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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:2984709
    07:17, May 4, 2019

    So scaling non-canon characters to canon ones are no-no but we just stumbled to this.

    So in BBTAG discussion, Lightin and I have a debate around scaling the terminology of Blazblue to BBTAG. The problem is that the terminology of the verse was ripped from the canon then slapped it into the crossover. They didn't change anything. Nox Nyctores is still Nox Nyctores. Azure is still Azure. Boundary is still Boundary. Phantom Field is still Phantom Field. Hell, one of the main elements of the plotline, that being Phantom Field, has the same process of creation with Es or Meifang's Phantom Field.

    We do scale the terminology of the series to non-canon series if it's exactly the same, we use it to many non-canon spin-offs, look at Dragon Ball or One Piece. Because they are portrayed as the same, we pretend that they are the same. Like how Android 21 has Saiyan Powers even if DBFZ is non-canon. Same with non-canon One Piece movies.

    So I ask this. If a non-canon spin-offs/crossovers just ripped off the same terminology from the canon with absolutely 0 changes, do the terminology get scaled at all? This is quite a problem so whatever the answer will be, add it to Crossover page, this is annoying to deal with.

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    • The problem wasn't just PI or having some PI powers, just having them all without it showing them is the problem. Same for the fact that it shouldn't have mid godly scaling from canon Noel

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    • Rip, I was in the process of making a thread. Let me just copy-paste what I was about to say:

      "Been brought up in the Cross Battle Tag threads, so let's actually settle it here. Our standards regarding what kind of crossover characters to allow are either inconsistent or have been vastly ignored/misinterpreted.

      We currently just don't have any rules that regulate those. The Crossover page only covers scaling between different verses, and the Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles page doesn't cover crossovers directly, only non-canon spinoff.

      The closest we have is our 4th rule about Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles, which states that:

      "Franchises which contain non-canonical spin-offs/movies/videogames, etcetera, each with their own continuities and feats, yet not to the extent that Marvel and DC Comics do, should only be allowed profiles for notable original characters from said spin-offs, and not alternate versions of canonical characters, unless they are very prominent and notable."

      "[..] If the alternate non-canonical version of a character is notable enough in the sense of having their own feats, and a different role and purpose, then it is possible that profiles for them can be created."

      Now let's look at our category for Crossover Characters. I think it's fair to say that very few of those profiles are actually notable enough to warrant having their own profiles. Characters who are pretty much the same except stronger due to fighting stronger characters are everywhere.

      So I think that we should add a rule that specifically covers Crossover versions of characters and which ones would be allowed.



      Now in my opinion, this rule should be the same as the non-canon versions rule. The crossover version should be significantly different than the original version. Not just in term of sheer stats, but also preferably their story, their abilities, how they're treated, etc.

      So characters who are just the original version but dropped in a crossover, with little to no differences, shouldn't be allowed. This includes the Mortal Kombat DLC profiles, most Smash Bros. profiles, etc.

      Characters that should stay (again, imo) would be, for example: All original characters, Godzilla (Marvel Comics), as it's far different than the "original" Godzilla and comes from a franchise with many different Godzillas anyway, some Smash profiles like R.O.B. due to being partially, if not entirely defined by the crossover they're from and Unknown Specimen 1, again due to being treated vastly differently from the original character and having different showings and abilities."

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    • Even as noob as Terumi can do self-observation, let alone the guy who can PI the Boundary.

      Everyone in the canon never shown all of PI powers by themselves, they just can and we scale all of it to them. PI isn't a power that you get new applications from by sheer force or training. Only thing that separate them is scale.

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    • PI is defined in the canon of Blazblue, it was established as having many uses for an observer, that's why scaling them in canon is fine. Scaling PI directly from canon in a crossover is going against the rules, same reason why Ultron Sigma is almost haxless. The PI powers it has shown are fine, i'm just against literally taking them 1:1 from canon

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    • Saikou The Lewd King wrote:

      Now in my opinion, this rule should be the same as the non-canon versions rule.

      I would have thought crossover characters are non-canon versions.

      The suggestion doesn't sound bad in any case.

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    • Yet we'll scale the terminology? No, it's contradictory, we scale it, but at the same time, we don't scale it. Ultron-Sigma is a special case cuz Ultron just changes abilities in different canons.

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    • It didn't show most of the powers it has under PI and its no way in hell 2-A or has mid godly directly scaling from canon. The rules say that you need to scale from the crossover, i.e the feats that are already present in the game

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    • I kinda don't agree with "you need to have different origin/how they're created" to be accepted because I know a person that should definitely have profile while being crossover character, acknowledging that she is from another verse. That being Eltnum (Under Night In-Birth).

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    • I agree with Saikou's suggestion.

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    • I agree with Saik’s suggestion.

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      It didn't show most of the powers it has under PI and its no way in hell 2-A or has mid godly directly scaling from canon. The rules say that you need to scale from the crossover, i.e the feats that are already present in the game

      They have the same terminology. We do that to Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto, and many more non-canon spin-offs. Unless you tell me that they are wrong.

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    • Okay so by Saikou's suggestion BBxTag profiles would be allowed, good to know

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:2976272#89

      ^previous thread

      I do agree with Saikou. Different verses, different scaling.

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    • @Weekly No

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    • @Saikou Yes, BBxTag characters are entirely different from their canon counterparts, different skillsets, different abilities, different feats, different everything

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    • ShiroyashaGinSan wrote:
      LightinAnt wrote:
      It didn't show most of the powers it has under PI and its no way in hell 2-A or has mid godly directly scaling from canon. The rules say that you need to scale from the crossover, i.e the feats that are already present in the game
      They have the same terminology. We do that to Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto, and many more non-canon spin-offs. Unless you tell me that they are wrong.

      Yes but they don't scale the exact same from canon, like Luffy being tier 4 for sparring with Goku. They are its own thing from canon and should be treated as such

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    • Tier 2 RWBY

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    • No, DBFZ ain't canon. We scale Saiyan and Cell and others powers from the canon, even if they aren't canon just because they are portrayed as the same. It's literally the same principle with BBTAG we are talking right now.

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    • And tier 2 Arcana Heart, Tier 2 Blazblue, Tier 2 Under Night In Birth, and Tier 2 Persona

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    • BB and technically Persona were already Tier 2

      Can't wait for UI Goku for Ruby or something dumb like that.

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    • ShiroyashaGinSan wrote:
      No, DBFZ ain't canon. We scale Saiyan and Cell and others powers from the canon, even if they aren't canon just because they are portrayed as the same. It's literally the same principle with BBTAG we are talking right now.

      DBFZ isn't a crossover, it's obviously 100% DBZ stuff, so the scaling is fine

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    • Yes, BBTAG characters should be allowed, they have their own storylines, feats and even some additional abilities.

      And don't tell me that they should have different origin. Because I know Akatsuki and Eltnum from Under Night are acknowledged that they are from their own canon and if they shouldn't have profiles, I will say it's fucking BS.

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    • See and therein lies the problem that i have had a sneaking suspicion for as to why this is getting so much pushback; because RWBY is involved. No one has an issue with all of the BB characters being tier 2, nor the UNIB characters. Its the RWBY characters that everyone is against being tier 2. Everyone is just fine with Soul Calibur crossover characters being scaled into the verse like nothing, but god forbid we apply the same rules for RWBY characters in an identical game.

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    • I somehow have difficulty believing that these crossover characters are anywhere near different enough from their original counterpart to have a profile, Weekly.

      If you could take the crossover version of the character and drop it into its original verse with no issues, then it's not different enough.

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    • @Weekly I could also claim that you're only supporting this because you'd love to have Tier 2 RWBY. See I can play the accusations game too. It doesn't lead anywhere.

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    • @Saikou Then delete all of the crossover characters from Soul Calibur

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    • I have nothing against the argument for it. I'm just laughing at how ridiculous it sounds on paper. I find the idea funny but I don't disagree with it. Site has profiles for Smash Kirby so yeah.

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    • Saikou The Lewd King wrote: @Weekly I could also claim that you're only supporting this because you'd love to have Tier 2 RWBY. See I can play the accusations game too. It doesn't lead anywhere.

      go for it. You'd be wrong but feel free to do so. them being tier 2 will only be another pain in my ass.

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    • @Weekly What I'm planning to do indeed, if my rule passes. Smash Kirby would also need to go.

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    • I agree with deleting crossover characters who are the exact same just with different tiers and hax

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      I agree with deleting crossover characters who are the exact same just with different tiers and hax

      That'd also means Tier 4 Ryu and Akuma would have to go.



      That actually makes me a little sad. Dunno how to feel about this though.

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    • 2-A Dante would have to go as well

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    • They have different resistances that they are getting scaled from. Ragna and Hakumen has space-time manipulation and Azrael has Teleportation and such.

      They have their own feats, Ragna and Hakumen breaking through infinite space-time and System merging universes.

      Why do you need to have different backstory to be accepted anyway? Eltnum literally said that she came from Melty Blood and the same girl yet she is completely different. She doesn't have bloodlust, she can hit non-existent, she should have Type 5 Immortality, she can summon Hermes now, she appeared on three games with her own story mode, remember, that's ALL Under Night games.

      You can make characters that are crossovers that have same backstory if they are different enough.

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    • Resistances aren't enough to make a profiles. Also considering that this is primirarily a BB game, I wouldn't consider these characters proof enough that the other characters are different enough for a profile.

      You don't need different backstory, but it certainly helps. But being the literal same character with a few different abilities isn't enough. Otherwise, tons of Smash characters would also be allowed. And we don't want that.

      I'd say to look at the examples I listed. Godzilla in Marvel looks nothing like Godzilla, plus there is no "original" Godzilla anyway. The few allowed Smash Bros. characters have been defined by Smash Bros. itself in many ways. Captain Falcon had no abilities and a completely different personality before Smash, and this even went on to affect his canon self. Duck Hunt Dog was literally just a dog before, now it can manipulate grass, transform itself into a weird 8-bit sprite, summon stuff and bullets, etc.

      Characters are bound to gain new abilities in crossovers, especially game-based ones, that's nothing new. That doesn't make this version of the character suddenly something else entirely and worthy of a profile.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: 2-A Dante would have to go as well

      Isnt 2-A Dante actually important enough to the plot

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    • @Edward He's as important as the RWBY characters are to BBxTag

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    • I'd also add that mentioning individual characters won't help the case of other characters. We can  go on a case-to-case basis. A few characters having huge changes won't make other characters with smaller changes worthy of a profile. Pointing out, again, Smash Bros., which we already do this for.

      Should I just go ahead and highlight this? Seems relatively important.

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    • I'm for a highlight. This seems to be a pretty important topic.

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    • Yeah highlight

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    • Saikou seems reasonable here; also, I need to note that Composite profiles that mix canon and non-canon together is ill advised. Godzilla has multiple canons that are equally owned by Toho, but unsure about including Marvel comics in the Godzilla profile. The Non-Canon Majora's Mask manga version of Link is Low 2-C, but Composite Link only includes canon versions; so Composite Link is good where it's at.

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    • Uh...Composite Link includes non-canon stuff too

      So does Godzilla

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    • Could you be more specific? It includes stuff from all three timelines that are canon. Triforce Heroes and Four Swords are canon as well? It doesn't have Manga or Game & Watch. Actually not sure if it contains Warriors, but it shouldn't via being Non-Canon.

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    • Composite Godzilla cannot not include non-canon stuff, since all of his versions are from entirely different canons.

      Meanwhile Link's versions are just from different universes/time periods.

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    • >People who never played a Shin Megami Tensei game wanting to delete SMT Dante

      Seriously, people, do some research. Dante is a part of the Main Storyline of Nocturne, appears in unskipable cutscenes that every player will see, is an unavoidable early game boss fight, and if you want to reach the True Demon Ending you have to fight him a second time. And he's actually directly tied to the plot.

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    • WeeklyBattles
      WeeklyBattles removed this reply because:
      19:59, May 1, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Well, that depends. Obviously Composite Godzilla can't include some fanfiction story that puts him at 1-A or above. I think Marvel did purchase some rights from Toho to make a Avengers Vs Godzilla comic.

      But yeah, Composite Link contains all Links from different timelines/time periods withing the primary canon. Non-Canon spinoffs are a big no.

      Also agree with Matt about SMT Dante.

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    • So easter eggs don't count? Kano (Arkham Series), for example, you need to complete a specific scenario before facing him.

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    • @Matt The same goes for RWBY in BBxTag yet people dont think they should be allowed

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Matt The same goes for RWBY in BBxTag yet people dont think they should be allowed

      I don't think so either because that's a crossover fighting game that's non-canon to all parts.

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    • "part of the Main Storyline"

      check

      "appears in unskipable cutscenes that every player will see"

      yep

      "is an unavoidable early game boss fight"

      mhmm

      "if you want to reach the True Ending you need them"

      correct

      "actually directly tied to the plot."

      bingo

      so please tell me how theyre not the same

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: I don't think so either because that's a crossover fighting game that's non-canon to all parts.

      And thus they scale to the feats present in the game itself

      Ruby is literally one of the four characters required to get the true ending of the game itself

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    • My point flew a yard over your head.

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    • No it really didnt. Unless youre arguing that SMT is canon to DMC somehow

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    • Arguing that characters important to the plot in a Massive Crossover would mean that nearly all characters in such games would be allowed. Which doesn't work at all. There is a difference between a cameo crossover and a mutual massive crossover like BBTG or Smash.

      That being said, I don't agree with allowing SMT Dante either though. Him being important to the plot doesn't relate to the issue with such characters in the first place. It doesn't change the fact that it's just Dante but stronger and with some new abilities.

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    • Dante's character in SMT is completely different from what is shown in his own game though.

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    • How much different is it? That's a much better reason than just saying "He's important to the plot!"

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    • This is not staff only right?

      I agee with Saik with SMT Dante, I always found that profile a bit suspect.

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    • Dante in Nocturne is based off his DMC2 self where he acts depressed as all hell, while in Nocturne he sports a more playful, laid-back attitude, more similar to what he has in other games.

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    • I agree with Saikou. A character simply having some different stats, powers and being involved with the plot of the crossover but basically still the same as we've always seen, shouldn't have a profile. It's one thing if it's completely different take on that character, like if a character goes evil or chooses a completely different path in life but even then it have to be case by case.

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    • SMT Dante is a separate character from his DMC counterpart. He's canon to SMT which isn't a crossover verse by any stretch of the word, but not canon to DMC at all.

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    • How does that make him different if he has a personality that is similar to his other appearances...?

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      SMT Dante is a separate character from his DMC counterpart. He's canon to SMT which isn't a crossover verse by any stretch of the word, but not canon to DMC at all.

      huh, if that is the case then I guess my mind has been changed.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      How does that make him different if he has a personality that is similar to his other appearances...?

      Because his character is different from what he's like in the original game.

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    • But he is similar to every other appearance, so again, how does that make him a different character?

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    • Hell if thats the case then i should point out that Ruby is more serious in BBxTag than she is in the show, therefore she's a different character

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Hell if thats the case then i should point out that Ruby is more serious in BBxTag than she is in the show, therefore she's a different character

      Dude, that's not even remotely close to how different SMT Dante is from DMC2 Dante, which the former is based off of.

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    • So would Tekken Akuma’s profile be deleted or not? He is a major character in the story but he’s got nothing unique that distinguishes him from his canon profile

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    • Yeah and Ruby is based off of Volume 1-3 wheras she's more serious than anything she's portrayed in the show, on top of having bunch of new abilities and feats

      Therefore, by your logic, she is a different character

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    • RebubleUselet
      RebubleUselet removed this reply because:
      Apparently that's not really true
      20:25, May 1, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Considering, by your own words, Dante's character in SMT is identical to his personality in all of his other appearances, its nowhere near a 180 personality

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    • What about Injustice crossovers? Are they safe?

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    • Pardon me, haven't played the game, but people are telling me that Ruby's character in the game is the same as in the first 3 volumes.

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    • @Crazy Nope

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    • @Reb I have played the game and her personality is that of volumes 4-6

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    • Ruby is literally the exact same as she is in the first 3 volumes, there is practically no difference besides her strength and abilities

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    • Lol. Rip Hellboy then

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    • What about easter egg fights like Kano (Arkham Series)?

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    • @Crazy that would be gone too

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    • SMT Dante should stay.

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    • Look, in DMC2 Dante is someone who barely speaks, deppresed and doesn't play with his enemies preferring to end them ASAP.

      SMT Dante is the completely opposite, talks a lot, plays with his enemies, and is considered a member of a whole another race that doesn't exist in DMC, that is without counting his importance to the plot and how he is part of the actual cannon of SMT. 

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    • @Tony Meanwhile Ruby is identically as important to the plot, a part of the BBxTag canon, and is one of the four required characters needed to get the true ending to the game

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    • Only Guest characters in SC that would be affected by this is like 2B, Link and Ezio. Geralt is literally essential to the plot and is canon to Soul Calibur Vl in every shape or form. Same for SMT Dante, Eltnum, Akatsuki, etc. Being essential to the canonical plotline of the home series should make them allowed. Hell, all the guest characters in SC have their own mini plotlines such as Kratos and Link. Even worse, Link from SCll is a completely unique Link. Let's not get ridiculous here. I see no reason for Dante or Geral especially to be deleted when they are canonical to those respective franchises (Geralt to Soul Calibur, has his own story mode and appears in other modes. Dante is explained above)

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    • @Dragon Then Ruby should be allowed

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    • I repeat; Importance to the plot shouldn't matter. That's not why we're preventing all crossover versions in the first place. What maters is how different they are from their original versions.

      If we cared about importance to the plot, we would have allowed stuff like Anime Goku looong ago.

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    • Wait a minute...I thought there was a retcon in the DMC timeline. Like we thought that DMC2 was end but really the timeline is: 

      DMC3 - DMC - DMC2 - DMC4 - DMC5 

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    • I don't really care about BBCTB and to me it doesn't matter if they scale to somenthing or not, I'm talking about Dante who actually scales to the characters in the game, has a similar backstory but is from another race, doesn't have devil trigger, so on and so far.

      If and only if the RWBY characters scale to the BB/Persona/Undernight characters to what feats would they scale? AFAIK the game is no cannon for everybody and should not scale to the actual counterparts nor their OG abilities unless they used in the actual game, same for the AP feats.

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    • TheC2 wrote:
      Wait a minute...I thought there was a retcon in the DMC timeline. Like we thought that DMC2 was end but really the timeline is: 

      DMC3 - DMC - DMC2 - DMC4 - DMC5 

      Not sure if this is related to the topic at hand.

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    • I'm not familiar with the games, but isn't the argument for SMT Dante staying that Dante is canon to SMT itself? Not just the crossover? Ruby wouldn't have that since her crossover game is non-canon to all series involved.

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    • I could careless about whether Ruby is allowed or not. There is a stark difference however. BBTAG in essense is a crossover game. Under Night, Soul Calibur and SMT are not crossover games. Hell, to add to that, Lili from Tekken is canonical to Digimon as she appears as a tamer in one of the games and is intergral to the plot. The characters who appear in those plots are canonical to said franchise. Characters who canonically appear in non-crossover games should be perfectly fine. The issue should crossover specific games like BBTAG, Smash, MvC, etc.

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    • @Tony They would scale to the feats present in the game itself

      Aka 2-C

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    • RebubleUselet wrote:
      TheC2 wrote:
      Wait a minute...I thought there was a retcon in the DMC timeline. Like we thought that DMC2 was end but really the timeline is: 

      DMC3 - DMC - DMC2 - DMC4 - DMC5 

      Not sure if this is related to the topic at hand.

      I'm trying to figure out why peole keep using DMC2 Dante to compare SMT Dante.  EDIT: I apologize for not being clear about that. 

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    • Honestly, I say that the moment you are canonically important to the plot of another non-crossover game, you are allowed to have a file dedicated to that verse. However, crossover specific games are a different beast.

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    • Also, Dragon has a point, the game is a crossover game meant to be just that. If we allowed a bunch of crossover profiles then we should put like 60 more crossover profiles just for the Smash verse.

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    • BBxTag would literally just scale to the stuff in their own verse and nothing else, nothing from the other verses, and only have what is shown in game

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      Honestly, I say that the moment you are canonically important to the plot of another non-crossover game, you are allowed to have a file dedicated to that verse. However, crossover specific games are a different beast.

      So Tekken Akuma is fine then?

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    • Because SMT Dante is based on the DMC2 Dante, so for obvious reasons he is compared to the OG one.

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    • Can we please stop retreading the same damn topics over and over and over AND OVER again??

      Matt already settled matters with Crossovers a while ago, but not THAT long ago for the standards to be questioned now. Jesus. The staff and community sat threw this long thread about this. Everyone was in agreement, so what the hell is this?

      The deja vu /cyclic nonsense is just keeping this site stagnant because we keep going over the same crap in an endless cycle.

      We need to start linking threads to pages about our standards so those who have the need to question them can at least go over the previous discussion. Spares us all the redundancy...

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    • Anyway, here's what a very reasonable veteran staff had to say about the matter:

      "IMO crossover pages should only include original characters or characters tied into the story of the game in question. Like in MK, there's the Tarkatan Xenomorph, who's actually implemented into MK's lore/setting by making it a Facehugger who latched onto a Tarkatan. Or Geralt being part of SoulCalibur VI's story mode. It'd be better if the "important to the plot" section specifically excluded crossover fighting games."

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    • @Sera Okay but we're talking about the Crossover Fighting Games thing now

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    • Frankly all I really care is if BBTAG profiles can be implimented.  It'll only be non-canon counterparts, and Mori counted it as a possibility.

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    • By crossover fighting games I mean stuff like MvC, CvS, SF v Tekken, MK vs DC, etc. Not stuff like guest characters. Obviously if a guest character is part of the story, they scale in-universe. So yes, SMT Dante stays.

      I think original characters like Ultron-Sigma are ok but obviously we wouldn't have a page for like...Thor (Marvel vs. Capcom).

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    • I don't agree with that. But since it's already been discussed so much, it be what it is.

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    • I agree with Sera as well.

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    • To basically give some examples.

      Jedah (MvC) - No

      Geralt (SC) - Yes

      Dante (SMT) - Yes

      Lili (Digimon) - Yes

      Hyde (BBTAG) - No

      Eltnum (UNIB) - Yes

      2B (SC) - No

      Ezio (SC) - No

      Link (SC) - No?.....Honestly, Original Timeline SC characters before SC lV are hard to pinpoint as Link has his very own story in game. But eh.

      Anyone in Project X Zone - No

      Bayonetta (SMT) - I dunno

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    • Jump Force is also a big no.

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    • Also agree with Sera.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:

      Bayonetta (SMT) - I dunno

      She has a side-story dedicated to her and Jeanne interacting and fighting against/alongside the protagonists throughout its course, as well as expanding a bit of the lore. And every two weeks to a month or so they add new side-stories, that never really contradict the main one. They also have their unique skills as demons.

      That's really the most I can say about that. If you want, I can link you all of the story's cutscenes.

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    • Ye, Bayonetta could have her own profile just like Dante.

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    • Dx2 at the moment has rather ambiguous scaling anyway so let’s not jump the gun, seriously.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      Jump Force is also a big no.

      don't remind me this disappointing game owo

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    • Saikou The Lewd King wrote: So characters who are just the original version but dropped in a crossover, with little to no differences, shouldn't be allowed. This includes the Mortal Kombat DLC profiles, most Smash Bros. profiles, etc.

      Couldn’t agree with this more. There has been a recent spam of crossover characters because scaling in the crossover gives them a higher teir, and that’s basically it.

      Hardly any of them differ from the original as much as let’s say, Red Son Superman from regular Supes.

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    • While I agree with most of Saikou's proposal, my issue lies when we actually have characters who in canon are relevant to the actual canonical plot of said series, i.e Geralt from SCVl or Dante from SMT.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      While I agree with most of Saikou's proposal, my issue lies when we actually have characters who in canon are relevant to the actual canonical plot of said series

      I mean, us excluding them from the wiki doesn't make them stop being relevent to the plot. That's a seperate issue then them basically being the same character in the crossover and the profile being a Copy + Paste of the original profile (Geralt was literally this before I had to CRT out some abilities) with a different tier.

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    • Plot relevant people can be relevant for scaling, resistances, etc. I think that those are fine, even if they're someone else, but mere guest fighters in random fighting games and stuff that are just sorta there are extraneous.

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    • @Wok And what of crossover games where the main characters are extremely relevant to the plot?

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    • I have no idea, I don't even know crossover verses besides smash. Apparently Dante is.

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    • Wokistan wrote:
      Plot relevant people can be relevant for scaling, resistances, etc.

      And if they aren't?

      I'm rather sure characters like, as Dragon mentioned, Geralt and Dante, don't have feats that define the tier of other characters or abilities that give other characters resistances.

      Even then, in the case of resistances, you really don't need a profile to link to for where they came from.

      Actually, I'd like an example of a crossover character that is just a copy + paste of the original that gives feats that are relevent to other characters in the verse to begin with, I've never heard of this before.

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    • @Dargoo Anyone from Blazblue Cross Tag Battle

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    • Not much to say that hasn't already been said. I would agree with allowing profiles when the character is an integral part of a non crossover story, and a significant departure from the source material in crossover stories.

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    • I mean, even if we just end up with other characters simply having higher tiers, I truly see no issue with it. If they are apart of the story then they are eligible to get a file. If not, then they don't get a file. I don't see us keeping this character from being this tier via being canon in this story as something we need to do. It causes no harm and really can't be abused as we specify that they have to be canon to the story in a similar vein to Geralt or Dante. Characters like 2B from SCVl are not allowed obviously, but if we have characters who originate from other franchises, but have a relevant appearance in another game, then they are judged by the abilities they have in that game and the stats they have in that game alone (unless there is some species or lore specific abilities they must have). However, we need to specify that we mean canon and relevant to a NON-CROSSOVER story.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      I don't see us keeping this character from being this tier via being canon in this story as something we need to do.

      We aren't keeping a character from being a certain tier, we're just preventing them from going on the site because having the same exact profile but with a different tier is meaningless.

      Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      It causes no harm and really can't be abused as we specify that they have to be canon to the story in a similar vein to Geralt or Dante.

      You could say the same of Crossover game/stories in general. "There's no harm/it can't be abused" doesn't mean having the same exact profile five times over with different statistics is any less redundant.

      Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      Characters like 2B from SCVl are not allowed obviously, but if we have characters who originate from other franchises, but have a relevant appearance in another game, then they are judged by the abilities they have in that game and the stats they have in that game alone (unless there is some species or lore specific abilities they must have). However, we need to specify that we mean canon and relevant to a NON-CROSSOVER story.

      They should still meet our standards for crossover stories, and I don't see what makes them the exception to this rule personally. Crossover games/stories have all their characters canon to the story being told, look at the plot to Marvel vs. Capcom. But if the character is essentially the same, but with some abilities missing I don't see any use in having the profile. If they provide relevant feats to the story, sure, but I've yet to even see an example of that.

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    • Personally I think things are far too convoluted here. It's just like Sera said.

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    • "We aren't keeping a character from being a certain tier, we're just preventing them from going on the site because having the same exact profile but with a different tier is meaningless."

      Which is a needless waste of time and effort and is simply being overly and needlessly restrictive. The higher tier and scaling to a completely different cast.

      "You could say the same of Crossover game/stories in general. "There's no harm/it can't be abused" doesn't mean having the same exact profile five times over with different statistics is any less redundant."

      Redundant or not, we are an indexing site. If we end up with 70 Geralts who appeared in different series and is actually relevant to those plots, then we just have all 70 Geralts. Redundant or not, they still meet are standards as legitimate profiles.

      "They should still meet our standards for crossover stories, and I don't see what makes them the exception to this rule personally. Crossover games/stories have all their characters canon to the story being told, look at the plot to Marvel vs. Capcom. But if the character is essentially the same, but with some abilities missing I don't see any use in having the profile. If they provide relevant feats to the story, sure, but I've yet to even see an example of that."

      Aside from the fact that these are not crossover stories? Is all of Soul Calibur Vl a crossover stories because Geralt canonically meets and fights characters as an intergral part of the plot? Is SMT Nocturne a crossover story because Dante appears as a vital opponent and ally? Is Digimon Re:Digitze a crossover story because Lili from Tekken is a prominent character? Not it doesn't. At this point they are SC, SMT or Digimon characters, not crossover characters. There is a stark difference between MvC than say Soul Calibur Vl or SMT Nocturne. MvC is explicitly a crossover title when the games I mentioned are not, and simply have one character who originated from another series an extremely relevant player in their story. That alone should qualify them from a file.

      I have otherwise yet to see a reason to deny them other than "they are the same character with a different tier and thus are redundant". If said character is canonical to the plot of another franchise, then they deserve a file for what they did in that franchise. I still side completely with Sera. We accepted things once already after a long discussion and are simply making things overcomplicated when the answer is simple.

      Plot relevant characters are allowed and random guest characters or crossover game characters are not.

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    • If the consensus is that "Guest characters that are canon" are okay, I'm fine if it saves everyone a headache so we can move on with this and get rid of the more problematic profiles.

      I'm not a big fan of redundancy, and as I've said Geralt was quite literally (and still sort of is) a copy + paste profile of Canon Geralt, but I can see I have the minority opinion here.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:

      To save time on this I'm fine with debating this later; I'd rather have this thread accomplish something first instead of devolving into walls of text debates.

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    • I agree with Dragonmasterxyz.

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    • For what it's worth, I also agree with Dragonmasterxyz. We are a character powers & statistics indexing Wiki, & Vs Battles are considered a lower priority, presumably, because, it doesn't matter so much what the statistics are, so long as that we have them documented.

      Not documenting a notably different iteration of a notable character, in an officially published work, with notable powers/abilities, simply because that iteration is non-canonical seems silly to me.

      I also feel that they should have a notable role in the story, difference in characterization, or a VAST difference in abilities. Of course, assuming we do that, do we put these crossover versions as keys, their own profiles, or maybe, if a character has enough crossover versions, make a "Character (Crossover versions)" or "Character (Non-canon versions)" so as to condense them.

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    • I also think that Sera makes sense.

      In addition, she makes a good point in that some staff member should probably find and link to important relevant defining discussions in notes sections for some of our policy pages, in order to avoid constant stagnant repetition.

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    • Sera EX wrote:

      Like in MK, there's the Tarkatan Xenomorph, who's actually implemented into MK's lore/setting by making it a Facehugger who latched onto a Tarkatan

      The rest of that quote seems fine, but to poke at that specific example, there's nothing in MK canon that has the Xenomorph in it, as they made no appearance in the story.

      There's it's ending in the ladder, but we generally disregard those in terms of canonocity.

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    • There's a reason why the page is called "Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles". Some crossovers are canon to one side but not the other, believe it or not.

      So far, Mortal Kombat vs. DC is canon to Injustice, but not Mortal Kombat. This is evident in-game.

      It's a shame that "being the same version of a character with a different tier" in a "non-canon setting" is such a controversy while composite profiles which are literally just "combining all canon versions of a character into one so they can have all their equipment and powers" is totally allowed and unquestioned, despite composites also being, by technicality at least, non-canon. Hell, combining all versions of a character into one is fan fiction, but I don't see anyone making threads saying "Composite Characters belong on FC/OC".

      Both should be allowed, with some standards for good measure. I agree that the current standards revised by Matt and co. may need to be rewritten a bit to be made more clear, but those standards are perfectly fine in actual definition.

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    • Sera EX wrote:

      So far, Mortal Kombat vs. DC is canon to Injustice, but not Mortal Kombat. This is evident in-game.

      MK vs. DC is referenced once or twice in Injustice 2, I don't think it was ever confirmed as canon to Injustice, nor do I think that the interactions are sufficient evidence as they happen outside the story.

      Sera EX wrote: It's a shame that "being the same version of a character with a different tier" in a "non-canon setting" is such a controversy while composite profiles which are literally just "combining all canon versions of a character into one so they can have all their equipment and powers" is totally allowed and unquestioned, despite composites also being, by technicality at least, non-canon. Hell, combining all versions of a character into one is fan fiction, but I don't see anyone making threads saying "Composite Characters belong on FC/OC".

      We're far more selective with composites than we are with anything else in the site, and the exceptions should not define the rule, as it is said.

      It's "being the same exact character in a non-canon setting" that is the issue. The different tiering isn't the issue itself as much as it is a symptom of the issue. As an indexing site we generally disregard non-canon events in stories; making a profile for every single one of them is redundant especially for characters with a massive abundance of them. Hence why being selective benefits the site.

      To use your reference to composites though, we should definitely be just as selective in allowing these profiles as we do composites since they're so similar that they can be used in the same argument.

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    • It’s not non-canon, it’s alternative canon.

      I’m not referring to Ryu in Asura’s Wrath because that’s DLC fan-service. Unfortunately, I agree with removing files like that. I’m referring to Dante in Shin Megami Tensei because he is literally integrated into the story of Nocturne. SMT Dante is canon to SMT but not DMC, so Dante scales in SMT but DMC Dante (from DMC 2 onwards) is not treated as 2-A. That’s fine and should be allowed. That shouldn’t be controversial in any shape or form.

      Likewise, Ultron-Sigma should be allowed but we don’t have and shouldn’t make 50 something pages for every crossover appearance that Thor makes, each with their own incompatible scaling.

      The general rule of thumb for crossovers in the first place is that power-scaling gets thrown out the window. If Namco and Capcom want to have Dan one shot Devil Kazuya in a crossover game, they will do it. Of course that doesn’t mean Dan scales.

      This should not be a hot topic worth a highlight, it’s been done to death in the past. Regression is a big issue the site has to endure these days.

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    • Would you be able to link the previous thread on this and describe its conclusion?

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    • Kep even outright says he seen the discussion numerous times. So I know I’m not the only one.

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    • I mean, I've seen several profiles of the same character from the same franchise getting this.

      Goku has a GT, DB Evolution, and Heroes profile, with differing scales from the canon counterpart. But since the message has already been said, I guess there's nothing else to do.

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    • Wait hold on, Mortal Kombat is indeed linked to MKvsDC. It's been referenced in MK11, and Injustice 2 with their endings.

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    • So a profile for Akuma from MVC isn’t allowed but I profile for Cyber Akuma from MVC is allowed since he has a canonical reason for existing and has unique abilities regular Akuma doesn’t?

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    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote: I mean, I've seen several profiles of the same character from the same franchise getting this.

      Goku has a GT, DB Evolution, and Heroes profile, with differing scales from the canon counterpart. But since the message has already been said, I guess there's nothing else to do.

      There’s a substantial difference here.

      Dragon Ball GT? Alternate Canon (is its own continuity) DB Evolution? Alternate Canon (is it’s own continuity literally not even crossed with the animanga). Dragon Ball Heroes? Alternate Canon (is its own continuity). These canons don’t conflict with each other.

      It seems we need to have a literary lesson on what the word “canon” means. If something is it’s own continuity, it obviously falls under the definition of being part of a canon. DBGT is it’s own continuity. Just because it’s not in continuity with DBS does not mean it’s not part of the Dragon Ball Canon. Dragon Ball Canon is anything created by or endorsed by Akira Toriyama and Shueisha, that includes the anime created by Toei and the many video games. What separates the DB canon is continuity.

      Non-Canon is stuff like fan-fiction (or “fanon”), or one-time special events, stuff that’s not to be taken seriously or literally or not to be seen as part of the official canon. Goku in Street Fighter 2 is non-canon. Goku in DBH is alternate canon.

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    • I personally think that the 8-A xenomorphs need to go since that crossover was terrible and nothing says that the predators are in the same verse as the xenomorphs

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    • @Sera

      Would you be willing to link to appropriate relevant defining discussion threads in the Crossovers and Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles pages. That should reduce the repetition.

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    • Subjective quality is not a factor here. “It sucks” is not a valid reason, unless you’re just joking.

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      So a profile for Akuma from MVC isn’t allowed but I profile for Cyber Akuma from MVC is allowed since he has a canonical reason for existing and has unique abilities regular Akuma doesn’t?
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    • More or less, yes.

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    • @Sera Ruby Rose from Blazblue Cross Tag Battle is canon only to that game and not to RWBY itself, she features some unique abilities and a unique set of feats, and she is a massive part of the lore of the game itself, to the point that she is one of the four characters required to get the true ending of the game. Do you think she should be allowed?

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    • Of course.

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    • Okay, because a lot of people think otherwise, its one of the main reasons this thread was made in the first place

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    • And what about the others from CTB?

      They don't seem to be alike to any of their canon counterparts, or are their canon stories mentioned.

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    • Antvasima wrote: @Sera

      Would you be willing to link to appropriate relevant defining discussion threads in the Crossovers and Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles pages. That should reduce the repetition.

      ^

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    • @Weekly

      Really? That’s a double standard for someone to think that. Exclusive characters definitely can have files, nothing prevents them from having pages. Dark Kahn can have a page (if he doesn’t already) for example, but not Raiden (Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe) because unlike Dark Kahn, Raiden is literally his MK incarnation. All this does is prevent us from being over saturated with files for the same characters with little to no difference. As Ever said, there’s a reason we don’t have 50 pages for Mario. Canonicity is only an issue when people try to scale people from different continuities (like scaling Baby to DBS Goku because “GT takes place later in the timeline than Super. And yes people actually do that...like SSJ4Guy).

      @Milly

      Maybe it could work? But the problem is you’d have to redefine their powerscaling chains (if any) and use feats only in-game.

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    • They should scale to System XX, since that was the final fight.

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    • @Ant

      I can, but where exactly should I put it?

      On second thought, there’s an emergency I need to tend to, but here’s the link to the most recent discussion:

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:1331558

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    • Anyway the conclusions here seem to be to keep the rules as they are, so should we close this?

      @Sera

      Probably in notes sections at the bottom of the pages.

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    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote:
      They should scale to System XX, since that was the final fight.

      The profile needs to be redone, it directly scales from canon, Noel Mid-Godly, all PI abillities etc.

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    • Ah, ok.

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    • @Sera You have no idea how happy I am to hear you say that lol

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    • Finally, CTB profiles.

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    • So are Smash profiles also allowed then? Like Mario (Super Smash Bros)?

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    • After re-watching Blazeblue Cross Tag Battle... I agree that there is substantial evidence to conclude that she is far different than her RWBY counterpart. The question however is whether or not to scale the main characters of BBCtB  to Blazeblue canon feats... Or we somehow figure out what tier to put them at 

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    • They would scale to the feats present in BBxTag, more specifically fighting System XX

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    • She is really not that different

      And Xtag characters should scale to their own feats since iirc we aren't supposed to scale to feats from the main canon

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    • True.... But.... System XX is currently scaled to the Centralfiction God-Tiers like the Azure, Noel, and Ragna ... So shouldn't that be removed or does those incarnations within the storyline have Tier Low 2-C to 2-A feats ?

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    • Even without scaling to any other verse System XX has multiple 2-C feats and statements to go off of

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    • Xtag characters should be scaled exclusively to feats within xtag

      Including system xx

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      True.... But.... System XX is currently scaled to the Centralfiction God-Tiers like the Azure, Noel, and Ragna ... So shouldn't that be removed or does those incarnations within the storyline have Tier Low 2-C to 2-A feats ?

      That's why i said it needed to be redone, since it literally scales from canon characters and feats

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    • I had to leave for a bit so I couldn't comment again quickly.

      Suffice to say I'm not very satisfied with shunting out arguments due to tradition/precedence, and I still have much to say on the topics discussed in the previous threads linked and on this thread.

      It seems the consensus is with Sera, though, and I lack the time to really organize my arguments. I suppose this can be closed, although we should discuss profiles that should be removed.

      To end this off, Sera claiming that the rule is to prevent "30 different profiles for the same character", which is exactly what I aim to prevent. However we seem to disagree on how this can be done properly. Not every character being discussed here is an SMT Dante with any significant contributions to the plot and I indend to create seperate threads for existing profiles to be deleted.

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    • Take your time. I'm more than willing to listen. When you have the time, come back and present your argument. Hopefully I'll still be here.

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    • I am roughly in agreement with Sera and Dragon's views on the matter.

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    • Agree.

      Also, wow, these threads really do get long.

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    • Honestly, this partly intersects with the "What is and isn't a notable work of fiction" argument, like the ongoing Youtube thread. Staff and non-staff alike are already sick of how strict and "elitist" our standards are when it comes to that. It would be a very bad idea to make even stricter standards with even less flexibility about what kind of pages we can make. I feel our standards are fine as they are, but maybe need tweaking. If anyone disagrees that's fine, speak your mind and let's talk.

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    • I, imo, don't see the problems with having alternative profiles for the same character. But again, that's just me.

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    • We can have alt profiles for the same characters, but what would be the difference between CvS Ryu and MvC Ryu? Both are literally based on SF Ryu who already has a page. At that point it's just redundant. That's what I meant by "a page or key for every crossover appearance a character makes".

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    • @Sera I’m swamped for today and tomorrow, but I can put something together on Sunday. Thanks for understanding.

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    • Well, we are currently revising our Youtube standards to be less strict.

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    • So, would the Jump Force Main character be allowed since it's an original character?

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    • Yes but...ew.

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    • I don't really have a problem making Crossover Character profiles so long as they are noticably differences between them and the original and I'm not just talking about raw AP.

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    • crossover pages are so inconsistent from their originals.....they are a bad idea

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    • That's the point, they're SUPPOSED to be different from the originals

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    • Yeah, being different is a good thing, being exactly the same or just slightly different is the issue.

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    • then if a crossover character is very different then he will get a page.....otherwise not....right?? this is ok but make sure to say it is a cross over character....not cannon....because then people will get confused

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    • That is the plan.

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    • After letting this ferment for a while and now that I'm available to discuss (I have a bit of a cooldown period between today and tomorrow), I think I agree with Sera's arguments. I think I'm getting too worked up about something minor on the site.

      I'd reccomend keeping this thread open when a conclusion is reached to discuss what pages, if any, need to be removed.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Yeah, being different is a good thing, being exactly the same or just slightly different is the issue.

      So no BBCTB?

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    • No, BBxTag was agreed to be alright

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    • By that definition sera gave rwby characters from xtag wouldn't work

      They are the exact same basically.

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    • Sera literally agreed that xtag is fine, as did everyone else

      And no, theyre not the exact same, there are several distinct differences

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    • What distinct differences are there

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    • WeeklyBattles
      WeeklyBattles removed this reply because:
      22:39, May 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • And they are different how exactly? Because from what I been told they are the same thing.

      Never played the story mode, just online at the house of a friend.

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    • Differences in their personalities, different powers, different feats, different canon, different everything.

      This coming from someone who has played through the entire story mode of the game and watched it played through a second time on youtube

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    • Their personalities are almost exactly the same

      The feats and powers are just from being in the game

      So basically other than higher tier and powers they are literally rwby characters copy pasted into bb

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    • Well, I guess they could work.

      If they get added I demand my Low 2-C Solid Snake/Ike/Link because they are canon to the Smash verse!

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    • ffs Weekly we never "agreed" to allow them. YOU and a select few members did.

      Considering how this thread is going, you'd need MAJOR differences for a crossover like it to allow their individual characters in.

      And I wouldn't consider slightly different personality, minor powers (that are mostly resistances or abilities granted just from being in there crossover in the first place) to be major enough.

      Especially since, as I've stated before, you can't use one example of a character with large enough differences in order to justify every single character being allowed.

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    • And Saikou crushed my dreams of Low 2-C Solid Snake.

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    • @Saikou Cool, talk to Sera about it not me. Shes the one who agreed to it, she's the one who made the regulations that everyone agreed to.

      Seeing as the "select few members" who agreed to it are the ones who made the regulations regarding the topic, theyre the ones that everyone should listen to regarding said topic.

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    • Wait what? For Pete’s sake what’s the issue now?

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    • If the characters of BBxTB are good enough to have profiles.

      Some sides said the only difference is power (AP, hax, etc.), while the other said they are completely different characters.

      My issue is if those characters are accepted then the Smash characters should be accepted since its the same thing (same characters, different powers).

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    • I was going to try to debate this... But considering what I see coming... I'm just going to:

      131443075153-Abandon thread Jim

      ... and unfollow this.

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    • I didn’t say the individual BBxTB chars get a pass. I said maybe. What I said was Ruby Rose can definitely have a file.

      Smash Bros, is a definite no. That’s basically the same characters with little to no difference, but exclusive ones like Master Hand are okay.

      Exclusive characters = Yes

      The crossover characters themselves? = no

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    • I kinda want some examples of how Ruby is different.

      From what I remember she is practically the same character as in the show besides being in the BB setting

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    • Weekly said she is integrated into the game’s lore and plot similar to Dante in Nocturne.

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    • I thought we were going off if they were different enough and not if they are part of the story 

      If we are going off of them being part of the story then nvm she's fine

      A few people disagree with this being what allows a profile though

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    • Many people in the thread have disagreed with "Importance to the plot" being a metric for having profiles.

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    • I'm sorry but that's so superfluous for a rule. I personally don't see the problems for profiles like these.  This is basically an index.

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    • Their reason being?

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    • I thought it was supposed to be a deal between characters who are plotline relevant to a crossover specific game (BBTAG, MvC) and characters from other franchises who appear canonically (Geralt (SC), Dante (SMT)) in the plots of non-crossover games. One was okay, the other was a no.

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    • Saikou The Lewd King wrote: Arguing that characters important to the plot in a Massive Crossover would mean that nearly all characters in such games would be allowed. Which doesn't work at all. There is a difference between a cameo crossover and a mutual massive crossover like BBTG or Smash.

      That being said, I don't agree with allowing SMT Dante either though. Him being important to the plot doesn't relate to the issue with such characters in the first place. It doesn't change the fact that it's just Dante but stronger and with some new abilities.

      Saikou The Lewd King wrote: I repeat; Importance to the plot shouldn't matter. That's not why we're preventing all crossover versions in the first place. What maters is how different they are from their original versions.

      If we cared about importance to the plot, we would have allowed stuff like Anime Goku looong ago.

      Dargoo Faust wrote: I mean, us excluding them from the wiki doesn't make them stop being relevent to the plot. That's a seperate issue then them basically being the same character in the crossover and the profile being a Copy + Paste of the original profile (Geralt was literally this before I had to CRT out some abilities) with a different tier.

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    • @Agnaa

      I mean, many people also agreed to me and Sera's points as well.

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    • Now someone’s telling me there’s no actual difference between Ruby from CrossTag and her canon self, and that the plot of game was literally “characters get pulled from their worlds”. Which is it?

      @Dragon

      That’s literally the name of the game, yes.

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    • @Dragon I know, but it seemed to be forgotten in recent posts that some staff members were against that being a deciding factor, and I don't want their opinions to be left out.

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    • @Sera Its a completely separate canon from the original series

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Sera Its a completely separate canon from the original series

      Being a person who could careless if BBTAG is accepted or not, you forget to mention that BBTAG is also a crossover specific game. Her canonicity to BB, Persona or Under Night is nonexistent outside of a crossover that is not canon to those franchises. Same for Hyde, Ragna and Yu.

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    • Yes, theyre canon solely to the BBxTag series, not to their original series and not to any other series

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    • I swear on my grave, if SMT Dante shouldn’t be allowed because “it’s literally Dante with a higher tier” than DBX Goku should be deleted due to being just Goku, but Multiversal.

      What kind of argument is that?

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    • Xeno Goku doesn't act like normal goku and heroes is its own thing completely seperate from DBZ and DBS 

      Xeno Goku also isn't a crossover character from a different series thrust into the game and not changed at all. 

      Pretty sure SMT Dante should be fine though as he is pretty distinct from how Dante was portrayed prior to that time

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Yes, theyre canon solely to the BBxTag series, not to their original series and not to any other series

      And what is BBTAG? A crossover game in its rawest form.

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    • Being important to the plot wasn’t even an argument for crossovers but appearances in other games like Akuma in Tekken 7, Geralt in SCVI, etc. That’s where importance to the plot matters.

      Crossovers are a much different beast. Only exclusive characters can have files for those.

      Is that clearer?

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    • @Dragon You point being?

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    • Characters who appear in a crossover game are not allowed...This is no different than MvC Ryu or Jump Force Jotaro.

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    • Ok, can't believe I'm coming back for this but whatever.

      @Sera to clear the things up, yes the ENTIRE plot of BBTAG is the characters from their own worlds are thrown into this alternate world where this giant robot makes them fight each other, and they team up to beat it so they can go back home.

      As for difference in SKILLS of all things, this has got to be the most asinine thing I've seen in terms of justifying a difference between characters. Coming from someone who watched at the very least the first 5 volumes of RWBY and binged through the entire BB series, there's NO difference in skillset AND Personality.

      The BBTAG characters aside from System XX checks off none of the requirements they need to have their own profile.

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    • Except unlike jump force, the characters in XTag are different from their canon counterparts

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    • A character acting the same is also irrelevant. No duh they are going to usually have the character act like themselves otherwise the fans would complain. Imagine Akuma in Tekken 7 but he didn’t act like Akuma, instead he was a happy-go-lucky guy that eats cornflakes every morning. That’s not Akuma at all. Since when did personality matter here? What matters is continuity and Dante is part of the SMT timeline, therefore he is canon.

      Granted in the definitive version of Nocturne, Dante was replaced with Raidou. But that is another story.

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    • @Sera THANK YOU

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    • Sera EX wrote: A character acting the same is also irrelevant. No duh they are going to usually have the character act like themselves otherwise the fans would complain. Imagine Akuma in Tekken 7 but he didn’t act like Akuma, instead he was a happy-go-lucky guy that eats cornflakes every morning. That’s not Akuma at all. Since when did personality matter here? What matters is continuity and Dante is part of the SMT timeline, therefore he is canon.

      Granted in the definitive version of Nocturne, Dante was replaced with Raidou. But that is another story.

      If personality, plot relevance, AP, and abilities don't matter, then what does matter for getting a crossover profile?

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    • I agree with glass

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    • @Sera the characters in Cross Tag have the same relevancy as the Smash Bros character in Brawl. The story is literally the same thing, only have Blazblue stuff rather than Smash Bros stuff and it's practically the same.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Except unlike jump force, the characters in XTag are different from their canon counterparts

      From what I've seen...not really....Can you give us explicit details on how Ruby is different?

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    • Agnaa wrote:

      Its just so we can wank them :v

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    • Dragonmasterxyz
      Dragonmasterxyz removed this reply because:
      03:22, May 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • @Dragon the first time you ever see Ruby she leads with trying to kill Ragna just because she doesnt who he is or where she is. That is a direct 180 from her friendly personality.

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    • Exclusiveness. I’ve said it like 10 times.

      Dark Kahn, Cyber Akuma, Ultron-Sigma, etc.

      A perfect example of this is the Final Fantasy Dissidia games. exclusive characters like Cosmos get a file, but not Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy Dissidia) because he’s literally the exact same Leon from FF VIII. However Leon from Kingdom Hearts can have a file, same with Cloud and Yuffie in their KH incarnations.

      If Weekly is suggesting the characters in BBxTB are different in the same manner that the FF characters in KH are different, they can have files, people.

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    • Oh yeah i completely forgot about FF characters in KH

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    • @Sera Weekly's lying. They are the EXACT SAME person. They're literally thrown into the world to fight from their own world. THAT is the whole plot of Cross Tag

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Dragon the first time you ever see Ruby she leads with trying to kill Ragna just because she doesnt who he is or where she is. That is a direct 180 from her friendly personality.

      False. The first thing she tries to do is take out Ragna to get his crystal. Why?  To get back to her world.  That's literally the main plot of the game.

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    • @Dragon Not false in any way shape or form

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    • @Glass Wow okay...real nice...

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    • WeeklyBattles
      WeeklyBattles removed this reply because:
      03:25, May 4, 2019
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    • Thing is, I don’t think Weekly is denying Smash characters having files, so mentioning Smash to debunk his argument is weird.

      And come on Glass, don’t go saying people are lying. “He’s misinformed” would be better.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Dragon Not false in any way shape or form

      It really is. She tried to get a jump on Ragna to get his crystal and return home. System XX gave the rules at the start and explained that's how they were to get home. So yes, it's false.

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    • Plus Ruby trying to kill people just to get something in an of itself is severely out of character for her

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    • @Sera I've made some profiles for characters involved in a crossover between Monogatari and Magia Record. They're essentially characters originally from Monogatari in a parallel world where they made a wish to Kyubey before their character arc got resolved in the original series, giving them different designs and magical girl powers.

      They're far from carbon copies of the original characters, but they're not quite original as much of their backstory is from the original series, only diverging partway through the backstory. They're also not quite exclusives.

      EDIT: My bad, I didn't properly read your part about FF characters in KH, sounds like my example would probably be fine then.

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    • @Weekly Right, and this totally didn't happen for Ruby

      @Sera he's claimed to watch and played Cross Tag. Yet he's getting like everything wrong about the game. Either he hasn't played it, or he has and is twisting the truth.

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    • She's not trying to kill them though? Just defeat them in a team battle. Knock them out, make them faint, incapacitate them, any ot those terms to get the crystal to get back home as that is notably the only way they can get home to their knowledge at the time. Only people who can be argued to be trying to kill people in game is Linne, Jin, Hakumen, Carmine (arguably) and Azrael (All in character).

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    • Yeah no im not misinformed ive seen the entirety of the story twice over

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    • or anyone who canonically likes to kill.

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    • @Dragon Yes because the logical way to knock someone out is by trying to cut them in half

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    • @Agnaa

      That’s fine. Especially since being in a parallel world can mean separate continuity easily.

      @Glass

      Then that’d fall more in line with head canon than lying. Plus Weekly isn’t the only one who thinks that. Apparently others do too and that’s why this thread exists in the first place.

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    • @Sera then it shouldn't be counted even IF it is headcanon.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: @Dragon Yes because the logical way to knock someone out is by trying to cut them in half

      But isn't she from a world where everyone has some form of shield and the common tactics fighting others are just putting down said shiel using lethal attacks?

      Pretty sure thats normal for her.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Dragon Yes because the logical way to knock someone out is by trying to cut them in half

      You mean like literally everyone who uses a bladed weapon in BBTAG which is like 97% of the Story Mode cast? Not a good argument when the opponents are all superhuman in their own right,

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    • @Tony Its entirely possible to knock people out through their aura, its been done in the show before. Ruby did not try to do that, she went blade first to try to actively attack Ragna.

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    • It is conceptually impossible for someone to be lying if they state their honest opinion.

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    • What I’m saying is if others think so too, then that’s for you guys to discuss. I don’t dabble in Ruby or BlazBlue so I wouldn’t know (though I do heavily dabble in Persona).

      Also thank you Medeus. Someone give this man a medal. One of the most reasonable people on this site.

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    • I don't remember someone being KO'd thought their aura, what I remember is people losing all their aura then getting KO'd.

      Don't quote me on that, stopped watching the series some time ago so things could've changed.

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    • DarkDragon for president

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Tony Its entirely possible to knock people out through their aura, its been done in the show before. Ruby did not try to do that, she went blade first to try to actively attack Ragna.

      Because her blade is her main weapon? Are you telling me Ruby has never used her blade on a human opponent before?

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    • @Tony Yang vs Neo

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    • Let's chill, alright? Calm down a bit.

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    • Let me end that right now. Out of character moments also are irrelevant.

      Anyone remember Playstation All Stars? Yeah, the PS Smash wannabe. Remember Heihachi’s rival(s)? Yeah...completely ooc for him but that doesn’t mean that was a different Heihachi.

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    • and again, for the 3rd time, the story is literally the same thing as the Smash Bros Brawl story. Where the characters are thrown from their original world to an alternate one to fight some random baddie. 

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    • @Dragon Never to try to kill them, hell even in the fight against Mercury and Emerald where they were actively trying to kill her she was trying to ask them to stop fighting because she didnt want to hurt them

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    • Anyway, it’s afternoon and I got stuff to do so I’ll be going for now.

      Please don’t take leave of your senses any time soon. We’re all good here. No one has ill-intent but the trolls. So as Promberry said, let’s chill.

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    • @Weekly and she was alright killing some humans that were on the train in Volume 2 and Torchwick's goons in Volume 1. So again, that's moot.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      @Dragon Never to try to kill them, hell even in the fight against Mercury and Emerald where they were actively trying to kill her she was trying to ask them to stop fighting because she didnt want to hurt them

      Ruby was not trying to kill Ragna....

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote: @Tony Yang vs Neo

      Oh ffs, how could I forget my waifu.

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    • You know what, let's stop for now okay. This is turning to clusterfuck. So here's my idea. Let's create a new thread in Staff discussion board then close this and continue on that thread instead. We can refresh ourselves that way and we can know what the hell is going on.

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    • I agree with Shiro.

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    • I can make one if you guys allow me. I also want to say some personal opinions for this as well.

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    • Why does the thread need to be Staff Only? Non-staff weren't part of any of the hostility here...

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    • Aren't we always doing this sort of thing in SD thread? I can make it for General Discussion if people asked for it.

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    • The point of making it staff-only is to try to lessen disruption from non-staff users, if they're not being an issue there's not much point making it staff-only.

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    • ehh, Agnaa has a point. We might as well remake this thread to make it NOT a clusterfuck.

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    • I agree with Promestein, Sera, and Medeus. Let's avoid any unnecessary accusations please.

      Anyway, given that there is a new thread now, should we close this?

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    • Yes, this thread has derailed off the tracks a long time ago. Might as well close it and start fresh

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    • Okay.

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