The real cal howard wrote: Depends, does Naruto have the Rasenshuriken yet? If not, lack of piercing damage screws him over against Luffy’s rubber physiology as he doesn’t have the AP advantage.
If this is Naruto in his strongest 7A form, then he would have sage mode, which lets him use the thrown rasenshuriken. He also has kunai and shuriken, and can summon a toad with a sword so he has ways to harm.
In regards to Luffy having preccog: Naruto also has some precog, that's functionally very similar to early series descriptions of Observation Haki (reading the opponent's intention to predict their actions). Though Naruto's is probably not as good as Luffy's it should at least have better range than his.
Naruto's best shot would be using clones and sage mode, but the number of clones he can use is limited in the forms he would be using here, and when he goes for a rasenshuriken his chakra runs out faster. Naruto's generally a better trickster and strategist, but haki would let Luffy deal with most of Naruto's tricks.
Overall I think Luffy would be able ot outlast Naruto's sage mode stuff, and once he did that it would just be a small matter to get past base Naruto's clones to win. I think Luffy takes this.
It is unknown to me whether Naruto can throw FRS in his base form as he pretty much spend most of the war in his Chakra Mode or Sage Mode, and even then, he isn’t seen using FRS in his base form.
If this is 4th Ninja War Naruto, then KCM is not counted as it has it own key. So, basically Base and Sage Mode Naruto I believe
His Sage Mode should be stronger than when he fought Pain. Naruto has Limited Durability Negation via his Frog Strike so Luffy’s High Durability won’t be much of a problem if he could land it. Though Luffy has his own Durability Negation in his Red Hawk so I guess it even out.
The reason Naruto couldn't throw the original Rasenshuriken was because chakra like that can't be continuously controlled and supplied once it gets away fromthe source of chakra, your body. Sage mode allows you to control nature chakra which is naturally seperate from your body, which should be what allows him to control the thrown FRS. So based on the mechanics of the technique, he shouldn't be able to throw FRS in base even if he's stronger.
Well, with all things considered, Luffy would beat Naruto the moment he loses Sage Mode and it's more likely he'll dodge the FRS with his Future Sight, and the stat difference makes him more likely to gain the edge in that matter.
Naruto can use a thousand clones to massacre Luffy from anywhere, so his precognition is useless (i think). Even on base, Naruto can use the Fuuton Rasengan (which has Fuuton properties) and Rasenshuriken. With KCM (pre-war ninja), he can use the Rasenshuriken at long range and expand it, just as he can use mini-rasenshurikens.
But with the Kyuubi Naruto, Naruto would have an advantage as it can not be touched and can use devastating blows affecting thousands of meters.
However, Luffy is much more powerful and durable, and could beat him in one or more attacks, if he hits Base or etc, but... If Luffy scales at 800+ megatons, I think the AP advantage is not huge enough that Naruto does not damage him.
Can this Naruto use KCM variants? I asked above and I got that he can only use Sage Mode without jumping Tiers.
Naruto spamming clones is helpful but doesn't change the fact that Luffy could just Gattling them and poof them with no effort.
Why would Kyuubi Naruto not be touched? Elemental Intangibility? Haki bypasses that. Luffy's range is similar so he's not getting caught that easily when he can see several seconds in the future to prevent getting tagged or even letting Naruto perform the attack.
G2 Luffy is comparable to Zoro who mid-diffed Pica, the one with the 838MT feat. He even did it while Pica amped himself with Haki and Zoro still stomped him.
I believe that Naruto KCM has been up tier. So disregard ...
Not if Naruto uses spamms of Rasengans, Fuuton Rasengans and Rasenshuriken, as he did against Kurama or equal to Gaara, from all angles. Even if Luffy has power, I do not know if Luffy could get all the clones and the truly Naruto. As far as I know, this ability is a spamming attack, Luffy would need to throw his arms at each of them and as the speed is equalized, I do not know if he would hit all the clones quickly, before they hit him with several rasengans and rasenshurikens.
KN Naruto has a protective field, which is not punctured by a sword that cuts / affects the hardness of a diamond and that field has acidic properties. And I do not remember Luffy being able to move several thousand meters, I think he does this by stretching but it takes a little time for that (I think!). Anyway, I think Luffy could dodge by what you said.
Okay, but would that justify going to High 7-A? Is not it would be scaling normally? But I'm fine with it. Still think it would give Inconclusive.
@Most - There's a calculation for Fujitora that needed to be altered, and the accepted time-frame KE came out at High 7-A, so Luffy's Gear 3rd will scale to High 7-A, while Gear 2nd may or may not be affected.
Ignore that inconsistency. I haven't slept last Night.
Luffy could just go G2 and get the speed amp to gain the upper hand against a Clone barrage. He can also slap them with a wide attack instead of just punching each one of them. Plus, if Naruto is starting in Sage Mode I think he couldn't spam clones (I don't remember quite well but in his fight with Pain it was stated that he could only use a bunch of clones while in SM).
I also don't know if Luffy's Haki would tell him where the true Naruto is, but if that's possible he'd aim for him.
I don't get what are you saying with the forcefield.
Yes, Luffy's range is him stretching his limbs. In a speed equalized match that move will be done at the same speed, unless the speed amp is counted on. Luffy is also a very agile fighter who tends to avoid most of the attacks but is also a tank. He could resist the regular Rasengan and Fuuton Rasengan but the Rasenshuuriken is out of his paygrade for the hax.
We're not sure about the scaling. This match might be outdated in a couple days for all we know.
I'm taking into consideration that Naruto and Luffy would start at Base. Naruto has Shushin, KN (which increases his power, speed and durability each time a tail is born) and Mode Sennin, all amplificates your speed. So his speed would still remain the same with Luffy's, probably. As far as I can remember, this is only possible via Third Gear, but its speed is get down.
I think this is headcanon.
Naruto has a force field with acidic properties and great resistance to blunt and pierce attacks. That red aura when he uses the Kyuubi Chakra.
So ... It would stay the same, right? Naruto is also a agile and smart fighter, and after Jiraiya's death, has become better. Fuuton Rasengan is still fuuton, so I think its durability would still be affected in Base and 2nd Gear. Third and Four Gear, only Rasenshuriken, but spamming clones with such attacks would still work.
He can still use KN as he sees fit ... He did this in the final fight against Sasuke to tank Amaterasu. Kurama Mode has not changed that, I think! And I do not think Base Naruto is still Mountain, after Kurama's full power gain and SOSP chakra. I think we can only consider until the Pain Saga or a little above.
Ah ... Sorry! But then, a barrage of Fuuton Rasengans (hundreds of them) could beat Luffy.
In this case G3 and G4 are restricted, so I think Naruto could win in most scenarios. Luffy's power would be less than 2x above Naruto.
I'm pretty certain Gear 3rd Luffy is simply equal to Base Luffy's speed. Nothing really implies he slows down from base. It's just made apparent that he needed Gear 2nd to defeat Lucci, as Gear 3rd and Base were both incapable of landing successful blows on him.
The biggest difference is that Luffy is going to see everything Naruto tries before he even comes up with it.
I think we need more input about what forms does Naruto have access to in this fight, because Sage Mode is limited to a few fatal shots and KN is unlikely to be used in a fight (he used just to negg the Amaterasu using the Chakra cloak), and I'm not sure where the KCM fits in the scaling.
And without their stronger forms, Luffy's power is a little higher than Naruto's. Soon, Fuuton Rasengan would be much more effective and Luffy's Amp Speed would be counter by shushin and others. Mode Sennin further increases his speed, what took Naruto advantage on speed. About KN... Nothing prevents him from using it to fight him. It even increases the characteristics and all Jinchuurikis who have control over their bijuu can do so (via Killer B, Gaara and others) We should use only Naruto from the Pain Arc.
Naruto and Luffy have the same speed. He would not stop Naruto from using clones. Although Luffy sees seconds in the future, until Luffy moves up to him and attacks him, Naruto already could execute his jutsu.
I am talking about both individuals, not both mixed. Naruto could still turn into KN, putting up much of its speed and durability as the number of tails increases.
If Luffy sees that Naruto is gonna summon the clones in 5 seconds and he can close the distance between them in less time he'll do before he can activate the Jutsu. It's not like he'd wait until the last second.
But how do we know the difference between 4th War Sage Mode and a hypothetical KN? He didn't used it and it doesn't have a key. I don't think it'd be allowed.
And it will not do any good ... He would have to go in Base form for this, and Naruto tends to start with Kage Bushin, mainly to see the abilities of the enemy. And the clones are summoned from the moment Naruto moves his fingers. There would be no time for intense combat.
What? Brother ... I told you to use Naruto from the Pain Saga, which has set keys. Exactly because there is a power gap between them.
I'll say it again. If Luffy attacks seconds before Naruto even thinks on moving his fingers he'll be stopped right on the spot. He's watching the future and if he has the chance to prevent it, he'll do it. This "no time for intense combat" argument doesn't work here.
It's not me who controls this thread's setting. If the OP doesn't feel like using Pain arc we need to know the difference. 4th War KN Naruto is hypothetical since he didn't used it so it can't be used as an argument.
Because he still wastes a little time to use the 2nd Gear.
Yes, and Naruto would be sitting there having a cup of tea while watching Luffy go up to him. He would not be seeing Luffy come up to him and would not hasten his movements or anything like that. Yes, you make a lot of sense!
Yes, and Naruto can still use KN, it's still part of Tier. Soon, his argument that he can not use it falls to the ground because he used it against Sasuke and is that of Naruto KN1 ~ KN3 and all Jinchuurikis can use it, so Naruto scales at that.
He doesn't need to use it tho. Even if they are equalized to Luffy's highest calced speed feat (Mach 909) and they start at 4km he'd only need 0.012s to cross the distance (unless I screwed the maths up).
Look, Luffy would take advantage over Naruto's moves. If Naruto sees Luffy's punch he'll dodge or block instead of still going on with the clone tactic before he even start the movement.
I really want to hear another opinion about the KN because he didn't used after Pain's fight and it's being used as an argument for some reason. If he can use it, fine, I concede, but it's not in-character when he has Sage Mode to use KN.
What? Being 4km away, Naruto would have an even greater advantage. Even as they begin and Luffy has seen the future with Naruto stirring his hands to use his jutsu and he accelerates to try to stop it, the time that Naruto spends to move his hands would be much less than 0.012s. Soon, until Luffy reached him, Naruto would have made clones.
Or not, for the reasons above.
Naruto KN was used in the fight against Pain, he reached up to 8 tail with it. Naruto can still get angry and use it, either for whatever reason, by being caught, by being frustrated or otherwise.
Look, this will be the last time I'll explain this and if you don't get it I'll stop arguing it because I'm really tired and I don't want to get heated over a dude who's repeating the same argument despite having the explanation above of why that wouldn't work.
I'll explain it with a scale of time:
0 Seconds: Luffy sees Naruto summoning his clones in 5 seconds, meaning that Naruto would move his hands in 3 or 4 seconds, or even closer to 5 considering his speed.
1 Second: Luffy attacks. Naruto hasn't started to move yet.
1.012 Seconds: Luffy's punch reach Naruto. Naruto dodges/blocks, nullifying the action he was going to do 3 seconds later.
Hopefully you'll get it now.
Naruto only stacked the basic KN (changing his eyes and whiskers) when Kurama got angry for Nagato's words while he was in Sage Mode. He hasn't stacked them and can't do it at will or with little frustrating acts without proof. Nagato was pretty much provoking Naruto and Kurama at the same time and that's why that happened.
When using Sage Mode Naruto only gets angry over really bad reasons (like Hinata being stabbed, which was enough to make him go 6 tails).
On top of that, Sage Mode and KN are two different ordeals of scaling, and they aren't too different from each other (in Pain arc) when we see the different outcomes between SM Naruto vs Pain and KN Naruto vs Pain. The difference exists, but Pain was still able to fight back despite being outmatched.
WTF? Where do you get it from? Naruto would summon his clones in a few seconds? Stop with the extremely stressed and illogical headcanon. Naruto ALWAYS uses his clones early in the battle (No Talk Jutsu, obviously). He's done it since Naruto Classic! Where the hell are you taking Naruto it would take 2 to 3 seconds to move your hands? I do not even take a second to do the same hands position as Naruto and Naruto is as fast as Luffy. That is, it has no meaning. At the same time that Luffy moves, Naruto will also move at the same speed to make his jutsu, no matter if Luffy could see the future or not. In short, the battle begins, Luffy will see seconds in the future and while making his move, Naruto does his move at the same time, so Luffy can not undo this, especially several kilometers away. Just to that effect, Naruto moves his hand a few inches. Even if we consider that Naruto moves by 30cm for that, while Luffy needs 0.012s to get to Naruto at 4km ... Naruto would need 0.00000096985s to move at his hands.
Dude ... I'm not talking about him piling up the powers, stop answering what I did not say. And Naruto transforms when he gets frustrated or asks for Kurama power. He got frustrated with Jiraiya and asked to borrow several times, and also turns when he gets angry or badly damaged. He can use his chakra to boost his speed (which I call KN0) and if he gets frustrated, he can turn around and get KN1 and so on. That's what I said.
What? I did not understand anything you said at any time. I did not say that Naruto would stack powers, said that he can use them in different MODES (obviously, or use one or use the other), not together and stacking each other.
Okay, I'm done. I won't try to explain the process again because you're misunderstanding it. It's pissing me off to repeat myself so I'll skip this part. Luffy has Future Sight and can prevent Naruto from using his moves and that's something you can't deny.
The Basic KN isn't as useful as Sage Mode and again, he hasn't used it until end of the arc after he became Ninja Jesus. And he used just to deflect the Amaterasu, not to gain a power up, meaning that he doesn't need it.
It's out of character to use KN after Pain arc because KCM is better in any possible way.
Same argument debunked. I will not repeat what I said several times. If you think you see the future, it indicates that Luffy would start with motion advantage in a battle with equalized speeds and such absurd headcanon ... No problem!
Dude, drop the topic. I won't try to explain it again because you're just not getting the point whether you're ignoring it or you just don't get the mechanic. Repeating this point is only pissing me off and I don't want to.
You're using a Naruto that the OP isn't using so the point is moot.
>Literal manga scene where Future Sight is used that way
Sure. Like I said, let's drop the topic.
What accusation? I'm telling you that strongest 7-A Naruto is 4th War Sage Mode.
Luffy's stronger. Rasenshuriken is molecular hax, not AP.
I asked above how many clones can Sage Mode Naruto summon at the same time because for some reason I remember him barely being able to summon a few while in SM for some mechanics reasons (but I'm not sure).
Luffy's precog is better than SM's. Luffy had regular Precognition and was still fodderized by a Future Sight user.
> Speed equals. > Luffy has precog soon, will move before Naruto.
I guess you do not know that both Naruto and Luffy are going to move at the same time, none have an advantage over each other at speed.
Or you're just ignoring it for some reason. Like I said, just get off topic! Soon, it is impossible for Luffy to anticipate Naruto and no matter how much you feel about it. Will not happen!
That does not prevent me from using KN. Both are scaled by the same calculation. If you're telling me it's valid to use "more powerful forms," but by an unknown margin, then I'm okay with it and I can rephrase what I said.
No. The battle would begin and both would make their move at the same time. Luffy would not move first because he can see the future and know what will happen.
No ... Both have the same speed. For Luffy attack Naruto, he needs to get close. For Naruto to make his jutsu, he just needs to move his hands and Naruto, in 90% of cases, begins the battle with clones. Soon, Naruto needs less time to complete his move, so no matter if Luffy can see the move in the future, he can not stop it.
I'm not too invested in this thread, but I was informed that a couple users here do need to calm down. Then again, HST crossovers in general do tend to. It's fine to continue debating, but people do need to do it in a more polite and calm matter. I'll only close it if majority consensus prefers it though.
The strongest 7A Naruto unless I missed something is the Fourth War Arc Naruto, the one before he actually gains full Kurama control. So no, Sage Mode fused with Ninetails Chakra Mode is not a thing.
Frog Kata is not better, the best advantage it has is the element of surprise. Naruto's lack of a haki equivalent, Luffy's rubber body and AP superiority renders that surprise rather null. There's no outer defense to ignore, all of Luffy's body even to his bones is elastic.
... How are shadow clones better versatility, what? Plus, they can actually be dealt with without much fuse. A combination of precognition seconds ahead and G2 speed amp would be rather effective shutting Naruto's attempts down or doing away with them using precise strikes.
Also CALACA, Naruto can summon Shadow Clones as normal. He is limited only when he has clones left behind gathering nature energy for him to recharge immediately once his current reserves are out. Something about summoning too many making his chakra get disturbed and dispel the clones gathering sage chakra.
@DDM right now the thread is okay. I don't know where the claimed accusations comes from, but I'll admite that I almost heated myself a while ago.
Oh, I think I know the problem. You think Luffy can only do this at the beginning in the match. I concede, Naruto has the chance to summon at the beginning of the fight, but my argument was aiming in a general way and not only at the beginning.
Naruto literally need to know that Luffy's watching the future. Luffy will move before because he's watching Naruto's actions before they take place. I have explained this a lot of times and I won't repeat anymore this part. Is up to the other people to vote now based on the present arguments.
Edit: Thank you Lancelot. So Naruto has to choosebetween spamming to defeat Luffy as soon as possible or summon a few to get other two clones gathering natural energy, correct? Both ways are dangerous. First option would leave him defenseless if he can't put Luffy down in the meantime and the second option is also dangerous since he'll have less clones to stop Luffy in place to gain more time in Sage Mode.
Naruto usually starts with Kage Bushin, does this from Naruto Classic. He does not need to know that Luffy can see the future and therefore, the possibility of Luffy anticipating Naruto when he tries to create his starting clones is impossible.
Still, Naruto can simply create more and more clones, he does not necessarily have to let his clones run out.
After that, if the clones are over, yeah... Luffy has a good chance to antecipate the clones creation, I never denied that Luffy could anticipate in MIDDLE THE BATTLE.. I said from the beginning that he can not anticipate the first use and that this could be fatal to Luffy, thanks to Naruto can spamming Rasengans, Fuuton Rasengans and Rasenshuriken.
Sage Mode, he has few. I think 3 or 5 clones and can use 2 rasenshurikens, before returning to Base, because creating many makes the clones that are gathering natural energy are dissipated (I think that's it!)...
So Naruto can't spam on Luffy while in Sage Mode even at the start of the fight. 2 FRS isn't too hard to dodge even without precognition and Naruto'd lose Sage Mode if he opens with it, which he won't because he's not an idiot.
This supports more my vote on Luffy in the scenarios I speculated above. Naruto has not enough clones to out-number Luffy (since he has been fighting in numerical disadvantage before even Pre-Timeskip) and his stamina is not good enough to outlast Luffy.
Naruto doesn't actually usually start with kagebushin by this state, as they are more of a tactical helping tool. His usual tactic of drowning enemies is barely a thing, but he'll totally use however many he thinks he needs be it for some special maneuver or more coordinated strike.
I have literally no clue what you mean luffy can't anticipate it. We dont act like a Character's precog goes online the moment the match starts and that he's just in a state of limbo before that, see literally any Ahzek Ahriman thread. Even if Naruto spammed right at the start, which I doubt, Luffy already knows clones are coming and can start thinking what to do from the start of the match.
And no, Ninetails Chakra Mode Naruto can abuse Rasengan and Rasenshurinken, but not clones. Tell me how many times he abuses the nunber of his clones in the war that isn't to assist multiple battlefields when he first joins in. He uses a few tactically or just prefers his chakra cloak abilities and CQC.
Naruto does not start with Kage Bushin in Sage Mode, for different reasons. The first one, he had clones that could be affected. The second use, he literally knew the weakness of something and went with it. He used spamming clones several times, either against Gaara, or against Mizuki, Kaguya and etc., etc. Gigantic enemies are not a problem!
As I said several times and I will repeat for the last time ... Luffy can not prevent this in the START OF COMBAT, so again bringing this is simply irrelevant. His argument is the same as that used by Calaca, who did not understand what I said from the beginning. I did not argue about him not being able to anticipate them in the midst of combat or how he's going to deal with them, or with multiple barrages of energetic attacks.
Naruto used various spamming attacks against Kurama. He can do it with anyone he wants, he's done it before. What Plot let him do or not does not matter. It's like arguing that Luffy can not anticipate because he never did. Have you the skill and shown it before? So Naruto can do it and repeat it.
Only if he have clones storing natural energy. If it does not, it can spamming clones normally, at least, that's what I remember and what's on Wikia (and what was said by Lancelot) and so can catch Luffy with Rasenshuriken amid the spam of rasengans and fuuton rasengans. And I highly doubt that Naruto will continue in the same strategy when he realizes that Sage Mode can not handle Luffy, as you said, he is not stupid.
So ... Naruto just does not have several clones if it stores natural energy. If not, everything happens normally.
No, I am not talking about capability I am talking about mentality. Even against the Fox, Naruto abused shadow clones to make as many big attacks as he could on a gigantic target. Trying to drown someone in numbers is not something Naruto does as much later, and is not even really done during the War so I don't see him doing it here. A few clones? I could see that happen.