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  • I couldn't pass this match up I'm sorry. Red buff guys square off. Speed equalized.

    Knuckles the Echidna (Game Character)

    Buzzwole

    Knuckles the echidna by finnakira d7b6dsp-pre
    Ub 02 buzzwole by wyvernsmasher-dahxeod
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    • Well, um...

      Buzzwole does have the advantage in AP (debatably) and he does have plenty of ways he can boost his stats, plus a way to keep himself healthy as the match progresses and a resistance to Knuckles normal attacks if they count as fighting types.

      But I think Knuckles has plenty of hax to make up for it (negating status with the immunity idol, absorb life force with the nocturn blade, stun or knock Buzzwole off balance, heal himself with his own ability or various items, etc) plus he has Fire attacks to hit Buzzwole with his weakness an if the Wind attacks count as Flying types, then he can seriously put the hurt on Buzzwole, plus he has experience in dealing with opponents that outclass him...kinda.

      So...Knuckles I think Duno, maybe someone with better arguments can prove me wrong

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    • Knuckles FRA

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    • Knuckles FRA.

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    • Knuckles Outhaxes by a large amount

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    • Yeah, no optional equipment.

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    • Only two things that Ultimate said were part of optional equipment though, which was the immunity idol and the nocturnal blade

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    • Oh, I'm not discounting the votes of course. But I wanted this match to be between punchers and I don't want items to get in the middle of that.

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    • Knuckles also exceeds Buzzwole in intelligence and skill, and can attack him with the Spiral Upper where he can use to burn his opponents, Buzzwole is vulnerable to fire based attacks.

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    • Kay sorry, I didn't know items didn't count.

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    • Not your fault. I shoulda specified.

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    • Knuckles FRA

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    • Knuckles FRA! That's Six.

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    • UltimateFlare wrote:

      But I think Knuckles has plenty of hax to make up for it (negating status with the immunity idol, absorb life force with the nocturn blade, stun or knock Buzzwole off balance, heal himself with his own ability or various items, etc) plus he has Fire attacks to hit Buzzwole with his weakness an if the Wind attacks count as Flying types, then he can seriously put the hurt on Buzzwole, plus he has experience in dealing with opponents that outclass him...kinda.

      So...Knuckles I think Duno, maybe someone with better arguments can prove me wrong

      Before I get to what Buzzwole could do, im gonna reply to the stuff I bolded out. 

      Knuckles absorbing Buzzwoles life force and using self healing isnt as much of a win-condition as you say it is when Buzzwole can also do the same with his stingers (Cell style) and Leech Life, which can continiously drain life force out of Knuckles. That would also be a counter against fire and wind based moves. Speaking of that, Buzzwole can also reflect physical based attacks back at Knuckles using counter and it'll be 2x stronger. Now as for what Buzzwole could do here: 

      Besides what I already mentioned, Buzzwole has multiple ways of buffing up his stats, which will be very beneficial since he has the AP advantage here. He can use Power-Up Punch to constantly grow in AP for every hit, Bulk-Up to increase AP and Durability, and Harden to boost Durability. Using a combo of this will ensure that Knucles has a hard time damaging it, even with super effective moves. This is especially true since Buzzwole also has Endure to definitely ensure it takes any of at least 1 of Knuckles attacks. Along with having a major stat-boosting advantage, Buzzwole can stop Knuckles from using offensive based moves using Taunt, confuse Knuckles with Dynamic Punch, Status induce Knuckles with Thunder and Ice Punch and Increase its chances of landing critical blows with Focus Energy.

      Im gonna vote for Buzzwole. Knuckles only saving grace in this match is using super effective fire and debatably wind moves, which Buzzwole has ways around with its own life draining hax and can just reflect them with Counter at even higher levels. Buzzwole already has the AP advantage and has plenty of ways to buff its stats even further to make sure Knuckles cant damage him as easily. And even if he could, Endure will protect Buzzwole from one shots of any kind. Buzzwole can also always just stop Knuckles from damaging him via Taunt and can induce Knuckles with Status's on his own. Along with having higher chances of unleashing critical blows, Buzzwole should have no real problem winning this.

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    • Taunt does the exact opposite bro. It forces damaging moves only.

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    • Those life draining moves aren't really that good, they barely drain the life force, also it's Ap advantage is at best 1.2 times which isn't that much, especialy with Knuckles super efective attacks, Knuckles is also more skilled, he isn't going to fall to a conter.

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    • Actually Leech Life got buffed hard in G7.

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    • By how much?

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    • Went from Base 15 power to Base 80 power

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    • What does that mean to a outside pokemon match outside of gameplay?

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    • Oh absolutely nothing. I thought you were just calling the move weak is all.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Taunt does the exact opposite bro. It forces damaging moves only.

      Oh wait, thats Torment isnt it?

      Rookie mistake on my part lol. Still without Taunt, im gonna go with Buzzwole. Sitll more options to help him out.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Knuckles is also more skilled, he isn't going to fall to a conter.

      If Knuckles is more skilled, its only by a bit. Not as much as you make it out to be.

      Buzzwole is a fighting-type, making it naturally skilled in the martial arts and combat variety. To top it all off, it very can very easily outskill a combined group of pokemon, including Ash's Pikachu who has tons of fighting experience from all the regions Ash has visited and taken on with the mouse.

      Buzzwoles experience is not exactly just at 0.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Oh absolutely nothing. I thought you were just calling the move weak is all.

      Well the move was weak as far as I can remenber

      Also Knuckles can just dodge those moves via his superior skill and mobility, and the stat amps don't really help since Knuckles scales to unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons and the Maximun Heat Knuckles attack also boosts his stats

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      Theuser789 wrote:
      Knuckles is also more skilled, he isn't going to fall to a conter.

      If Knuckles is more skilled, its only by a bit. Not as much as you make it out to be.

      Buzzwole is a fighting-type, making it naturally skilled in the martial arts and combat variety. To top it all off, it very can very easily outskill a combined group of pokemon, including Ash's Pikachu who has tons of fighting experience from all the regions Ash has visited and taken on with the mouse.

      Buzzwoles experience is not exactly just at 0.

      Kunckles is a martial arts master and has fought beings with thousands of years of experience, way more than wild pokemon and Ash's Pikachu, especialy since his skill is very inconsistant at times

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    • Pretty sure Emerl was inactive for those 4000 years.

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    • No he wasn't fully inactive, that's on his profile

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    • >Can just dodge those moves

      Just as Buzzwole can dodge Knuckles attacks. Not much of a reason in itself.

      >Via his superior skill and mobility.

      Skill I already addressed. And mobility? Buzzwole can fly. 

      >And the stat amps dont really help much since Knuckes scales to to unquantifiable above 614 Z and the maximum heat Knuckles attack also boosts his stats

      And Buzzwole is comparable to mon who are comparable to mon who are superior to Perfect Zygarde, whos much stronger than Xerneas who does a 717 Zettaton feat just by dying. It'll definitely help, especially since Buzzwole has more stat amping methods than Knuckles does.

      Also, I forgot to mention that Buzzwole also has Spatial Manipulation too.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:

      Kunckles is a martial arts master and has fought beings with thousands of years of experience, way more than wild pokemon and Ash's Pikachu, especialy since his skill is very inconsistant at times

      Cal already addressed the thousands of years bit, but as for Pikachu, its inconsistent how?

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    • I did saw Knuckles profile listed Limited Time Manipulation in his profile, what ability is that? Since it doesn't mention an item.

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    • @UltimateFlare This maybe?

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote: >Can just dodge those moves

      Just as Buzzwole can dodge Knuckles attacks. Not much of a reason in itself.

      >Via his superior skill and mobility.

      Skill I already addressed. And mobility? Buzzwole can fly. 

      >And the stat amps dont really help much since Knuckes scales to to unquantifiable above 614 Z and the maximum heat Knuckles attack also boosts his stats

      And Buzzwole is comparable to mon who are comparable to mon who are superior to Perfect Zygarde, whos much stronger than Xerneas who does a 717 Zettaton feat just by dying. It'll definitely help, especially since Buzzwole has more stat amping methods than Knuckles does.

      Also, I forgot to mention that Buzzwole also has Spatial Manipulation too.

      Knuckles can dodge easier via being smaller, thus hadder to hit plus being more mobile, flight has nothing to do with how mobile you are

      I responded to the skill comment, it's what's stated on the profile:"Its personality is shaped by its interactions and the number of emeralds, very skilled combatant and avid learner through its copying ability. Possesses over 4,000 years of experience and weaponry at its disposal." Also you forgot about the martial arts master comment that proves his superior skills

      Pretty sure that the Ultra Beast aren't superior to Perfect Zygard, at all

      And Pikachu is inconsistant via losing plenty of battles that he should have won thanks to all these experiences, like how he lost to Snive( I think that's it's name)

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      • There is a glitch where by performing certain actions with certain characters while using the Time Stop Switches, it is possible to stop the flow of time indefinitely.
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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      Theuser789 wrote:

      Kunckles is a martial arts master and has fought beings with thousands of years of experience, way more than wild pokemon and Ash's Pikachu, especialy since his skill is very inconsistant at times

      Cal already addressed the thousands of years bit, but as for Pikachu, its inconsistent how?

      There’s also these people.

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    • I think that it's this move at the 2:10 mark:https://youtu.be/ZExQokYUuk8

      https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Power_Flash

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    • @Theuser789 That’s more like paralysis inducement rather than time stop.

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    • Yeah, it seems so, I don't really know where the time manipulation comes from then

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    • >Knuckles can dodge easier via being smaller, thus hadder to hit plus being more mobile, flight has nothing to do with how mobile you are.

      Flying makes it easier to avoid attacks. But anyway, being smaller wont help in the slightest. Pikachu is much smaller than Knuckles, the size of a small dog and Buzzwole was smacking it around casually.

      >I responded to the skill comment, it's what's stated on the profile:"Its personality is shaped by its interactions and the number of emeralds, very skilled combatant and avid learner through its copying ability. Possesses over 4,000 years of experience and weaponry at its disposal." Also you forgot about the martial arts master comment that proves his superior skills

      Most of this doesnt matter when its not even on Knuckles page under his intelligence. Knuckles page only makes him out to be somewhere above average in experience. Martial Arts i'll concede to, but again, Buzzwole is naturally skilled at that via its typing. Its experience is not at 0 to be completely toyed around with.

      >Pretty sure that the Ultra Beast aren't superior to Perfect Zygard, at all

      This is completely and utterly wrong, as of now anyway. The UB's are the strongest gen of legendaries right under the god tiers for the moment. Perfect Zygarde left the Kalos Region and came to Alola in order to try and fend them off since they pose a threat to all pokemon. P.Z. may be able to scale to them or even Necrozma in the future but as of now, he's not anything more than comparable to them.

      >And Pikachu is inconsistant via losing plenty of battles that he should have won thanks to all these experiences, like how he lost to Snive( I think that's it's name).

      For one, Pikachu was weakened by Zekrom when it lost against Snivy. Its power was reset.

      Second, losing a battle doesn't mean your experience is lower than anticipated, its only how you lose that does. Someone winning via just overpowering them is not at all the same as someone winning after matching someones fighting tactics in a full scale battle for instance.

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    • Pikachu is also way weaker than Buzzlord, so that's a terrible comparassion, they can't fight evenly at all, and Knuckles already fought fying oponents and beatten them, he also hss this move:https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Thunder_Arrow

      That's Emerl inteligence, someone that Knuckles fought against.

      Where it's said that they are stronger than Zygard? If Zygard went there to beat them then that implies that he's stronger than them, also the beasts scale to Zygard, not the contrary.

      Pikachu has worse examples then the ones I said and he wasn't overpowered in that fight so it's still a anti-feat for him, and most of Pikachu's startegies comes from Ash, also based on your logic Buzzlord doesn't scale to Ash's Pikachu skill since it beat him by overpowering it

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Pikachu is also way weaker than Buzzlord, so that's a terrible comparassion, they can't fight evenly at all, and Knuckles already fought fying oponents and beatten them, he also hss this move:https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Thunder_Arrow

      That's Emerl inteligence, someone that Knuckles fought against.

      Where it's said that they are stronger than Zygard? If Zygard went there to beat them then that implies that he's stronger than them, also the beasts scale to Zygard, not the contrary.

      Pikachu has worse examples then the ones I said and he wasn't overpowered in that fight so it's still a anti-feat for him, and most of Pikachu's startegies comes from Ash

      Ok, this Pikachu has beaten gods of the pokemon world, like latias, and regice. Just putting that out. Also, Buzwole could survive one attack and then use counter., and has the option to just spam while flying, though that is not as likely. Buzwole for these reasons and FRA.

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    • Flight isn’t really an advantage when Knuckles can glide mid-air.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Flight isn’t really an advantage when Knuckles can glide mid-air.

      And then Buzwole flies even higher.

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    • Pikachu isn't 5-B here, and pokemon can't spam a single move otherwise theh lose their PP, and Knuckles fought fying oponents before, thunder arrow could just take him out of the sky

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    • >Pikachu is also way weaker than Buzzlord, so that's a terrible comparassion

      What does that have to do with anything? Knuckles is weaker than Buzzwole too and It doesnt change the fact that Buzzowole can very easily hit small targets, weaker or not.

      >That's Emerl inteligence, someone that Knuckles fought against.

      Which isnt reflective off of Knuckles page at all atm.

      >Where it's said that they are stronger than Zygard? If Zygard went there to beat them then that implies that he's stronger than them, also the beasts scale to Zygard, not the contrary.

      The UB's in general were stated on many occasions to be beings who were a threat to all pokemon (barring the obvious exceptions), so much so that Zygarde saw fit for him to leave his home region and go to Alola to try and fend them off.

      Also, your confused. Zygarde hasnt taken on any Ultra Beasts yet, but only left Kalos and came to Alola in order to fend them off if the time comes to it. So far Zygarde hasnt taken on any UBs in an actual battle yet.

      >Pikachu has worse examples then the ones I said and he wasn't overpowered in that fight so it's still a anti-feat for him, and most of Pikachu's startegies comes from Ash

      Snivy defeated Pikachu by over-powering it. And Pikachu was overpowered because Zekrom heavily nerfed its strength. So no, its not anti feat.

      And Pikachu has shown on many occasions to fight on its own, it doesnt need Ash to tell it how to battle. It chooses to take advice from Ash because both are a team. Like all pokemon do. Pikachu isnt solely dependant on Ash. Besides, this still wouldnt change the fact that Buzzwole overcame the both of them and Ash's other companions.

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    • Theuser789
      Theuser789 removed this reply because:
      Double post
      23:28, June 20, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • It changes alot, Pikachu is both slower and weaker, also Buzzlord debately has a very small Ap advantage that's almost negible, especialy since Knuckles scales to unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons, Knuckles can simply dodge most of his moves and attack more than Buzzlord can, he also is more skilled than Ash's Pikachu

      Knuckles fought Emerl so he does have a skill gap, he also fought Sonic multiple times who does have that listed on his profile, as well as the examples that Shadow gave.

      Then they shouldn't even be 5-B, being a threat to all pokemon is a very vague statment that means almost nothing in terms of Ap since most pokemon already are below planet level, and nothing implies that they are stronger than Perfect Zygard at all so he doesn't have a overwhelming Al advantage, only that Zygard wanted to beat them, so they are at most 717 Zettatons, being generous that they could at least fight with him

      And as you said skill depends how the opponent has been defeated, did Buzzlord outskill them or just overpowered them and speedblitized?

      Anyways I am going to be busy for the next few hours, bye

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    • Dragonboi9191 wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Flight isn’t really an advantage when Knuckles can glide mid-air.

      And then Buzwole flies even higher.

      Or Knuckles uses thunder arrow

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Pikachu isn't 5-B here, and pokemon can't spam a single move otherwise theh lose their PP, and Knuckles fought fying oponents before, thunder arrow could just take him out of the sky

      I mean, he only needs to use counter once, considering Knuckles has enough AP to knock himself out if countered. Another thing, it says that "His attacks are readable as stated by Sonic and a little naive (trusts individuals like Eggman despite him tricking him many times) |" so his attacks might never connect with buzzwole, especialy if you count moves like swagger and Double team. Toxic can slowly down his health, and protect and roost can keep buzzwole in the battle for a huge amount of time.

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    • Knuckles already can take his own punches, he won't be knocked out by then, this is also if Buzzlord stats with counter.

      Also what does Buzzlord stats with, every pokemon match people always assume that they are gonna to use the perfect moves that counter their oponents

      Sonic is the one that finds his attacks readable, Sonic is faster than Knuckles and Buzzlord, and is cocky as well, Knuckles managed to stalemate Sonic multiple times even though Sonic finds his attacks readable

      Knuckles can also heal, he also has the wisps

      Knuckles resists poison, toxic will do nothing

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Knuckles already can take his own punches, he won't be knocked out by then, this is also if Buzzlord stats with counter.

      Also what does Buzzlord stats with, every pokemon match people always assume that they are gonna to use the perfect moves that counter their oponents

      (Ba dum tst) 

      Knuckles AP: Planet level to large planet level

      Knuckles Durability: See above.

      Thats twice his durability.

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    • Large planet level comes from his super form, Knuckles has the same durability as his attack power, his punches don't one-shoot him, there's need to be a 7.5 times diference

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Large planet level comes from his super form, Knuckles has the same durability as his attack power, his punches don't one-shoot him, there's need to be a 7.5 times diference

      Wait, his durability is the same as his attack power, but he needs to be hit harder than his durability. Also where are you getting 7.5 from?

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    • That's the oficial rules of this wikia, every human being doesn't get one-shoot by his own punches, the 7.5 times comes from the oficial rules.

      Also using your logic Knuckles can also one-shoot Buzzlord

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      That's the oficial rules of this wikia, every human being doesn't get one-shoot by his own punches, the 7.5 times comes from the oficial rules.

      Also using your logic Knuckles can also one-shoot Buzzlord

      The key word is human. This most likely dosn't apply to Echidnas and giant mosquitoes.

      And no, from my logic, Planet level attack canceled out by planet level durability.

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    • Knuckles works like a human body, animals also aren't one-shotted by their own attacks, Knuckles can also tank Sonic's attacks without getting one-shotted and he has the same Ap has him

      So Knuckles planet level attacks can cancel out Buzzlord durability, what I said is your logic

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    • Im going to be busy too so i'll be back in a bit with counters.

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    • The vote count is 6-2 for Knuckles

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    • Knux FRA

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Knuckles works like a human body, animals also aren't one-shotted by their own attacks, Knuckles can also tank Sonic's attacks without getting one-shotted and he has the same Ap has him

      So Knuckles planet level attacks can cancel out Buzzlord durability, what I said is your logic

      "Knuckles works like a human body, animals also aren't one-shotted by their own attacks, " Just read over that for a second. Knuckles only realy shares a few things in common with Humans

      And if you read what I said above, I said "And no, from my logic, Planet level attack canceled out by planet level durability." and not the other way around. Also, Buzzwole still has the option of protect and other stat boosters to raise defense and other statistics.

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    • Grace stated for Knuckles

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    • Knuckles: 9 (Theuser789, ShadowWarrior1999, Hiryu-Z, HenryWong122, GlaceonGamez471, VioletVoid100, Godhand1999, ShakeResounding, Blueblur24)

      Buzzwole: 9 (ProfessorKukui4Life, Dragonboi9191, TheArsenal1212, ChosenOrDeath, TriforcePower1, Abstractions, UltimateFlare, RotofBots, Everything12)

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    • “Sonic is faster than Knuckles and Buzzlord

      Bruh you’re combining two different Ultra Beasts. Two, Buzzwole’s faster than even Super Sonic dude.

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    • Buzzlord FRA. Reasoning sounds better tbh

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    • Buzzlord FRA

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    • Giant Mosquito FRA

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    • 7-5 Grace is over

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    • I'm going to have to side with Guzzwole here.

      Leech Life will continuously gain more power as the fight goes on because of its amps, meaning the Buzzlord is only going to get more durable, stronger, and will be healthier the more the fight goes on. Add onto Taunt forcing a direct approach from Knuckles in coordination with Counter, it makes it pretty clear as to who has the better odds here.

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    • 7-6 now

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      “Sonic is faster than Knuckles and Buzzlord

      Bruh you’re combining two different Ultra Beasts. Two, Buzzwole’s faster than even Super Sonic dude.

      How fast is Buzzwole?

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    • Also switching vote to Buzzwole.

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    • 7-6 Buzzwole now

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    • TheArsenal1212 wrote:
      7-6 Buzzwole now

      I think you mean 7-7.

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    • He switched didn’t he?

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    • The 7th vote for Buzzwole is from Flare.

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    • I look away for one hour and suddenly my side is winning. Am I that bad at arguing?

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    • Also, "Leech Life" drains the targets BLOOD not the actual life energy of the opponent

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    • Knuckles FRA

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      UltimateFlare wrote:

      But I think Knuckles has plenty of hax to make up for it (negating status with the immunity idol, absorb life force with the nocturn blade, stun or knock Buzzwole off balance, heal himself with his own ability or various items, etc) plus he has Fire attacks to hit Buzzwole with his weakness an if the Wind attacks count as Flying types, then he can seriously put the hurt on Buzzwole, plus he has experience in dealing with opponents that outclass him...kinda.

      So...Knuckles I think Duno, maybe someone with better arguments can prove me wrong

      Before I get to what Buzzwole could do, im gonna reply to the stuff I bolded out. 

      Knuckles absorbing Buzzwoles life force and using self healing isnt as much of a win-condition as you say it is when Buzzwole can also do the same with his stingers (Cell style) and Leech Life, which can continiously drain life force out of Knuckles. That would also be a counter against fire and wind based moves. Speaking of that, Buzzwole can also reflect physical based attacks back at Knuckles using counter and it'll be 2x stronger. Now as for what Buzzwole could do here: 

      Besides what I already mentioned, Buzzwole has multiple ways of buffing up his stats, which will be very beneficial since he has the AP advantage here. He can use Power-Up Punch to constantly grow in AP for every hit, Bulk-Up to increase AP and Durability, and Harden to boost Durability. Using a combo of this will ensure that Knucles has a hard time damaging it, even with super effective moves. This is especially true since Buzzwole also has Endure to definitely ensure it takes any of at least 1 of Knuckles attacks. Along with having a major stat-boosting advantage, Buzzwole can stop Knuckles from using offensive based moves using Taunt, confuse Knuckles with Dynamic Punch, Status induce Knuckles with Thunder and Ice Punch and Increase its chances of landing critical blows with Focus Energy.

      Im gonna vote for Buzzwole. Knuckles only saving grace in this match is using super effective fire and debatably wind moves, which Buzzwole has ways around with its own life draining hax and can just reflect them with Counter at even higher levels. Buzzwole already has the AP advantage and has plenty of ways to buff its stats even further to make sure Knuckles cant damage him as easily. And even if he could, Endure will protect Buzzwole from one shots of any kind. Buzzwole can also always just stop Knuckles from damaging him via Taunt and can induce Knuckles with Status's on his own. Along with having higher chances of unleashing critical blows, Buzzwole should have no real problem winning this.

      You're assuming Knuckles would get easily hit by all these different abilities and techiques from Buzzwole. Knuckles could forumlate strategies like creating after images, digging into the ground to avoid attacks, or become invisbile via Jade Ghost. Knuckles could dig into the ground and could attack with "uppercut" which negates durability. Knuckles could also punch the ground hard enough to create a shock wave that disorientates, dizzies opponents, or causes a small volcanic eruption. So, Buzzwole isn't the only one that can hit people to the point of confusing them. Knuckles's attack I think is more effective since he can use the shockwave to disorientate Buzzwhole and one shot him with "uppercut" or even better...Use one of the Color Powers to kill him completely. He could also use his Nocturnal Blade to use his own Life-Absorption abilities on Buzzwole.

      I'm sorry, but I don't see how Buzzwole can win when Knuckles has so many abilities to choose from and more variety in his techiques. Knuckles is also smarter, since he's a martial arts master and fought many skilled combatants like Sonic. Buzzwole seems to be about average or not very smart, unless you could prove otherwise. 

      Knuckles wins for being smarter, more variety in techiques, and therefore since he has more powers he's got plenty of more ways to win. 

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    • Radical Resident Khan wrote:
      Also, "Leech Life" drains the targets BLOOD not the actual life energy of the opponent

      For one, Leech Life has drained the energy of the opponent before. The anime shows this. 

      Two, it really doesnt matter if it drains life or blood. It'll reach the same result with Buzzwole being constantly healed.

      Three, you act as if Leech Life is the only method Buzzwole has of healing itself. Its stingers say hello.

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    • >You're assuming Knuckles would get easily hit by all these different abilities and techiques from Buzzwole.

      No more than you assuming Buzzwole would easily get hit by Knuckles techniques as well.

      > Knuckles could forumlate strategies like creating after images, digging into the ground to avoid attacks, or become invisbile via Jade Ghost.

      The first 2 points are just completely useless. Invisibility would be the only thing that would be useful and this is assuming Knuckles will use this early enough before Buzzwole can gain an edge.

      >Knuckles could dig into the ground and could attack with "uppercut" which negates durability. Knuckles could also punch the ground hard enough to create a shock wave that disorientates, dizzies opponents, or causes a small volcanic eruption.

      All of this is useless too. Buzzwole has flight so all of this "digging into the grounds" strategies are not gonna be useful here in the slightest.

      > Knuckles's attack I think is more effective since he can use the shockwave to disorientate Buzzwhole and one shot him with "uppercut"

      Not only is this useless, but Buzzwole has the AP advantage from the start and has more ways of buffing its stats than Knuckles does. One of which, Power Up Punch, will constantly increase Buzzwoles AP for every hit. He isnt one-shotting.

      >Use one of the Color Powers to kill him completely. He could also use his Nocturnal Blade to use his own Life-Absorption abilities on Buzzwole.

      Which power? And how likely is it that Knuckles will use the one specific one that would actually give him an advantage? And as for Nocturnal Blade, this was already brought up and I countered it with Buzzwole having its own life-absorbing abilities.

      >I'm sorry, but I don't see how Buzzwole can win when Knuckles has so many abilities to choose from and more variety in his techiques.

      Knuckles is more versatile yes, but it comes down to whether or not Knuckles will decide to use the right abilities early on.

      >Knuckles is also smarter, since he's a martial arts master and fought many skilled combatants like Sonic. Buzzwole seems to be about average or not very smart, unless you could prove otherwise.

      I already addressed this too. Buzzwole is a fighting type so its already naturally adept at the martial arts combat variety. Buzzwole has also not only made quick short work of well trained experienced pokemon like Ash's Pikachu, it's also comparable to the likes of the Tapu guardians who are very experienced in themselves for being able to train other pokemon and even fight the legendary mon Solgaleo and Lunala in a long drawn out battle. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence (which I can accept) but definitely not as much as people are making it out to be. It's not some mindless creature that can be toyed with easily.

      Still keeping my vote with Buzzwole as before.

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    • Didn’t I say no optional equipment? Why’s the Nocturne Blade being brought up still?

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    • Wait, Nocturne Blade is just optional equipment? So he doesnt even have it here at all?

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    • Switching to Buzzwole fra

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    • Buzzy FRA

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    • The wisps are something that Knuckles will use in character though, he used them plenty in Runners and was the one that gave wispons to the Oc.

      Knuckles was also a war general as well, so he definaly has a inteligence advantage, you still have to explain if Buzzlord actualy outskilled Pikachu or if him simply speedblitized and overpowered him, you yourself said that was a diference between that

      Buzzlord barely has a AP advantage, meanwhile Knuckles is unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons, Buzzlord is not as strong as you think in this matchup, what does he start in character? Because you are assuming that he will use the right moves to beat Knuckles even though he has no experience on fighting a being like Knuckles

      Every time that he's using a wisp power-up he's invulnarable, there's also the invencinbility monitor as well, and the fire shield and thunder shield can negate Buzzlord elemental attacks as well, and as show in Mania ice is inefective, Knuckles is resistant to extreme cold

      And Knuckles resists poison and chemical products, so Buzzwole toxic or lech life are useless against Knuckles

      And godhand is right that uppercut will work, that move negates durability so it can definaly one-shoot:Durability Negation (With Uppercut)

      Anyways I still vote for Knuckles, most of Buzzwole reasons are that he will use the exact moves that will beat Knuckles with nothing indicating that he will use them in character especialy since he doesn't have prior knowledge, meanwhile Knuckles has more experience and skill to use the right moves to finish the fight, especialy since he's used to making strategies due to being the leader of the resistance, and Knuckles resists most of Buzzwole efective moves plus he can hit him with his weakeness to fire and wind, as well as the wisps to close the gap or give him invulnerability, power flash to stun him for 10 seconds and the shields to give him imunity to Buzzwole elemental attacks and uppercut to one-shoot since that move negates durability, also thunder arrow to hit him out of the sky

      The only win-con is he using moves to stat boost him and counter, and if he uses this Knuckles simply can use either power flash or thunder arrow and the wisps, but nothing implies that Buzzwole is going to use that strategy against a unknow enemy, especialy since Knuckles is more versatile, is smarter, is skilled, and makes more strategies on the fly like show in Forces, most of the resons for Buzzwole are wrong or invalid

      Kunckles can also just heal himself with Knuckles heal or use the wisps and the invencinbility monitor to counter his life draining moves, also nothing indicates that Buzzwole is going to use them as effectively as you imply, even if he uses those moves Knuckles simply can retreate and use the wisps, thunder arrow or power flash.

      The Tapus are nowhere as skilled as Knuckles, he fought beings with thousands of years of experience and is a martial arts master and has lead a army which requeries making plenty of strategies, none that Buzzwole has

      Also Jade Ghost makes Knuckles non-corporeal as well as invisible, and Buzzwole doesn't have non-physical interaction, so Knuckles could simply use it when Buzzwole starts to stat amp himself, use counter or his life-draining moves, Knuckles has a answer to almost every move of Buzzwole, plus his skill and inteligence advantage gives him the win

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    • Buzzwole FRA

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    • I think that it is 10-7 for Buzzwole, so grace

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    • 7-10 for Buzzwole, it's grace. I would like if people read my posts explaining that Buzzwole win-con are way smaller than Knuckles and also more unlikely to happen, Knuckles has a answer to everything Buzzwole can do

      8-10 now.

      9-10 now

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    • If there's only a difference of three or less, then it ends up as inconclusive rather than a win/loss. That said, Knuckles FRA.

      While Knuckles is an absolute dunce and kind of a moron, he's proven himself as a capable fighter and leader/strategist. While it was a losing battle, he lead the resistance for months on end and has at least some decent tactical capacity. He isn't a mindless brute who will tank everything because he can, he's going play it "smart" (if you can call it that, ha). He was capable of fighting toe-to-toe with Sonic for a reason.

      Also, Knuckles isn't a sitting duck on the ground. If this is NYC by SBA and Knuckles can't even land a good hit in, he isn't gonna just sit there. Gliding is his thing, so of course he's gonna try and adapt by getting into a position where he can glide. Especially when his opponent is flying above him and out of reach like a mosquito (No offense to Buzzwole lol).

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      If there's only a difference of three or less, then it ends up as inconclusive rather than a win/loss. That said, Knuckles FRA.

      While Knuckles is an absolute dunce and kind of a moron, he's proven himself as a capable fighter and leader/strategist. While it was a losing battle, he lead the resistance for months on end and has at least some decent tactical capacity. He isn't a mindless brute who will tank everything because he can, he's going play it "smart" (if you can call it that, ha). He was capable of fighting toe-to-toe with Sonic for a reason.

      Also, Knuckles isn't a sitting duck on the ground. If this is NYC by SBA and Knuckles can't even land a good hit in, he isn't gonna just sit there. Gliding is his thing, so of course he's gonna try and adapt by getting into a position where he can glide. Especially when his opponent is flying above him and out of reach like a mosquito (No offense to Buzzwole lol).

      You underestimate mosquito, regular mosquito beat One punch man making him tier -1

      Seriosly though, how is he going to hit the bug when he spams double team? Gods have trouble with hitting anything with double team and swagger makes things worse.

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    • Thunder Arrow doesn't miss, also Power Flash to paralise him for 10 seconds

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    • I mean, once he gets hit by Power Flash once he's gonna use Taunt and goodbye to that.

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    • But he will be frozen for 10 seconds before he can use any move, he would taunt only after those 10 seconds where Knuckles can hit him freely, he could just beat him in those, especialy since uppercut negates durability

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    • >Knuckles was also a war general as well, so he definaly has a inteligence advantage, you still have to explain if Buzzlord actualy outskilled Pikachu or if him simply speedblitized and overpowered him, you yourself said that was a diference between that

      While this is good, this is not exactly impressive in terms of being in combat yourself. Being a war general is no different than being a pokemon trainer, your just shouting directions. Shouting directions and then using those strategies for yourself while your battling mid combat are 2 different things. Thats like saying Ash is a combat expert since he can plan and give strategies to the ones who can actually perform them, his pokemon.

      And yes, Buzzwole outskilled Pikachu. Every attack Pikachu made against Buzzwole, Buzzwole simply dodged and smacked him away. He didnt just overpower and one shot from the start.

      >Buzzlord barely has a AP advantage, meanwhile Knuckles is unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons, Buzzlord is not as strong as you think in this matchup, what does he start in character? Because you are assuming that he will use the right moves to beat Knuckles even though he has no experience on fighting a being like Knuckles

      For one, Buzzwole doesnt have an in-character mindset since he only has, like, one actual appearance. Two, Buzzwoles arsenal is far smaller than Knuckles so this isnt the same thing. Buzzwole will be more likely to use the moves that would benefit it due to having limited versatility. And three, its not just about having an AP advantage but also having multiple ways to keep having the AP advantage. Buzzwole has multiple ways of buffing stats, one which can do it constantly, while Knuckles only has 1 method and thats from an attack.

      >Every time that he's using a wisp power-up he's invulnarable, there's also the invencinbility monitor as well, and the fire shield and thunder shield can negate Buzzlord elemental attacks as well, and as show in Mania ice is inefective, Knuckles is resistant to extreme cold

      Against a being stronger than him? Yeah im calling NLF on that invulnerability. The fire and thunder shields wont work since not only does Buzzwole not have a fire move, but Buzzwole's elemental attacks are physical ones. Even if the elemental aspect is negated, the punch isnt. And with higher AP, Buzzwole will simply smash through them with sheer force. Also, resistance to extreme cold =/= being resistant to freezing, which Ice Punch can induce as a status.

      Not to mention Paralysis from Thunder Punch too, which will be extremely bad if Knuckles gets paralyzed here.

      >And Knuckles resists poison and chemical products, so Buzzwole toxic or lech life are useless against Knuckles.

      Buzzwole doesnt have Toxic as a move and his life draining abilities are not poison or chemical based, so this is just completely irrelevant.

      >And godhand is right that uppercut will work, that move negates durability so it can definaly one-shoot:Durability Negation (With Uppercut)

      Except he isnt right since that move is done by Knuckles first digging into the ground to use it. Buzzwole flies, so that move will be completely useless. Also, Uppercut means that its a physical move, which Buzzwole can again reflect right back at Knuckles using Counter. So even if Knuckles was able to somehow hit Buzzwole with it, it wont do anything.

      >Anyways I still vote for Knuckles, most of Buzzwole reasons are that he will use the exact moves that will beat Knuckles with nothing indicating that he will use them in character especialy since he doesn't have prior knowledge, meanwhile Knuckles has more experience and skill to use the right moves to finish the fight.

      See above. Also, its absolutely false that you think Knuckles will use the moves that will benefit him before Buzzwole does. He mas a much bigger arsenal in versatility, so that means the likelyhood of using those abilities early on is much lower. Its like looking in a pile of junk for one thing that you like, especially since Knuckles also doesnt have prior knowledge of Buzzwole.

      >especialy since he's used to making strategies due to being the leader of the resistance, and Knuckles resists most of Buzzwole efective moves plus he can hit him with his weakeness to fire and wind, as well as the wisps to close the gap or give him invulnerability, power flash to stun him for 10 seconds and the shields to give him imunity to Buzzwole elemental attacks and uppercut to one-shoot since that move negates durability, also thunder arrow to hit him out of the sky

      Already addressed all of this, so see above for this too.

      >The Tapus are nowhere as skilled as Knuckles, he fought beings with thousands of years of experience and is a martial arts master and has lead a army which requeries making plenty of strategies, none that Buzzwole has

      And so are the Tapu, whove also existed for thousands of years since Alola first came to be and ever since, have branded the Alola region with people Z-rings and Z-moves who are worthy and skilled enough to have them. They have also trained other skilled pokemon like Tapu Koko training Ash's Pikachu in multiple encounters. Adding to that, the Tapu have still battled against Solgaleo and Lunala (not to mention Necrozma as well), beings from other universes like all the UBs are.

      Being a martial arts master, again, is irrelevant against someone whos naturally a master at that via its typing. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence, but only by a bit. He's not getting easily outsmarted as you make it out to be.

      >Also Jade Ghost makes Knuckles non-corporeal as well as invisible, and Buzzwole doesn't have non-physical interaction

      Wrong, all Pokemon in the verse in general have non-physical interaction via interacting with ghost types. This has been accepted for quite a while now, just hasnt been updated to all the pages.

      Also, Knuckles doesnt have Non-Corporeality on his page either, so this doesnt matter.

      Still voting for Buzzwole.

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    • Knuckles fra

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    • Knuckles fought with his army, unlike Ash, so that's a bad comparassion. Dodging attacks is not outskilling someone, he just used his massive speed advantage, then his Ap advantage, that's not outskilling someone.

      Then you can't say that Buzzwole will use the right moves, use what he did in his mindset when he fought, he still fought one time use that don't expect him to know the right moves or strategies, you need to prove that he will use them agaisnt a unknow enemy.

      Buzzwole doesn't have that much of a AP advantage, it's only at best 1.2 times and Knuckles can't die when using a wisp, it's not a NLF when he's barely stronger when it becomes negible. Knuckles can break of ice in one second as proven in the Heavy Shinobi fight, and being frozen doesn't hurt him as proven in Mania, the elemental attacks will still be inefective and Buzzwole is barely stronger, and the Thunder Shield negates all eletrick tipe attacks which will include paralisys.

      Knuckles is smatter, he will realise whichoves are better due to his experience in fighting, especialy since you implied that Buzzwole only fought once, Knuckles can just choose the better option, you haven't proved that Buzzwole will do the same, you can't just make assumptions that he will choose the right strategy because of his smaller arsenal.

      Has Buzzwole fought and outskilled the Tapus so that you can scale them? You need proof not just assumptions

      Because the efects of Jade Ghost hadn't been update on the profiles, but they indeed are non-corporeal

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    • >Knuckles fought with his army, unlike Ash, so that's a bad comparassion.

      As in Knuckles fighting alongside them mid-combat and not standing in the back shouting directions and what to do? Because thats not what a General does.

      >Dodging attacks is not outskilling someone, he just used his massive speed advantage, then his Ap advantage, that's not outskilling someone.

      It very much is so when the one whos getting fodderized, Pikachu, is unable to do a single thing to him despite the years of experience it has from all the Regions Ash has visited.

      >Then you can't say that Buzzwole will use the right moves, use what he did in his mindset when he fought, he still fought one time use that don't expect him to know the right moves or strategies, you need to prove that he will use them agaisnt a unknow enemy.

      Thats not how in-character works and it would be very unfair to do so. Buzzwole's only real shown appearance in battle is him easily beating fodder to the point where he doesnt even need to use any actual attacks to beat them. Your point would be more solid if he was fighting against someone whos actually on his level of stats.

      That said, Buzzwole in the same episode was shown to spam it's stingers life absorbing hax to absorb other mon's life energy, so this would be a start if nothing else would be in-character. That, or his stat buffs since they are all fighting-type moves, which is Buzzwole's natural typing.

      >Buzzwole doesn't have that much of a AP advantage, it's only at best 1.2 times and Knuckles can't die when using a wisp, it's not a NLF when he's barely stronger when it becomes negible.

      If there's no evidence of the Invulnerability lasting against stronger beings then yes its an NLF no matter whether the gap is big or small. Buzzwole at the end of the day is still starting this match out stronger than Knuckles. Simple as that.

      >Knuckles can break of ice in one second as proven in the Heavy Shinobi fight, and being frozen doesn't hurt him as proven in Mania

      This is only the case if the ice is comparable to Buzzwoles. An ice inducement from a 5-B is pretty much going to be very much harder to deal with.

      >the elemental attacks will still be inefective and Buzzwole is barely stronger, and the Thunder Shield negates all eletrick tipe attacks which will include paralisys.

      But the punches wont be. So Buzzwole smashes through the shield with a punch, even if the elemental aspects are negated.

      >Knuckles is smatter, he will realise whichoves are better due to his experience in fighting, especialy since you implied that Buzzwole only fought once

      He didnt fight "only once", but was only shown to fight only once on screen. There's a difference.

      >you can't just make assumptions that he will choose the right strategy because of his smaller arsenal.

      But I most definitely can say that Buzzwole will use the moves that it will benefit it much sooner than Knuckles will. Because of having a smaller arsenal, Buzzwoles options are limited so there's only so much for it to choose from and actually do. He wont beat around the bush but get right to the punch. Knuckles on the other hand has so many more things in versalilty, its like finding a needle in a hay stack when it comes to choosing a move to use. He has many more options, which will make him less likely to choose the specific abilities that will benefit him the most right away. Buzzwole's arsenal is simple and straight forward, while Knuckles arsenal is not.

      >Has Buzzwole fought and outskilled the Tapus so that you can scale them? You need proof not just assumptions

      Yes. While it was off-screen, Buzzwole takes on the Tapu's in the game. When Buzzwole and other Ultra Beasts come to Alola, the Tapu's immediately come to Alola's defense to battle them.

      Besides, an Ultra Beast in general are regarded as threats to all Pokemon, so that would make them pretty hard to deal with in combat right there.

      >Because the efects of Jade Ghost hadn't been update on the profiles, but they indeed are non-corporeal

      Fair here i'll say.

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    • Yes, Knuckles did fight with them mid-combat plenty of times.

      Pikachu can't do anything because Buzzwole is literaly thousands of times faster than him, that's gotta nothing to do with skill, he simply overpowered and speedblitized here.

      Life-hax is counterd by Power Flash and the wisps. And it isn't unfair, you need to prove that he will use those right attacks, not just make assumptions.

      The invunerability does work on stronger beings, and Buzzwole might not even have a AP advantage because Knuckles is already unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons.

      Knuckles could tank those attacks from a low-6-B when he also was that tier, since he got stronger so did his ice imunity.

      Having a smaller arsenal doesn't mean that he will choose the right strategy or moves, that assumes that he's going to use a diferent move everytime he attacks until he finds the right one, you need to prove that in Buzz character to keep using diferent moves until one works, and Knuckles knows what moves he has and what they do, he knows which moves are better for each situation, the size of a arsenal is literaly irrelevant when Knuckles knows which moves he has and can use, the characters don't act like slot machines until they use the right move, they will use what they do in character first, and from what you said is physical attacks and life draining attacks, and Uppercut will work since Knuckles can hit him out of the sky with thunder arrow and power flash, and then use that move

      Being a threat to all pokemon is a increlible vague statment that can mean many things, it does not mean anything about skill.

      And Knuckles will use the better moves due to his skill, inteligence, and strategy advantage that Buzzwole doesn't have, they aren't gonna to pick moves until they find the right ones, that's not how it works at all, what determines that is the ability to make strategies, to know which moves are better for each situation, in which Knuckles is better

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    • Just in case anyone forgot, the Planet level feat Pokemon has was done by Xerneas at near death, so they're also unquantifiable above it as well.

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    • "Having a smaller arsenal doesn't mean that he will choose the right strategy or moves, that assumes that he's going to use a diferent move everytime he attacks until he finds the right one, you need to prove that in Buzz character to keep using diferent moves until one works, and Knuckles knows what moves he has and what they do, he knows which moves are better for each situation, the size of a arsenal is literaly irrelevant when Knuckles knows which moves he has and can use, the characters don't act like slot machines until they use the right move, they will use what they do in character first, and from what you said is physical attacks and life draining attacks, and Uppercut will work since Knuckles can hit him out of the sky with thunder arrow and power flash, and then use that move"

      Well, if a move dosn't do anything, he just uses something different. Its common sense that you don't just do the samething over and over again to something that resists it. While he will start with life draining and punching moves, he can just switch to things like ice puch, or thunder punch, wich are still punches. As for the electricity, when fly is used, thunder, thunderbolt, etc all miss when used despite being shown to come out of the sky.

      "Being a threat to all pokemon is a increlible vague statment that can mean many things, it does not mean anything about skill."

      It means that it has enough either sheer power or skill to pose a threat to all pokemon. It can be interprited either way.

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    • Also, Cal said this was down to their natural abilities, so no items.

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    • Except that they will work, Knuckles doesn't resist draining, it's just that Knuckles can counter that, and Knuckles resists ice as I explained and the eletric shield negates eletrecity, and this isn't a pokemon battle, thunder arrow can attack fying opponents. He isn't going to switch until he finds the perfect strategy especialy since Knuckles is smarter. My argument is that Buzzwole won't use the right moves with the right strategies to beat Knuckles when he doesn't know him, meanwhile Knuckles can because of his greater inteligence and experience in making startegies in Forces

      That statment has nothing to do with skill, being MFTL and 5-B is already a threat to all pokemon when most aren't 5-B and below the speed of light

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    • UltimateFlare wrote:
      Also, Cal said this was down to their natural abilities, so no items.

      No optional equipment, what I said is standard equipment

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    • >Pikachu can't do anything because Buzzwole is literaly thousands of times faster than him, that's gotta nothing to do with skill, he simply overpowered and speedblitized here.

      And if Buzzwole immediately blitzed and one shotted Pikachu instead of easily keeping up with, avoiding and smacking away Pikachus and its attacks, i'd be more inclined to agree with you. But that's not what happened.

      >Life-hax is counterd by Power Flash and the wisps. And it isn't unfair, you need to prove that he will use those right attacks, not just make assumptions

      Power Flash only paralyzes for 10 seconds, it doesnt stop life hax. And the wisps are something Knuckles will not immediately go for as already pointed out.

      And yes, using the only on-screen battle appearance of Buzzwole battling where its facing and stomping beings who are fodder to it casually as a means of in-character status is very unfair because its not a real depiction of Buzzwole's battling capabilities. Had he been fighting another Ultra Beast and did the same thing, i'd agree with you. But against a regular pokemon? I dont think so.

      >The invunerability does work on stronger beings, and Buzzwole might not even have a AP advantage because Knuckles is already unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons.

      Evidence of it working on stronger beings? And what? Unquantifiably being above 614 Z is vs someone whos comparable to mon that are comparable to mon who are => Perfect Zygarde, whos much stronger than Yveltal and Xerneas, the latter who did a 717 Z feat while dying isnt showing a clear AP advantage?

      >Knuckles could tank those attacks from a low-6-B when he also was that tier, since he got stronger so did his ice imunity.

      Resistance, not immunity. And im pretty sure thats not how resistance works but I could be wrong about how ice resistance is treated here.

      >Having a smaller arsenal doesn't mean that he will choose the right strategy or moves, that assumes that he's going to use a diferent move everytime he attacks until he finds the right one

      For one, most of the moves that will help Buzzwole here are fighting type ones, which is its natural typing. So the likelyhood of it not choosing those moves is extremely unlikely.

      Two, having a smaller arsenal does mean that Buzzwole will go for those moves. Buzzwole will clearly not use the same move more than once if its not going to work the first time, as thats common sense. Again, Buzzwole does not have as many options to choose from as Knuckles does in terms of move selection, so there's 0 reason why Buzzwole will not go for a benefical move. At least not before Knuckles does. One has a straight forward arsenal while the other has one thats much more complicated and diverse. Saying Knuckles will immediately go for one of the few moves that can gain an edge over Buzzwole is ridculous while in Buzzwoles case the moves that will help against Knuckles are pretty much the only moves it has.

      >and Knuckles knows what moves he has and what they do, he knows which moves are better for each situation, the size of a arsenal is literaly irrelevant when Knuckles knows which moves he has and can use


      And you act like Buzzwole doesnt know what moves it has or can use too. Neither one has any info on each other before this match, so there's no way that either one will know what will do best against the other immediately.

      But the factor that comes down to this is the options to choose from. Buzzwole has much fewer options than Knuckles and most of its arsenal will help against Knuckles since its mostly stat buffing, punching moves and physical attack reflection. Thats the gist of what Buzzwole can do, so Buzzwole is much more likely to use those moves before Knuckles can use his. Knuckles may have moves that will work, but he has too big of an arsenal to narrow down whats going to work the best and immediately use it.

      >and Uppercut will work since Knuckles can hit him out of the sky with thunder arrow and power flash, and then use that move

      And again, your still acting like Buzzwole wont just dodge those attacks or even worse just reflect Uppercut back at Knuckles using Counter.

      >"Being a threat to all pokemon is a increlible vague statment that can mean many things, it does not mean anything about skill."

      Someone already addressed this but even so, the UBs were a big enough threat to where the strongest of the non-Ultra Beast 5-B mon, Perfect Zygarde, had to leave Kalos and come to Alola, a foreign region. Plus, legendaries in themselves are very skilled and experienced pokemon so being a threat to them would be saying something about the skills of the threatener. I'll be back later to address any more rebuttals.

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    • But that still isn't skill, dodging attacks from someone thousands of times slower than you isn't skill

      10 to 20 seconds, and it's plenty enough of time, and you can't just make up what Buzzwole can do, even with fewer appereances you still use what's in character, I could just say the same and say that Knuckles will imediately use Power Flash and Indigo asteiroid with this logic of making stuff up for what they can do in character since Knuckles hasn't fought much in the modern era .

      They never fought Zygard, for all we know he could stomp them, so we can't say that they are comparable, and it works on Chaos 6 and Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia if you use them.

      I was wrong, it's imunity, the ice attacks don't harm Knuckles.

      It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them, they aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them, meanwhile Knuckles greater inteligence and making strategies will know when to use his moves, also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole.

      Knuckles will know when to use his moves depending on the situation thanks to he's greater skill, inteligence and ability to make better strategies on the times he was the commander of the resistance,if he's being drained he can use Power Flash to stun him, if he's being countered he can use the wisps and Thunder Arrow and if he's using stat boosts he can use Power Flash or the wisps, or if he heals he can just use Violet Void and Indigo Asteiroid to make sure he doesn't again, Knuckles greater arsenal just means that he has more responses to what Buzzwole can do, and Knuckles is used to dealing with many choices since he lead a army

      Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash

      Zygard coming to fight them is still vague, he could just think that nobody in Alola can defeat them and come to help save the pokemon before they cause some trouble, as I said Zygard could in the future one-shoot them, that statment is too vague and has nothing on skill since being he's already a threat via being faster and stronger than most pokemon

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    • Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash

      Thunder arrow is undodgeble

      (See the falacy?)

      Buzwole has dodged undogable attacks like smart strike using moves like fly. This should be no different.

      It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them, they aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them, meanwhile Knuckles greater inteligence and making strategies will know when to use his moves, also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole.

      Wait, they do use moves that are more effective, battling them makes them use the move that is best against you, or the one that has the most effect.

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    • This isn't a pokemon battle, thunder arrow can hit flying oponents, it has done so multiple times, those moves aren't undodgeble since they can't hit flying oponents, unlike thunder arrow

      That's you choosing those moves in the game, not the pokemon by itself, again this isn't a pokemon battle, you would need to prove it that he would do that in character, I can say the same that Knuckles will use Power Flash and then imediately use Violet Void since it's the most efective

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    • The next time someone says, "No optional equipment" the OP NEEDS to specify "no optional equipment" because all I see is "Knuckles vs Buzzwole. Speed Equalized" in the OP. Nothing says that the characters can't use "optional equpiment" lol. 

      Either way, it doesn't matter now. Knuckles has access to every ability in his arsenal, I still can't see Buzzwole winning this. Let's get back to some of these responses.

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    • Knuckles used fire punch, it's super effective, critical hit, buzzwole faints FRA

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote: >You're assuming Knuckles would get easily hit by all these different abilities and techiques from Buzzwole.

      No more than you assuming Buzzwole would easily get hit by Knuckles techniques as well.

      > Knuckles could forumlate strategies like creating after images, digging into the ground to avoid attacks, or become invisbile via Jade Ghost.

      The first 2 points are just completely useless. Invisibility would be the only thing that would be useful and this is assuming Knuckles will use this early enough before Buzzwole can gain an edge.

      >Knuckles could dig into the ground and could attack with "uppercut" which negates durability. Knuckles could also punch the ground hard enough to create a shock wave that disorientates, dizzies opponents, or causes a small volcanic eruption.

      All of this is useless too. Buzzwole has flight so all of this "digging into the grounds" strategies are not gonna be useful here in the slightest.

      > Knuckles's attack I think is more effective since he can use the shockwave to disorientate Buzzwhole and one shot him with "uppercut"

      Not only is this useless, but Buzzwole has the AP advantage from the start and has more ways of buffing its stats than Knuckles does. One of which, Power Up Punch, will constantly increase Buzzwoles AP for every hit. He isnt one-shotting.

      >Use one of the Color Powers to kill him completely. He could also use his Nocturnal Blade to use his own Life-Absorption abilities on Buzzwole.

      Which power? And how likely is it that Knuckles will use the one specific one that would actually give him an advantage? And as for Nocturnal Blade, this was already brought up and I countered it with Buzzwole having its own life-absorbing abilities.

      >I'm sorry, but I don't see how Buzzwole can win when Knuckles has so many abilities to choose from and more variety in his techiques.

      Knuckles is more versatile yes, but it comes down to whether or not Knuckles will decide to use the right abilities early on.

      >Knuckles is also smarter, since he's a martial arts master and fought many skilled combatants like Sonic. Buzzwole seems to be about average or not very smart, unless you could prove otherwise.

      I already addressed this too. Buzzwole is a fighting type so its already naturally adept at the martial arts combat variety. Buzzwole has also not only made quick short work of well trained experienced pokemon like Ash's Pikachu, it's also comparable to the likes of the Tapu guardians who are very experienced in themselves for being able to train other pokemon and even fight the legendary mon Solgaleo and Lunala in a long drawn out battle. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence (which I can accept) but definitely not as much as people are making it out to be. It's not some mindless creature that can be toyed with easily.

      Still keeping my vote with Buzzwole as before.

      >No more than you assuming Buzzwole would easily get hit by Knuckles techniques as well.

      Knuckles will not get easily hit because he has more variety, more techniques, more abilities, much smarter, and more versatile.

      >The first 2 points are just completely useless. Invisibility would be the only thing that would be useful and this is assuming Knuckles will use this early enough before Buzzwole can gain an edge.

      Really? Let's say Buzzwole uses any one of his abilities right? Knuckles could formulate a strategy where he could trick him with an after image, dig into the ground, and use "uppercut" to bypass his durability. Invisibility will give Knuckles an edge yes, that'll make things even more easier so none of these points are "useless" lmao.

      >All of this is useless too. Buzzwole has flight so all of this "digging into the grounds" strategies are not gonna be useful here in the slightest.

      It depends on whether or not Knuckles could do the strategy in time to take him out. I know Buzzwole can fly, but Knuckles legit could trick him. Knuckles is undoubtedly smarter than Buzzwole. Knuckles has thought up schemes to stop both Sonic and Tails in their path back in Sonic 3 and Knuckles. The only person that's been able to outsmart Knuckles was Eggman and Eggman has an IQ of 300 lol.

      >Not only is this useless, but Buzzwole has the AP advantage from the start and has more ways of buffing its stats than Knuckles does. One of which, Power Up Punch, will constantly increase Buzzwoles AP for every hit. He isnt one-shotting.

      No, they are both planet level. That's assuming "Power Up Punch" will even land on Knuckles to begin with. What if Knuckles evades? Digs into the ground? If Buzzwole flies, Knuckles already can maneuver in the air by gliding. I know he may not one shot, but Buzzwole suffers from having no variety in his attacks and skills compared to Knuckles.

      >Which power? And how likely is it that Knuckles will use the one specific one that would actually give him an advantage? And as for Nocturnal Blade, this was already brought up and I countered it with Buzzwole having its own life-absorbing abilities.

      Violet Void. Knuckles will make use of whatever is in his arsenal to overcome his opponents. The "Leech Life" drains the users blood as stated on Buzzwoles profile and in the Pokemon games itself. Knuckles's Nocturnal Blade is much better because it can literally drain the actual life energy of the user and add it to his own. So, in order for Buzzwole to leech Knuckle's life away he'd have to actually sting him, drain his blood, and add it to his own. Knuckles could use the Power Flash to stop time for 10 seconds and could use the Nocturnal Blade to drain his life or the Violet Void to bypass his durability and kill him.

      >Knuckles is more versatile yes, but it comes down to whether or not Knuckles will decide to use the right abilities early on.

      And he will. If Buzzwole is going to use his full power and utilize all his skills? It'll only make sense for Knuckles to reciprocate by using the best counters against the abilities that'll be used against him. Knuckles by default has a greater chance of winning BECAUSE he's got more abilities than Buzzwole.

      >already addressed this too. Buzzwole is a fighting type so its already naturally adept at the martial arts combat variety. Buzzwole has also not only made quick short work of well trained experienced pokemon like Ash's Pikachu, it's also comparable to the likes of the Tapu guardians who are very experienced in themselves for being able to train other pokemon and even fight the legendary mon Solgaleo and Lunala in a long drawn out battle. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence (which I can accept) but definitely not as much as people are making it out to be. It's not some mindless creature that can be toyed with easily.

      Still keeping my vote with Buzzwole as before.

      Since you admit that Buzzwole is inferior in intelligence. That means, Knuckles has the edge in this battle. Knuckles is smarter, therefore he'll be more adept at situations, developing strategies, and because he has a bigger skill set and more abilities he's got everything he needs to counter Buzzwoles abilities which are miniscule in comparison. BTW, Knuckles has fire manipulation via the spiral upper and he's also got elemental manipulation of the ice, wind, fire, and earth varieties. This is also listed on his profile. In Pokemon when a characters takes damage from a type they are weak against? They are finished. Knuckles has fire manipulation. Knuckles also has his maximum heat attack which attacks the person as he's gliding, so this should also be Buzzwole's weakness as he's susceptible to flying type attacks.

      Buzzwole should get an L here. Knuckles has too many abilities, powers, defenses, and is also a much smarter combatant.

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    • Please don’t quote walls of text.

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    • The votes have been tied at 9-10 for a couple days now, this needs to be added as inconclusive

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    • No they havent and im going to make counters for the both of your arguments today (my bad, been kind of busy but i'll get to this.).

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    • Yes they have been tied, count them, it has been 9-9 votes

      Making counters is useless when the votes have been tied for at least 2 days, that's enough for a inconclusive

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Knuckles: 9 (Theuser789, ShadowWarrior1999, Hiryu-Z, HenryWong122, GlaceonGamez471, VioletVoid100, Godhand1999, ShakeResounding, Blueblur24)

      Buzzwole: 9 (ProfessorKukui4Life, Dragonboi9191, TheArsenal1212, ChosenOrDeath, TriforcePower1, Abstractions, UltimateFlare, RotofBots, Everything12)

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    • The votes dont count when someones made a counter against them im pretty sure.

      Either way, im going to make rebuttals later. 

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    • Dude, it’s incon.

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    • And I responded to your counters, what you say isn't a 100% correct, nobody is a 100% correct

      I already requested the matchup to be added, and using this logic I could say that your votes have been debunked for over a day so grace is over for Knuckles, so let's not go down that path

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    • Counter vs counter, which leads to more countering from that, is definitely an Inconclusive when the votes are essentially tied. It's been two days of essentially nothing but that, and I don't think anybody is interested in two more lol.

      This can probably be added as Inconclusive and closed tbh

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    • I just added it to both profiles.

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    • Then this can be closed.

      Cal?

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    • >But that still isn't skill, dodging attacks from someone thousands of times slower than you isn't skill

      It is when the said being is someone whos been in combat for years, facing the most experienced trained pokemon, and gets fodderized very easily.

      Even then, facing the Tapu is a better experience feat anyway.

      >10 to 20 seconds, and it's plenty enough of time

      Assuming that it will hit. Will get to this more below.

      >and you can't just make up what Buzzwole can do, even with fewer appereances you still use what's in character

      Im not making up anything here. Im using very valid justifications to say Buzzwole will use one of its benefical moves immediately when not only are its benefical moves the only moves it has, it's naturally a fighting type. So the chances of it using a non-fighting move first are close to 0 if not that.

      And no, thats not how in-character works here. We dont give a characterization to someone who uses tactics to stomp fodder instead of beings actually on their level. If Goku went up to a human and used a small ki attack to hold back against them, you wouldnt say that he would start out like that against Frieza or any actual enemy thats a threat would you? Of course not. How Buzzwole sees a Pikachu is different than how he would see an Ultra Beast, therefore you cannot assume that Buzzwole will treat any opponent in general like how he treats fodder.

      >I could just say the same and say that Knuckles will imediately use Power Flash and Indigo asteiroid with this logic of making stuff up for what they can do in character since Knuckles hasn't fought much in the modern era .

      False equivalancy on a very huge level. Knuckles and Buzzwole are not in the same situations in the slightest and im seriously hoping I dont need to explain this difference.

      >They never fought Zygard, for all we know he could stomp them, so we can't say that they are comparable, and it works on Chaos 6 and Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia if you use them.

      And for all we know, he cant. So using a 50/50 chance speculation argument doesnt help your point here.

      Even then, the UBs being => Perfect Zygarde is what is currently accepted here on this site. You dont like it? Make a CRT for it, otherwise its irrelevant.

      >I was wrong, it's imunity, the ice attacks don't harm Knuckles.

      And your wrong once again. Its not immunity, its resistance. Immunity is a No Limits Fallacy.

      >It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them

      ....and again, so does Buzzwole.

      And your still acting like Knuckles will know Buzzwoles weaknesses the moment this fight starts to know "when" to use them when he doesnt.

      >hey aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them,

      And neither one is idiotic enough to re-use a move that wont help them as thats blatantly ignoring common sense, so yes, they will continue using moves until they find the one that will work to their advantage, which helps Buzzwole even more since the only moves in his arsenal are ones that will help him.

      >and making strategies will know when to use his moves

      This requires Knuckles to already know Buzzwole's weaknesses. Which he doesnt have.

      >also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole

      And this is exactly why you cant claim Knuckles will immediately go for the right one immediately. Its because he has too much of them that it will take him longer to narrow down what will best suit him before Buzzwole does so. For example, if I had a 1000 different kind of moves in my arsenal, and only 10 of them would actually be effective, I would have to think through 950 other powers to figure out which 10 would actually be effective here. Meanwhile, my opponent only has 500 different kinds of powers but 450 of them are useful against me.

      Whos going to be the one who gets off the right move first? My opponent. And this is the same case with Knuckles and Buzzwole.

      >Knuckles will know when to use his moves depending on the situation thanks to he's greater skill, inteligence and ability to make better strategies on the times he was the commander of the resistance

      And this is all completely irrelevant since Knuckles will not know what Buzzwole is weak to when this fight starts. Being great at strategy =/= being able to know ones natural weaknesses.

      >if he's being drained he can use Power Flash to stun him

      Stunning Buzzwole wouldnt stop the life draining, especially if Buzzwole is using its stingers.

      >if he's being countered he can use the wisps and Thunder Arrow and if he's using stat boosts he can use Power Flash or the wisps

      None of this will, again, actually stop the powers from being used. They arent actual counters.

      >or if he heals he can just use Violet Void and Indigo Asteiroid to make sure he doesn't again, Knuckles greater arsenal just means that he has more responses to what Buzzwole can do, and Knuckles is used to dealing with many choices since he lead a army

      You keep mixing "He can do x" with "He will do x". Stop doing this. What Knuckles can do and what he will actually do, right away, are 2 very different things. Yes, he has a greater arsenal and more options, but that only worsens him when he now has to choose between which option will help. Meanwhile, all of Buzzwoles options are smaller than Knuckles and they will all help him, so it doesnt matter what option he chooses to start with.

      This is yet again another disadvantage that the Knuckles side chooses to ignore acting like it doesnt matter when it definitely does.

      >Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash

      "Undodgeable" is also another No Limits Fallacy the way your making this sound. So no.

      Especially since Buzzwole is ludicriously faster than Knuckles without speed being equalized.

      >Zygard coming to fight them is still vague, he could just think that nobody in Alola can defeat them and come to help save the pokemon before they cause some trouble

      The Ultra Beasts on numerous occasions are regarded as beings who are threats to all Pokemon, so this rebuttal right here is already most-definitely wrong.

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    • Dude, it was already added, give it up.

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    • >Knuckles will not get easily hit because he has more variety, more techniques, more abilities, much smarter, and more versatile.

      This has absolutely nothing to do with being able to dodge an attack, so this is just nonsense. No offense.

      >Really? Let's say Buzzwole uses any one of his abilities right? Knuckles could formulate a strategy where he could trick him with an after image, dig into the ground, and use "uppercut" to bypass his durability. Invisibility will give Knuckles an edge yes, that'll make things even more easier so none of these points are "useless" lmao.

      "Could formulate" is not the same as "will formulate" for one. Two, I blatantly said Invisibility would help, but it wont if Knuckles wont actually use it early enough. Three, your assuming that Knuckles will do this fast enough before Buzzwole either dodges or just uses Counter to reflect Uppercut right back at Knuckles.

      >The only person that's been able to outsmart Knuckles was Eggman and Eggman has an IQ of 300 lol

      Cute. Alakazam is a pokemon who has an IQ of 5000 with infinitely expanding brain-cells. And he's a non-legendary Pokemon at that.

      Eggman needing to outsmart Knuckles really doesnt help here. Like at all.

      >No, they are both planet level. That's assuming "Power Up Punch" will even land on Knuckles to begin with.

      "Both planet level" doesnt matter. Buzzwole is at a higher end of Planet level than Knuckles is. Same tier, but not to the same extent. Also, Power Up Punch doesnt need to land on Knuckles to increase Buzzwole's AP. Even if Knuckles just blocks the hit, Buzzwole making a hit period will increase his power.

      '>'Violet Void. Knuckles will make use of whatever is in his arsenal to overcome his opponents

      Not if its not in character for him to do that. Again, stop ignoring this.

      >The "Leech Life" drains the users blood as stated on Buzzwoles profile and in the Pokemon games itself.

      And I already countered this a while ago. Leech Life is able to drain energy too, as the anime shows, and it draining only blood still doesnt matter. The same result will happen: Buzzwole healing itself.

      > Knuckles's Nocturnal Blade is much better because it can literally drain the actual life energy of the user and add it to his own. So, in order for Buzzwole to leech Knuckle's life away he'd have to actually sting him, drain his blood, and add it to his own. Knuckles could use the Power Flash to stop time for 10 seconds and could use the Nocturnal Blade to drain his life or the Violet Void to bypass his durability and kill him.

      Nocturnal Blade is optional equipment, which Cal strictly said is not being allowed in this fight. So this already doesnt matter.

      >And he will. If Buzzwole is going to use his full power and utilize all his skills? It'll only make sense for Knuckles to reciprocate by using the best counters against the abilities that'll be used against him.

      And he wont. Because unlike Buzzwole, Knuckles has too many abilities to sort through to quickly figure out which specific ones will benefit him the most. It's like I said above. Someone who has 1000 type of powers but can only make use of 10 in a fight will not find out which 10 will be useful compared to someone who has 500 type of powers but has 450 of them that are useful.

      > Knuckles by default has a greater chance of winning BECAUSE he's got more abilities than Buzzwole

      See above. Having more abilities doesnt automatically increase your chances. In this situation it lowers your chances because you have to figure out which specific moves in your arsenal will get the job down.

      Buzzwole has like 15 powers that make up his whole arsenal and they will all help him while Knuckles has like at least 40+ amount of powers in his whole arsenal where only a few will be useful against Buzzwole. Buzzwole will be the one to figure out which moves will do good against Knuckle faster than Knuckles can determine what can be good against Buzzwole.

      >Since you admit that Buzzwole is inferior in intelligence. That means, Knuckles has the edge in this battle. Knuckles is smarter, therefore he'll be more adept at situations, developing strategies

      By like...a bit. Not exactly an advantage. And this was before I remembered Alakazam being a thing.

      >In Pokemon when a characters takes damage from a type they are weak against? They are finished. Knuckles has fire manipulation. Knuckles also has his maximum heat attack which attacks the person as he's gliding, so this should also be Buzzwole's weakness as he's susceptible to flying type attacks.

      Type advantage only works against a mon when the opponent has = or more power than them. Knuckles is starting out this match already weaker than Buzzwole, who has multiple methods of increasing its stats. And to top that off, ways of healing himself.

      So Knuckles using super effective moves will not be as effective as your making them out to be.

      The arguments for Knuckles have been dismantled and im still keeping my vote with Buzzwole.

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    • Theuser789 wrote: Dude, it was already added, give it up.

      .

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    • Theuser789 wrote:

      Theuser789 wrote: Dude, it was already added, give it up.

      I was typing before I saw Cal and others agree to it being added as an Incon.

      So nvm.

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    • A FANDOM user
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