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  • The Knight enters into the underground and now is in a fight with sans cause reasons.

    Speed is equal

    Takes place in Underground

    Full arsenal

    Who wins and why?

    Sans: 3

    The Knight: 8

    Inconclusive:

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    • I made Undyne vs The Knight. I don't see how this is different then that thread, and The Knight is winning that thread so...

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    • That a vote for Bug Boi? (Also didn't know that. I'll check that out)

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    • Stalker Maggot wrote: I don't see how this is different

      Considering Sans and Undyne are completely different characters with completely different fighting styles and completely different power sets it should be completely different. Namely Sans stomps. The Knight really doesn't have anything to counter bone and teleport spam

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    • The bones aren't that much of a issue, considering he really only uses bones to harm souls. And it was talked about how The Knight can ressurcet from getting his soul destoryed

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    • ApiesDeathbyLazors wrote:

      Stalker Maggot wrote: I don't see how this is different

      Considering Sans and Undyne are completely different characters with completely different fighting styles and completely different power sets it should be completely different. Namely Sans stomps. The Knight really doesn't have anything to counter bone and teleport spam


      For one. The Knight doesn't have a soul. This is shown when shades are struck, The Knight can not absorb any soul from them. And that's exactly what he is. A Shade. Meaning he wouldn't have a soul

      Also. Sans Stomps. Do explain in good detail why. Because even if The knight did have a soul Sans could harm. What namely makes it a stomp?

      And teleport spam is Hella out of character for using in combat. Sans utilized it near the end of his fight. He wouldn't at the start

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    • Not voting yet, but Sans can and has damaged people without SOULS

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    • Sans' bones deal physical damage too. As well they are intangeble and will bypass durablilty and shielding. Add to that the Knight's range is garbage and Sans' teleportation means the Knight is never going to even get close to Sans. Also, the Knight does have Soul, it's kinda the main resourse in the game. Sans' constant soul damage means a number of the Knights abilities are useless. The Knight's best advantage is it's crystal flight, but it can't manuver without stoping altogether so Sans can just teleport behind the Knight and kill all of it momentum.

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    • Sans FRA 

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    • 1. No he doesn't; he literally just uses soul as a weapon. But siblings and shades literally can not have their soul drained cause they don't have one. Using soul as a weapon and having a soul are very different. There's even a creature that downright drains soul from bodies yet the Knight can live on even without the soul. Meaning that Most certainty he doesn't have one

      2. The Knight still has a pretty good Power advatage. And durability advatage which Sans can't Bypass. Since no soul.

      3. Sans utilized Teleporstion very little in combat and only did it closer to the end. He isn't gonna expect a bug to hit with enough force to kill him.

      4. Damaging soul doesn't take it away. He would literally be able to still use his abilities

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      1. No one said he had a soul, just he has soul.
      2. As previously mentioned, Sans' attacks are intangeble and damage an opponent physically too. Still gonna bypass durability even without a soul.
      3. He still isn't gonna let himself be hit. If that means he needs to teleport then, yeah.
      4. You just said an enemy can drain soul. Why wouldn't soul damaging attacks depleat it?
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    • 1. Not his soul. So it's not gonna killjim if Sans hits hat soul. The only damage comes if Sans physically hits him. Not the soul

      2. Umm no. It is not. Bypass comes through Damaging the soul. The Knight can't be damaged through his soul cause he has none. So Sans does not bypass durability.

      3. No he isn't. He has never used Teleportstion to dodge an attack. He side slides. Never showed to downright teleport to dodge.

      4. Cause The Knight taking damage doesn't deplete soul. I said there was a Specific person who can do it. But ya a specific power. If anything. His charms actually raise up his soul attack. But he doesn't lose soul when damaged. And Sans doesn't deplete soul. He attacks it.

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      1. Now you're just ignoring what I'm saying.
      2. It was determined the reason Sans can damage the souless is because his attack damae physically as well as spiritually.
      3. Sans is canonically weak and knows it. He will avoid damage at all costs.
      4. Taking physical damage won't deplete his soul, taking soul damage will.
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    • 1. And you aren't listening either. This isn't The Knights soul. It isn't harming him in anyway if he lost this soul. If he took damage from that soul, how is it he can use it as a weapon and shoot out of his body unharmed. Simple. It isn't anything that can harm him. It's his ability to manipulate and shoot soul. But losing that soul hurts him in no way

      2. If he does physical damage sure. But doesn't bypass durability. And the Knight could hit Sans attacks away. The Knight is stronger than Sans.

      3. He ain't gonna be aware that a literal bug is stronger than him. Regardless too it. Nothing stops The Knight from using Sans attacks against him

      4. Nope. Cause Sans doesn't deplete soul. He injures and then eventually destroys it. But there's no reason to say it's depleting in the amount. Soul in Hollow knight and soul in Undertale work differently.

      5. Also. The Knight doesn't even have to kill Sans. He has a charm that literally just drains soul over time. So all bug would have to do is last. Which he could

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      1. NO ONE EVER SAID IT WAS HIS SOUL
      2. The fact that the bones are intangeble means they will bypass defensive abilities.
      3. I think I saw someone say the Knight is ten inches tall? I'd be afraid of a ten inch tall bug, and some monsters in the Underground are weired. Sans won't take chances.
      4. Now you're just making up your own logic. Damaging soul means there is less of it.
      5. You're refering to the Kingsoul, which has an infinate store of soul inside it which the Knight can passively draw from. That won't affect Sans.
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    • 1. You still Aren't listening. I know what you are saying. And I'm saying. JUST BECAUSE HE HAS SOUL WITH HIM, DOESNT MEAN HE TAKES DAMAGE OR LOSE SOUL IF SANS HITS IT. The Soul The Knight has is completely separate from himself. If the soul had any actual effect on The Knight. Then he would take damage from straight up using the stuff which he doesn't. The only way sans does damage is physically attacking him.

      2. Except t doesn't bypass durability. It would only do damage if t hit him. Nothing would bypass durability. Just cause a bone is stabbed through him, doesn't mean it's bypassing his durability. It's just going through him. That just hurts him

      3. And that's based on what logic? Sans may keep his guard up with most people. But this is a literal Bug. A 10 inch creature. Nothing like sans has faced or would understand. The chance of him seeing The Knight as a threat isn't that real.

      4. Nope, you are just wrong. The Knight has only ever shown to lose soul when he has it literally drained from his body, or he uses it. But taking damage only gives him more soul thanks to charms. And he doesn't lose it when he takes hits. Even from people who have the same ability like say. Hornet. So no. He wouldn't lose soul if Sans hit it. Also. Again. You are comparing two different concepts. Hollow knight Soul and Undertale soul work differently. They don't follow the same rules. Nothing suggests Sans is lowering the amount of soul. He is only weakning it. It's very wrong to assume without evidence. Cause let's put it into another standard. If someone beat another person. Does that mean there is less of that person? No. It just means that person is hurt. but the same amount is still there as before. Sans doesn't have any Soul draining. It's just hurting the soul. Not draining it. Very different concepts

      5. No I'm not. Weaversong. Creatures which drain your soul just by being near the enemy.

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    • Alright, I'm going to try to be as clear as possible on every point.

      1. It is well understood that the Knight will NOT take damage from soul based attacks, yet you keep reiterating that fact. And Soul does infact have an effect on the Knight considering it FUELS ALL OF HIS ABILITIES.
      2. Sans' bones are intangeble and will do a set amount of damage to anything they pass through REGURADLESS of durability, therefore BYPASSING durability.
      3. It's based on the logic of a ten inch large bug is GOD DAMN SCARY. And Sans isn't stupid. He will recognize the Knight isn't a monster and will therefore keep his guard up and teleport if the Knight seems capable of hiting him.
      4. If Hollow Knight Soul isn't the same as Undertale SOUL then it isn't soul and the Knight shouldn't have Soul Manipulation. You can't have it both way. Most enemies in Hollow Knight don't have Soul Manip meaning they wouldn't deplete the Knight's soul reserve.
      5. The Weaver's summoned from the charm drain soul from damaging an opponent and would have to actually hit Sans which he avoids via teleporting especially if it looks like dodging isn't feasable. Plus weavers only drain soul if Grubsong is equiped meaning it isn't an innate effect of the charm.
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    • 1. I didn't just say he won't take damage. I said It won't effect his soul at all. His soul will be fine. Attacking it won't work. My example above examples a good reason why.

      2. It doesn't bypass durability cause it passes through him. Doesn't mean it's doing more damage. Shades are just sort of shadow goop. Attacking them from inside wouldn't do much anything different as from outside. So it can Bypass a shield. But it doesn't bypass durability cause it has no effect on the soul and doesn't do any more damage or anything special to kill The Knight

      3. How is this bug scary? It's a Bug. The thing would be more adorable than Scary. It doesn't attempt to scare and it doesn't look scary. It looks like a small bug with a mask one. That wouldn't raise any alarms. You don't have to be stupid to not be alarmed by a bug.

      4. Wrong. He should have soul manipulation cause he can obviously absorb and shoot soul. That's soul manipualtion. Soul can work differently across canon. In Hollow knight. He can drain your soul but you don't die until it's completely gone. Nothing in Undertale shows or suggest soul draining. And yes. But notice the word Most. Unlike say hornet who shares the same ability to drain soul. Thisbproven in some of the footage shown for when you play has hornet in the upcoming Hollow knight DLC or game.

      5. Which for one. He doesn't know they would be any harm. For two, they are so small the odds of him keeping track of them and The Knight are unlikely, for three, he doesn't utilize teleportation in combat a lot. He used it once and it wasn't even to dodge anything in the fight. For four, and he would have that charm to do it other fact it's supposed to be full arsenal.

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      1. Yes it will and I'll get to that in a later point.
      2. I never said it would do more damage, I said it does a set, unchangable amount of damage reguardless of the Knight's durability.
      3. Fine, the Knight isn't exactly scary looking, but it is a ten inch tall creature that isn't a monster from the Underground and is SWINGING A 4 INCH NAIL AT SANS. Sans isn't just going to sit there and get hit. He's going to dodge or teleport to avoid taking any damage. Sans is incredibly frail and he knows it.
      4. Verse Equalization means that the two different types of soul manip will interact and if you disagree then Hollow Knight's Soul is not soul manip.
      5. First: Sans is used to being the weakest monster, knows he can be oneshot normally, and won't take any chances. If someone chucked a baseball at you would you stand there and take it? NO! Second: They're not small enough or fast enough for their size to be a real problem here. Third: Sans also isn't stupid enough to not utilize a weapon at his disposal. Finally: Fine? If he can't hit Sans it's useless.

      ANd actually, let's tear into why giving the Knight all his charms is a bad idea

      • Joni's Blessing makes several charms and abilities completely useless, namely Healing and any charm that works with healing. These charms include: Quick Focus, Deep Focus, Spore Shroom and Shape of Unn. These are dead charms and only hinder the Knight by being equiped.
      • Flukenest changes the Knight's best range option (not saying much) into something much more useless. It has less range and will just waste soul.
      • The Knight is overcharmed, meaning he takes double damage. Sans can ragdoll the Knight for double damage now.

      EDIT: Also, reguardless of any other points made for of against the Knight it's undenyable the Knight's range is garbage and Sans' dozens of meters absolutly stomps the Knight before it can even get to Sans.

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    • 1. No it won't. I've made the basic reason why it wouldn't. Your logic isn't correct here. Just damaging something doesn't make it disappearing or become. Damaging a person doesn't make there be less of a person. Sans is only hurting the soul

      2. Then this point is pointless. It isn't gonna effect the Knight in the end cause it only can caus the same damage it does before hand.

      3. Again. He NEVER teleports to dodge. He has Never ever utilized teleport to dodge. And swinging a nail. That would be absolutely uninitiating. But ok. Sans dodges. The Knight dashes or crystal dashes. Which if Sans got Caught in BTW. One shot him. Cause that dash does damage. Or the several sevral several little ones Thr knight has from his little flying Bugs, to the weavers, to the Grimm child. All would be going to attack Sans. Which he would have to keep track of them all. Which thanks to their size. Is going to be Difficult. And unlikely to even happen he could actually seem them all.

      4. No. You are just downright wrong here. Their souls work differently. Soul manipulation can also work differently across verses. The Knights ability to drain soul is different from sans ability to attack and hurt a soul

      5. Ok first, even Assuming Sans Does see it coming, does see it as a threat, and does chose to dodge it. He for one, will have issues from the several other bugs attacking him and is gonna have extreme hard time hitting the knight due to his small size making him hard to track and could easily get a close shot without Sans being able to tell. It would take literally one hit. Second, The Knights Dash can move faster than explosions, electricity, and even potentially light. So that's plenty fast enough. And size helps their case like I said before. Makes them harder to track and harder to tell who's close. One bug flys into sans and explodes and he is dead. Weavers drain his soul and injure him and he is dead. The Knight strikes him and he is dead. Grim child shots a ball at him and he is dead. The Knight Heals near Sans and he is dead. The Knight is even close to sans and the poison effect from his defenders crest poisons sans and he is dead. Three. And oh boy. Again. Once more. He Never at any point in Undertale showed to ultize his teleportstion to dodge attacks. At no point. Never. He side steps attacks. Not teleports away from them. That isn't a viable argument at all. He would not use teleportion in that manor.

      And. Wrong. Cause The Knights size makes it hard to keep track. Since ya know. He has dashes. Which can also cause sudden bursts moving faster then explosions, Lasers, and electricity. Which also make him invulnerable to attack when doing. And His dash charm let's him do it extremely fast. Meaning he would be able to get upcose or out of site pretty quickly. Plus sans fighting style being very stand still based. And he could literally hit Any And All of Sans attacks back at him. Nothing stops the Knight from doing that. Cause he can hit the untouchable. And he is much stronger. His Small Building feat which is stronger is his weakest. He can also smash gems and throw himself into them hard enough to cause them to shatter into bits and come out unharmed near the start of the game. Creatures who can damage him he can kill back. Meaning his power also scales to that. Which he also destroys them with a literal single slice. He could easily Hit the attacks back using his Much stronger power. So yea. Range ain't gonna help here. The Knight just needs to outlast sans really. Which since he did his entire journey and doesn't need much of any rest. Can fight in a colosseum which even at a pro playing the game still takes much longer than Sans fight. And has a part where he literally needs to consistently be jumping off walls and avoid the spiky floor while killing dozens of enemies. Yea. He has the stamina

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    • Why are we acting like Sans would suddenly know The Knight isn't a monster? Please show any proof in verse where this is the case that Sans can suddenly tell a person isn't a monster, hell, he mistakes Frisk for a monster in genocide run (insulting or not). Anyways Sans has no real way of harming the Knight, sans physical attacks are 0.0150338208413 tons of TNT, Knight's is  0.027 Tons of TNT.  So already Sans attacks won't hurt the Knight and the Knight has ways to easily dodge Sans attacks, mind you lots of Sans hax based abilities are based on affecting ones soul, which Knight doesn't have so he can't even use half of those.  

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    • No he doesn't. He tells if you do the genocide route. Which is a reference to Chara. So no he doesn't mistake Frisk to be a monster. That's just special dialogue when you are going down a bad path of genocide, and kind of a awareness joke. Since sans is supposed to be fairly aware. Any other route he doesn't call you one.

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    • "Insulting or not". Hence I'm saying he has a one-stick idea to what a monster is.

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    • Now the question, can sans use gravity manipulation to smash him into the ground and kill him that way? (Also Sans has reacted to Chara who has Inmeasurable speed.

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    • No No No No. Sans Did NOT react to Chara. He reacted to frisk or the Chara who had possesed frisks And Chara did not have immesruable speed till the end of the game. The very end after killing everyone. Including sans. He does not scale to Chara At all.

      He did fight Frisk (Or Chara having possessed frisk), but not the strongest form of chara. And he does not scale in any way or form to end game Chara

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    • And no. Cause his AP isn't strong enough still.

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    • Sans can't use gravity manip as it's soul magic. 

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    • Sans is limited to just physically attacking due to The Knights lack of a soul

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    • Alright, I'm done here. My points are being ignored and this is just stressing me out more then it really should. You all have fun.

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    • They aren't being ignored. They just aren't valid reason. There are holes in the logic. Like assuming Sans attacks would drain The Knights soul attack which is very wrong.

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    • What're the current votes?

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    • Nobody has really officially voted.

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    • I vote Knight.

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    • One for Knight then.

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      No No No No. Sans Did NOT react to Chara. He reacted to frisk or the Chara who had possesed frisks And Chara did not have immesruable speed till the end of the game. The very end after killing everyone. Including sans. He does not scale to Chara At all.

      He did fight Frisk (Or Chara having possessed frisk), but not the strongest form of chara. And he does not scale in any way or form to end game Chara

      The imesurable reading comes from the fight with omega flowey, who both of them (Sans and Chara) Scale to. This is due to how they fight in a timeless void. Also, the souls in both games are different. A soul in undertale is the total sum of your existance. Everything that you are. (Flowey said this btw)

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    • This is a vote for sans

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    • Dragonboi9191 wrote:

      Buttersamuri wrote:
      No No No No. Sans Did NOT react to Chara. He reacted to frisk or the Chara who had possesed frisks And Chara did not have immesruable speed till the end of the game. The very end after killing everyone. Including sans. He does not scale to Chara At all.

      He did fight Frisk (Or Chara having possessed frisk), but not the strongest form of chara. And he does not scale in any way or form to end game Chara

      The imesurable reading comes from the fight with omega flowey, who both of them (Sans and Chara) Scale to. This is due to how they fight in a timeless void. Also, the souls in both games are different. A soul in undertale is the total sum of your existance. Everything that you are. (Flowey said this btw)


      That never happened On screen or even know if it actually happened. And it's HIGHLY inconsistent with his Actual shown feats. That's not a legit reason for Sans to get that level of speed. So that vote doesn't count. That's not even agreed upon on his page or the wiki.

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    • Ok, for the on screen part, for the begining of the fight, you see him delete the file. Not te mention on his file it says 

      Speed: Unknown attack speed (Able to consistently tag Chara/Frisk), higher reaction speed (Capable of consistently dodging Chara/Frisk to such a degree that they could never land a hit on Sans, even if they reset and knew exactly what he would do and where he would be, even if he was asleep. Only hit after his opponent broke the rules of the game in order to do so. Should be one of, if not the, fastest non-god tier characters in the game)

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    • If thats not enough I have no idea what is to prove it. Now my vote for sans plz.

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    • Unknown Doesn't Mean Immeasurable. It's Unkown because they are scaling his speed right now which it's closer to superhuman to sub sonic at best.

      Your vote is not Valid. It's based off of incorrect reason which isn't agreed upon on the wiki. Your reasons at least have to have some validation behind them. Which it doesnt

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    • Ok first of all, you are asuming Frisk is only human level. And even if he was only human level, hollow knights speed is lower than that, and Sans has reacted to attacks much faster than most things in his that hollow knight can do. And keep in mind, the player had to break reality to hit him, so the knight isn't getting hits at all. And thats not even covering the argument that the souls in hollow knight are different that undertale, and that Hollow knight might have one.

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    • Wha?! Nobody said Frisk was human level. That's just wrong. Nobody here at any point said that and you would be lying if you keep claiming this.

      And You clearly haven't read the thread itself. Cause if you did you would See Speed is Equalized. Read the conditions before you comment.

      And you are completely wrong. They didn't Break reality. They just moved the box to the attack button. That isn't breaking reality.

      And No. the Knight doesn't have a soul. We have been over that discussion already. He Lacks a soul. Literally none. This is proven in more than one way.

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    • “He ain't gonna be aware that a literal bug is stronger than him.”

      Sans’s durability is garbage. Frogs and flowers are stronger than him. He’s going to be on guard for anything trying to kill him.

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    • The Knight is ten inches tall and us swinging a 4 inch nail at Sans. Sans snipes him to death, soul or not

      And Dragonboi, Sans is nowhere close to immeasurable, get outta here with that crap.

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      Wha?! Nobody said Frisk was human level. That's just wrong. Nobody here at any point said that and you would be lying if you keep claiming this.

      And You clearly haven't read the thread itself. Cause if you did you would See Speed is Equalized. Read the conditions before you comment.

      And you are completely wrong. They didn't Break reality. They just moved the box to the attack button. That isn't breaking reality.

      And No. the Knight doesn't have a soul. We have been over that discussion already. He Lacks a soul. Literally none. This is proven in more than one way.

      I'm not talking about his movement speed, I'm talking about his attack speed, which is clasified as Unknown. The reason why I thought you said Frisk was human level is because you stated that he was only superhuman at best, and I was rounding down on purpose. Sorry for any misunderstanding, should have been more clear. As for the reality breaking feat for Frisk, it is stated in his profile that "Only hit after his opponent broke the rules of the game in order to do so. " And for the soul point, you are asuming that the souls of hollow knight and Undertale are exactly the same thing. My point is that they are very different. Heck, a machine has a soul.

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    • No. Superhuman to sub sonic at best. That's so far what's being talked about on speed. That's where their attack and other speed qualify as.

      For one. I already discussed above gown the hollow knight soul and Undertale souls are different in certain ways. I never said they were the exact same or assumed that. I said they do work differently from each other.

      For two, it's irrelevant to the conversation cause The Knight Doesn't have a soul At All. Literally no soul. Just a goop of darkness together with a mask. There isn't a soul sans can injure in him.

      For three. And yes I'm aware even after They broke the rules Sans dodged the first strike. That's Why He is considered as far as Sub Sonic. But again. Speed is equal. So that's irrelevant

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    • When I was talking about speed, I was talking about what their reaction speed is. He may only be superhuman, but his full limit was not shown, making it possible he is higher. Could you show me where his speed is being talked about? It isn't on his profile yet. 

      For my soul point, I should elaborate. The soul in Hollow knight is a completely separerate thing than in Undertale. They both just happen to share the term of "Soul".

      For speed equalized, do we equalize reactions?

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    • vote for the knight

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    • The Wright Way wrote: The Knight is ten inches tall and us swinging a 4 inch nail at Sans. Sans snipes him to death, soul or not

      And Dragonboi, Sans is nowhere close to immeasurable, get outta here with that crap.

      This seems pretty reasonable. Sans probably takes itnfor these reasons.

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    • The Wright Way wrote:
      The Knight is ten inches tall and us swinging a 4 inch nail at Sans. Sans snipes him to death, soul or not

      And Dragonboi, Sans is nowhere close to immeasurable, get outta here with that crap.

      The dash ability exists, you know

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    • Sans walks in the other direction. He's so huge that a short walk for him is miles for The Knight.

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    • The Wright Way wrote:
      Sans walks in the other direction. He's so huge that a short walk for him is miles for The Knight.

      Honestly I feel like that's what would happen

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    • im voting Hollow knight Fra.

      also checked vote count.

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    • Sans FRA

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    • Sans point are still not very strong. And some points are wrong,

      Teleportation is a no. He never utilized that to dodge, nore to get away from an opponent.

      He takes a step away and it’s miles for The Knight. That’s just bull tbh. You treat him like he is ant size. He is a little over 10 inches. A dash or two is all it would take to get close to sans again should sans take a step away

      The Knight has was to phase through his attacks, hit them back, and is stronger and tougher. And literally doesn’t have a soul. So Sans has to result to physically damage:

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    • Knight FRA

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    • Knight FRA

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    • kinght FRA

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    • One vote needed

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    • Knight FRA. Grace begins

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    • Sans FRA

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    • knight FRA

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    • Grace +1

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    • A FANDOM user
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