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  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    17:59, June 8, 2019

    Ladies.

    Gentlemen.

    Boys and girls.

    This is possible now (Thank you based WindGodAcheron, and based Kep).

    Both at Low 2-C, Speed Equalized. Win by incap (because I don't want either of my boys to die). Fight takes place in the Tournament of Power Arena, starting ten meters away from each other. Other than that, SBA.

    As an aside, I can try writing out this fight if it's wanted. Though, I haven't written for a good few months so I'm a tad rusty.

    "And you are set free!": 12 (DarkGrath, Mr.Cinos15, Dante Demon Killah, AogiriKira, Nier Hitoshura, B4 Bedo, Veloxt1r0kore, and PapiSavitar5025, RebubleUselet, TISSG7Redgrave, SuperAPM, Schnee One)

    "You were a pretty good fight! Let's train together some time!": 0

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    • No matter who loses, I win.

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    • Honestly, this is gonna be fun.

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    • Ah shit here we go again

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    • And to think this was a stomp not too long ago.

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    • So win by incap. This would include knocking eachother the fuck out right?

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    • Yes, anything that isn't outright killing. Though think of this like a ToP match-up.

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    • What's Dante's scaling chain in DMC5?

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    • Dante scales to Argosax who was fusing 2 universes casually, and was stated to be pulling apart and messing with the timeline of the human world casually. Dante effortlessly blitzed Argosax in his base form, and didn't even go DT.

      Here's the thread for most of this

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    • Hmm is that really the full scaling chain? Cause if so, Goku has the AP advantage, maybe to the point of nearly one-shotting (but Im not sure if that's the case, might have to ask Warren or some other Dragon ball expert for the whole scaling chain), although that doesn't guarantee the victory.

      Also dont worry, I already read the upgrade thread and I agree with "possibly low 2-C"

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    • I don't believe that, at Low 2-C, AP advantages really happen, at least from what I can tell. You're either at that tier or you aren't.

      Actually looking at it, yeah, there can't be. Probably because the AP to mess with time like is required for those levels is so incomprehensible that it can't be properly quantified.

      To quote from the Attack Potency page "Higher Dimensional levels: These levels are not listed because they are not restricted to the same parameters for energy requirement. The energy for such levels cannot be calculated."

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    • You are correct about how there is no quantified ap for the tier (for obvious reasons) but it is possible for low 2-C characters to have the ap advantage over other low 2-C characters just because of scaling chains. Some low 2-C characters even oneshot other low 2-C's because of aforementioned scaling chains. It's one of the reasons why Goku wins some of the battles in his page.

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    • Well, then, from what I can tell, Jiren scales to Fusion Zamasu, who was overwriting the timeline and laws of one universe and could be felt across all of time. Jiren was stated to be "more powerful" than Zamasu, but to what degree is unknown, at least to me. Goku scales to Jiren in his Broly Saga key, which is what I'm using for this battle, so he should be at least somewhat below him.

      Comparably, Argosax was performing a similar feat to Zamasu, which is affecting and meddling in the timeline of the human world casually, and Dnate blitzed and stomped him. Then, Urizen stomped Dante at the start of DMC5. And after all of that, Dante came back and defeated Urizen, then equalled the superior Vergil.

      So for Goku it's MUI Goku > Jiren >>>>>> Broly Arc SSB Goku >> Fusion Zamasu

      For Dante it's EoG DMC5 Dante >> Post-Qliphoth Urizen >>>>>>> Urizen >>>>>>> BoG DMC5 Dante > DMC2 Dante >>>>>>> The Despair Embodied Argosax

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    • Remember kids, an edgy emo poet + a ungodly horror unmatched by man = a weeb that is very motivated.

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    • Oh okay thats a much better scaling chain then I originally thought. I asked around for the scaling chain of low 2-C dragon ball (since I didn't know it) and this is the response that I got:

      Xantospoc wrote: TOP

      Baseline Low 2-C = Infinite Zamasu < First UIO (ep 110) < Suppressed Jiren (ep 109 - 110) < Kefla <= Second UIO <=  Goku SSBJ KKx20 (Post 2nd UIO) = SSJBE Vegeta < God of Destruction Toppo < SSJBE Vegeta post-Rage Boost <  Goku SSJBKKx20 + Rage Boost SSJBE Vegeta + 17 + Golden Freeza < Suppressed Jiren (ep 126)  < (Beerus, Other God of Destructions?!) <  Third UIO < 100% Jiren << UI < Limit Breaker Jiren < Rage Boosted UI <<<<<< Whis, other Angels <<< Grand Priest

      in Dragonball Super Broly

      SSJB Goku (BR) >= SSJB Goku KKx20 (Post 2nd UI) 

      SSJB Vegeta (BR) >= SSJB Goku KKx20 (Post 2nd UI) 

      SSJB Goku (BR) >= SSJB Vegeta (BR)

      SSJB Goku (BR) >= Rage Broly

      SSJB Goku (BR) + SSJB Vegeta (BR) < Base Gogeta < SSJ Broly < SSJ Gogeta < Beerus =< SSJ Broly (FP) << SSJB Gogeta

      We don't know exactly how FP Broly and Gogeta Blue stack up to Jiren and UI,and the least we talk about it, the better

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    • Right so let me try and put DMC's scaling chain into a similar way.

      Baseline Low 2-C = Void Mundus, Despair Embodied Argosax <<<<<<< DMC2 Dante < BoG DMC5 Dante w/ Rebellion << BoG DMC5 Dante w/ The Sparda <<<<<<<<< Pre-Qliphoth BoG Urizen =< Pre-Qliphoth MoG Urizen <<<<<<< Post-Qliphoth Urizen << DMC5 Dante w/ DSD

      While it seems less impressive, the gaps are quite a bit larger, so I believe it equals out. For example, Despair Embodied Argosax could barely even react to DMC2 Dante, and DMC5 Dante was one-shot by BoG Urizen, who was then blitzed by DMC5 Dante w/ DSD. We don't know quite how they stack up, but the gaps between more major players are large enough for one-shots so there's a good bit there.

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    • Hmm if that is the case then AP advantage is quite negligible at best if at all, but the DB scaling does include characters that one shots others but isnt shown in the scaling chain from what I remember, so it would probably be bigger then shown.

      But besides that, if it's a battle to the death Im not so sure, since I dont know if Dante hax stomps Goku (also can you tell what kind of combat applicable hax Dante has in DMC5?).

      If they follow TOP rules of no killing and instead have to knock each other out or out of the arena, I think that Goku might slightly outskill Dante enough to eventually knock out Dante or push him off the arena, but it would be a really really hard fight (This assumes that Dante would not use his ranged and bladed weapons or any non lethal hax he may have and instead try to fight hand to hand, but I still think that Goku might be able to beat Dante if he only used melee weapons, but he would be forced to strategize a lot to overcome him.)

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    • Dante can go non-lethal even with his bladed weapons. His fights with Vergil at the end of DMC5 show this pretty handily. As for Dante's skill, they're on a more even playing field imho. Dante has similar years of experience and is skilled enough to utilze weapons he's just picked up as if he's trained with them for year. In this case, Goku would have trained and experience based skill, Dante would have instinctual and experience based skill. So imo this comes down to character, intelligence, creativity, and combat applicable hax that don't count as kills. 

      A few combat applicable hax would include Sealing (though he won't be using it here, most likely), a laundry list of resistances, attack reflection, time stop, instinctive reaction, regen negation (up to mid), and durability negation (with SDT)

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    • Anyway, I've made my point that they're more equal than is to be initially believed. So I'll let the thread take off from there and keep my silence, unless someone says something stupid enough that I have to correct them.

      I suppose this will become more active in a couple of hours, so here we go.

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    • Hmm I forgot about Sin Devil Trigger, that might straight up kill Goku in one or two hits. But if he's not going for the kill then he might not use it, how does his attack reflection work? And I actually might agree with you on the fact that their very even in experience and certain skills. But in character Goku might try to enjoy the fight as much as he can as long as it isn't to the death or a fate of the world type fight, so that will probably bite him in the butt. What is Dante's mentality in a fight that isn't to the death?

      Instinctive reaction might be a problem for Goku but nothing he can't handle. Time stop is gonna be useless against Goku unless it's timestop that works on characters that resists time stop. Regen negation doesnt matter since Goku only has low regen in Ssg

      Intelligence I might argue that their about the same in combat intelligence but Dante might be smarter in general (although Im thinking that Goku might have more combat knowledge then Dante but that's because he actually trained in martial arts and hunt's regularly).

      Creativity, well...Dante wins this one definitely.

      And for non-lethal hax, Im pretty sure Dante out haxes Goku so no contest.

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    • Dante loves to play around in battles. Even when he's hopelessly outmatched by Vergil in DMC3 he still quips and makes jokes, and whenever he fights normal demons he's really just having fun. Not too different to Goku's, though he's more about being entertained than having a good fight. The two just coincide a fair amount.

      His attack reflection works in that he stores the energy from hits he blocks successfully with Royal Guard, and then sends as much of the energy as possible back all at once.

      Deepest lore, they become the best of friends and have fun together

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote: Dante loves to play around in battles. Even when he's hopelessly outmatched by Vergil in DMC3 he still quips and makes jokes, and whenever he fights normal demons he's really just having fun. Not too different to Goku's, though he's more about being entertained than having a good fight. The two just coincide a fair amount.

      His attack reflection works in that he stores the energy from hits he blocks successfully with Royal Guard, and then sends as much of the energy as possible back all at once.

      Deepest lore, they become the best of friends and have fun together

      I might agree on them becoming friends lol

      But adding all this up, I think they might fight until they tire each other out, with neither of them probably winning and instead happy that they found someone thats able to give them a challenge and isn't trying to kill them.

      So either Inconclusive or Dante barely pulls a win thanks to his Hax and probably getting bored of fighting quicker then Goku and trying to end the fight sooner. Of course I shall wait for anyone that can bring evidence to change my mind.

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    • DMC3 Dante makes jokes in a fight, this is Awakened Dante from DMC5 who was completely serious against opponents on the same level, like Urizen and Vergil, there is no playing around here

      For the scalling chain, Argosax is baseline Low 2-C and Void Mundus is stronger than him (since Void Mundus is stronger than Normal Mundus) and Dante, in DMC2, can easily defeat them even in base. Later, he was one shoted by Urizen even in Devil Trigger + Sparda, then came back and stomped Urizen, then Urizen ate the Qliphoth Fruit, and Dante defeated him once more

      Basically, he can one shot people who can one shot people who are baseline Low 2-C

      In terms of AP, Goku indeed have a little advantage, but nothing that Dante can't handle, Devil Trigger passively activates the Offence Heart, which doubles his strength, and the Quick Heart, which multiplies his speed by 10 times. Dante also have Enhanced Senses, Teleportation, Instinctive Reactions and the Royalguard to avoid Goku's attacks. He also have Two Time Stops (Chrono Heart and Bangle of Time) and two Time Slows (Quicksilver and SDT Judment), but since Goku is resistant, I don't think it's going to be useful here. Goku can use the Kaioken up to 20X, which indeed makes him 2X faster than DT Dante, however, Dante's Royalguard, Teleportation, Enhanced Senses, Instinctive Reactions and Mid Regeneration can avoid Goku, and the Kaioken is limited since it tires Goku, and Dante can maintain his DT the entire fight

      In game, even in the first fight against Urizen, the Royalguard Style is very effective, and we know that in their first fight, Urizen was capable of casually one shotting Dante. This style can also redirect Goku's attacks to himself. So in overall, Dante have the advantage in a close combat (since he fights with a sword) and can avoid basically everything that Goku throws at him, he also uses the SDT to booat even more his stats and can negate Goku's regeneration

      Worth saying that Goku's BFR won't work on Dante since he have Dimensional Travel. Goku can't teleport him to places that he can't feel any presence, and this is a extremely out of character for Goku since he never actually did this for combat even in terrible situations, only to avoid earth's destruction, like against Cell

      To finish Goku, Dante can seal him or implode him using SDT, both bypassing his durability and Sealing have a BFR as bonus

      "But Goku can escape Sealing with Dimensional Travel"

      No, he can't, at least not against Dante's Sealing, because with this, he sealed Mundus, who have Dimensional Travel and Portal Creation, and he couldn't escape the seal, against Goku this is not going to be different

      For the SDT implosion, it appears directly on the target and then reduce them to a bloody pulp, bypassing durability

      Worth saying that "winning by incapacitation" doesn't change much, basically both can die and both can go for the kill, but the condition for a victory is technically easier since they don't need to kill for that. Even if they just can't kill here no matter what, which is stupid considering that Dante is a lethal character by default, Sealing doesn't kill, so still a thing to Dante, and even a good option in this circustances since it's a strong opponent that he can't kill, Sealing is actually his best bet here. Also, this is not a friendly match by SBA, they are fighting, not joking, both of them get serious when they are fighting against someone comparable to them, and DMC5 Dante in this type of fight is completely serious and so is Goku

      So, for this reasons, I'm voting Dante, at least for now

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    • If thats the case then Dante fra.

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    • I think Dante Demon Killah makes a good point. Dante, the Devilish Demon Destroying Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt FRA.

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    • Dante FRA

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    • @Dante just letting you know, Goku has used the Kaioken to the absolute max multiple times againt Frieza and Vegeta and was still able to fight. The latter he couldn't even move cause his great ape form literally crushed every single bone in his body.

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    • Your examples only apply to Base Goku on Saiyan and Freeza Saga, here is SSB Goku, the Kaioken have a bigger drawback when used with Blue

      They start equal in speed, so Base Dante = SSB Goku

      The Kaioken can match the Quick Heart by going 10X, and even surpass it with 20X, but this Technique, when used with SSB, will tire Goku during the fight, I know that he could use in the Survival Saga some times but he could rest between uses and when he used (against Jiren, for example) he ended up tired, and it was used in key moments, if this is his plan here, it wouldn't help at all, and if he decides to use Kaioken all the time, he will tire even faster. Since Dante can keep his DT for the entire fight (DT Gauge it's just game mechanic), and keep up with Goku's speed with those haxes that I listed, this will not save Goku and will only give him a slight edge for a while, since it will push Dante to "Defense Mode", but as I said, he can defend himself until Goku runs out of Kaioken

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    • I wasn't even referencing speed. I was saying Goku doesn't tire out easily since he's used Kaioken at it's max before and still kept on fighting.

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    • Yes, he can still fight, but he will not able to keep fighting on the same level

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    • "I can still fight" 

      *Vergil Intensifies*

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    • Can we all agree that golden experience requiem could neg both of them...

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    • Going with Ragna's father for the following reasons above. 

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    • Nier Hitoshura wrote: Going with Ragna's father for the following reasons above. 

      ...

      Now how am I supposed to unsee that?

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    • DarkGrath wrote:

      Nier Hitoshura wrote: Going with Ragna's father for the following reasons above. 

      ...

      Now how am I supposed to unsee that?

      That's the thing... you don't. :)

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    • ...thanks?

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    • Dante FRA

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    • But Ragna's dad isn't even in this fight tho. OwO

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    • Dante FRA i guess, someone should make Ren (P5 one) vs Dantin future

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    • Dante FRA.

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    • 23 hours left of Grace, started an hour ago

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    • Theglassman12 wrote: But Ragna's dad isn't even in this fight tho. OwO

      I need answers

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    • Message me on my wall and I shall give them to you.

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    • Ragna is too much of a potty mouth. If he was Dante's kid he'd have better manners.

      12 hours left of grace.

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    • Looks like Dante's gonna perform better as a Low 2-C, heh

      I know it's overkill, but Dante for Dante's reasons

      BTW, The Despair Embodied is actually above baseline Low 2-C (unquantifiably so), since according to Kep, Low 2-C via multiple 3-A dimensions is above baseline.

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    • Who ever wins i lose :V

      Welp pizza loving demon killer fra

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    • I'm going full Dante on this one for reasons above

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    • 11 votes. Sheesh. Maybe I should've made it MUI Goku.

      Grace continues.

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    • How many votes before you can decide a winner?

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    • 7 is the bare minimum, then a 24 hour grace period, then the winner is decided and added to the profiles. Any winner must have a gap of 4 votes between them and the loser.

      11 hours remain of grace.

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    • The gap is actually at least 3 votes, FYI.

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    • Ah, really? Well, that's my bad.

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    • WHY DID I MISS THIS

      I wish this was MUI

      Anyway, Dante FRA

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    • Who you voting Schnee One?

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    • I voted Dante

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    • Boi, make it 12 then

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    • 12 votes for Duntes, 0 for Monky

      9 hours remain of grace.

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    • MUI Goku would actually be a fairer fight IMO. I might have to make another thread for that specific fight, if it's fair to and doesn't overwrite this one.

      How would we deal with 2 different keys of a character fighting one character?

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    • Put a note on the side that says (DMC5 Dante and SSJB Goku was used) for this one and then (DMC5 Dante and MUI Goku was used) for the other one along with any other notes that need to be added such as speed being =

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    • It would be worst, what are you guys talking about ?

      Their starting speed would equal and Goku can't use Kaioken while in MUI

      The AP advantage that Goku would have in MUI would be avoided by all those abilities that I listed about Dante + the Quick Heart that makes him 10X faster than Goku, even instinctive Reaction can't help you if the opponent is much faster

      Sealing, Yamato and SDT to bypass Goku's durability

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    • Ahem, Dante doesn't have Yamato at this point.

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    • I said "Yamato" because I don't know what version of Dante would be used in a Dante vs MUI Goku, or if would be composite like his fight against Kratos

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    • MUI Goku is vastly above Broly SSJB Goku, what? It's almost agreed upon that MUI Goku is about equal to SSJB Gogeta, at least from what I've heard.

      Then again, who knows?

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    • We are using actual SSB Goku, which means a stronger version of his Survival Saga's version

      MUI Goku is only one, from the fight against Jiren, like what happens with Vegito here, he's not Low 2-C because there is only one Vegito, the one who fought Zamasu who's 3-A. There's only one MUI Goku, from the Survival Saga

      Their AP isn't faaaar different, he will be stronger, no doubt about that, but he will have a time limit and will be 10X slower than Dante

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    • Yeah well, let's wait until we make a battle for that to make arguments about who would win, if we do make the battle.

      8 hours of grace remain.

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    • KnightOfSunlight 

      I guess if you make a second fight MUI Goku you can count mine and Dante Demon Killah's vote for Dante right off the Bat

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    • Nothing has changed, no more votes have been cast.

      5 hours remain.

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    • Has it been added?

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    • Gotta wait another 5 hou..... Post was edited 7 house ago .........  KNIIIIIGHT, The Time of Grace has FINIIIIIIISHED!!

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    • 38480F99-3579-4FEA-B7AC-5FE237A66593

      KNIIIIIGHT!!!!

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    • "I'll try it your way, for once."

      "Remember what we used to say?"

      JACKPOT

      NO! DON'T DO IT! I HAVE THE TRUE POWER OF SPARDAAA!









      The winner is: Dante, the wacky woohoo pizza man. Now we just need someone to add it.

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote:
      "I'll try it your way, for once."

      "Remember what we used to say?"

      JACKPOT

      NO! DON'T DO IT! I HAVE THE TRUE POWER OF SPARDAAA!









      The winner is: Dante, the wacky woohoo pizza man. Now we just need someone to add it.

      Already handeling that.

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    • NOICE!!

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    • Can we just officially refer to Dante as “The Devilish Demon Debonair Doubtlessly Drowning in Debt”? I don’t think anything could stop me from calling him that at this point. XD

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    • Can I ask what Son Goku's key was used for the battle? The one that is Post-second Ultra Instinct -Sign-/Broly Saga, right?

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    • That would be the one, yes.

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    • I added the match to their profiles~

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    • Considering how controversial matches with either Dante or Goku can get, this was surprisingly smooth.

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    • Yeah, it was, wasn't it?

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    • This still open? Shouldn't you close it or are you unable to?

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    • I have no power to do this :(

      I'll go ask Crabwhale to do this.

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    • You can ask the discussion mod on the thread as well

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