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  • This time I'll do it in shorter pieces, starting with my biggest issues. UwU

    Orgalorg and why he ISN'T low 2-C (and even if he was, why it would not matter)

    Where does the scaleing come from?

    The low 2-C comes from the assumption that Orgalorg managed to absorb the Catalyst Comet. Finn defeated Orgalorg with the grass sword and since Finn defeated Fern (The grass sword x Finn-sword) Finn and some other characters that scale to him are now low 2-C. The comet itself is at low 2-C because it is supposebly able to "merge" with the universe.


    Why is it not useable?

    The main issue is that Orgalorg never managed to propperly absorb the comet. The comet itself was fine afterwards. The reasoning for the comet to be low 2-C is kinda faulty anyways, since it never said "become one" with the beginning and the end, but rather "go to", which doesn't imply anything than maybe teleportation/time travel/very high speeds.


    Why noone would scale from it, even if he was low 2-C.

    Assumeing the comet was low 2-C and Orgalorg managed to absorb it, it can actually be disproven, that it would give him low 2-C durability, since he got crushed by earths gravity after he absorbs the comet.


    Sizes and calculations

    Size and distances of Ooo, planets and even aliens and why they are contradictory.

    The size of Ooo:

    We have many shots of Ooo and how far places are apart. In all of these scenes the distances are fairly consistant and are not contradicted by anything. Quite the opposite, many traveling feats of people just walking some distances make sence with what is shown. We even have a tower, that barely reached above the clouds (not any taller 100km, but more likely just 10-20km) fall over and cover a distance way past of what is currenty assumed to be many hundreds of kilometers. The fact that you can even see and hear people across such distances doesn't help either.

    This heavily effects many moon/continental level calcs, which would only be small city to island level, depending on the size used (10-100km) The picture used to justify this size is contradictory in its self, since the distances between landmarks is as large as it has always been, put the planet is completely unpropotional to it and should not be used.


    Size of Ampersand and Jake expanding:

    Consistancy is key. It has always been shown to be only a couple hundred meters, possibly kilometers in diameter. Just logically speaken, why would Warren choose such a large planet, if he was about to die? He even calls it a "rock" himself. For the sake of argument, lets just go with "bad art direction". The scene still clearly shows foreshortining (since the rocket Warren is in, cant expand, nor would it make any sence if it could/would), so the size of Jakes hand would be far smaller than it is currently assumed to be anyways.


    Nameless Alien and the size of that planet:

    The nameless Alien is behind the "planet" in question. We know the size of said alien from the scene where we see it in the citadell. The citadell is not even close to beeing as large as a planet, so the planet shown cant be as large a regular planet either, since the alien would need to be depicted so small, that we cant/barely even see it, to reasonably assume anything even close to the size of a moon/small planet.


    Calculation and feat issues

    Ice Kings speed feat:

    This feat has litterally 2(!) cuts in between, showing the IK at completely different positions after each cut.


    Ice Kings storm creation:

    We never see him doing anything like this on purpose, nor is it likely that his ice has comparable AP/Durability anyways, since non of his attacks seemed to have any such effect. He also didnt do it by himself, so he should only get half the credit.


    The crown freezing the world:

    The biggest issue here is the assumed temperature. At a certain temperature all water within the air starts to instantly freeze. The temperature would be way higher than what is assumed, since the earth was covered in ice, not frozen air. Besides that, if everyone and everything got frozen solid like this, why does Marceline (who should have been also frozen) know that the entire earth got frozen? Seeing it in the flashback doesnt help much either, since we had many flashbacks in AT that show things how people remember/imagin them, rather than how they happened.


    Lemongrabs sound sword:

    This is mostly fine and checks out with things like Finn almost beeing as fast as the sunrise (over 470m/s) in season 7 (so fairly late into the show)

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    • Yeah, pretty strait forward

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    • The first part, yes. Very straight forward. The second part, not so much. The argument of "just bad art" was used alot to "disprove" me on the size ones. Even though I think that especially in that case not only the most consistant, but preferably also the lower end should be chosen, if there is nothing contradicting it (and in most cases there is nothing to contradict it)

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    • Looks good to me.

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    • I guess I'll have to invite Darkanine again...hoorraay! (he must be annoyed of me too, buy this point haha)

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    • >Low 2-C Orgalorg stuff

      Agree. For reasons I stated in the previous thread.

      >Warren Ampersand / Jake's shapeshifting stuff

      I can agree with the celestial body they were in being small, but I still don't see any particular reason for Warren and Jake's own shapeshifting abilities to be so inferior to Charlie's, especially considering that Warren is far more malleable and skilled in shapeshifting than Jake and his kin ever showed to be (presumably due to being a "pure" Shapeshifter, while Jake and his kids are just hybrids). Nevertheless, Jake should still at least partially scale to his dad, since Warren returned to his Prime by absorbing Jake's own powers in the first place.

      The Lich and Orgalorg should definitely scale to that, considering Jake struggled to restrain the Lich inside of him even with his Shapeshifting, and is overall portrayed as not being that much of a big deal compared to beings such as him and Orgalorg.

      >Ice King's speed feat

      Can you elaborate on that? The Ice King is pretty clearly flying into space in that scene.

      >Ice King's Storm

      We already saw the Ice King conjuring things such as storms and powerful winds numerous times throughout the series, it is not a stretch to say he was responsible for the Storm, especially when it was formed before him and Flame Princess even started attacking each other and actually using their powers.

      >Nameless Alien stuff

      The Planet which was cut apart in that scene pretty clearly had a fully-developed mantle and a core, if we go by the Alien's size as shown in the background of Escape from the Citadel, then it is barely bigger than a Human. So, yeah, I don't think this argument is valid. Trying to dismiss the appearance of a core within it as an "artistic error" is also a pretty bad argument and is basically accusing the writers / artists of being complete idiots - It is far more reasonable to say that the Alien's size was drawn inconsistently.

      There is also the fact that, this flashback is shown in a scene where Prismo is talking about how the Citadel is a place for the worst kind of criminals in existence. As in, people who committed crimes of a cosmic scale and had to be imprisoned for eternity in some isolated corner of space. So yeah, I am fairly sure that this is supposed to be an actual planet based on the overall context of the scene, especially if we go by Occam's Razor.

      >Stuff implying Finn being as fast as the sunrise means he can't possible be beyond Subsonic

      Movement and Travel Speed =/= Combat and Reaction Speed.

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    • I am on my phone right now, so I'll make this short (I'll give a better answer tomorrow)

      When it comes to the IKs feat its just like I said. It has 2 cutscenes depicting him at vastly different positions (Time passed during those cutscenes).

      The stuff Finn scales to (the things that give him MHS+ and the like) are all and without exception travel speed. If you can give me FTL reaction speeds, fine. But this does disprove all the other things he scales to.

      I do have things to say about the other stuff too, but I have not only been told to not write any walls of text, but I am also tired and writing on my phone suxs lol.

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    • https://youtu.be/gQzlmM59gpw

      It shows Simon carrying Party God out of the atmosphere then it cuts to him tossing him into space there being a scene cut /=/ massive time went by as its playing in real time in the same scene and there’s also no good reason to assume he just magically teleported there with no proof

      Using this logic about 90% of speed feats wouldn’t be valid

      Edit: in fact watching the scene again it pretty clearly shows Ice King going out of the atmosphere then to space extremely quickly it’s pretty blatantly emphasizing speed here.

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    • And adding on to what Ultima said Ice King has created massive storms several times in the series before via his magic ( obvious example Holly Jolly Secrets) https://youtu.be/tE8Fy4gQpNE 0:56

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    • Isn't Orgalrorg also Low 2-C for existing before the darkness before creation?

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    • This will be a BIT long, but I will try to make it as short as possible rather than one of my usual giant walls of text, lol. Here goes:

      I just spotted ANOTHER, equally big issue with the use of scaling from the Comet for Orgalorg: The Comet's own Low 2-C tier does not match its durability! I mean: Orgalorg captured and pierced the comet with his tentacles while Orgalorg itself was still only Tier 5. So the Comet's durability is NOT Low 2-C, regardless of its reality-warping. So even if Orgalorg did absorb a non-negligible amount of the Comet's power, we have no reason to believe that this increased Orgalorg's durability above Tier 5, since the Comet itself isn't that durable! So Finn/Grass Arm's feat of defeating Orgalorg can't be above Tier 5.

      I do still think that the Nameless Alien's feat seems to be Tier 5. The planet had a crust, mantle, outer core, and inner core. In order for a planet to have that level of inner complexity, it has to be of a certain size, at the very least moon-sized. So Darkanine's Tier 5 calc is likely valid, or at the very least a new lowballed calc which assumes the planet is moon-sized. If we assume the planet is moon-sized and calc it, I am guessing the destroyed material will come to High 6-A and the K-E calc will come to Low 5-B or 5-B. Perhaps we can ask Darkanine or someone else if they could redo the calc with a lowball where the planet is moon-sized, and an Earth-sized highball.

      I highly suspect that the scaling of the alien to the planet in that scene was so "off" simply due to the writers and artists not knowing a damn thing about math, lol. There's also the possibility that the Citadel Guardians have the ability to shrink prisoners to catch them! That seems highly likely, since they would need a way to catch prisoners far larger than themselves!

      Also, let's not forget that Orgalorg is called "The Breaker of Worlds," and I highly doubt he would be called that unless he could literally, well. . . .break worlds, i.e. is Tier 5.

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    • We may need Darkanine here.

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    • Sir Ovens wrote:
      We may need Darkanine here.

      Not necessarily; Pretty much anybody could re-do Darkanine's calc as a lowball assuming the planet was only moon-sized like I said in my post above, simply by scaling-down all the relevant portions of his original calc. That would be super easy to do for pretty much anyone with experience doing calcs on here. That being said, his input would still be appreciated, since it is his calc that I am proposing be redone with new lowball and highball versions, although the highball will simply being his original calc left unchanged.

      I do want to re-emphasize, while I get the chance, the fact that Orgalorg is called "the Breaker of Worlds." Seems pretty clear that we are talking about a Tier 5 character when they have an epithet like that. Also, didn't Orgalorg himself once say that he can destroy worlds?

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    • He said that due to the comics, everyone should be 2-A anyway.

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    • Sir Ovens wrote:
      He said that due to the comics, everyone should be 2-A anyway.

      Um. . . .none of the A.T. comics (with the exception of the Stakes miniseries prequel-comic) are canon to the series, though, as neither Ward nor Muto had anything to do with them whatsoever, and they themselves have said multiple times that all the comics are non-canon. So that makes literally zero or negative amounts of sense, lol. And the idea of Infinite-Multiversal Finn is just. . . .lmao, I don't even know where to begin on how silly that is. Are you SURE that's what he said, that he said Tier 2-A and not something like 2-C?

      Let's try not to post much more here for now if it isn't really contributing anything new, as I want to see what people think of my long-ish post (four posts above this one, in case people are wondering), and I don't want it to disappear in a sea of later posts (unless those posts are contributing something new and worthwhile to the discussion, of course) before people get a chance to look at it. Lol.

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    • @Ultima Reality

      Thank you for helping out. Do you have suggestions for how we should rescale the Adventure Time profiles?

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    • Oof, so many coments to talk about. Not ganna make a wall of text though (insert shaq meme)

      @Js If The feat is calced with supposebly 100km traveled and we see like what, 5? Maybe 10? Then no, this is a feat that should not be used, especially if there is nothing to support the idea that he can travel at those speeds. In the first shot he is a couple tens of meters above the ground, in the next a couple of 10s of kilometers and in the last 100 are assumed. The gap between the scenes is way to massive to justify that feat.

      Just think about what that would mean in general. Whenerver a character moved from A to B with a cutscene, theyd be MFTL+. I highly doubt that thats what 90% of the feats here are like

      Edit: Meant to say cuts, not cutscenes lol

      Him creating that "storm" is great and all, but can he put that into any sort of AP? His strongest attack he ever used was that against FP and it only sen them flying for a couple hundred of meters and the explosion did next to nothing.

      @Ultima About Ampersand. That still ignores the foreshortining issue. We also dont know how much of the planet/how thin Warren covered it. All of Jakes kids are very different to Jake in most ways, actuall. Wether it might be teleportation, portal opening or moving as lightning. Charlie is no exception. Her ability doesnt even seem to be "stretchy", but something else entirely (she gets see through afterall).

      The storm litterally moves in above both of their heads in equal amounts, not just the IKs. This implies that its because of both. Also, why would the IK create a storm in the first place? There is no reason.

      I already told Goody what I think about the nameless alien thing and why the value itsself does not matter at all (I'll copy that over later). You also dont need to be a planet buster to commit a cosmic crime. That was made fairly clear too.

      @Goody The only thing I still need to tell you (I atleast think I covered everything else), is the title issue for Orgalorg. He has no feats, nor resonable scaleing. He was completely beaten by someone who wasnt able to take the impact of what he had mistaken with the catalyst comet. The meteor that killed the dinosaurs. Since its supposed to be a similar event in AT, I'll just go with the real (estimated) values for said meteor. By the wikis AP chart, that would barely be High 6-A (100trillion tons of tnt). Even if he did destroy a planet, then how long did it take/did he do it in one go? Why isnt he in the citadell the?

      Also, the comics have a weird 5D rope feat. I dont think they should get 2-A because of that regardless though.



      Oof, that was alot. Still didnt write a wall of text thogh

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    • This is what I replied to Goody about the Alien:

      That might be so, but the even bigger issue is that noone would scale to it (and its still weird). It is used to make the citadel Guardians tier 5, by saying that they must have fought the alien head on and tanked that exact blast, but they got completely hammered by a train. Then they scaled the Guardians to the Lich, even though they never actually fought. The Lich just didnt give a sh*t about them and the Guardians were busy fighting of the freed criminals. So wether its planetary or not has no/should not have any influence on any other characters.

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    • @Clueless

      The difference between Jake and his kids is that they are Rainicorn hybrids, but they still get Shapeshifting abilities from him (As seen with Charlie herself). Do you have any actual reason for Ampersand and Jake to be orders of magnitude weaker than Charlie in this regard? Especially since Ampersand is a "Pure" Shapeshifter, like I said, and is far more malleable than Jake ever was.

      Him creating that "storm" is great and all, but can he put that into any sort of AP? His strongest attack he ever used was that against FP and it only sen them flying for a couple hundred of meters and the explosion did next to nothing.

      By that same logic Ice King and Flame Princess can't be anything higher than Tier 8, since the explosion caused by their combined powers wasn't as big as one a nuke would create, when that's contradicted by Flame Princess' actual feat of triggering the massive eruption of a volcano which was calced as comparable to the Tsar Bomba, or a Nameless Fire Elemental doing a similar feat with no effort whatsoever.

      "Its weird" isn't an actual argument, it is as valid as saying Finn and co. can't be Tier 5 because it "doesn't feel right" or "seems ridiculous". Arguments from incredulity are worthless unless backed up by some concise reasoning, like I said.

      Starchie's train didn't even damage the Citadel Guardian it crashed on, just pushed it back. Even then it makes no sense for a train that small to do anything to something as large as the Citadel Guardians, it's an outlier.

      Yeah, you don't need to destroy a Planet to commit a cosmic crime, I am just saying that the overall context of the scene makes it pretty obvious we are supposed to be seeing an actual planet here.

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    • @RatherClueless

      Good point about how the Guardians probably didn't directly fight the Nameless Alien, they most likely caught it off guard and used their freezing-hax on it. That being said, I am almost positive that the Citadel Guardian being knocked-out by a train was a massive low-level outlier, man. I mean come on, we know for a fact that no matter what, the high-tiers in this series have to be AT LEAST something like Small City Level+ based on Flame Queen's eruption. And there is no way the Guardians, the cops of the ultimate cosmic court-system, are SO much weaker than Flame Queen that they themselves are Building Level when she is City Level.

      Good point about Glob getting taken out by something which was equivalent to the Lich-meteor or to the last catalyst comet that is implied to be what took a giant chunk out of the planet, and thus probably not being above Tier 6. I'm positive Martin's ship WAS 6-A or High 6-A, since it was implied that it would cause devastating damage to the entire surface of Mars if it hadn't been stopped. Glob 'didn't 'die from it, though, so based on that, we can probably say that Glob and Orgalorg are 6-A or High 6-A. Being tier 6-A or High 6-A WOULD justify the title of "Breaker of Worlds."

      I agree that you don't need to be a planet-buster to commit a Cosmic Crime, but it's also certainly true that just plain KILLING a city's-worth of people isn't enough to be a Cosmic Crime, or plenty of humans in the modern era (which is canonically the past of the A.T. world) would have been captured by Citadel Guardians. The aliens that committed a cosmic crime without planet-busting did some...weird things that seem inexplicable by human standards. I'm pretty sure that if it's just a straight act of genocide/killing, you've gotta kill off a whole planetary population to be a "cosmic criminal."

      Well obviously the 5-D rope-feat in the comics shouldn't count because: 1. It was an outlier and 2. The comics are non-canon, lol.

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    • I am pretty sure the Season 11 Comics and The Beginning of the End are actually supposed to be canon to the show tho.

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    • Ultima Reality wrote:
      I am pretty sure the Season 11 Comics and The Beginning of the End are actually supposed to be canon to the show tho.

      The Season 11 comics are non-canon, Adam Muto has said so, he said that no one from the actual show is involved in the Season 11 comic and thus it cannot be considered a true Season 11, and the actual end of the canon series was indeed the final episode, Come Along With Me. He has stated multiple times that none of the comics besides the Stakes Prequel are canon. Although I think those statements may have been before the Beginning of the End comic, so I'm not really sure about the canon-status of that one, now that I think about it.

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    • Alright, we are getting closer to common ground, niceu!

      @Ultima You said it yourself, they are also partially rainacorn, makeing their abilities, well, different. Completely ignoring the fact that we only see it happening once and that it seems vastly diferent to anything Jake or Warren ever did (She increased in size and got see through, possibly even intagible, while Jake and Warren can shape and stretch how ever they want, but cant get see through/lower their density), since planets and the like are always drawn in very weird ways (and I dont just feel like they are lol), her size might actually be off too, but I feel like that would be reaching.

      Also, accuseing me of arguing with"feelings", but basically saying I "feel" like Warren should be stronger. I mean, Gohan is only half Sayan and has more potential than Goku. I know its a diferent verse, but the same reasoning.

      The train was mostly meant to show how weird it is to assume the Guardian tanked a planetary blast, but got knocked over by a train. Even if we consider it an outlier, its still funny af haha.

      I am also fairly certain the comics are non canon, but even if they were, they would need to get an extra key, prefferably specifying that its the comics. Is that the reason why Finn has a season 11 key? If so it should be specified. I dont actually mind comic keys, but they should be treated like the MCU is. Different canon, different keys. (I feel like I stated my point way to often in this haha)

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    • You said it yourself, they are also partially rainacorn, makeing their abilities, well, different. Completely ignoring the fact that we only see it happening once and that it seems vastly diferent to anything Jake or Warren ever did (She increased in size and got see through, possibly even intagible, while Jake and Warren can shape and stretch how ever they want, but cant get see through/lower their density).

      Like I said, they are Rainicorn Hybrids but they get Shapeshifting abilities from Jake himself, Charlie likely became intangible after growing to planetary size so she wouldn't devastate everything on her way.

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    • or maybe thats just how her ability works I find Charlie very iffy in general, but alright. I also edited my comment just before you answered, so you might have missed something.

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    • Also, accuseing me of arguing with"feelings", but basically saying I "feel" like Warren should have the better ability. I mean, Gohan is only half Sayan and has more potential than Goku. I know its a diferent verse, but the same reasoning.

      Well, sorry if I came off as aggressive or condescending, but what I said is not wrong. Arguments which are based on incredulity are not at all valid in a discussion, again unless they are backed up by some concise reasoning, hence things like "Finn shouldn't be 5-B because it feels weird and crazy" are basically worthless by themselves.

      That's a huge false equivalency. Saiyan-Human Hybrids are pretty blatantly said and shown to have more potential than pure-blooded Saiyans throughout most of Dragon Ball Z, meanwhile nothing of the sort is even remotely implied in Adventure Time, and if anything is actually contradicted.

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    • 1. I never made a statement saying "its weird and thats why we shouldnt use it" without giving any facts at some point.

      2. Are they said to be stronger? Guess I gotta re-read lol.

      3. Rainacorns (even pure blooded ones) differ in things like abilities. Some of Jakes kids have some sweet abilities, like "hair controll" or whatever Charlie does (I feel very uncomftable calling it "stretch powers" lol) and some of them just have standart rainacorn stuff, like teleportation. One of those that didnt get anything "special" is Kim Kil Whan, his daughter however has an ability noone else has shown up to that point, namely turning into lightning. The fact that she is only 1/4th rainacorn or even just 1/8th alien did not matter.

      4. What contradicts that rainacorn x alien can give "better" results than just alien?

      5. Even if we assumed that Warren can do the same, that would mean that his density would be lower just like it was with Charlie, giving far lower results, since the mass didnt increase, which is what the calc is based on.

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    • What contradicts that rainacorn x alien can give "better" results than just alien?

      The fact Jake's (who himself is a Shapeshifter hybrid) shapeshifting is clearly shown to be worse and far less versatile than Warren's multiple times, there is no reason to assume Charlie is better at it for the sole fact she has Rainicorn genes, and if anything, you are the one who should be trying to prove this. Burden of Proof and all.

      Even if we assumed that Warren can do the same, that would mean that his density would be lower just like it was with Charlie, giving far lower results, since the mass didnt increase, which is what the calc is based on.

      Are you talking about how Charlie became transparent after growing in size? Pretty sure that would be just Intangibility, something Rainicorns have shown.

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    • I am not saying that she is better than him, quite the opposite. I am actually saying that she is most likely limited to changeing in size, without any funky shape shifting. Actually, I'd go even further and say: It's nothing like what Jake and Warren can do and a different ability all together.

      About the burden of proof. You claim they scale, dont you need to proof things? I kinda summarized the "weirdness" (yes, I really like that word) of rainacorn abilities in my third point anyways and why its possible to get "something new from nothing", so its not like I didnt try to prove anything.

      Nah. Thats not what I meant. The larger she grew, the more transparent she got. This indicates that there is a connection between those two, rather than her just useing a seperate ability.

      Even if we assume Jake and Warren sclae, wouldnt that still be an outlier since its hundreds of times greater than anything either of those two did?

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    • Charlie phases though the bathroom wall in the same episode with her feat safe to say it’s intangibility.

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    • that looked like a completely different abilty

      AT charlie
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    • About the burden of proof. You claim they scale, dont you need to proof things? I kinda summarized the "weirdness" (yes, I really like that word) of rainacorn abilities in my third point anyways and why its possible to get "something new from nothing", so its not like I didnt try to prove anything.

      I already presented my arguments for Warren and Jake scaling to her in this very same Thread, meanwhile as far as I know there is no actual proof that Rainicorn-Shapeshifter Alien hybrids would somehow be "better" than pure Shapeshifters at changing in size (Assuming Charlie doing that is an indication of her inheriting Jake's powers to some extent), or that Charlie's feat is a product of some ability that is completely unrelated to Jake's Shapeshifting, other than conjecture.

      Nah. Thats not what I meant. The larger she grew, the more transparent she got. This indicates that there is a connection between those two, rather than her just useing a seperate ability.

      Considering that we actually do see her growing in size normally before going transparent, I am not sure on there being a connection between these two things.

      Even if we assume Jake and Warren sclae, wouldnt that still be an outlier since its hundreds of times greater than anything either of those two did?

      Jake casually grew to be nearly as large as Mountains and such even very early in the series, and only ever exerts himself by spreading his body across extremely thin lengths. Him scaling to Charlie's feat being an outlier would imply that it is contradicted by lower, more consistent feats related to his Shapeshifting, when it really isn't (As far as I remember anyways).

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    • Well, the best thing Jake ever did was to get as large as a small mountain (maybe 100ish meters), actually and it was only once somewhere in the middle of the show.

      Jake doesnt exert himself when growing thin, but he grew thin because he exerted himself, basically being the other way around.  When just stretching straight he can barely get to maybe a couple of tens of kilometers (that truly was in the beginning of the show though).

      For your argument that being a "true shape shifter" grants the ability to grow larger, because Jake is shittier at stretching than him:

      Jake is lazy and maybe he just suxs at it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1ZxtD3MEA0 1:10

      We actually see him creating a miniture country within himself, with the "people" inhabiting it having a mind of their own. Skillwise thats way better than anything Warren ever did.

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    • Can't really bother with this nowadays with school around, though regarding beginning of the end, it was supposed to be canon to the 11th Season but both were cancelled before the Chrono Rex arc could progress

      Regarding its canonicity, all of Adam's statements regarding comics' being canon basically say that they aren't canon to the main continuity of Adventure Time, i.e the universe where the show takes place, and rather they take place in parallel universes, so Rex's canonicity is pretty much set in stone if that's what was said earlier.

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    • Pretty sure it would anchor the 11th season somehow but well

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    • the question was wether its canon to the TV show or not

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    • Not sure, it kind of contradicts the last episode of the show

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    • @RatherClueless

      Glad you agree the train taking out a Guardian was likely an outlier. But just like you said, that doesn't make it any less hilarious, it was a funny scene XD

      About the Charlie feat: I am kind of up in the air on that one. Thing is, that her mass definitely DID increase to a very large degree when she became planetary-sized; if you recall, when she walked across the earth, there were very audible giant "thump, thump, thump" noises from her footsteps, indicating that indeed, her mass was humongous. Her density couldn't have been TOO low, or else she would have floated off into space rather than staying subject to the Earth's gravity. So it's pretty clear that she did increase in mass, and her turning transparent was intangibility, since she also demonstrated intangibility/phasing through a door while normal-sized. HOWEVER, that being said: I, like you, highly doubt that her mass actually became planetary in scale. That seems pretty insane to me, and we have no actual PROOF that her mass increased quite as much as her volume did. The only requirement for the feat, density-wise, is that her mass was enough for her to stay subject to gravity, while also being enough for her footsteps to make sounds audible around the world.  She could have been only as dense as like, light styrofoam, and still fulfilled those conditions. Also, she had no noticable gravitational effect on her surroundings, so how could her mass have been planetary?

      @Emperoer but butter

      I may be remembering incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure that Muto said something along the lines of how the comics "might" be a parellel universe. He never made it too definitive. I don't think his statements were enough for us to possibly consider anything from the comics to be canon to the A.T. multiverse. Even if the comics somehow ARE canon to the multiverse, that doesn't mean that we can assume the main-timeline versions of the characters scale to feats from the comics.

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    • Pretty sure it was in sense that they are definitive, can't say for sure

      No one's is bringing that up from all I'm seeing

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    • @Goody Glad we are on a similar page. Would you mind also telling me what you think about it beeing "implausibe" that Charlie can grow larger than Jake or Warren/ that she has a different ability/ that she uses it in a completely different way, since I belive that is kinda the biggest issue here

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      @Goody Glad we are on a similar page. Would you mind also telling me what you think about it beeing "implausibe" that Charlie can grow larger than Jake or Warren/ that she has a different ability/ that she uses it in a completely different way, since I belive that is kinda the biggest issue here

      I don't see how it's implausible that she can grow larger than them. There is a real phenomenon in genetics called "hybrid vigor," where a cross-breed between two individuals with vastly different genetics will result in a hybrid with better, stronger traits than either parent. This is the reason why mutts tend to be healthier than purebred dogs. Based on that, it seems extremely plausible to me that a Rainicorn/Dog/Shapeshifter hybrid would have more potential than just a Dog/Shapeshifter hybrid or a Shapeshifter on its own. It is like the situation with Saiyan/Human hybrids. Hybrid vigor could especially apply to a situation like this one, since Shapeshifter abilities are biological (not magical) in nature, while Rainicorn abilities are magical in nature. So the hybrid of these very different species could result in a magical/biological hybrid-superpower potentially superior to the powers of either parent.

      Here's the Wikipedia page on the phenomenon of hybrid vigor, aka "heterosis": Heterosis on Wikipedia

      I myself always just assumed that this real-world phenomenon is precisely the reason why Saiyan/Human hybrids in DB have so much potential. Well, that and the fact that Saiyan evolution is clearly Lamarckian in nature, meaning that strengths which a parent obtains through training end up somehow being genetically passed down to offspring. Hybrid vigor tends to occur most commonly when one or both parent species don't have much genetic diversity, and are possibly somewhat inbred. That seems to be the case with Saiyans, as the species overall seems to have far less genetic/ethnic diversity than humans, and have quite possibly become inbred in the past due to selective breeding for strength. Thus, breeding with humans could have introduced a level of genetic diversity into the Saiyan genome that hasn't been seen in many generations. Only bringing this up of course because you guys were discussing saiyan/human hybrids, lol.

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    • alright thx

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      alright thx

      You're welcome, glad I was able to help with that thanks to being such a nerd who knows so much scientific trivia XD Lmao

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    • well, I asked Darkanaine if he wanted to talk about this too, a couple of days ago, but I guess he got sick of me didnt see it or doesnt care anymore. This is good and bad news. Bad news, because he is kinda the authority on most of these things. Good news, because everytime he comments my very first thought is this

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      well, I asked Darkanaine if he wanted to talk about this too, a couple of days ago, but I guess he got sick of me didnt see it or doesnt care anymore. This is good and bad news. Bad news, because he is kinda the authority on most of these things. Good news, because everytime he comments my very first thought is this

      LMAO, that's hilarious man.

      Ya know, just to expand a tiny bit on what I said about the phenomenon of hybrid vigor:

      It's interesting to note that hybrid-vigor is a very good example of the phenomenon of "truth in fiction." There are MANY examples of fictional "hybrid" characters who are more powerful or have more potential than either parent. Besides the Pups from A.T. and the Saiyan/Human hybrids from DB, another very good example is the character Raven from DC Comics and the Teen Titans cartoon series: She is the daughter of an incredibly evil God-Tier (At Least Large Planet Tier in the show, and Multi-Universe Tier in the Post-Crisis comics) interdimensional demon named Trigon, and a weak-ass ordinary human mother. And yet, at her absolute peak under the right conditions, her powers actually SURPASS those of her father Trigon.

      There are MANY examples in fiction of "hybrids" who surpass either of their parents in power, versatility, hax, etc. And in this particular case, the trope in question actually has a basis in real-life genetics. Pretty neat, right?

      Okay, now to get back on topic and only talk about A.T. power-scaling, lmao.

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    • Glad to have someone who can put my thoughts/gibberish into actual words haha. Its quite different to argue in a foreign language, even if you have lived in the US for an entire year xD

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    • Goodyfresh wrote:

      Okay, now to get back on topic and only talk about A.T. power-scaling, lmao.

      Any point of this CRT in particular? Just choose one we didnt really talk about/didnt come to a conclusion/you disagree with (or for all I care one you agree with and why)

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    • @Ultima

      So what are your conclusions about the current statistics? Should they be changed from tier 2 to tier 5?

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    • Me, Ultima and Goody agree that the low 2-C doesnt make any sence and shouldnt have been applied in the first place. The Tier 5 rateings themelf, in many cases atleast, are things that are still debated/open for debate. Thats atleast how I interpret the current situation. No clue about Js' stands on almost anything though.

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    • Okay.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Me, Ultima and Goody agree that the low 2-C doesnt make any sence and shouldnt have been applied in the first place. The Tier 5 rateings themelf, in many cases atleast, are things that are still debated/open for debate. Thats atleast how I interpret the current situation. No clue about Js' stands on almost anything though.

      I second everything here, Antvasima, RatherClueless is interpreting the situation correctly at least when it comes to my opinions. Every AT character who is currently Tier 2, with the obvious exceptoin of cosmic entities like Prismo and Golb who are undisputedly Tier 2, should at the very least be downgraded to Tier 5.

      In terms of the characters to be downgraded, RatherClueless, let's make sure not to forget Hunson Abadeer among them, as for some reason he is currently Low 2-C on here.

      Tier 5 is still very debatable, so I agree with that statement as well. I think that at the very least, the top-tiers are High 6-A, due to Martin's ship not killing Glob while also scaling (via statements of it having K-E comparable to a Catalyst Comet) to the Lich-meteor and to the Catalyst Comet which is implied to be the reason why a big chunk is missing from the planet. These characters being at least High 6-A is also consistent with Orgalorg being called "The Breaker of Worlds." But whether they are actually Tier 5 or not is still super-duper debatable.

      To make my opinion more clear: The only rating I am currently 100% comfortable with giving to the top-tiers is High 6-A.

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    • Isn't that piece of the planet missing because of the mushroom bomb? Did I misunderstand that this entire time? Oof!

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    • It was from the bomb yes

      The only one might scale to the explosion is Patience St Pim because she created an ice barrier that tanked the explosion while he powers were limited ( and by proxy anyone that scales to her)

      Unless Lich being a previous incarnation of the comet counts and he originated from the bomb but that’s not really scale worthy reasons.

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    • Goodyfresh
      Goodyfresh removed this reply because:
      Blah
      21:45, May 14, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • About Abadeer. He is just one of many victims of weird scaleing. Once we are done with this the truly painfull part will beginn. If you want a taste of it, just look at Finn's profile and some of the things he scales to. One of them is something like: "low 2-C dura, scales to Flame Queen", while FP doesn't even have a low 2-C key

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    • No, the mushroom bomb did not take that giant chunk out of the planet, as we saw the immediate aftermath of the bomb going off in Farmworld Reality and all it did to the planet's surface was create a giant lake of toxic magical mutagenic green goo. It did not visibly annihilate any kind of huge portion of the landscape around it, let alone something as big as the chunk that we see missing from the planet in the present day.

      Most fans who have analyzed this matter are of the consensus that it was the last Catalyst Comet 1000 years ago that took the chunk out of the planet. In various shots from the time of the Mushroom War, it was seen that there was a comet (I believe it was a blue one, which means it MIGHT have been the same comet that was later reincarnated as a butterfly, a weird alien blob, Shoko, and Finn) heading towards the planet at that time, which most likely impacted very shortly after the time when the Mushroom Bomb went off. However, we do not have any definitive prove of this, of course. What we do know is that Ice King/Simon had a drawing of an intact Earth with a giant comet heading towards it.

      Edit: On the other hand, there have also been contradictory indications in the show that the crater was caused by something during the Mushroom War. The Founders' Song seemed to imply this, for example. It is possible, however, that the decendants of humans merely BELIEVED the Mushroom War to be responsible for the crater. As I said, we got to see the actual effects of the Mushroom Bomb in the Farmworld Reality, and it didn't do anything that drastic to the Earth's surface.

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    • Patience was shown to be very far away from the blast, so scaleing that might be iffy. If we were to scale the Lich to the bomb, we would need to scale Finn to a butterfly, so I highly doubt that works haha.

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    • Tbf in Farmworld the Mushroom Bomb was frozen for 1000 years and detonated extremely late unlike the main timeline that’s likely the explanation for the blast being significantly weaker

      And correct me if I’m wrong but I thought most things in the show point to the mushroom war for the crater which was started by the bomb

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Patience was shown to be very far away from the blast, so scaleing that might be iffy.

      If we were to scale the Lich to the bomb, we would need to scale Finn to a butterfly, so I highly doubt that works haha.

      See my post above. The Mushroom Bomb is most definitely not what caushed the giant chunk missing from the Earth, as it didn't do anything like that to the Earth when it went off in the Farmworld Reality. The only explanation for the giant crater that seems truly likely, is that it was caused by the last Catalyst Comet. Because none of the weapons used in the Mushroom War besides the Mushroom Bomb would have had the power to do something that major to the planet, since they would have been comparable to the nuclear weapons possessed by modern humans. While it is true that the Founders' Song implies that the Mushroom War caused the damage to the Earth, it has also been 1000 years since then and it is highly likely that their account of history has been distorted. Since it seems that the last Catalyst Comet impacted at RIGHT AROUND THE SAME TIME as the end of the Mushroom War, it makes sense that the survivors of humanity would have mis-attributed the giant crater to the Mushroom Bomb rather than to its true cause, the Comet.

      Edit: I suppose this is debatable. But I see no reason to think that the bomb was "weakened" in the Farmworld Reality as a result of being frozen. Ice King's freezing has been shown multiple times to basically work as suspended-animation/stasis, keeping things frozen in a completely static and unchanging state.

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    • @Goody So you are saying: who knows how it got there, it at least wasn't the bomb. Is that about right?

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      @Goody So you are saying: who knows how it got there, it at least wasn't the bomb. Is that about right?

      Pretty much, yeah. It is likely that the survivors of humanity simply mis-attributed the cause of the crater to the Mushroom War/Bomb, because they weren't aware of the existence of Catalyst Comets and thus the only thing they could think of that could have caused the crater would be the War. Also, the last comet impacted right around the time of the end of the War, so if the Comet was in fact what caused the crater, then that would explain the survivors of humanity mis-attributing the cause. If a giant chunk appeared missing from the Earth at almost exactly the same time as that a horrific mutagenic bomb went off that mutated the world, the natural reaction of most of humanity would be to mistakenly think "I bet it was the bomb that made that crater." Thus, the Founders' song attributing the damage to Earth to the Mushroom War.

      @JS250476 The reason most things in the show point to the crater being caused by the war/bomb, is because the crater appeared around the same time the bomb went off. That's my point here. That doesn't mean it was the bomb that caused the crater though, it simply means that people THINK the bomb is what caused the crater. Keep in mind that we know for a fact that the last Comet impacted at almost exactly the same time as the end of the war. Again, when the bomb went off in Farmworld, it had almost no noticable effect on the landscape. The only effect on the landscape was the creation of a lake of toxic goo.

      Further evidence: The Lich's Lair, in the main timeline/reality, is known with 100% certainty to be ground-zero where the bomb went off. THIS IS NOT THE LOCATION OF THE CRATER. The giant crater is not even in/around the continent/island of Ooo. If it was in fact the bomb that caused the crater, then how could the crater be so far away from the Lich's lair, which was ground-zero for the bomb?

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    • Well, I doubt the crater comes from the comet though. If one impact was that massive, how is earth still there if it gets hit by one of those every 1000 years!? Do the comets always hit the same spot, making it deeper and deeper?

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    • To comment real quick Darkanine has been less active in general here but it’s most likely cause he’s busy/can’t comment atm he’s not the type of guy to intentionally ignore something as important as this for a series he knows very well

      I’m sure he’ll be here eventually we just gotta be patient

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    • Alright I can wait. Wasn't planning on making any changes without him commenting anyways (I would have told him, if we were about to change the profiles)

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    • About the Catalyst Comet there supposed to be some cosmic bringers of great change to the world but that change isn’t necessarily always about destruction for example the Lich comet was heavily Implied to be the meteor which wiped out the dinosaurs but Finns blue comet likely just brought an unknown change that brought what would eventually become Finn ( remember the comet itself says it’s embodied all that is good and evil.)

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Well, I doubt the crater comes from the comet though. If one impact was that massive, how is earth still there if it gets hit by one of those every 1000 years!? Do the comets always hit the same spot, making it deeper and deeper?

      Well, the Catalyst comet is different every time. It had a cataclysmic effect on the Earth when the Lich-comet hit 65 million years ago. Other times, it has had a non-cataclysmic effect. Clearly, the effects of each comet are different from the effects of the previous comets. This is due to the Comets' nature as "bringers of change," of course their effects would be different each and every time.

      My suspicion is this: The Catalyst Comet of 1000 years ago impacted very shortly after the Mushroom Bomb went off. Most likely, the Catalyst Comet had a cataclysmic effect on the Earth's surface because it was "necessary" to offset some aspect or portion of the War/Bomb's effects, in a way that will never be made clear or explained to us.

      Bottom line is, we know where ground-zero was for the Bomb Explosion: The Lich's Lair. The place where Farmworld Marcy was at with the frozen bomb in that timeline, was clearly the same abandoned subway-station as the Lich's Lair. And the Lich's Lair, in the main timeline, is nowhere near the location of the giant crater, as the giant crater isn't even anywhere close to the Land of Ooo. The bomb could not possibly have been the cause of the crater, because if it was, the entire Land of Ooo would be inside the crater as a result of being the continent where the Lich's Lair is located.

      By the way, I laughed my ass off when you mentioned that scaling Lich to a comet would be like scaling Finn to a butterfly. Don't go underestimating butterflies, man! Butterflies were Finn's astral-beast, remember? He summoned them one time and they beat up Ice King for him. Lmao.

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    • Shouldn't they have similar impact values though? They appear to be very similar in size, speed, etc. If not, my argument with Glob and the spaceship doesn't even really work anymore.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Shouldn't they have similar impact values though? They appear to be very similar in size, speed, etc.

      Maaaan, the Comets are magical reality-warping bringers-of-change of a tier of up to Low 2-C, capable of merging themselves and others with all of spacetime and reality. I'm pretty sure it's pointless to try to apply our petty human logic regarding kinetic-energy values to something like that, lmao. We know for a fact from what we saw of the Purple Comet, that the comets are intelligent/sapient. They can almost certainly choose what effect they have on the Earth's surface at the moment of impact. The effect they choose to have is whatever "necessary change" is needed at that time.

      Nah, the argument with Glob and the spaceship definitely still works, because everybody on Mars seemed to think that it had enough kinetic-energy to wipe out the entire surface and everyone on it. Its kinetic-energy should be equal to any of hte Catalyst Comets. My point above is that just because one of the comets has enough K-E to have a High 6-A effect, doesn't mean it can't choose to negate that K-E at the moment of impact, and have a different effect instead, using its powers.

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    • Just edited my comment

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Just edited my comment

      And I just edited mine, lol we both seem to have a habit of doing that sometimes.

      Look at the edits to my post just above and you will see my explanation of why the Glob/spaceship scaling feat should still be valid. Everybody on Mars seemed absolutely positive that the kinetic-energy of the impact was going to be enough to wipe out the entire surface, that's why they were all in a panic that they were all going to die and there was nothing they could do about it. And just because a catalyst-comet has a High 6-A kinetic-energy, doesn't mean it can't use its Low 2-C reality-warping powers to negate that K-E at the moment of impact.

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    • Yeah, I think that's fine then. How big is the martian city though? Compared to Mars it's massive, looking at its infrastructure within the dome, it's just a regular sized city.

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    • I kinda Ninja’d ya about the nature of the comets lol

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Yeah, I think that's fine then. How big is the martian city though? Compared to Mars it's massive, looking at its infrastructure within the dome, it's just a regular sized city.

      Was the ship necessarily going to impact right on top of the city, though? If it was established that it was, then feel free to correct me on this. But I think the point was that it was going to wipe out all the martians REGARDLESS of where on the surface it impacted. Meaning it was going to wipe out the entire surface. Which would be consistent with it having K-E comparable to the Catalyst Comets.

      Yeah I just don't think it's appropriate to try to apply human logic or physics to try to understand the effect the Catalyst Comet impacts can have, given that they are fully-sentient Tier 2 reality-warpers. Lol. They seemingly DO have High 6-A kinetic-energy, but that doesn't mean they will actually cause any damage upon impact, as that depends upon their intentions.

      But dude. Don't underestimate butterflies! Butterflies can defeat the Ice King! Okay? Lmaooooo. Man, I love how silly this show was, I really freaking miss it. "Astral beast, coooome to meeeee!" And then it's just a swarm of butterflies. But then at the same time that turned out to have real significance, as we found out later that Finn was a butterfly in a past life, which would explain why butterflies are his astral beast.

      @JS250476 Yup, ya totally ninja'd me, lol. Stuff like this wouldn't happen if I wasn't constantly going back and making extensive edits to my posts, lol.

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    • I just quickly ran some vague numbers. Assuming the ship was a 10*10*10m block of steel traveling at 36km/s (the assumed speed for the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs), we'd be talking about 5*10^15J or small city level...

      I also realized that I messed up the tnt and joules chart. 100trillion tons of tnt is actually closer to large island or small country level (this is awkward...)

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    • @Goodyfish it happens man I get it although I didn’t notice these edits til I look at the posts again some time later.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      I just quickly ran some vague numbers. Assuming the ship was a 10*10*10m block of steel traveling at 36km/s (the assumed speed for the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs), we'd be talking about 5*10^15J or small city level...

      I also realized that I messed up the tnt and joules chart. 100trillion tons of tnt is actually closer to large island or small country level (this is awkward...)

      That ship was traveling interplanetary distances. Pretty sure it was traveling at Relativistic or Relativistic+ speeds. I still think it seemed to be implied that it was going to wipe out the entire surface of Mars, and had actual kinetic-energy on par with the Comets. That being said. . . .it's interesting to note that Small City Level is the same ballpark as Flame Queen's eruption. . . .which certainly seems like an interesting coincidence.

      Now the question is: Are the top-tiers 7-B, or High 6-A, or 5-C, or 5-A? Those seem to be the four possible choices we have to pick from. That's a very wide spread of possible values. Before you jump to conclusions and say Tier 7, though, consider the following:

      There's something else I thought of that should come into play here that lends credence to the idea of Tier 5 Adventure Time scaling from the Nameless Alien: Orgalorg, Hunson, Lich, and the other Primordial Monsters should NOT be any less powerful than the Nameless Alien. Think about it: The Primordial Monsters are supposed to be the most powerful evil entities in all of creation with the exception of beings like Golb. It would make absolutely no sense, in the context of the series' mythology and lore, for some random alien with five seconds of screen-time to be far more powerful than the Primordial Monsters are.

      I mean, think how little sense it would make for "The Breaker of Worlds," "The Last Scholar of Golb," and "The Lord of the Nightosphere" to somehow be many orders of magnitude weaker than some totally-rando alien who didn't even get a name. Lol. Also, at least The Lich and Hunson are both implied on a few occasions to scale to Death himself, and there is NO FREAKING WAY that the actual grim-freaking-reaper is somehow weaker than a random nameless alien. Lmao. We SAW a totally random no-name perform a Tier 5 feat, so I would assume that "The Breaker of Worlds" is probably itself capable of planetary feats.

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    • Completely ignoring that I don't think that the Lich is (physically) even close to Hunsor or Orgalorg, I have always seen the primordials within the tier 6 range (6-B to 6-A) and bottom tier character like Finn (yes I said it, Finn is very weak compared to many opponents he fights), putting him at mid tier 8 up to possibly mid tier 7. The alien was called one of the worst beeings in the universe, by someone like Prismo. The alien not being relevant to the story=it being weaker than some of the primordials. Being a primordial shouldn't grant a certain key anyways, at least not without any feats.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Completely ignoring that I don't think that the Lich is (physically) even close to Hunsor or Orgalorg, I have always seen the primordials within the tier 6 range (6-B to 6-A) and bottom tier character like Finn (yes I said it, Finn is very weak compared to many opponents he fights), putting him at mid tier 8 up to possibly mid tier 7. The alien was called one of the worst beeings in the universe, by someone like Prismo. The alien not being relevant to the story=it being weaker than some of the primordials. Being a primordial shouldn't grant a certain key anyways, at least not without any feats.

      Hm. I will admit these seem like valid points. However, I don't think Finn is as weak as you think compared to the top-tiers. The Grass Arm was able to chop up Orgalorg, and we clearly saw that in the final seasons, Finn was at least somewhat comparable to the likes of Fern (yes, Fern was stronger, but Finn could at least somewhat hold his own even when Fern was bloodlusted), and Fern is obviously the same tier that the Grass Arm was. Meaning that Finn from the final couple seasons is at least somewhat comparable to the likes of Orgalorg, however crazy that may sound given that he is just a human with a robot arm. Finn is no ordinary human though, anyway: He is the reincarnation of the Blue Comet, and that may have something to do with his seemingly inhuman potential.

      Also, don't forget that even early Season 1 Finn, at 12 years old, was able to punch Marceline (while in her giant bat form) so freaking hard that she admitted it actually hurt a little and it left a very slight visible bruise on her cheek before healing. That is REALLY impressive, because even early-series Marcy was very high-tier in this verse, and Finn has gotten much, much stronger since that time. End-of-series Finn should, at the very least, be comparable or stronger than Pre-Stakes Marceline, considering he has no doubt gotten at least dozens of times stronger than he was at 12 years old. If at 12 years old he could bruise her face, then by 17 he should be at least as strong as she was pre-Stakes, though still nowhere near her level after she absorbed the Vampire King.

      I tend to think that given we were shown some Nameless Alien performing a Tier-5 (or AT LEAST High 6-A, if the planet was as small as possible to still be able to have a liquid mantle and outer core) feat, this basically tells us "characters in this series can be planet-breaking tier." Thus, when they introduce a character LITERALLY called "The Breaker of Worlds," I am inclined to think that he is, in fact, capable of breaking worlds, since we know that such feats are possible for non-cosmic beings in the verse.

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    • @Goodyfresh

      Can you stop typing in all caps please?

      @Ultima Reality

      I would very much appreciate if you could properly organise this revision, by setting up a structure for how the profiles should be updated.

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    • @Goody Thats why I gave Finn such a wide range. Grass sword Finn for example is far stronger than just base Finn. Finn hurting Marceline is impressive, but I never saw her on the same level as someone like her dad anyways (she made it pretty clear that her dad is stronger than her). Pre-stakes arc Marceline is a Marceline that had the VK absorbed, isnt it? Also, even though Finn got way stronger, Marceline was always depicted to be stronger (like in the episode "Red Starved" in the fith season) than Finn, aswell as Jake and Jake>>>>Finn.

      Orgralorg being planetary has just one realy bad taste in my mouth and if its just the fact that he cant even get close to an earth sized planet, without the graity completely crushing him. In all of the flashbacks however, he was totally fine on the planets shown (for example when he throws that rock), makeing me belive that the planets he terrorized thus far were quite a bit smaller and if anything more into the 6-A, possibly (very) low 5-C region of things. IIRC he actually needed to almost completely leave earths athmosphere to get back to full size, just showing how badly he can handle gravity.

      The nameless alien was most likely used to show the strenght/cruelty of citadel inmates, rather than raseing the bar for Orgalorg anyways. The fact that someone who litterally runs around brakeing worlds should be confined in the citadel themselfs anyways. Even if one was to argue that they didnt chatch him, because he was to powerfull, I doubt they would have had an issue catching Gunther lol.

      Also, giving someone more or less featless such a high rateing becuase of a rando alien seems iffy in itself. Especially since there is no connection between the two of them. Besides that, he was more so depicted tyrannizeing the solarsystem, rather than going from planet to planet, blowing them up. This is also where the title comes from. I f something like that happened to me, I'd probably also give him a title like that lol

      About wether or not Martins ship would have crashed into the city. Yes it would have, since Glob flies straight at it. It would also take sub relativistic speeds for 6-A, and Relativistic+ speeds for tier 5 (which seems unreasonable, considdering he was heading straight for Mars and probably didnt want to crash himself)

      On a different note, why are the Lich and Orgalorg considered to be primordials anyways? Isnt the definition of a primordial to come from the void before time? Neither Orgalorg, nor the Lich have anything suggesting that that applies to them, but them being "pretty damn old". Did I just miss something very important?

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    • Anyways, we should propably go over all the points and see what are things we can/cant agree on and try to see where we still have open debates and where not/makeing sure we are all at least somewhat on the same page of things. I should probably go and bump that message I send to Darkanine, just in case he didnt see it.

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    • @RatherClueless:

      Yes, you did miss something very important. In the Lich's vision that he presented to the King of Ooo, in which he showed him the Primordial Monsters from before time, Orgalorg was visible among the monsters. Meaning that yes, Orgalorg is one of the Primordial Monsters. There's also the fact that that scene was pretty clearly meant to imply, without directly stating, that Lich was one of those primordial monsters. Also, in the Aventure Time Encyclopedia (which however may not be canon, it's debatable) Hunson Abadeer says that even he doesn't remember his own origins, as he existed since before time, when "there were only monsters" like Orgalorg and Lich according to Abadeer.

      Most of your other points do seem valid, however! I will grant that you are probably correct about them. Although, Orgalorg's weakness to planetary gravity is weird/inconsistent in its portrayal, so I don't know what to think about it. A couple more things to address:

      I went back and checked and you're right, Marcy did have the VK absorbed pre-Stakes, evidenced by her possession of his telekinesis power. However, it would seem she didn't have him "properly" absorbed, based on the portrayal in the show of how she gained a higher level of power than before after absorbing the Dark Cloud. . . .but, there is no way to know what exactly this means, it is debatable. Regardless, this makes Finn being able to hurt her while only 12 even more impressive. As I said, he's gotten like, dozens or hundreds of times stronger since then. While you may be right that pre-Dark Cloud Marcy was not on the same level as her dad, she was still very high-tier as far as this series' characters go.

      Also, you didn't address the fact that Finn was able to survive/hold his own against a bloodlusted Fern. That is crazy-impressive, really his most impressive feat of all without the grass arm. The fact that he didn't immediately get killed or maimed within two seconds of Fern becoming bloodlusted and going for the kill shows that Finn at that point isn't too far behind the Grass Arm, strength-wise. My guess is that he has been regularly continuing the training that Rattleballs showed him how to do, and has become much stronger as a result.

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    • Alright. I didnt miss the episode, but I just didnt see Orgalorg in that one shot (he is by far the smallest and weakest looking one of the bunch xD so cute OwO). The issue I have with the Lich being primordial is that I atleast assumed that it came into existance with the comet, which would have been kinda contradictory. What you are saying would imply that the Lich existed, then didnt and then came back into existance with the comet. AT lore gets stupid interesting really fast.

      About it being more impressive. Not really since it was heavily implied that her absorption is far from a 100% thing. An example of this would be (the) Moon being able to casually walk of sunlight, while Marcie cant. The VK was also very unimpressed by everything Finn did, not being able to hurt him at all. The VK never really had a propper feat anyways and was simply "above Marceline", whatever that might be. I dont think Marceline is weak by any means though. She is most certainly a High-tier in the verse, but (imo) not a Top-tier.

      Finn dodged/cought most attacks against Fern. The one attack that did scrape him actually injured him -> If Fern connected even one propper attack, that would have been the end of the fight.

      I'd personally also like to differenceiate between Fern useing the actual grass sword and his "shape shifting/vine ability", since the grassword under Finn only really started to get these crazy feats when it started to produce those weird vines/the grass arm. The grass sword also has very weird propperties (since its cursed and all), allowing Finn to do things like killing the Fear Feaster -> In some cases it might be more so a case of cutting with "hax", rather than with AP. (A good example for a sword with weird cutting propperties would be that of Wonder Womans being able to cut between atoms IIRC. Not saying its the same though!)

      Never the less, the grass sword is crazy fast and obviously Finn got stronger throughout the show! The issue here being, that going from lets say mid tier 8 to mid tier 7 would already take a factor of over 1000000(!)

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    • @RatherClueless:

      Marcy was upper-high-tier pre-Stakes, as you say. But her performance against Golb's monster in the finale shows that she is indeed top-tier after absorbing the Dark Cloud.

      We already know the Catalyst Comets are able to become one with all of 3+1 dimensional spacetime, so there's no reason the Lich can't have come into existence with the Green Comet while simultaneously having existed before time began.

      Since when do writers of fiction have any awareness of the level of numerical multiplier needed to upgrade a character by several tiers? DB Super had characters in the 48 minute long Tournament of Power upgraded from 3-A to Low 2-C, a literally infinite upgrade by two orders. Luffy in One Piece has gone from Large Building Level to Large Mountain Level, even though it is logically preposterous that Luffy has gotten a hundred million times stronger. That's just how the portrayal of tiering tends to be, due to the fact that writers do not know math. When I think about it, Finn likely has gotten literally millions/billions (or more) times stronger, regardless of how silly that seems logically. Saying he can't have gotten millions of times stronger because it seems illogical is an invalid argument by this site's standards, since that kind of thing happens all the time in works of fiction.

      The fact is that whether he was being overwhelmed or not, Finn still at least survived while fighting Fern, which indicates he at least somewhat scales to him. As you said, he managed to actually block some of Fern's attacks rather than just dodging all of them, indicating his strength is at least somewhat on-par with Fern's.

      I do agree that the issue of the Grass Sword/Fern's AP is iffy. I do get the sense from the show that it may not be a matter of AP, but rather some type of durability-negation hax. However, we have no actual proof that it is hax, and as such, we have to assume, by the standards of this wiki, that the abilities are based on AP, at least until proven otherwise.

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    • I am not saying he can't get that much stronger. It was more so a reply to you saying he got hundreds of times stronger.

      The grass sword also cut the Lich (only very few weapons/things can even hurt the Lich), so it has most certainly special properties, we just don't know what they are.

      I'd also like to emphasize the part about the difference between base sword and grass arm. ( At least that's how I see it)

      My original comment was also about base Finn vs Fern, rather than robo arm Finn. Two different versions. (One being clearly stronger than the other)

      also, Gumball Guardians top tier confirmed

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      I am not saying he can't get that much stronger. It was more so a reply to you saying he got hundreds of times stronger.

      The grass sword also cut the Lich (only very few weapons/things can even hurt the Lich), so it has most certainly special properties, we just don't know what they are.

      I'd also like to emphasize the part about the difference between base sword and grass arm. ( At least that's how I see it)

      My original comment was also about base Finn vs Fern, rather than robo arm Finn. Two different versions. (One being clearly stronger than the other)

      also, Gumball Guardians top tier confirmed

      Ah, I see. Well clearly, me saying "hundreds" was due to me not giving it enough thought. The actual amount seems to be millions, billions, or even more. Lol, writers are usually reallyyyyy freaking bad/ignorant at math and physics. That's why they got their degree in something non-STEM related, ya know? Lol.

      Well what we know about the Grass Sword's hax, is that it can harm dark entities/spirits/curses, even intangible ones like Fear Feaster. It's probably that particular hax, rather than any kind of durability-negation, that allowed it to harm the Lich, since the Lich is a demonic/cursed entity.

      I don't know if there actually is any big difference between the grass-sword and grass-arm, AP-wise. There might be, but again, we don't have much actual proof. Regardless, Fern's body was formed from the arm, not the sword, anyway, when it combined with the Finn Sword. Finn's arm literally crawled away from his body and combined with the Finn Sword to form Fern, so even if you're right that the Arm>The Sword, Fern should still scale to the arm and thus to Orgalorg.

      That robo-arm does seem to be pretty damn powerful, doesn't it? Sure does highlight just how impressive Peebles' scientific abilities really are. Makes sense though, since we're talking about the same woman who created the Gumball Guardians and discovered a formula for literally creating life from inanimate matter when she was still a child.

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    • I believe stuff like killing the fear feaster is non-physical interaction and I don’t think there’s any concert evidence it ignore durability against beings like the Lich. Fear Feaster was even saying “no mortal blade can harm” before being cut in half which to me highlights how the sword can effect these beings at all.

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    • Feat wise, yes the arm/the vines it produces are stronger. Fern should physically not be any stronger than Finn (I at least dont see why he should be), at least not without him useing his ability (the shape shifting), similar to how Jake is just as powerfull as a regular dog, untill he chooses to use his stretchy powers (thats at least what i wanted to say in the first post). We also later see Fern completely stomping Finn, when he actually used any of his "shape shifting" powers (Darkanine told me that he is probably "just mutated", but we actually see him just changeing his apperance many times, so its not like its something he cant do. He needed to look different/wanted to be different aswell).

      We also dont really have an idea of what Orgalorgs durability might be. For all we know he is the biggest glass canon in the verse (His durability seems to be based more so on stretchyness, than anything else)

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      Anyways, we should propably go over all the points and see what are things we can/cant agree on and try to see where we still have open debates and where not/makeing sure we are all at least somewhat on the same page of things.

      ^just quickly quoted myself. Once we are done with the Fern/Orgalorg/Finn thing, we should probably talk about this. I think I'll go to bed for now though.

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    • @RatherClueless

      By the standards of this site we can only go by things which are definitively proven by feats. Since Fern's body was formed from the Grass Arm, he should be on the same level as the Grass Arm, unless shown/stated otherwise. Without shapeshifting, his level should be the same as the Grass Arm's while at volumes no larger than a human body (which was still very high-tier for this verse, from what we saw of the Grass Arm's feats), while with shapeshifting, his level should be up to the level of the Grass Arm when it turned giant.

      We also can't assume that Orgalorg is a glass cannon. We typically assume on this site that a character's physical dura is on-par with their physical AP due to being able to withstand using their own attacks (this is due to Newton's Third Law of Motion), unless it is outright stated or shown that the character's durability is below their AP. And a weakness to gravity doesn't necessarily mean Orgalorg is a glass cannon; it just means that he has a weakness. Orgalorg was able to physically restrain the motion of the Purple Comet and stop its kinetic-energy, which should put his AP as At Least High 6-B (see below). By Newton's Third Law, if Orgalorg can use physical force that powerful, then his dura should be At Least High 6-B. Thus by scaling, the full power of the Grass Arm/Fern is At Least High 6-B.

      Notice I am saying High 6-B rather than High 6-A now. According to this site, the tier of the dinosaur-killing meteor, the Chicxulub Impact Event, was High 6-B! And in A.T., the Green Comet was the Chicxulub meteor, meaning that the K-E of the Catalyst Comets should be High 6-B, and thus Orgalorg's feat of casually/easily restraining the Purple Comet should be At Least High 6-B. This whole time we were saying High 6-A, but we were wrong.

      Conclusion: The Adventure Time upper-high-tiers and top-tiers should be rated At Least High 6-B!!!! This is by scaling to the K-E of the Catalyst Comets. Cool thing about this is that if we choose to accept it, we can have A.T. characters fight MCU characters :) :) :)

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    • Can somebody politely ask Ultima Reality to comment here again? You can tell him that I would appreciate the help.

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    • @ Goody Its true that its not proven/stated that one is stronger than the other, but its not like its baseless either. If Ferns body truly had the same specs as the vines that subdues Orgalorg or amped Susan, then why would he choose to use the grass sword? His arms would be sharp enough. Also, seeing how the grass sword was blocked by the robot arm, I have no issues to scale that arm, but since Finn himself makes it very clear that that is by far his strongest body part, it doesnt feel right to scale it to "all of Finn"

      We see that Orgalors body is indeed very elastic and stretch when he catches the comet and this would also explain, why he is so "weak" to gravity (Him catching the comet kinda reminded me of Luffy bouncing of canonballs lol).

      I feel like I also "need to" open a can of worms I would have prefered to stay closed lol. That being the fact that a sword doent need to have higher AP to do more damage. In other words: A 100Joules slap will do "less" damage than a 100 Joules punch, which will do "less" damage than a 100Joules sword swing. The reason why I tried to avoid bringing this up, is because I dont think the wiki even acknowledges even the existance of "intensity" (not really the correct term here, but whatever. Maybe potency?). In other words, a punch of Finn would do less to Orgalorg, than any sword, due to the distribution of energy (I kinda feel like I am explaining the obvious here lol. Ofc a swords gonna do more than a punch XD)

      Of course the "overall" damage will stay the same, but in one case we have just a painfull sting (across a large area), in the next a bruise (smaller area) and in the next a cut (very small area).

      @Ant I told Ultima to stop by again

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • @RatherClueless again:

      I think a better term than "intensity" when comparing swords to fists, would be "pressure." The same amount of force behind an edged weapon, results in a higher pressure than that amount of force behind a fist. Keep in mind though, that whether or not the true force behind a sword has to be, say, High 6-B in order to damage a High 6-B being, doesn't make it any less true that damaging or defeating a being of that tier makes the person "effectively" that tier--As long as they are using a sword, that is. Never thought of it before (and I know this has nothing to do with A.T., lol), but something like this could totally explain how Thor with Stormbreaker in Infinity War was able to bust through an energy-blast and barrier from the Complete Infinity Gauntlet, which should be something like Tier 5-A, despite the fact that Thor with Stormbreaker shouldn't be TOO far above High 6-B. The edge of Stormbreaker is very sharp, probably only a single molecule wide given it was forged using supernatural precision, so it should be able to bust through durability of a way higher tier than the actual force behind the weapon.

      So what are your thoughts, then, on the At Least High 6-B rating for characters like Orgalorg? I think it makes sense, since the K-E of the Comets should be that of the dinosaur-killing meteor, and since Orgalorg was able to physically restrain the comet. Just because this was partly due to his "elasticity," doesn't mean it doesn't reflect on his physical tier, in the same way that we don't say that Luffy is less strong/durable than his showings just because his strength/dura come partly/largely from his elasticity. Regardless of how he did it, Orgalorg literally physically restrained and stopped the K-E of the Purple Comet. The reason for the "At Least" part in the "At Least High 6-B" would be the fact that Orgalorg seemed to be able to do so, restrain the Comet, quite casually. A rating of At Least High 6-B perfectly matches something you said a number of posts back, where you said that it's always been your opinion that the A.T. top-tiers are somewhere in the range of 6-B to 6-A.

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    • I don't see any actual reason to assume that Orgalorg is a glass canon other than "he is elastic". At minimum I can see something like "At least High 6-B, likely far higher" for the Top-Tiers of the verse if people are really so adamant in removing the Tier 5 stuff.

      To elaborate on it a bit, the "likely far higher" part would come from stuff like Magic Woman's power being enough to boost the Elementals into their purest forms (which are heavily implied to be one with their respective elements in a universal scale going by what Bubblegum says), The Lich harnessing the Earth's life-force through his well of power, so on and so forth.

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    • @Goody I know that its pressure. I was more so wondering wether there is a word to dicribe the difference between pressure (intensity would actually be the right word if we were to talk about something like bundeling light with a mirror).

      The wiki also defines a tier by joules, not by "who can slap who", so technically no (technically becaus, like I already said, I dond think this wiki gives a sh*t). Since Finn was physically pushing against Fern, rather than actually blocking the sword (except with his robo arm), this would actually matter. If we assume that the grass sword is as sharp as an obsidian scalpell, we are actually talking about a factor of over one million (lol). This would mean: baseline 6-B -> somewhere around 7-A or 7-B.

      I dont mind the 6-B tbh. I actually even corrected my self quite a while agao, saying that I missread the chart and got tons of TnT and joules mixed up. The side I got the values from would actually put him somewhere around baseline low 6-B, so that should be fine. I also dont see an issue with a "likely/possibly (far) higher"

      @Ultima The Elementals were stated to have some weird pseudo-nigh-omnipresence, however, they dont seem to be in complete controll over the respective element. PB states that she shares a mind with all the candy, but that seems really off, since when Finn and everyone else invaded the Ice Kingdom, Patience didnt notice and if she would share a mind with everyone within the Ice Kingdom, the why did someone actually need to go and tell her? Slime Princess didnt seem to notice that Finn, Jake or LSP werent actually slime either. However, the elementals in that form are a completely diffrent issue all together and I'll tackle them in a different CRT (especially Chatsberrys second key, coz holy sh*t, thats just f*cking dumb xD).

      The Lich harnessing the earths power is, well, just that. Composite human (without prep) doesnt get a tier based on something like a powerplant, just because thats something we built lol. The Lich would be similar and should get a: at least "insert base tier", (likely) "insert Tier" (with prep time)".

      The glass canon was more so a hypothetical and the "being elastic" was to ephasize that thats the reason he could catch the comet. If he was straight up at the level of the comet, he would have stopped it dead in its tracks, but instead he actually "gradually" deaccellerated it. A character like Luffy isnt a glass canon for being stretchy either afterall haha, just saying in things like fights, they behave differently to just straight up being rock solid.

      I also think Ant wants your opinion specifically on what to do about the low 2-C rateing (since you are staff and all)

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    • @Goody Off topic. About Thor. Not sure where the high 6-B comes from (assumeing its Mjolnir), but the blast being 5-A would mean that Stormbreaker has a surface area that is somewhere around 4*10^12 to 2*10^13 times smaller than whatever caused that 6-B rateing. Thats quite a bit lol.

      This would actually mean that the cutting edge would be thinner/somewhere around as thinn as an atom (roughly in the 5*10^-14m region, so still thicker than a proton). Oof. However, this is "only" 10million times thinner than something we can actually porduce today.

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    • @Clueless

      The Elementals as a whole were basically consumed by the characteristics of their respective elements, and were mostly uncaring of the whole ordeal with Finn and Jake (Except for Flame Princess I guess). Slime Princess was in a dormant, basically drunk state when they invaded her kingdom, for example, and Flame Princess was so blind with rage that she couldn't think straight. Likewise, Patience didn't even care about Finn and Jake, and remained mostly cold and distant from everyone else (cause "ice-y" motifs and stuff). So yeah, i don't think their non-chalant behaviour contradicts them being Universal in scope.

      Besides, them being one with their respective elements across the universe wouldn't make them Omniscient or something like that. So that point is kind of moot.

      The whole point of the Lich harnessing Earth's energy through his well of power was regaining his strength and becoming powerful enough to destroy all life, though. Bubblegum implies that he was weakened both when Billy defeated him and during his early appearences in the series, so he had to recover his full power by converting Earth's energy into "unholy power".

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    • In that case the Lich would need a "in its prime" key.

      When it comes to Patience, it still seems kinda off, that she shares a mind with everyone, put "one part of her mind" gets really excited about the fact and feels the need to tell her in person, when she should already know. We also have charcters like the Flame King who can move freely within all flames (seeing him appear in the candles for example), but he doesnt seem to be "omnipresent" within all flames (he thought his daughter would be alone), so what the elementals have, might be something similar.

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    • I don't think this is really necessary, like, at all.

      The Flame King isn't an Elemental, he is just an inhabitant of the Fire Kingdom, and the forms the Elementals achieved after draining Magic Woman of her power were pretty clearly different from their normal states (Especially since Patience was herself an Elemental at the time and had access to her full power). They were pretty much reduced to their purest forms.

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    • This is going to be veeery long (sorry Antvasima) due to me first making a couple more points, and then proceeding to basically sum-up al the points I have arrived at by now based on this thread in a numbered list:

      I support the idea of separate keys for "weakened" Lich and "prime" Lich. That would explain why Billy was able to defeat someone as OP as the Lich using just a simple kick.

      I think the stuff about the supercharged elementals has too many contradictions involved for us to assume anything more than what we get from the calc of Patience freezing a quarter of Ooo, which was calculated as Large Country Level+, and was something she did casually as a result of her mere presence, thus "At Least High 6-B, Likely Far Higher."

      @RatherClueless: Whether or not Orgalorg "gradually" stopped the Purple Comet, it only took a few seconds, and Orgalorg did it casually. Also, Orgalorg pierced the body of the comet using its tentacle-things, significant because The Comet's physical dura should scale to its K-E since the physical essence of the Lich survived the Green Comet's impact.

      I would like to point out that Finn, not his robo-arm but Finn's fleshy human bod, survived a body-slam through a table from an enraged Fern who used his shapeshifting to make his arm huge, during the episode Seventeen.The volume Fern increased his arm to seemed to somewhat match the volume of the Grass Arm during its best feats like beating Orgalorg. Meaning that in fact, even Finn's human bod should be somewhere in the High 6-B range. I propose that Finn without-the-robo-arm should be rated At Least High 6-B AP and Dura, while his robo-arm's AP should be At Least High 6-B, Likely Far Higher with a note that it is still weaker than Fern, though.

      In conclusion, the following points are what I think I have arrived at:

      1. Nobody except cosmic-entities like Prismo and Golb should be Tier 2 or anywhere near it.

      2. The top-tiers like Orgalorg (and thus Grass Arm/Fern), Prime Lich, Hunson, Death, supercharged-elementals, should be "At Least High 6-B, Likely Far Higher" like Ultima said.

      3. By the final season, even Finn's squishy human flesh-bod should be At Least High 6-B via somewhat scaling to Fern even when he shapeshifts, and Finn's robo-arm is "At Least High 6-B, Likely Far Higher" for being able to put up a genuinely kinda-even fight against Fern.

      4. By point 3, anyone who should scale from human-bod Finn like pre-Stakes Marcy, Flame Queen, PB with non-supercharged elemental powers, Ice King, etc. should be At Least High 6-B. Marcy should be "At Least High 6-B, Likely Higher" since she's at the upper end among those characters, and Post-Dark Cloud Marcy should be "At Least High 6-B, Likely Far Higher" due to her performance against Golb's monsters. Similarly, Jake should be "At Least High 6-B, Likely Higher" and blue-shapeshifter-form Jake should get a separate key and be "At Least High 6-B, Likely Far Higher" as he single-handedly restrained one of Golb's monsters. Finally, as crazy as it sounds, even early-series 12 year old Finn should be in the 6-B range for being able to slightly bruise Marcy's face and make her feel pain.

      Does all that sound about right to you guys? Ultima, RatherClueless, what are your thoughts? Antvasima, sorry again about the giant wall of text, I know you've discouraged me from doing that but I kinda just wanted to sum up everything I've thought of so far in this thread all in one post.

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    • Seems good; I'll miss tier 2 Finn though

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    • JnSteHar002 wrote:
      Seems good; I'll miss tier 2 Finn though

      I won't miss Tier 2 Finn AT ALL, since he wouldn't be able to beat pretty much any other Tier 2 characters since the vast majority of them have a lot of hax that he couldn't handle. Lol. Tier-6 Finn, on the other hand, should have an actual chance of winning some matches, since plenty of Tier 6 characters don't have too many hax.

      Anybody else wanna weigh in on my giant wall-of-text post? I think that one and this one are going to be some of the last posts I make in this thread, as I've pretty much arrived at what I think my final conclusions on this will be, and said everything I want to say.

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    • @Ultima

      Would you be willing to organise these revisions. I would appreciate it.

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    • I'll talk a bit about that wall of text in a couple of hours. Kinda busy.

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    • @Goody Alright, lets take a look at this.

      Before I keep argueing the same point over and over again, I'll go and ask someone knowledgeble about the wikis standarts on this.

      Hey Ant

      I'll ask Andy.

      Wether Fern used his shape shifting powers to throw the table or not, doesnt make much difference. (Also, Fern being mad and flipping a table is probably still less than when he actually tried to kill Finn)

      Finn in the first couple seasons being 6-B doesnt make any sence at all. This is still a time when the guys in charge probably didnt know where they wanted to take this show lol. We are litterally talking about a Finn that got completely bruised up, by getting hit with a log in the face. Or how about that time Finn and Jake both agreed on that if the train that fell of the cliff actually crashed, they would have died? Or maybe that episode when they jumped off of some birds and broke their legs? Or even within that same episode Finn getting heavily injured by getting punched into the ground for like half a meter? (I know that these things are more so durability, but still) We also have a calced value for wizard Finn being in the Tier 7 region IIRC and wizard Finn>>>regular Finn.

      We also know that Marceline can effectively choose which power of which vampire she wants to use. Assumeing that she only used Hierophants power and didnt try to go all out against some rando human kid she just met, doesnt seem too far of a stretch, especially considering her personality.

      Honestly, just too many things that contradict a 6-B Finn in the first couple of seasons. The current main reasoning for Finn being 5-C in the first seasons is that he can fight on paar with the IK, howerver, the only time Finn overpowered the IKs magic/managed to break free from his ice was in the pilot episode. and this is completely diregarding that I dont even agree with the reasoning for the IK in the first place

      Talking about Patience freezing over a quarter of Ooo, I still have an issue with the currently assumed size of Ooo, if characters like Norm (fairly odd parents) gets a "note" saying "via reality warping", they should get a "via transmutation", since there is noone that can convince me, that PB in that form can hit that hard lol.

      Unless I missed something, I'd agree with everything else.

      Edit: Andy thinks the entire situation is strange and isnt sure lol. Skalt also answered the question on my wall and agrees, but doesnt know the wiki standarts either.

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    • @RatherClueless

      All of your points actually do seem valid, so I will concede all of them to you! Your arguments against those of my points which you disagree with seem completely logical to me, so you have convinced me :) You're right, Finn  bruising Marceline's face in Season 1 was probably just a very large outlier, at that point in time. Glad you agree with everything else besides what I said about Season 1 Finn and possibly the stuff about Patience freezing a quarter of Ooo.

      Damn, Finn really got a hell of a lot stronger over the course of the series, didn't he? Rattleballs' training must have done wonders. . . .who knew that repeatedly burning your ass on a grill and getting eggs thrown at you all day can make somebody that much stronger, right? LMAO.

      Getting serious again: It seems we have now mostly reached a consensus, and if Ultima ends up agreeing with the consensus-points I compiled in my list other than the ones you (RatherClueless) have perfectly logical reasons for disagreeing with as I just mentioned, then people can finally get started on the edits once Ultima organizes all the revisions! Sound good, Ultima? How about you, Antvasima?

      One last question, RatherClueless: What are we going to rate Season 1 Finn, and how are we going to figure out ratings for Finn during the seasons in-between before he eventually reached the lower end of High 6-B by the final seasons? As you pointed out, it seems like there was a ton of inconsistency and outliers involved with the portrayal of Finn and Jake's tiers before the writers finally decicded exactly what they were doing.

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    • Don’t quote large walls of text.

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    • I'd still like to wait for Darkanine to try to debunk anything here, since he is responsible for most Tier 5 reasonings, as well as aagreeing with the tier 2 reasoning. I dont think we need to wait for the 2-C thing though, since thats just very very questionable at best and has next to no actual basis and none of the points seem to make actual sence.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      I'd still like to wait for Darkanine to try to debunk anything here, since he is responsible for most Tier 5 reasonings, as well as aagreeing with the tier 2 reasoning. I dont think we need to wait for the 2-C thing though, since thats just very very questionable at best and has next to no actual basis and none of the points seem to make actual sence.

      Ah, well okay then. Seems fair.

      I did end up editing my post to remove the quoted giant wall of text, and to ask you one last question, RatherClueless! I will just copy-paste that question here:

      What are we going to rate Season 1 Finn, and how are we going to figure out ratings for Finn during the seasons in-between before he eventually reached the lower end of High 6-B by the final seasons? As you pointed out, it seems like there was a ton of inconsistency and outliers involved with the portrayal of Finn and Jake's tiers before the writers finally decicded exactly what they were doing.  It seems we engaged in so much discussion over what to rate the characters in the later seasons once they reached At Least High 6-B, that as far as I can tell (but do correct me if I am missing something), we totally forgot to reach a consensus about what Season 1 Finn and Jake should be rated, and what their ratings shuold be in the seasons in-between.

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    • There is one thing I find to be weird though, thinking about it (and sadly it somewhat contradicts one of the points I made earlier). Glob who is stronger than Orgalorg got destroyed by something he mistook for the comet. Orgalorg cought the comet. This leaves three options.

      1: Orgalorg has less AP than durability, while Glob has more AP than durability.

      2: Orgalorgs elasticity allowed him to "cushon" the impact, unlike Globs almost crystal like body

      3: None of the above and we just misinterpretaded something, regarding the AP of the comet vs the AP of Martins ship lol

      I also went around asking calc group members about the pressure thing and how that should be used. From what I can tell Antoniofer agrees with me, but not sure to what extend (interms of how it should be used) lol. DontTalk didnt answer yet.

      Edit: I guess there could be point 4, being a combination of 1 and 2.

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    • @Goody This CRT was mostly only for the (imho) highly wanked characters. I was planning on doing CRTs for every character in the verse, since there are more issues than just the tier rateing. We would actually need to look and see if we can find good feats for early seasons Finn (he was mostly just tanking stuff lol).

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    • @RatherClueless

      Okay, I can see what you are getting at!

      Yeah, it seems that perhaps Martin's ship may have actually had a HIGHER K-E than the Comets usually have. Which seems weird, but not impossible.

      About the "pressure" thing allowing for much lower physical force to harm beings of a certain durability with edged weapons: This isn't just an issue with A.T., but with this entire wiki, if we do in fact think that it's an issue. Addressing it would require major policy-changes across the board and content revisions for a ton of different profiles throughout this wiki. Something like this would definitely need a separate thread concerning it and would require a lot of input from guys like Antvasima in order to reach a proper consensus. Essentially, making any changes regarding how we treat this would require us to make new policies on this wiki across-the-board for how we treat characters who use edged weaponry. Undertaking such a task on this wiki would be MUCH bigger, more convoluted, and more difficult than this Adventure Time CRT undertaking, and look at how difficult just THIS has been. Of course hey, if you're willing to take on such a daunting task, be my guest. Not something I'd be willing to do myself, though, it would be a ton of work. Lol.

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    • Well, thats why I actually titled my question " A question about wiki standarts regarding pressure. " The values are just "place holders".

      Edit: DontTalk just answered: " A question about wiki standarts regarding pressure."  Or in other words "the wiki is f*cking lazy and only really cares when we are taking about factors around 10^12." This is the difference between 10-B and low 7-C lol

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    • Anyways. We should probably come to an end here.

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    • Well, we still preferably need Ultima's help with organising the accepted revisions.

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    • I know that xD. I was talking about the debateing for where we should put stuff. (especially since I have 2 more finals coming up in a week and I still need to study lol). For the Tier 5 stuff I wanted to wait for Darkanine anyways. Does anyone know where he went for the last, well, week by now I guess.

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    • I don't know, no, and he does not tend to answer my messages.

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    • If I had to guess most likely real life/college is keeping him occupied.

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    • I suppose so.

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    • Js250476 wrote:
      If I had to guess most likely real life/college is keeping him occupied.

      If he's in fact in college, then he's probably very busy with studying for and taking final exams at the present time, since this is the time of year for that. So yeah, it might be like another week or two before we hear from him, lol.

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    • I will ask Ultima.

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    • Hmm. Still no reply.

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    • Is anybody willing to properly organise these revisions? I would appreciate the help.

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    • I have little-to-no experience but I can try to help if you want

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    • What do you suggest?

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    • The show itself doesn't really have a huge chunk of the cosmic level feats. That stuff comes from the Enchiridion and comic series. It would be wholly unfair to derive feats solely from the show itself.

      I suggest reading through the comics and book to source for feats.

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    • Is the comicbook series truly canon to/regularly referenced by the show, or is the show only canon to the comicbooks?

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    • I haven’t seen a lot of the comics but from what I’ve seen, I’d guess it’s the latter

      Also, I think I should specify that I’m, also, still just barely understanding these changes to the AT - verse, let alone our standards and policies. I honestly thought I would just do some grunt work that nobody else would want to do. But, there’s a respect thread for Finn that even state the episode it’s from if that’s a good start for where he should stand in the earlier seasons.

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    • If the latter is true, we should obviously only use the main canon material.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      If the latter is true, we should obviously only use the main canon material.

      I know for an absolute fact that the comics are not canon to the main series, with the exception of the Stakes Prequel Comic, but that didn't have any cosmic feats in it so it is irrelevant to this discussion.

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    • They should at the very least get keys for their season 11 selves as season 11 continues after the main series so they scale.

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    • Is it stated to be official and written by the official regular writers of the TV show?

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    • The comic is called Season 11 because it was supposed to continue where the television series left off. It directly references and acknowledges the war that took place in the finale.

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    • Okay, but has it been stated anywhere if it is an official continuation?

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    • It's not a canon continuation, no. Just a comic with references to the series.

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    • Okay. Then we cannot use it. Sorry.

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    • It isn't canon to the main series. All the comics have been said or rather implied to take place in alternate realities.

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    • So rather than adding them to main canon profiles you'd have to create their own profiles. 

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    • Alright then. Guess they have to scale to their own feats.

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    • New profiles for characters that are mostly identical is not advised according to our regulations: Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles

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    • Anyway, let's return to the topic of getting this revision done please.

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    • I agree that the Low 2-C ratings should be taken away to avoid conflicts and inconsistency threads popping up.

      Most of these issues are calculations. Which I do not have expertise in so I cannot go over that. Maybe the calc members can go over them. 

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    • And also would the comic profiles actually be allowed on the wiki. The comic characters are mostly the same except their statistics would be much higher and they'd have a higher array of abilities.

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    • No, they would not be allowed. My apologies.

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    • Fair enough. They are diverse enough to be their own characters.

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    • There is still not much happening here.

      I would appreciate some help, and if somebody messages Ultima with a request to help us out.

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    • Bump

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    • Oof... This still exists, doesn't it...

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    • Yes. This is still important to get done, as the AT profiles are very unreliable.

      I would appreciate if somebody asks Ultima to help us out with this. Preferably other staff members listed in the Adventure Time verse page as well.

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    • Well, I am currently on my phone, so that'd be quite a pain. I can do it, once I get home in 5-6hrs though ,If I don't forget about it

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • done

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    • Thank you for the help.

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    • Bump. I disagree with it "just being the Cosmics" having the Tier 2 feats... Doesn't Vampire King , Darren , and the Comet all have Tier 2 statements... Littered throughout the original Adventure Time ? Personally If anything I don't see anything wrong with "Insert Downgraded Tier Here" , possibly "Insert Tier 2" here. 

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    • Lot of the Planet feats are pretty blatant.

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    • Vampire king has a statement, but its been disproven in verse. Darren has a statement of "I'll kill u across all dimensions...", which he never did (or even shown) He doesnt have a Tier 2 rating anyways (i think it was just treated as EE), same goes for the VK. The commet doesnt even has a profile and the woring of the thing that might make it tier 2 is iffy at best

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    • There was supposed to be another revision adding tier 2 to more characters but it never happened.

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    • Darren has two statements of affecting all reality actually and it's via magic not AP.

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    • Phoenix821 wrote: Lot of the Planet feats are pretty blatant.

      Sure... oh wait, no, actually. It was all debated above.

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    • We literally see an Alien destroy a plaent on screen and was imprisoned by the guardians.

      Orgalorg mentions destroying worlds and is called the breaker of the world, being crushed by gravity is just PIS when he's shown being fine on a planet before.

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    • Phoenix821 wrote: We literally see an Alien destroy a plaent on screen and was imprisoned by the guardians.

      Orgalorg mentions destroying worlds and is called the breaker of the world, being crushed by gravity is just PIS when he's shown being fine on a planet before.

      Oh boy. That first one scales to noone, except to MAYBE the guardians.

      We debated a lot about that second one.

      1. He has no actual showings

      2. He has no planet breaking statements, just his title, the breaker of worlds, which is sth he might have gotten with way less. He has been stated to tyrannize worlds and the solarsystem, never to break any.

      3. Its not PIS, the planet he was on might have just been way smaller (thus less gravity)!?

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    • Why wouldn't it scale to anyone The Lich killed some of the guardians,

      Orgalorg was considered a big enough threat that he had to be stopped by Grob Gob Glob Grod.

      It doesn't really make sense considering Orgalorg ruled the SS and terrorized planets why would Earth gravity specifucally compress him?

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    • For the record I’m fine with tier 2 being removed from AT bios (not counting Prismo and GOLB ofc) but anything below tier 5 is downplay

      As said the alien straight up destroys a planet on screen with a casual laser attack he was confirmed to have been imprisoned by the guardians and Lich killed him with just his essence

      This is not counting the other feats from Charlie and Warren who casually grows to the size of Earth and covers a whole planet respectively while drained of his life force

      To say these wouldn’t scale to Orgalorg is Implying he’s literally thousands to millions of times weaker then a random alien,Charlie and a Half dead Warren

      I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

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    • Rewatch that. The Lich didnt bother with the guardians AT ALL.

      Glob has 0 feats too... Oh no, wait. He got blown to pieces by something he misstook for sth that had country-ish AP (the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs)

      Why not? The AT solarsystem (and the universe in general) is way different than ours.

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    • "This is not counting the other feats from Charlie and Warren who casually grows to the size of Earth and covers a whole planet respectively while drained of his life force "

      Yet again, that has been covered (a lot). Do I actually have to re-debate the entire thread!?

      "To say these wouldn’t scale to Orgalorg is Implying he’s literally thousands to millions of times weaker then a random alien,Charlie and a Half dead Warren"

      Weaker than a random alien, which has been stated by prismo to be one of the worst in the universe? wouldnt orgalorg be in the citadell too, if he ever did anything like that?

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    • https://youtu.be/LN6wkk7KAgs 2:29 the Lich’s essence reaches one of the guardians and slowly kills him and he’s dead by the end of the episode so yes he very much effected him

      The fact Lich broke free from his crystal containment and the Alien couldn’t furthers proves his superiority as well

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    • The inmates went havock on the guardians and did way more than those flames, but for the sake of argument, lets say it was the Lichs essence. Still wouldnt scale, since that was death manip, rather than AP...

      No it doesnt. Thats just a passive the Lich has, like when he went through the ocean and all of the fish died. The crystall has been shown/stated (iirc) to be organic material.

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    • the inmates were hit by them and were fine it’s not some instant death technique like he used on Prismo’s human body

      https://youtu.be/wa8ijuLnSvM 0:38 one of the guardians straight up dies and falls into the water and his body was mostly intact outside of his head

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    • That just proves death manip even more, since right after that, we see a guardian, that lost half his head to the inmates and seems to be fine. The first on took way less actual dmg.

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    • This is also not even talking about the fact the the guardians themselves might not even scale to that alien, since we never even saw them capturing him.

      We do however know that guardians catch ppl with freezing/paralysis rays, which they fire through a portal...

      Me shooting a tranqudart at a boxer, wont make me the heavy weight champ either, now will it?

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    • I do not particularly have an opinion about this beyond that tier 2 is extremely exaggerated for most of the characters.

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    • Since this is a prominent and extremely mistiered franchise, I would appreciate if we could get this revision started.

      To better facilitate this, it might be a good idea to start a new content revision thread, with a summary of the preceding discussion results in the first post, that I can then link to in the official highlights thread, so we get more community input and assistance.

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    • Well, I think almost everyone is fine with removing the tier 2 rating. For the rest I would need to collect a bunch of feats to replace the current ones with (Beginning of series Finn is no where near tier 5 after all)

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    • Okay. Thank you for the help. Would you be willing to start a continuation revision thread for this, with a good summary explanation in the beginning, so we can get more help and input?

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    • For the 2-C stuff? That's basically accepted.

      I'd need some time for the other stuff

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    • For what we should scale them to instead of Low 2-C.

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    • For now what they were before that I guess? (Basically the previous key)

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    • Okay, but then you will have to investigate the edit histories in order to find out the previous statistics and what they were motivated by.

      Otherwise we will have to try to find their highest calculated feats to scale from.

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    • It is still important that we proceed with this revision.

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    • Would somebody experienced be willing to create a new thread with a summary of the discussion and conclusions so far, so we can get more input? I could highlight it if it is good enough.

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    • Bump.

      This is an important revision, so I would very much appreciate the help.

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    • Why is this still active when everyone who, ya know, actually watched the show, read the comics and researched the shows lore all agreed it was completely bunk and gave countless reasons why?

      The only people who agreed with the downgrade was 1 guy and a few who thought the current ratings just didn't "feel" or "seem" right.

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    • Not true. As far as I recall, Ultima and others debunked the current severely exaggerated and unreliable ratings, and we can only scale from the authentic canon material, not the comicbooks.

      The downgrade has been approved, but it still needs to be applied.

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    • Perhaps we should review the thread to be sure and not make a detrimental mistake?

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    • There are stilla lot of people who disagree with these downgrades

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: There are stilla lot of people who disagree with these downgrades

      I dont think that there was a single person disagreeing that low 2-C is wack. For the other stuff, almost all, if not all arguments that were brought up here recently were already covered in the thread.

      I currently dont have the time to redo a full scale CRT, since I am quite busy irl, so anything outside of commenting here and there might be a bit problematic.

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    • I agree with RatherClueless, and as I mentioned, I would appreciate help with this revision.

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    • @Rather I disagree with Low 2-C being inaccurate, as does dark

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    • @Weekly As do I, and I'm fairly knowledgable of Adventure Time.

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    • Well, I won't be able to debate for the next couple of hours. If you disagree pls leave your reasonings here so I can come back to them. I hope you have read the OP, since many of my opinions are already included within it.

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    • I don't think Oragarlorg should be downgraded he should be low 2c at least,Him lich and hunson should be way higher than what  there rated as. Anyway orgarlorg is a primordial monster than existed before time so logically he should have tanked the big bang

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    • The void exists separately from the multiverse, so no.

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    • Not extremely knowledgeable on Adventure Time but the op seems wrong.

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    • Im not knowledgeable. But the low 2-C thing seems like a massive outlier anyway. A set of characters whos feats cap at tier 5 suddenly reaching tier 2 because of one feat which on its own requires a level of speculation to assume valid or scaleable to the cast.

      @Dopyt Existing before time does not make you low 2-C or mean you tanked the big bang unless it was actually shown otherwise.

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    • There are actuslly multiple low 2-C feats iirc

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    • Really? I thought all the low 2-C stuff only came from this one feat. I know there is at least tier 2 stuff among certain characters that the main cast dont scale to, if thats what you mean.

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    • The only other (low) 2-C things I can think of comes from beings like Prismo.

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    • Theres also golb who apparently scales to him. A couple 2-As and some tier 4 to 3 stuff that i dont think the cast who scale to orgalorg scale to. So yeah, the low 2-C feat/scaling may very well be an outlier if true. But thats all i can really say.

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    • After having watched some episodes for fun, I feel like we're using the absolute high-end for the series instead of considering that levels of power in Adventure Time as a whole are inconsistent as all heck; for example, Finn has legitamate trouble busting through a stone wall at a point where we're saying he has Tier 5 striking strength.

      I'm not really sure what the solution is, since an "average" for what we see of Finn would be outlandish looking at both his low and high end feats.

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    • Finn has 0 tier 5 feats himself. The best feat for him I remember is a house blowing up on him. He can also wield a tree like a sword without issue and can get punched "deep" into the ground and still fight.

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    • @Dargoo

      Agreed. Thank you for helping out.

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    • Yeah. I personally watched adventure time as a kid and always saw Finn as a street to maybe wall level. I was pretty confused when I found he is tier 5 here.

      I think I remember fin beating enemies who would be small building level with sheer size at least. Though I think it sometimes involves attacking a certain part of them iirc. I suppose it depends on how consistent it is amongst the other characters and if it’s hax based or not.

      If the other feats aren’t accepted and there are only one or two legitimate tier 5 feats from the main cast then I do support a downgrade.

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    • Finn (imho) would be tier 8. He is by no means a high tier in his verse. Quite the opposite. He only ever wins due to immense amounts of PIS, when fighting stronger characters like the Lich.

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    • Pretty sure the demon he slayed in the episode where his dad calls him a pansy in recordings would be around High 8-C to 8-B.

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    • He never defeated that demon or are you talking about the "evil monster"?

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    • I meant the one eyed monster, not the blood dude, yes.

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    • Finn has currently class K lifting strength for hurling that thing. I honestly doubt it's that heavy though.

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    • It probably is. Class K is suprisingly easy to get for giants like that.

      But that's for another time. I agree that Finn was never shown or even really implied to be that powerful, and shouldn't scale with all the anti-feats.

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    • @ All the Nay-Sayers

      If you have an issue with downgrading this verse, don't just swoop in, say "I disagree" and leave again. That's not helping anyone.

      So I'll ask again to please drop some arguments so this can debated. If you are just going to come in and say "Nope" and that's it, then don't. It's not helpful and only hinders this thread.

      Thank you.

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    • RatherClueless is correct. The statistics have been proven to be extremely exaggerated and unreliable. We need to start to revise the verse, preferably soon.

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    • Downgrade to what levels?

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    • That's.... A different issue....

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    • What hasnt been fully agreed apon in the op?

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    • I thought that we would initially downgrade them from tier 2 to tier 5? That would at least be a great improvement.

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    • Well yes. I was talking about the tier 5 stuff. The the tier 2 stuff would (for now) go back to tier 5.

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    • Okay.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      The void exists separately from the multiverse, so no.

      That means they transced the multiverse which would get them higher

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    • Dopyt wrote:

      That means they transced the multiverse which would get them higher

      Wha-a-t...? No. It has no superiority nor transcendence. It's just not part of it. After all, the at verse is not High 2-A, but 2-A. One multiverse. There is more than enough space for a void.

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    • Why do so many people lately seem to think existing outside or before something means transcending it?

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    • I was born before the creation of several nukes, and I am not part of neither them nor the nations creating them.

      Kneel before my 7-B punches.

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    • I see no problem with that line of reasoning!

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    • I agree with removing Tier 2 at the very least. 

      Tier 5 has its own issues, namely if the feat came from the Farmland crown, I don't think we have a proper time reference for when the world freeze happened, and even then I think it was a period of weeks/months prior to Finn/Jake returning to Farmland to deal with the Lich. That and I'm not entirely sure how the feat really scales to Finn/Jake as someone freezing the planet doesn't really translate well to someone puching/kicking each other.

      And it wasn't Simon who froze the world either, it was Farmland Finn iirc. Since Simon was dead and all by the time Finn found him.


      Also, why do we have a key for Orgalorg w/ the Catalyst Comet absorbed when he never actually accomplished this in canon?

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    • Wasn't the story that once Simon died stopping the nuke and the crown itself inceased the planet in ice out of grief? Was a long time since I watched it.

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    • I think it's because the time freeze is shown to be very quick and the time was assumed. Also it apparently scales to the Ice King who scales below Finn. I agree this reasoning is pretty shaky because it assumes the Ice King always exerts himself in the same way the crown did to freeze the world but he clearly does not. Otherwise he would freeze the world because that type of ability has planetary range.

      No Simon didn't freeze the world, the crown did out of grief. It just melted way before Farmland Finn was born.

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    • I agreed with Tier 2 being removed ages ago. Finn isn't Tier 2 in canon. He's Tier 2 in the comics.

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    • @Dargoo

      Would you be willing to organise some revisions based on the above discussion? I would appreciate the help, as Ultima Reality seemed to have lost interest when I asked him.

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    • EmperorRorepme wrote:
      I agree this reasoning is pretty shaky because it assumes the Ice King always exerts himself in the same way the crown did to freeze the world but he clearly does not. Otherwise he would freeze the world because that type of ability has planetary range.

      To be fair, it's kind of a given that Ice King doesn't have full control of the crown or even competent with it in general, seeing as the full potential of the crown can change "the very nature of existence".

      So the crown itself 'freezing the world out of grief for Simon' could very well likely be something Simon is incapable of doing himself.


      @Ant

      Sure. There's a lot of stuff to go over, and honestly I'd be surprised if anybody on the site is satisfied with the answers we get to given the nature of the series.

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    • The full potential for the crown is 2-A through likely chain reactions but isn't that only through wish magic? Wish Magic can harm existence but Ice Crown Finn harming existence seems extremely weird. It's likely because he had the Enchiridion which is extremely unpredictable and bearing in mind the Lich was also in that universe.

      I don't agree with that it implies the Ice Crown was amped upon Simon's death or Simon's usage limits the Crown. It's more likely it's possible for the Ice King to exert himself in that way but he either doesn't know it or just doesn't. I mean looking at his character it makes this seem more possible.

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    • @Dargoo

      Okay. Thank you very much for the help.

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    • The crown by nature is obviously stronger than what Simon can use it for... any look at his use of powers screams "not enough power to freeze the planet for centuries if not millenia".

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    • @Dargoo Great. If you need any help at all, you can ask me and I'll see what I can do.

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    • EmperorRorepme wrote:

      I don't agree with that it implies the Ice Crown was amped upon Simon's death or Simon's usage limits the Crown. It's more likely it's possible for the Ice King to exert himself in that way but he either doesn't know it or just doesn't. I mean looking at his character it makes this seem more possible.

      My point is "Ice King doesn't have full control of the crown even in its current state", which would mean that the crown doing something itself need not scale to him. Simon using the crown doesn't make it any less powerful, but he doesn't seem to have acess to anything near what the crown itself did in farmworld.

      If anything, I can point to all the times Ice King exterts himself doing feats that are incredibly below freezing an entire planet (his fight with Flame Princess is a good example); as I've said power levels fluctuate based on the needs of the plot in Adventure Time incredibly often.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      Power levels fluctuate based on the needs of the plot in Adventure Time incredibly often.

      Exactly.

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    • After some thought I agree. It could be that the crown in the Farmworld is extremely more powerful than the crown in Prime AT world actually which would make sense since their powers differ so much. Because taking into account all the feats Simon has done and there are even times when he can't use the crown because he's used too much ice or exerted himself too much in one day and not even coming close to he moon freeze feat so yeah you're right.

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    • That is... not what is being said. The two Crown are equal, the crowns user's simply don't scale to it.

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    • I just named a possiblity. Did you read fully what I said?

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    • I'm just having a hard time coming up with what would be "consistent" for the main cast; Finn at his lowest showings isn't even at 9-B while you can go to pretty weird places with his highest showings.

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    • Doesn't he fight giant monsters a lot? Maybe he could scale from that?

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    • He can scale from a lot of things, that's the problem, kind of.

      He also has the aformentioned trouble breaking through entirely regular walls on a surprising number of occasions, such as when he's trapped by Fern, when he's stuck in the Hall of Egress, et cetera.

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    • I think his most consistent would be when he's fighting monsters yes. He's fought Jake multiple times even whilst he's in a huge state and fought big monsters on various occasions.

      I'm pretty sure those walls with Fern weren't regular walls iirc. And Hall of Egress I'm very unsure because that was kind of some abstract lesson episode not sure if it is consistent.

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    • Maybe you could do something like Atleast such and such and goes up to such and such

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    • It would take a while to calculate and compare all his feats to see which are consistent.

      His highest could be Tier 5. If it's most consistent it would be somewhere around 7 and 8 probably.

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    • You have a point with the Hall of Egress (although nothing is explicitly stated or shown that says that the walls are stronger than normal) although there isn't anything particularly unique about where Fern leaves him.

      I do agree his monster fights could form a kind of consistent basis, though.

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    • so around tier 8 or 7?

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    • Probably. Ignoring scaling him to other characters for the time being, that's where his peak is at.

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    • ok.

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    • Yeah I guess. I think we should rule out fights with cosmic beings. Those are way too inconsistent. Like harming Hunson and The Lich.

      What about the Grass Sword do we treat it has a higher tier than Finn himself?

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    • Well, not really? Since Fern is literally the Grass Sword + Finn Sword and Finn's stalemated him consistently.

      I'd just cut out scaling to powerful mages/cosmic beings, since that makes his set of feats generally more consistent.

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    • True.

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    • Well, he is at least 10x weaker than anything Jake ever did (not in giant form)

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    • How about a variable tier?

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    • That's sort of what I suggested.

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    • I wouldn't be opposed to the idea tbh.

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    • Hmmmm. That seems like a fine idea. Since his tier can vary from literally human level to 5-A at his most critical points in the same season. I guess it'd be based on the serverity of the situation and what the plot demands.

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    • At what point in time was Finn ever shown to be 5-A or comparable to someone 5-A

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    • He's fought cosmic beings like The Lich, Hunson Abaderr and Orgalorg whilst not directly comparable he has harmed them all and received blows from them.

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    • Finn fought Fern at least twice, the second time he killed him. Fern has stomped Jake, Susan Strong and held off Sweet P. Jake should be stronger than Charlie who has a 5-A feat and Sweet P killed The Lich. Not to mention he's survived blows from Lich Bubblegum and hurt Marceline as early as season 1.

      Fern is literally the Grass Sword which killed Orgalorg. Finn is equal to Fern.

      It doesn't matter that Finn never destroyed a planet by himself, he's comparable to characters with similar feats.

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    • I should also mention the grass sword has harmed top tiers extremely consistently (cut Orgalorg apart, cut Liches arm off, crushed Buff Susan Who stomped Jake and Rattleballs).

      Fern is literally that + Finn and Finn has matched him in combat and tanked hits from him several times (on the beach, the swamp, before he killed Fern and when he was the Green Knight.)

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    • Yeah you guys are kinda trying to throe scaling out the window under the ssumption that it doesnt exist because Finn himself has never busted a planet with a punch. He has fought and severely injured numerous beings tht scale to tier 5 feats over the course of the show

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      Power levels fluctuate based on the needs of the plot in Adventure Time incredibly often.

      Again, this. There is no possible way to claim that Finn is consistently tier 5, that's just ignoring 99% of his showings.

      The show is not consistent in powers, at all, ever.

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    • There are one continent level feat, two multi-level continent level feats, two Moon level feats, two small planet level feats, a planet level statement, two large planet level feats and tons of scaling between those feats. How much more consistent do we need to get here?

      Edit: And there's like 3 Tier 2 statements, but I'm fine with calling those outliers honestly.

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    • The part where none of that is consistent. Going from tier 6 to top tier 5 is not consistent, and doesn't make the fact that there are tier 7 feats. And tier 8. And tier 9, too.

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    • If I had to make a comparison. Goku in DBZ has never busted planets none of the attacks he’s tanked have shown to destroy planets (usually just raze mountains or islands) and the only straight up planet bust he got hit by was Cells and he completely died.

      Yet we know Goku is Far above planet level cause of consistent scaling and feats.

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    • Piccolo is the only member of the main cast to destroy anything more than a mountain. Clearly, Saiyan Saga Piccolo is the top of the heap.

      It doesn't matter though. Of course there are more Tier 9 feats, because the show doesn't go into sci-fi plots very much. We still have a total of like 5 Tier 5 feats in the last few seasons of the show, which is way more than most series get. Not to mention they're supported by casual Tier 6 feats in the early seasons.

      There's also Chatsberry probably creating a dimension that had planets. I forgot about that one.

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    • "Finn fought Fern at least twice, the second time he killed him. Fern has stomped Jake, Susan Strong and held off Sweet P. Jake should be stronger than Charlie who has a 5-A."

      1. The Chartlie feat has been covered a lot in this thread and iirc it was deemed as "no, noone scales to charlie"

      2. Why are any of the ppl you listed 5-A?

      "Fern is literally the Grass Sword which killed Orgalorg"

      An incredibly weakened version that took like 10 minutes to move a distance of maybe 20 meters. Orgalorg even in his prime has nothing but the title of "destroyer of worlds"

      I should also mention the grass sword has harmed top tiers extremely consistently (cut Orgalorg apart, cut Liches arm off, crushed Buff Susan Who stomped Jake and Rattleballs).

      Orgalorg I have already covered. The Lich has been stated to be immune to many weapons. If you have the right weapon however, you can harm the Lich. The Lich has 0 reasons to be 5-A. The guy literally tries to harness the power of the earth to get back to his former glory to destroy the earth. Kinda pointless if he would be 5-A as is.

      Neither Susan, Jake nor Rattleballs have a reason to be 5-A.

      "Finn has matched him in combat and tanked hits from him several times"

      Only his robo arm. He is utterly outmatched otherwise.

      "There are one continent level feat, two multi-level continent level feats, two Moon level feats, two small planet level feats, a planet level statement, two large planet level feats and tons of scaling between those feats. How much more consistent do we need to get here?"

      Most of them are badly made, dont scale to Finn (or the majority of the cast) or dont scale at all.

      "Not to mention they're supported by casual Tier 6 feats in the early seasons."

      Most of them assume outlandish numbers and even then they dont scale to characters like Finn since he never wins against any of these characters in a fair fight. For example the IK never loses to him unless his crown is kicked of (excluding the pilot episode)

      "There's also Chatsberry probably creating a dimension that had planets"

      The guy is dead and only exists within PBs dreams. If anything that key is useless and should be removed.

      Edit: @Doggo Are you Darkanine?

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    • "Edit: And there's like 3 Tier 2 statements, but I'm fine with calling those outliers honestly."

      I totally missed this one.

      Well, I know the one about the commet (which isnt a tier 2 statement btw, but whatevs), but what are the other 2 (which you could at least somewhat scale to Finn and the rest of the main cast)?

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    • So basically the debate that Orgalorg, Grass Sword, Hunson and the Lich being 5-A restarts.

      How do we know the Orgalorg was weakened in comparison to Pre-Crushed. Orgalorg doesn't only have that title. He has a claiming statement of destroying worlds in his little monologue to Finn and he scales to Hunson and The Lich.

      The Lich's durability isn't negged the instant Finn gets a special weapon better than the usual. Don't know where this comes from. So harming the Lich would scale to Finn's AP. Also AP and destructive capacity are very different which has been shown with the DB examples.

      Finn does scale to Fern they literally fought and were relatively equal for a time and Finn used both arms if his body wasn't a match for Fern's AP he would have been beaten extremely quickly. Fern did outmatch him near the end of their fight but that doesn't mean Finnn doesn't scale, Finn's robo arm killed Fern.

      Also Dreams in AT are actual realms I think. I had a few scans for that.

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    • " He has a claiming statement of destroying worlds in his little monologue to Finn and he scales to Hunson and The Lich."

      His best feat is still throwing a large rock. It was also in the context of his open door philosophy and how he is going to absorb the commet. Why are the Lich and Hunson tier 5?

      "How do we know the Orgalorg was weakened in comparison to Pre-Crushed"

      I literally said why.

      "The Lich's durability isn't negged the instant Finn gets a special weapon more than the usual. Don't know where this comes from. So harming the Lich would scale to Finn's AP. Also AP and destructive capacity are very different which has been shown with the DB examples."

      Why do I think that? Where does that come from? Idk, PBs and Finns statements as well as in verse showings? The Lich has 0 durability feats. Atually, other than fighting Finn and jake the Lich doesnt have any physical feats at all...

      I never said AP = DC. I said its dumb for the Lich to absorb earths energy to have the power to destroy earth when he already is 5-A...

      "Finn does scale to Fern they literally fought and were relatively equal for a time and Finn used both arms if his body wasn't a match for Fern's AP he would have been beaten extremely quickly."

      Fern didnt hit once. If he did, Finn would have died.

      "Also Dreams in AT are actual realms I think. I had a few scans for that."

      Only if the someone like the cosmic owl is within them. Also, by that logic everyone in AT is low 2-C for creating a universe whenever they sleep...

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    • 1. Always uses robo arm (the arm he wields the sword with)

      2. Dodges most attack

      3. Even if he blocks he uses both arms struggleing while Fern casually pushes him back with one...

      Edit: 4. He uses his magic demon sword which is supposed to be his strongets sword yet.

      Edit: Edit: On top of that, what does it matter? Neither of them are tier 5

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    • Also, just because a verse has a lot of high tier feats, that doesn't mean everything and everyone scales. In the case of AT this went so far that straight up everyone has the same Tier.

      "Well, Batman has fought Superman a couple of times and didn't get completely stomped right away. I mean sure, he used a robo suit, but still... That should scale. He is also an important and usefull member of the league. They have a bunch of tier 4/5 characters. The verse also has a lot of tier 1 and 2 stuff and even some casual tier 6 and 7 things, so I feel like a tier 5 Batman is reasonable."

      The issue with that sort of reasoning should be plain to see. Finn is the Batman of his verse. Weak but still somehow usefull.

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    • That's why we propose a variable tier.

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    • I don't mind that. I just disagree with him being tier 5 even at his best.

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    • Ok lets agree to disagree for now til we get this CRT done.

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    • That context doesn't matter. He didn't say I'm going to absorb the comet and then destroy planets. He was referring to the past when he said it. The Lich killed with his fire Guardians who scale above the Nameless Alien. Hunson scales to The Lich and Orgalorg and has statements of being able to destroy Ooo completely in the encyclopedia.

      Ok and? He was in space and had decreased mobility. He was just propelling himself.

      Weapons being able to harm the Lich doesn't mean it negates durability I don't think it's ever been stated to bypass his durability and he literally broke the weapon with one hand. The Lich just scales to Hunson and Orgalorg. That isn't really dumb considering he wouldn't have the DC to destroy earth so using the well of power to do it in some way would make sense.

      Finn scales to Fern. Even in your own points above.

      No it was more like the realms already existed anyway. I'll need to look at that again. Anyway even if that was the case dreaming doesn't scale to striking strength or durability and it's already been established that human level characters dream other dimensions.

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    • That Batman example falls apart because with his suit he actually is comparable to the high tier league members and literally fought Darkseid in one of his better suits but anyway...

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    • I gotta say weapons working on a character =/= character is specifically weak to said weapon it just means that weapon is strong enough to overcome the durability of a character. And you don’t assume it specifically bypasses there durability unless it’s explicitly shown like say Samurai Jacks sword vs Aku or the Master Sword vs Ganon.

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    • The argument that Finn only matched Fern because he had his cybernetic arm sorta falls apart when we see Jake blow the guy back and Finn has fought evenly with Jake in the past.

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