gogeta and Broly (when they were in Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue ^ Super Saiyan to Full Power) were regarded as the strongest in history. So they have a lot going for them...

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    • @Cal, what makes Goku’s statement so wrong or contradictory? Is it because he’s been wrong before? He’s he was proven wrong way before but his statement makes sense here. Ssj Broly is already stronger than GoD Toppo so what makes Legendary Broly so fodder compared to Broly. Are you forgetting that Legendary Broly is potentially on par or even superior to ssg Gogeta? That same Gogeta who’s stronger than blue Goku in base. Nothing contradicts Broly being stronger than Beerus especially when all the promotional material points to Broly as the strongest opponent period.

      As for the others who oppose this, Gogeta blue is rated as possibly 2-C for a reason. It’s because it’s possible he’s superior to the combination of Beerus and Champa who can perform a 2-C feat together. It’s not like we’re taking a baseline character and multiplying it by 2. It’s like no one read through the revisions and apparently no one knows what the he’ll possibly means. What arbitrary nonsense.

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    • Frankly, I wouldn't ignore Goku's statement about Broly being "possibly stronger then Beerus". It wouldn't be right, DBS is REALLY but REALLY vague with these kind of things, if we had to nitpick which statements are true and which aren't you'd go crazy.



      That said, I still think that Gogeta being 2x Gods, even """possibly""", is pure utter arbitrary nonsense based on nothing less than pure stomp hype. When multiple people, even the ones that are fine with this tiering, agreed that power levels, multipliers and scaling are inconsistent as hell in this series.

      Something so arbitrarty to this degree shouldn't be allowed, like, at all.

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    • Don’t forget Broly being relatively close to Gogeta Blue means he’s 25,000x blue Goku.

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    • Which means nothing with the discussion here.

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    • Huesito88 wrote: Which means nothing with the discussion here.

      No it’s for people who believe that Legendary Broly is close to blue Gogeta which is either absurd wank or humongous downplay.

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    • @Rashi what exactly says that Gogeta isn’t 2x greater than Broly?

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    • DBS isn’t vague about anything. The series is as blunt as Goku’s fists.

      I don’t recall the Frieza statement but even if it were there, having trained and gotten stronger isn’t a “get out of logic free” card. Nothing and I mean nothing implies that Frieza got stronger to the point where he’s GoD Toppo level. And ridicule me all you want for thinking that. Challenge it with an argument than saying “We already debunked that” or “you’re downplaying” or anything like that. No other series gets to say “I got stronger” with no other feats to get away with an insane buff. Frieza’s fearless in the Broly movie. Deal with it. Nothing puts anything in the Broly movie well above endgame ToP other than a single statement of hype of someone who’s been unreliable with this kind of stuff before and even then he said probably.

      And no, I didn’t read through the revisions because everything brought up in it was brought up before years ago and disregarded, so I don’t know what’s changed since then. And no that doesn’t devalue my arguments.

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    • Where were you Cal when we decided that current Frieza stomps Toppo?

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    • Somewhere else, but it’s BS. Imagine getting shit on by someone and having no feats to back up getting stronger to such an extent but people still say that you do.

      Mewtwo’s constantly said to be the strongest Pokémon, but he’s mid-high tier in Legendaries. If this were Dragon Ball, that statement would be enough to scale him to at least the Lunar Duo.

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    • I agreed on At Least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C as a Super Saiyan Blue for Gogeta because that was agreed on the thread. 

      @AKM sama should add what was agreed on that thread.


      As for UI Goku, UBW Jiren, FPSSJ Broly, Champa and Beerus they should get At Least Low-2C which what I proposed on that thread because I knew this was going to be a problem. This charaters are confirmed possible stronger than Beerus and should be high into the Low-2C which is unknown how high they are and thats why At Least should be given to them. 

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    • So should we change Gogeta's "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" rating to "At least Low 2-C" or just "Low 2-C"?

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    • I think just Low 2-C is fine.

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    • Only angle and above should get 2-C rating. Everone else shold just be low 2-C

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      DBS isn’t vague about anything. The series is as blunt as Goku’s fists.

      I don’t recall the Frieza statement but even if it were there, having trained and gotten stronger isn’t a “get out of logic free” card. Nothing and I mean nothing implies that Frieza got stronger to the point where he’s GoD Toppo level. And ridicule me all you want for thinking that. Challenge it with an argument than saying “We already debunked that” or “you’re downplaying” or anything like that. No other series gets to say “I got stronger” with no other feats to get away with an insane buff. Frieza’s fearless in the Broly movie. Deal with it. Nothing puts anything in the Broly movie well above endgame ToP other than a single statement of hype of someone who’s been unreliable with this kind of stuff before and even then he said probably.

      And no, I didn’t read through the revisions because everything brought up in it was brought up before years ago and disregarded, so I don’t know what’s changed since then. And no that doesn’t devalue my arguments.

      SS Broly is 50x SSB Goku, due to stacking Wrath and Super saiyan. Director Nagamine confirmed that SSBE is equivalent to Goku's KKX20 Blue. In other words, SS Broly is, at minimum, 2.5x the power of GoD Toppo. GoD Toppo had some difficulty but managed to KO Frieza in about a minute of fighting. SS Broly couldn't knock Frieza out, even once, in over an hour.

      So while there is argument on whether or not Frieza is GoD Toppo-level, there is no argument that Frieza is vastly superior to how he was in the ToP.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Somewhere else, but it’s BS. Imagine getting shit on by someone and having no feats to back up getting stronger to such an extent but people still say that you do.

      Mewtwo’s constantly said to be the strongest Pokémon, but he’s mid-high tier in Legendaries. If this were Dragon Ball, that statement would be enough to scale him to at least the Lunar Duo.

      Except Goku stated Broly is comparable to Beerus in power. Gogeta effortlessly stomped Broly, hell Gogeta wasn't even hit once by Broly after going Blue, to memory. So Gogeta is Possibly 2-C for scaling far above Broly who scales to around Beerus.

      The argument regarding LB Jiren and UI Goku is up for debate, honestly. I personally think Jiren is stronger than UI Goku and FPSS Broly but I'm not sure if I would claim he is 2-C material via that scaling. This is due to the logic of how Jiren matched Ultra Instinct via brute force, overpowering, etc whereas UI Goku mostly had to use counters to damage Jiren. The gap between UI Goku and Jiren in AP probably isn't huge but...it's certainly present.

      Also, AKM made all the GoDs comparable (which I heavily disagreed with) so, by that rationale? Base Jiren and UIO3 Goku should be treated as Beerus-level. LB Jiren and UI Goku would be far above that. I disagree with that heavily but...yeah, if that's what the wiki is going to go along with...that argument has no opposition.

      So, debating UI Goku and LB Jiren scaling will have to be factored based on how we scale the GoDs and what evidence in the anime would override the magazine scan, that claims UI Goku 'possibly' surpasses Beerus.

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    • Well, the angels will keep their current rating, but I would appreciate staff input regarding what we should do with Gogeta.

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    • I'll TL;DR what I want to see in the opposition argument:

      It is undeniable that Gogeta Blue easily curbstomped FPSS Broly. It is also undeniable that Goku claimed Broly is at least comparable to Beerus-level.

      • Did Gogeta Blue fight with his true power, or was he holding back? (Evidence points to holding back, considering his lighthearted and casual fighting, along with, to memory, some statements in the novel that describe Gogeta as casual)
      • Does Broly scale to Beerus-level?

      These two points in particular are what holds the "Gogeta scales to 2-C" argument together. If Gogeta stomped a Beerus-level opponent while holding back, there is no argument that Possibly 2-C isn't a reasonable stance.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      So should we change Gogeta's "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" rating to "At least Low 2-C" or just "Low 2-C"?

      This. "At least Low 2-C" is the fairiest option IMHO

      If people want to believe he is 2-C, they are free to do so

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    • @Cryo, you’re actually right about that. Whis himself said a God of Destruction should not fight a God of Destruction and suppressed Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction.

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    • Yes, so either Jiren and Goku both scale to at least Possibly 2-C for surpassing the GoDs, which are scaled as comparable based on AKM's judgement...or how GoDs are judged should be adjusted.

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    • I need more staff input in order for this discussion to become concluded.

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    • Just remove 2-C from Gogeta and spare yourself all the headache Ant...

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    • For those hinking Goku , Vegeta, or even Frieza didn't become much stronger between the end of ToP and Broly Movie...

      Goku and Vegeta both agreed that the power of a Saiyan is Limitless ... Literally in the Broly Movie Goku states that as of now he's nearing his limit when before he didn't think he was anywhere near reaching his limit ... So Goku then (as of Base to SSB) was a lot stronger. Makes sense with all the limit breaking he did after Post-UIO 2nd and then MUI.... It makes a lot of sense. Where he is in comparison to UIO 3rd to MUI... That is debatable... 

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    • Here is my proposal:

      Beerus and Champa - At Least Low-2C

      FPSSJBroly - At Least Low-2C

      BUW Jiren - At Least Low-2C

      MUI Goku - At Least Low-2C

      Gogeta SSJBlue - At least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Just remove 2-C from Gogeta and spare yourself all the headache Ant...

      Uh. No. This entire thread is regarding Gogeta Blue's tiering and, thus far, no argument has being brought up that hasn't already been settled in the revision thread that Gogeta became 2-C. Downgrading a character for no reason other than "I don't think it's right" is just plain wrong.

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    • Goku has a pretty good idea what's considered GoD level as he has fought Jiren 1-on-1. His statement about Broly is made with that in mind. I don't see why it would be unreliable.

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    • Because Goku has been unreliable about this before @AKM. I see zero reason to take a hype statement with any bit of seriousness when there’s no feat to back it up. Nobody else mentions this other than Frieza’s hype statement about nobody being able to beat him. Again, refer to my Mewtwo statement because the more this goes on the more I believe that.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Because Goku has been unreliable about this before @AKM. I see zero reason to take a hype statement with any bit of seriousness when there’s no feat to back it up. Nobody else mentions this other than Frieza’s hype statement about nobody being able to beat him. Again, refer to my Mewtwo statement because the more this goes on the more I believe that.

      The feat is Beerus + Champa = 2-C

      Frieza says Broly is stronger. 

      Goku says Broly might have surpassed Beerus. 

      Comparing different verses to bring an argumnent makes no sense. 

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    • Goku is a Master Martial Artist so his statement is valid. 

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    • Honestly, if we’re not counting Beerus at 2-C by himself then the feat shouldn’t be as notable as we’re making it out to be. There’s a reason we didn’t take it into consideration before. Either Beerus should be 2-C or the feat is at best a bit above baseline Low 2-C as we see there’s not some insane distance between the universes.

      Frieza says Broly is above everyone. Unless Broly is above Whis, Grand Priest, and Zeno, then that statement holds no water but hype.

      Goku thought he surpassed Beerus way back when he was fighting Hit.

      It’s to show the amount of hype certain characters get for statements that hold no water without feats to back it up, which the entirety of the Broly movie lacks. The most notable thing scaling wise in the movie is that Broly is above Goku Vegeta and Frieza by an unfathomable amount. Throw out all the multipliers one wants (which I’m still against) but that’s all that can be proven. Frieza’s statement isn’t any different than SEGA saying that Infinite is the strongest villain in Sonic despite many other characters being above him, if you don’t like the Mewtwo analogy.

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    • @Cal Kudos for the Infinite analogy.

      Beerus + Champa’s feat being 2-C is bullshit since there’s no reason to assume that they would destroy Universes 6 and 7 at once when both were in Universe 7. They would destroy Universe 7 first and then Universe 6 since Universe 6 is right next to it.

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    • The Wright Way wrote: No. The difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite. It's 4-D vs 5-D. You cannot become 2-C just by powerscaling off Low 2-C's, unless you literally view them as fictional.

      What? You are 5-D only in High 2-A, but 2-A and below are 4-D and the difference is being able to destroy more than one universe at the time.

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    • Tony’s 100% right.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Cal Kudos for the Infinite analogy.

      Beerus + Champa’s feat being 2-C is bullshit since there’s no reason to assume that they would destroy Universes 6 and 7 at once when both were in Universe 7. They would destroy Universe 7 first and then Universe 6 since Universe 6 is right next to it.

      To all the skeptics who doubt

      Your argument/Opinion was debunk on thread . As well as other users too. You guys keep repeting yourselves. 

      Now, you guys are doubting Goku or Frieza validity. Whats next Jiren being stronger than Beerus or All God of Destruction is hype statement. Omegalul.

      @The real cal howard

      Beerus sweating to KK it was because he did not know he had such a handy technique. Here

      This has been solved and agreed with @AKM sama proposal.  Thread:3150938

      This thread needs to be closed. 

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    • ProudLearner wrote: Goku is a Master Martial Artist so his statement is valid. 

      You don't seriously think this is how things work in real life right? The degree of how much character can change their Ki is ridiculous. Goku also thought he had a shot against jiren first time they fought before Jiren unleashed his ki and thought Kaio-ken would give him a shot against Beerus in the past. F*cking Goku couldn't tell that Monaka was an absolute weakling.

      Now Goku is a reliable source?

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      You don't seriously think this is how things work in real life right? The degree of how much character can change their Ki is ridiculous. Goku also thought he had a shot against jiren first time they fought before Jiren unleashed his ki.

      No. But Anime yes. 

      Goku thought the Spirit bomb with SSB KKx20 was enough to defeat him yet with Supresssed Jiren realising a hint of his power was enough to defeat Goku. 

      Jiren was so suppressed that Goku could not sense his full potential. Let alone his hidden power. 

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    • Amazing how everything I asked not to be done to respond to my arguments has been done. Said it was already addressed on the other thread I wasn’t on? Check. Laughing at the supposed incredulity of my arguments? Check.

      I trust the DB ratings as far as I can throw them tbh. It’s one of the prime series to get hyped up to oblivion so I don’t trust what’s agreed on unless I see it firsthand. It’s not egotism, it’s skepticism.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      F*cking Goku couldn't tell that Monaka was an absolute weakling.

      Now Goku is a reliable source?

      That's just Goku lacking common sense. or just PIS

      That's really your best argument lol

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    • I heavily agree with Cal here.

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    • ProudLearner wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:

      F*cking Goku couldn't tell that Monaka was an absolute weakling.

      Now Goku is a reliable source?

      That's just Goku lacking common sense. or just PIS

      That's really your best argument lol

      >Goku was wrong in the past and it doesn't support my head canon

      >I will just call it PIS and laugh at the other guy lol.

      You just said Goku lack common sense but then you said his words are trust worthy. Are you listening to yourself buddy?

      This discussion is pointless.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      >Goku was wrong in the pastand it doesn't support my head canon

      >I will just call it PIS and laugh at the other guy lol.

      You just said Goku lack common sense but then you said his words are trust worthy. Are listening to yourself buddy.

      As Goku the Main Charater I will trust his words over you @ZERO7772

      Its just PIS.

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    • @ProudLearner Not really. It went through because of the fanbase wanting Dragon Ball to be as strong as possible rather than legit accuracy.

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    • Kirby Kirby Kirby that’s the name you should know!

      Kirby Kirby Kirby he’s the star of the show!

      Kirby’s the main character of his anime so I’m going to treat “Poyo” like it’s the words of god.

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    • Can I hop in for a second? 

      Conidering I was the one who made the 2 revision threads where Gogeta was upgraded, I strondly advise for people to read through those 2 threads if they have not already. Because after a lengthy discussion, it was agreed upon that Beerus and Champa destroying their 2 universes was a 2-C feat instead of a tier 3 one and because we agreed its a 2-C feat, it would be applicable to scaling to those who are beyond the power of both Beerus and Champa.

      Not taking sides but if you disagree with Gogeta being possibly 2-C, then you'll have to debunk Beerus and Champa doing a 2-C feat in the 1st place.

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    • Honestly, Kukui is right to say this. Every argument here was already brought up in the revision threads and I haven’t seen anyone appropriately claim Gogeta Blue isn’t possibly 2-C with argumentation and/or evidence.

      At this point, I’m just questioning if the people arguing against it have even skimmed the revision threads.

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    • Yeah because I clearly have the time and energy to read through two large af threads. It’s much easier for those who have already read it to summarize the arguments.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @ProudLearner Not really. It went through because of the fanbase wanting Dragon Ball to be as strong as possible rather than legit accuracy.

      We are using a feat of Beerus vs Champa to see where are standing and then we see who is stronger then they are combine with the resutls being All Angels and GP upgraded. This previous charaters that mention are unquantifiably way stronger than Beerus and Champa combine. As said by @CryoTheMayo "'Occam's Razor'. The concept that the 'simplest' solution is usually the correct one. You have to make many claims, many assumptions, with no evidence, to come to the conclusion that Beerus and Champa would destroy Universe 7, then 6 and then just stop. Whereas, simply claiming the feat is 2-C due to them fighting in Universe 7 and threatening both Universe 6 and 7 only requires pointing to what their attendants claimed within the canon."

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Yeah because I clearly have the time and energy to read through two large af threads. It’s much easier for those who have already read it to summarize the arguments.

      That explains your lazy behavior on this thread. Take your time and read it. Just like right now you have the time to complain about it with no evidence and just speculation. 

      Its not our problem that the two threads were open for weeks and you did not participate. 

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    • Yeaaaaah I don't understand why you are arguing this if you haven't at least skimmed all of our work and debate. We didn't go through hundreds of posts just for it to be all dismissed with arguments that were already debated and settled.

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    • Summarize then. It takes less time.

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    • I still have to understand who is the wise mind that can determinate that Gogeta is as strong as the COMBINED power of Beerus and Champa, possibly without using arbitrary wanking nonsensical and most importantly of all STUPID head canon stomp multipliers.

      In a series where BOTH Stomps and Multipliers are inconsistent af

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    • The arguments have already been, mostly, summarised. Going into the exact depth and magnitude of what directions we took said arguments would take quite a while, all to update somebody who could easily just pop open the two threads and skim through all of it in an hour or so.

      If somebody wants to go ahead and update you, they can have fun with it. Maybe ask AKM? He was involved in more of the thread than I was, and he was the one who did the updates IIRC.

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    • RashFaustinho wrote: I still have to understand who is the wise mind that can determinate that Gogeta is as strong as the COMBINED power of Beerus and Champa, possibly without using arbitrary wanking nonsensical and most importantly of all STUPID head canon stomp multipliers.

      In a series where BOTH Stomps and Multipliers are inconsistent af

      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


      This

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    • I was in both threads, go check it out. The argument for Gogeta being as strong as the combined power of Beerus and Champa was and still remains stupid wanking fanboyism, whatever you put it.

      The arguments presented for Gogeta being this strong through "Stomp Multipliers", putting him 2X GoDs because "he stomped Broly" were stupid before and are stupid still now, but I guess Gogeta's just too cool for that, uh?

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    • Okay, everyone, lets keep this civil please? 

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    • Again, and again, I have said this repeatedly. It isn't wanking. Gogeta explicitly curbstomped Broly in-universe and is described in vivid detail in the novel. Gogeta curbstomped someone comparable to Beerus and is described as doing so without much effort. It's likely that Gogeta is considerably stronger than he has already displayed and Broly was also unable to adapt to Gogeta, despite Broly adapting to people infinitely stronger than he is in mere minutes or Broly even adapting to SS Gogeta and growing so powerful to prompt Gogeta to use Blue.

      I'm honestly not sure what else to say. You keep denying what happens in the story itself to fit your viewpoint that it's fanboyism to claim that Gogeta is 'possibly 2-C' or 'possibly 2x Beerus' for easily curbstomping someone at least as powerful as Beerus.

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    • Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Please prove that SSB Gogeta > Beerus and Champa combined power, especially when Goku said Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. He surely didn’t say he’s above two destroyers.

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    • For the very last goddamn time DB doesn’t acknowledge the infinite gap between 3-A and Low 2-C. I guess Gogeta must be High 2-A then if Broly could adapt to infinity but couldn’t do it again for Gogeta.

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    • @Pritti

      Well, go watch the Broly film or read the novel. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to provide. Gogeta stomped Broly with ease. Broly is Beerus-level. This is only arguing for Possibly 2-C, meaning that it's less than likely 2-C but more than at least Low 2-C due to the scaling presented.

      Gogeta Blue >> Broly >/= Beerus

      I also didn't argue, at all, that Broly is 2x Beerus so I have no idea why you are claiming that.

      @Cal

      What relevance does this...have exactly? You seem to be misusing the term infinity as well. I am referring to figuratively infinite. Goku became 'infinitely' more powerful for leaping from 4-B to 3-A via the God Ritual. Broly went from somewhere above 2nd form Frieza to stomping Post-ToP SSG Goku.

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    • Literally non of you even attempted to explain why Broly couldn’t adapt to Gogeta. Broly, after the Star dust breaker, literally had a massive outburst in power and still couldn’t lay a finger on Gogeta.

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    • Doesn't all the 12 Universe have the same Space-Time? i mean, when trunks traveled throught time numerous time, it created Time rings in the Universe 10, it isn't possible if they aren't at the same Time-space.

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    • 2x Beerus is not 2-C, it’s not even At least Low 2-C, even if Beerus is above baseline.

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    • I'm tired of this, I've repeated this times and times again in 3 different threads, stomping someone doesn't mean ANYTHING in this manga. We've multiple instances of people stomping with minuscle differences in power, people NOT stomping with ABNORMOUS difference in power, super saiyan multipliers not working as intended, and so on and so forth. But all of this is ignored. Because he stomped Broly. And since he stomped him, "it makes sense that he is possibly 2X Gods" None of this makes sense. This is just stuff that you're been making through your mind and isn't supported by the manga whatsoever. Because this series is inconsistent as hell. Claiming there is a certain difference between a stomper and a stomped is plain out stupid.

      Either way I've noticed that the mods tend to agree with those who spam and comment more aggressively when they don't agree between themselves. Because they don't have the time to read through all of this - Even the users themselves don't have the time to read all that stuff. So this is all a waste of time. I've strongly opposed to this nonsense, there is people rightfully so lamenting about this ridicolous wanking, but I couldn't do a thing about it. Gogeta will be possibly 2-C because the Dragon Ball community decided so. Based on a STOMP. On a guy "possibly stronger than Beerus."

      • Sigh*
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    • He’s stronger than him. That’s all that needs to be said. You’re acting like Broly is if SCP-682 had a baby with Doomsday that became a Saint from Saint Seiya and can adapt without limits forever. He’s not. He clearly just reached his peak at the moment.

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    • I honestly agree with Cal and Rash. There’s too many rushed conclusions here.

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    • Rash. We literally argued that multipliers and power level scaling are too inconsistent to use for scaling the multipliers for AP stomps. Can you PLEASE refresh your mind on what possibly means?

      I'm not even bothering with what Pritti said. Please go skim the revision threads that were specifically about arguing that claim.

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    • The Causality wrote:
      Doesn't all the 12 Universe have the same Space-Time? I mean, when trunks traveled through time numerous time, it created Time rings in the Universe 10, it isn't possible if they aren't at the same Time-space.

      That's complicated. You could also argue that the universes have their own smaller spacetimes while still being bound by a larger one that is the timeline.

      I honestly think that we should clarify how the DB cosmology even works since people seem to disagree on that (and personally, I don't even think that the authors themselves care about it).

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    • Pritti wrote: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Please prove that SSB Gogeta > Beerus and Champa combined power.

      I don't see why Gogeta being possibly 2x as strong as a character he stomped without effort would be a extraordinary claim.

      especially when Goku said Broly is probably stronger than Beerus.He surely didn’t say he’s above two destroyers.

      Why would this be relevant?

      If Broly is comparable to a GoD then stomping him leaves open the possibility of Gogeta being 2-C

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    • Cal and Rash seem to make the most sense here.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      2-C for anyone other than Zeno is wank.

      I actually agree.

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    • I'll ask then. Why do they make the most sense, according to your perspective?

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    • Because that’s not what possibly is used for.

      Stomping a GoD is not possibly 2-C. It’s literally not. That’s like saying someone stomping SMT Michael (a 2-A) is Kagutsuchi level (At least 2-A) or even worst, High 2-A. It’s not.

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    • Because they aren't relying on powerscaling / multiplying wank that the DB fanbase seems to favor in place of actual feats.

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    • Pritti wrote:
      Because that’s not what possibly is used for.

      Stomping a GoD is not possibly 2-C. It’s literally not. That’s like saying someone stomping SMT Michael (a 2-A) is Kagutsuchi level (At least 2-A) or even worst, High 2-A. It’s not.

      Back in 2016 we had to put a note in Dragon Ball profiles to explain that Buu Saga characters weren't going to be 4-A just from being far above Super Perfect Cell. People never seemed to get the gap or the concept of feats.

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    • "Because that’s not what possibly is used for.

      Stomping a GoD is not possibly 2-C. It’s literally not. That’s like saying someone stomping SMT Michael (a 2-A) is Kagutsuchi level (At least 2-A) or even worst, High 2-A. It’s not."

      That's a different topic because apparently Champa and Beerus feat you only need to be 2 times stronger to be 2-C apparently.

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    • DMB 1 wrote:

      That's complicated. You could also argue that the universes have their own smaller spacetimes while still being bound by a larger one that is the timeline.

      Maybe? but there is a proof of a smaller Space-Time for each Universe instead of a Global Space-time? because if not, i think we can't treat the cosmology of this verse like that.

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    • The 2 times stronger thing is literal bullshit invented by DB Fans on this website, who see everything in terms of numerical multipliers.

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    • I give up. None of you are even reading the revision threads. None of you understand the upgrade rationale and you all seem to be against the concept of 2-C Dragon Ball in the first place. Resorting to insulting others based on 'fanboyism' and 'wanking' when you, yourselves, have no argument is weak.

      Evidently, I am too irritated to discuss this any further today. So I'll disengage and return when I am balanced.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: Because they aren't relying on powerscaling / multiplying wank that the DB fanbase seems to favor in place of actual feats.

      It's not about multipliers though, if 2 characters can perform a 2-C feat then anyone who is equal to those 2 combined is 2-C, simple as that, you frame your comments in a way to make it seem like they were upgraded to 2-C simply by being X amount of times above Low 2-C.

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    • Claiming fanboyism and wanking is not insulting.

      Plus I am not against 2-C DB. I’m against the practices use to upgrade it.

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    • "The 2 times stronger thing is literal bullshit invented by DB Fans on this website, who see everything in terms of numerical multipliers."

      Matt I don't think it's that if two people do a feat together we cut the feat in half by 2 for each characters power unless it's stated that for some reason said two characters amplify each other powers to a insane magnitude that's how we've done it. Though here happens to be a 2-C feat where things get a little more complicated. 

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    • Each one is Low 2-C and responsible for the destruction of one universe. Not 2-C.

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    • How did anyone beside Zeno become 2C in the first place?

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    • Vados did say “respective universes”. Sounds like something related to the role of Destroyers rather than their outright power.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: Each one is Low 2-C and responsible for the destruction of one universe. Not 2-C.

      They were in universe 7 and the fight would've resulted in the destruction of two universes all the way from their position.

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    • The gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable normally.

      But when we have two characters of equal Low 2-C power being able to accomplish a 2-C feat, we know that in this case, being stronger than both of those parties combined should make you 2-C. Broly is stated to be stronger than Beerus. This statement is somewhat reliable, especially given Jiren being stronger than the Gods of Destruction and all the other evidence. Goku then fuses with Vegeta. And then they STOMP BROLY OUT. Saying that they are possibly 2-C means that they are possibly comparable to the strength of 2 Beerus level enemies combined. Why? Because when you beat the fuck outta someone like that, STOMP them, like that, arguing that they’re in the same realm of strength is extremely difficult. To claim that someone is AT LEAST around 2x the power of the stomped weaker individual is the least wanky thing anyone can do, because being 1.1x through 1.9x times the power of the foe and waxing their ass is very strange. In the case if the Buu Saga, Matt is right. No amount of stomping scaling trains will close that gap. But this is not a large gap anymore, considering we have 2 GoD’s of equal strength equalling 2-C power together. Being 2x them would make you 2-C. It isn’t hard.

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    • Besides, the Universal Destruction thing was more detailed in the manga where no one outside of Zeno is Tier 2 in the first place.

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    • AstralKing7 wrote: How did anyone beside Zeno become 2C in the first place?

      “Because Beerus and Champa’s feat combined is 2-C so anyone who’s stronger than them is 2-C.”

      Even though it’s not a 2-C feat and you don’t use multipliers in tier 2 but Dragon Ball is special.

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    • Pritti wrote:

      Vados did say “respective universes”. Sounds like something related to the role of Destroyers rather than their outright power.

      The issue is that neither powerscaling or multipliers work like that.

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    • Sera’s back!!!

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    • It is a 2-C feat. They were going to destroy the space-time of two universes. No one is using any stated multipliers of DBS, we’re simply stating that Gogeta is at least twice the strength of Beerus or Champa, both of whom are equal to each other, and adding up 1 + 1 and doubling 1 by 2 are the SAME THING

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    • On the note of multipliers, stomps, scaling chains, and Dragon Ball bias...

      Pokémon is relativistic via scaling to Golem (Pokémon), a relatively slow final stage Pokémon. Deoxys is the fastest thing in the series below MFTL+. He doesn’t need to be even 2x times this thing that’s considered slow even to things that are fodder to it to reach FTL. And guess what speed tier he is. Yet DB is apparently different.

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    • Amexim wrote: It is a 2-C feat. They were going to destroy the space-time of a universe.

      You just contradicted yourself.

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    • Pritti wrote: Vados did say “respective universes”. Sounds like something related to the role of Destroyers rather than their outright power.

      ^This too.

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    • @Matt

      No. It’s not even just Dragon Ball who works this way, one. People all over the community assume that someone is bare minimum 2x the strength of the person they effortlessly stomped. You see this everywhere. Stop projecting your hatred of communities into your comments, you’re a goddamn moderator.

      Two. Your ass should have said something in the thread that discussed the feat in question. But you didn’t even argue there. You just said “I disagree” like that meant anything, and at best, didn’t contribute to the conversation as much as Cal, or anyone else did. Even now, Cal contributes more to this tread constructively than you do, when not only do you post only a few sentences at BEST, and you remain derogatory all the while, at least half of your posts are dedicated to insulting and accusing people of wanking. The other ones are either 2 words long, or making a claim without establishing an argument to support it, as if the claim being made is all that is necessary. And you’re doing the same thing now that you did back in the other thread, on top of misunderstanding the thread and the conclusion we’re working from because no one thinks Beerus and Champa individually were 2-C. We said that they did a 2-C feat. They were going to destroy both of the universe’s space-times simultaneously and we came to that conclusion using Occams Razor, because every other method to get to YOUR idea adds more information we are given.

      3. You’re disrespectful as fuck, and you get away with it far more than you should. Cal and every other staff member that disagrees with the rating at least has the capability of trying to substantiate their arguments. And I know you do too. But you seem to not try anymore. You need to take another break, because you’re doing the same shit you did with the sonic threads.

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    • My bad Shadow. I’ll edit it. They were going to destroy the space times of 2 universes.

      And speculating on the nature of the destruction based on a statement that vague is going to require more assumptions than it would to simply accept they’re going to destroy both universes simultaneously. And even then. That speculation wouldn’t contradict them destroying both of the universes and seems like it could be irrelevant.

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    • If Beerus and Champa fought together against Gogeta, they'd most likely win. Gogeta isn't that much stronger than Beerus or Champa.

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    • Tbh I think so too. Claiming characters are x amount stronger has no basis.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      If Beerus and Champa fought together against Gogeta, they'd most likely win. Gogeta isn't that much stronger than Beerus or Champa.

      Can two guys that are half as strong as another guy beat said guy? 

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    • >Says I'm disrespectful in a comment that insults me multiple times.

      I, Hypocrite

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    • The Causality wrote:
      Doesn't all the 12 Universe have the same Space-Time? i mean, when trunks traveled throught time numerous time, it created Time rings in the Universe 10, it isn't possible if they aren't at the same Time-space.

      ^^^^^^^^This was the exact reason why I called out this issue in my 2 earlier threads in the first place. Incase people here didnt know this.

      Before Gogeta got upgraded, there was a discussion rule in place that explicitly specified that Beerus and Champa destroying U6 and U7 wasnt even a tier 2 feat since there was no evidence of them being able to destroy the space-times of both universes. Just their matter, which is a 3-A feat only.

      Yet

      At the same time, the DBS Comsmology isnt treated as a 3-A structure here currently, its treated as a 2-C structure since we currently accept the universes being their own separate space-times. Which is the reason why Zen'o is 2-C to begin with.

      This was completely contradictory since if we treat the DBS Multiverse as a 2-C one, then that means Beerus and Champa destroying U6 and U7 would have to be a 2-C feat as destroying the matter of both universes cant bypass dimensional barriers, only space-time level destruction can do that. But if we were to continue treating their feat as a 3-A one, then that would mean we're saying the universes in DBS can be destroyed by matter-destruction, which can only be done if the universes share the same space-times. Meaning we would have to downgrade the cosmology of the verse instead of upgrading Beerus and Champa.

      So if this is an issue again, then we have to make a choice. Either we accept the universes being their own space-times, which would mean we accept Beerus and Champa doing a combined 2-C feat, OR we accept the universes being in the same space-time, meaning Beerus and Champa's feat would be only 3-A and thus we'd have to downgrade Zen'o and the verse's cosmology. Its either one or the other.

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    • @Hue

      There is no evidence that Gogeta is twice as strong as Beerus.

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    • That’s not the same thing Sera.

      Having 2x the power of an individual who is half the strength of someone who can accomplish x feat when they other individual of equal strength is in the equation== where 1 is Beerus, and Champa is also around 1 in value. They add up to 2. 2 in this case is a 2-C feat.

      Having double the value of 1, means you have 2. And in a fight, especially dragon Ball, 2x the difference is hardly anything. We’re assuming the bear minimum here because of that.

      And having 2x the strength of one person in a fight isn’t going to make me stomp the other two simultaneously. And being 2x the strength of that person isn’t that much stronger.

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    • @Amexim

      Ah, okay. That's where 2x comes from. Thank you.

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    • @Professor Kukui

      ^That x1000

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    • Ultima and I debunked the Beerus and Champa 2-C statement a long time ago. Whateve happen to that?

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    • T’wasnt on-site I think.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote: So if this is an issue again, then we have to make a choice. Either we accept the universes being their own space-times, which would mean we accept Beerus and Champa doing a combined 2-C feat, OR we accept the universes being in the same space-time, meaning Beerus and Champa's feat would be only 3-A and thus we'd have to downgrade Zen'o and the verse's cosmology. Its either one or the other.

      Or option 3: the feat is not 2-C because they would’ve destroyed Universe 7 first and then Universe 6, which would be Low 2-C.

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    • I think the issue here was phrasing. The phrasing confuses people— by saying we’re stronger than both gods combined, it supposed to be read as 2x stronger than Beerus, instead of who would win in a fight between two GoDs and Gogeta.

      Being 2x stronger than either of them would make you comparable to the 2-C feat, as, Beerus and Champa, who are relatively equal, can add their equal power together and do a 2-C feat. 1 + 1 is 2. To argue that doubling beerus’s 1 won’t get us 2 is illogical, because when we add a character who’s got the same value of strength (1) we get a 2-C feat. 2. Adding 1 + 1 abd doubling 1 by 2 gets you the same result.

      This is enough for the VAGUEST rating possible at least. “Possibly”. If not for viable but vague reasons, when do we use possibly? Because we consistently avoid it in my experience here.

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    • >2-C DBS

      >Not Zeno

      what

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    • They’re right next to each other. It’s easier to suggest collateral damage than instant destruction. And even still it’d be 2x 3-A and not Low 2-C.

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    • Omg I just screamed when Sera understood me. Thank you. Whether she agrees or not is another thing entirely, but at least I know I make sense.

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    • Shadow. We went over why that didn’t make sense in the last thread. READ IT. Because this is ridiculous. No one should spoon feed information to people who’s arguments have already been addressed.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Or option 3: the feat is not 2-C because they would’ve destroyed Universe 7 first and then Universe 6, which would be Low 2-C.

      This was debunked multiple times in my threads though Shadow.

      Beerus and Champa cant travel to different universes on their own, they need Whis and Vados (who quite obviously wouldnt help them) to do that. They were going to destroy the universes right from their position in U7.

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    • Pritti wrote:

      They’re right next to each other. It’s easier to suggest collateral damage than instant destruction. And even still it’d be 2x 3-A and not Low 2-C.

      This. Otherwise we could suggest whatever Universe is on the other side of U7 (opposite end of U6) would get destroyed if the distance between the universes is the same.

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    • And in a fight, especially dragon Ball, 2x the difference is hardly anything. We’re assuming the bear minimum here because of that.

      Lmao

      Seriously, guys, I've given up.

      It has been THREE THREADS in the span of around half a month that I've been reading stuff such as the one mentioned above.

      I just don't have the strength to argue about this anymore, with all this people.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Occam's razor, there is no indication they would've traveled to the other universe to accomplish that and they haven't even shown the ability to do so without the assistance of people explicitly trying to stop their fight because of the inmediate threat it represents.

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    • Pritti wrote:
      They’re right next to each other. It’s easier to suggest collateral damage than instant destruction. And even still it’d be 2x 3-A and not Low 2-C.

      If destroying U6 and U7 is only a 3-A feat, then that means that the different universes can be destroyed wth non space-time level destructive attacks. Meaning they would be sharing the same space-times as each other in order for this to happen.

      Meaning, the cosmology of the verse is what needs to be downgraded.

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    • Pritti.

      The feat was already agreed to be 2-C due to the characters being Low 2-C and able to destroy space times of universes. We already established that it is unreasonable to assume there would be collateral or sequential damage of the universes in the previous thread. Read it. Come back and counter every argument made there.

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    • Shadow isn’t even saying they would travel. He’d talking about a domino effect.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      If destroying U6 and U7 is only a 3-A feat, then that means that the different universes can be destroyed wth non space-time level destructive attacks. Meaning they would be sharing the same space-times as each other in order for this to happen.

      Meaning, the cosmology of the verse is what needs to be downgraded.

      Yes. To conclude this topic, we would have to revise the DB Spatio-Temporal cosmology.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Ultima and I debunked the Beerus and Champa 2-C statement a long time ago. Whateve happen to that?

      It was likely the fact you accept universes to be separate space times (hence why Zeno is 2-C) making it impossible for their feat to only be 3-A as it would need to overcome that separation to be achieved in the first place.

      If the idea is that space times between Universes aren't separate in dragon ball then 2-C and Low 2-C are invalid to begin with.

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    • DMB 1 wrote:

      Yes. To conclude this topic, we would have to revise the DB Spatio-Temporal cosmology.

      Dont get me wrong, im not disagreeing with this being an opinion.

      Im just pointing out to people who pick a side what needs to be done if you pick x side or y side. Im neutral on this.

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    • Pritti wrote:
      Shadow isn’t even saying they would travel. He’d talking about a domino effect.

      This.

      Since they’re both in Universe 7, they would destroy Universe 7 first and then their shockwaves would travel to Universe 6 to destroy it as well as Universe 6 is right next to Universe 7.

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    • Rash, you keep saying “it doesn’t make sense to say that they’re 2x stronger” and that it’s wank is just you arguing from incredulity at this point. Me stomping x out with ease demonstrates i’m so much stronger than x that it takes little effort. People have been able to take blows from people that were 3 or even 4 times that which they could put out before. A measily 2x difference in power is not only NOT ARBITRARY, but it’s not even WANK. Pro boxers probably punches 5x harder than me, and if I block the attack with my arms, I still might go out. Stomping someone with far less ease than oneshotting them and claiming that it is reasonable to assume they are still relative in power is ridiculous. By saying that it is far fetched to assume a measily 2x gap, you’re saying that assuming anything from 1.1x to 1.9x a difference in overall power is a more reasonable claim.

      This is false.

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    • They aren't. But our system isn't perfect so, I just go with it.

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    • The twelve universes aren’t separate universes iyo?

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    • That'd be plain 2-C as well, you make no sense at all, as long as they're positioned in a way their energy would reach and destroy two universes they're going to need 2-C levels of energy to destroy both.

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    • So destroying universe 7 all of a sudden makes it so they can be in universe 6 or there attacks travel to there after destroying universe 7 and then destroy universe 6. Is that what your saying?

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    • Shadow: That’s a 2-C feat. If the same attack that blows up one building spreads to the rest of the city in an explosion as well, that’s a city busting explosion.

      Unless you’re trying to argue there’s some pillars or support or structure that causes a chain-reaction to destroy the universes together, which there is no evidence of, what we’re arguing, and what you are claiming, is literally the same thing. An explosion originating in one universe crossing over to another one. Just like an explosion blowing up a star and causing it to supernova spreads out into the rest of the planets and gradually destroys them.

      And if you’re trying to say that they would cause two separate explosions in two different universes, how would they do so? They could not travel to the other universe and fight again, and— look. We already addressed this in the threads. Just ignore him.

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    • Summarizing for you people is wrong since you have to read everyones argumnet on both threads. Stop being lazy and read both threads because most of your arguments were debunk on both threads. 

      Everyone is argument breaks the Occam's Razor principles. 

      Beerus + Champa = Base 2-C  via This

      We know the All Angels are way stronger than combine Champa and Beerus hence why they were upgraded. GP to 2-C for being way stronger than All Angels. All Angels to Likely 2-C for being way stronger than Beerus and Champa combine

      Gogeta SSB is stronger than FPSSJBroly who is possibly stronger than Beerus hence why Geogeta Blue was upgraded to Possibly 2-C.

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    • Universe 7 is destroyed -> their shockwaves travel to Universe 6 -> Universe 6 then gets destroyed.

      One at a time, so it’s a Low 2-C feat.

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    • @Pritti.

      It's proven in the series itself.

      In DB, a universe is defined as "planets, stars, a large number of galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, and all contents of mater and energy." IIRC this is from Daizenshuu 4.

      You know as well as I do that the word "multiverse" (multi-dimensional space time) is never once used in the original Japanse script of DBS. It's only the dub that uses the term.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      This.

      Since they’re both in Universe 7, they would destroy Universe 7 first and then their shockwaves would travel to Universe 6 to destroy it as well as Universe 6 is right next to Universe 7.

      This still wouldnt be possible to happen if the universes are in separate space-times though.

      Shockwaves cannot bypass dimenional barriers. So if your claiming this shadow, then you have to agree with the universes in DBS not being in their own space-times (which would be the only possible way your argument of shockwaves breeching dimensional walls would make sense).

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    • Lol

      An explosion from my nutsack shattered my pelvis. The shockwaves then travel to the rest of the planet and destroy the planet. Therefore, the explosion was normal human level.

      Even though that SAME explosion destroyed the planet and we don’t categorize how strong something is by the order in which a single action destroys objects but if a single explosion of energy can produce that level of destruction. Shadow. Stop.

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    • Sera EX wrote: @Pritti.

      It's proven in the series itself.

      In DB, a universe is defined as "planets, stars, a large number of galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, and all contents of mater and energy." IIRC this is from Daizenshuu 4.

      You know as well as I do that the word "multiverse" (multi-dimensional space time) is never once used in the original Japanse script of DBS. It's only the dub that uses the term.

      That’s true...

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    • "An explosion from my nutsack shattered my pelvis. The shockwaves then travel to the rest of the planet and destroy the planet. Therefore, the explosion was normal human level."

      Lol I'm dieing 

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      This.

      Since they’re both in Universe 7, they would destroy Universe 7 first and then their shockwaves would travel to Universe 6 to destroy it as well as Universe 6 is right next to Universe 7.

      This still wouldnt be possible to happen if the universes are in separate space-times though.

      Shockwaves cannot bypass dimenional barriers. So if your claiming this shadow, then you have to agree with the universes in DBS not being in their own space-times (which would be the only possible way your argument of shockwaves breeching dimensional walls would make sense).

      You could make all Dragon Ball characters as 2-A so they are all 5D entities and they can break dimensional barriers and traverse 5D space.

      There would be a helluva people that would be super happy with this change in this thread, ya know?

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    • Also, before people throw that the Heaven and hell have different space-time, this is not possible since when Whis rewind time and prank Zamasu before he kill gowasu for the second time, time in the outer world is rewinded but whis was situated in the living world..

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    • If an explosion happens and it is big enough to destroy two things in one explosion, that explosion is strong enough to destroy 2 things. This is basic logic.

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    • Rash, stop instigating. You said you gave up. Now you’re starting shit.

      Matter of fact, rash, explain to me how X beating up Y with the greatest of ease whilst only being 1.1x stronger than Y with equal everything else, is more rational than him being 2x stronger at least. Because that 1.1x seems like it would be a close fight, when it wasn’t.

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    • @ProfessorKukui4Life You would have a point if I was saying the feat was 3-A, but I’m saying it’s Low 2-C. If they’re Low 2-C they can do that.

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    • The extended Dragonball canon heavily implies all the universes share the same timespace.

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    • The Causality wrote:
      Also, before people throw that the Heaven and hell have different space-time, this is not possible since when Whis rewind time and prank Zamasu before he kill gowasu for the second time, time in the outer world is rewinded but whis was situated in the living world..

      Couldn't that just be a testament to Whis range with time hax?

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    • The Causality wrote:
      Doesn't all the 12 Universe have the same Space-Time? i mean, when trunks traveled throught time numerous time, it created Time rings in the Universe 10, it isn't possible if they aren't at the same Time-space.

      @Sera that what i've said before^

      @Husieto without evidence of different space-time, we assume the fact that they have the same instead of throwing hax range, it firstly need to be proved and secondly give the range, not the contrary

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    • Sera, if it shares one time space, that’s fine. You should have been here for the thread to make the case for it is all, and you should make a CRT to change how we treat it normally. Until then, we’ll assume what we have been before.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      The extended Dragonball canon heavily implies all the universes share the same timespace.

      If thats true Sera, then as said before, this is an issue with the cosmology of the verse in general instead of Beerus and Champas specific feat.

      The cosmology needs to be discussed and clarified first before we decide what to do with Beerus and Champa's feat here.

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    • And Shadow.

      If they’re low 2-C that’s not possible unless they do some 2-C shit. Which is what they did. Go read the definition of 2-C and the rest of the thread plz.

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    • Sera EX wrote: The extended Dragonball canon heavily implies all the universes share the same timespace.

      It's cognitive dissonance then to accept Zeno to be 2-C whilst not believing the structure he destroys to qualify for the tier.

      May sound like a false dichotomy but this really seems like a deal where either Zeno and by extension Beerus+Champa are 2-C or no one is and everyone should be downgraded accordingly to the tier that would fit in our system.

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    • Kukui used those feats as a line and said if they were low 2-C the feat has to be 2-C and if not, then the cosmology has to change accordingly.

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    • I've been advocating for downgrading DB before I went on hiatus actually.

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    • @Amexim Yeah I know what 2-C is. There’s no evidence that they would destroy both universes simultaneously.

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    • And that tier would still be Low 2-C due to Infinite Zamasu being 4D (Or Low 2-C or whatever) and then being stronger than him making them Low 2-C.

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    • Amexim wrote:
      Kukui used those feats as a line and said if they were low 2-C the feat has to be 2-C and if not, then the cosmology has to change accordingly.

      This. 

      It's either one or the other people. No in-betweens.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      The extended Dragonball canon heavily implies all the universes share the same timespace.

      Each universe are twins yet they have their own Space-Times Subbed and English DUB as you can see they are separated but they have their own all most copy.

      If you are saying they have the same Space-Times then Zeno would be Low-2C

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      I've been advocating for downgrading DB before I went on hiatus actually.

      Do it. Downgrade the cosmology. Low 2-C Zeno.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      I've been advocating for downgrading DB before I went on hiatus actually.

      Then again, this downgrade thread needs to be made before we decide what to do with Beerus and Champa. 

      So this thread should be closed and we wait on this thread to be made or else we wont get anywhere at all.

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    • In the end, what's being proposed here is to downgrade the verse back to 3-A times, and Low 2-C Zeno?

      Man, people will lose their head about this. LoL

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    • I believe that Kepley was against Low 2-C Zeno.

      And the others would still be Low 2-C via being > Infinite Zamasu.

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    • RashFaustinho wrote:
      In the end, what's being proposed here is to downgrade the verse back to 3-A times, and Low 2-C Zeno?

      Man, people will lose their head about this.

      And this is EXACTLY why this downgrade thread should be staff only. With knowledgeable users being allowed to comment if need be.

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    • Shadow, you don’t understand what a 2-C feat even is— hell, even feats at all for that matter. You don’t have to destroy anything “simultaneously” to get a rating. You do it just with the same attack. An explosion from my house spreading and destroying the universe with the same force and energy makes it a universal explosion. The order of things is irrelevant so long as it’s all with one event/attack/energy.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      RashFaustinho wrote:
      In the end, what's being proposed here is to downgrade the verse back to 3-A times, and Low 2-C Zeno?

      Man, people will lose their head about this.

      And this is EXACTLY why this downgrade thread should be staff only. With knowledgeable users being allowed to comment if need be.

      Yeah, please, STAFF ONLY.

      Given the results of the previous threads, this stuff shouldn't be handled anymore by the "Knowledgeable members"

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    • If the Cosmology Change, Zen'o will be Low 2-C (above baseline) since there exist only one Big Space-Time, Mugen Zamasu will be only Low 2-C.

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    • DMB 1 wrote:
      I believe that Kepley was against Low 2-C Zeno.

      And the others would still be Low 2-C via being > Infinite Zamasu.

      Wouldnt this be kind of outlierish then?

      Because then a lot of characters would be ending up to be in the same tier as Zen'o himself. Unless Zen'o would just simply be at a much higher end of Low 2-C than everyone else?

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    • 1st Rash. Stop being an instigator and shut the fuck up. You’re being extra and blatantly trying to provoke people.

      2nd. They would still be Low 2-C being stronger than Zamasu. Zamasu is literally the only reason why they’re Low 2-C at all.

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    • Just think about the Dragonballs.

      The Super Dragonballs are scattered between universes while the Dark Dragonballs are scattered across space and time, literally differentiating between universes and space-time.

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    • Well if the universes do all indeed share the same space-time, then downgrade Zeno to Low 2-C and everyone else to 3-A.

      That would also solve all the complaints about how DB doesn’t treat the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite.

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    • Aren’t the SDB scattered between U7 and U6 only, as dumb as that is? Still, you have a point about the DDB, which are the strongest incarnation of the Dragon Balls extended canon wise.

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    • Dark DragonBalls?! Oh right, Heroes.

      Kukui; It wouid be an “at least, higher to an unknown degree” sort of thing or at the very least, they can share a tier. It’s not an outlier at all for Zeno to be so much stronger than them in the same tier.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      Just think about the Dragonballs.

      The Super Dragonballs are scattered between universes while the Dark Dragonballs are scattered across space and time, literally differentiating between universes and space-time.

      I.....actually didnt think about this.

      The Super Dragonballs, when scattered, physically go across all the universes after they are used. Not to mention, Super Shenrons light can brighten up multiple of them when awakening.

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    • It's not concrete or the heart of the argument, but yes it's something to consider.

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    • Shadow: It would also make more problems considering Zamasu is still Low 2-C. And everyone is stronger than him.


      Oh, and then them not being Low 2-C doesn’t make sense because of Zamasu. And that would be ignoring the problem just to satisfy a nitpick that doesn’t even need to be addressed because it’s nonsense. Hardly any fiction thinks about basic physics and NOW you wanna complain about no one thinking about High tier shit?

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    • Amexim wrote:

      Kukui; It wouid be an “at least, higher to an unknown degree” sort of thing or at the very least, they can share a tier. It’s not an outlier at all for Zeno to be so much stronger than them in the same tier.

      I meant outlier for everyone else, not Zen'o. Zen'o being a Low 2-C is definite.

      It's everyone else that would look fishy if they were Low 2-C like Zen'o, whos supposed to be completely beyond them. Then again, I dont really mind either way.

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    • Future Zeno's feat is actually 3-A lul. Destroyed the timeline so much that time travel was still possible.

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    • Ultima once said Zamasu is more akin to High 3-A than Low 2-C. My memory fails me so I don't remember the conversation to well, but I recall his reason to be a valid one and I even agreed lol. But I don't remember what he said.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Future Zeno's feat is actually 3-A lul. Destroyed the timeline so much that time travel was still possible.

      Lmao oh wow.

      If this was to be actually considered, then Zamasu would end up being a huge outlier then right?

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    • Well well well

      How about someone creating the thread about the Tier 2 feat of DB from the cosmology? i think this thread is half dead for a CRT.

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    • It’s not an outlier if the characters are so far apart that they never seem to be portrayed close so it doesn’t matter. You could say the same for 2C angels and we weren’t going to, because Zeno can be 2C and Whis can and that’s fine because we know who is massively stronger.

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    • Someone should just create a DB Cosmology thread revision, shift the discussion there and be done with it.

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    • Yeah, this seems more like massively above baseline 3-A considering the destruction of the entire Dragonball cosmos. In Japanese they only say cosmos, they use no terminology to imply the twelve universes are a multi-dimensional cosmology in themselves. Heck, one guy during the beginning of the ToP even said to Goku “Let’s go to Other World together” and he was from Universe 4...

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    • Don’t take Matt seriously Kukui.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Ultima once said Zamasu is more akin to High 3-A than Low 2-C. My memory fails me so I don't remember the conversation to well, but I recall his reason to be a valid one and I even agreed lol. But I don't remember what he said.

      The reason he is Low 2-C is because he merges with time or some stuff like that.

      Anyway, I agree with the proposal of the whole Multiverse having a shared timeline. I was skeptical about this, but looking at the time rings in the Zamasu saga, it's... Pretty obvious, really.

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    • Heck, one guy during the beginning of the ToP even said to Goku “Let’s go to Other World together” and he was from Universe 4...

      ^This is true.

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    • I’m pretty sure Infinite Zamasu would just be downgraded to 3-A since he only fused with Universe 7.

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    • That Otherworld comment shouldn’t be taken seriously, considering otherworldly is outright shown to be part of a universes’ structure

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    • So...using the original language as the basis here. The DB cosmos is just a compilation of macrocosms with realms above and below them, all sharing the same timeline?

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: I’m pretty sure Infinite Zamasu would just be downgraded to 3-A since he only fused with Universe 7.

      The problem isn't that, but the fact that he was affecting space time

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    • Not quite, Pritti. But close.

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    • Yeah, it looks that way, sure. But why did we think different?

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    • <inserting massive thinking emoji>

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      If this was to be actually considered, then Zamasu would end up being a huge outlier then right?

      Zeno's feat was very casual though, so it wouldn't be such a stretch scaling the other to him.

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    • And either way, there’s still issues like, why is the universe infinite if we can just travel to the edge of it, even though we technically can’t unless we’re whis because it’s infinite. Also, to determine if Zamasu fused with time or not is important. If he did merge with space-time, then we can still argue he’s 4D, and therefore Low 2-C.

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    • Pritti wrote: So...using the original language as the basis here. The DB cosmos is just a compilation of macrocosms with realms above and below them, all sharing the same timeline?

      Looks like it, yeah. There is a saga with a bunch of item (rings), with each ring representing a timeline, and by the looks of it, a ring (timeline) encompasses everything - The 12 Universes of the cosmology and the afterlife realm

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    • RashFaustinho wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: I’m pretty sure Infinite Zamasu would just be downgraded to 3-A since he only fused with Universe 7.

      The problem isn't that, but the fact that he was affecting space time

      It could just be space-time manipulation.

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    • RashFaustinho wrote:

      The problem isn't that, but the fact that he was affecting space time

      Staying neutral, but I do want to ask this.

      If we do agree on the universes being their own space-time, then whats actually left to prove Zamasu fused with space-time instead of just their matter? Because at this point, Zamasu wouldnt need to bypass dimensional barriers to fuse with the universes anymore since they would be sharing the same space-time structure.

      The only tid bit of evidence left would be breeching into Goku's U7 and that was only because Future Trunks left an opening between his world and Goku's for Future Zamasu to slip his presence into. He didnt do it with his own power by force.

      Not to mention, Zen'o supposedly using only matter level destruction to get rid of F.Z. since Trunks Time Machine could still travel back.

      So can I ask, what would prove Zamasu fused with space-time and not just matter at this point IF we agree on the universes not being separated?

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    • I'm glad that people are not pussyfooting around this issue anymore, hopefully whatever's decided in the inevitable staff-only thread isn't another half-baked cognitively dissonant compromise to keep controversy to a minimum.

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    • Zamasu physically was projected into the present. Beerus and co. saw merged Zamasu from the present. However this seems to be range and his AP is no more than 3-A

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      The only tid bit of evidence left would be breeching into Goku's U7 and that was only because Future Trunks left an opening between his world and Goku's for Future Zamasu to slip his presence into. He didnt do it with his own power by force.

      That was never stated in the show, Zamasu just appeared in the past without any explanation.

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    • That’s a space time merging thing if I ever saw it. So I would argue that him being a 4D being because of that would give him Low 2-C ap with 3D range

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    • TheRustyOne wrote:
      That was never stated in the show, Zamasu just appeared in the past without any explanation.

      I could have sworn this was brought up multiple times in prior discussions though. 

      Guess someone will have to recheck the episodes.

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    • Just rechecked the Infinite Zamasu scene, not a single statement was given that says he appeared in the past because of Trunks time machine creating a link.

      Whis: "Hmm... I sense... A flow of unpleasant energy that makes my skin tingle."

      Beerus: "It Zamasu. Something happened in the future. It's having an effect on the present."

      Go check yourself if you don't believe me.

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    • This is important. Meaning my guy is definitely Low 2-C. Good. So only Zeno gets changed.

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    • Actually when checking it, there is something that implies IZ came through a portal, even if Future Trunks' time machine didnt cause it.

      When IZ starts appearing in the present, Krillin asks "Could it be like when Goku Black came?". That implies Goku Black did something that left an opening link between the present and future.

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    • What the hell? This thread went off topic for a long time now. If you want to downgrade DB verse then just make a CRT "fanboys won't allow you lol"

      Anyway, are we downgrading Gogeta or not? IMO the rating is too controversial and many people against it to be kept, I thought we only upgraded a character when the majority of staff and members agreed on it?

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    • Another thread was already made though

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      What the hell? This thread went off topic for a long time now. If you want to downgrade DB verse then just make a CRT "fanboys won't allow you lol"

      Anyway, are we downgrading Gogeta or not? IMO the rating is too controversial and many people against it to be kept.

      Actually its not off topic because the cosmology of the verse directly goes in line with Beerus and Champs feat being 2-C, which is 100% crucial to Gogeta being 2-C.

      The cosmology being treated wrong is the actual problem here to deal with first and then once thats done, we can get to Beerus Champa and Gogeta.

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    • Krillin is refering to something coming out of the portal, no reason to assume anything else.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      What the hell? This thread went off topic for a long time now. If you want to downgrade DB verse then just make a CRT "fanboys won't allow you lol"

      Anyway, are we downgrading Gogeta or not? IMO the rating is too controversial and many people against it to be kept, I thought we only upgraded a character when the majority of staff and members agreed on it?

      This is not how it works! You need Staff and knowledgeable members to comment here before downgrading or keeping it as is

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:
      What the hell? This thread went off topic for a long time now. If you want to downgrade DB verse then just make a CRT "fanboys won't allow you lol"

      Anyway, are we downgrading Gogeta or not? IMO the rating is too controversial and many people against it to be kept.

      Actually its not off topic because the cosmology of the verse directly goes in line with Beerus and Champs feat being 2-C, which is 100% crucial to Gogeta being 2-C.

      The cosmology being treated wrong is the actual problem here to deal with first and then once thats done, we can get to Beerus Champa and Gogeta.

      It's all your fault we are having this shit show lol

      Joking aside, staff really should decide what to do about DB verse at this point since apparently many people are annoyed by it

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    • @ProudLearner What are you even talking about? Staff and knowledgeable members have both commented on here.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @ProudLearner What are you even talking about? Staff and knowledgeable members have both commented on here.

      Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

      Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision (Continued)

      This two threads had more staff members agreeing with @AKM sama @CryoTheMayo @ProfessorKuiKui4life

      all of you did not read these threads and want summary of it. Stop going by assumptions because Occam's razor 

      Why the DB Multiverse DOES NOT share the same space-time will debunk what ever @Sera EX has to propose.

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    • Goku Black traveled to the past via time ring and a trail Trunks left by time traveling.

      However Infinite Zamasu doesn't have a time ring, Trunk destroyed it along with Zamasu's body. So Zamasu can't travel through time unless it's with his own power.

      Not only that but the trail Trunks makes only last a few minutes, by the time Infinite Zamasu appeared, the trail should've disappeared.

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    • I feel like... We should conclude this before starting such a revision... As it will shake the DB Community to it's core.

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    • @ProudLearner https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/24/Appeal-to-Common-Belief

      I was on both threads so you can’t say I didn’t read them.

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    • The problem you have, Shadow, is that, assuming everything about the macrocausm stays the same, you’re taking unnessary assumptions. You’re wrong.

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    • So you just assume a blog from two years ago just instantly debunks anything I have to say? Okay then...

      I don’t even care if DB cosmology gets downgraded or not and what I said about the language is undoubtedly fact.

      Still, I’m not pushing for it. I don’t care either way. Didn’t come back from hiatus just to heatedly debate fiction. I admit the thread’s been derailed and we should move on but you guys do whatever. I’m just a moderator.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @ProudLearner https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/24/Appeal-to-Common-Belief

      I was on both threads so you can’t say I didn’t read them.

      Yeah, you were there and your assumptions/opinions were debunk and you never reponded back.

      I was talking about this new comers that never read the both thread and ran on with the same arguments as in the both threads that were already debunked. 

      I beleve the facts which are this . Also, the other users were good at explainng things better than I could. That is why I cite them.

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    • I get the feeling most of the old mods are just too tired on heated fiction debate and don't wanna try anymore.

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    • Cosmology aside, 2-C anyone except Zen’o has still been vehemently opposed.

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    • We will eneter an endless cycle if we start a debate DB cosmology. Can we just reslove this debate? It's getting cancerous.

      This thread made me remember why I hate DB threads in this wiki. I am not showing my face in any DB CRT after this. Shit is just too heated for my taste.

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    • Damn!

      You call this heated debate? I'm having fun! 

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    • That’s not even evidence. “The result in the destruction of Universe 6 and Universe 7” barely even vaguely implies 2-C.

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    • Ehh.... Your sentence is unfinished.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote: I get the feeling most of the old mods are just too tired on heated fiction debate and don't wanna try anymore.

      It’s true.

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote: Ehh.... Your sentence is unfinished.

      The A was a typo. Sorry. ^^;

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    • That explains why none of my Marvel revisions go literally nowhere .. But that's heavily off topic so please ignore that...

      So does anyone have any conclusive evidence besides Multipliers and or "merely how far above Beerus Level " on UI Goku, Jiren , or Gogeta getting the requirements for 2C ?

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    • Sorry but one off handed statement doesn’t constitute an argument. There requires more evidence. That goes for anything, not just DB, but the site has become too heavily reliant of statements when it should go

      Feats > power-scaling > in-universe statements > WoG

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    • Beerus actually only tops out at 3-C because he only destroyed a galaxy and never destroyed a universe onscreen ovo

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      That explains why none of my Marvel revisions go literally nowhere .. But that's heavily off topic so please ignore that...

      So does anyone have any conclusive evidence besides Multipliers and or "merely how far above Beerus Level " on UI Goku, Jiren , or Gogeta getting the requirements for 2C ?

      They will stay the same...  hight into the Low-2C until we get something that SSB Goku or Goku's next UI boost will get him way above Beerus. 

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    • Pritti is right, above all else, this is the heart of my issue here. It’s one statement that has never been reiterated or mentioned again. That’s not how providing evidence works. There requires more evidence unless the statement is heavily contextualized, which Vados’ statement....is not.

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    • ZephyrosOmega wrote:
      Beerus actually only tops out at 3-C because he only destroyed a galaxy and never destroyed a universe onscreen ovo

      Read this

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    • Pritti wrote: Sorry but one off handed statement doesn’t constitute an argument. There requires more evidence. That goes for anything, not just DB, but the site has become too heavily reliant of statements when it should go

      Feats > power-scaling > in-universe statements > WoG

      ^

      This

      I love you.

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    • Seems Pritti + veteran staff (myself, Matt, Cal, Prom) agree on that much. Glad to know I’m not the only one.

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    • ProudLearner wrote:
      ZephyrosOmega wrote:
      Beerus actually only tops out at 3-C because he only destroyed a galaxy and never destroyed a universe onscreen ovo
      Read this

      i'm

      i'm joking

      i'm not dumb

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    • For example. Zen’O is 2-C because of multiple statements + Future Zen’O feat. Not just Whis’ original statement. And yes this even goes for “possibly”. Possibly has always required more than just a single, off-handed statement.

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    • The in universe statements are reliable if the 2-C Verse still stand though. If Jiren is likely stronger than the Average GoD, and if Beerus is relative to that, and Broly is stated to be stronger than Beerus and is able to even be considered a threat on the same level as Jiren going by WoG statements. And is even able to last in a fight against Gogeta, who could arguably be superior to UI Goku by himself since, he is not a fusion, and was also stated by beerus to be vaguely stronger than him— Broly fighting without getting 1 shot, the statement seems to hold up given everything that happens and has been said.

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    • The whole argument of Casual Gogeta beating Broly is an assumption by itself, the novel never says Gogeta was holding back a portion of his power, it literally just describes what is happening in the movie and just that.

      There is just too much guess work in Gogeta's 2-C ranking.

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    • ProudLearner wrote:

      ZephyrosOmega wrote:
      Beerus actually only tops out at 3-C because he only destroyed a galaxy and never destroyed a universe onscreen ovo

      Read this

      He was joking.

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    • Pritti wrote: For example. Zen’O is 2-C because of multiple statements + Future Zen’O feat. Not just Whis’ original statement. And yes this even goes for “possibly”. Possibly has always required more than just a single, off-handed statement.

      Knocked it out the park yet again.

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    • Gogeta was absolutely shutting on Broly with a smile on his face the whole time, but I wish you guys didn’t scare Cryo off. He could better support that point then I.

      And, assuming Gogeta being casual is viable, there’s more than just one off statements supporting Broly being stronger than Beerus, who was absolutely dicked down by a smiling Gogeta.

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    • SSJ Gogeta was smiling the whole time despite Broly knocking him back and sometimes seemed in pain from Broly's hits. Not an argument

      You just assumed (again) that Gogeta wasn't trying becasue he was smiling.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      ProudLearner wrote:

      ZephyrosOmega wrote:
      Beerus actually only tops out at 3-C because he only destroyed a galaxy and never destroyed a universe onscreen ovo
      Read this
      He was joking.

      I know it just for others who may use this argument for downgrades. 

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    • Where did Ant ran off to, Isn't the highest mod here? Don't he have any saying on this? Lol this will never end it seems.

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    • Him being casual doesn’t necessarily matter inherently though, it being a mid diff fight wouid stil be enough for there to be the small 2x difference. And I would argue him getting hit a bit isn’t necessarily strong enough evidence to argue that the gap between Gogeta and Beerus is around 2x. It’s a good anoiunt of stuff to get a vague possibly.

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    • Sleeping. It’s almost 3 am where he’s at.

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    • The problem here though is people above were disagreeing with Beerus and Champas feat even being 2-C in the first place, which as a result is agreeing that the universes in dragon ball super arent seperate space-times. 

      Because if the universes are seperate space-times, then their feat of destroying U6 and U7 has to be 2-C. But if you disagree with it being 2-C, but 3-A instead, then you have to argue the universes sharing the same space-time in order to warrant that.

      Hence the huge cosmology debate above. 

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    • Again it's not. Broly being stronger than Beerus is not a fact only an assumption, and Gogeta used an uknown poration of his power during his power against Broly which make things even more vague.

      There is literally not objective evidence for Gogeta to be stronger than Beerus and Champa combined.

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