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  • Schnee One
    Schnee One closed this thread because:
    GAZEF wins
    15:02, May 22, 2019

    Can't believe I didn't think of this yet considering both characters are pretty similar.

    Gazef Stronoff

    vs

    Bercouli Synthesis One

    Rules:

    • Base Bercouli vs With the Kingdom's Treasures Gazef.
    • Speed equalized.
    • In-character, but know one another is a threat.
    • Win by death.
    • The battle takes place in an open battlefield.

    Score:

    Gazef: 4

    Bercouli: 0

    Inconclusive: 0

    Gazef Armor
    Bercoulisynthesisone
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    • So they both basically have a one-shot sword strike.

      How likely is Bercouli to strike the past and one-shot?

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    • If he knows the enemy's a threat (which he knows Gazef is in this situation), he'd likely use it pretty quickly, though I'm not sure if it'll be the first thing he does or not.

      Usually in-character he'd spam slash the future to create a sort of "barrier of slashes" around him, making the entire area essentially a minefield to traverse. Said slashes also protect against ranged attacks, which is how he's able to beat so many ranged users.

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    • Gazef, with Info Analysis, will certainly not be holding back. Plus, considering his dura negation is his weapon, he's going to be using it first.

      AP is basically meaningless in this fight.

      Gazef and Bercouli both have amp, but Gazef doesn't have "aftercast delay".

      Gazef has info analysis and his sword has innate dura negation, so he's very likely to go for the dura neg. one-shot first.

      Bercouli has magic, but Gazef has quite a bit of resistances, anyways.



      Overall, I'll give this to Gazef. Sixfold Slash of Light has incredible range, and seeing as there's six slashes, Bercouli would find it impossible to dodge all of them. They both amp speed and strength, but Gazef has Sense Weakness and Possibility Sense, so Gazef is certainly going to go for the kill as quickly as possible. As well, regards to amp, Sword Skills have an aftercast delay, while Gazef has multiple skills and buffs that he can stack to likely amp even higher than Bercouli.

      Not to mention, Guardian Armor prevents instant-kill attacks. If that works against Bercouli, then Gazef certainly takes this.



      I vote Gazef. A barrier of slashes really doesn't seem like it can work against Sixfold Slash of Light, and even if it did, Gazef has arguably better amp, a higher likelyhood of going for the one-shot, and Guardian Armor.

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    • Gazef FRA

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    • Bercouli doesn't really use Sword Skills much, instead relying on the ability of his Time Piercing Sword.

      Remember, Incarnation exists and Bercouli can use it at will, so he could definitely get past those strikes. Once Bercouli sees how well his enemy fights, he's immediately going for Release Recollection.

      Even if the armor prevents one shots, that'll only prevent Gazef's Life from dipping to 0, not the slash itself. It will still connect cleanly within Gazef, and considering the AP difference (Gazef is above 0.4 while Bercouli is above 1.4), that's still enough to one shot.

      Anyways, I still think AP might actually be an important factor here, since Bercouli could potentially one shot with a good placement of his slash.

      Also you're forgetting that Bercouli would've set up an entire minefield of slashes. If Gazef tries to close the distance (which he will have to with his Sixfold Slash of Light), he'll get cut. Incarnation would mess with Gazef's Sense Weakness and Possibility Sense, making it even harder for him.

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    • 1.4 vs 0.4 isn't really enough to one-shot.

      As well, Sixfold Slash of Light has more range than Bercouli's swords.

      While Bercouli could reality warp and sneak out a win, more often than a not, Gazef lands literally any attack with his sword and wins.

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    • Gazef swings his blade

      FRA

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    • " considering the AP difference (Gazef is above 0.4 while Bercouli is above 1.4), that's still enough to one shot."

      A difference of 0.4 and 1.4 isn't enough to 1-shot.

      1-shot territory is more in the range of 14x difference in general fiction. A 3.5x difference isn't enough to 1-shot somebody.

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    • Gazef FRA

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    • I believe x7.5 was the agreed upon amount to one-shot.

      Although regardless, Bercouli isn't one-shotting.

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    • That's not even 3.5x, that's not enough to one shot, not even half

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    • None of the special arts from Gazef up his endurance, so he's still needing to go across a field of slashes 3 times his endurance. Even worse, the skill for Sixfold Slash of Light explicitly mentions how it's best used against groups because Gazef can't really control the direction of the slashes. Which, against the Probability Manipulation of Incarnation isn't a very good combo.

      Like, Bercouli has used his "predicting where and when in time within 10 minutes someone will be" shtick against people on the level of the Integrity Knights, especially Fanatio who was comparable to Kirito to the level neither of them used any Sword Arts because they never found any chance to amidst a continuous sword slashes and who has ranged attacks.

      Finally, I don't see Gazef actually surviving the slash to the past. Even though he's way above him, Ainz used a simple instant kill attack whose only special feature is that it doesn't allow resurrection. His instant kill works by fucking around with Aincrad's systems in ways it was never made for. It's not even damage, or death manipulation, you just drop to 0.

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      None of the special arts from Gazef up his endurance, so he's still needing to go across a field of slashes 3 times his endurance. Even worse, the skill for Sixfold Slash of Light explicitly mentions how it's best used against groups because Gazef can't really control the direction of the slashes. Which, against the Probability Manipulation of Incarnation isn't a very good combo.

      Like, Bercouli has used his "predicting where and when in time within 10 minutes someone will be" shtick against people on the level of the Integrity Knights, especially Fanatio who was comparable to Kirito to the level neither of them used any Sword Arts because they never found any chance to amidst a continuous sword slashes and who has ranged attacks.

      Finally, I don't see Gazef actually surviving the slash to the past. Even though he's way above him, Ainz used a simple instant kill attack whose only special feature is that it doesn't allow resurrection. His instant kill works by fucking around with Aincrad's systems in ways it was never made for. It's not even damage, or death manipulation, you just drop to 0.

      First point, I already debunked that Sixfold Slash of Light and similar sword skills would have longer range than Bercouli's sword attacks, with the exception of some sword skills I don't know about.

      Second, if Bercouli doesn't use his Sword Skills often, that means Gazef will be amping far, far above what Bercouli could deal with. Speed amps in Overlord are enough to massively increase speeds, enough to easily strike Bercouli before he could even put down more than a slash or two.

      Three, not only is Gazef more likely to instakill slash.gg, but Gazef's armor would likely prevent it. Ainz's death hax, depending on the spell, can bypass lower-level resistances such as Gazef's.

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    • Except Bercouli doesn't need to stay close at all to his slashes, and this doesn't change Incarnation screwing up Sixfold Slash of Light.

      Gazef already has a sword that disregards his durability, amping really won't change much, except for amping speed. And all that needs to land is a single slash for Gazef to be way more wary, and I don't see him literally amping his speed that much to start with unless he really thinks things are that dangerous. He can keep going due to his Gauntlet of infinite stamina, but he still feels the effects of the Arts.

      The only instant kill that exists in Overlord is Death Manipulation though, which isn't what this is.

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    • Bercouli's one shot isn't really a traditional one shot. It essentially "glitches the game" to one shot the opponent. Gazef's armor that prevents one shots, if we equalize verses, has only been shown to prevent conventional one shots, such as death manipulation.

      It has not been shown to prevent one shots that are essentially reality warping, as glitching the game would be in a verse equalization senario.

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    • I am fairly sure that 'turning someone's health to zero' is a one-shot.

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    • It's not by means that's normal though. Remember, we've only seen Gazef being able to resist one shots by conventional means within the rules of the world. We've never seen him handle something that essentially breaks the laws of the world and "glitches" it to drop the opponent to 0.

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    • Within the rules of the world would probably be verse equalized, since that’s kinda how things work.

      Even if it does work, which it probably won’t, Gazef is still more likely to strike first, as his slashes are easier to hit, have more range, and include literally all of his slashes rather than only ones to the past.

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    • Verse equalized means that Bercouli's attack is essentially breaking the rules of reality to slice the opponent. Has Gazef's armor ever defended against that?

      Bercouli doesn't even need to hit Gazef to kill him in the past. All he needs to do is slash in a random direction and Gazef will already be cut in the past, killing him instantly, so Gazef doesn't have an advantage in his dura neg attack.

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    • Gazef is faster and more likely to use his attack, since Gazef amps more often and uses dura negation more often. So he still has that advantage, yes.

      Bercouli is less likely to slash the past, is slower, and even the one-shot is debatable.

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    • The only advantages Gazef has is weakness finding, seeing his chances of winning, stat amp.

      Bercouli has a maaaaaaaaaasive experience advantage, AP advantage, and reality warping (in both Incarnation and slashing the past), and having essentially a minefield of slashes the moment the battle starts, making it difficult for Gazef to even move anywhere.

      Gazef wouldn't start off with Sixfold Slashes of Light most likely, and would likely try to close the distance, which would get him slashed.

      Also, now that I remember, yes, Bercouli can likely one shot Gazef. If Eugeo stepped a little bit more forward, he would have been one shotted, and he's 8-C+. And even then, with a little knick Eugeo was nearly critically injured. Because Gazef is so much lower in AP than Eugeo, it's safe to say Bercouli is in the one-shot range.

      One last thing. In all of his appearances so far, Sixfold Slashes of Light is shown to be a melee attack. The "range advantage" is simply him closing the distance. From what I've seen so far in-fact, all of Gazef's attacks are melee range.

      So yes, Gazef would begin with a gap closer (which Sixfold Slashes of Light is from what the anime shows at least), which would result in Gazef being slashed and possibly one-shotted, since Bercouli would've one-shotted another 8-C+.

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    • The only advantages Gazef actually have are range, speed, analysis, magic resistance, armor that has a good chance of surviving a blast to the past, a higher likelihood of going for the one-shot, and a resistance to magic, you mean.

      As well, literally the gif on the profile for Sixfold Slashes of Light was clearly at least more than extended melee range.

      3.5x isn’t nearly enough to be one-shotted.

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    • That 3.5x isn't really a 3.5x though, considering Bercouli nearly one-shotted a 8-C+ himself. The difference is definitely more than 3.5x.

      The range isn't that significant because it's still within melee range. Bercouli would simple have to back up and leave his slashes there in-front as Gazef dashes in, which he definitely would have because his "range advantage" isn't that significant.

      Magic resistance doesn't matter because Bercouli doesn't use Sacred Arts much. The armor resisting Bercouli's version of one-shot is debatable. His higher likelihood is negated via Bercouli's experience and AP likely one-shotting Gazef.

      You also said resistance to magic twice.

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    • All I’m seeing is that there has been no counter to the point that Gazef is far more likely to go for the one-shot first, and is faster. Those two reasons are two of the more important among many, many reasons why Gazef wins.

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    • Counter for Gazef going for the one shot is the question of whether he'll even reach Bercouli before he's slashed by an attack that can one shot 8-C+ opponents. We already discussed that Gazef's range is still within melee, and after Bercouli does a slash, all he'll need is to back up a bit and allow Gazef to run into the hit.

      Faster won't matter when Bercouli just needs one or two slices in-front of him to set up a barrier between him and Gazef.

      Gazef needs to see how threatening Bercouli is first before rushing in, which is already enough time for Bercouli to set up a barrier of slashes, and even if Gazef does just immediately bum rush in, then refer to the previous sentence.

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    • "Counter for Gazef going for the one shot is the question of whether he'll even reach Bercouli before he's slashed by an attack that can one shot 8-C+ opponents."

      Isn't the whole point of IC, Gazef would strike first sort of negate this whole argument?

      "We already discussed that Gazef's range is still within melee"

      No? What? We see Brain use the same attack Gazef uses and it travels several yards ahead of normal Melee Range in the post-death Gazef scene.

      " and after Bercouli does a slash, all he'll need is to back up a bit and allow Gazef to run into the hit."

      ... Why would Gazef allow this to happen?

      "Faster won't matter when Bercouli just needs one or two slices in-front of him to set up a barrier between him and Gazef."

      Bercouli won't get in those one or two slices in front of him because Gazef would've already been on the offensive; all he needs to win. Gazef being faster means he straight up swings faster, meaning he has many more chances than Bercouli does.

      "Gazef needs to see how threatening Bercouli is first before rushing in"

      Not really, no. He could use his standard ranged sword slash attack and Bercouli would be dead if he doesn't attempt to dodge.

      " which is already enough time for Bercouli to set up a barrier of slashes"

      Literally the first scene we have of Gazef fighting is him bullrushing Angels, not giving them any opportunities to set up anything or cast spells. Heck he had straight up bloodlust with how he was smacking the Angels with impunity.

      "and even if Gazef does just immediately bum rush in, then refer to the previous sentence."

      Refer to speed advantage and range advantage.

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    • Chad Stronoff FRA

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    • I don't see why we would equalize the rules of Gazef's world. Instant Kills, which is what we are told he resist, are only physical or death magic.

      Bercouli one shots because cutting in the past fucks with the Underworld SystemB, and as a side effect reduces HP to 0. Like a confused poof of logic.

      And again, Bercouli can call upon the Probability Manipulation of Incarnation. Probability Manipulation against an attack that LITERALLY says Gazef can't really guide the slashes doesn't sound like it'll go well for Gazef.

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    • "Corrects the balance of the user, allowing them to attack continuously."

      That's the description of IC. That doesn't prevent Gazef from being hit from dozens of slashes that remain in the area.

      Gazef has also never been shown to have that range for SFSOL.

      Gazef wouldn't know right away about Bercouli's slash that remained there, especially if Bercouli timed to where it looked like he whiffed an attack instead of intentionally slashing. Gazef only sees the weaknesses and probability of success, not the enemy's moveset.

      Would Gazef straight up begin with a stat amp or a regular slash? If I remember correctly from Overlord, you have to call out the name of the magic first before going in. Slashes are faster than words, meaning Bercouli would've already set up at least one or two slashes before Gazef comes in. If Gazef went in for a slash first, then Bercouli would've still gotten a slash or two in because of their distance + speed equalized (before Gazef amps).

      The difference in this battle is that magic in Overlord require casting the name of the spell. A slash is faster than that.

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    • Wouldn't Razor Edge instantly destroy Bercouli's Time Piercing Sword? Beef Stroganoff FRA.

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    • FDrybob's mostly correct.

      Ainz commented that Razor Edge (Gazef's sword) has the same level of enchantment as a weakly enchanted object and that it normally wouldn't be able to leave a scratch on him. Despite this, he says that the sword would be able to bypass his own defenses and actually manage to harm him ("Kill" is a strong word, I doubt it could kill Ainz if he just stood there for an hour). 

      Still, being able to harm someone of Ainz' caliber would mean that Razor Edge would have the capabilities of 1-shotting Bercouli should it land (It would unlike what people above keep trying to say).

      "Would Gazef straight up begin with a stat amp or a regular slash? If I remember correctly from Overlord, you have to call out the name of the magic first before going in. Slashes are faster than words, meaning Bercouli would've already set up at least one or two slashes before Gazef comes in. If Gazef went in for a slash first, then Bercouli would've still gotten a slash or two in because of their distance + speed equalized (before Gazef amps)."

      In Overlord, Martial Arts skills can be shouted whilst you do an action. So mid-swing, Gazef can shout "Full Throttle" and his swing would instantly accelerate. 

      Also Magic =/= Martial Arts, do not make it seem like they're the same thing. Ainz explicitly shows surprise at Martial Arts being that he's a Magic Caster. 

      On another note, Sense Weakness would also be invaluable against an enemy. Since Gazef knows Bercouli is a threat, but both is in-character, Gazef would definitely start with Sense Weakness and Possibility Sense like he did against the big goat demons Ainz summoned. And Gazef would be allowed to do this since Bercouli as we see in his own story, can and will exchange words with the enemy prior to engaging in combat. So will Gazef. They're both honourable warriors.

      Sense Weakness would, obviously, give Gazef a sense of all of Bercouli's weaknesses on hand. Possibility Sense makes him more cautious and more inclined to finish the battle than Bercouli would be. 

      And don't say that Gazef doesn't start with rushing the enemy, he does. Certainly and definitely. Literally every battle. Against the Angels he rushed, against the goat spawn he rushed, against Ainz he rushed, literally every battle he rushed.

      And an extra thing about Flow Acceleration is that Clementine went from being pretty much thwarted by Ainz to surprising him with a blitz of speed. That's a pretty large speed increase and more importantly, a sudden one.

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    • Gazef fra, he's got a massive stamina buff from the amulet he wears, and is liable to survive his opponenets one shot kill move. Ignoring that even if the one shot kills, gazef is far more liable to oneshot before his opponnent as his weapon negates durablitity and requires no special cast

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    • If Akreious voted Gazef, then it's grace.

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    • So someone should add this

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    • Agreed.

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    • May I call not it? I don't trust myself to propely add it. Also you should check out this thread on scorpion vs shalltear! https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3013145

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    • Since this is concluded, I will close it

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