FANDOM


  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    Incon
    14:18, June 5, 2019

    Batman (Post-Crisis) vs Wolf (Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice)

    8-C forms

    SBA

    Speed Equal

    Who wins?

    Batman: 6 (CryoTheMayo, Psycho, EmperorDoom, Lancelot, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir Ovens)

    Wolf: 6-7 (Mr. Bambu, Steve Pogi Paitao, Elizhaa, Milly Rocking Bandit, Zarathustra(?), Jimboydejuan12, CCmac)

    Thunder McQueen: 1

      Loading editor
    • Bump

        Loading editor
    • Pretty sure Batman had samurai training, unless I'm mistaken. What is Batman's standard non-prep aresenal?

        Loading editor
    • What the profile has listed as standard arsenal

        Loading editor
    • I'm giving this to Batman. His standard equipment is extremely diverse and potent. Most of Wolf's equipment isn't impressive. Batman's gauntlets have also deflected Katana slashes before, IIRC so it's not like Wolf will be able to slash through the batsuit or anything.

      Tbh Batman's tech and suit makes me think this might be a stomp.

        Loading editor
    • Wolf's resurrection says no stomp.

        Loading editor
    • Resurrection means absolutely nothing. Batman can win via incapcitation or KO. Wolf also wouldn't grow stronger or gain some sort of advantage by resurrecting, it just means Batman has to stomp him twice or thrice instead of once.

      I'm not sure if it was Post-Flashpoint Batman (probably) but Batman, or rather Bruce Wayne, has a canonical feat of fighting for 28 hours straight. Wolf isn't going to exhaust Batman even remotely with just a few resurrections.

        Loading editor
    • Wolf can surprise him. That's easy. Resurrecting immediately behind someone and doing a deathblow is an incredibly useful and potent ability. I agree Batman is much more likely than most to incap (though he is willing to kill, so that removes this restriction somewhat), but stamina isn't the point- the point is that a surprise deathblow will literally one-shot. 

      " His standard equipment is extremely diverse and potent. Most of Wolf's equipment isn't impressive."

      Not really. They both maintain a lot of the same sort- disorientation and the like. Wolf's standard equipment allows summoning, explosions, fire, and distraction, among others. 

      "Batman has deflected katana slashes before"

      Yeah, but so does everyone in Sekiro. The purpose is to destroy their posture to OHK them. Being deflected adds to that.

      While we're on the topic, Batman pretty regularly struggles with a single enemy of his own AP, or at least groups of them, whereas insert Oniwa Gyoubu feat of taking down an army of similar AP people via skill alone, and Wolf > Oniwa. 

      I'm tired as hell so I can come back to this, but give the shinobi his due. Voting Wolf for now. 

        Loading editor
    • >Batman struggles with people of his own AP

      Batman this rarely happens in any capacity to Batman

        Loading editor
    • > rarely

      What

      Literally all of his villains

      Like yeah he comes out on top but he does struggle

        Loading editor
    • Okami-dono FRA.

        Loading editor
    • Imma post my counter argument in a bit.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      *snip*
      

      Daily reminder Batman has sixth sense precognition to warn him of that sort of thing

      Fair

      I mean, Batman fights against katana wileders all the time, and I doubt Wolf will knock him off his game enough to instantly end the fight.

      Batman’s literal entire existence is based around the fact that he’s not a fighter hindered around superior or equal AP. And if it’s skill that the argument is about, Batman has defeated people on stupid levels of skill. Like, 25,000+ years of experience (Vandal Savage for example), and those aren’t even among the most skilled people Batman has faced and overcome. In terms of struggling with 8-Cs, well....

      Casually yeets Lynx

      Beats Red Hood with prep in a few moves

      Stomps Red Hood 1v1 when he has no prep

      Easily beats Hush down

      Yeets Lady Vic and Stallion

      Stomps Merlyn

      Beats Catwoman

      Keeps up with Wonder Woman in skill while otherwise engaged in the middle of a call

      Easily defeats David Cain

      Beats Azreal in a sword fight despite having weaker weaponry and not being a primarily lethal weapon user

      Beats Grundy, who out APs him by alot

      Holds off a Apokalyptian super weapon with just a sword

      I got more scans but I don’t want them all in one post.

        Loading editor
    • I can keep going though.

        Loading editor
    • Say though, does Wolf have any really good resistance to Pressure Points?

        Loading editor
    • I think Batman wins by incaping/KOing Wolf, Bats' go to move is KO and rarely does he go for the kill.

      Also while I know Wolf is very skilled id say Bats has the skill advantage and in a fight like this that means ALOT.

      So all in all I say Bats wins via Incap/KO and Skill Advantage.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, Batman has one of the most rigid no-kill rules in all of fiction. It's extremely rare for him to go against his moral code due to his discipline. He will always go for incap/KO before any other method.

      @Mr. Bambu

      "Yeah, but so does everyone in Sekiro. The purpose is to destroy their posture to OHK them. Being deflected adds to that."

      Not the deflection I am referring to. What you are thinking of is either outright deflection with weapons or armor. Batman has outright deflected bladed weaponry with his gauntlets alone. His Batsuit is made out of the same material as his gauntlets IIRC. Wolf isn't going to cut through Batman any time soon. And as another poster mentions, Batman has precog so Wolf is going to have an absurdly hard time getting the drop on Batman.

      You also have to note that Batman has Stealth Mastery that far transcends anything that Wolf can do. Batman has literally vanished in-front of the Justice League. Superman and the Martian Manhunter have both noted that they can't even detect Batman when he is sneaking into enemy territory.

      Batman also has access to Pressure Points, enabling him to easily incapcitate Wolf with a few well-placed jabs.

      "Not really. They both maintain a lot of the same sort- disorientation and the like. Wolf's standard equipment allows summoning, explosions, fire, and distraction, among others. "

      Comparing the arsenal of Batman and Wolf is just...laughable.

      Batman's standard arsenal includes:

      200,000 volt Batsuit. Flashbangs. Tranquilizer darts. Taser Gun. Freeze Ray. Can spam explosives. Trackers that can  stop Wolf from getting the drop on him. Camo. Holograms.

      Wolf's arsenal includes:

      Flame Vent (not useful. Batman has anti-fire capability). Sabimaru (requires Wolf to hit Batman to proc poison). Divine Abduction (Batman has trackers, precognition and decades of training to deal with something like this). Finger Whistle (not useful). Firecrackers (potentially useful for stuns but, again, Wolf isn't going to just slash Batman and win nor can Wolf touch Batman with the 200k volt suit). Invisibility (Batman can see through invisibility with his mask). Teleportation (legitimately useful).

      Overall, Wolf has very little going for him in regards to his equipment. I can picture his Lightning Reversal helping against Batman but it's doubtful that Wolf would be able to predict or react to Batman's suit conducting 200,000 volts.

      I'm just not seeing Wolf's win con here. He seems to be heavily outclassed from my perspective.

        Loading editor
    • @Yobo

      Daily reminder that thanks to the massive inconsistencies of Batman and if anyone felt so inclined, you could pull up literally dozens upon dozens of scans that show complete opposite situations, in which he gets outplayed by people like Joker and Quinn, outfought by people like Bane or even Killer Croc of all people, and so on. Meaning he himself has inconsistent showings of skill. Wolf does not.

      And, to address the katana thing, while that is a minor point with little to do with how this will actually play out, the katana isn't Wolf's only weapon. It is just his main weapon. 

      His abilities exist, his tendency to use them effectively are limited and his feats of skill are regularly outtrumped. 

      @Psycho 

      Once again, SBA says Bats is willing to kill. The opposite of this is the main reason he won't in-comics, his code says no deaths. Here says otherwise. So the whole "Bats won't kill" thing doesn't really ever reliably apply to a VS Debate.

      @Cryo

      How the deflection is applied is irrelevant. The point is that even if you block an attack, you are still being acted on in some way- some force is beating you about regardless of whether or not you take damage.

      And... no I don't, really. Bats has insanely good stealth, to be fair. Wolf also has good stealth. Both can move past those with vastly heightened senses and be fine. And before you show eighty scans declaring Batman once snuck up the left nostril of the Presence with Michael looking directly at him and nobody noticed, understand that there are an equal amount of opposite scans. In the end he falls somewhere in between. 

      Something something pressure points then kills then gets stabbed through the chest cavity.

      To counter the notes you said on Batman's stuff. Tazer requires he hits Wolf, as do the other abilities. Explosives and other need-to-hit abilities get hard countered by a shield. "Camo" lol. Holograms aren't new when Wolf has defeated Lady Butterfly. 

      So downplay Wolf, feel free. But what you're saying isn't fully the truth, just part of it.

      Wolf can literally one-shot via Deathblow, has a means to achieve that Deathblow, reliably out-skills in terms of literally yeeting armies of comparable enemies to Bats casually/with difficulty yeeting a single comparable enemy. Wolf can hard-counter much of Bats' arsenal and his own arsenal ain't bad either. He also is skilled in fighting those that specialize in dodging- he kills the shinobis/shinobi hunters with pretty casual ease.

      Now, here, I could say "lol I don't see how bats can win" but I'll just skip that part, yes?

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      How the deflection is applied is irrelevant. The point is that even if you block an attack, you are still being acted on in some way- some force is beating you about regardless of whether or not you take damage.

      Batman literally smacks bladed weapons away. Are you seriously not seeing why this is an issue?

      And... no I don't, really. Bats has insanely good stealth, to be fair. Wolf also has good stealth. Both can move past those with vastly heightened senses and be fine.

      Batman's profile specifically mentions Superman and Martian Manhunter not even being able to see him and has Batman vanishing in-front of people. You are comparing a man outdoing the senses of a god to a man evading the senses of man and beast. They have little comparison.

      Something something pressure points then kills then gets stabbed through the chest cavity.

      Something something precognitve movements into pressure points into second kill

      Explosives and other need-to-hit abilities get hard countered by a shield.

      What shield does Wolf have?

      "Camo" lol.

      Oh, I'm sorry. Are stealth-related tools suddenly irrelevant in a battle between shinobi? Very logical.

      Holograms aren't new when Wolf has defeated Lady Butterfly. 

      Sure. Doesn't mean it doesn't give Batman a powerful tool to trick Wolf with, especially when Wolf has no method of destroying said hologram or knowing that it is fake.

      So downplay Wolf, feel free. But what you're saying isn't fully the truth, just part of it.

      You haven't even said anything that argues against my points.

      Wolf can literally one-shot via Deathblow

      He doesn't even one-shot with Deathblow in his own universe outside of mooks.

      has a means to achieve that Deathblow

      200,000 volts stops him from touching Batman. Batman can bat away his katana. Batman is a master of 127 martial arts and he can spam ranged weapons, explosives, freezing tools, etc. Can you actually explain how Wolf is meant to posture break Batman?

      reliably out-skills in terms of literally yeeting armies of comparable enemies to Bats casually/with difficulty yeeting a single comparable enemy

      Are you seriously stating that Wolf 'out-skills' Batman for defeating mooks outside of cutscenes, when he can easily just sneak past most of them? Do you even have any evidence of Wolf defeating 'armies' of mooks? Especially without having to use resurrection?

      I'd also appreciate evidence that random armies of mooks are 'comparable' to Batman.

      He also is skilled in fighting those that specialize in dodging- he kills the shinobis/shinobi hunters with pretty casual ease.

      Shinobi Hunters don't fight like Batman and are nowhere near his skill level. Nor do they have his equipment. How is this relevant to Wolf vs Batman?

      Now, here, I could say "lol I don't see how bats can win" but I'll just skip that part, yes?

      Refrain from the salt, please.

        Loading editor
    • Seriously. That doesn't matter in terms of Wolf's particular form of combat. So long as it comes into contact with the person, the force is applied and posture is damaged.

      And you're using general terms such as god, man, and beast. The fact that literal deities exist in Sekiro (See: Divine Dragon) seems to mean little here.

      A loaded umbrella. One of the many prosthetic tools.

      Not really. You're claiming Batman's arsenal somehow vastly outdoes Wolf's, and using the singular word "camo" as a defense to that. Apologies for finding that bit humorous. 

      Actually it does. Prior knowledge pretty severely mitigates the blow of that. 

      Yes I have. You have just quietly ignored what I've said because you have made a decision already.

      > He doesn't one-shot

      Okay now let's talk about how much you just revealed about your knowledge on Sekiro. First of all. A deathblow does unironically one-shot those who wouldn't have Immortality Type 2, on the basis that it literally tears up your guts and insides. 9/10 you're being impaled through multiple organs. On to the "mook" comment... Lady Butterfly, Serpent. Done.

      He doesn't need to touch Batman. He has weapons for this reason.

      "Master of 127 martial arts" isn't a feat, it is a statement. While I consider it legitimate, you only really need to be a master of one to out-do an opponent so long as you are better at that singular art than they are in their 127. And Wolf has that. Wolf literally outdoes armies of equally powerful people by skill alone. So that bit is irrelevant.

      Actually explain? The same way you'd do any other way. Hit them until they drop. You say "Bats could bat away his weapons", which he can't since a fair amount of them are literally attached to Wolf and, to be clear, Wolf absolutely rofls in terms of Lifting Strength. He won't be taking anything in that department any time soon. Furthermore, the rest of those have already been discussed and hard countered in that post you regard as me not saying anything.

      Are... did you play Sekiro? I'm speaking of Gyoubu. The first boss (with the possible alternative to Lady Butterfly)? If you did play, you'd know of the Eavesedropping mechanic, correct? Eavesdrop on the pair of soldiers immediately after the first samurai general you find, they'll speak about Gyoubu, the general guarding the gate to Ashina Castle. Basically, the conversation amounts to one soldier believing their forces are doomed and the other reminding them of some of the more powerful members of the Ashina clan- including Gyoubu. Upon hearing Gyoubu, the other soldier will remark that it doesn't matter how many enemy soldiers there are, Gyoubu will hold the gate (that is, until you kill him). 

      Moving on from that above point, this enemy army is the Federal Army, which includes members such as the Lone Swordsman. We even see some of their corpses in his boss arena. Why is this relevant? Lone Swordsman is canonically comparable to you in strength because a single one of these soldiers is a mini-boss later in the game. Gyoubu killed an army of beings that are mini-bosses sometime after his boss fight. 

      This can be confirmed by literally anyone who has played the game. Lone Swordsman boss is present in the well area of the Ashina Reservoir. 

      So basically your argument relies on showings of skill that are either just statements of skill or lesser than what Wolf has actually demonstrated, more versatile arsenal which Wolf can counter a good amount of, and the tendency to avoid killing, which is hard countered by the SBA itself. Bats is willing to kill. He's got no reason not to.

      Not salty. Just find it funny. 

        Loading editor
    • @Mr. Bambu There's also that Wolf holds a fairly good AP advantage, so one-shotting vis aiming for the vitals and deathblows isn't that farfetched.

        Loading editor
    • Even if he didn't, Deathblows do one-shot stronger foes, presumably just by garroting them. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Seriously. That doesn't matter in terms of Wolf's particular form of combat. So long as it comes into contact with the person, the force is applied and posture is damaged.

      It DOES matter. The entire point of Deathblows is for Wolf to find an opening to do a lethal attack. He can't do that if Batman can just smack his weapon away. Batman smacking his katana would also open Wolf up to a killing blow, damaging HIS posture heavily.

      And you're using general terms such as god, man, and beast. The fact that literal deities exist in Sekiro (See: Divine Dragon) seems to mean little here.

      You are being obtuse. I am comparing Batman outdoing Superman's ridiculous senses to Wolf outdoing, at best, creatures with senses akin to their equivalents in real life.

      A loaded umbrella. One of the many prosthetic tools.

      Powerful force, such as from explosions, would overpower Wolf's posture when using it. Batman can spam explosives.

      Not really. You're claiming Batman's arsenal somehow vastly outdoes Wolf's, and using the singular word "camo" as a defense to that. Apologies for finding that bit humorous. 

      ???? That wasn't a 'singular word'. That was a list of what Batman has access to. Camo is extremely relevant due to it enhancing Batman's ability to hide.

      Actually it does. Prior knowledge pretty severely mitigates the blow of that. 

      Wolf has no prior knowledge of Batman's equipment. He won't know that Batman has holograms until after Batman has already used them once.

      Yes I have. You have just quietly ignored what I've said because you have made a decision already.

      Don't assume my thinking process. That's the fastest way to make me disregard you as foolish. My current opinion doesn't reflect my ability to alter my opinion. But your judgement on my thinking process will make me disregard you. In other words, it renders this argument useless if you don't respect my ability to intepret your argument, reflect on it and respond.

      First of all. A deathblow does unironically one-shot those who wouldn't have Immortality Type 2

      So, how many have Immortality Type 2 in Sekiro? Most of the bosses and mini-bosses?

      Lady Butterfly, Serpent

      Lady Butterfly is an old woman that relies purely on agility to survive. I honestly don't what Serpent you are referring to. Which one has Wolf killed in one Deathblow?

      He doesn't need to touch Batman. He has weapons for this reason.

      Yes, but if Wolf is forced to touch Batman to Deathblow (grapples, etc) it would hinder him greatly due to the 200,000 volts. Wolf is actively forced to avoid touching Batman, even once, even slightly.

      isn't a feat, it is a statement. While I consider it legitimate, you only really need to be a master of one to out-do an opponent so long as you are better at that singular art than they are in their 127.

      Batman has trained in 127 fighting styles. Each of which he can use to vary his fighting style, thus making him upredictable and extremely difficult to adapt to. While, yes, you obviously can defeat a jack-of-trades by being a master, it won't change the argument that Batman can adapt and alter his fighting style due to his ridiculous experience.

      which he can't since a fair amount of them are literally attached to Wolf

      I'm not referring to Batman literally smacking them out of Wolf's hands. I am referring to Batman literally interrupting Wolf's attacks.

      Are... did you play Sekiro?

      Duh? I'm not even sure why you think that singular conversation indicates that Wolf can 'take out armies'. Yeah, Gyobou can supposedly do so (according to random soldiers gossiping, which is an extremely questionable source but whatever) but didn't you say that you 'only need to be a master of one' to out-do someone that knows 127 styles? Realistically speaking, Gyobou is better geared for mounted combat (he rides a horse and wields a spear after all). Wolf relies on mobility and deflections. Wolf can slash at the horse's legs, deflect the spear and dodge or jump over Gyobou's spear.

      So, basically. Wolf can reasonably handle Gyobou due to his style countering Gyobou's reckless charging and relentless assaults. Due to Wolf's style being built around mobility, deflections and counters.

      Gyoubu killed an army of beings that are mini-bosses sometime after his boss fight. 

      Ah, yes. So Gyobou can slaughter armies of people equivalent to Wolf but then die to Wolf.

      Are you implying Wolf can slaughter armies of people equivalent to his strength, that Gyobou scales to slaughtering armies of soldiers scaling to Wolf or that Gyobou was actually weakened from slaughtering people equivalent to Wolf, thus meaning Wolf doesn't even remotely scale to Gyobou being gossiped as being capable of handling an army?

      I'm honestly not sure what your argument is for this.

      So basically your argument relies on showings of skill that are either just statements of skill or lesser than what Wolf has actually demonstrated

      Statements of skill? Batman is constantly stated to know 127 fighting styles. It's literally listed on his profile. It can full-well be used as an expression of how experienced/skilled Batman is at combat. What statements of skill for Batman does Wolf 'actually' demonstrate?

      more versatile arsenal which Wolf can counter a good amount of

      ...Which ones? The holograms?

        Loading editor
    • It also is worth noting that, again, thanks to Lifting Strength, just casually deflecting an attack from Wolf is literally impossible for Batman. It wouldn't matter either way but this avenue of discussion is pointless.

      And I agree that it is very impressive. But that isn't a deciding factor when both have bypassed enhanced senses. Superman has superior range on such range, but it isn't to the extent of matchbreaking. And no, not obtuse. Just caustic. Using vague terminology irks me.

      And yet, it wouldn't. Batman's AP is lesser than the explosions Wolf can out-posture.

      Which equates to Stealth. You're making two points out of one. 

      He has prior knowledge of illusions and understands them. The method of achieving such an illusion is immaterial to this fact. 

      Lady Butterfly being old hasn't actually changed her physicality. She still can damage you and take hits from you. A deathblow ends her life. Think really really hard about the only serpent in Sekiro. Also yes basically all bosses would have Type 2 Immortality via not minding their guts/insides being chopped to bits.

      200,000 volts isn't incredibly useful in 8-C, if you didn't know. That would probably kill your average thug, but really and truly that's 9-B at base assumptions. So 8-C Bats has 9-B passive damage, is what you're proving as your point as to why he stomps.

      Unless you know the exact martial art your opponent uses, or you have an ability to copy moves instantly by seeing them, of course you're going to be hard to adapt to. That isn't an advantage held by either side, Bats doesn't know Ashina style so my counter argument is the same as yours. Also, you're claiming Bats can adapt to his style mid-fight. A style based on maneuvers not in real life. Try again.

      Bats can't shove Wolf's weapons either way. LS is vastly in Wolf's court.

      No, I don't think you did. Not much, at least. You've shown a lack of knowledge throughout this entire debate. You don't know about the Serpent, who is literally before the first boss of the game. You didn't know about the loaded umbrella. Something just irks me here, you're either purposefully ignoring the feats of Sekiro, meaning you're untruthful, or you haven't played it, which means I need to explain everything. So which is it? Coincidentally, those random soldiers' statement is backed up by one such army of comparable soldiers being slaughtered in his boss arena. 

      And no, that's also wrong. Wolf is a shinobi trained in shinobi styles. There are such shinobis in the other army. Wolf is just better at it. So yeah. Gyoubu outskills armies of people with comparable AP, then loses to Wolf, who has better skill. Do not confuse AP and skill. 

      I am claiming Wolf > Gyoubu > Hundreds/Thousands of Comparable Enemies, all of whom are immensely skilled. This is purely a skill scaling chain, they should all be about comparable in terms of attack potency. So yes, Wolf casually outskills in terms of raw feats.

      Yes. Batman is constantly stated. Well done. Statements are usable, but aren't as good as feats. Wolf has the latter, Bats just knows how to fight in many styles. 

        Loading editor
    • To be clear. The argument for Bats is the following:

      • He can deflect and negate physical attacks (Debunked: Wolf has much higher lifting strength and thus physically batting away an attack is impossible for Batman)
      • Batman has electric armor so Wolf can't even touch him (Debunked: The energy from the electricity is literally going to be 9-B to 9-A at best, not relevant for a 8-C fight)
      • Batman outskills (Up to debate, but largely debunked: Wolf has better showings of skill and merely being a master of many forms of combat does not in fact mean you are better at any one of them than your opponent is in their small handful of styles)
      • Batman's arsenal is superior (neutral. Wolf has methodology of hard-countering his more odd abilities, and frankly no argument was ever given based on Batman actually countering Wolf's stuff aside from "dodges")
      • Batman's stealth is superior (Not to an immense degree, but I can agree he likely has better stealth)

      To add to this, Wolf's own Type 4 means any death is impossible. He also has better AP, Deathblows which literally one-hit-kill people stronger than himself, and his own utilities. Disorientation and poison are both solid. 

        Loading editor
    • Also the gossiping of the soldiers' claim of no one getting through is backed up by the single presence of a Lone Shadow in the Ashina well after killing Gyoubu, who is guarding the main and only entrance to the castle (oh and the invasion too).

      The Corrupted Monk's main way of deflection is smacking Wolf's katana with her hand BTW.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      just casually deflecting an attack from Wolf is literally impossible for Batman.

      Sure, I'll concede on lifting strength. I honestly didn't know Wolf was Class 50. It's rare for me to look at Lifting Strength.

      But that isn't a deciding factor when both have bypassed enhanced senses. Superman has superior range on such range, but it isn't to the extent of matchbreaking.

      I have to disagree here. Batman is capable of stealth to such a degree that not even Superman or the Martian Manhunter can perceive him. They both have super sight. Superman has such an absurd vision that...well, I won't go into it right now. Point is, Superman's vision is so absurd that the concept of Batman evading Superman's senses would break my ability to believe anyone can feasibly see Batman on a physical level when he doesn't want to be seen.

      Does Wolf have any feats even remotely comparable to this? I can't think of any.

      And yet, it wouldn't. Batman's AP is lesser than the explosions Wolf can out-posture.

      How do heavy enemies scale in Sekiro? The big ones that wield clubs do a great deal of posture damage to it.

      He has prior knowledge of illusions and understands them. The method of achieving such an illusion is immaterial to this fact. 

      Yes but he won't know that Batman is capable of using such illusions until after they were already used. I'm not arguing Batman can spam them. I'm arguing that Batman can trick Wolf at least once with a hologram.

      Think really really hard about the only serpent in Sekiro.

      There are two Great Serpents. The one you are probably referring to actually takes multiple deathblows. Wolf stabs it two separate times directly in the head when he already blinded it beforehand. It was also resting.

      So Wolf took multiple deathblows to kill a blinded, resting, Great Serpent.

      Bats doesn't know Ashina style so my counter argument is the same as yours.

      No. I am stating that Batman can change his style, whereas Wolf is limited. If Wolf learns or adapts to Batman, Batman can change how he fights. Wolf lacks that versatility, meaning Batman can learn how Wolf fights but Wolf will, likely, be incapable of handling Batman's diversity.

      Also, you're claiming Bats can adapt to his style mid-fight.

      Where did I say this? Do you mean me stating that Batman can adapt his fighting style? What I mean by that is Batman changing how he fights on a circumstantial basis. Not Batman adapting to Wolf.

      No, I don't think you did. Not much, at least. You've shown a lack of knowledge throughout this entire debate.

      I've played through most of Ashina dojo. I'm still getting through the rest of the game.

      You don't know about the Serpent, who is literally before the first boss of the game.

      You don't even kill the Serpent before the first boss. You just stab one of its eyes.

      You didn't know about the loaded umbrella.

      Dude. You buy it for 1,600 Sen at a location not far from where I am at. It's not even mentioned on Wolf's profile, not from what I can see.

      Something just irks me here, you're either purposefully ignoring the feats of Sekiro, meaning you're untruthful, or you haven't played it, which means I need to explain everything.

      This is a seriously arrogant statement. I apologise for not completing the entire game and analyzing information not present on Wolf's profile before discussing fictional battles involving the game. Is that what you wanted to hear?

      So which is it? Coincidentally, those random soldiers' statement is backed up by one such army of comparable soldiers being slaughtered in his boss arena. 

      Is it proven that those soldiers were slaughtered by him?

      I am claiming Wolf > Gyoubu > Hundreds/Thousands of Comparable Enemies,

      Where are you getting these figures from? Would Gyoubu even be at his peak when, as you imply, he slaughtered 'hundreds/thousands' of people comparable to Wolf?

      Yes. Batman is constantly stated. Well done. Statements are usable, but aren't as good as feats. Wolf has the latter, Bats just knows how to fight in many styles. 

      Again, what feats surpass Batman's statements?

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Batman outskills (Up to debate, but largely debunked: Wolf has better showings of skill and merely being a master of many forms of combat does not in fact mean you are better at any one of them than your opponent is in their small handful of styles)

      What showings of skill does Wolf have that would even remotely match or surpass Batman?

      Batman's arsenal is superior (neutral. Wolf has methodology of hard-countering his more odd abilities, and frankly no argument was ever given based on Batman actually countering Wolf's stuff aside from "dodges")

      Go to Batman's resistances. He resists several of Wolf's prosthetics.

      Batman's stealth is superior (Not to an immense degree, but I can agree he likely has better stealth)

      That's a horrific downplay when you compare Batman's stealth feats to Wolf's stealth feats.

      Wolf's own Type 4 means any death is impossible.

      Batman has access to Freeze Ray, which freezes his opponents solid. He can also teleport. Does Wolf only resurrect in the place he died? If so, I can think of numerous ways that Batman can trap him in an endless death loop.

      I'm going to bed, don't know if I will continue posting in this thread or not.

        Loading editor
    • And I disagree. Your singular valid point here is that Batman's stealth advantage, which isn't to some immense provable degree, somehow causes him to win in the face of Wolf either countering all of his abilities or just being better at them. 

      People in Sekiro have enhanced senses, and as you've said, he bypasses normal animals. So they aren't as good as Supes, but at close range they really aren't terribly different.

      Enemies? You mean the mooks you so readily disregarded moments ago? They don't. They'd be 9-B at best and like any other low-tier fodder in the game they'd be a fun little term called Game Mechanics. 

      Resting has no bearing on your durability, nor does blinded. 

      And Batman changing his fighting style does... what? Wolf doesn't know the styles so he doesn't have any advantage regardless, and Bats doesn't know Wolf's. 

      "Where did I say this?"

      "Batman can change how he fights. Wolf lacks that versatility, meaning Batman can learn how Wolf fights but Wolf will, likely, be incapable of handling Batman's diversity."

      Where didn't you say it. It's false, a bit of an extrapolation really, to assume Batman can somehow learn Wolf's entire styles (there are multiple styles in Sekiro, to be clear) in the span of a few minutes at best.

      But you do kill the Serpent by this key (8-C and 8-B), plus you encounter Serpent before Gyoubu. And yet you didn't know. I'm assuming your info comes from a guide somewhere.

      My arrogance isn't arrogance at all. Consider it confusion. I'm wondering why a person that claims to have played Sekiro doesn't know about 90% of the relevant knowledge, a fair amount of it which comes from the first boss or thereabouts.

      "Proven" to the extent that people were saying that he was/could do it and it's done when you get there. So yeah. 

      I'm getting the numbers from the bodies strewn in his area and the average size of a japanese army (for reference, a large army would be about 80,000, whereas a more typical army would be in the lower-thousands to ten-thousands). And yes. He did that during the siege of Ashina. Literally during or just before the events of the game. if you'd beaten the first boss you would have seen this. 

      The feat we've been discussing this entire time, for one. Ignore it if you like.

        Loading editor
    • If you plan to continously ignore evidence from myself and the game you claimed to have played, don't bother debating. It isn't a debate at that point. You've ignored the skill feat from Gyoubu, disregarded common knowledge on the game on the premise that it isn't on the profile, disregarded the Serpent because "lol you don't kill it before Gyoubu".

      Literally your argument hinges on blatantly ignoring Gyoubu's absurd skill feat in the name of blindly saying Bats is somehow comparable. And you still haven't dealt with any of the prosthetics Wolf has that Batman doesn't resist. This includes Wolf's better abilities such as the firecrackers to deafen/blind a target. 

      He can or appear at a statue. Which, again, in-game common knowledge. 

      So again, I have to ask, have you actually played Sekiro? At all? 

        Loading editor
    • I think @Mr. Bambu is correct; Wolf has the larger skill advantages here. Also, Batman's only method that I see via incap with Sealing (Knows magic that allows him to seal someone in a crystal).

      His Mind Manipulation (Can hypnotize people) looks combats inaplicable. I think everything else, Wolf can resurrect from ot heal from. So, I am voting for Wolf FRA.

        Loading editor
    • Does Wolf resist Sleep?

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      People in Sekiro have enhanced senses, and as you've said, he bypasses normal animals. So they aren't as good as Supes, but at close range they really aren't terribly different.

      Are you implying that characters in Sekiro can contend with Superman on a sensory-level?

      Enemies? You mean the mooks you so readily disregarded moments ago? They don't. They'd be 9-B at best and like any other low-tier fodder in the game they'd be a fun little term called Game Mechanics. 

      Mook refers to random enemies that serve as fodder, which accurately describes any enemy that isn't a boss or mini-boss.

      Can you show that it is only game mechanics for powerful attacks from mooks to heavily damage Wolf's posture with the Umbrella?

      Resting has no bearing on your durability, nor does blinded. 

      Deathblows are literally done by breaking your opponent's posture. I'm not arguing durability by mentiong the status of the serpent. I'm stating that it was completely exposed to Wolf's attacks and it still took him multiple Deathblows to kill it.

      And Batman changing his fighting style does... what? Wolf doesn't know the styles so he doesn't have any advantage regardless, and Bats doesn't know Wolf's. 

      If Wolf can counter or react to certain techniques that Batman uses, Batman has other options due to his diversity of knowledge. I am stating that Batman is too diverse at martial arts for Wolf to appropriately counteract Batman's styles.

      Where didn't you say it. It's false, a bit of an extrapolation really, to assume Batman can somehow learn Wolf's entire styles (there are multiple styles in Sekiro, to be clear) in the span of a few minutes at best.

      ...where did I say Batman can 'learn' Wolf's 'entire' styles? I stated that Batman can adapt to Wolf but Wolf will not be able to adapt to Batman, due to Batman having access to 127 different martial arts whereas Wolf has access to only a few of his own fighting styles.

      I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about this. Batman has less to learn about how Wolf fights. Wolf has more to learn about how Batman fights.

      But you do kill the Serpent by this key (8-C and 8-B), plus you encounter Serpent before Gyoubu. And yet you didn't know. I'm assuming your info comes from a guide somewhere.

      Alright, you are starting to irritate me. Do I have to post a screenshot of the game in my steam account with the hours played? Oh wait, I don't care.

      I didn't say Wolf doesn't kill the Serpent. I stated it takes multiple Deathblows, not one (like you stated). I also stated that he only blinds the Serpent before Gyoubu (when it didn't even know Wolf was there). Wolf doesn't kill the Serpent before he fights Gyoubu and he only damaged its eyeball when it was unaware of Wolf.

      I'm not even going to bother getting into the specifics of eyeball durability. That isn't even remotely what I was arguing. All I was arguing was that, no, Wolf doesn't kill the Serpent in one deathblow.

      I'm getting the numbers from the bodies strewn in his area and the average size of a japanese army (for reference, a large army would be about 80,000, whereas a more typical army would be in the lower-thousands to ten-thousands).

      So you are comparing a fictional army to a real life army in terms of its units? Where exactly is your evidence that the army invading Ashina is of this size, that Gyoubu fought even, say, 1,000 solo or that they were all comparable to Wolf?

      And yes. He did that during the siege of Ashina. Literally during or just before the events of the game. if you'd beaten the first boss you would have seen this. 

      I did beat the first boss, months ago. I stopped playing the game, months ago, due to obligations arising and other game releases consuming my attention span (when I had any). I sincerely don't understand why you feel compelled to belittle me in such a fashion.

      As I already stated. I'm going to bed, was only looking at another thread when I saw the notification to this thread. Not sure if I will continue posting about this.

        Loading editor
    • Schnee One wrote:
      Does Wolf resist Sleep?

      No, nevertheless, Batman does not have Sleep Manipulation on his profile.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:
      Schnee One wrote:
      Does Wolf resist Sleep?
      No, nevertheless, Batman does not have Sleep Manipulation on his profile.

      He does have tranquiliser darts though, which is what Schnee was probably thinking of.

      Also, Batman's only method that I see via incap with Sealing (Knows magic that allows him to seal someone in a crystal).

      He also has access to a freeze ray and teleportation, which can lead to Batman winning via incap.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:

      Schnee One wrote:
      Does Wolf resist Sleep?

      No, nevertheless, Batman does not have Sleep Manipulation on his profile.

      Actually he does, it's just an inherent power of his, it's a part of his equipment and he has multiple sleep grenades

      See his fight with Ruby Rose

        Loading editor
    • @Cyro none of them seem like a IC thing for Batman to do tho

        Loading editor
    • Schnee One wrote:
      Does Wolf resist Sleep?

      No, but again, projectiles are pretty casually dealt with via the Loaded Umbrella. 

      @Mayo

      No. I've even said Supes is better. I'm just saying Batman doesn't hold such an amazing stealth advantage as to completely overrule Wolf's other notable abilities. I've said this every time except when I poked fun at "god > beast lol".

      Yes. So why bring them up here? It's only game mechanics for a creature that is nowhere even remotely close to you to harm you. This is the assumption for every game. Hell, if we're on the subject, 4-C Hollows from Dark Souls when?

      Yes, Deathblows are done by breaking posture. However, the fact that they one-shot isn't related to that posture breaking. And for the record, no. A single deathblow animation killed the Serpent. The first merely blinded it because the eye was brought within close contact of Wolf.

      Wolf doesn't need to counteract his styles, simply excel to an absurd degree at his own. Which he's done. Bats has no feats comparable. His 100+ martial arts aren't equatable to Wolf's small handful.

      No, you don't have to post anything. Just show some baseline knowledge of the game before looking up a guide to tell you things. You've shown an astounding lack of knowledge on a game you're decently into (Ashina Dojo, you said). 

      And, to add to this point, again, you are wrong, though I cannot fault you with this one because it isn't as blatant as the other dozen things you've ignored. The snake is aware of Wolf in the little hut thing. The lore states that creatures in Sekiro regularly sacrifice themselves to the Serpent in order to "marry" it by letting the serpent devour them. You get into the structure people sacrifice themselves in to hide, thus the Serpent takes it as a change of heart. The lore to this is available on the Shunpou assassin just after the serpent's first area, if you kill him you'll pick up an item with the description to back this up.

      No, the low-end is based purely on the number of corpses in Ashina Castle. I just happen to also know the army is much larger based on it being set in Japan. Basically, nothing contradicts the latter but even the former displays Wolf casually slaughtering Bruce in terms of raw skill.

      Months ago? It came out just over two months ago. Surely the knowledge of the entire game can't have left your mind when Batman's feats seem to stick like glue? I feel compelled to find why you blatantly ignore relevant information about Sekiro in a versus thread when you claim over and over to have played it to the relevant point and beyond. Saying you hadn't actually played it is the kindest assumption I can make- the other is that you are belligerantly ignoring Wolf's abilities in the name of allowing Batman to win. Forgive me for not assuming the latter before the former. 

        Loading editor
    • Tranq darts aren't immensely relevant either way. He does have them, they're listed, the profile just doesn't have it all down right, it seems. 

        Loading editor
    • Multiple sleep grenades, freeze ray are things I felt like Batman would have on his profile but he does not.

      He does have freezing batarangs batering though.

      Teleportation looks applicable to himself and it is not like Wolf would make it easier for Batman to used it as BFR.

        Loading editor
    • Jesus so many massive walls of text.

      Ok so while it is true that SBA makes him willing to kill that shouldnt change his starting move, unless bloodlusted, which is KO and Incap, now if he cant do that then he’ll go for the kill but he like I said him being willing to kill shouldnt change his In-Character starting move.

        Loading editor
    • PsychoWarper wrote:
      Jesus so many massive walls of text.

      Ok so while it is true that SBA makes him willing to kill but that shouldnt change his starting move, unless bloodlusted, which is KO and Incap, now if he cant do that then he’ll go for the kill but he like I said him being willing to kill shouldnt change his In-Character starting move.

      I agree toward Standard Battle Assumptions regard the strategy:

      • State of mind: In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't. Furthermore characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.

      Only as Bloodlust will chracters be willing to kill initally or quickly

        Loading editor
    • If Wolf doesn’t have any really good resistance to Pressure Points, there isn’t anything stopping Batman from going Kenshiro

        Loading editor
    • Also, Batman’s inconsistent showings putting him somewhere in the middle is a Golden Mean Fallacy. As this wiki accepts it, Batman is the most skilled individual on Earth as he has consistent showings and statements of it. Poor decisions and portrayals on a writer’s part that don’t work as consistently are thus discarded as PIS. We do not take them into account.

        Loading editor
    • Batman FRA

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote: Multiple sleep grenades, freeze ray are things I felt like Batman would have on his profile but he does not.

      He does have freezing batarangs batering though.

      Teleportation looks applicable to himself and it is not like Wolf would make it easier for Batman to used it as BFR.

      He does, and I’m fairly certain he has multiple knock out grenades listed already.

        Loading editor
    • Higher AP doesn’t mean much anyway, considering Batman’s track record of beating people with Higher AP regularly.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:

      Schnee One wrote:
      Does Wolf resist Sleep?

      No, nevertheless, Batman does not have Sleep Manipulation on his profile.

      He does.

        Loading editor
    • Batman will go for incap while Wolf will go for the kill? Easier to kill than to incap.

      Deathblow will one-shot Batman if he is caught within it.

      Doesn't matter if Batman is a Master of 127 Martial Arts if Wolf or anyone else has better skills on one.

      Wolf also has the Ap over Batman.

      Type 4 Immorality is also something Batman can't do against but as he won't kill it won't come in play.

      Wolf wins.

        Loading editor
    • Zaratthustra wrote: Batman will go for incap while Wolf will go for the kill? Easier to kill than to incap.

      Deathblow will one-shot Batman if he is caught within it.

      Doesn't matter if Batman is a Master of 127 Martial Arts if Wolf or anyone else has better skills on one.

      Wolf also has the Ap over Batman.

      Type 4 Immorality is also something Batman can't do against but as he won't kill it won't come in play.

      Wolf wins.

      >Easier to kill than incap

      That’s a joke, right? Incapacitation is not inherently harder than killing, especially when a character’s entire arsenal is based on it.

        Loading editor
    • Batman’s 127 martial arts is just a example of a skill feat, and people fixating on it ignores the dozens of other skill feats and training he’s had. Batman has modifed, advanced, upgraded, and improved every single one of his martial arts and blended it into one styles, so it’s going to be 1 style vs 1 style anyway.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote: I think @Mr. Bambu is correct; Wolf has the larger skill advantages here. Also, Batman's only method that I see via incap with Sealing (Knows magic that allows him to seal someone in a crystal).

      His Mind Manipulation (Can hypnotize people) looks combats inaplicable. I think everything else, Wolf can resurrect from ot heal from. So, I am voting for Wolf FRA.

      This is blatantly false though. His Standard Arsenal key has dozens of methods of incapacitation listed

        Loading editor
    • TheArsenal1212 wrote: @Cyro none of them seem like a IC thing for Batman to do tho

      They are. His stuff is entirely based around not killing foes.

        Loading editor
    • When you go for Kill, you won't hold back involuntary or not while for incap you'll do. It's something instinctual, something that Batman still won't let go if he is not Bloodlusted. If you think you can incap someone faster than you can kill them, you're clearly wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Zaratthustra wrote: When you go for Kill, you won't hold back involuntary or not while for incap you'll do. It's something instinctual, something that Batman still won't let go if he is not Bloodlusted. If you think you can incap someone faster than you can kill them, you're clearly wrong.

      That’s definitely wrong. When you’re skilled or have the ooowers and abilities for it, incap is even easier. You’re thinking of incap as holding back to knock someone out, when I’m reality it’s any sort of technique that can defeat the foe without killing them. Generalizations like that ignore obvious cases such as a mindhax ability versus a single punch. Obviously the former is more efficient. Batman has numerous abilities that make incapacitation more applicable.

        Loading editor
    • I'm talking about the actual combatants not others so the fight it's in character.

        Loading editor
    • Zaratthustra wrote: I'm talking about the actual combatants not others so the fight it's in character.

      And? That doesn’t address any of the actual arguments.

        Loading editor
    • Anyway, I want one good reason why I should keep those three Wolf votes in the OP since so many of them use the Golden Mean fallacy and are pretty obviously purposefully misinterpreting Batman’s skill set

        Loading editor
    • Can some one give me a short version on why each character would win?

        Loading editor
    • Well, most of the arguments center around who is more skilled, so that needs to be concluded before anything else.

        Loading editor
    • But generally it’s “Batman incaps in character bypassing all resurrection stuff vs Wolf has better AP and Deathblows on top of resurrection”

        Loading editor
    • So far though, many of the arguments against Batman have either no taken into account the full profile or have been using the Golden Mean fallacy.

        Loading editor
    • Has anyone brought up Precog and Instinctive Reaction?

        Loading editor
    • I’m fairly certain I have, but it hasn’t been addressed I don’t think.

      Furthermore, there was also the argument that Wolf can use enhanced senses to find a hiding Batman.

        Loading editor
    • You seem to favorize Batman, why should the votes be not taken in account when people brought good arguments.

        Loading editor
    • Zaratthustra wrote: You seem to favorize Batman, why should the votes be not taken in account when people brought good arguments.

      Because those arguments are entirely based around the Golden Mean fallacy?

        Loading editor
    • Also, please don’t use easy to spot fallacies like that one. They’re really easy to point out and just clog up thread space.

        Loading editor
    • And you mean to tell me that those that voted for Wolf brought only fallacies and not stated feats/arguments from the game? Sorry to say but you can't mot Wolf's feats are fallacies with those arguments.

        Loading editor
    • Zaratthustra wrote: And you mean to tell me that those that voted for Wolf brought only fallacies and not stated feats/arguments from the game? Sorry to say but you can't mot Wolf's feats are fallacies with those arguments.

      I’m referring to the arguments about Batman’s capabilities made by Bambu which one of the other votes is based on.

        Loading editor
    • Wolf’s feats in this case would only be sufficient if the claims about Batman were true, which they are not since they are built around fallacies in this case.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      Also, Batman’s inconsistent showings putting him somewhere in the middle is a Golden Mean Fallacy. As this wiki accepts it, Batman is the most skilled individual on Earth as he has consistent showings and statements of it. Poor decisions and portrayals on a writer’s part that don’t work as consistently are thus discarded as PIS. We do not take them into account.

      It'd be a Golden Mean fallacy if I said let's average it out. But it isn't Golden Mean to take the more consistent showings, it's actually the rules for this wiki in regards to verses as inconsistent as Marvel and DC specifically. Even that said, nothing you showed puts him in comparability to Wolf's skill feat scaling to Gyoubu so moot point. 

      And the whole "Well batman beats people with higher AP regularly" bit bothers me too. He's also beaten by people lower than him (Joker is the prime example). Bats is one who thrives on prep time. He lacks such prep time here, and his profile even states his AP is much higher (4-B) given such time. 

      I believe Arsenal's point was more in line with no more IC to use than, say, punching an enemy. Which they aren't. Bats goes for martial arts and a handful of gadgets more than the rest of his stuff. 

      You should keep the three votes because it isn't Golden Mean, it is using a consistent basis. Again, wiki standard. It would be Golden Mean if I said "Well, he has two possible APs, 80,000 tons of TNT and 0.5 tons of TNT, so we'll assume 40,000.25 tons of TNT". That's taking an average. But the wiki disregards blatant outliers and absurd downplays of strength. 

      Moving on from "something something all of you are wrong because fallacy". 

        Loading editor
    • You’d be right about it being a fallacy fallacy if your argument wasn’t entirely based on it, and you quite explicitly stated that “he must be somewhere in between”. The fact still remains that in his most common showings he is portrayed on that level, so we accept him as being that level.

        Loading editor
    • Those “handful of gadgets” are what is being used to incap here anyway. And I have yet to see anything that comes close to Batman’s level of skill.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      You’d be right about it being a fallacy fallacy if your argument wasn’t entirely based on it, and you quite explicitly stated that “he must be somewhere in between”. The fact still remains that in his most common showings he is portrayed on that level, so we accept him as being that level.

      My argument isn't entirely based on it. Again, none of the scans you showed, regardless of how inconsistent they'd be in context (not really caring anymore), don't stack up to Gyoubu's feat, which Wolf upscales from. So skill is handily in Wolf's ballpark. 

        Loading editor
    • Even if you want to say that Batman isn’t the most skilled combatant in the DC Earth, which is basically a integral part of his character, he still makes the rest of the League look like chumps in the skill department, despite them of having stupid levels of skill as well.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote:
      You’d be right about it being a fallacy fallacy if your argument wasn’t entirely based on it, and you quite explicitly stated that “he must be somewhere in between”. The fact still remains that in his most common showings he is portrayed on that level, so we accept him as being that level.

      My argument isn't entirely based on it. Again, none of the scans you showed, regardless of how inconsistent they'd be in context (not really caring anymore), don't stack up to Gyoubu's feat, which Wolf upscales from. So skill is handily in Wolf's ballpark. 

      You’ve just stated that he has a feat which makes him more skilled than Batman. Burden of proof is on you to explain and show that that is true, which you have yet to do.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      Those “handful of gadgets” are what is being used to incap here anyway. And I have yet to see anything that comes close to Batman’s level of skill.

      Then you haven't been paying attention. Look at what I've said.

      Batman has a lot of martial arts and can take on a lot of other martial artists, sometimes a few on his own physical level at a time (other times, not so much).

      Wolf is > Gyoubu who can defeat a literal army of equal-AP people in terms of skill alone and was going to do so for a long time until we roll in and kill him.

      Wolf has the higher skill feat by a considerable margin, with Bats having the advantage only in number of ways he can be lesser. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote:
      Those “handful of gadgets” are what is being used to incap here anyway. And I have yet to see anything that comes close to Batman’s level of skill.

      Then you haven't been paying attention. Look at what I've said.

      Batman has a lot of martial arts and can take on a lot of other martial artists, sometimes a few on his own physical level at a time (other times, not so much).

      Wolf is > Gyoubu who can defeat a literal army of equal-AP people in terms of skill alone and was going to do so for a long time until we roll in and kill him.

      Wolf has the higher skill feat by a considerable margin, with Bats having the advantage only in number of ways he can be lesser. 

      Yes, he can do that, but that may not even matter if their skill was low in the first place. You have yet to explain what level of skill they have.

        Loading editor
    • That is just a feat of upscaling. I could say that Batman has feats of casually yeeting entire armies (which he does to some degree), but it doesn’t really amount to anything if we don’t know their level of skill.

        Loading editor
    • Here, the argument for Wolf doesn’t work because it amounts to “beating lots of people who are very skilled and have lots of AP”, but it’s unknown how much skill they have. I could say that Madara from Naruto is as skilled as Wolf because he did the same sort of thing. Furthermore, when people do match Batman, it’s usually a feat for them, not a anti-feat for him.

        Loading editor
    • "If their skill was low in the first place"

      I mean. No? The Lone Swordsman used to scale was a shinobi like Wolf. 

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      That is just a feat of upscaling. I could say that Batman has feats of casually yeeting entire armies (which he does to some degree), but it doesn’t really amount to anything if we don’t know their level of skill.

      And their AP. The Lone Swordsman is decent in skill as a shinobi who has received training, and his AP is equal to Wolf's. Gyoubu yeets anyways. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: "If their skill was low in the first place"

      I mean. No? The Lone Swordsman used to scale was a shinobi like Wolf. 

      My point is that you haven’t given how skilled those individuals were, so it’s not really a skill feat better than “he yeeted a lot of people”, which is definitely less than Batman’s skill.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote:
      That is just a feat of upscaling. I could say that Batman has feats of casually yeeting entire armies (which he does to some degree), but it doesn’t really amount to anything if we don’t know their level of skill.

      And their AP. The Lone Swordsman is decent in skill as a shinobi who has received training, and his AP is equal to Wolf's. Gyoubu yeets anyways. 

      And? That’s not really a skill feat than. It just means he trained some. Batman easily beats people like that all the time in large groups.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote: snip

      Yes it is though. You have trained martial artists as this supposed fodder. Said martial artists are proven to be at Wolf and Gyoubu's level of attack potency. So we have proven that they are in fact skillful and maintain similar AP. Gyoubu yeets anyways. Through skill.  Batman has no such feat. He fights lots of fodder and beats them, or has a fair fight against a small group of similar AP people. You saying "oh well they don't have a skill feat" would basically be the equivalent of me saying Bruce's martial arts aren't skills. Like what even. 

        Loading editor
    • In that case, there are no actual skill feats here above heating a army of martial with good AP. Which isn’t by any means a bad feat, but it’s pales in comparison to Batman making people with millennia of experience look like chumps and beating armies of people who could harm them too, which is something much less skilled individuals in the Justice League have done for many years. Some like Wonder Woman and Superman have the same feat done for centuries continuously

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote: snip

      Yes it is though. You have trained martial artists as this supposed fodder. Said martial artists are proven to be at Wolf and Gyoubu's level of attack potency. So we have proven that they are in fact skillful and maintain similar AP. Gyoubu yeets anyways. Through skill.  Batman has no such feat. He fights lots of fodder and beats them, or has a fair fight against a small group of similar AP people. You saying "oh well they don't have a skill feat" would basically be the equivalent of me saying Bruce's martial arts aren't skills. Like what even. 

      That’s not what I said anyway, and I’d even argue that’s a pretty clear Strawman.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      In that case, there are no actual skill feats here above heating a army of martial with good AP. Which isn’t by any means a bad feat, but it’s pales in comparison to Batman making people with millennia of experience look like chumps and beating armies of people who could harm them too, which is something much less skilled individuals in the Justice League have done for many years. Some like Wonder Woman and Superman have the same feat done for centuries con

      What the hell? No it isn't. Gyoubu has the same AP as them, we've established this over multiple threads. A single one of those soldiers is a mini boss later in the game after you've killed Gyoubu and let them in. It is purely a skill feat, please listen when I'm saying things. 

        Loading editor
    • I just said it was a skill feat. That’s a clear Strawman. I never said it wasn’t a Skill feat, I said it was a worse skill feat than Batman’s many, many examples of skill.

        Loading editor
    • No you didn't.

      You said it was done through AP, which it clearly wasn't, to lessen it compared to Batman's feats, who doesn't have such feats to compare to.

      It isn't strawman. I'm pointing out a falsehood in your claims. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: No you didn't.

      You said it was done through AP, which it clearly wasn't, to lessen it compared to Batman's feats, who doesn't have such feats to compare to.

      It isn't strawman. I'm pointing out a falsehood in your claims. 

      It’s a clear strawman, and I never stated anything about it being done through AP. I said they had comparable AP, the complete opposite. Which means that this is a clear straw man. Not only that, but half my post was dedicated to Batman’s comparable feats.
        Loading editor
    • I am leaning for Batman here, but I'll hold any votes until later.

        Loading editor
    • @Bambu

      I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn’t saying he beat them with good AP, I said he beat people who had good AP. Two very different things.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with @Mr. Bambu's points on the skills feats. 

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote: I agree with @Mr. Bambu's points on the skills feats. 

      His interpretation is based on a misunderstanding of my words, intentional or not.

        Loading editor
    • So. Where are Batman's feats of rofling armies of equivalent attack potency/trained enemies and coming out on top? 

        Loading editor
    • I did misunderstand your point, but your feats for Batman are nonexistent. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: So. Where are Batman's feats of rofling armies of equivalent attack potency/trained enemies and coming out on top? 

      You mean other than the examples I gave above already? None, but as I’ve stated, anyone apwho can match Batman usually has such a event treated as a feat for them, and he’s miles above people who do the similar feats over centuries and have four comparable AP enemies for centuries.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: I did misunderstand your point, but your feats for Batman are nonexistent. 

      I literally gave numerous example of that within my first few posts. Skill is not just decided by crowd fights anyway. Skill can be determined in many other ways, such as 1v1 or by experience. Experience against fighting multiple fires at once is very different from fighting 1v1

        Loading editor
    • Yes, and none of them compare to Gyoubu's feat. Your "better" skill feats are literally fighting a single enemy. Gyoubu rofls, Wolf rofls Gyoubu. 

        Loading editor
    • I’ll get back to this later, but just fighting off lots of enemies through skill isn’t a insurmountable skill feat that can’t be matched withou similar showings, unless your argument is that that’s a reason for why he would be more skilled than people like Kharn the Betrayer, for example.

        Loading editor
    • Batman is stronger than the average humans in his verse already so defeating a large mob could easily beat aided by his AP.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote: Batman is stronger than the average humans in his verse already so defeating a large mob could easily beat aided by his AP.

      That is not what I’m talking about whatsoever.

        Loading editor
    • I agree. At literally no point have we held battling an army as the highest of skill feats, even though fighting a bunch of comparable people is one of the generally better skill feats that aren't outright absurd. 

      Even more, fighting a bunch of people is not the same as fighting 1 person. In the world of fiction where you can easily match people with guns because of skill and precise fighting skills, fighting a singular person isn't just gonna get rolled over because "lol numbers" by default.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:

      Elizhaa wrote: Batman is stronger than the average humans in his verse already so defeating a large mob could easily beat aided by his AP.

      That is not what I’m talking about whatsoever.

      I know what you meant the main problem is the AP gap in DC still matters.

      You got to take it into account. The average weaker Vilain could easily have be 9-B. But 8-C weak villain is definitely stretching it for DC.

        Loading editor
    • It isn't the highest. It is simply higher than anything. I'm saying it is higher than Bats fighting a singular enemy. You're just saying "Batman has higher skill feats" without anything really to substantiate that other than fighting someone. You're not giving qualitative value to the statement. 

        Loading editor
    • Also, none of these guys had guns. Lone Swordsman is the key here. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      It isn't the highest. It is simply higher than anything. I'm saying it is higher than Bats fighting a singular enemy. You're just saying "Batman has higher skill feats" without anything really to substantiate that other than fighting someone. You're not giving qualitative value to the statement. 

      I agree. Batman might be an Extraordinary Genius and known a lot of martial arts but he still needs the skills feats. The inferences are not alone enough.

        Loading editor
    • Then we agree to disagree I'll assume, because that's not in anyway the highest sort of skill feat as far as I am concerned. Especially since the details and and context matters just as much if not more, and Gyobu is rather suited to take upon a good number of enemies.

      Also Bambu, Yobo posted quite a big number of examples above, one of those even taking on all of his rogue's gallery and winning. You are even sweeping the stealth of Wolf and Batman under "evaded super senses", like anyone in Sekiro can pull a Superman and hear across the entire planet, pick up and recognize heart beats or widen his stare to planetary levels. Martian Manhunter can easily just scan every mind on the earth without issue, yet he can't find Batman even when he is on the same general area if Batman doesn't want himself found. It just feels you are the one playing down the absurdity of this. 

        Loading editor
    • My counter argument to Bambu will come later.

        Loading editor
    • @LSirLancelotDuLacl, most of Batman's best feats are via Prep time there. Also, the argument is one who got the best fighting skills or skill gaps and nothing else.

        Loading editor
    • Oh yes, all of those skill feats fighting people up above are certainly only with prep time, aren't they?

      Please don't tell me you are buying into the prep time absurdity Elizhaa, Batman has matched people with absurd levels of experience and skill, or even groups of those, with no real prep. There's literally no prep at all in that scan Yobo posted above of Batman dealing with his rogue's gallery. He even kicked Red Hood around a second time with none of it. 

        Loading editor
    • It was Red Hood who had prep in the first scan, not Batman

        Loading editor
    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      Oh yes, all of those skill feats fighting people up above are certainly only with prep time, aren't they?

      Please don't tell me you are buying into the prep time absurdity Elizhaa, Batman has matched people with absurd levels of experience and skill, or even groups of those, with no real prep. There's literally no prep at all in that scan Yobo posted above of Batman dealing with his rogue's gallery. He even kicked Red Hood around a second time with none of it. 

      The question is taking what I see out of context. I said: " most of Batman's best feats are via Prep time there." 

        Loading editor
    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      Then we agree to disagree I'll assume, because that's not in anyway the highest sort of skill feat as far as I am concerned. Especially since the details and and context matters just as much if not more, and Gyobu is rather suited to take upon a good number of enemies.

      Also Bambu, Yobo posted quite a big number of examples above, one of those even taking on all of his rogue's gallery and winning. You are even sweeping the stealth of Wolf and Batman under "evaded super senses", like anyone in Sekiro can pull a Superman and hear across the entire planet, pick up and recognize heart beats or widen his stare to planetary levels. Martian Manhunter can easily just scan every mind on the earth without issue, yet he can't find Batman even when he is on the same general area if Batman doesn't want himself found. It just feels you are the one playing down the absurdity of this. 

      You clearly haven't read what I've posted or simply have latched onto a single facet of my points.

      Either way, stealth I've admitted are the only points Batman has going for him outside of a few easily countered tools. Even then. Planetary hearing is a matter of range. The heart beats is valid but isn't a winning factor. This isn't a huge point, you're just ignoring the advantages.

      As for prep time. I claimed prep time only when Batman beats people much higher in AP than himself, which was brought up earlier. I have said Bats is capable of beating a handful of people of comparable AP in outright skill. Wolf simply has more. Ergo his feat is quantifiably superior. "Agree to disagree" is a form of admitting this without backing down in the face of all facts.

      And don't dogpile Elizhaa, please. It's true that Bats' best feats are via prep time. That really can't be denied. 

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, but his best feats aren’t what are being presented here.

        Loading editor
    • I didn't say they were. I did say that Wolf's feats are flat out better in terms of skill, which seems to be politely ignored, oddly enough. 

        Loading editor
    • Please stop adding random votes to the OP Bambu. Zara’s vote was throughly debunked, even if yours wasn’t.

        Loading editor
    • Your votes have been debunked and they remain.

      I can get him here again to update his vote, if you like. He just didn't respond after voting, since it really wasn't debunked. You countered the whole easier-to-kill, which doesn't matter since Bats is willing to kill here. Other than that Zarat reiterated a lot of my points. Your other "debunk" claimed that the Wolf defense merely fixated on 127 martial arts- to be clear, I have focused only on the best feat presented. Managing to fight a single other opponent is hardly a skill feat.

        Loading editor
    • Their votes are under contention, not debunked, there is a clear difference

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: Your votes have been debunked and they remain.

      I can get him here again to update his vote, if you like. He just didn't respond after voting, since it really wasn't debunked. You countered the whole easier-to-kill, which doesn't matter since Bats is willing to kill here. Other than that Zarat reiterated a lot of my points. Your other "debunk" claimed that the Wolf defense merely fixated on 127 martial arts- to be clear, I have focused only on the best feat presented. Managing to fight a single other opponent is hardly a skill feat.

      Why would fighting people and easily beating people with hundreds to thousands of years of experience not be a skill feat? That is literally the definition of a skill feat.

        Loading editor
    • And I have just put Zarat's vote under contention. Because, again, it isn't debunked. He just didn't respond. Forgive me but I'll be adding the legitimate vote back now. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: Your votes have been debunked and they remain.

      I can get him here again to update his vote, if you like. He just didn't respond after voting, since it really wasn't debunked. You countered the whole easier-to-kill, which doesn't matter since Bats is willing to kill here. Other than that Zarat reiterated a lot of my points. Your other "debunk" claimed that the Wolf defense merely fixated on 127 martial arts- to be clear, I have focused only on the best feat presented. Managing to fight a single other opponent is hardly a skill feat.

      That is not what I stated at all. And I did in fact elaborate on that, and that is by no means the best skill feat that has been presented.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: And I have just put Zarat's vote under contention. Because, again, it isn't debunked. He just didn't respond. Forgive me but I'll be adding the legitimate vote back now. 

      Omission is considered assent due to burden of proof.

        Loading editor
    • You claim it isn't a skill feat when in fact it is. You just choose to ignore it or disregard it for reasons I cannot fathom.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: You claim it isn't a skill feat when in fact it is. You just choose to ignore it or disregard it for reasons I cannot fathom.

      I legitimately have no clue what you’re even referring to at this point.

        Loading editor
    • Everything I have mentioned so far has been affirming Batman’s superior skill feats, not anything to do with Wolf since I admittedly don’t know the character that well.

        Loading editor
    • The martial arts. It really is a skill feat. It just isn't one so great as Wolf's. 

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      Everything I have mentioned so far has been affirming Batman’s superior skill feats, not anything to do with Wolf since I admittedly don’t know the character that well.

      That doesn't make any sense. You're claiming Batman is better (again, with no qualitative skill feat that actually puts him higher than Wolf) despite not knowing Wolf. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: The martial arts. It really is a skill feat. It just isn't one so great as Wolf's. 

      And it is just one skill feat. You have yet to explain why Wolf beating someone who beat a army with skill is such a insurmountable skill feat when compared to Batman’s rogues gallery.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote:
      Everything I have mentioned so far has been affirming Batman’s superior skill feats, not anything to do with Wolf since I admittedly don’t know the character that well.

      That doesn't make any sense. You're claiming Batman is better (again, with no qualitative skill feat that actually puts him higher than Wolf) despite not knowing Wolf. 

      Because it is up to you to prove Wolf’s superior skill, not for me to debunk them. And I have given values, with various scans and numerical values for experience. This is turning into a Ad Hominem

        Loading editor
    • Your argument so far has amounted to “Wolf beat a person who had a feat of beating a army of people using only his skill advantage”, which is a good skill feat, but is nothing compared to people who have spent 25000 years learning combat, 700 years of honing combat abilities as the leader of the most skilled group of assassins in the world, and centuries fighting against foes that can harm them reasonably, all skill feats Batman scales above. Without prep.

        Loading editor
    • Other members of the Justice League regularly contend with people who have been training their entire (extended lifespan) lives for combat, aliens who have fought in wars for thousands of years, and any number of cosmic warriors that have skill feats that are massive. And Batman is still by far the most skilled individual out of all of them, and each one of them always goes to him for training.

        Loading editor
    • 1. A single skill feat in a single game is sufficient. That said, obviously Wolf has other feats. Gyoubu's is the greatest and the best measuring stick of Wolf's skill. The fact that he defeated Isshin and Genichiro, both of whom are also superior to Gyoubu, are notable. The fact that he beat the Divine Dragon, literally a group of immortal deity-like creatures, all of whom defended the immortal waters, is also a good feat if your type of "skill" is just "long lifespan lol".

      2. I have proven Wolf's superior skill in a quantitative fashion. The fact that you merely ignore it is not actually my problem.

      3. My argument is that Wolf has Immortality Type 4 to just rofl Bats, a means to simply one-shot him, has a superior skill feat, a comparable arsenal, the higher stats out of the two of them, etc etc. Your argument revolves solely around Batman having better skill because time lol, which again, time =/= skill (good meme though). 

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      Other members of the Justice League regularly contend with people who have been training their entire (extended lifespan) lives for combat, aliens who have fought in wars for thousands of years, and any number of cosmic warriors that have skill feats that are massive. And Batman is still by far the most skilled individual out of all of them, and each one of them always goes to him for training.

      Again.

      I don't know when people will understand it.

      But.

      Time =/= Skill.

        Loading editor
    • Perhaps, but time is a major factor in skill, especially when most of that time is spent in combat. We use time in combat as the primary measurement of skill in every single versus match, there is no reason this should be any different.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote:
      Other members of the Justice League regularly contend with people who have been training their entire (extended lifespan) lives for combat, aliens who have fought in wars for thousands of years, and any number of cosmic warriors that have skill feats that are massive. And Batman is still by far the most skilled individual out of all of them, and each one of them always goes to him for training.

      Again.

      I don't know when people will understand it.

      But.

      Time =/= Skill.

      It isn’t.

      Time spent fighting = experience fighting

      Experience = skill

        Loading editor
    • Shown Feats >> Time.

      Time can lead to good feats. Present them if you like. But so far you haven't, really. 

      EDIT: Also no we don't. We use time as the measuring stick for skill in the same way that we used 5x as the old One-Shot thing. That's just a group of people claiming it is so. Not the actually recognized measuring stick. 

        Loading editor
    • The problem is that Batman is still a primarily incapacitation based fighter, even if he is willing to kill be SBA. Wolf’s resurrection won’t help if he is not killed.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: Shown Feats >> Time.

      Time can lead to good feats. Present them if you like. But so far you haven't, really. 

      EDIT: Also no we don't. We use time as the measuring stick for skill in the same way that we used 5x as the old One-Shot thing. That's just a group of people claiming it is so. Not the actually recognized measuring stick. 

      As I’ve said, time is a way to measure experience, which in and of itself is a skill feat.

      Yeah, but if you want to be technical our intelligence measurements aren’t official either. These types of measurements have to be decided in VS Threads, and they work because any number of arguments have been made to explain why it works. Batman is already considered a top fighter in every single form of combat besides guns, and even then he’s a master marksman. And group fights are by no means the only measuring stick for skill either.

        Loading editor
    • Just being “immortal isn’t enough”. As you’ve stated yourself, time isn’t equal to skill, it’s time spent in combat. So not only do we not know how long they’ve been active, but we do not know how much time they actually spent in combat, where most of Batman’s foes and allies that have skill feats have or scale to those who have spent most of these long periods of time in combat or training.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      The problem is that Batman is still a primarily incapacitation based fighter, even if he is willing to kill be SBA. Wolf’s resurrection won’t help if he is not killed.

      And this is true, I absolutely fully believe that Batman would go for incap after he kills Wolf (if he manages that at all). But that assumes Wolf doesn't instantly Deathblow him after he dies since... well he can do that.

      The second post is easily dealt with by saying again, Time =/= Skill. A feat of skill is always superior as it has some actual value aside from "MY undefeatable immortal martial artist master of the universe that I killed lived longer than YOUR etc etc". Intelligence isn't being debated here, doesn't need to be. Batman holds that solidly. If we were to debate it, I'm sure you could get a feat to prove it if I really pestered you for it. But it isn't relevant, is it? What is relevant is that Wolf has a better skill feat than Batman. Time hasn't given him that.

      Time spent in combat also isn't skill. Just as an incredibly causal off-topic example, I can beat down a Generation 100 in Titanfall despite being Generation 5. So that still doesn't surpass an actual skill feat if Batman lacks such a thing. 

        Loading editor
    • I doubt Batman would even go for the kill at all. Batman simply doesn’t do that, and most of his gear is geared towards not doing exactly that. I don’t see why we would assume he should suddenly in a in character fight.

      Except fighting foes with combat experience on that level is a skill feat. Experience by definition is a major defining point in combat skill.

      I don’t know much about Titandall, and your explanation doesn’t really explain much, so it sounds like Game Mechanics if they are explicitly supposed to be much weaker. I’m sure Wolf can get yeeted by Random Fodder in Sekiro too.

        Loading editor
    • Batman keeps character by SBA. Burden of proof is on you to prove that he kills people in character, not on me to disprove it.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:

      The question is taking what I see out of context. I said: " most of Batman's best feats are via Prep time there." 

      Then be more clear next time. We are discussing the skill differences and none of the feats brought up for Batman have to do with prep time so I can only either assume you think they were done with prep or are talking about feats that we have never brought up in the first place, and sounds a little too close to dismissing all the feats brought up "because they aren't the best".

      @Bambu

      I have to wonder if you've done the same claiming we are putting down Wolf's skill feat. I only gave a microcosm of what it feels you've been doing for Batman's feats, because I can't call this anything but downplay or misinterpretation of the feats. I've ignored nothing, merely pointed out how I find myself flabbergasted you compare the enhanced senses of animals to someone that could hear a heartbeat on the opposite side of the world. 

      No, I simply agree to disagree to the fact that battling many is instantly superior in nature as a skill feat. That's downright wrong as far as I care, at least without including context. Wolf, unlike the Lone Swordsman and companions, has a retinue of tools already at his disposals, no less of which being the Shinobi Firecrackers and obviously not forgetting the Grapple Hook which lets him close the distance to Gyoubu in ways none of those swordsman could replicate just jumping around a heavily armored dude with a heavily armored horse and a spear which he liberally uses in wide sweeping arcing movements. I mean jesus, one of his moves is pulling it in circles around himself through the cord at the end of the spear. Gyoubu is incredibly skilled yes, but Wolf doesn't just skill overpowers him, and Gyoubu even has the perfect kind of resources to battle many enemies. 

      So yes, it's more than "entire army of people just as skilled, still wins through skill". 

        Loading editor
    • ...kek.

      Before I go into any actual explanation and debate against a vs debating darling, @Yobo Generation = Prestige. Basically a single Generation in multiplayer is equivalent to 50 levels. 

      Gen 100 = 5000 levels

      Gen 5 = 250 levels

      It's a matter of experience against other players. 

        Loading editor
    • Noted on those. I'd argue both are more than skilled in dodging that actually hitting each other with projectiles is unlikely. 

      Batman also is willing to kill by SBA, which is the only change SBA offers and the only one that removes Batman's unwillingness to kill. So.

      @Lancelot

      No I didn't. I've continously called Batman's stealth superior, I just said it wasn't a deciding factor. Two of the three things you listed for Supes' enhanced senses were just range, just bad examples. I called his senses superior outright.

      Again. Agreeing to disagree means you have no means to actually dismantle my argument but vote against it regardless. 

      It isn't. It is an entire army of skilled people, wins through skill, ergo much, much superior in terms of sheer skill. Painting it otherwise is untruthful. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote: ...kek.

      Before I go into any actual explanation and debate against a vs debating darling, @Yobo Generation = Prestige. Basically a single Generation in multiplayer is equivalent to 50 levels. 

      Gen 100 = 5000 levels

      Gen 5 = 250 levels

      It's a matter of experience against other players. 

      I would say it’s because in many sports and martial arts, an individual has to pass through a curious phase where they have to surrender their natural athleticism in order to learn how to execute the movements of that art or sport. Consequently, a beginner performs better than someone who is just initiated because the beginner doesn't suffer the Centipede's Dilemma. For example, a person who has never lifted an epee will have a certain natural athleticism which will help them make up for having no technique. After a few lessons, performance goes down as the beginner is frozen by thinking about what they are doing. Passing through this step is one of the necessary sacrifices for mastering the art.

      (this is plagiarism btw]

        Loading editor
    • Fighting games are no different.

      When it comes to playing a Fighting Game, such as Street Fighter, the more experienced player will know all the tricks to every move on every character while someone with little to no experience in the fighting game genre may resort to Button Mashing. The newbie player may actually win a few rounds against an experienced player this way just because they managed to mash up enough buttons to pull off a series of moves to stop their opponent while the experienced player is frustrated since they can't find an opening to attack in or block against all the spammed attacks. Not all fighting games fall under this and may have counters against players who randomly mashes buttons.

        Loading editor
    • As we’ve stated, Batman’s unwillingness to kill has disappeared, but his willingness to restrain his foe instead is unchanged. Hence, since most of his arsenal is dedicated to this anyway, he will likely start with that.

        Loading editor
    • So unless Wolf is a beginner, which I doubt, he wouldn’t have that advantage that allows for th occasional defeat of a more experienced foe.

        Loading editor
    • @Yobo That ain't even a beginner though. In terms of just actual gameplay time, it takes me about twelve hours from beginning of Generation to reach the end. This means that, at the high-end of Gen 5, I'm juuuuust about 3 days total time logged. In terms of just constant actual playing that really is far from a beginner. 

      And, to be fair, fighting games are their own breed. I openly admit any time I win is dumb luck and can be consistent dumb luck- I've gotten like seven wins in a row on Killer Instinct against people who owned/played the game just by fucking around. 

      It's possible that Bats will go for both. I don't think he'll kill Wolf regardless due to my reasons above, but you get the gist of it. I'm gonna go to bed now if I can, would like to rest up before work tonight, so uh. Ye. 

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa
      Elizhaa removed this reply because:
      19:44, May 31, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Elizhaa wrote: @LSirLancelotDuLacl, noted, I think you made a Straw Man with I said earlier too and you should make efforts no repeat them.

      I think the examples that you brought for batman looks to be via prep time as you said Martian man hunters could hear a heart mile away yet couldn't hear Batman's, from Occams's Razor.

      Also, the point is still differences via combats. I am not saying the skills gap can't be closed with equipments. I  it is just that it looks large.

      We can’t understand what you mean. It may be prudent to try and clean up some of that grammar.

        Loading editor
    • @LSirLancelotDuLacl, noted, I think you made Straw Mans with what I said earlier too and you should make efforts not repeat them. 

      I think the examples that you brought for Batman looks to be via prep time as you said Martian manhunters could hear a heartbeat mile away yet couldn't hear Batman's, from Occams's Razor.

      Also, the main point is skill differences with combats. I am not saying the skills gaps can't be closed with equipments, it is just that it looks quite large.

      Edit: Noted.

        Loading editor
    • Martian Manhunter can’t hear his heart beat from a mile away, because, among other things, Batman has a gadget that hides his heart beat that is standard equipment, though all their other senses he can hide from easily, even hearing to a lesser degree without it.

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      Martian Manhunter can’t hear his heart beat from a mile away, because, among other things, Batman has a gadget that hides his heart beat that is standard equipment, though all their other senses he can hide from easily, even hearing to a lesser degree without it.

      Nothing about hiding being able his heartbeat is on his profile, though.

      Standard Equipment: Body armor, batarangs, smoke bombs, flashbangs, gas bombs, radio uplink, batmobile (often armed with missiles and such, sometimes lasers), grappling hook gun, radio trackers, utility belt which contains various gadgets, weapons, devices, and materials'

        Loading editor
    • It’s under gadgets and in his Standard Arsenal Tabber

        Loading editor
    • B295FBDE-37DC-44CE-B61E-0A63CCC1FDEE
        Loading editor
    • Noted. I see what would normally be in standard equipment would be in Batman's standard arsenal.

        Loading editor
    • There's no straw man, no. Honestly, the way you said that was just very confusing. If you thought the stealth feats were with prep time, actually say that first. Not to mention that they don't utilize any sort of prep no, we have literally no reason to assume that when Batman has previously disappeared while right besides people. What's straw man about a rather "clear" comment that I cannot interpret any other way since we haven't brought up anything prep related?

      @Bambu

      Suit yourself then if you really think that's what I mean. Painting a spear user that can use widely ranged attacks against groups of enemy while heavily covered in armor in a highly dexterous armored horse as "only superior skill" is untruthful. Gyoubu is supremely skilled, but I feel you aren't recognizing how many advantages he has here. And the skilled enemies in question don't have literally any of the tools Wolf had, the one who defeated Gyoubu, besides comparable skill. 

      And it is, again, still putting a battle against many people with comparable AP above literally any other skill feat, which is a big no. 

        Loading editor
    • Yeah. Technology via prep is in the next key over.

        Loading editor
    • Anyway, the point is, it’s entirely possible for someone with less experience to lose, but it’s a major determining factor for various reasons.

      Two good explanations are here, here and here (No relation to Bruce Wayne kek]

        Loading editor
    • So yes, you can technically overpower someone through sheer skill and experience, and Batman’s skill is enough to do that to people with extreme levels of experience, which is a skill feat.

      So yeah, overpowering individuals who have been training for that long and have been fighting throughout that time is a skill feat no matter how you look at it.

        Loading editor
    • Voting Wolf FRA.

        Loading editor
    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote: Voting Wolf FRA.

      I’d personally wait, since all the Wolf points are under contention and Bambu isn’t here to defend them, but I’ll count it.

        Loading editor
    • @Lancelot

      Are you voting Batman then?

        Loading editor
    • I was leaning to Batman since before, but I wanna see what more Bambu has to say first.

      But I do agree it makes no sense to assume Batman would kill because SBA. It's an option due tot he rules, but the last option he'll try considering his character.

        Loading editor
    • What are your current thoughts here?

        Loading editor
    • Also, while we’re at it, I want to note that Batman can disarm some of Wolf’s inventory with Magnet Batarangs

        Loading editor
    • @Yobo As for my personal thoughts

      Batman should take this, but it'll be hard. I don't think at all he's more skilled than Wolf they should be comparable, but he's more versatile in his fighting and options and is well versed in incapacitation even without his tools. Even if that incapacitation may require broken bones. If things like altering his perception of time are combat applicable, even more so. 

      Then there's resistances, with fire not doing anything. poison not really likely going to matter, invisibility won't matter with extrasensory perception, and body puppeetry won't work either. 

      Meanwhile there's his electrically charged suits and Batarang, flashlights and such which he can even just drop from his feet without issue, freezing ray and tranq darts/tazers if he ever sees the opportunity, his thread weapon that moves around like omega beams, restraint pellets, etc. Plus his fake circulatory system if he wants to deceive Wolf.

      It's a close one but a lot is making me lean to him. 

        Loading editor
    • Should I count that in the OP then?

        Loading editor
    • Eh.... well, my vote can be revoked if it's debunked or I change my mind, so go ahead. 

        Loading editor
    • Damn, the votes might end up a tie.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      @Yobo Daily reminder that thanks to the massive inconsistencies of Batman and if anyone felt so inclined, you could pull up literally dozens upon dozens of scans that show complete opposite situations, in which he gets outplayed by people like Joker and Quinn, outfought by people like Bane or even Killer Croc of all people

      Being outplayed by the Joker is definitely not an anti-feat, seeing as the latter has done everything from regularly staging escapes from Arkham Asylum to kicking Lex Luthor's ass and outwitting him multiple times, beating Ra's Al Ghul in chess, and outsmarting Deathstroke more than once. Among numerous other things.

      Batman has beaten Harley far more times than vice-versa. Same with Croc.

      Batman has defeated Bane more than enough times to nullify this argument, and even if he hadn't, how exactly is losing to Bane of all people an anti-feat?

        Loading editor
    • Isn't Bane really good at fighting?

        Loading editor
    • That's an understatement.

        Loading editor
    • Bane is explicitly stated in verse to be immensely smarter and more agile then his looks imply

      Honestly if you want a good summary, look at Deathbattle

      Yeah, I just said that

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      @Mayo

      Months ago? It came out just over two months ago. Surely the knowledge of the entire game can't have left your mind when Batman's feats seem to stick like glue? I feel compelled to find why you blatantly ignore relevant information about Sekiro in a versus thread when you claim over and over to have played it to the relevant point and beyond. Saying you hadn't actually played it is the kindest assumption I can make- the other is that you are belligerantly ignoring Wolf's abilities in the name of allowing Batman to win. Forgive me for not assuming the latter before the former. 

      Yes. So why bring them up here? It's only game mechanics for a creature that is nowhere even remotely close to you to harm you. This is the assumption for every game. Hell, if we're on the subject, 4-C Hollows from Dark Souls when?

      Because they can break Wolf's posture when he is using an umbrella? Not even most enemies can deal that level of posture damage to it, from what I have seen. So it's clearly intended by the developers for powerful blows to damage its posture severely. How quickly can Wolf even activate it? Could he do it on reaction or instinct? There would have to be a lore reason for why he doesn't steamroll everyone and everything by just spamming it.

      Yes, Deathblows are done by breaking posture. However, the fact that they one-shot isn't related to that posture breaking. And for the record, no. A single deathblow animation killed the Serpent. The first merely blinded it because the eye was brought within close contact of Wolf.

      Go watch the video of the Great Serpent that was posted here. It clearly shows Wolf do two deathblows in a row on an off-guard Serpent.

      Wolf doesn't need to counteract his styles, simply excel to an absurd degree at his own. Which he's done. Bats has no feats comparable. His 100+ martial arts aren't equatable to Wolf's small handful.

      Batman actively fights people akin to him in intelligence who are also masters to an absurd degree of their own fighting style (Such as Deadshot, Deathstroke, etc). Batman actively fights, and defeats, people that are akin to his own skill that also have powers to aid them against him.

      Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, Freeze and Deathstroke, Bane all come to mind as superpowered geniuses that Batman consistently fights and defeats. Some iterations of the Joker even has ridiculous fighting feats and is often touted as having intelligence rivalling Batman.

      Overall, Batman has to constantly contend with people that are skilled, superpowered and ingenious but he always wins via incap rather than killing (whereas Wolf aims for the kill from the get go). Comparing skill based on bodycount is, thus, absurd.

      I could also point to Batman single-handedly fighting and defeating dozens of ninjas in one-sitting solo, pretty sure Post-Crisis has done that numerous times.

      No, you don't have to post anything. Just show some baseline knowledge of the game before looking up a guide to tell you things. You've shown an astounding lack of knowledge on a game you're decently into (Ashina Dojo, you said). 

      No, I haven't. The only point I would concede to is being unaware of the Loaded Umbrella due to myself not purchasing it. You keep missing what I am referring to in-regards to the Grand Serpent and you implied that gossip from mooks equates to Gyobou factually defeating armies on his own.

      And, to add to this point, again, you are wrong, though I cannot fault you with this one because it isn't as blatant as the other dozen things you've ignored. The snake is aware of Wolf in the little hut thing. The lore states that creatures in Sekiro regularly sacrifice themselves to the Serpent in order to "marry" it by letting the serpent devour them. You get into the structure people sacrifice themselves in to hide, thus the Serpent takes it as a change of heart. The lore to this is available on the Shunpou assassin just after the serpent's first area, if you kill him you'll pick up an item with the description to back this up.

      So Wolf stabbed the Serpent when it believed Wolf was relenting? Isn't that essentially the same thing as stabbing the Serpent unaware?

      No, the low-end is based purely on the number of corpses in Ashina Castle. I just happen to also know the army is much larger based on it being set in Japan. Basically, nothing contradicts the latter but even the former displays Wolf casually slaughtering Bruce in terms of raw skill.

      Okay, so do you have any actual figures for these armies to conclusively state that they are in the tens of thousands in terms of units? Do you have anything to indicate how many of these people Gyobou actually killed himself? How recently did he kill them? Just before Wolf arrived? (I'd assume so considering the ruin present at the area). Was Gyobou weakened/exhausted from fighting said army?

      You also stated beforehand that Wolf defeating Gyobou, who can defeat armies of people comparable to Wolf in AP (I'd question how you can claim that even a majority are akin to Wolf in AP when they have no feats. You would just be scaling based off a few of them, from what I can tell, that are still around) as an indication for Wolf's skill being capable of slaughtering armies. Yet, if Wolf was so skillful, to such an absurd degree (as you state this is enough to warrant Wolf defeating Batman in skill) then why can't such a skilled Shinobi simply outdo every other Shinobi by killing the Gyobou that slaughtered the armies of people equivalent to Wolf in AP?

      Basically, what I am stating is that Wolf, based on your arguments, would be far more skilled than any of the soldiers that Gyobou faced. That isn't enough to claim that he can slaughter armies of people with similar AP. That just means Wolf can counter Gyobou (notably due to his prosthetic and superior skill). Not that Wolf can slaughter 'armies' of people similar in AP to himself.

      Batman himself has defeated opponents of such renown, by himself.

      Months ago? It came out just over two months ago. Surely the knowledge of the entire game can't have left your mind when Batman's feats seem to stick like glue? I feel compelled to find why you blatantly ignore relevant information about Sekiro in a versus thread when you claim over and over to have played it to the relevant point and beyond. Saying you hadn't actually played it is the kindest assumption I can make- the other is that you are belligerantly ignoring Wolf's abilities in the name of allowing Batman to win. Forgive me for not assuming the latter before the former. 

      'The entire' game? The only point I legitimately didn't know about, that I could have reasonably encountered, is the Umbrella. Why the hell are you so obsessed with making me out to be some biased idiot?

        Loading editor
    • Bane spent his entire life learning to fight pretty much.

        Loading editor
    • Batman FRA

        Loading editor
    • Yobo Blue wrote:
      Bane spent his entire life learning to fight pretty much.

      So did Owl. Hell, for that matter, so did Wolf.

      Time =/= Skill.

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Yobo Blue wrote:
      Bane spent his entire life learning to fight pretty much.

      So did Owl. Hell, for that matter, so did Wolf.

      Time =/= Skill.

      I’m just summarizing what’s been stated above, please don’t attack me ovo

        Loading editor
    • not really attacking, just woke up and giving another point of how time don't matter in the face of feats

        Loading editor
    • Before Bambu takes my point about Wolf vs Gyobou and completely misses the point, I'll elaborate on what I mean.

      Gyobou, according to Bambu, has slaughtered an army of persons equivalent to Wolf in AP (with no proof provided to support the claim that they compare to Wolf in AP or that the common soldier would be comparable in AP to Wolf). My question is, why is this relevant to a 1v1 fight?

      Look at Gyobou's entire fighting style. He races around the battlefield riding horseback and swings a giant spear around, destroying wooden constructs and, obviously, having the range to slaughter dozens of men with his swings.

      Wolf has no weaponry or range that could achieve that feat. You can argue that maybe he can use his shurikens to take out multiple men in one go but that's all I can see. Claiming Wolf can slaughter 'armies' due to Gyobou's entire fighting style being geared around exactly that is just utterly absurd. And one's ability to handle 1vMany encounters doesn't equate to their ability to handle 1v1 encounters either.

      Wolf defeated Gyobou because he was better than any of the soldiers that Gyobou fought. Not because he somehow scales to Gyobou, someone who has trained for active warfare, slaughtering 'armies' of men.

      Wolf being better than any of the soldiers Gyobou faced is, indeed, an excellent argument for his skill being among the very best in his universe, surpassing thousands of persons. But that doesn't work as an argument for him having skill comparable to, or surpassing, Batman. How skilled are the soldiers that Gyobou faced, actually? What conditions were they coping with? With lack of information I can not seriously take Wolf defeating Gyobou (who defeated 'armies' of men) as indication of him being superior to Batman, featwise with his skills.

        Loading editor
    • Lone Swordsman is canonically a mini-boss fight only available after Gyoubu. To be able to harm Wolf and provide the actual challenge of a mini-boss, they'd have to have comparable AP. The Lone Swordsman is just one of the units that Gyoubu defeated. I've made this point a dozen times.

      It matters because these fighters have the means to close range and dodge. It isn't as if his spear is a homing missile. It is purely a skill feat.

      The fact that Wolf doesn't have ranged weaponry speaks volumes for his skill, then, wouldn't you agree? Since he apparently overcomes Gyoubu with that, who, in your book, slaughtered an army by having just a bit of a wide swing?

      He scales to Gyoubu by being better than him. He outdid Oniwa boi and those above him, attempting to scale him to the run-of-the-mill federal soldiers is immense downplay of the feat. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Lone Swordsman is canonically a mini-boss fight only available after Gyoubu. To be able to harm Wolf and provide the actual challenge of a mini-boss, they'd have to have comparable AP. The Lone Swordsman is just one of the units that Gyoubu defeated. I've made this point a dozen times.

      I already mentioned the soldiers that Wolf can face. I asked if they would actually scale to the average soldier that Gyoubu has fought.

      It matters because these fighters have the means to close range and dodge. It isn't as if his spear is a homing missile. It is purely a skill feat.

      Again, Gyoubou is geared for warfare. His skill at warfare would not translate to his skill at duels, whereas Wolf excels at executions and 1v1 combat. The method Wolf uses to kill Gyoubou is knocking him off his horse and then impaling him, not overpowering him, not matching his spear but by knocking him over and killing him. Which, of course, is him breaking Gyoubou's posture for the finisher deathblow.

      This doesn't mean Wolf scales to being capable of killing 'armies' of people scaling to him in AP. It means he is more skilled than any of the soldiers that Gyoubou faced and even then I can argue that Gyoubou fought Wolf 1v1 whereas the soldiers he slaughtered were, likely, fought in a 1vMany format. Which is a completely different style of combat.

      The fact that Wolf doesn't have ranged weaponry speaks volumes for his skill, then, wouldn't you agree? Since he apparently overcomes Gyoubu with that, who, in your book, slaughtered an army by having just a bit of a wide swing?

      A 'bit' of a wide swing? Sure. I'm not denying Wolf's skill. I'm denying that it means Wolf can slaughter armies because he defeated someone who specialises in warfare. I mean, just looking at the boss fight. Gyoubou is constantly impeded by his horse being startled by firecrackers, slashed at, etc. Wolf's first Deathblow is him climbing up the horse to stab Gyoubou. His second Deathblow is him knocking Gyuobou off the horse.

      Canonically speaking, Wolf defeats Gyoubou by attacking his horse and knocking him off his horse. He's more skilled than any of the soldiers Gyoubou faced on the battlefield (assuming that he wasn't exhausted) but this doesn't scale Wolf to being capable of defeating 'armies' that match his AP.

      He scales to Gyoubu by being better than him. He outdid Oniwa boi and those above him, attempting to scale him to the run-of-the-mill federal soldiers is immense downplay of the feat. 

      He's better than Gyoubu at 1v1 combat. Nothing indicates he compares at 1vMany combat. Again, all that proves is that Wolf is more skilled than the soldiers Gyoubu faced. Not that Wolf can slaughter those soldiers like Gyoubu.

        Loading editor
    • Im voting Wolf Fra.

        Loading editor
    • Wolf dies, comes back to life, and dies again for reasons stated above.

        Loading editor
    • dude Wolf dies then brought Life again.

      it's inconclusive.

        Loading editor
    • Isn't his immortality based on having some blood or something like that, and if he dies again he stays dead? I'm only a few hours into the game.

        Loading editor
    • If he dies multiple times, he steals another nearby person's blood and inflict Dragonrot on them, a lethal disease

        Loading editor
    • Just in a game you can resurrection before wolf died

      but don't mention The Lore.

        Loading editor
    • Batman probably takes this with greater experience and overall better gadgets. Sekiro really doesn't stand much of a chance against someone who trained like he did and then some.

        Loading editor
    • Steven Pogi Paitao wrote:
      If he dies multiple times, he steals another nearby person's blood and inflict Dragonrot on them, a lethal disease

      So then Batman would be having his blood stolen as he's the only one around?

      In which case it would be win via incap.

        Loading editor
    • I mean, that depends on if Batman’s first move is to kill Wolf

        Loading editor
    • Can someone please summarize the arguments for both Wolf and Batman. Its hard to keep up with all this back and forth going on.

        Loading editor
    • Callsign Castle wrote:
      Steven Pogi Paitao wrote:
      If he dies multiple times, he steals another nearby person's blood and inflict Dragonrot on them, a lethal disease
      So then Batman would be having his blood stolen as he's the only one around?

      In which case it would be win via incap.

      SBA says this takes place in New York, Central Park. SBA don't mention population so I'd assume that means it's as populated as IRL New York.

      Again, Batman has Freeze Ray, Tranq darts, Sleep grenades and Teleportation in his Standard Arsenal. He could trap Wolf, preventing him from fighting. Thus winning via incap.

      "Victory Conditions: Killing the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions."

      Batman has absolutely zero reason to kill Wolf. He would only have to do that if it's his last possible option. Batman would never go for the kill in-character. To my understanding, the rules only mean that Batman would kill if he has absolutely no other option (even though IC he still wouldn't kill if he had no other option). As a result, Batman would aim for all of the incap win conditions before considering the kill condition.

      So it's a martial artist that specialises in non-lethal takedowns VS a shinobi that has mastered killing.

        Loading editor
    • I'm assuming by the votes that this is ending in incon, regardless of my points, so I sorta disengaged, but I will punt some of these away.

      Batman has a reason to kill Wolf in that Wolf will waste no time in not killing Batman, likely by stabbing him through the throat or impaling him on a sword. Bats is willing to kill, so really, that still isn't an argument.

      Dragonrot is more likely to affect those you associate with. I don't think Bats will kill Wolf enough times to trigger it, but if he does, Bats will be the first to get it. Don't consider this reasoning to win, at least not in the short term, but that's just how it works.

      The other stuff I've covered, a lot get undone by a single shinobi prosthetic (loaded umbrella). At least a few of those he really wouldn't use either, IIRC, looking at you, freeze ray. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Batman has a reason to kill Wolf in that Wolf will waste no time in not killing Batman, likely by stabbing him through the throat or impaling him on a sword. Bats is willing to kill, so really, that still isn't an argument.

      This is all in-character. Batman has actively been attacked with lethal intent countless times in his career and rarely, if ever, responds with lethal force. Batman's last strategy would involve killing or lethal force. All of his preceding strategies would be non-lethal. In other words, he won't kill Wolf unless he is legitimately forced.

      Even if he kills Wolf, he will react to it via his instinctive reactions, realise Wolf has some form of regeneration and would thus, then, focus on winning via incap.

      There is absolutely zero circumstance where Batman would be compelled to kill Wolf more than twice, at the absolute maximum.

      Dragonrot is more likely to affect those you associate with. I don't think Bats will kill Wolf enough times to trigger it, but if he does, Bats will be the first to get it.

      Yeah, it's doubtful it will effect Batman quickly. I mean, I'm pretty sure it only effects friendly NPCs in the game itself. I'm not sure if the lore establishes that it would also influence enemies that Wolf continuously fights.

      Batman could trigger it if he sets up a trap that puts Wolf in a death loop but, like I've said already, it's extremely doubtful that Batman would ever conceive of that notion when he loathes killing and would quickly realize that Wolf is regenerative or immortal after one or two kills.

      The other stuff I've covered, a lot get undone by a single shinobi prosthetic (loaded umbrella). At least a few of those he really wouldn't use either, IIRC, looking at you, freeze ray. 

      None of Wolf's other prosthetics seem to be as effective as his Loaded Umbrella. Can he attack while using it? How quickly can he deploy it? If it leaves him as a turtle I can see how Batman can bypass it or win against it.

      I'm also sorry to say this but, Freeze Ray is listed under Batman's standard arsenal. So he has complete access to it. He has no reason to not use it. The fact that Batman uses it would already imply it's non-lethal so there is no real justification for him to avoid it in-character.

        Loading editor
    • Nope.

      No more long walls of text.

      It's gonna end up incon either way, methinks. 

        Loading editor
    • I will clear up the Shinobi Prosthetic thing, so the info can be useful later.

      All of them are pretty quick deploys and undeploys- many are reactionary, including the Umbrella. No turtling in Sekiro, I'm afraid get that weak dark souls shit outta here, no turtles in my dojo

      He doesn't use it much in-character, for the freeze ray. Having it isn't actively using it. Would also like to point that out for future reference. 

      Now let's wait for a vote or two to drop in and let this fall to incon. 

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      @Yobo Daily reminder that thanks to the massive inconsistencies of Batman and if anyone felt so inclined, you could pull up literally dozens upon dozens of scans that show complete opposite situations, in which he gets outplayed by people like Joker and Quinn, outfought by people like Bane or even Killer Croc of all people

      Where did the idea of Batman being outfought by Bane come from? Bane literally never managed to beat Batman other than their first encounter against a weakened Batman. Bane released every Arkham cellsmate and cause Batman deprived of sleep and was completely worn out after returning every single villains back to Arkham.

      Unless you’re referring to post-Flashpoint, where their first encounter was when Bane had a version of venom that can hurt even Superman. And Rebirth where Batman first casually beat up Bane at first, which caused Bane to go back to using venom. Bane still managed to lose to a half dead Batman who was only half dead because he intentionally let Bane beat him up to stall time as part of his plan.

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      None of Wolf's other prosthetics seem to be as effective as his Loaded Umbrella. Can he attack while using it? How quickly can he deploy it? If it leaves him as a turtle I can see how Batman can bypass it or win against it.

      Actually there are a lot of prosthetic tools that are effective.

      Especially the Aged Feather Mist Raven tool which allows Sekiro to instantly teleport the moment before getting hit. Sekiro instantly teleport behind, on top, or right under Batman's guard and attack while he's wide open.

      There's also the Phantom Kunai that summons phantom butterflies that pursue targets and ignores the targets guard. The freeze ray wouldn't work on them either as they are just phantoms. The freeze ray would pass right through them.

      Or he could just throw other shurikens at him. Batman freezes them at midair and then what? He gets hit by frozen shurikens that could potentially knock the freeze ray out of his hand or possible jam it.

      There's also firecrackers that would stun Batman and prevent him from doing anything, allowing Sekiro to go for the kill

        Loading editor
    • Isn't that pretty much illusions though, the butterfly kunais I mean. "I produces a special sound, which makes phantom butterflies appear."

      Even the drop from Lady Butterfly to make the upgrade speaks of her training in the arts of illusion on Usui's forest. Why would this affect Batman?

        Loading editor
    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote: Isn't that pretty much illusions though, the butterfly kunais I mean. "I produces a special sound, which makes phantom butterflies appear."

      Even the drop from Lady Butterfly to make the upgrade speaks of her training in the arts of illusion on Usui's forest. Why would this affect Batman?

      They physically deal damage

        Loading editor
    • Illusions that feel so real they deal damage isn't even a rare trope in media.

        Loading editor
    • Aridwolverine wrote:

      Especially the Aged Feather Mist Raven tool which allows Sekiro to instantly teleport the moment before getting hit. Sekiro instantly teleport behind, on top, or right under Batman's guard and attack while he's wide open.

      Precognition and Instinctive Reactions. Batman also has a teleporter that enables him to evade attacks.

      There's also the Phantom Kunai that summons phantom butterflies that pursue targets and ignores the targets guard. The freeze ray wouldn't work on them either as they are just phantoms. The freeze ray would pass right through them.

      Batman can see through illusions, has absurd pain resistance and has consistently fought and defeated Scarecrow, who utilises far more dangerous mental manipulation.

      Or he could just throw other shurikens at him. Batman freezes them at midair and then what? He gets hit by frozen shurikens that could potentially knock the freeze ray out of his hand or possible jam it.

      Why are you assuming Batman would react with Freeze Ray? Batman has his own shurikens, with several variants (Heat, Freeze, Explosive, etc) along with the basic, vanilla, shuriken. He can also dodge bullet fire on instinct so...

      There's also firecrackers that would stun Batman and prevent him from doing anything, allowing Sekiro to go for the kill

      Not exactly an esoteric ability. Batman has his own flashbangs, precognition, instinctive reactions and the firecrackers would require Wolf to be in melee range to use them in the first place, whereas Batman can use his flashbangs from a distance.

      I won't deny a use, but I will absolutely argue that Wolf's prosthetics will struggle to work against Batman. The ones that do work, have effects that Batman has better variants of (Teleportation and Flashbangs).

        Loading editor
    • I vote Wolf very high-dif.

        Loading editor
    • Batman FRA

        Loading editor
    • Jesus, this is close.

        Loading editor
    • I think this is a confirmed inconclusive. Don't know when grace began tho.

        Loading editor
    • Just Do it.

        Loading editor
    • This is incon. I'll close it a day after Exodus' comment to be fair. So... 10 hours. 

        Loading editor
    • Explain for me something.

      Why can't Batman use his stealth (that can evade the senses of Superman) to slink away then use his incap tools (Sleep grenade, Tranq darts, Freeze ray or even a stealth takedown with pressure point) and then win via Wolf being knocked out for an hour?

      What is the fundamental argument that stops Batman from winning via this strategy, which is very in-character for him to do?

        Loading editor
    • still the stealth thing

      Because Wolf has similar win-cons. Fixating purely on Bats' doesn't change this fact. Both have been argued to incon. So I'm leaving it there. 

        Loading editor
    • No, he doesn't.

      Batman evades the senses of Superman. Wolf has no feats to indicate he is as skilled as Batman regarding stealth. Wolf's win conditions revolve around killing Batman. Batman's win cons revolve around Batman knocking Wolf out. Batman has instinctive reactions and precognition to enable him to dodge Wolf and sneak away (which he has done countless times in-front of people) and he has several ranged methods to take out Wolf.

      So, again. Why can't Batman just sneak away and do a stealth takedown?

        Loading editor
    • See literally the entire thread.

      Gonna go to bed here soon. This point has been spammed to death throughout the entire thread- literally just stealth, and like I said, it's questionable as to whether it's superior enough to even glean a reliable win condition. 

      This is an incon. 

        Loading editor
    • Nothing in this thread approaches the argument of Batman's stealth takedowns or his superior stealth. The closest would be you disregarding Batman's stealth entirely in-favor of claiming that it is 'questionable' if Batman is superior, despite Batman having vastly superior feats of stealth.

      So, yeah. I'm questioning the inconclusive status of the match when the votes rely upon your arguments, based upon the argumentation of whether or not Batman can simply sneak away and knock out Wolf.

      Hell, you even completely dismissed Batman's Freeze Ray as, essentially, out of character. Even though he has used it in-universe against grunts and has it in his standard arsenal. There is also no reason why Batman's sleep grenades wouldn't work against Wolf, at all. I can see why the Tranq darts wouldn't work directly (due to Wolf's deflections) but from a position of stealth? Wolf has no way of reacting to a stealth dart.

      To reiterate, the arguments for Batman's takedown methods haven't been approached, even remotely and his stealth has been massively downplayed.

        Loading editor
    • Didn't say it did, boyo. I said we addressed it and I said it wasn't as big of an advantage as presented. Not enough to reliably win, at least. A debate doesn't require perfect countering of the other side. Otherwise 's a stomp, probably. In this case, votes are split because Wolf also has win conditions via scaling chain of skill. Even if you'd rather ignore that, it exists.

      A debate is for convincing folks. Folks are convinced in a 50/50 split. Not much point in me furthering debate. Everything you've said has been talked about at some point in the 200-and-some-change posts. 

        Loading editor
    • But you didn't make any arguments against his stealth. You just claimed it can't be proven to be superior, when Batman blatantly has vastly superior stealth feats.

      None of Batman's incap approaches have been debated and his stealth hasn't been argued to any degree.

      Your arguments are fundamentally flawed and have not proven, even remotely, that Batman can not defeat Wolf with ease. It has, at most, proven that Wolf could defeat Batman with great difficulty, and only if Batman approaches Wolf directly (which is out of character against armed or unknown opponents).

      Considering this thread is open and 9 hours remain, I have every right to make my case for why this result would be incorrect.

        Loading editor
    • I know. I addressed how I didn't above. I was quite clear on why I didn't. The votes occurred anyways. So this point is moot, since it's already in what you might call the court record and considered.

      Yes they have.

      No they aren't.

      Okay. Go ahead. I'm not stopping you, I'm just telling you that it probably won't change anything. 

        Loading editor
    • You can't even properly perform a stealth takedown on Sekiro because he has a tool that teleports him should he get hit in any way. This works even if the opponent is behind you.

        Loading editor
    • Also

      Since we're talking about people stealthing Wolf

      Would the red-sign pop up thing be considered canon? I don't remember any lore acknowleding it but that'd pretty much discredit anything like that

      let's turn this bih into a discussion thread boys

        Loading editor
    • You mean perilous attacks? I don't know.

        Loading editor
    • It definitely shouldn't be unless it's aluded to exist as anything more than a game mechanic in lore.

        Loading editor
    • 's why I'm asking

      I never found anything on it, but a lot of the lore info isn't looked into yet

      we're all waiting on Vaati to do the work for us since he's better kek

        Loading editor
    • I sincerely doubt it. It's almost certainly purely game mechanics. To my memory, only things acknowledged canonically can be considered for abilities.

      If you did consider game mechanics, you would also have to consider Spirit Emblems, which would heavily limit Wolf.

      "You can't even properly perform a stealth takedown on Sekiro because he has a tool that teleports him should he get hit in any way. This works even if the opponent is behind you. "

      Sleep grenades. Continual freeze ray. Unless there are attacks Wolf can dodge that pertain to weapons like these, I wouldn't assume he can teleport against them. Especially when he has to specifically be attacked to teleport.

        Loading editor
    • Fextra being as insufficient as always smh

      then yeah I suppose we'll wait for Vaati to notice a kanji on a wall on the way down to the Abyss saying they're canon and also that the final boss is just mist noble in a mask

      oh well

        Loading editor
    • Mist Noble is just Patches smh.

        Loading editor
    • The final FromSoft jebait is just a small clip, like a second, of Patches' voice dialogue coming at the ending of the game, and like Mist Noble's barely visible head in the last cutscenes where Wolf stabs the fuck out of himself

      just utterly gnome us

        Loading editor
    • Mist noble was the one who stabbed Wolf in Hirata tbf.

        Loading editor
    • Mist Noble is secretly every enemy in the game wearing a mask

        Loading editor
    • I actually believe Batman is smart enough to incapacitate Sekiro if he knows he cannot kill / does not want to kill him for real. Ask the many criminals Bruce incapacitated before.

      And... if McQueen takes this for 5 more hours let it be - I am casting my vote for Bruce for my reasons and FRA.

        Loading editor
    • This was an interesting thread. But I'll have to give it to the Bats FRA.

        Loading editor
    • What's the vote count?

        Loading editor
    • Batman: 8 (CryoTheMayo, Psycho, EmperorDoom, Lancelot, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir Ovens, Jasonsith, Ogbunabali)

      Wolf: 6-7 (Mr. Bambu, Steve Pogi Paitao, Elizhaa, Milly Rocking Bandit, Zarathustra(?), Jimboydejuan12, CCmac)

      Thunder McQueen: 0 (?)

        Loading editor
    • Batman FRA.

        Loading editor
    • That's 9 then. Would Zara's doubtful vote because of his debunked reasoning be counted, or do we assume he would agree with Wolf's new reasoning anyway and leave it at 7-9?

        Loading editor
    • Well now that I've looked over all of the reasons.

      I also agree with Batboi FRA

        Loading editor
    • That's grace in Bat's favor.

        Loading editor
    • Hm.

      Grace finished a day ago, for incon. And then DC supporters appeared.

      Welp. Sekiro is a bit more obscure so I suppose the same support is impossible here.

      Oh well. Wiki darlings and whatnot. Cheers fellas. 

        Loading editor
    • Don't let that salt dehydrate you on the way out

        Loading editor
    • Dirty laughing

      Dirty laughing

        Loading editor
    • Hey King you never voted

        Loading editor
    • I don't see a whole lot of reason to.

      The few things I would have said before if I'd had the time have already been said in some capacity, and honestly, this is a rare chance to see a character I like win a match without me having to vote for once. lol

        Loading editor
    • To be fair some of the opposition's arguments don't make much sense.

      They dismissed Sekiro's Phantom Kunai saying that Batman can "see through illusions" which actually makes no sense at all since these deal physical damage, homing, and are intangible. They was even a character named Inosuke Nogami who faced Lady Butterfly who uses these same projectiles. He ripped out his own eyes believing that would get rid of the illusions but they still were able to damage and nearly kill him.

      They also mention Batman can beat him with stealth by simply being better than him which also makes no sense. Regardless of how stealthy you are, that doesn't automatically allow you to instantly detect someone with less stealth. If Batman went into stealth, then Sekiro would go into stealth as well and neither would be able to find each other.

      And one of their main points is the use of precognition and instinctive reaction which, from looking at Batman's profile, are highly exaggerated in this debate. Whether reactions are automatic or manual, they move at the same speed. And since speed is equalized here, if Batman is physically too slow to dodge an attack from point blank range, then he wouldn't be able to dodge automatically either.

      And his precognition. The opposition implies that Batman can react to all of Sekiro moves by knowing them before they happen. Batman precognition boils down to sensing danger which is incredibly weak seeing how one doesn't need to be a psychic to tell that their opponent is trying to kill them. Not only that, "danger sense" doesn't provide any information of the opponents attack or abilities. So even if Batman knows Sekiro is going to attack him, he won't know how or what he'll attack with.

        Loading editor
    • Probably because he has better senses if Wolf ever tries to go to stealth, but otherwise I agree on the illusion bit since they actually DO kill Wolf.

      also grace has ended so I'll be adding this as incon heh

        Loading editor
    • Batman's stealth feats are obscenely better than Sekiro's considering whose senses it is consistently able to fool, there is no comparison to be made in that aspect, also doesn't batman just have equipment that would allow him to see sekiro plainly if he is not actively hiding behind something? what stops batman from detecting him through something as simple as thermal vision?

        Loading editor
    • I'm pretty sure Bruce also has scanners in his cowl that can detect people through walls and obstructions.

      That may be Post-Flashpoint though.

        Loading editor
    • Sekiro has knows the Suppress Presence technique that removes his presence. People that would normally be able to sense someone's presence would not be able to sense Sekiro as he has no presence in the first place.

      He also has the Suppress Sound technique that eliminates all noise he makes so no one can hear him.

      Also I just noticed that with SBA, the fight takes place in Central Park where there really isn't any place to hide. If Batman for some reason decides to retreat into the city, not only would Sekiro get an opportunity to get a free hit in, Sekiro would go into a different direction and neither would find each other.

        Loading editor
    • Aridwolverine wrote: Sekiro has knows the Suppress Presence technique that removes his presence. People that would normally be able to sense someone's presence would not be able to sense Sekiro as he has no presence in the first place.

      If by "supress presence" you mean he is making himself undetectable by any wavelength in the EM spectrum then it's fair game, if it's just DBZ-esque hiding-your-ki deal it's pretty much useless against any form of radar/thermal technology batman most likely has on him.

        Loading editor
    • I don't think a lack of presence suddenly makes your temperature nonexistent.

      There's no place to hide in central park...? Excuse me, but what?

        Loading editor
    • Schnee One wrote:
      Don't let that salt dehydrate you on the way out

      Not even mad. Just too busy to deal, worked a 16 hour shift. Wolf will/should lose about 50% of his matches if the people making them are to be trusted. Or incon. I disagree with the outcome but to get angry over a loss? Yer looking at the wrong internet filth to spite there, Garg. 

        Loading editor
    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote: There's no place to hide in central park...? Excuse me, but what?

      The fight takes place in the wide open plains of central park. If one wants to make it into the trees, they would not only have to run quite a distance, but also expose their back to the enemy which would spell death. Also the trees are incredibly thin and small. Plus, if you take into consideration the fighters AP and abilities, they easily cut/burn the trees.

        Loading editor
    • At literally no point has that ever been a thing or implied in anyway. The location is simple Central Park.

        Loading editor
    • Have you actually seen Central Park before?

      There are very few "wide open plains" to speak of. A good 80-90% of the place is packed with trees, benches and other obstructions.

        Loading editor
    • Trees that could be easily chopped or burned down.

        Loading editor
    • MrKingOfNegativity wrote: I'm pretty sure Bruce also has scanners in his cowl that can detect people through walls and obstructions.

      That may be Post-Flashpoint though.

      He does, among various other Information Analysis abilities

        Loading editor
    • So, should this be requested, or....

        Loading editor
    • I dunno, I feel like this'll be thunder mcqueen now.

        Loading editor
    • Aridwolverine wrote:
      Trees that could be easily chopped or burned down.

      Your guy Wolf must have some truly legendary stealth feats if you're convinced he can chop and burn down a bunch of trees in Central Park while remaining unnoticed by anyone.

      Unless you're saying he'll find the exact spot Bats is hiding in and destroy it before Bruce can see it coming, which would mean your character has some equally impressive tracking feats that I'd like to see some scans for.

        Loading editor
    • If Sekiro burns down the park then neither side could use stealth. Rendering Batman's stealth and stealth detection useless.

      Because of this, if Batman is really insistent of using stealth, he would have to escape into the city as their is no more park anymore to hide in. However, if he does do this strategy, then Sekiro would escape into the other direction, preventing either party from finding each other

        Loading editor
    • We would disregard any stealth based abilities by your logic Arid, at least between anyone upper tier 9 and above, because they could just destroy any foliage around. Rarely is the fighting area made of a material that couldn't be destroyed, after all.

      Keeping and making distance of any sort apparently also loses it's purpose because "that'd just be showing your opponent your back and asking them for a free shot", which is silly?

        Loading editor
    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Schnee One wrote:
      Don't let that salt dehydrate you on the way out

      Not even mad. Just too busy to deal, worked a 16 hour shift. Wolf will/should lose about 50% of his matches if the people making them are to be trusted. Or incon. I disagree with the outcome but to get angry over a loss? Yer looking at the wrong internet filth to spite there, Garg.

      Take a joke, jeez.

        Loading editor
    • Wolf focusing on burning all of the foliage in Central Park while not even knowing where Batman is while Batman has ranged incap options?

      I mean, if you wanna make things even easier for Batman, sure.

        Loading editor
    • If the battlefield consists of mostly of foliage and one character has fire manipulation that could burn down said foliage then yes, stealth would be countered.

      In a fight between two highly skilled fighters, every action is important. Any attack can be potentially lethal. Fighters use combat stances as it allows one to easily attack and defend with the least amount of risk. Even if you can sense attacks coming from behind you, it requires more time to physically turn your body around to deflect a blow than it is if you were already facing that direction. And since speed is equalized, they would have to focus and fight as perfectly as possible as either one is skilled enough to exploit any momentary opening.

      Running away isn't a free action. Every action they make can be responded with an opposing one. If Batman lets his guard for just one second, then Sekiro finishes him off with a deathblow. And if Sekiro makes a misstep then Batman can potentially freeze him.

        Loading editor
    • Aridwolverine wrote:
      If Sekiro burns down the park then neither side could use stealth. Rendering Batman's stealth and stealth detection useless.
      1. 8-C AP isn't nearly enough to scorch an entire park that's multiple square kilometers in size, and even if it was, your character doesn't have the AoE to do so. So if he does decide to do that, he's going to be burning down trees for a pretty long time, more than enough for Bats to hit him with one of his incapacitating options.

      2. You say he'll just burn down the entire park without showing any in-character instance of him doing anything similar in order to find someone in hiding, which leads me to the conclusion that "burn all the fucking trees down" isn't something he would do in-character.

      So basically, what you've just described is a stupid idea, and probably not even something Wolf would do to begin with.

        Loading editor
    • Sekiro is a shinobi, he doesn't care about honor. He'll rely on any esoteric means of winning. That was how he was raised.

        Loading editor
    • Cool.

      Now how does he use the AoE he doesn't have, the AP he doesn't have etc to burn the forest down?

        Loading editor
    • You are still making no sense Arid. You might as well just destroy every single hiding spot if you have the AP by this logic, but characters don't do this like some sort of rule. And the ones that do tend to be caught off guard by said stealth in the first place by just focusing on uncovering them.

      Not to mention that this is speed equal. Even in series where speed ain't equal, running away or making space is always an option. Wolf doesn't just "nothing personal kid"s Batman because of an opening while there's distance, and Batman isn't just shutting off all of his hyper senses while moving away and with his eyes possibly not on wolf.

        Loading editor
    • "Sekiro is a shinobi, he doesn't care about honor."

      And?

      Still doesn't mean he's going to spend his time burning what amounts to several acres of forest down just to look for one guy, especially if he hasn't done anything similar in canon.

      And even if he does go for that, the entire strategy is suicidal.

        Loading editor
    • He doesn't have to burn down the entire park down instantly in one move. All he has to do is create one flame and that flame would spread to other trees over time, growing and consuming more as it travels.

        Loading editor
    • What about the part where we stared "That actively makes it easier for batman?"....

        Loading editor
    • You never stated "That actively makes it easier for batman?"

        Loading editor
    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      Wolf focusing on burning all of the foliage in Central Park while not even knowing where Batman is while Batman has ranged incap options?

      I mean, if you wanna make things even easier for Batman, sure.

        Loading editor
    • Oh that. Speaking of ranged options, no one ever made a rebut against the Phantom Kunai

        Loading editor
    • Try making one against the dozen or so points that were made against Wolf first. The entire final third of this thread has consisted of everyone debunking your arguments while you've failed to do the same to any of ours.

      In the meantime, I'm heading to work. I'll be back whenever.

        Loading editor
    • @ MrKingOfNegativity

      Have a good day. Its late where I'm from so I'll probably respond tomorrow.

        Loading editor
    • I made a rebuttal to that before already. We know Old Lady Butterfly uses illusions, we are told directly she trained them, we know that's what she uses on Wolf many times. Since "illusions are so real you actually take damage" is not even an uncommon fiction trope and the Phantom Butterfly's explicitly mention them making a special sound that summons the butterflies.

      There's a lot more supporting them being illusions than not, and Batman has resistance to illusions.

        Loading editor