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  • Mr. Bambu
    Mr. Bambu closed this thread because:
    incon
    01:11, August 16, 2019

    Woooo boy, I need to discuss this one. Its likely going to end horribly wrong but meh.

    Speed is equalised, both are 9-A. SBA otherwise.

    Geralt: 5

    Wolf: 0

    Inconclusive: 6

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Geralt_of_Rivia_(Video_Games)

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wolf_(Sekiro%3A_Shadows_Die_Twice)

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    • How good is Geralt's ice manip, attack reflection and mindhax?

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    • someone get Dargoo

      I'll wait for that

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    • Not sure about ice manip, but I know it's fairly IC for Geralt to use his hax a lot. *Badum tss*

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    • Yeah, it's through his signs. Basically he can write in the air and with magic it'll perform a task. He's no more likely to perform any one more than the other, though, IIRC. Could be fire manip or ice manip or mind manip. 

      I just dunno how IC it'd be for him to kill the mindhax victim (which would reset Wolf) or if ice kills (or if he kills them anyways). 

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    • Geralt's ice manip freezes normal humans solid instantaneously with a solid hit, his attack reflection reflects half of the damage and leaves him unharmed, and his mindhax can incapacitate a target momentarily at weakest and mindtrick them into fighting for him at strongest.

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    • I should note Wolf should have some amount of resistance via not being trance'd by Butterfly. That said, most of the others would eventually kill Wolf (though I imagine he'd eventually work out how they worked). Killing him wouldn't be incap, however.

      Basically, I see it going like this, and I welcome Dargoo to enter in and prove me wrong instantly. 

      Geralt has no reason to amputate Wolf and no prior knowledge to make him more likely to do so. Wolf has no idea what the signs do. Geralt picks one of the signs at random. At best he chooses to freeze him solid and temporarily harm Wolf, at worst he uses his mind manip and Wolf manages to ignore it (as IIRC it doesn't affect too many minds).

      After this, like a sane human being, Geralt says 'doo dee doo, I killed him, neato'. Wolf gets up and garrotes Geralt if the situation favors him, or Geralt is to far so the fight merely resumes. In the former case, Wolf kills him and claims victory. In the latter, both begin to figure out their opponent's abilities- Wolf manages to deduce that the signs are Geralt's power, and Geralt begins looking for a method to actually kill Wolf. 

      Either way, Wolf has the lesser duty to perform here. Figuring out the signs and that they signify significant danger is easier than figuring out that Wolf can only be incapped by cutting off limbs. Geralt may get lucky and manage to deduce it, but I wouldn't bank any money on that.

      Based on this view of events, I believe Wolf would manage to kill Geralt, either by surprise or some other means, before Geralt manages to incapacitate Wolf sufficiently. 

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    • Axii dominates the minds of two targets max going off of the in-game power, although in the story Geralt has mindhaxed groups of 3-4 people if the skill is high enough. IDK how good Wolf's resistances are but Aard's upgrade trees are pretty extensive in the games.

      Geralt has experience with monsters that ressurect from the dead; see: any vampire and that one guy from Hearts of Stone. Suffice to say he isn't stupid enough to turn his back on a felled enemy, especially if he has no initial knowledge on them, and they're strong enough to go toe-to-toe with a Witcher. Regneration is also common among numerous monsters. Considering this, Geralt would deduce Wolf is some kind of undead or vampire, and resort to trying to bypass regeneration/ressurection through burning or shattering w/Piercing Cold.

      Wolf getting the jump on Geralt is even less likely considering Geralt's senses can straight-up detect when his heartbeat begins again, or when he moves an inch.

      Also, Quen nopes surprise attacks hard, assuming the initial fight doesn't just end with Geralt skewering Wolf after mindhaxing or drastically outskilling him.

      All in all I don't think Wolf poses a particular challenge to Geralt outside of the initial fight, which Geralt has more than enough ammunition to win more oft than not.

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    • Question, Axii sign spawns a projectile that hits the targets for mind control (unless it has other perks that exist outside that).

      Is it possible for him to teleport away from it (Mist Raven allows him to teleport a few meters while leaving trails of fire) or use the Loaded Umbrella to defend against it? (It's able to defend against both fire and fearhax so there's that).

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    • Steven Pogi Paitao wrote:
      Question, Axii sign spawns a projectile that hits the targets for mind control (unless it has other perks that exist outside that)

      I'm not sure what you're referring to. Axii need only be observed for it to take effect; as seen in story cut-scenes.

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    • Oh, I see it in a few gameplay vids which looked like a projectile. My mistake if it isn't.

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    • Bump, so I guess it's a vote for both then atm?

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    • Geralt fra

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    • Geralt raises his hand and tells him to shove his sword up his ass, the end

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    • I'm voting incon.

      Geralt's mind manip is questionable in terms of working, and he could reasonably overcome Wolf's immortality (though Sekiro verse needs to discuss Type 4 immortality at some point). 

      But that Type 4 isn't totally negated and his feats of skill speak for themselves. I'd lean more towards Wolf, but we can't guarantee mind manip won't work so eh. 

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    • How good is his Type 4?

      Can it bring him back from being gibbed? 

      And to be entirely fair Geralt's skill feats are fairly high up there as well.

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    • He still permanently lost his arm after his first fight with Genichiro, even though he already had ressurective ability, so he probably wouldn't come back from being blasted into pieces

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    • He wouldn't.

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    • @Dargoo

      1. Unclear. Sheev and Sigurd are currently referencing how we held his Type 4 to be before. His arm got chopped off, and it wasn't back. Ergo, he can't regen limbs. That said, Wolf got his Type 4 after, but also before, because of timehax lol. His arm was chopped off and he couldn't, in lore, resurrect instantly- whereas he can later. So it isn't really clear his Type 4 was even active then. 

      Basically we ain't know shit.

      2. I don't doubt it, but Gyoubu's feat is just plain absurd and, as several lore people have said, Wolf is basically responsible for dooming the entirety of Ashina Castle by killing every single one of its main defenders. 

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    • 3 defenders kept it from getting yeeted by the government to be exact. Incon FRA.

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    • And Sekiro wiped Gyoubu, forced Genichiro into his Way of Tomoe form and then later fights again, and Isshin... well. Bugger Isshin. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      2. I don't doubt it, but Gyoubu's feat is just plain absurd and, as several lore people have said, Wolf is basically responsible for dooming the entirety of Ashina Castle by killing every single one of its main defenders. 

      Geralt has taken on entire armed guards (hence the title "Butcher of Blaviken"), and goes toe-to-toe with monsters and swordsmen every other day of the week. That doesn't sound particularly impressive in comparison.

      Geralt soloed a group of six people who could kill an entire armed guard of a castle without taking a single hit.

      Cosnidered to be the greatest swordsman of an area spanning multiple countries.

      Kills the armed guard of a prison which is more well-guarded then a keep that houses royalty.

      Shits on armed guards with a cane.

      20 soldiers at once.

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    • If Geralt dismembers him, Wolf will be out of commission.

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    • Are the Witcher books canon to the games? Because the games aren't canon to the books.

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    • SheevShezarrine wrote:
      Are the Witcher books canon to the games? Because the games aren't canon to the books.

      The books are (mostly) canon to the games, but not the other way around.

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    • @Bambuu while the whole Hirata Estate thing does involve its fair share of timehax, I don't think it impacts the how and when of his acquisition of his ressurective ability. His first go at it was essentially a retrieval/recreation of his lost memories.

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    • @Sheev But it really does though. Wolf explicitly said he hadn't been there before. He says so himself. Which makes it sorta questionable as to when he effectively had Type 4.

      @Dargoo Slaying armies of fodder is different than slaying armies of enemies equal to yourself. Each of those imperial soldiers is roughly equivalent to the Lone Swordsman who is literally a mini boss later in the game. Literally an army of equivalently strong enemies. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote: @Sheev But it really does though. Wolf explicitly said he hadn't been there before. He says so himself. Which makes it sorta questionable as to when he effectively had Type 4.

      @Dargoo Slaying armies of fodder is different than slaying armies of enemies equal to yourself. Each of those imperial soldiers is roughly equivalent to the Lone Swordsman who is literally a mini boss later in the game. Literally an army of equivalently strong enemies. 

      His memory was screwy, so of course he didn't remember it. Kuro alludes to the Hirata Estate incidient when you meet him in the tutorial, and Wolf doesn't recall it. Wolf is not a reliable narrator as far as his jumbled memories are concerned.

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    • Wolf doesn't recall it because he hadn't been there yet. He went there later via time travel. Hence not remembering it before he ever went there.

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    • ._.

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    • I'm tempted to say it's memory like the one in DS2 due to the existence of the Father's Charm Bell, but hey it's FromSoft with their lore mumbo jumbo. They're always sneaky with that.

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    • Voting Geralt via telling Wolf to go away, which is extremely in-character.

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    • @Steve It could be that way. It could be. But we have no definitive proof. Basically the only evidence of Wolf being an unreliable narrator is that he didn't remember going somewhere where he theoretically hadn't actually gone yet. 

      I still vote incon as not being affected by Butterfly's trances should be enough to negate basic mindhax on this level, just saying I'm iffy on how to consider Wolf's Type 4. 

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    • Bump

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    • bump

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    • only if i knew something about sekiro...

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    • super cool ninjas and the game will break your balls

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    • I'd say Lady Butterfly's trances are easier to break due to only requiring loud, abrupt sound to be broken, whereas Axii is broken by Geralt having to attack the recipient.

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    • The logic of Sekiro is that loud sounds break the grip on the mind. By verse equalization this logic would carry over to some extent to Witcher. 

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    • Axii only causing stun is purely a gameplay mechanic. When Axii is used in cutsenes, its typical mindhax. So there is no reason it will break if attacked. And if Geralt mindhaxes to go away, he likely won't attack.

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    • I... wasn't referring to Axii. I was responding to Sheev. 

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    • Geralt FRA

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      The logic of Sekiro is that loud sounds break the grip on the mind. By verse equalization this logic would carry over to some extent to Witcher. 

      Why do we assume that it's a universal rule of Sekiro that mindhax can be broken with loud sounds as opposed to that specfic mindhax having that weakness?

      Unless there's something more substantial, you're making a pretty large generalization for the verse.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:

      @Dargoo Slaying armies of fodder is different than slaying armies of enemies equal to yourself. Each of those imperial soldiers is roughly equivalent to the Lone Swordsman who is literally a mini boss later in the game. Literally an army of equivalently strong enemies. 

      It's made clear Geralt isn't just bodying them physically; he outskills them significantly as well. See the quotes I linked on his skill.

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    • Except Witcher humans are blatantly 9-A and comparable to Geralt in AP but not skill. For example, many of the legendary heroes are humans who have slayed some big monster.

      To give a proper example, a vampire horde led by Regis and his girlfriend attacked the tiny village of Fox Hollow in Toussaint. Not only the hastily assembled peasants fight back the horde, they actually took the fight to the vampires' castle of Tesham Mutna and slaughtered every single one of the hundreds of vampires in the castle. The only one who escaped alive was Regis due to higher vampiric regen, but he still got cut into thousands of small pieces and each piece was buried deep underground randomly all over Toussaint. He eventually regenerated after a hundred years or so, but the entire ordeal was so horrible and utterly humiliating that he swore never to drink blood ever again and become a good person. Also to note is that the peasants were extremely drunk and armed only with peasant tools like scythes, sickles, pitchforks etc.

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    • This feat is extremely impressive because even Witchers try and avoid fighting higher vampires whenever possible. Actual soldiers would obviously be more skilled than random drunk peasants and Geralt horriby outskills the soldiers.

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    • I vote for Geralt via his hax.

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    • TacticalNuke002 wrote:
      Except Witcher humans are blatantly 9-A and comparable to Geralt in AP but not skill. For example, many of the legendary heroes are humans who have slayed some big monster.

      To give a proper example, a vampire horde led by Regis and his girlfriend attacked the tiny village of Fox Hollow in Toussaint. Not only the hastily assembled peasants fight back the horde, they actually took the fight to the vampires' castle of Tesham Mutna and slaughtered every single one of the hundreds of vampires in the castle. The only one who escaped alive was Regis due to higher vampiric regen, but he still got cut into thousands of small pieces and each piece was buried deep underground randomly all over Toussaint. He eventually regenerated after a hundred years or so, but the entire ordeal was so horrible and utterly humiliating that he swore never to drink blood ever again and become a good person. Also to note is that the peasants were extremely drunk and armed only with peasant tools like scythes, sickles, pitchforks etc.

      I'm still questioning how did some villagers took down an entire vampire community while a single low vampire was able to gore an entire group of soldiers

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    • They were using peasant hax. And young Vessemir was initially helping them out. When they broke down the gates of Tesham Mutna, some rubble fell on Vessemir's head and knocked him out for the remainder of the battle, meaning that the peasants still cleared out the castle by themselves and with lower numbers.

      The drunkenness was actually a stroke of genius from Germain (leader of the peasants). Not only would being drunk give the villagers courage, it also had a secondary purpose. The high amounts of alcohol in the villagers' blood meant that if they took losses and the vampires drank their blood, they would get drunk as well. Humans are apparently better at fighting while drunk than vampires due to having experience fighting like that.

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    • Im voted Geralt Fra.

      need 2 more vote bro.

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    • well i saw a respect thread for sekiro and i might say the arsenal for sekiro is mostly useless against geralt 



      well to simply put 

      geralt has more ways to kill sekrio than sekiro has to geralt 

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    • @Gribble take that as a vote for Geralt then?

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    • Geralt FRA

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    • Geralt literally can't kill Sekiro

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    • Geralt just needs to turn Sekiro into The Black Knight

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    • but literally nothing Geralt has kills Sekiro

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      but literally nothing Geralt has kills Sekiro

      You can still win without killing tho

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    • Stillwinston wrote:
      @Gribble take that as a vote for Geralt then?

      i mean it should be obvious 

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    • There are 8 votes for Geralt and one for incon if I counted properly. Which means that we are 7hrs into grace at the time of this comment.

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    • but at least one vote for Geralt is based on killing something he literally can't kill

      like I really don't have time to be typing this but

      what

      the votes for Geralt are based on mindhax (which, fair, has a few minds over what Wolf would resist, if you don't believe in reasonable gaps then whatever). But that's pretty much his win-condition. That single skill he won't assuredly open with. If he kills Wolf he gets Deathblowed (doubly so since we've established bodily damage doesn't last after death for Wolf). If he doesn't kill Wolf he gets Deathblowed.

      Wolf's skill feat is qualitatively superior to Geralt's. Geralt having former experience with resurrection users is good but not great.

      90% of what Geralt does leads to him losing, so people have fixated on one thing and generally ignored the fact that Wolf can't die.

      Not super happy with that, really. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      but at least one vote for Geralt is based on killing something he literally can't kill

      like I really don't have time to be typing this but

      what

      the votes for Geralt are based on mindhax (which, fair, has a few minds over what Wolf would resist, if you don't believe in reasonable gaps then whatever). But that's pretty much his win-condition. That single skill he won't assuredly open with. If he kills Wolf he gets Deathblowed (doubly so since we've established bodily damage doesn't last after death for Wolf). If he doesn't kill Wolf he gets Deathblowed.

      Wolf's skill feat is qualitatively superior to Geralt's. Geralt having former experience with resurrection users is good but not great.

      90% of what Geralt does leads to him losing, so people have fixated on one thing and generally ignored the fact that Wolf can't die.

      Not super happy with that, really. 

      >Saying that wolf will get a certain deathblow

      >Ignores geralt can use Quen

      >Ignores that Geralt never lets his guard down 

      >Geralt is proclaimed to be the best swordsman of the witcher verse 

      >Ignoring that geralt can manage to pull off trick moves such as cutting the arm off, Decapitate, Again decapitate but more brutally, Or even cutting the entire damn body...

      >Ignores that geralt as fought characters that were unable to die 



      Basically even if he can't kill wolf at least he can K.O him by literally making him into little pieces of flesh 

      this thread doesn't have the rule to fight to the death so... 

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    • I mean

      A deathblow happens fast, is the point. Forming a protective barrier around yourself is great and all but it isn't like a passive thing, and hard to do with a sword ripping through you.

      And I didn't ignore anything. I'm just aware that Wolf's feat via being > Gyoubu is better than Geralt's given feats. I like 'em both, to be clear. Wolf's just getting a bit of a raw deal here when people are using Geralt killing someone who can't be killed as their reasoning. 

      Those... don't matter. Wolf resurrects. Moving on.

      I literally didn't ignore any of this, if you read my responses you'd have seen me acknowledge this. You haven't countered any of my points, you've just been a bit rude without proving anything.

      Yes, he can KO wolf, I agree, but it would be more in-character to attempt to perma-incap. And Wolf, in that scenario, has the upper hand. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      \ A deathblow happens fast, is the point. Forming a protective barrier around yourself is great and all but it isn't like a passive thing, and hard to do with a sword ripping through you.

      The forcefeild around Geralt is not his most common application of quen. It is typically a passive barrier he activates around himself that takes a fatal blow in his place. So yes, it would negate whatever attack Sekiro tries while Geralt proceeds to counter.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       And I didn't ignore anything. I'm just aware that Wolf's feat via being > Gyoubu is better than Geralt's given feats. I like 'em both, to be clear. Wolf's just getting a bit of a raw deal here when people are using Geralt killing someone who can't be killed as their reasoning.

      As I've said, Geralt is the most skilled person in an area that is essentially an entire country/group of countries which have thousands of trained swordsmen. As others have said, Geralt doesn't just rofl on fodder, he can outskill plenty of people at his level.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Those... don't matter. Wolf resurrects. Moving on.

      Geralt has fought lord knows how many people with that power. Nor would ressurecting surprise Geralt in the slightest; he would hear his heartbeat or slight movements and activate a sign before killing him again with something that would split his body into pieces.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       

      Yes, he can KO wolf, I agree, but it would be more in-character to attempt to perma-incap. And Wolf, in that scenario, has the upper hand. 

      I thought we established Geralt bypasses his ressurection with Igni (which disintegrates/burns him alive), Aard (Freezes/Gibs him), or just through lobbing off limbs.

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    • Assuming Geralt uses it in time. As I said. A Deathblow is often performed from Stealth and done quick. Performing even a hand signal may be a bit much to expect.

      And Wolf is > Gyoubu. Who defeated an army of equal AP skilled swordsmen (see: Lone Swordsman) in a 1vhundreds fight. Wolf outdid him and others.

      Fair, but the fact that it doesn't surprise him doesn't matter nor does it mitigate the fact that Geralt has no method of killing him.

      Wolf's resurrection has since been changed since it was decided the arm-cutting-off was technically before he got his Type 4. That would no longer be an efficient method of bypassing. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Assuming Geralt uses it in time. As I said. A Deathblow is often performed from Stealth and done quick. Performing even a hand signal may be a bit much to expect.

      The battle doesn't start in stealth. Geralt can put up Quen before Sekiro jumps into the bushes or something. In fact, he tends do this prior to battles anyways.

      Stealth working on someone with Geralt's senses and his Witcher charm? Highly unlikely.

      And Wolf is > Gyoubu. Who defeated an army of equal AP skilled swordsmen (see: Lone Swordsman) in a 1vhundreds fight. Wolf outdid him and others.

      I'm not sure how that translates to 1v1 skills. How skilled are the swordsmen that Gyoubu defeated? Because outskilling an average army with high AP is not > outskilling an entire geographical region.

      Wolf's resurrection has since been changed since it was decided the arm-cutting-off was technically before he got his Type 4. That would no longer be an efficient method of bypassing. 

      I don't follow. What's the best he came back from with his Type 4? We don't quantify things by anti-feats, we quantify them by feats.

      So you'd have to show me Sekiro coming back from being chopped to pieces, or just coming back with a new body entirely.

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    • Fair, but you do get my point. It's generally a quick attack, and, to be fair, Wolf has good stealth feats of bypassing enhanced senses of wolves and the like, and has means to enhance his stealth capabilities.

      The soldiers in question are the same units as the Lone Swordsman. Who is a mini boss later in the game. Meaning the game knows they can damage you, not as fodder. So AP isn't the reason. The soldiers are skilled in that they are members of the Federal Army, which basically just rofls every other army in Japan. Gyoubu did this victory via skill, not AP. 

      I mean. It's type 4. He dies and basically just respawns back at the altar. What happens to his body is secondary, same as other Soulsborne protags. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Fair, but you do get my point. It's generally a quick attack, and, to be fair, Wolf has good stealth feats of bypassing enhanced senses of wolves and the like, and has means to enhance his stealth capabilities.

      Geralt outpaces animals in senses. It's why he can hunt and kill monsters so well. He has a charm that alerts him of danger, heck.

      "Generally a quick attack" means nothing in a speed equal battle.

      The soldiers are skilled in that they are members of the Federal Army, which basically just rofls every other army in Japan. Gyoubu did this victory via skill, not AP. 

      I didn't say he won through AP.

      Yeah no. You don't have to rofl 'every other army in Japan' through sword skill. Largescale armies winning is attributed to tactics and leadership. All that means is that on average, they are skilled enough to generally defeat other armies.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      I mean. It's type 4. He dies and basically just respawns back at the altar. What happens to his body is secondary, same as other Soulsborne protags. 

      Is his respawns grounded in the lore like in the other Soulesborn games? I thought it was just his immediate ressurections that are mentioned.

      Where's the nearest altar, in this case?

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    • White Wolf for Dargoo's reasons

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    • I realize he does. But with Wolf being capable of enhancing his stealth past that, it becomes a grey area. And yes, yes it does. Attacks that require a lot of movement or what have you mean something. An attack that would need to be done slowly and carefully is different than a quick jab.

      I misinterpretted the "with High AP part", since it sounded as if you were implying Gyoubu won via AP. And... not quite, but to be fair, Geralt doesn't have to be the best fighter via pure skill either. He's got Witcher abilities which already neg pretty much all enemies (not all, but a lot). So the feats are about as equally viable. The soldiers are better trained than the other armies of Japan. I can send you a link to the fight with Lone Swordsman if you want, so you can see how he fights. He's no slouch. 

      It's largely just "he respawns lol". He can respawn on the spot or go to an altar. The nearest altar... I dunno. It's just a forest. We don't know what forest in what world. Buddhism being a pretty notable religion, it could be close. Suppose we'd have to ask Winston how this one works out since the location is changed and vague. 

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    • *Gets BFR'd by his own respawn*

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    • ^ Basically a possibility. Hence why we need Winston. 

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    • I don't think any of Sekiro's enhancements would make the question of him steathing someone who regularly outstealths animals and has a magic gatchet that would just tell him when Sekiro's going to attack "a gray area". If it's 'a quick jab' it would require Sekiro getting closer to Geralt than Geralt or his weapons/signs would allow.

      It's not "he's the best fighter" it's "he's the best swordsman". I can send Witcher combat videos as well, Geralt isn't a slouth either.

      I get soulsborne typically makes the respawn a part of their lore (The Darksign in DS, the Hunter's Dream in Bloodborne); however I'd first like to see where in the lore Sekiro's respawn is accounted for. I only remember his immediate ressurections being mentioned. 

      The OP specifying an exact location seems necessary, yes.


      On another note, Geralt can also amp his reactions with various potions and enhance his speed to slow-mo levels with Helitrope.

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    • If Geralt couldn't stop him? Again, really only one thing Geralt has incaps, even then there's an argument against it to some extent. 

      And that's fair. I'm just saying Wolf's feat is higher-end.

      You're probably looking at waiting for a Vaati video for that one. Also, side note, the Darksign isn't exactly the whole thing, since it's more like that kills you/sacrifices your soul, but you're an Ashen One who will live foreva etc etc etc. 

      Yes.

      That helps. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote: Assuming Geralt uses it in time. As I said. A Deathblow is often performed from Stealth and done quick. Performing even a hand signal may be a bit much to expect.

      And Wolf is > Gyoubu. Who defeated an army of equal AP skilled swordsmen (see: Lone Swordsman) in a 1vhundreds fight. Wolf outdid him and others.

      Fair, but the fact that it doesn't surprise him doesn't matter nor does it mitigate the fact that Geralt has no method of killing him.

      Wolf's resurrection has since been changed since it was decided the arm-cutting-off was technically before he got his Type 4. That would no longer be an efficient method of bypassing. 

      I'm still pretty sure Wolf got his Type 4 prior to his dismemberment, since Anayama states outright that Wolf was at the Hirata Estate sacking

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    • Yes, because he was time-warped there by the statue. Later in the game. When even he said he hadn't been there yet until that very moment. 

      I feel like we've been down this exact line of reasoning, you and I. So here comes the time is convuluted in Lordran meme. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
       

      Why should I have to wait for a Vaati video on Sekiro lore if we currently treat his Type 4 like that? Are you saying we're assuming it works like that due to prior soulesbornes games, not because we're aware of how it works in the lore?

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    • We're saying it works like how it seems to work (which is what is above) until some lore appears to contradict this. We'd refer to it simply as game mechanics if, say, it were just "checkpoint lol". But the buddha statues go a bit beyond that. 

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    • Considering once you beat genichiro the first time kuro asks

      "How many times have you died to protect me? Two? Three? Perhaps a number so large you’ve lost count."

      I think it's safe to say there is no 3 revive limit in lore

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    • That's not the question at hand. 

      Also I gotta go to work so uh.

      Good luck I guess. Night fellas. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote: Yes, because he was time-warped there by the statue. Later in the game. When even he said he hadn't been there yet until that very moment. 

      I feel like we've been down this exact line of reasoning, you and I. So here comes the time is convuluted in Lordran meme. 

      Maybe he did say he wasn't there, but I don't recall you ever addressing the fact that his memory was fucked (with Kuro referencing the event at the start of the game and Wolf not), and that Wolf shouldn't be considered a reliable narrator in regards to it. Most I recall is you essentially reiterating your point, me getting fed up, responding with a blank face emoticon, and dropping the topic.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      We're saying it works like how it seems to work (which is what is above) until some lore appears to contradict this. We'd refer to it simply as game mechanics if, say, it were just "checkpoint lol". But the buddha statues go a bit beyond that. 

      That's... not how we should operate. We should prove an ability that is commonly game mechanics (yes, I'm very much aware that in Soulesborne games the trend is that they're not, but I don't think that's grounds to assume anything) works under the lore, we don't wait for the lore to contradict an assumption we make.

      I'm not sure how the Buddha statues signify anything more significant than other video game checkpoints.

      Paul Frank wrote: Considering once you beat genichiro the first time kuro asks

      "How many times have you died to protect me? Two? Three? Perhaps a number so large you’ve lost count."

      I think it's safe to say there is no 3 revive limit in lore

      That is in essence what I was looking for. But this is likely referring to his instant revives and not the checkpoints.

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    • Based on what Kuro said I'd lean more to the fact that buddah statues don't work like bonfires in the lore and Wolf has infinite revives but I'm not sure considering there are several references to the statues from the sculptor and co.

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    • Should I make a thread on this?

      Related to Wolf's Res I mean

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    • Okay I'm just gonna say mde the battle location just completely SBA, so if Wolf needs a rez spot he has one. I've not actually played Sekiro so I know little bout it, except its pretty popular lately lol.

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      Should I make a thread on this?

      Related to Wolf's Res I mean

      Up to you. Frankly, games from FromSoft aren't going to have their lore translated by us. Literally the best option is waiting for Vaati who is (hate to use this word twice) literally a professional at finding/discussing/interpretting the lore. Including translations from half-kanjis and the like. If we get an update from him, then that will pretty much decide the matter. 

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    • @Dargoo (Forgive me for not outright replying, Garg's was shorter)

      I mean. That doesn't make much sense. Even a lore-heavy game like Dark Souls (albeit vague lore) doesn't go into deeper depth on everything. Some things just do more damage without the lore saying anything. Some weapons are proven to function better with different ranges from the target. Wolf is acknowledged to resurrect as an immortal. How he is shown to do this on-screen should be enough without further information.

      Kuro is referring to the revives in general. How many times have you died by then (if it's me, the answer is a lot). 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Wolf is acknowledged to resurrect as an immortal. How he is shown to do this on-screen should be enough without further information.. 

      There are several ways he is shown to do it. Saying he can respawn entirely is a different beast than saying he ressurects on the spot.

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    • Wolf vs Olgierd would be extremely thematic, and likely inconclusive.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      I'm saying that they acknowledge his resurrection and that's how he's shown to do it. With no further lore on the subject, this is enough. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      I'm saying that they acknowledge his resurrection and that's how he's shown to do it. With no further lore on the subject, this is enough. 

      They acknowledge his resurrection and he is shown to do it in multiple ways.

      One of which seems to be more tied to gameplay.

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    • Which you have no basis for other than it being a respawn point, which we've established precedents for being canon for, has their "checkpoint" marker as being mentioned by the sculptor and made by him, etc etc.

      I don't really see a point in ignoring it. 

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    • I fail to see how the checkpoints being made by a specific person signifies anything related to respawning an entire body.

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    • To clarify: The Sculptor is implied to be literally just like you. You find him one-armed, aged, saving you before you gained your immortality. For some odd reason he has a shinobi prosthetic (later informs you he is, or was, a shinobi himself) who lost his own arm. You then take his place in one ending. It isn't a gap to say that the Sculptor was likely immortal once, too. What role these sculptures play in said immortality are unknown, only that they are indeed linked somehow. 

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    • Seems like a lot of uncertain extrapolation rather than hard evidence.

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    • Anttron224 wrote:
      Seems like a lot of uncertain extrapolation rather than hard evidence.

      Welcome to the entirety of Soulsborne, if you're new to the series. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Anttron224 wrote:
      Seems like a lot of uncertain extrapolation rather than hard evidence.
      Welcome to the entirety of Soulsborne, if you're new to the series. 

      Not really? In regards to resurrection Bloodborne and Dark Souls explain their mechanics rather explicitly, although that may be because they're explored more thoroughly by the series and by analysts.


      Regardless this strikes me as more of a theory than a solid explanation.

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    • Alright, I can't find a link that tells it succinctly so I'll explain. Dark Souls isn't meant to have solid explanation. Asking for that entirely misses the point and if you're not a fan of using the most plausible conjecture and theories, don't interact with it.

      The game was built with this mindset in mind. When Miyazaki (lead developer/president) was a child, he was (obviously) born in Japan to a relatively barebones-money family. Because of this, his family couldn't afford tons of books and manga so he'd read at the library and anywhere else he could get a book, meaning he'd often find books in other languages.

      Miyazaki did something relatively famous here. Since his grasp on English was relatively limited, a lot of the words were things he wouldn't understand. So he'd fill in the gaps, explain the story himself. This is the philosophy intentionally used in these games. You're expected to substantiate some parts of the story with the most reasonable assumptions.

      So here, having resurrection being canon, having people acknowledge the places you resurrect, by a person who is likely knowledgeable on resurrection, all seem like good enough. But hey, what would I know, eh? Kek. 

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    • I get Dark Souls isn't supposed to be direct. That's why I don't question Dark Souls resurrection because it's explained as the Darksign, and we only get one visual representation of it in-game with respawning. 

      In the case of Sekiro; you just know that he A) Resurrects and B) There's a weird connection between the Buddha Statues and people who resurrect. The Darksign, while its mechanics aren't explained clearly, does have clear-ingame explanations (and even out of game explanations with the trailers and QnA) as to how it resurrects the undead.

      We don't have that for the Sekiro checkpoints; we just get the vague idea of "he resurrects", and in-game we have multiple ways this can be taken in.

      I'm not saying "give me direct scans or get out of here bub"; I'm asking for information on Sekiro roughly equivalent to the previous standard we have for these games, Dark Souls and Bloodborne.

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    • IMO this topic on ressurection should be covered in a different thread

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    • Sekiro: Shadows Die How Many Times?

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    • We have a discussion thread, you can bring it up there if you like.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:2952990

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    • Seriously people, this fight isn't restricted to only win by death if i'm not wrong 

      Meaning even a K.O would mark a win 

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    • Yes. But the point is, votes are being made on the premise Geralt kills, which is physically impossible. 

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    • >Geralt kills wolf 

      >he kills him again 

      >realizes that he can't kill him

      >tries to use methods to kill him in a conventional way 

      >doesn't work

      >just leaves wolf unconscious knocking him out 

      >Victory 

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    • If you ignore any reasonable effort on the part of the opponent, sure. 

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    • It isn't hard for someone to get used from something that happens oftenly 

      especially when we are talking about geralt 

      someone with nearly a century of sword fighting experience and a master of preperation 

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    • what are you talking about?

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    • They said that since Wolf regens everytime he dies Geralt can get used to it quite quickly and find other means of dispatching him since he has decades of combat experience under his belt, whereas Wolf has barely a decade of experience considering he's in his mid 20s and its unlikely that he spent the first 10 years of his life fighting monsters and other warriors.

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    • ...

      Okay so the first bit is still ignoring the fact that Wolf can do anything at all and his aforementioned skill feat

      The second bit is that yes, he actually has been fighting since he was literally a child. If you watched the opening cutscene of the game you'd see him get taken in by Owl to train to be a shinobi. Literally all they ever do is train. Time =/= Skill but hey, at least I can clear that up. 

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    • Still 20 years of fighting isnt equal to more than 7 decades worth. Time = skill when you spend the entire time training, fighting and working, especially when you're a monster slayer and a mercenary.

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    • No it isn't, not when Wolf has a better skill feat. 

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    • Not really, considering it was already stated above that warrior or fighter humans in  the Witcher are 9-A in ap, but lack Geralt's skill

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    • And Wolf's warriors were 9-A and Gyoubu beat tons of them. 

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    • Seriously power doesn't even mean anything here... 

      Geralt not only has a bigger arsenal and spells to use but his fighting ​​​​​​techniques always adpat to what oppenet/monster he is fighting (even if the monster is physically superior to geralt) 

      when geralt defeats wolf and fights him again the round would be a lot easier for geralt knowing what type of opponent he is fighting 

      and wolf isn't something new either 

      as mentioned multiple time in this thread he has fought immortals and even witchers that are assassins  (Basically more enhanced ninjas) 

      also important to mention, geralt and other witchers are trained since childhood

      thier first training begins as early as 5 year old and going through trial of the grasses (where they become true witchers) at the age of at least 8 or 9 

      not to consider other trials they have to go through and if they fail only one they are doomed to die 



      seriously the only thing that is saving wolf is his immortality 

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    • 1. It is.

      2. "Bigger arsenal" doesn't equate to better arsenal. If we're on the subject, Wolf has better latent abilities- his Type 4 resurrection is considerably better than Geralt's Witcher senses, as an example. Furthermore, Wolf isn't some misc. monster from Witcher- so that isn't an argument, really.

      3. If he does. Wolf's skill feat is still superior to Geralt's lifetime (especially when you consider Wolf does kill people like Owl with the same lifetime of experience, and again, time =/= skill) and with Wolf capable of one-shotting with a Deathblow, this might be a bit different than you envision it in your head.

      4. "more enhanced ninjas" lol

      5. Irrelevant with Wolf's superior skill feat, but for the record, so was Owl and Butterfly. Didn't save them.

      6. Seriously, the only thing keeping Wolf down is the fact that you aren't accounting for what he has. 

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    • Don't just ignore mindhax. If Wolf's rezing starts to become irritating, he can always tell him to get lost.

      In fact, you get an option to tell that idiot with a deathwish to go away in this quest here: https://witcher.fandom.com/wiki/Face_Me_if_You_Dare!

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    • I'm not. Mindhax is the only reason I wouldn't outright call this in Wolf's favor (you're forgetting I'm voting Incon). Geralt has one move that can reasonably incap Wolf that he would go for in-character in the form of mindhax signs. His senses are arguably superior to Wolf's stealth, his skill isn't harshly outdone and his experience with resurrection users means that if he's noted Wolf reviving then he could seek alternative methods.

      I'd also like to put forward the fact that Axii isn't permanent. It lasts like... seconds, if I recall. It could allow Geralt to incap. But he isn't assured to lead with it, nor does it guarantee success with mindhax gg. Every vote ignores this. 

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    • I guess I'll switch to inconclusive for now

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    • Axii lasts forever though. It lasting seconds during combat is clearly gameplay mechanics since when used during cutscenes, it doesn't show any signs (xd) of wearing off.

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    • Switch my vote to inconclusive then.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      1. It is.

      2. "Bigger arsenal" doesn't equate to better arsenal. If we're on the subject, Wolf has better latent abilities- his Type 4 resurrection is considerably better than Geralt's Witcher senses, as an example. Furthermore, Wolf isn't some misc. monster from Witcher- so that isn't an argument, really.

      3. If he does. Wolf's skill feat is still superior to Geralt's lifetime (especially when you consider Wolf does kill people like Owl with the same lifetime of experience, and again, time =/= skill) and with Wolf capable of one-shotting with a Deathblow, this might be a bit different than you envision it in your head.

      4. "more enhanced ninjas" lol

      5. Irrelevant with Wolf's superior skill feat, but for the record, so was Owl and Butterfly. Didn't save them.

      6. Seriously, the only thing keeping Wolf down is the fact that you aren't accounting for what he has. 

      >It is

      Umm you do realize that wolf doesn't outright just fight with everyone 

      majority of the time he just parries and makes the opponent lose his guard and hits them in a ciritcal area of the body which makes an instant win for wolf sometimes 

      Unlike geralt who fights with some opponenets that are outright suprior to him in terms of Raw power 



      And you just proved me that you aren't the wised when it comes to the witcher franchise 

      so to just let you know he he has potions that can make him faster, stronger, and more durable plus pain tolerance and faster regeneration  (these are just a few examples) 

      Twelve types of bombs with each unqiue types of effects (freezing, blinding, exploding, and burning oponents) 

      oils that he can cover his blades to make his blades a lot more deadly than they already are

      signs that can help geralt even if all of his other items are used

      what...

      I mean type 4 immortality is good but it doesn't apply in battle (the only usefulness it has it's when wolf dies) unlike geralts witcher senses which can be quiet useful in battle and again you're ignoring that geralt can use his signs which are more useful than most of wolf's prosthetic arm upgrades and his skills 

      what i was saying is that geralt can be quick to adapt to his opponents techniques and that also goes for humanoids because you see geralt didn't only fight some unexpernced soldiers with a sword 

      he has fought mages, the wild hunt, elves, and even a black hole creating lizard-man

      i could go on and on with these examples 




      >If he does. Wolf's skill feat is still superior to Geralt's lifetime

      W-What the hell are you even talking about

      Geralt is proclaimed best swordsman in the damn franchise 

      he trained by one the oldest and most experienced witcher to have ever lived since childhood 

      he has worth nearly a century of fighting beasts, humans, non-humans, demons, djins, mages, assassins, etc. 

      how is that inferior to wolf's skill? 

      and deathblow is literally negated by the fact of there being a sign called quen... 

      To explain shortly quen is a shield that protects geralt from every type of attack, if he wants he can create even a more durable quen shield which is capable of tanking a meteorite and even make the shield explode if it's hit by anything 



      well that is the closest thing they resemble really so i used that term...



      as said geralt was trained by the most skilled witcher at that time so it isn't irrelevant



      Literally the only thing that is saving wolf is his type 4 immortality 

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    • A small correction. Geralt is the best swordsman alive in the verse. In the entire verse, Vilgefortz was beating the ever living shit out of Geralt using a stick. In fact, Vilgefortz skillstomps the entire verse in pretty much every field and I should make a profile for him sometime.

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    • Where does it establish itself as permanent? Even if it lasts for the duration of a cutscene, why would it be permanent?

      As for Gribble... I don't even know what this is about, to be honest. They both are perfectly capable of outright fighting. 

      These points are also moot when none of them assist him in overcoming Wolf's own abilities.

      "geralt is the best in the verse" doesn't apply to another verse. Wolf's skill feat is qualitatively superior in that Gyoubu defeated hundreds of other fully skilled 9-As through skill alone. Regardless of Geralt's statements, he lacks a feat on such a level. And Wolf is > Gyoubu. 

      Tanking a meteorite doesn't matter. For one, the surface area of a piercing weapon to blunt force makes a significant difference in durability. Furthermore, deathblows can literally one-shot comparable enemies. So yes, Deathblow does in fact matter.

      Statements < Feats, for skill. Someone being "the best martial artist alive" doesn't mean anything in a fight when the other character has actual feats displaying absurd skill. 

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    • Wall of text incoming. Sorry Bambu.

      Lots of Responses

      Mr. Bambu wrote:

      "Bigger arsenal" doesn't equate to better arsenal. If we're on the subject, Wolf has better latent abilities- his Type 4 resurrection is considerably better than Geralt's Witcher senses, as an example. Furthermore, Wolf isn't some misc. monster from Witcher- so that isn't an argument, really.

      I'd rather bench the Type 4 discussion for another thread; I'll be back from vacation in a day and can discuss it more reliably.

      That put, Witcher senses are a hard counter to Sekiro's Type 4 no matter how you spin it. He'd be able to track Sekiro down and take him out before he can even realize it given his skills in hunting down monsters with equatable senses.

      And yeah, Sekiro isn't some mook Geralt can take out easily. But Geralt isn't an idiot, and has abilities and wincons he will exercise well before Sekiro gets the jump on him.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      3. If he does. Wolf's skill feat is still superior to Geralt's lifetime (especially when you consider Wolf does kill people like Owl with the same lifetime of experience, and again, time =/= skill) and with Wolf capable of one-shotting with a Deathblow, this might be a bit different than you envision it in your head.

      Experience =/= Skill. This is where statements come in handy, Geralt has literally fought and trained since adolescence, killing some rando who lived a long time with little detailed backstory is absolutely no grounds to make any such claim.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      5. Irrelevant with Wolf's superior skill feat

      It really isn't 'superior'.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Where does it establish itself as permanent? Even if it lasts for the duration of a cutscene, why would it be permanent?

      I mean, considering the people he uses his Jedi Mind Tricks on don't come back while furious to mess Geralt up, I'd imagine it lasts long enough for the Witcher to get too far for them to follow him, which would essentially cause Wolf to self-BFR.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      "geralt is the best in the verse" doesn't apply to another verse. Wolf's skill feat is qualitatively superior in that Gyoubu defeated hundreds of other fully skilled 9-As through skill alone. Regardless of Geralt's statements, he lacks a feat on such a level. And Wolf is > Gyoubu.

      Wolf beating other skilled 9-As just means he beat them through skill. It says nothing of their skill and what he did to overcome them.

      Meanwhile, Geralt being superior to literally everyone in an area that spans an area that includes multiple countries actually says much about his skill; he's not just more skilled than a group of 9-As, he's more skilled than everyone.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Tanking a meteorite doesn't matter. For one, the surface area of a piercing weapon to blunt force makes a significant difference in durability. Furthermore, deathblows can literally one-shot comparable enemies. So yes, Deathblow does in fact matter.

      Geralt's armor is made of materials like Chainmail that resist slashing attacks and can also help against peircing attacks.

      Sekiro doesn't get close enough to deathblow before Geralt uses any of his signs to kill him.

      Sekiro can't stealth as per discussions above.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Statements < Feats, for skill. Someone being "the best martial artist alive" doesn't mean anything in a fight when the other character has actual feats displaying absurd skill. 

      No, it's entirely contextual, and you speak as if Geralt has no visual feats of skill, which he does in spades, over three games and a novel series.

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    • nobody is ever sorry enough, you see

      Geralt's senses aren't a counter, they are a mitigating factor. They are a counter to stealth. If that were Wolf's sole means of combat, then we'd be in trouble, but literally every major boss fight is fought without stealth. It isn't as if Wolf only uses stealth.

      Wolf has defeated people who have the same training as Geralt. Lady Butterfly for one. Wolf's skill feat is also still higher. 

      How is it not? Wolf > Genichiro > Gyoubu who fought and defeated hundreds of skilled soldiers/shinobi-esque warriors all of whom had equal AP. I don't see how that isn't better than rofling handfuls of other skilled 9-As.

      If somebody jedi mind tricked me, I wouldn't come back, either. Don't care if it was permanent, shit's scary. Also... if Geralt leaves the default battlefield, that's sorta just self BFR. I assume he won't, but that wouldn't leave Wolf incapacitated for 24 hours.

      This is literally a single one of the 9-As defeated by Gyoubu. Wolf is also more skilled than everyone. That's the point. Gyoubu isn't bad for skill in the verse, but Wolf literally beats everyone despite having relatively lower AP. 

      Chainmail isn't a significant enough detriment. Deathblow isn't enacted purely from stealth.

      He doesn't have one comparable to Wolf's.

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    • Wall of Text 2: Electric Boogaloo
      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Geralt's senses aren't a counter, they are a mitigating factor. They are a counter to stealth. If that were Wolf's sole means of combat, then we'd be in trouble, but literally every major boss fight is fought without stealth. It isn't as if Wolf only uses stealth.

      I'm saying it's a counter to Type 4, not a counter to Sekiro entirely. Although Geralt has plenty of other signs and tools to take him out at a comfortable distance in regular combat. Remember, Geralt has tons of traps in his arsenal and Yrden acting as a sentry/magical trap that zaps or slows the hecc out of Sekiro when he's near.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Wolf has defeated people who have the same training as Geralt. Lady Butterfly for one. Wolf's skill feat is also still higher. 


      Lady Butterfly trained and fought for over a century straight? When was this explained, and can I have a link?

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       How is it not? Wolf > Genichiro > Gyoubu who fought and defeated hundreds of skilled soldiers/shinobi-esque warriors all of whom had equal AP. I don't see how that isn't better than rofling handfuls of other skilled 9-As.


      How were they defeated, when were they defeated, and what are their feats of skill?

      Geralt doesn't just rofl over skilled 9-As; he's the best in that area, period, including people with lower AP values, which makes the pool of people he's superior to vastly greater. Especially when you consider this is a medieval-esque world that has people trained in swordfighting in every single settlement, with bandit camps full of them.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       If somebody jedi mind tricked me, I wouldn't come back, either. Don't care if it was permanent, shit's scary. Also... if Geralt leaves the default battlefield, that's sorta just self BFR. I assume he won't, but that wouldn't leave Wolf incapacitated for 24 hours.


      To be entirely fair, villagers and bandits can literally chase Geralt down across the entire map if Geralt doesn't straight-up outspeed him, and peasants in the Witcher are notably very vengeful and travel great distances in mobs.

      I'm not entirely sure if that would be a win for Geralt or Wolf, as they would both mutually be leaving the battlefield, if you want to go down that line of logic.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       This is literally a single one of the 9-As defeated by Gyoubu. Wolf is also more skilled than everyone. That's the point. Gyoubu isn't bad for skill in the verse, but Wolf literally beats everyone despite having relatively lower AP. 


      That guy seems to be faring well only by virtue of having a stupidly massive healthpool. Realistically if Sekiro and the character were on equal footing in AP and durability they'd be down in no less than a dozen seconds into that video.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Chainmail isn't a significant enough detriment. Deathblow isn't enacted purely from stealth.


      It sort of does. Since AP and dura are near each other stuff like armor composition comes into play big time here.

      If not through stealth, how else is Wolf getting near Geralt? He's certainly not running at him Lancelot style and getting away with it.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       

      He doesn't have one comparable to Wolf's.


      That seems like a subjective opinion as opposed to objective reasoning. I've posted skill feats for Geralt and you've posted for Wolf, at that point it would be votes that should determine which seem to be more impressive.

      Although if you go by RL standards they both sort of suck, depending on the given cutscene

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    • Mindhax doesn't just wear off in X amount of time unless shown to do so. And the one who got mindhaxed is the one getting BFRed, not the one who leaves cuz he has nothing to do.

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    • Gonna deal with the lesser comment first...

      @Tactical Except it is shown to. The only argument against this is that it lasts through cutscenes. And... frankly, I'd assume Geralt wouldn't just leave a genuine threat there, so that line of reasoning is moot.

      Now for this.

      It isn't a counter to type 4 as Type 4 still functions to its fullest extent regardless of how Geralt uses his albeit absurdly good senses. A counter to type four would completely negate the use of it. None of Geralt's arsenal does this.

      Her entire life. Not a century, I'll grant you. Judging from eyeballing her, she's over 60, likely heading to 70, and that's being pretty generous. So Geralt's "lifetime of becoming rlly skilled" isn't even 2x Butterfly's. And that still is inferior to outright feats.

      Wolf is also the best in the area via single handedly destroying the Ashina castle defenses albeit unintentionally. They were defeated with Gyoubu's spear before the gates of Ashina Castle (their corpses are spread about the area). When? I suppose sometime before Wolf got there. Their corpses haven't been treated to the typical thrown-inna-bag-and-burned treatment yet so... not long, I suppose? See their video above.

      Peasents are also typically not the brightest of folks. Just saying "well they didn't come back" isn't a good argument for something being permanent when that could be for any number of other reasons. 

      "Faring well"? Boss Fight (the player) is abusing every weakness by right of having prior knowledge. Just looking at his technique it is relatively obvious they're greater than real life variants of soldiers in terms of skill.

      I more meant it isn't a significant enough detriment when Geralt has points that aren't covered by Chainmail and Sekiro will target those. Was that Deadliest Warrior btw?

      It really isn't. Geralt's lifetime of experience isn't quantifiably comparable to Wolf's own skill feat scaling. 

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    • Wall of Text 3: The Reckoning
      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       It isn't a counter to type 4 as Type 4 still functions to its fullest extent regardless of how Geralt uses his albeit absurdly good senses. A counter to type four would completely negate the use of it. None of Geralt's arsenal does this.

      As I've said we should discuss how Wolf's Type 4 actually functions before we continue discussing it. However, I'm speaking that it counters Type 4 in that, if Wolf immediately resurrects Geralt would notice right away, and if he yeets to the nearest Buddhist Temple, Geralt would track and kill him from stealth before he becomes a meaningful threat.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Her entire life. Not a century, I'll grant you. Judging from eyeballing her, she's over 60, likely heading to 70, and that's being pretty generous. So Geralt's "lifetime of becoming rlly skilled" isn't even 2x Butterfly's. And that still is inferior to outright feats.


      I'd personally like a link. And training + fighting at the same time is superior to simply training your entire life. Geralt has far more practical experience and it shows in his fights.

      Your mistake is saying it isn't an outright feat, when Geralt's resume speaks to the contrary. His entire lifestyle is hunting and taking out beasts with various different abilities, and fighting off warriors and small armies.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Wolf is also the best in the area via single handedly destroying the Ashina castle defenses albeit unintentionally. They were defeated with Gyoubu's spear before the gates of Ashina Castle (their corpses are spread about the area). When? I suppose sometime before Wolf got there. Their corpses haven't been treated to the typical thrown-inna-bag-and-burned treatment yet so... not long, I suppose? See their video above.


      Is this directly or through the typical Soulesborne "kill a group here and there" style? You've also established Wolf uses stealth, if this happens off-screen what says he didn't use stealth to take them out, which would be far more likely for such a large castle?

      If we don't see it happen, we can't reason Wolf rofled them in skill when he has other weapons and methods at his disposal than facing them all at once.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       Peasents are also typically not the brightest of folks. Just saying "well they didn't come back" isn't a good argument for something being permanent when that could be for any number of other reasons.


      Let me rephrase; Geralt can come back to the same exact areas later in the game, after he uses signs, and nobody bats an eye when he uses his signs. It's not just that they "didn't come back".

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       "Faring well"? Boss Fight (the player) is abusing every weakness by right of having prior knowledge. Just looking at his technique it is relatively obvious they're greater than real life variants of soldiers in terms of skill.


      More flashy sword-swinging =/= better in skill, for starters. The dude is taking hits every other couple of seconds; if anything that's an indicator for pretty poor swordplay, especially considering he's just wailing on Wolf for most of the fight. Geralt's swordplay doesn't look as interesting, I'll give you that, but that's not what's relevant here.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       I more meant it isn't a significant enough detriment when Geralt has points that aren't covered by Chainmail and Sekiro will target those. Was that Deadliest Warrior btw?


      No idea, although if you doubt my sources I can link other examples of Katanas and other eastern weaponry failing against chainmail.

      You mean his head? Sekiro isn't getting remotely close enough to Geralt for that to matter.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:
       

      It really isn't. Geralt's lifetime of experience isn't quantifiably comparable to Wolf's own skill feat scaling. 


      Sure it is. The fact that Geralt isn't dead in a ditch after fighting monsters and warriors repeatedly for his entire life is a feat.

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    • Dargoo I have places to be today this can't keep happening

      It seems we're hitting a lot of the same points repeatedly. So I'm gonna go through this and reiterate that I'm not arguing conclusive superiority between them. I'm arguing inconclusive as Geralt has an arsenal that can overcome Wolf and Wolf can potentially one-shot (to really grind down the arguments). 

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    • I also do agree a discussion for Wolf's immortality should be had. Furthermore we need Winston to clarify the locale of the battle better as it might not even be relevant. Until then, I'm waiting. 

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    • I'm fine with waiting until you're ready; I'm also going to be busy in around 10 minutes.

      Maybe later today or tomorrow; until then I can talk sporadically on discord.

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    • Because cutscenes are part of the story and combat is gameplay.

      More skilled is more skilled. And if Oniwa is the best feat then Geralt takes skill with absolute ease. For instance, take this scene where Geralt goes to capture a castle but two extremely weakened higher vampires (Regis hasn't drunk blood since the Fox Hollow incident and Dettlaff also is likely an abstainer) pretty much solo the castle's troops for him. A point worth noting is that the vampires aren't teleporting, they're just fast af.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfWl8eHbZ6o

      And Geralt can take them on and win, although with high difficulty.

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    • how is a castle being taken by a far speedier duo better than a single guy of equal AP taking out the federal army

      Still gonna be busy (running D&D) but what

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    • Hey there, so I'm out a lot recently so I'm stuck on mobile. I'll try and update the vote count when I get back tomorrow cause I don't think we have enough for grace

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    • Okay, so I think I've made the vote count right. Sorry been really busy IRL so I may be wrong, hopefully its right.

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    • Bump, just wanna ask we still doing this thing?

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    • Why men throw their lives away attacking an armed bump... I'll never know. Something wrong with my face?

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    • Bump

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    • Has Wolf ever actually commuted suicide in game or no?

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    • Canonically I dont think he used a bite down or hidden tooth

      However in one of the endings he does commit suicide

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    • So

      Geralt tells him to die and he uses the mortal blade and dies?

      Edit: Nvm he doesn't have it in this key

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    • considering that northen wind freezes opponents solid seen here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwCXw8m0PHI

      i'd give it to geralt via incapacitation and far higher skill 

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    • Thanks for the video. Bambu, that archer is a mob enemy and Letho outskills him and Geralt outskills dozens of such archers as well as Letho.

      Letho is added to my Witcher profile creation project. Guy's badass enough to warrant a profile. I am currently researching Vilgefortz, Villentretenmerth/Borkh, Renfri, Princess Ada, Azar Zaved, Jacques de Aldersberg, Leo Bonhart and now, Letho "the Kingslayer" of Gulet.

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    • If we're going by numbers Wolf's feat is still better though.

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    • Did you see the archer's skill? Shot 4 pumpkins(?) which were shot away from him via ballista before any of them could hit the water

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    • TacticalNuke002 wrote: 

      Letho is added to my Witcher profile creation project. Guy's badass enough to warrant a profile. I am currently researching Vilgefortz, Villentretenmerth/Borkh, Renfri, Princess Ada, Azar Zaved, Jacques de Aldersberg, Leo Bonhart and now, Letho "the Kingslayer" of Gulet.

      ooooo vilgefortz 

      he should be at least 7C as he was stated to be one of if not the most powerful sorcerer that ever lived 

      plus he was able to beat down geralt in a 1v1 

      and it took yenefer geralt and ciri to actually kill the mofo 

      also hell yeah he deserves a profile the guy is a legend

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      If we're going by numbers Wolf's feat is still better though.

      if we going by numbers geralt can clear out bandit camps that are filled to the brim with bandits each of whom can hurt geralt(9A) and there are at least 100 of them and unlike Gyoubu we actually see geralt take them all at once

      also what puts wolf above gyobu in terms of skill here? this is early game wolf who was beaten by Genchiro (don't even about that alternitive scene its an alternitive for a reason) and he just got his prostetic arm so i'd say he is at best even with genchiro 

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    • I'm not speaking of bandits. I'm speaking of groups of relatively equal AP and superior numbers. Gyoubu defeated an army of Lone Swordsmen.

      What? The possibility of defeating Genichiro is literally a canon possibility.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote: I'm not speaking of bandits. I'm speaking of groups of relatively equal AP and superior numbers. Gyoubu defeated an army of Lone Swordsmen.

      What? The possibility of defeating Genichiro is literally a canon possibility.

      I'm pretty sure clearing out a bandit camp filled with hundreds of Order of the Flaming Rose deserters who have turned to banditry isn't a feat to be scoffed at. The Order of the Flaming Rose is one of the most elite military outfits in the Northern Realms. They are the Knights Templar of the Witcher verse, the very best you can get.

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    • those bandits in tusante are dangurse enough that they are a danger to the city itself and the city gurd can't deal with them 

      not to mention that said bandits are capable of killing geralt in a 1v1 geralt is just far too skilled for them to even be touched 

      yeah a possibility not a defenitive one hell you are meant to lose to him in your first fight 

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    • not to mention what tactical just mentioned

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    • also wanted to ask what exactly makes the 100 swordsmen 9A since ya know this here fella: Leader Shigenori Yamauchi

      isn't a defenitive 9A and he is supposed to be a skilled swords men 

      what makes the 100 lone swordsmen 9A is it a statement that i missed or?

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    • They're a mini boss AFTER Gyoubu.

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    • hm ok

      my mistake then seem to have forgoten

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    • Random peasant gang killed vampire horde. Conscripted soldiers >= peasants. Volunteers > conscripts. Veterans > volunteers. Elites (Dun Banner, Blue Stripes) > veterans. OotFR > elites. Toussaint knights > OotFR. Witchers > Toussaint knights. Geralt > all other witchers.

      As a reference, individual Toussaint knights should be able to clear the OotFR bandit camp too, considering that the two knights that accompany Geralt to Toussaint were preparing to fight a bandit horde themselves.

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    • that's some jojo scaling right there 

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    • GribbleTheTrashMan wrote:
      that's some jojo scaling right there 

      This.

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    • Bump/rez

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Bump rez

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    • GirbbletheTrashman here with an alt-account because i forgot the password of the other account

      I changed my vote to inconclusive

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    • Incon FRA.

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    • Which shifts vote to...

      Geralt- 5

      Wolf- 0

      Incon- 6

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    • well guess that least more 1 voting on incon.

      while check vote count by username?

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    • I'm still curious if the incon vote or the Geralt vote takes precedence on a 7-7 tie.

      iirc the Geralt vote would take precedence, don't quote me on that.

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    • well guess begin gace ends for 24hrs.

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    • Bump, we still doing this?

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    • Bump

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    • well guess grace ends now later added up.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • We need 1 more inconclusive vote or 2 more for Geralt.

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    • Bump, can someone put me outta my misery please

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    • Changing to incon. Let it end

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    • you know what just to make stillwinston life just a bit easier ima change my vote to inconclusive(type 8) and let us be done with this 

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