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  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    15:45, July 1, 2019

    Alright, second favorite DMC character vs second favorite Nasuverse character. If this match goes incon I swear.

    DMC5 Dante and Mythological Mystic Code of Iron No Name/EMIYA,. Speed equalized, both at Low 2-C, fight takes place in Red Grave City. 

    For context, DMC5 Dante has a sizable AP advantage and a speed boost, but EMIYA has higher variability and a fighting style made for more powerful foes.

    The Devilish Demon Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt:

    The Hunter of the Red Plains and Mythological Nameless Hero of Iron: 7 (Managements, ZephyrosOmega, Dienomite22, Schnee One, DragonEmperor23, CrimsonStarFallen, Veloxt1r0kore)

    Dante gets a massive arsenal boost and EMIYA gets a lot of pizza:

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    • >2~3 AP advantage

      I think you are still mising the scaling chain on his ass.

      Hows the AP for emiya?

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    • For EMIYA:

      Baseline <<<< BB <<<< Kiara/Kama < MMC Emiya

      Dante:

      Baseline < Argosax < DMC1 Sparda Dante < Void Mundus <<< DMC2/4 Dante =< BoG DMC5 Dante <<< Urizen <<< Post-Fruit Urizen << EoG DMC5 Dante

      Key: 1 arrow means superior, 2 means majorly superior, 3 is vastly superior, 4 is massively superior. BB has some 8-D shenanigans so she's massively above baseline, Kiara casually ate BB, MMC Emiya beat Kiara.

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    • >BB has some 8-D shenanigans so she's massively above baseline

      You are using 8-D stuff to say they are way above baseline, do you see the problem there?

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    • Good point, that's my bad.

      It's better to say that considering most of her Low 2-C feats are vastly casual (like creating multiple infinite realms just to torture the main cast, which would be in total about five realms), she's still up there.

      Anyway let's just say Dante has a sizable AP advantage and call it that. Calcing exact numbers is hard for Low 2-C and I'm an idiot for trying.

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote:
      Good point, that's my bad.

      It's better to say that considering most of her Low 2-C feats are vastly casual (like creating multiple infinite realms just to torture the main cast, which would be in total about five realms), she's still up there.

      That sounds a lot like 2-C if you ask me.

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    • Yeah but it was determined not to be because of 2-C needing thousands of realms iirc. So she's just high into Low 2-C. Especially since it wasn't clear about how time and timelines functioned in those realms.

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    • What does this guy opens with?

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    • Depends on who he's fighting. He has Clairvoyance, but for him it works like analysis, and he has a skill called Mind's Eye (True) that lets him passively analyze and discern what the battlefield stage is. Neither of these work as pre-cog but they do let him simulate true pre-cog, at least in effect.

      For people that are either holding back or at his level, he'll open with basic strikes and prod at their defenses, trying to guage how they react and then coming up with better plans from there. For people above him by a sizable amount, unless forced to fight in close quarters, he'll retreat and go for a ranged option. Optimally, he'd set up a chokepoint style trap and pick them down with ranged attacks, but that requires prep-time that he won't have in this.

      Since Dante is above him, he'd fall back and attack from range. His effective range is several kilometers on his profile, though lore-nerds would argue that it's several hundred km.

      If he feels the range would be closing, he'd prepare his Reality Marble for usage and wait for the opponent to enter, in which case he would gain a signifigant stat boost (how much is unsure, though he was able to turn a stomp fight into an incon) and access to a sword rain a la Gilgamesh (think Vergil's summoned swords but with many, many, many hundreds more swords).

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    • Gotta go, will come back for this later.

      Also, Dante resist precog, dunno if that helps.

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    • It wouldn't because it's not precog. It just has a similar effect in practice.

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    • Funny because the thing Dante resists isn't really precog. It's more similar to predicting the future/analyzing, which is exactly what No Name here does.

      Though I could be wrong ofc. I'll probably have to search up the scans of Chen "predicting the future" and see whether it's actually precog or just very good analyzing like EoTM.

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    • Chen was using precog. And even then, The Beastheads also tried to precog Dante iirc, and they couldn't.

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    • bumpeth

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    • bumpo

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    • Xmark12 wrote:
      Funny because the thing Dante resists isn't really precog. It's more similar to predicting the future/analyzing, which is exactly what No Name here does.

      Though I could be wrong ofc. I'll probably have to search up the scans of Chen "predicting the future" and see whether it's actually precog or just very good analyzing like EoTM.

      Chen used true precog, the Beastheads gives it's user the ability to literally see the future, That's so Raven style.The Beastheads doesn't "predict" as in it's a guess,general assumption or analyzing about what will happen in the future, it just shows the literal future to it's user, which Chen used initially to dodge all of Dante's attacks until Dante got serious and annihilated Chen. 

      For example: 

      I try to kick you (you have the Beastheads) -> You easily dodge because the Beastheads showed you the future.

      Basically Epitaph from JJBA but better

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    • The problem is that it wouldn't work on Emiya's brand of psuedo-precog because it's not actually predicting the future. Merely, it's making a prediction based off of both past experience and analysis of the battle.

      If Emiya had Eye of the Mind (False), it wouldn't work on Dante. But because he has Eye of the Mind (True) it will.

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    • I was just confirming that what Dante resisted was true precognition regardless if it works here. 

      I dunno much about Fate characters so I don't know how much input I could really give.But based on your scenerio with Emiya raining down swords, Dante could just do this or the more likely case is his DSD summoned swords will just shoot all of the swords while simultaneously protecting Dante.

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    • The problem with Emiya's sword rain is that it's not just normal swords. The have powerful effects that don't always need to hit in order to activate. That being said, DSD's summoned swords are easily Dante's best answer, since they can operate of defense for him. The problem would be quantity, with hundreds of swords raining down, or, if he needs to pull literally everything, just doing this.

      Dante's main thing here is that his AP is high enough that he could kill Emiya in a short while if he's not careful. He can defend against a lot of Emiya's options successfully too, until he's in UBW. If he gets stuck in UBW it's entirely possible he would need SDT.

      So effectively, it's AP vs Adaptability, like the initial post implies.

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    • Well it isn't out of character for DMC5 Dante to immediately go into SDT near the beginning of the battle so if he were to do that then I that would lead to a blitz but in the case that he doesn't start with SDT he still has DT, Dreadnaught, Duplication, Fear aura, Instinctive Reaction, Invulnerability and he still has his Majin Form which will activate when near death.

      I don't think Dante will let Emiya recite his incantation to use UBW so I don't think that's an issue.

      What would Emiya likely use that would be a problem for Dante?

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    • He would probably copy and project Devilsword Dante.

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    • Copying and Projecting also gets rid of the AP advantage, since EMIYA also copies the strenght of the one who uses the weapon.

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    • Also the skill.

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    • >tfw you forget about Emiya's main gimmick

      Kill me now.

      Anyway, @Dienomite,

      I'm pretty sure SDT replaced Majin form, and Emiya would fall back to range since he'd know Dante is superior. Additionally, He resists mind manip, has durability negating NPs, and a few regen countering NPs. Instinctive reaction is something literally everyone in Fate worth their salt has, and it's something Emiya can deal with. 

      And Emiya can recite UBW in combat. He doesn't need to stop to begin the incantation, and can keep fighting while casting it.

      Duplication and DT are the biggest issues since they excacerbate Dante's AP avantage and DT gives Dante a speed advantage. Emiya can amp his own statistics as well, but not to the degree DT can. The duplication is the most major issue here, but with sword spam, he could probably cancel it.

      It's a lot more equal than the AP scale makes it look really. I can see the battle going either way, even if Emiya gets UBW up, or doesn't.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      He would probably copy and project Devilsword Dante.

      Wouldn't it be weaker than Dante's DSD? 

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote:

      No confirmation that SDT replaced anything and they don't activate the same way nor have much in common besides name and wings so they probably are different forms with Majin probably being weaker but that's based on nothing.Fear manipulation isn't tied to Mind manipulation so it should work.I would like to know how his useful NP's works.

      DT doesn't only boost speed here, it increases Dante's AP and DB as well and the Offense and Quick heart would give him a 10x boost to both AP and speed.

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    • It's comparable enough to the original that if the two clashed, they would be equal.

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    • Also forgot to mention, Dante's duplication creates a perfect copy of himself so it would 2 Dantes with the same exact abilities and weapons fighting Emiya

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      It's comparable enough to the original that if the two clashed, they would be equal.

      Wut, also can Emiya copy it to the fullest extent? He shouldn't be able to use SDT I know that but will he be able to use it's Sword Formations or the "opened" form?

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    • He would be able to.

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    • Emiya's Eye of the Mind allows him to view all possibilities of battle and take the one that would result in his victory, even if it's a one percent chance. That's basically how that works.

      And the whole point of F/SN is that copies can surpass the original so yes, he can copy it to the fullest extent

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    • EMIYA's Rho Aias should allow him to tank Dante's stronger attacks, seeing as how it was able to block all of Kiara's attacks. In addition, the mana upkeep from both devil trigger and doppleganger can exhaust Dante in hours of extended combat (which is what allowed people like Arkham to defeat both him and Vergil in DMC3) and if his magic is completely depleted can also cause other detriments like being unable to use his guns (which also use his magic) while base servants can fight for days while maintaining a good amount of mana, which should be boosted even further with an equipped mythological mystic code and independent action. EMIYA's tracing is confirmed to be unable to project machinery like handguns, being mostly specialized towards melee weapons, so a lot of Dante's ranged weaponry is safe from projection, which means The Jackpot would have to be dodged or countered with Rho Aias. Also should be kept in mind that EMIYA has weapons like harpe that can nullify Dante's regeneration while Dante has nothing from what I know with which to nullify EMIYA's. EMIYA also benefits from this battle taking place in Red Grave City, as there should be an abundance of souls from recently dead humans and demons scattered around which he can consume to constantly maintain his mana and health at the max. 

      The best option for Dante to win is to land an instantly lethal hit early on, while EMIYA needs to stall until Dante is worn down, which shouldn't be impossible given his tool set combined with his eye of the mind, which lets him stalemate against opponents who are vastly superior to him in speed like Lancer (who was moving so fast that EMIYA couldn't even see him) while using only his yin yang swords. In comparison, the tenfold increase in speed that Quick heart gives to Dante shouldn't be as overwhelming. Also since neither character is bloodlusted, Dante might get cocky and underestimate EMIYA, which EMIYA is known to be cunning enough to exploit. Overall I'd say EMIYA has the advantage here.

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    • I'd say that Emiya using the souls of deceased individuals is a tad out of character for him, but under equalization, Dante running out of mana is a realistic threat, since his magic would now be running off of mana like any other Magus in the nasuverse. I will say he likely has more than plenty, likely around the level of Arturia. Additionally, Rho Aias is primarily for projectiles, and we don't know how it fairs against non-projectile attacks.

      However, your arguement is overall solid, so vote counted.

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    • EMIYA FRA

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    • EMIYA actually consumes souls of deceased animals from the Einzbern forest to heal up and get enough mana to survive when Gilgamesh impales him in Unlimited Blade Works, so I wouldn't say its out of character for him to consume souls of demons. He's an antihero guy who would resort to underhanded tactics like that if it meant preventing greater damage.

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    • I have to go with Emiya here fra

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    • Emiya FRA

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    • Emiya fra

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    • Emiya FRA

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    • our boy finally getting a W

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    • he should have more matches tbh

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    • EMIYA FRA

      Any matches idea for his base version?

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    • Never expected EMIYA to fare so well against Dante, but the arguments in his favor makes a lot of sense. More so that his defense is so good that, with odds stacked against him, was able to fight Herakles, the guy who is the posterboy for being angry solo man, to the point that he wished he was sane to fully enjoy it.

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    • When the thickest boy in Greece looks past the undiluted clouds of madness to compliment you, you know you are a big deal.

      Though

      "Baseline <<<< BB <<<< Kiara/Kama < MMC Emiya"

      Imsorrybutwhatisthisforkery.

      The only reason Kiara doesn't punch everyone in the dick without a second thought, Gil included, was BB and the other Sakuras she had chomped on were restraining her from inside. And even then, you get a fight rather than one shooting her. All of the Servants with the power of Origin CERTAINLY aren't above Kiara.

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    • Yeah well that was made way before that was actively established.

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    • Really? I was rather sure that had been said before. But oh well, just in case.

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    • I think we've already established that Kiara is not above BB and not above the servants facing her.

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    • ThisIsMySwagPack wrote:
      I think we've already established that Kiara is not above BB and not above the servants facing her.

      There should be a thread about Nasuverse Low 2C scaling chain already, so we can finally agree on how is it.

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    • It would be much easier to agree on what's actually the case if CCC was localized like the previous installment, no idea why they decided not to. Anyways it looks like Dante owes EMIYA some pizza.

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    • Managements wrote:
      It would be much easier to agree on what's actually the case if CCC was localized like the previous installment, no idea why they decided not to. Anyways it looks like Dante owes EMIYA some pizza.

      (stares at Melt's crotch and Pass's boobs) anyways, has grace ended yet?

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    • Yep, this can be added.

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    • You guys know that DT Gauge it's just game mechanic right ? I hope that the people who voted here know that

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    • Yeah, we are well aware. The issue is that, under equalization, Dante is now using Nasuverse rules since his magic's rules are blatantly undefined. Which means he's using mana, and although he likely has an actual boatload of it, he can still run low.

      From what I can tell, the issue is that Emiya can play defensively against Dante with little effort. After all, a similar, albeit smaller gap existed between him and Heracles in the Fate route of Fate/stay night, and while Emiya was weakened and unable to use either UBW or his higher level projections, he managed to kill Heracles 6 times. Without support from a master, without his trump card, and while injured.

      I figured Dante's arsenal and larger AP difference would make this a much more even fight, but Emiya is extremely skilled at playing defense against far stronger foes. And by the time UBW is able to go up, he's either been fighting Dante from range for god knows how long, or fighting him CQC for a short while, both exhausting Dante, which we know is one of Dante's massive weaknesses.

      By the time UBW goes up, Dante has been either pelted by high level ranged projectiles, or he's been fighting someone he just can't hit at CQC. Both would force him into DT, or even SDT, likely around the time Emiya pulls UBW. But then that means it's all over, because UBW can just do this with everything Emiya has. I don't think Dante has a proper response to sword rain of that level. Vergil is one deal, but this is quite literally thousands of times better.

      When I made this I was mildly convinced that Dante would win because of his amps and SDT, but I forgot how good Emiya was at playing defense. By the time Emiya stops playing defense, Dante doesn't have a true answer.

      Between Emiya's adaptability, his defensive skill, and UBW's quality, I'd say this match reach a pretty safe conclusion.

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    • The gap between EMIYA and Herc was actually pretty massive as Well, since Herc can one shot EMIYA with anything. And the AP gap is reduced to nothing the moment he decides to copy Devil Sword Dante.

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    • I do not believe verse equalization works that way. You can assume he has mana, but not that he tires just like mages in Nasuverse do. Dante still has his absurd stamina and ability to recover quick.

      @ThisIsMySwagPack

      Where and when? With what proof? You could actually annex that instead of saying "it was established". Saying BB was weakened because Moon Cell shenanigans and equaling her to Kiara because she and the others were holding her back from inside doesn't sound like good reasoning to me.

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    • Yeah, Dante still has his absurd stamina, or course. He would have stamina akin to Saber's full power, or maybe Herc's.

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    • In the thread where we discussed the tier 2 upgrade. Basically, there is no real indication that Kiara is directly stronger than BB. The whole idea came from Kiara absorbing BB, but that is really due to circumstances. First, BB was just defeated by Hakuno and the Moon Cell broke free from BB, thus she lost quite a bit of her power. Then Kiara came and sneak attacked BB and absorbed her. And still, even with the power of the Moon Cell, a dying BB was able to bring her down. 

      Also, BB has so many goddess inside her, including Tiamat that there is no way she is weaker than Kiara. On Goetia's page it says that he should be comparable to Tiamat, but also stronger than Mara and Kiara. And Tiamat is technically not even the strongest goddess that BB has within herself.

      During the fight against Kiara, I haven't noticed anything that implies the Servant is having trouble fighting her. 

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    • I am not sure where this distorted idea came from. You can just ask Ram, the entire reason Kiara is combatable is because she's being fucked from from the inside by BB and the others, her usurping BB has nothing to do with the actual reasoning. If it wasn't for the Sakuras doing that, the Origin powered Servants that can actually combat BB wouldn't pose any actual threat to Kiara. 

      I really don't see the number of goddesses as anything consequential. And what does Goetia being stronger than Kiara have to do with anything? Kiara leaves it quite clear, her strong point isn't AP, it's her mind haxing shenanigans. She says as much in the very quote that has her claim Goetia is stronger. 

      Still, this is too much derailing. Is best not to continue this here. 

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    • This needs to be added and closed. I'll contact Schnee to close it, can someone add it?

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    • I can.

      Edit: Shit, Dante is closed.

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    • I cannot believe that someone actually said that EMIYA can copy weapons to their fullest extent. Hell to the no.

      EMIYA's biggest weakness is that he cannot copy to the fullest extent ANY weapon that he projects. There are ALWAYS imperfections in the value of every aspect of his tracing, and the stronger the weapon, the greater the amount of imperfections. I don't know how this affects the outcome of the match, nor do I care, but I want to clear this up right now.

      In terms of weapon quality, magical potency, skill and technique quality, history tracing and statistic mimicry, every aspect of EMIYA's projections are notably inferior to the original.

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    • .........Id say that twists things a bit

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    • ... I don't. It'd still close the AP gap enough to not be a massive one.

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    • IDK

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    • I don't believe it was said that he can copy things to their fullest extent. The main thing I remember is that Emiya is at least comparable, but inferior, to the skill and AP of the weapon's wielder. Which should still be enough for the arguments given.

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    • Ehh, I'm not voting yet, it seems this one needs more discussion, if the votes were based on Emiya copying things perfectly, they don't count anymore going by Solacis post

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    • ZephyrosOmega wrote:

      And the whole point of F/SN is that copies can surpass the original so yes, he can copy it to the fullest extent

      @LSirLancelotDuLacl

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    • Then Zephyros did an oopsie. I was going off from what Dragon said.

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    • The arguments still stand since most were made assuming he didn't copy DSD. And if he did, it would have enough power to still make it more even.

      So I mean, ehhhh...? They still work.

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    • Then this can be added tho, just ask a mod to unlock Dante's profile

      It's nice to see Dante having good opponents in Low 2-C

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    • Yeah. It's also nice to see No Name Emiya get a completed matchup

      HEAD TO THE EMIYA V NERO THREAD.

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    • When are we gonna get this added?

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    • Tap a mod to unlock the dante page.

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    • Gotcha.

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