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  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    22:20, June 20, 2019

    Yhwach has a new tier and thus deserves to test his mettle with some of its best characters.

    Speed Equalized, SBA otherwise:

    Yhwach: 8  (XulrevThe Prince of CountersKazuiK, GhuttsuSchnee OneTOAAPRESENCE1AnonymousBlankNaeblis495) via Passive Power Null stronger than Rumple's resistance 

    Rumple: 0

    Inconclusive: 4 (The Archdemon, EmperorDoom25, SpinoirrRaito Utopia) via who thinks first wins.


    Discuss!


    Edit:

    Grace Starts: 11:10 P.M. 6/18/19

    Grace Ends: 11:10 P.M. 6/19/19


    GRACE IS OVER.

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    • He has resistance to precognition and denial of power, I believe. But what is your most OP power?

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    • What does Rump do in character? I can only see a few issues that he can give Yhwach that being his law and plot manipulation but idk how they work. Yhwach seems to have the overall advantage via the Almighty, Rump might he resistant to precog but I doubt it's on Yhwach's level who can view infinite futures on the whim and change them, said precog and Fate Hax also works on type 2 Acausals. Not to mention that Yhwach himself has type 2 Acausality meaning any Fate, causality or probability hax Rump has is null. Yhwach also has soul manipulation and absorption hax on a multi planetary scale. He should also be able to ragdoll him with his own TK as Yhwach has class Z Tk whereas Rump only has class 25 TK. His regen is also useless as Yhwach can negate Low Godly.

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    • From what I saw on other threads, he either paralyzes or transmutates in character

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    • The former wont work since Yhwach can control his own body. Transmutation could be an issue but he'll need to pull it off before Yhwach fate haxxes and nulls.

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    • His paralysis works on people that have resistance to it btw

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    • Also, what can Yhwach do against immortality type 8?

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    • Yhwach should still be able to get around that. Yhwach isn't resistant to Paralysis but he has something that makes it useless since he can force his body to function and move via the Reitasu within his body.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote: Also, what can Yhwach do against immortality type 8?

      Absorb him or nulling it depending on the mechanics. He bypassed Gerards type 8 rather easily.

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    • I'll wait for more input since I dont know about this Rumple guy, but leaning towards Yhwach at the moment.

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    • Does anyone know who is knowledgable on Rumple?

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    • ask Archdemon. He's the expert in OUAT.

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    • Theglassman12 wrote:
      ask Archdemon. He's the expert in OUAT.

      I did but he hasn't done anything on the wiki since May 31st, so I am not entirely certain he will come here anytime soon.

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    • Rumple FRA.

      Resistance to Precog and Power Null, Existence Erasure and Power Destruction make it the winner.

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    • Nobody voted for Rumplestiltskin and his Resistance to precog gets bypassed. Yhwach can null EE as seem with Ichibei. That vote shouldn't count.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Yhwach should still be able to get around that. Yhwach isn't resistant to Paralysis but he has something that makes it useless since he can force his body to function and move via the Reitasu within his body.

      His paralysis is more akin to time stop on the person as it it just freezes them, seen here. 

      So Ransōtengai would be useless.


      IIRC, Rumple usually starts with BFR, Transmutation, or his Time Stop paralysis. 

      IDK how that contest with Yhwach's Almighty though.

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    • Your resistance is not bypassed, I do not know where you got it. Rumple can not be seen in the future. Without his Almighty to predict what Rumple is going to do, he is extremely vulnerable. Having a range of visions in the future does not change that you can not see someone. He would see endless futures and would still not see Rumple in any of them.

      Yhwach denied it, because he used the Almighty and changed his Destiny. Without it here, it takes OHK.

      Yhwach gets bodied.

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    • This man literally FRA when there was nothing to FRA. What...

      But yeah, to address the paralysis point, Yhwach being a Quincy has the ability to move his limbs like a puppeteer would a puppet as he can manipulate his limbs by via strings of energy.

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    • IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 wrote:

      This man literally FRA when there was nothing to FRA. What...

      But yeah, to address the paralysis point, Yhwach being a Quincy has the ability to move his limbs like a puppeteer would a puppet as he can manipulate his limbs by via strings of energy.

      His paralysis is more akin to time stop on the person as it it just freezes them, seen here. 

      So Ransōtengai would be useless.

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    • he is not vulnerable at all, he has the balance, which is probability manipulation passive spatial manipulation, around him, true godly regen, a dozen power nulls, 50 different types of absorption, 5 types of power mimicty, damage reflection, and 50 passives.

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    • also, i don't see any resistances towards reality warping

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    • Your resistance is not bypassed, I do not know where you got it. Rumple can not be seen in the future. Without his Almighty to predict what Rumple is going to do, he is extremely vulnerable. Having a range of visions in the future does not change that you can not see someone. He would see endless futures and would still not see Rumple in any of them.


      I don't think you understand how this works. Yhwach has precog that can work on those with Acausality type 2, the same people who don't exist in the future or past. So yes, Yhwach can still see him. A Resistance doesn't mean immunity. And funnily enough that's how it works. if character A is resistant to precog that sees 5 minutes into the future fight characters B who can see an infinite amount of futures then his Resistance wont be enough.


      Yhwach denied it, because he used the Almighty and changed his Destiny. Without it here, it takes OHK.


      I don't mean to sound rude but this comment doesn't make any sense.

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    • Yhwach has neither true godly nor passive spatial manipulation

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    • When did Yhwach precog an acasual

      Iirc he literally couldn't see mimihagi with the almighty

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    • oh shit, didn't see that there were no sternritter abilities.

      no idea why he's not allowed to use them 

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    • The Almighty has overridden stronger abilities than paralysis; it overcame conceptual manipulation that altered Yhwachs very essence to be akin to an ant after all.

      Rumple doesnt have a real answer for putting Yhwach down either. Yhwach rewriting any future wherein he is slain or destroyed is an immortality Rumple doesnt have an ability to nullify really so his Existence Erasure is moot, and further Yhwach can subjugate any ability he witnesses with The Almighty and simply absorb Rumple.

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    • He does have the sternritter abilties by sba

      There is no sternritter with passive spatial manip or true godly regen afaik though

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    • Paul Frank wrote: When did Yhwach precog an acasual

      Iirc he literally couldn't see mimihagi with the almighty


      Himself. Yhwach can apply the Almighty to himself. The Almighty picks one of the many futures he seees ans applies it. it's his own fate that he manipulates, not the fate of the opponent. Also against Mimihagi he had the base Almighty. After absorbing Mimihagi and the SK it got massive upgrades.

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      He does have the sternritter abilties by sba

      There is no sternritter with passive spatial manip or true godly regen afaik though

      apologies, low godly regen from gerard valkyrie, and he has passive spatial manipulation around him, with the wind, passive defensive ability

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    • Ghuttsu wrote:
      oh shit, didn't see that there were no sternritter abilities.

      no idea why he's not allowed to use them 

      He does have them, but he doesnt use in character

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    • Acausality Type 2 is resistant exactly because they have no future, just present. So if Yhwach saw the future of a character with such acausality, this is a clear contradiction.
      And I do not remember what that character was, I just remember him having difficulties with Mimihagi.
      And your reach does not change. I've never heard of such a thing, you see a thousand possibilities in the future, it does not change that a guy who can not be seen, will magically start to be seen.

      Nope.

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    • I dont think the wind is spatial manip

      I also forgot it existed

      I don't think him using the almighty on himself should count as a feat for his precog working on opponents with acasuality but meh

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    • Well, the only time he used the Almighty on himself was after absorbing Mimihagi and the Soul King.

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    • Yhwach > mimihagi had resistance to precog

      Yhwach > power null ichibei’s power null after already been power null and all his powers erased

      Yhwach > everyone under his command have existence erasure, even Yhwach shot himself in the chest with an existence erasure arrow just to stop himself from falling, plus negate existence erasure spell from ichibei

      Power destruction does what exactly?

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    • Yhwach has to touch rumple with one finger, and he'll gain all of his abilities, memories, knowledge, or he could just use the yourself. anything that rumple throws at him gets reflected by the balance, if he gets close to yhwach his passive spatial manip will rip him apart, intangibility, he can lower pretty much all of his resistances with the deathdealing, and make his own magic lethal to himself, etc tec

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      I dont think the wind is spatial manip

      I also forgot it existed

      I don't think him using the almighty on himself should count as a feat for his precog working on opponents with acasuality but meh

      it is spatial manip

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    • Power Destruction destroys abilities. Yhwach can and canonically has restored powers to himself however so its worthless against him

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    • Yhwach doesn’t have access to his alphabet set of powers in this match.

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    • Yhwach never restored any power. When did he do it? I remember him having stayed several and several years to restore his power after losing it.

      As he will regenerate his power, after Rumple completely destroy all his powers, exactly?

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    • he restored his own powers, during his fight with ichibei after having them remov ed on a conceptual level

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      Yhwach never restored any power. When did he do it? I remember him having stayed several and several years to restore his power after losing it.

      Yhwach vs Ichibei, Ichibei stripped Yhwach of half his power in his body and arm. Yhwach restored it.

      Ichibei then stripped Yhwach of every power, Yhwach restored it.

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    • This is not resistance to Conceptual Manip, since Yhwach was able to restore his name? And if I remember well, Yhwach restored him with the almighty moments after he came back to himself, changing the future. So he still had power If so, this is useless.
      Rumple would still leave him without any kind of powers, destroyed by Plot Manip (or something like this) of Rumple with the powers of the Author.

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    • ichibei has conceptual manip type 3, resisting it gives him resistance against conceptual manip.

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    • @Ghuttsu 

      This is not Conceptual Manip.

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    • Yhwach is acasual plot manipulation is useless afaik. And Ichibei can null on a conceptual level. If you disagree make a CRT since its literally on his profile. Hows it useless? Yhwach was able to restore his power being nulled on q conceptual level.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      This is not resistance to Conceptual Manip, since Yhwach was able to restore his name? And if I remember well, Yhwach restored him with the almighty moments after he came back to himself, changing the future. So he still had power If so, this is useless.
      Rumple would still leave him without any kind of powers, destroyed by Plot Manip (or something like this) of Rumple with the powers of the Author.

      Dude. he activated the almighty when his powers were removed.

      how is he going to activate his powers when they got removed?

      he was an ant.

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    • Ichibei leaved Yhwach without any kind of power but Almighty said NOPE I am the king of power nulling power every power null ability, and those powers were used to name and gave power to the afterlife itself.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote: @Ghuttsu 

      This is not Conceptual Manip.


      Profile begs to differ and its accepted as such. If you think otherwise make a crt.

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    • His resistance come from the fact that Ichibe cannot take away the Almighty from him, even after Ichibe has erased his name and powers, and tbh as long as he has the Almighty, Yhwach can restored his destroyed powers.

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    • Acausality does not make resistant from the powers of Plot Manip, and yes about Fate Manipulation.

      Because this is not conceptual manipulation, so your stamina does not apply here.

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    • Plot Manip is a type of fate manip

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    • Being an acausal doesnt grant you resistance to Plothax

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    • ... again I dont mean to be rude but what the fuck is this supposed to mean?

      Because this is not conceptual manipulation, so your stamina does not apply here


      Explain this. Again its accepted and on the profile, so yes it is conceptual manipulation.

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    • @MostPowerfull

      Yhwach has to touch rumple with one finger, and he'll gain all of his abilities, memories, knowledge, or he could just use the yourself. anything that rumple throws at him gets reflected by the balance, if he gets close to yhwach his passive spatial manip will rip him apart, intangibility, he can lower pretty much all of his resistances with the deathdealing, and make his own magic lethal to himself, etc tec 

      what's rumple going to do against some examples that i've mentioned above.

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    • If you don't think it's conceptual manipulation then please make a CRT to change the definition of Conceptual Manipulation Type 3.

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    • @Ghuttsu

      He had already received the technique, when the Almighty came back to him and so, the Almighty was not affected by Ichibe. At least that's what I remember.

      @MachTwo

      It is more for a manipulation of reality.

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    • Shouldn’t Plot Manipulation be counter by Copyright Manipulation?

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    • Ichibe does have conceptual manipulation - his power is to determine and rewrite the name, the very essence of anything and everything.

      That's conceptual manipulation - and with it he erased Yhwach's strength and power - and the Almighty negated that.



      Saying this didn't happen is disingenuous.

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    • When I said I do not agree with Yhwach having conceptual manipulation? I said that Rumple's ability is not conceptual manipulation, so his resistance does not apply here. I'm referring to Rumple's ability, I do not give the least to Ichibe.

      Read with your eyes and stop inventing things with your minds.

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    • Still an application of fate manipulation, at the end of the day both plot and fate manip will mess up with characters/place/verse destiny.

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    • AppleLord wrote:
      Shouldn’t Plot Manipulation be counter by Copyright Manipulation?

      Lmao

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      When I said I do not agree with Yhwach having conceptual manipulation? I said that Rumple's ability is not conceptual manipulation, so his stamina does not apply here.

      Read with your eyes and stop inventing things with your minds.

      Yhwach doesn't have conceptual manipulation - Ichibe does, and Yhwach resists Ichibe's conceptual power null.

      That's what is being said here.



      If you believe that Rumple wins here, then explain why, because the reasonings you have now aren't sufficient enough.

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    • To my knowledge Yhwach doesn’t have conceptual manipulation powers, but resistance to conceptual manipulation.

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    • no, it doesn't work like that.

      his powers were removed. the almighty was gone. when the almighty isn't active, it's negating effects aren't there.

      he was an ant.

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    • Yhwach is still inside the plot, and having applications is not exactly the same.
      Yhwach is not resistant to Plot Manip.

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    • Shouldn’t Conceptual Manipulation and Plot Manipulation be the same? Ichibei did remove Yhwach’s sword name from the MANGA PAGE by covering the kanji in black ink.

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      Still an application of fate manipulation, at the end of the day both plot and fate manip will mess up with characters/place/verse destiny.

      You would need Acausality type 5 to likely counter plothax

      Yhwach is type 2

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    • Plot manipulation is just a variation of Reality Warping.

      It say so on the page.

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    • Plot Manip and fate manip can alter and affect the same thing, both can alter the story/destiny of the verse, hence fate manip can counter plot manip and vice versa.

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    • yhwach is a reality warper, he can alter reality with a thought.

      if you didn't know

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      Plot Manip and fate manip can alter and affect the same thing, both can alter the story/destiny of the verse, hence fate manip can counter plot manip and vice versa.

      Fate manip definitely cant counter Plot manip, lol

      Plothax is greatly superior

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    • Plot Manip is a powerful variant of Reality Manipulation.

      Yhwach is not resistant to this.

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    • Ghuttsu wrote:
      yhwach is a reality warper, he can alter reality with a thought.

      if you didn't know

      Being a reality warper=/= having resistance to reality warping

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    • Changing speech bubbles are part of Plot Manipulation, so Ichibei has Plot Manipulation, and Yhwach negated it.

      Yhwach > Plot Manipulation (that’s why an arrow made from his own powers was the only thing that could took him down, and he ain’t even dead, just sealed with a hundred seals)

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    • AppleLord wrote:
      Changing speech bubbles are part of Plot Manipulation, so Ichibei has Plot Manipulation.

      Not on his profile, try again

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    • show us the best, that the plot manipulation of rumple has achieved.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      Plot Manip is a powerful variant of Reality Manipulation.

      Yhwach is not resistant to this.

      Nevermind the Almighty is the thing that SK used to create the verse along with all the system in it, the same verse that Yhwach about to revert back with his own Almighty.

      EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      Fate manip definitely cant counter Plot manip, lol

      Plothax is greatly superior

      Because? explain.

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    • He changed the story and erased all the powers of the Guardians of every world.

      He created hundreds of worlds, each with a horrible plot within him.

      He was able to change the plot of all heroes, making heroes become villains and vice versa. 

      I think these are the best deeds of Plot Manip. Bring them here? Impossible. YT simply removes them by copyright and did not find them elsewhere.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      AppleLord wrote:
      Changing speech bubbles are part of Plot Manipulation, so Ichibei has Plot Manipulation.

      Not on his profile, try again

      I know. But is on the manga I just linked the page.

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    • Doesn't the Plot Manipulation powers come from him writing with a pen or something?

      What stops Yhwach's null, or power absorbtion? 

      What stops him from blowing up Rumple with a thought with TK, or for warping Rumple's fate so he never is able to rewrite Yhwach's plot?

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    • MachTwo wrote:

      Because? explain.

      Because plothax controls the story as if the user was the author

      Beings with Plothax can control people that use fatehax and even control fate itself

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    • @MachTwo

      This is 5-A, as it is in your profile. Which exactly the point?

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:
      MachTwo wrote:

      Because? explain.

      Because plothax controls the story as if the user was the author

      Beings with Plothax can control people that use fatehax and even control fate itself

      fate manipulation is controlling fate itself? XD

      fate manip can control the story as well, what are you saying?

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      Because plothax controls the story as if the user was the author

      Beings with Plothax can control people that use fatehax and even control fate itself

      Because fate hax controls the destiny as if the user was the god of the verse

      Whats the diff?

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    • AppleLord wrote:

      EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      AppleLord wrote:
      Changing speech bubbles are part of Plot Manipulation, so Ichibei has Plot Manipulation.
      Not on his profile, try again

      I know. But is on the manga I just linked the page.

      You need to make a CRT, then

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    • The funny thing is that Yhwach was killed by the plot. Yhwach can not simply deny manipulating the plot with the Almighty?

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    • Yhwach breaks the pencil in a thought from the future

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    • @Warren 

      Not for Rumple. After Henry deposited his faith and lent him his power, he was able to use the power of the Author with simple hand movements.

      Rumple is resistant to Power Null and Removal, as far as I can remember.

      The fact that Almighty does not work in Rumple. It can not be seen in the future.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      MachTwo wrote:

      Because? explain.

      Because plothax controls the story as if the user was the author

      Beings with Plothax can control people that use fatehax and even control fate itself

      In their own verse because copyright

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    • KazuiK wrote:
      The funny thing is that Yhwach was killed by the plot. Yhwach can not simply deny manipulating the plot with the Almighty?

      If he was killed by the plot, how he is gonna null the plot?

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    • The Author's Quill is the soruce of the Author's powers and can be broken like any regular pencil.

      I don't think saying this item's plothax is enough to win this match.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @MachTwo

      This is 5-A, as it is in your profile. Which exactly the point?

      The Almighty is a reality warping in on itself, the same powers that SK used to create the verse, but on a weaker scale for YHwach.

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      Because plothax controls the story as if the user was the author

      Beings with Plothax can control people that use fatehax and even control fate itself

      Because fate hax controls the destiny as if the user was the god of the verse

      Whats the diff?

      And plothax controls the fatehax that controls the destiny

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    • he wasn't really killed by the plot, he was overconfident, and had the almighty disabled, then got hit by an arrow that nulled his powers for 3 seconds and got hit in that moment, and yhwach didn't get killed, he got sealed.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote

      And plothax controls the fatehax that controls the destiny

      Because? explain.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      KazuiK wrote:
      The funny thing is that Yhwach was killed by the plot. Yhwach can not simply deny manipulating the plot with the Almighty?

      If he was killed by the plot, how he is gonna null the plot?

      First he isn’t dead but undead and sealed away. Second the Plot used an arrow forged from Yhwach’s own powers to null his powers for an instant so he could be defeated.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      KazuiK wrote:
      The funny thing is that Yhwach was killed by the plot. Yhwach can not simply deny manipulating the plot with the Almighty?

      If he was killed by the plot, how he is gonna null the plot?

      It was a joke, I was referring to the Bleach story but let it go. If the opponent has no resistance to nullification then Yhwach can still nullify his powers.

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    • And if I'm not mistaken, Rumple is also able to make someone be impossible to hurt while in a specific realm.

      But I do not remember how he did it.

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    • @Mach 

      No, it's not. Almighty is a broken combination of Precognition, Nullification of Powers and Manipulation of Destiny.

      If you disagree, do a CRT.

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    • Rumple has time stop would that kill Yhwach?

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Mach 

      No, it's not. Almighty is a broken combination of Precognition, Nullification of Powers and Manipulation of Destiny.

      If you disagree, do a CRT.

      There will be a CRT for Yhwach and SK, don't worry about that.

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      EmperorDoom25 wrote

      And plothax controls the fatehax that controls the destiny

      Because? explain.

      As I said, it works as if you were the author of the story

      You might say: "Oh, people with fatehax is the god of the verse"

      Yeah, but they are still inside the story and would be nothing more than normal characters that controls fate compared to the author like-being that is controlling all the story and even the guys that use fatehax

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    • @Warren 

      Rumple is not in possession of the pen, he only has Henry's faith in him and with that, he can use all the powers of the Author.

      What does your durability have to do with Hax and your AP?

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren 

      Not for Rumple. After Henry deposited his faith and lent him his power, he was able to use the power of the Author with simple hand movements.

      Rumple is resistant to Power Null and Removal, as far as I can remember.

      The fact that Almighty does not work in Rumple. It can not be seen in the future.

      Then why does the Author's Quill's page say that Rumple is one of its users if he doesn't use it?

      Yhwach was able to change his own future after he absorbed Mimihagi - who is resistant to precog and is a type 2 acausal. Unless Rumple has really good resistance, I am pretty sure his precog resistance gets bypassed.

      And that doesn't stop Yhwach from blowing up Rumple with Thought-Based TK either.

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    • So instead of the pointless back amd forth occurring rn, what does Rumple lead with?

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren 

      What does your durability have to do with Hax and your AP?

      What is this in reference to?

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    • AnonymousBlank wrote:
      So instead of the pointless back amd forth occurring rn, what does Rumple lead with?

      From what I remember in his fight with Elenore, he starts with either BFR, Time-Stop-like Paralysis, or transmutation.

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    • Ichibei has a pen that writes and erases anything from the story (except for Almighty which after been erased refuses to stay that way) and is able to create Kanji in the manga panels and erase speech bubbles. Isn’t that Plot Manipulation instead conceptual manipulation or both? Soul King May had created the worlds but it was Ichibei who gave power and existence to everything else that needed naming, and he was there before even the Soul King was a thing. 🤔

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    • @Warren, people with type 2 acausality can manipulate their own fate, although his acausality resembles Type 4 more.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      As I said, it works as if you were the author of the story

      You might say: "Oh, people with fatehax is the god of the verse"

      Yeah, but they are still inside the story and would be nothing more than normal characters that controls fate compared to the author like-being that is controlling all the story and even the guys that use fatehax

      You are kidding right? plot manip still inside a story create by someone else, they still fictional being tied to the story. You think Rumpelstiltskin can seriously change story in bleach and create new adaptation for bleach?

      Tbh plot manip is pretty stupid because in reality it doesn't work.

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    • @Warren

      Because Rumple used the powers of the Author via Henry's Faith. But he did not really have the feather (at least he did not use it, because he could not). He possessed the pen for a few moments, only to hand her over to Henry.

      This is a clear contradiction, if he has such acausality, then he has no past or future.
      Rumple can not be seen in the future and his Almighty did not receive an up because of the absorption of Mimihagi (which he could not predict).

      I do not remember him blasting anyone with TK, but I think it's relevant!

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      As I said, it works as if you were the author of the story

      You might say: "Oh, people with fatehax is the god of the verse"

      Yeah, but they are still inside the story and would be nothing more than normal characters that controls fate compared to the author like-being that is controlling all the story and even the guys that use fatehax

      You are kidding right? plot manip still inside a story create by someone else, they still fictional being tied to the story. You think Rumpelstiltskin can seriously change story in bleach and create new adaptation for bleach?

      Tbh plot manip is pretty stupid because in reality it doesn't work.

      They are tied to the story and can still use powers that control the story, because that is how plothax works

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    • MostPowerfull wrote: @Warren

      Because Rumple used the powers of the Author via Henry's Faith. But he did not really have the feather (at least he did not use it, because he could not).

      This is a clear contradiction, if he has such acausality, then he has no past or future.
      Rumple can not be seen in the future and his Almighty did not receive an up because of the absorption of Mimihagi (which he could not predict).

      I do not remember him blasting anyone with TK, but I think it's relevant!

      Yhwach’s only reason to absorbed Mimihagi was to obtain his powers. He said so himself when he absorbed him.

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    • KazuiK wrote:
      @Warren, people with type 2 acausality can manipulate their own fate, although his acausality resembles Type 4 more.

      What do you mean by this?

      This is the defintion for Type 2 Acausality:

      "Type 2: Temporal Singularity: Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present. This means they cannot be affected by changes to the past, while also making them resistant to Precognition that works by viewing the future, as they do not exist within it, and Fate Manipulation, for the same reason. In essence, they are able to choose their own fates, but they remain just as vulnerable at the point in time in which they do exist."

      Yhwach, after he absorbed Mimihagi, was able to not only see his own future but manipulate it - meaning that his vision is able to see Type 2 Acausals which instinctively have resistance to precog.

      Which means he would be able to see Rumple despite his resistance.

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    • So BFR to where, Almighty can just undo whatever happens during it, and this can actually be problematic if not for the fact he can just rewrite this as well.

      Edit: Does anyone have the link to a fight with this key in OUAT?

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    • Yhwach has portal creation and dimensional travel through his own shadow.

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    • @Apple

      I said that his Almighty did not get one up, after all, what he did was absorb the powers of Mimihagi. Your almighty is the same from beginning to end.

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    • @Warren

      I meant that he can manipulate his own destiny. But his causality resembles type 4 because he resists manipulating the causality of Orihime however an explanation is needed.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      They are tied to the story and can still use powers that control the story, because that is how plothax works

      So all of them still tied to the story aka still fictional character, but can use powers that control the story

      You know what powers that can control the story or destiny or fate? fate manipulation.

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    • @Warren

      No. Yhwach manipulate his future, does not mean he will be able to see Rumple future. He was not able to do this with anyone who has resistance to Precog except himself and which alone is a contradiction, since such acausality has no future.

      Merlin, according to Archdemon, was able to see thousands of years in the future to talk to Emma, but was unable to see Emma's future when she became a Dark One. Rumple have the power of 25+ Dark One's combined.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote: @Apple

      I said that his Almighty did not get one up, after all, what he did was absorb the powers of Mimihagi. Your almighty is the same from beginning to end.


      I’m not so sure. Yhwach only started showing the Almighty ability to change the future after absorbing the Soul King. He intended to seal Seireitei in the time he absorbed the Soul King but never changed the future to where Seireitei was already sealed and decide to shot down the black goo through his finger instead. It got upgraded.

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    • @Apple

      He changed his fate against Ichibe, using the Almighty to deny his conceptual manipulation.

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    • or Yhwach just was able to see his own future because Kubo realized it would be dumb to remove the almighty by having Yhwach absorb mimihagi, not because he gained the ability to precog acasuals

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      They are tied to the story and can still use powers that control the story, because that is how plothax works

      So all of them still tied to the story aka still fictional character, but can use powers that control the story

      You know what powers that can control the story or destiny or fate? fate manipulation.

      Fate users controls fate, but they are still tied to the plot and cant do shit about it since they cant change it

      You cant beat someone with author powers like and PIS, by just controlling fate

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren

      Because Rumple used the powers of the Author via Henry's Faith. But he did not really have the feather (at least he did not use it, because he could not). He possessed the pen for a few moments, only to hand her over to Henry.

      This is a clear contradiction, if he has such acausality, then he has no past or future.
      Rumple can not be seen in the future and his Almighty did not receive an up because of the absorption of Mimihagi (which he could not predict).

      I do not remember him blasting anyone with TK, but I think it's relevant!

      He shouldn't be considered one of the users of the quill if he doesn't use the quill though.


      It's not a contradiction, it just foes to show how powerful Yhwach's vision is. You can have a power that bypasses resistances.


      He uses it on Ichibe , and on Ichigo, here as well. He uses it all the time.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote: @Apple

      He changed his fate against Ichibe, using the Almighty to deny his conceptual manipulation.

      That’s not possible. You’re telling me he choose a none existent future? Because there’s no future in which he can change a power null ability when are futures are Yhwach without any powers whatsoever and having physical stats with that of an ant.

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    • @Most

      Care to prove his Almighy didn't get better? He never showcased such powers before absorbing Mimi and after absorbing, he did. Seems pretty obvious his precog got amped.

      Also arguing fiction can't do the impossible is an argument from incredulity. Go tell Legends SW that they cant mindhax robots.

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    • KazuiK wrote:
      @Warren

      I meant that he can manipulate his own destiny. But his causality resembles type 4 because he resists manipulating the causality of Orihime however an explanation is needed.

      Type 4 was rejected.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      Fate users controls fate, but they are still tied to the plot and cant do shit about it since they cant change it

      You cant beat someone with author powers like and PIS, by just controlling fate

      Plot manipulation depends on the potency of the power - it isn't inherently greater than fate manipulation.

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    • Yeah, there is that too

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      Fate users controls fate, but they are still tied to the plot and cant do shit about it since they cant change it

      You cant beat someone with author powers like and PIS, by just controlling fate

      Plot is fate or destiny of the verse and If you talking in technical detail, fictional chars with author powers doesn't work in fiction

      You know what. What Rumple will starts with in chars? how often he will use his plot manip?

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    • But he is a user of pen power.

      No. Acausality Type 2 have neither future nor past. If Yhwach saw his future, it means that he is not a temporal singularity, he exists in the future.

      Well, his explosion did not reduce it to ashes, so I believe Rumple regeneration. As Yhwach negate regeneration works changing the future and you can not do this with Rumple, I do not know how it would work in it and also do not know the level of regeneration it denies, it is not specified on the page. 

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Apple

      He changed his fate against Ichibe, using the Almighty to deny his conceptual manipulation.

      He negated the power, he didn't change his fate. 

      That's what is stated in the series at that moment.



      The only time Yhwach changed his own Fate was when he resurrected himself.

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    • @Anonymous

      It has not been said and he predicting his own future is a contradiction. And he changed his fate against Ichibe, denying the events with the Almighty.

      I do not give a damn about it.

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    • @Warren

      Almighty is a combination of powers. He uses everyone at once, so he changed his destiny by denying what Ichibe.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Anonymous

      It has not been said and he predicting his own future is a contradiction. And he changed his fate against Ichibe, denying the events with the Almighty.

      I do not give a damn about it.

      Are you serious?

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    • @Mach

      What does this have to do with what I said? This is the Almighty's explanation at its core. Still a contradiction Yhwach precogs your on future, with have a Acausality Type 2 haxx.

      Almighty is a broken combination of powers.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      But he is a user of pen power.

      No. Acausality Type 2 have neither future nor past. If Rumple saw his future, it means that he is not a temporal singularity, he exists in the future.

      Well, his explosion did not reduce it to ashes, so I believe Rumple regeneration. As Yhwach negate regeneration works changing the future and you can not do this with Rumple, I do not know how it would work in it and also do not know the level of regeneration it denies, it is not specified on the page. 

      If he still isn't a user of the quill though, then he shouldn't be listed as one - that just brings confusion, as seen with this conversation.


      That's not how that works. Just because a character has a resistance to an ability, does not mean that this ability can't be bypassed by a stronger variation of said power. Yhwach's vision being able to see such a future shows how powerful his vision is.


      It still would leave him as chunks on the ground, and Yhwach could just finish Rumple off with soul destroying arrows. 

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    • >he changed his fate against Ichibe

      He clearly stated he nullified Ichibe powers

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    • MachTwo wrote:
      EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      Fate users controls fate, but they are still tied to the plot and cant do shit about it since they cant change it

      You cant beat someone with author powers like and PIS, by just controlling fate

      Plot is fate or destiny of the verse and If you talking in technical detail, fictional chars with author powers doesn't work in fiction

      You know what. What Rumple will starts with in chars? how often he will use his plot manip?

      What I meant is that most plot users can make a PIS event and win with that

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    • @Warren

      Okay, that does not change anything!

      No, this is a contradiction to the own nature of his ability, Yhwach can have no future, if he possesses Acausality Type 2.

      "Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present..."]

      Anyway, Rumple has the combined power of dozens of Dark One's and was resistant to a precog that has advanced thousands of years into the future.

      Teleport and other abilities account for it. And it's not like he delayed regenerating, or Yhwach knew it anyway.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren

      Almighty is a combination of powers. He uses everyone at once, so he changed his destiny by denying what Ichibe.

      The Almighty isn't just Fate Manipulation.

      His Power Nullification and Reactive Evolution aren't based on his fate hax or him changing his destiny.

      They are based on him knowing that he sees and all that he knows becomes his ally. Nothing to do with manipulating Fate.



      Yhwach doesn't do that until after he absorbed the Soul King and began fighting Ichigo.

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:

      What I meant is that most plot users can make a PIS event and win with that

      PIS event in the story. An event is fate/destiny/history within the story, something that fate hax can affect too.

      Answer my other question.

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    • @Warren

      True, sorry for that! Either way, Yhwach can not see Rumple in the future and these skills do not work on him.

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    • MachTwo wrote:


      Answer my other question.

      I dont know if he uses plot manip in character, Im not familiar with the verse. I was just talking about how plot interacts with fate and blah blah

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    • >was resistant to a precog that has advanced thousands of years into the future.

      Basically Almighty. Yhwach had that power thousand of years ago when he first got sealed and didn’t unlock it until he fought ichibei but he told Ichibei how he was gonna die before the battle started.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren

      Okay, that does not change anything!

      No, this is a contradiction to the own nature of his ability, Yhwach can have no future, if he possesses Acausality Type 2.

      "Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present..."]

      Anyway, Rumple has the combined power of dozens of Dark One's and was resistant to a precog that has advanced thousands of years into the future.

      Teleport and other abilities account for it. And it's not like he delayed regenerating, or Yhwach knew it anyway.

      This is an indexing wiki first and foremost - that should be updated.


      Again, that shows the strength of Yhwach's vision.

      And Yhwach's Almighty can sees all possible futures, which is greater than seeing thousands of years of a single future anyway. So I am 90% sure that his Precog bypass Rumple's resistance anyway.


      Has Rumple ever teleported while being blown up with TK? Or did he regenerate first, and then use one of his powers?

      And if Yhwach sees Rumple is regenerating, he can just throw out one of his arrows while he doing it.

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    • @Warren

      Nothing changes here!

      No, this is a direct contradiction to the nature of the skill.

      No, that is range, just as Merlin's range is bigger, but also different!
      As I said above, seeing endless possibilities, will not make someone who does not appear in the future, appear magically.
      Rumple has the resistent of dozens of Dark One's. Show me Yhwach denying precognition in such a way.

      Rumple's scaling is from Zelena (Rumple taught her all her abilities), which was reduced to liquid and regenerated with her magic. So yes, he can use magic with your body crumbled.

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    • Feats for Dark One's precog?

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    • There we go again with "I can see the infinite futures, so I can see who can not be seen in the future."

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    • Both Yhwach and Ichibei think that SK has see the future all the way to the event of quincy invasion Why this is so impressive? remember SK has been sealed 1 million years ago and incapable to using his powers. Weaker Yhwach with A can see thousand of years into the future and Yhwach has absorb SK duh.

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    • Congratulations ... He just possessed a feat similar to Merlin, who was unable to see the future of a Dark One. And as I recall, Yhwach predicted less than Thousand Years. But wait ... He can infinitely future, so he can see who can not be seen in the future.

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    • >was resistant to a precog that has advanced thousands of years into the future.

      Hmm how he possessed a feat similar to Merlin?

      >He can infinitely future so he can see who can not be seen in the future.

      Wut?

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    • @Mach Read again.


      Well, I explained what I wanted.

      I'll simply stop following this. Bye, guys!

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren

      Nothing changes here!

      No, this is a direct contradiction to the nature of the skill.

      No, that is range, just as Merlin's range is bigger, but also different!
      As I said above, seeing endless possibilities, will not make someone who does not appear in the future, appear magically.
      Rumple has the resistent of dozens of Dark One's. Show me Yhwach denying precognition in such a way.

      Rumple's scaling is from Zelena (Rumple taught her all her abilities), which was reduced to liquid and regenerated with her magic. So yes, he can use magic with your body crumbled.

      It clarifies the pages, which is important.


      And, AFAIK, how much one is able to see with their precog does determine the strength of the precog, which can bypass resistances.


      But does he use another power before regenerating, or does he regenerate first? Because Yhwach can just kill him if it was the latter while it former could be more of a problem.

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    • @Warren

      It's ok.

      Headcanon

      He must use magic to regenerate and also maintains consciousness (like Zelena) of what is happening.. Therefore, Rumple skill is usable.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      There we go again with "I can see the infinite futures, so I can see who can not be seen in the future."

      Rumple can resist being seen in the future with a person who can see only one future, he has never shown to resist being seen by a person who's precog can show the user every future.

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    • Again, that is range. Nothing is going to change!

      .. Why this still send me PM! I unfollow this 3 times.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      @Warren

      It's ok.

      Headcanon

      It's not, the page should clarify that Rumple doesn't use the pen, but has access to its powers because of Henry's Faith or whatever.

      Again, this is an indexing wiki - accuracy on the profiles is what matters.


      And it's is not headcanon - I can post a link to a fight where this logic is applied.

      Shulk verses Dante - Shulk's precog is greater than the precog than Dante resisted because he can see more.

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    • MostPowerfull wrote:
      Again, that is range. Nothing is going to change!

      .. Why this still send me PM! I unfollow this 3 times.

      Range is potency with Precog.

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    • people are arguing about one or two things for rumple, while yhwach literally has a hundred ways of killing him, and i don't see rumple getting past yhwach's passives, resistances & power nulls. 

      looks like a stomp to me, with everything that i've read.

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    • Yhwach can easily kill Rumple in many ways and can even bypass acausality type 2 thanks to mimihagi



      Yhwach fra

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    • Well... Could anyone make a summary or what? I'm lazy and don't want to read all of this lol

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    • The Archdemon wrote:
      Well... Could anyone make a summary or what? I'm lazy and don't want to read all of this lol

      Let's just start anew since you are here.

      What does Rumple lead with?

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    • Well, paralysis/time stop, transmutation and BFR are his mains.

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    • The Archdemon wrote:
      Well, paralysis/time stop, transmutation and BFR are his mains.

      As I remembered. What is the range on the BFR again?

      And how does he fair against passive powernull and precogntion that lets him see nigh-infinite futures, and thought-based fatehax?

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    • Well, BFR is multi-universal.

      I would have need of knowing the extent of said powers.

      But well, Rumple resists powernull from Hades, resists precognition from Merlin (he can basically see endless futures and endless alternative timelines and possibilities) and resists mindhax in the billions.

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    • The Archdemon wrote:
      Well, BFR is multi-universal.

      I would have need of knowing the extent of said powers.

      But well, Rumple resists powernull from Hades, resists precognition from Merlin (he can basically see endless futures and endless alternative timelines and possibilities) and resists mindhax in the billions.

      K.

      This is Yhwach's Power null, Info Analysis, and Reactive evolution. And thisis the extent of Yhwach's precognition.  

      I thought Merlin could only see thousands of years in the future? Where does the countless possibilities come from?

      I meant fate-hax, not mindhax - I have no idea why I wrote that.

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    • Merlin can, yes, se thousands of years in the future.

      He can, however, see a wide bow of different - and yet possible - futures, which is basically endless.

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    • The Archdemon wrote:
      Merlin can, yes, se thousands of years in the future.

      He can, however, see a wide bow of different - and yet possible - futures, which is basically endless.

      Got a link, because this is the first I have heard of this.

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    • Fatehax is a complicated one. The Black Fairy could resist the power of the quill's Fate Manip, and this Rumple is fair stronger.

      But how does this fatehax work? Can it activate faster than a though-based BFR + sealing?

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    • The Archdemon wrote:
      Fatehax is a complicated one. The Black Fairy could resist the power of the quill's Fate Manip, and this Rumple is fair stronger.

      But how does this fatehax work? Can it activate faster than a though-based BFR + sealing?

      It's thought-based and works instantly.

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    • the deathdealing, if rumple hit's yhwach, he'll become immune to his magic, which is basically his power, and he can make his own magic lethal to him. He can also lower  any of his resistances if he wishes to.

      The yourself, he can just copy all of his powers.

      The fear, basically fear manipulation.

      the wind: passive spatial manipulation that bends anything that tries to harm him, even if it's a person, that person will die

      the visionary, is just pure reality warping, able to alter reality with a thought.

      the balance probability manipulation anything harmful that comes towards yhwach gets reflected on his opponent with a greated magnitude.

      x-axis durability negation, with intangibility

      the miracle: low godly regen basically, and everytime he regens, his powers get boosted multiple times

      The almighty, fate manip, precog, healing negation, teleportation, power null, information analysis.

      yamamoto's bankai, most notable is 15 million degree passive fire shield surrounding his body, and existence erasure.

      just to give some examples.

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    • Looks like incon to me, since Rumple can just think and SEAL yHWACH AWAY INTO ANOTHER REALITY.

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    • Sorry, my caps went rogue

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    • bfr is useless, when a character has teleportation and dimension travel, and sealing gets nulled

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    • @Ghuttsu 

      Yhwach doesn't have his Sternritter powers in this fight.

      @The Archdemon 

      I can't respond anymore - I have family over for Father's Day.  I think that Yhwach might have a counter for BFR with his own teleportation but I am not sure - and his Reactive Evolution might make him resistant to sealing, but I again, I am unsure.

      I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to Bleach - talk to IMadeThisOn8-1-2017, as he knows tons about Bleach.

      Though inconclusive might be likely - and I'll count it as a vote.

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    • Other characters with teleportation and dimensional travel were BFR by Rumple and couldn't get away.

      And why is sealing get nulled?

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    • why would yhwach not be allowed to use sternritter abilities?

      this is to determine the strongest characters of each tier, they should be at their full power?

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    • and people said this was with.

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    • FFS guys,he doesnt use Sterintter abilities in character

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    • And this seems like an incon, tbh

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    • show me where rumple bfrs someone with teleportation & dimensional travel.

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    • It happens in the 21st episode of Season 7. It seems there's no video in YT, but it is in 37min 26s of the episode.

      Wish Realm Rumple BFRs Ultimate Dark One Rumple. Go to the page, you'll understand.

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    • he doesn't have dimensional travel, just teleportation.

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    • No, he has dimensional travel.

      This is rarely an ability on its own, often being achieved through other means such as Teleportation used to teleport into other universes.
      ~ Dimensional Travel page
      Low Multiversal with teleportation and BFR (Can teleport himself and others to almost anywhere there's magic for him to tap into, including separate realms)
      ~ Rumplestiltskin page

      I just didn't bother to put the "power" there.

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    • Happy now?

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    • Dude lol.

      in the next episode he literally says that rumplestiltskin removed his immortality and powers, and that that's why he can't back

      Happy now?

      season 7 episode 22 4 minuten 10 seconds

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    • so yes.

      bfr is completely useless.

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    • And nothing is stopping him from doing the very same thing to Yhwach as far as I'm concerned.

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    • Yhwach can give himself his powers back even if they are all removed.

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    • And there are other places Rumple could BFR Yhwach, places designed to keep people from using their powers to escape (like the Underworld or the World Behind the Mirror).

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    • not really, he specifically said that his power got removed with the author's pen, which is useless against yhwach, since in no way that he's going to be able to use it.

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    • and yhwach has power restoration. he got his powers removed on a conceptual level. so yes bfr is useless.

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    • you need to prove that you can't escape those places with dimensional travel..

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    • Rumplestiltskin wasn't able to get away from the Underworld without the help of Hades, and he had DT.

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    • what did hades do to get him out?

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    • Hades owns the Underworld, he can bring people in and out with a thought.

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    • and what's stopping yhwach's from foreseeing himself getting bfr'd in the future & manipulating it, as to where it doesn't happen?

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    • that being said.

      yhwach just absorbs him.

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    • They both activate their powers with a thought, right?

      Legit Inconclusive, then

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    • one difference, rumple can't do anything against yhwach while yhwach can absorb him, so its not inconclusive

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    • BFR that ignores Dimensional Travel

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    • bfr that gets removed by the almighty

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    • No it doesnt, since both activate their powers at the same time

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    • Almighty is already activated in his Almighty keys.

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    • it does when they get activated at the same time, it gets nulled because yhwach's ability is active.

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    • Almighty is one jack of all trades ability that is always on.

      Passive: Seeing the futures, knowing everything in the futures and power null.

      Activated with a thought: Changing the futures and power steal.

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    • Inconclusive fra

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    • Moustache man FRA

      Almighty would null passively and yhwach just have to absorb

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    • Rumple via Time stop and precog resistance + power null resistance.

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    • what's time stop going to do?

      precog resistance is useless

      power null resistance is useless.

      still gets absorbed

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    • why does yhwach not have access to his sternritter abilities..

      especially when he has them against drakkon

      doesn't make any sense when you're trying to decide the strongest characters for every tier.

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    • He does have acess to them, but he doesnt use them in character. Im tired of saying this over and over again

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    • Ghuttsu wrote:
      why does yhwach not have access to his sternritter abilities..

      especially when he has them against drakkon

      doesn't make any sense when you're trying to decide the strongest characters for every tier.

      Because that is not in-character for him to use.

      It makes sense when we rank the strongest characters for every tier, we rate them based on how they are in-character. 

      And he didn't even need, nor use his Sternritter abilites in his fight against so it doesn't matter if he is in or out-of-character.

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    • Ghuttsu wrote:
      what's time stop going to do?

      precog resistance is useless

      power null resistance is useless.

      still gets absorbed

      Time Stop would stop him in time.

      Instead of just saying that Rumple's resistances are useless, why don't you actually prove why they would be useless with scans. 

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    • time stop is going to stop the almighty, from seeing himself getting frozen in the future?

      it's called absorption. one of yhwach's main abilities.

      why make a thread, in which yhwach doesn't even use all of his powers. 

      literally no point

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    • Literally every Yhwach vsthread is done with him being in-character, so I dont see your point. Unless you want to make him Bloodlusted here? Do that and he doesnt enter to the Five Strongest list

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    • Ghuttsu wrote:
      time stop is going to stop the almighty, from seeing himself getting frozen in the future?

      it's called absorption. one of yhwach's main abilities.

      why make a thread, in which yhwach doesn't even use all of his powers. 

      literally no point

      If Rumple resists Precog and Power Null - then Yhwach's precog and power null are useless. 


      So Rumple's Time Stop/Paralysis will affect Yhwach unless you can prove that Yhwach's power null can override Rumple's resistance.

      Yhwach absorption actuivates by touching his opponent. Rumple's Time Stop/Paralysis, BFR, and Transmutation are thought-based. Far faster than Yhwach's absorption.

      However, Yhwach's Fate Hax is thought-based as well - that's why the current ruling is inconclusive via who thinks first.


      And I already told you - the Stronget Character for Every Tier list uses characters that are in-character. Yhwach doesn't use his Sternritter powers nor Yamamoto's Bankai in-character.

      And to find out which is superior on that list is the purpose of this thread.

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    • Incon fra

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    • Did I vote? If not, Incon FRA

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    • Not really, it depends on how potent his power null is.

      I doubt that it's more potent then "any ability that i know, i also understand and everything that i understand will become my ally, and will be unable to harm me in any way". especially since they're both 5-a, let alone with yhwach changing his fate, as to where none of rumples abilities actually hit yhwach. with the almighty, so yes, he can still absorb.

      and alright.

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    • Ghuttsu wrote: I doubt that it's more potent then "any ability that i know, i also understand and everything that i understand will become my ally, and will be unable to harm me in any way".

      That's not a potency feat, that's just what makes everyone nlf Yhwach

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    • if it's against a higher tier character sure, not when they're in the same tier

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    • Being in the same tier doesn't suddenly mean he can just null everything even if someone resists being nulled

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    • Ghuttsu wrote:
      Not really, it depends on how potent his power null is.

      I doubt that it's more potent then "any ability that i know, i also understand and everything that i understand will become my ally, and will be unable to harm me in any way". especially since they're both 5-a, let alone with yhwach changing his fate, as to where none of rumples abilities actually hit yhwach. with the almighty, so yes, he can still absorb.

      and alright.

      You have to prove the potency of Yhwach's power null is greater than Rumple's resistance.

      For instance, maybe include what types of hax that Yhwach has nulled, or the fact that Yhwach with the Almighty nulled conceptual power null which can likely be argued to be a feat that shows that the Almighty's null is greater than Rumple's resistance.

      The quote you wrote isn't a justifiaction for potency, but that Yhwach has power null - which we all know about. Also, both of them being 5-A means nothing.

      And for Yhwach to manipulate Rumple's Fate, he needs to think which is why he has an inconclusive with Rumple as the current vote because to defeat Yhwach, Rumple needs to think as well.

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    • Incon for the reasons above.

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    • I'm confused, every Incon vote has been voted but not a single Yhwach or Rumple vote. This feels like selective choosing. 

      That said, Yhwach. 

      Almighty has nulled conceptual manipulation and power null (against Ichibe Hyosube who removed Yhwach's ability and name, The Almighty simply destroyed that). 

      Almighty has also affected persons who are, reasonably, stronger than him (he was oneshot by True Bankai Ichigo, yet could shatter the Hollowfied True Bankai with a thought). 

      Even if Rumple is superior in most metrics, Rumple himself does not have the resistances for powernulling an anti-powernull, the likes of which Yhwach possesses. 

      The BFR argument does not work, Yhwach can open dimensional gates and teleport and The Almighty can powernull Rumple as shown. 

      Yhwach wins

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    • Hmm , inconclusive FRA

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    • Wait a minute, Yhwach should take this on a second thought. I had forgotten about the Reactive Evolution part about the Almighty which is passive as far as I'm aware. Yhwach should see the future and become resistant to anything Rumplestiltskin can throw at him. Also Xulrex forgot Yhwach has also nulled EE very casually and that was before the Almighty received a buff so the null on this key should be a lot more potent.

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    • His BFR ignores Dimensional Travel

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Wait a minute, Yhwach should take this on a second thought. I had forgotten about the Reactive Evolution part about the Almighty which is passive as far as I'm aware. Yhwach should see the future and become resistant to anything Rumplestiltskin can throw at him.

      Precisely, that's where Yhwach's power null has been coming in and being argued this entire time. 

      The Almighty is immune to powernull, and adapts to powernull anything that could affect Yhwach. 

      He realistically cannot lose, provably. 

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    • EmperorDoom25 wrote:
      His BFR ignores Dimensional Travel

      The Almighty ignores that stipulation since any power takes Yhwach's side and becomes useless against him. He resists it.

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    • Xulrev wrote:
      I'm confused, every Incon vote has been voted but not a single Yhwach or Rumple vote. This feels like selective choosing. 

      That said, Yhwach. 

      Almighty has nulled conceptual manipulation and power null (against Ichibe Hyosube who removed Yhwach's ability and name, The Almighty simply destroyed that). 

      Almighty has also affected persons who are, reasonably, stronger than him (he was oneshot by True Bankai Ichigo, yet could shatter the Hollowfied True Bankai with a thought). 

      Even if Rumple is superior in most metrics, Rumple himself does not have the resistances for powernulling an anti-powernull, the likes of which Yhwach possesses. 

      The BFR argument does not work, Yhwach can open dimensional gates and teleport and The Almighty can powernull Rumple as shown. 

      Yhwach wins

      My vote collection is selective because the votes for Rumple or Yhwach prior were based on things that the other side of the argument said wouldn't work. And thus I didn't consider them legitimate enough to count.

      For instance, Yhwach wins because he power nulls Rumple. Despite Rumple having a resistance to Power Null and the person making the statement not specifying on how Yhwach's power null is greater than Yhwach's resistance. The reverse is true as well.

      And believe me when I say that IF I had a bias in this fight, it would be for Yhwach since I like the series and character. Hell, I even made an argument for him here, which is the same one you are making. But I am trying to be neutral here.


      BFR can't work as Rumple's BFR can seal people with Dimensional Travel like Yhwach, but your superior power null argument is legitimate for now.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Wait a minute, Yhwach should take this on a second thought. I had forgotten about the Reactive Evolution part about the Almighty which is passive as far as I'm aware. Yhwach should see the future and become resistant to anything Rumplestiltskin can throw at him. Also Xulrex forgot Yhwach has also nulled EE very casually and that was before the Almighty received a buff so the null on this key should be a lot more potent.

      Rumple is resistant to Precog - which according to The Archdemon, the OUAT expert, is on a similar level to Yhwach's. 

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    • @Warren

      That is fair, it just seemed a bit odd. 

      But yes I re-assert my vote and Prince's since he agrees with me for the reasons I have stated above; The Almighty is a passive powernull that works against power nullification as shown against Ichibe Hyosube. 

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    • Even if Rumple is resistances to precog it doesn’t change the fact that Almighty works on Yhwach, so he will know if something happens to him even if he can see Rumple in the future because he will assume it was cause by the opponent in front of hin. Example: he gets cut, you would assume it was the person in front of you. You cannot move in a future so you would assume your opponent used some sort of spell to paralyze you in the future. That power will still be seen on Yhwach’s body, it’s effects at least and will get null.

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    • AppleLord wrote:
      Even if Rumple is resistances to precog it doesn’t change the fact that Almighty works on Yhwach, so he will know if something happens to him even if he can see Rumple in the future because he will assume it was cause by the opponent in front of hin. Example: he gets cut, you would assume it was the person in front of you. You cannot move in a future so you would assume your opponent used some sort of spell to paralyze you in the future. That power will still be seen on Yhwach’s body, it’s effects at least and will get null.

      Isn't there a thread that is trying to get rid of Yhwach's Acausality Type 2?

      I don't think that this argument should be used untill that thread is concluded - unless it already has.

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    • Yhwach has other means of gaining beyond the annulment of power?

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    • @Warren

      That response doesn't include Yhwach's Acausality whatsoever, it's simply the effect of The Almighty so the rebuttal is moot. 

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    • KazuiK wrote:
      Yhwach has other means of gaining beyond the annulment of power?

      Yhwach's Power Null and Reactive Evolution come from the Almighty.

      Yhwach can absorb entire beings and there power into himself naturally.

      Yhwach also has the Sankt Altar, which is the medallion which absorbs powers. However, I don't know if Yhwach can absorb more than one power with the medallion and if he can't, then the medallion is already full with Yamamoto's Bankai.

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    • Xulrev wrote:
      @Warren

      That response doesn't include Yhwach's Acausality whatsoever, it's simply the effect of The Almighty so the rebuttal is moot. 

      Saying that Yhwach's Almighty can work on himself isn't proof of potency unless Apple is working with the theory that was argued above that Yhwach can view the future of those with Acausality Type 2 - which would, in fact, make Yhwach's precog stronger than Rumple's resistance.

      However, that is being put question on another thread and should be resolved there to see if it is applicable for this thread.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:

      AppleLord wrote:
      Even if Rumple is resistances to precog it doesn’t change the fact that Almighty works on Yhwach, so he will know if something happens to him even if he can see Rumple in the future because he will assume it was cause by the opponent in front of hin. Example: he gets cut, you would assume it was the person in front of you. You cannot move in a future so you would assume your opponent used some sort of spell to paralyze you in the future. That power will still be seen on Yhwach’s body, it’s effects at least and will get null.

      Isn't there a thread that is trying to get rid of Yhwach's Acausality Type 2?

      I don't think that this argument should be used untill that thread is concluded - unless it already has.

      And what does that thread and Acasuality have anything to do with what I just said?

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    • How does the Almighty working on Yhwach showcase it potency being superior to Rumple's resistance otherwise?

      Rumple would still be blocked from Yhwach's future vision because of Rumple's resistance - Yhwach's power working on himself doesn't change that.

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    • @Warren

      Apple was asserting that Rumple's resistance to Precog doesn't negate Yhwach seeing into his own future, thereby seeing Rumple there as well since they're interacting. 

      It's actually an ingenius way to circumvent that particular resistance.

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    • Regardless if Yhwach's Acasuality gets removed he can still view his own future after absorbing Mimihagi so he has legit feats of bypassing Resistance / immunity to precog no matter how you wanna cut it.

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    • Xulrev wrote:
      @Warren

      Apple was asserting that Rumple's resistance to Precog doesn't negate Yhwach seeing into his own future, thereby seeing Rumple there as well since they're interacting. 

      It's actually an ingenius way to circumvent that particular resistance.

      Yhwach seeing into his own future doesn't magically make Rumple appear in his sight just because they would interact.

      Knowing his opponent is the one attacking him doesn't change anything because that should be obvioius.

      And if the argument of Yhwach's superior power null comes into effect, then there isn't a future where they interact in the first place since Rumple wouldn't have any of his powers anyway. 

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    • @Warren

      Well, he would be seeing how he is attacked in the future, was moreso the point. Sorry for the very confusing wording. 

      And Prince brings a good point; Mimihagi is immune to precog, he has Mimihagi's power, he views his own future post-absorption, so he really can bypass precog resist. 

      I think Apple's point is valid

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    • Xulrev wrote:
      @Warren

      Well, he would be seeing how he is attacked in the future, was moreso the point. Sorry for the very confusing wording. 

      And Prince brings a good point; Mimihagi is immune to precog, he has Mimihagi's power, he views his own future post-absorption, so he really can bypass precog resist. 

      I think Apple's point is valid

      But Mimihagi's reistance to precog comes from his Acausality.

      It, along with the Mimihagi being the embodiment stagnation, were the reasons as to why Mimihagi got Type 2 Acausality.

      So Prince's point is rendered moot.

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    • No, it really isn't rendered moot: Mimihagi has explicit feats of negating precog. 

      Yhwach absorbs Mimihagi and gains its powers. 

      Yhwach proceeds to see his own future, bypassing precog resist. 

      The precise wording does not matter, when the result of the feat is the same. 

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    • If Acasuality gets removed then it just gets turned into immunity to precog and Yhwach can still view his own future after absorbing Mimihagi. So the point still stands no matter what happens. Look at it this way, there's two possibilities that can happen with the thread. Yhwach still remains Acasual and the end is that Yhwach can fate hax and precog those with Acausality type 2 or instead of Acasuality Mimihagi is made resistant to precog but Yhwach can still bypass said Resistance. No matter what happens Yhwach will have precog that works on those with resistance to precog or Acausality.

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    • Xulrev wrote:
      No, it really isn't rendered moot: Mimihagi has explicit feats of negating precog. 

      Yhwach absorbs Mimihagi and gains its powers. 

      Yhwach proceeds to see his own future, bypassing precog resist. 

      The precise wording does not matter, when the result of the feat is the same. 

      If Mimihagi has an immunity to precog because it is a Type 2 Acausal, and the fact that Yhwach obtaining and bypassing Mimihagi's Type 2 after absorbing Mimihagi is being brought into questioning - then the argument is, in fact, rendered moot.

      Mimihagi's immunity to precog comes from his state of being, not a separate ability.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      If Acasuality gets removed then it just gets turned into immunity to precog and Yhwach can still view his own future after absorbing Mimihagi. So the point still stands no matter what happens. Look at it this way, there's two possibilities that can happen with the thread. Yhwach still remains Acasual and the end is that Yhwach can fate hax and precog those with Acausality type 2 or instead of Acasuality Mimihagi is made resistant to precog but Yhwach can still bypass said Resistance. No matter what happens Yhwach will have precog that works on those with resistance to precog or Acausality.

      IIRC only Yhwach's Type 2 would be removed, not Mimihagi's. 

      As Yhwach being able to see his own future is proof that he didn't absorb Mimihagi's state of being, just Mimihagi's strength and any other powers he has.


      And if this is the case, then Yhwach's vision doesn't get any stronger and Rumple still is resistant to it.

      The power null argument is a far stronger one.

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    • Anyway, I can't argue anymore for the day.

      I have to do 7+ hours of community service.


      So goodbye @Everyone.

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    • @Warren

      But Sankt Altar is not the medallion, I did not see Yhwach wear the medallion and it was also quite different from what he used against Yamamoto. But I'm changing my vote for now. FRA Mustache

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    • Yhwach fra

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    • Yhwach for the reasons above.

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    • yhwach fra

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    • Almighty GG FRA

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    • KazuiK wrote:
      @Warren

      But Sankt Altar is not the medallion, I did not see Yhwach wear the medallion and it was also quite different from what he used against Yamamoto. But I'm changing my vote for now. FRA Mustache

      You are right, I, for some reson, confused the medallion for one of Yhwach's abilities.

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    • And with that, Grace has started.

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    • Yhwach FRA

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    • I think this can already be added.

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    • Warren Valion
      Warren Valion removed this reply because:
      .
      04:00, June 20, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Wanted could do that, I'm disabled at the moment but I could ask for a mods.

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    • KazuiK wrote:
      I wanted power, I'm disabled at the moment but I could ask for a mods. Sorry

      It's okay - I got it.

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    • I didn't understand how Yhwach's power null's greater than Rumple's resistance, but oh well

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    • The Archdemon wrote:
      I didn't understand how Yhwach's power null's greater than Rumple's resistance, but oh well

      The Almighty's null is greater than conceptual power null - which is greater than what Rumple resisted.

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    • Yhwach is getting a downgrade to 5-B.

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    • Bleach downgrade incoming after an upgrade, nothing new and expected by everyone.

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    • And now Yhwach will never get the chance to fight the few remaining nasu 5-As ovo

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    • Lets just have a bunch of PSK matches instead

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    • AnonymousBlank wrote: Lets just have a bunch of PSK matches instead

      a bunch of stomp matches from a vegetable

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    • Yhwach still wins this fight

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    • This fight is a battle of Hax, AP didn't mean much so the fight is still valid

      As this is concluded, I will close it.

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