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  • Crabwhale
    Crabwhale closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    13:05, June 17, 2019

    DMC 5 Dante and End Game Joker with Satanael are being used (Both Low 2-C). Dante has all of his weapons and can access his Sin Devil Trigger form. Speed is equalized.

    Dante: 1 (AogiriKira)

    Joker: 2 (DarkGrath,User:Thatsafloridathing)

    Inconclusive:

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    • Joker resists most of Dante's hax like time stop, conceptual manipulation, attack reflection, etc. But Dante definitely takes this with BFR, and ap advantage.

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    • Never mind, Dante gets blitzed.

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    • The OP should equalize speed to make it fairer.

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    • What's Dante's AP anyways?

      Joker with Satanael is >>>>>>> GoC Yaldy >>> Phantom Thieves > HG Yaldy >>> Baseline

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    • Omnipotent Orb. Dante can't hurt him.

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    • Oh yeah that too

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    • EoG Dante >>>>>Urizen PF>>>>>>Urizen>>>>>DMC4/5>>>DMC2 Dante>>>>Void Mundus>>>Mundus=Argosax>=Baseline.

      That is the scaling chain but I dont really know where does sparda and the others fall here.

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    • Anyways Omni Orb nulls physical attacks and Joker resists most of Dante's hax except BFR and Type 3 Concept Manip

      So how likely are those.

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    • BFR/sealing comes into play at some moment into the fight if he isn't getting results with the other things.

      His concept manip is not combat applicable for the moment, dunno if we could chage that this century.

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    • The omnipotent orb isn't stated to be used in this fight though

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    • I wonder if Demolition would be considered a physical attack...

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    • Edwardtruong2006 wrote: What's Dante's AP anyways?

      Joker with Satanael is >>>>>>> GoC Yaldy >>> Phantom Thieves > HG Yaldy >>> Baseline

      The OP mentioned it’s End-Game Joker, which is actually listed on his profile as just before he gets Satanael. So quite a massive drop in AP. It’s possible the OP meant to refer to Joker with Satanael, since technically that could also be called “very End-Game” Joker (or something less silly, you know what I mean). It might be best if the OP clarifies.

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    • This would be a stomp because Joker can make himself immune to all physical damage.

      EDIT: Aaaaaaand I forgot about Dante's sealing. My bad.

      Well, let's see. Based off of the scaling chain for both, Dante is more powerful than Joker, vastly so. Dante was fighting things unquantifiably above baseline in DMC2, and Dante in DMC5 was fighting people who could stomp his DMC2 counterpart by a wide margin. So yeah he can survive what Joker throws at him.

      If Joker switches from his physical immune Personas, he dies in short order. But if Joker uses the omnipotent orb/ doesn't switch, Dante will just seal him after nothing he does works.

      Basically, neither of them would be able to hurt the other, but Dante has a surefire method of dealing with that issue whereas Joker doesn't.

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    • What about Joker’s insta-kill skills like Mudoon? Dante’s holy and mind Manip Resistance would nullify most of his insta-kill abilities, but Mudoon should be able to work as a form of Death Manip.

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    • Mudoon seems to be either easy to avoid, or just hard to hit. Even exceptionally low-tier beings within the Persona verse can avoid/resist it, and higher tiers are outright immune.

      So I'd say it's a possible option but given that it's a very difficult and unreliable option, I wouldn't count on it.

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    • Hmm... well, that’s not completely accurate, but you’re on the right track (at least, I think so)

      Most higher level beings in the Persona verse being immune to abilities like Mudoon seems to be moreso them having resistance to it, rather than simply enduring it through durability.

      Technically you’d be on the right track with the low chance of it hitting, since the whole point of the attack is that it only has a chance of insta-killing the opponent or just doing nothing. Problem is... Alice. Alice is a Persona who is listed on Joker’s profile as a standard Persona for him, since she is the highest Persona of the Death Arcana. Alice has the ability “Die for Me”, which acts like Mudoon and has an 80% chance of successfully insta-killing any opponent not resistant to curse manipulation.

      If we allow Joker to use the Omnipotent Orb, then I’d say he takes this. Dante isn’t resistant to curse manipulation, and while I don’t think Joker would instantly rely on Alice, I’m almost certain he’s more likely to use it in-character than Dante is with sealing. If we don’t allow the Omnipotent Orb though, and we use an earlier depiction of Dante (such as DMC2) then I think this can be a fair match.

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    • I'm pretty sure there was an enemy in DMC5 who had Death Manipulation, which would add on to Dante's and Nero's resistances.

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    • Was there? If so, then mixed with all of Dante’s other resistances the insta-kill abilities wouldn’t work (at least, I think). But I can’t think who in DMC5 had death manip. Could you elaborate?

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    • Man, imagine if Joker had access to his DLC Personas and skills. Door of Hades would tear through Dante like butter, being an Almighty-based instant-kill.

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    • Dante has all his weapons. Does this inculde Yamato? If so pretty sure he just durability negs and one shots. 

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    • DMC 5 Dante doesn't have Yamato. I'm only giving Dante all the weapons he has in DMC 5.

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    • Aight then, he attacks and realizes nothing's working due to orb. Seal GG

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    • Also, Joker would technically get the Omnipotent Orb, as it's standard equipment for End-Game Joker.

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    • I'm voting for Joker then.

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    • I'm voting Dante via sealing 

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    • Joker still has death manipulation with some of his skills though.

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    • Dante’s not a shrine maiden

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    • What type of attacks are they? Are they projectiles? 

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    • Most of them aren't projectiles.

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    • Oh well what type of attacks are they then? Melee? Aoe? 

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    • Melee

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    • Going back to what RebubleUselet said, does anyone know which enemy had death manipulation?

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    • Well if Joker's Death Manip is melee.

      Judging from circumstances they are both likely to pull out their win con at the same time. Dante realizes all his attacks are nulled and pulls out his guns to seal. Joker realizes he can't really kill him with Raw AP, and tries to Death Manip him.

      I'd have to give it to Dante however, due to him not only having a range advantage with his win con being a projectile, but also because his Devil Trigger gives him a massive boost to speed (Quick Heart is x10), so he'd have that advantage going for him due to amps, and even more so if he's in Sin DT. 

      Sticking with Dante as my vote 

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    • Again, Dante’s not a shrine maiden.

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    • Welp, if Dante's SDT gives him stronger stat buffs, I'll go with Dante because he has another viable win con, unlike Joker.

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    • Ren shoots Dante in the head with a conceptual bullet and the game ends. That’s my vote.

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    • Pretty sure Sinful Shell isn't Conceptual on that level, and is only there with the purpose of negating Abstract Existence, and Immortality. Also if Dante's in SDT, he's able to dodge due to speed amps. 

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    • I feel like people overestimate Dante’s willingness to seal tbh.

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    • Solacis wrote: Man, imagine if Joker had access to his DLC Personas and skills. Door of Hades would tear through Dante like butter, being an Almighty-based instant-kill.

      Why not exactly

      I mean Frank West has his Capcom Heroes DLC so....

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    • We don't overestimate, he just never has to. Since when has he faced an enemy that was A. Impossible for him to defeat normally and B. Not so much more powerful than him that he gets one-shot.

      Urizen wasn't sealed by Dante because Urizen was A. Vergil and Dante knew this, so he has an in character reason to not seal, and B. So much more powerful than Dante that he was one-shot before he could really do anything major.

      Argosax wasn't sealed because Dante was so much more powerful he utterly stomped him. Why would he bother?

      The Savior wasn't sealed because it was an At Least 7-B fighting a 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C. Again, why would Dante bother?

      The only person Dante has sealed was Mundus, who was A. Impossible for Dante to normally defeat, and B. About equal to Dante.

      In this Joker fight, Joker is far weaker, but he is also immune to anything Dante can throw at him. Dante, equally, is immune to most things Dante can throw at him. And given that most bosses on Joker's level don't resist Death Manipulation, yet are still unaffected by instant death spells, I'd still say that Joker's instant death effects are only useful on lower tiers.

      Add on that Dante might have resistance to instant death with Rebuble's earlier point, it might not matter in the first place. So, Dante wins via Sealing. Both pull their trumps at the same time, and even if Dante's unable resist instant death, he has the range advantage, the speed advantage with the Quick Heart, the fact that Dante can use Time Stop, which Joker does not resist, and Dante's massive AP advantage, Dante takes this in my opinion.

      Joker has to use Physical Immune Persona's, which massively limit his choices. He has to use one-shot moves, or else he can't make a dent. Most of his one-shot moves don't work on Dante, and the others have a reasonable amount of doubt.

      Also, Alice does not resist Physical. Which means that if Joker pulls her out, he will die in short order.

      TL;DR: Voting for Dante, The Devilish Demon Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt.

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    • Wait, Dante has only sealed once???

      Fuck that, man. People have been treating him like he’s Princess Zelda and seals almost immediately.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Wait, Dante has only sealed once???

      Fuck that, man. People have been treating him like he’s Princess Zelda and seals almost immediately.

      Assuming Zelda has ever sealed someone on her own before BOTW

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    • Nice job ignoring the point of my argument cal ;P

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    • He doesn't seal immediately. He seals when he has to. In this case he would have to. 

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    • No, I read every single bit of it. I saw your point and I found it far fetched, no offense of course.

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    • For the Sinful Shell point, it needs to be specified that Joker doesn’t have that in this fight. This is End-Game Joker, which is specified on his profile to be just before he gets Satanael. I’m still debating who exactly to vote for, since there seems to be good arguments on both sides, but this is a point that needs to be specified; Sinful Shell is not a win-con for Joker.

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    • Aight so 

      Joker: 1

      Dante: 3

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote: We don't overestimate, he just never has to. Since when has he faced an enemy that was A. Impossible for him to defeat normally and B. Not so much more powerful than him that he gets one-shot.

      Urizen wasn't sealed by Dante because Urizen was A. Vergil and Dante knew this, so he has an in character reason to not seal, and B. So much more powerful than Dante that he was one-shot before he could really do anything major.

      Argosax wasn't sealed because Dante was so much more powerful he utterly stomped him. Why would he bother?

      The Savior wasn't sealed because it was an At Least 7-B fighting a 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C. Again, why would Dante bother?

      The only person Dante has sealed was Mundus, who was A. Impossible for Dante to normally defeat, and B. About equal to Dante.

      In this Joker fight, Joker is far weaker, but he is also immune to anything Dante can throw at him. Dante, equally, is immune to most things Dante can throw at him. And given that most bosses on Joker's level don't resist Death Manipulation, yet are still unaffected by instant death spells, I'd still say that Joker's instant death effects are only useful on lower tiers.

      Add on that Dante might have resistance to instant death with Rebuble's earlier point, it might not matter in the first place. So, Dante wins via Sealing. Both pull their trumps at the same time, and even if Dante's unable resist instant death, he has the range advantage, the speed advantage with the Quick Heart, the fact that Dante can use Time Stop, which Joker does not resist, and Dante's massive AP advantage, Dante takes this in my opinion.

      Joker has to use Physical Immune Persona's, which massively limit his choices. He has to use one-shot moves, or else he can't make a dent. Most of his one-shot moves don't work on Dante, and the others have a reasonable amount of doubt.

      Also, Alice does not resist Physical. Which means that if Joker pulls her out, he will die in short order.

      TL;DR: Voting for Dante, The Devilish Demon Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt.

      Awesome post ma boi

      Going with Dante FRA

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    • Dante: 4 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing)

      Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)

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    • Dante FRA

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    • Dante: 5 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing, Modernmyrmidon)

      Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)

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    • What happens if I say Dante FRA?

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    • Dante gets a 6th vote lmao 

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    • You get an imaginary cookie.

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    • And a Pizza

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    • That sounds pretty tempting if you ask me :v

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    • One of us

      One of us

      One of us

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    • The pizza made the deal :v

      Dante FRA.

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    • Dante: 6 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing, Modernmyrmidon, Tony di bugalu)

      Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)

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    • Pizza
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    • 1 more vote left 4 the pizza boy

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    • A lot of misconceptions being thrown around here.

      1. Joker's Instant Death Spells:

      • All of Joker's instant-death spells are only "chance-based" because everything in Persona resists Death Manip. The stronger death spells have higher chances to work because they're more potent while the death resistance doesn't change notably among Shadows as the game progresses. For someone who doesn't resist death manipulation, Mudo is just as likely to kill as Die For Me!, and Hama is just as likely to kill as Samsara.

      2. Range:

      • All of Joker's spells have several kilometres in range, including his death spells. So Dante's sealing being ranged gives him no advantage in that aspect. Spells also manifest instantly at the target's location, so it's even harder for Dante to dodge.

      3. Skill Availability:

      • Joker being the Wild Card, he can fuse any skill to any Persona he wishes. Seeing as there are thousands of possible combinations, his profile explicitly states that he theoretically can have any and every skill/spell on any and every Persona. This includes passive skills like "Null Physical", which can easily be given to Alice. There are only a handful of exceptions, such as Morning Star being unique to Lucifer, Die For Me! being unique to Alice, and Samsara being unique to Daisoujou.

      4. Time Stop:

      • Joker resists Time Stop, as that's where his feat of time manip resistance comes from in the first place.

      5. Speed:

      • He also reacts to Dante's speed with the Quick Heart thanks to his Third Eye, which massively speeds up his reaction speed.

      Please consider all of this before making further votes.

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    • Third eye is enhanced senses, not enhanced reactions.

      Dante would still be able to dodge quite Easily in his DT form due to his massive speed amps.

      As for Alice having null physical, that still doesn't make Ren able to resist getting sealed by Dante, and he'd have to be able to hit Dante in the first place, which will be hard because of quick heart. 

      Also Dante still has range advantage due to his range being tens of kilometers, with Ren's range only being several 

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    • Joker's Die For Me is an AOE death spell. He also has speed amps of his own in Sukukaja and Heat Riser.

      "Third Eye: A special ability that Ren received as a gift from Igor. With it, he can spot barely-visible details, increase his reaction time, discern the importance of seemingly-mundane objects, as well as estimate the strength of an opponent in relation to himself."

      ^^ Listed right on the profile, buddy. Should probably read it the whole way through.

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    • Third eye is a passive ability yes? Well it's not quantified how much it speeds up his reaction, but it also sounds like an explanation for why he can evade attacks. Besides Third Eye isn't even listed on his speed, so it doesn't seem very applicable here.

      As for Sukukaja and Heat Riser, those are also things he would have to cast separately yes? How much do they increase his speed by?

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    • Third Eye can make things that Joker can barely react to look as if they're moving in slow motion. As for -kaja buffs, about 30% increase, basing off of past games.

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    • I have to say, I appreciate KnightOfSunlight using the title I have to Dante for his vote! Even so, I’m actually inclined to go for inconclusive. Assuming that Alice will have null physical seems a bit unreasonable to me, since while it is possible to do so it’s very rarely applied to her and he can’t apply it mid-battle. Even with Satanael, Dante seems to have a notable AP advantage (at least, it seems so) so if Joker 1: Doesn’t have the Omnipotent Orb 2: Switches out of his null phys Personas Then he’s going to be pretty badly damaged, and I’d say Dante would quite easily take the win at that point. However, it would be entirely possible for Joker to have at least 1 Persona with null phys and an insta-kill ability. Essentially, this comes down to who has what. If Joker has a Persona with both an insta-kill skill and null phys (which is a rare combination, mind you, but not impossible) then he can take this easily. But if he doesn’t, he doesn’t have many ways of hurting Dante without putting himself in serious risk of being one-shotted.

      So in conclusion, I think the match comes down to what Persona’s Joker has and what abilities they have. Assuming that he has every Persona with every ability and he can use all of them at the perfect times is completely unreasonable, but that wouldn’t be necessary for him to win. He’d just have to have a Persona with a specific set of skills that are rare, but entirely possible. Without further clarification, this pretty much comes down to chance.

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    • Dante: 6 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing, Modernmyrmidon, Tony di bugalu)

      Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)

      Inconclusive: 1 (Darkgrath)

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    • Just gonna point good abilities that Joker has that can be used against Dante.

      He can reduce the probability of Dante hitting him with an attack by 50%, he can instantly kill Dante with AoE death attacks, can increase the potency of said Death attacks, can increase his power, can power null Dante and make him forget how to use Sealing, can put Dante to sleep, and nullify almost all of Dante’s attacks with the Omnipotent Orb.

      Yes, the Omnipotent Orb is included and I’ve confirmed it in a previous comment

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    • Okay, now that I have enough time to freely tackle this behemoth, let's go.

      1. The instant death argument.

      This argument is, quite frankly, Joker's only wincon. Anything else Joker can throw out, Dante either resists, or it doesn't have enough effect to qualify as a wincon. Dante's own AP and Durability hard counter and massively outweigh Joker's own, so he has to rely on these. However, they are still "moves". They still need to hit. Hama and it's other versions need the spirit tags to make contact, and Mudo's related spells need the doll to do the same. Die for me needs the bears (sidenote: I never realized how weird the move actually looked) to actually hit. All of these physical moves are required to lad the death manipulation in Joker's case. In which case, Dante has instinctive reaction, a 10x speed boost, minor precog, acrobatics, etc, etc. Dodging anything Joker throws at him will be relatively effortless.

      2. Range.

      Dante has tied range, since the range aspect is true. And the spells manifesting at the target's loaction is both somewhat true, as certain spells do seem to actually travel from Joker towards the enemy, such as the much mentioned "Die For Me!". Even so, Dante's aforementioned boosts negate this, especially his instinctive reactions. All Dante needs is for Joker to leave a single opening, and then he seals. And considering we've already established that Dante can duck, dodge, diners, drive-ins, and dives all of Joker's spells, this shouldn't be too hard. Even more so since Dante can fire on the move.

      3. Skills Avalibility.

      In this case, it feels kinda wanky and hardcore bs to say "any Persona can have any skill, so we literally can't measure Joker's possible combos." It's far better for us to rely on the information we have at hand, which is the skill lists provided on the page for Joker. Just saying that Joker can have any skill on any Persona seems like a no limits fallacy, though I'm unfamiliar with the term. I'd still say this gets Occum's Razored as it relies heavily on the assumption that Joker will have that specific skill on that specific Persona. And again, Dante dodges almost everything Joker throws because a 10x speed boost is far superior to a 50% (1.5x) accuracy boost.

      4. Time Stop

      Joker does not resist this. That is objectively false. He has Time Manip, yes, but not to the degree of stopping time. There is not a single instance in which Joker resists someone halting time as a whole.

      5. Speed

      A 10x boost, halved, is still a 5x boost. Joker's buffs to his own speed only drive him up 50%, which is only a 1.5x boost. No where near even the halved speed Dante would have, if Joker can half his speed in the first place (the debuffs have things that 'hit" the enemy too, thoough this could be debated. Even still, it wouldn't change much). And assuming that Third Eye is such a massive buff to Joker's reactions that he can catch someone with a 10x speed boost when the highest possible boost he's even encountered was a 1.5x is downright foolish.

      And finally, point 6. Mind Manip

      Dante resists, gg. Any of Joker's mind manip skills will not work here. So no, Dante will not be affected by Joker's mind hax.

      All in all, vote unchanged. Dante seals after a hard-diff fight. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to not typing small essays on fictional characters.

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    • Oh, and Dante could just go SDT to boost his speed further.

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    • Ty Knight

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    • Isn’t time manipulation resistance accepted for Joker?

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    • Time manip resist =/= Time Stop resist.

      Resisting changes to the flow of time are infinitely inferior to resisting the entire flow of time stopping.

      Think of it like a river. Slowing or speeding the flow of a river is far easier to do than stopping the river cold.

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    • While I don't want to give Dante an ounce of credit, KOS is right.

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    • Holy shit what?

      I'm kind of in shock. You're the last person I expected to agree.

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote: Time manip resist =/= Time Stop resist.

      Resisting changes to the flow of time are infinitely inferior to resisting the entire flow of time stopping.

      Think of it like a river. Slowing or speeding the flow of a river is far easier to do than stopping the river cold.

      This is a correct statement.

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    • I have been tricked. Time to become Shura.

      Sekiro jojo
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    • Tony di bugalu wrote: EoG Dante >>>>>Urizen PF>>>>>>Urizen>>>>>DMC4/5>>>DMC2 Dante>>>>Void Mundus>>>Mundus=Argosax>=Baseline.

      That is the scaling chain but I dont really know where does sparda and the others fall here.

      Just to note, I would hardly call Void Mundus ">>>" normal Mundus. The only statement made is that he might be stronger than the normal version by Dante. Not even definite. All we can say is that he is slightly stronger. And Dante implies during their fight that the general level was still the same, so really, Void Mundus is only a decent bit stronger, if that.

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    • Wtf lmao

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    • Ok so what type of time manipulation can joker resist? (I’m more curious now also Voting Dante FRA.)

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    • THE SEVENTH VOTE! GRACE HAS STARTED!

      I'm not quite sure, but from my memory of P5, it's likely either time slowing or time accel.

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    • Dante: 7 (AogiriKira, Dante Demon Killah, KnightOfSunlight, Thatsafloridathing, Modernmyrmidon, Tony di bugalu, Jesterofgames)

      Joker: 1 (The real cal howard)

      Inconclusive: 1 (Darkgrath)

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    • I'm still pretty confident in Inconclusive myself.

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    • Joker's feat of Time Manip resistance came from being unaffected by Time Stop. That said, I was just correcting any misconceptions seeing as I'm not knowledgeable on Dante. If it weren't already grace, I'd be voting for Dante.

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    • 2 hours left.

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    • Dante FRA

      If grace still remains, of course

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    • It just ended.

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    • F

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    • So will this be added now?

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    • Gotta request it.

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    • We need to get this added holy crap.

      Can Schnee add it?

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    • Nope

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    • This still apparently has not been added. That's a bother...

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    • We may need to contact someone about that...

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    • Who could we contact?

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    • Any adm can open the profiles to allow us to add this

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    • Or, you know, you could just request it on the request thread like I just did.

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    • I added the results to the characters' profiles.

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    • Thanks o/

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    • I'll ask Crabwhale in private to close this thread :>

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