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  • A battle to decide the strongest Low 2-C character that appears in Smash Bros (Excluding the origional characters). Simon is just a weaker Richter and Rosalina, well, I really don't know what's going on with her. If people tell me she's powerful I guess she can fight the winner of this.

    Rules: Speed Equalized. This is Low 2-C Richter and End-Game Ren. Ren dosn't have the Omnipotent Orb. Otherwise SBA.

    Ultimate Richter Belmont
    Jokerrenamamiya
    The strongest of the Belmont clan exept for Julius but nobody cares about him

    The leader of the Phantom Thieves: 6 (Solacis, Litentric Teon, Yohnny, ABoogieYesSir, Ionliosite, DarkGrath)

    Inconclusive: 1 (Stillwinston)

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    • Man i don't know about this

      Both are really haxx and also resist to alot of each other haxx too.

      The only that may give someone between both of them the edge hear is AP

      and also i don't know about that too. Both are stronger then Baseline that for sure.

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    • Wooooo boy. 

      Okay well Time manip is resisted by Joker. Though a lot of stuff is resisted by both. Joker has attack reflection, not sure how it stacks up to a whip that negates regen up to Mid Godly though. Also Joker doesn't resist Soul Manip, which is what the Vampire Killer employs a lot. 

      I guess for now I'll lean on Incon, either Richter hits and destroys Joker's soul or Joker blasts with Almighty GG.

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    • Incon fra

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    • I'd argue that since Joker's soul is where his Personas reside while they aren't out, any attempt at Soul Manip just ends with Joker's composite Personas reflecting/absorbing/nulling whatever the Vampire Killer dishes out.

      Omnipotent Orb nulls everything Richter can throw at Joker unless he has some form of Resistance Negation. That thing's more bullshit than the old definition of Servant Immunity from the Fate series, so it's probably a bad idea allowing all items.

      Although without it, the Vampire Killer still needs to hit Joker for the Soul Manip to work, right? Joker can just see the whip coming, put up Tetrakarn, and the thing gets reflected back at Richter. Satanael nullifies Holy magic, too.

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    • Solacis wrote:
      I'd argue that since Joker's soul is where his Personas reside while they aren't out, any attempt at Soul Manip just ends with Joker's composite Personas reflecting/absorbing/nulling whatever the Vampire Killer dishes out.

      Omnipotent Orb nulls everything Richter can throw at Joker unless he has some form of Resistance Negation. That thing's more bullshit than the old definition of Servant Immunity from the Fate series, so it's probably a bad idea allowing all items.

      Although without it, the Vampire Killer still needs to hit Joker for the Soul Manip to work, right? Joker can just see the whip coming, put up Tetrakarn, and the thing gets reflected back at Richter. Satanael nullifies Holy magic, too.

      Hmmmm look good

      Can we get more people ot talk here?

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    • Solacis wrote:

      Although without it, the Vampire Killer still needs to hit Joker for the Soul Manip to work, right? Joker can just see the whip coming, put up Tetrakarn, and the thing gets reflected back at Richter. Satanael nullifies Holy magic, too.

      Nope. Richter can damage souls with literally everything, so if he wanted to he could just open with Hydro storm and end the fight right then and there

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    • Based on his fight with Alucard, Richter opens with his hax and really likes using it.

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    • LightinAnt wrote:

      Nope. Richter can damage souls with literally everything, so if he wanted to he could just open with Hydro storm and end the fight right then and there

      One word. Makarakarn.

      Hydro Storm is started, Joker realizes the Orb won't null it, he puts up Makarakarn and the whole thing get sent straight back at Richter. Joker can fight entire battles without attacking once because of Tetrakarn and Makarakarn, as long as he knows which one to use. And seeing as Hydro Storm is the only thing Richter has that can even hurt Ren, he's going to see it coming.

      Meanwhile, Ren only needs to land one Makajama to cripple Richter's fighting ability. Makajama prevents the use of any magic, and Richter doesn't resist Power Null. At that point, he's won.

      Give my vote to Joker.

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    • You do know that Richter resists Holy and soul hax right? Also he doesn't lead with Hydro storm that was just an example, he actually leads with Grand Cross which does aoe damage, which also makes him invincible in its duration i don't see how reflecting it would affect him at all

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    • Also from your description the attack reflection has to be activated, so Richter could just kill him before he uses it, which he does with Grand Cross

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    • I will say I don't think Richter getting his whip reflected is gonna do much to him, doesn't vampire killer count as a holy weapon?

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    • Makarakarn is an instant activation. Every one of Ren's spells are instant. He reflects Hydro Storm with a thought.

      "You do know that Richter resists Holy and soul hax right?"

      Yeah, so? Hydro Storm is the only thing that can hurt Ren because it's water-attributed. Everything else on Richter's page is nulled by the Omnipotent Orb. Grand Cross is Holy and Light, both of which are nulled. Flame Whip? Nulled. Thousand Edge? Nulled.

      Water is the only thing outside of Ren's affinities, and even then, the only reason I'm letting it bypass the Omnipotent Orb is because technically, there aren't any water-based attacks in Persona 5. If I equalized the effects of the Omnipotent Orb with Persona 2, then even that wouldn't work, because P2 has water spells. At that point, you need Resistance Negation to even affect him.

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    • Nulling it doesn't matter since he can't null soul hax, also Richter can get ressurected by Maria and amped, only a matter of time till he hits and kills Joker

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    • I'm still a bit skeptical if attack reflect would work on an attack that can negate regen to such a high level tbh

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    • Shouldn't water be resisted since ren can resist ice based attacks with the orb anyway

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    • @LightinAnt

      The soul hax is tied to the attack. If the attack is nulled, the soul hax does no damage. Persona affinities have shown that regardless of the secondary effect of an attack, if the main attack is nulled/absorbed/repelled then the secondary effect is negated alongside the main attack. This includes hax like Power Null.

      @Stillwinston

      Regeneration negation has no bearing on attack reflection. You're making no sense.

      @Paul

      Water and Ice are treated separately in previous games iirc.

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    • @Stillwinston

      Regeneration negation has no bearing on attack reflection. You're making no sense.

      I meant the attack must be pretty strong and the reflect may not stand up to it, but guess regen negate ain't tied to AP. Still leaning on Incon atm

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    • Richter gets ressurected and amped by Maria and also become invincible by the way, the Vampire Killer can hurt abstracts it should work on Joker

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    • Also, I just looked it up and realized I'm stupid.

      Richter's soul hax is literally pointless in this match. The whole "From the sea of thy soul, I cometh" crap completely slipped my mind. Personas are legit just the user's soul. Joker's resistance to Soul Manip scales to his durability. So really, he can take Richter's attacks just as easily as he would any other.

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    • Joker can't put Richter down though, he just gets rezzed and becomes invincible

      Also the soul resistance isn't on their profile 

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    • Solacis
      Solacis removed this reply because:
      replaced
      16:30, May 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • >Not using anime style art Ritcher and Atlus art Ren

      -10/10 thread :v

      Joke aside i'm learning to incon fra right now

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    • Attack Reflection is only 20% chance so it's not really useful in this fight.

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    • Joker can:

      - Use Makajama to seal Richter's magical abilities, then knock him out.

      - Put him to sleep with Dormina then promptly knock him out while he's asleep for an instant K.O.

      - Convince him to let his guard down with his superhuman charisma (bordering on mind control) before catching him off-guard with any of the above.

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    • It's just type 4 through Maria, also Richter resists sleep hax

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      Richter gets ressurected and amped by Maria and also become invincible by the way, the Vampire Killer can hurt abstracts it should work on Joker

      1. Not on Richter's profile.

      2. Outside help is a no-no.

      3. Joker can hurt abstracts with his normal attacks. Yaldabaoth was an abstract. Yaldabaoth also could not hurt Omnipotent Orb Joker without using Resistance Negation.

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    • It's type 4, Maria doesn't help him with attacking the enemy, also Richters magic is way stronger especially Grand cross which he leads with, what does Joker lead with?

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      It's just type 4 through Maria, also Richter resists sleep hax

      No outside help is allowed in VSmatches. Are you new or something?

      Richter does not resist sleep hax. He resists mind hax. Joker's sleep hax is physical.

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    • He resists it, through the succubi enemy who can sleep and dream manip and Olrox, type 4 is not outside help

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      It's type 4, Maria doesn't help him with attacking the enemy, also Richters magic is way stronger especially Grand cross which he leads with, what does Joker lead with?
      LightinAnt wrote:He resists it, through the succubi enemy who can sleep and dream manip, type 4 is not outside help

      Joker leads with whatever works. He's an RPG protagonist. He doesn't have an in-character move. Also, I've already said it several times that Joker nulls everything except maybe Hydro Storm.

      Type 4 is the ability to resurrect yourself. If someone else does it for you, it's not Immortality, it's outside help.

      Also, again, the stuff you're listing is not on the profile. Make a CRT. Until the changes are accepted, your claims will be taken with a grain of salt.

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    • Jokers soul resistance is not on his profile either, i'd advise you to do the same

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    • The soul resistance isn't even integral to Joker's win condition. Joker power nulls and kills. If not, he power nulls, sleep haxes, and then kills. That's literally it.

      That said, I have, in fact, already brought up Joker's resistance in a CRT. I'm now only waiting for replies.

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    • Joker is quite versatile with his attacks, but Richter has a strong arsenal of weapons like, oh i don't know the whip. But seriously, I am going to say Richter wins this fight, but barely.

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    • Crocodile The SeaWing wrote:
      the whip.

      I have literally just explained why this doesn't work. I have literally said that practically nothing in Richter's arsenal works.

      I sometimes feel like people have forgotten how to read.

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    • How can Joker null physical attacks? Also apparently there is only a 20% chance of reflection

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    • okay but you don't have to be like a fookin' skunk carcass

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    • The Omnipotent Orb is an item in Joker's Arsenal that nullifies all attacks in his game with the acception of "Amighty Attacks".

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    • So what counts as an almighty attack?

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    • @Crocodile

      Now you're just being rude. Can you blame me for being a tad frustrated when I've repeated myself no less than 3 times about such a simple concept?

      @LightinAnt

      The Omnipotent Orb nulls physical, fire, ice, wind, electricity, radiation, curse, darkness, death, light and holy manipulation. Other accessories also null all ailments. Almighty attacks are attacks that inherently bypass resistances. That is, Resistance Negation.

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      Also apparently there is only a 20% chance of reflection

      If we are talking about aliments, then it's far from being as low as 20% may seem:

      Aliments, both inflicting them and receiving them depends on the Luck Stat, which at this point in the game should be very high for Ren. The 20% is influenced by the Luck Stat too.

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    • Things rarely seem to miss in game anyway. In particular things that they do to themselves. I've never seen a self-buff, heal spell, or reflection spell miss.

      That said, I'm going to go with Joker here. If Richter has type 4 immortality, that should be allowed, as it's technically not outside help and should be considered as one of Richter's abilities. It's like removing the immortality of a character whom is constantly healed by their goddess because outside help isn't allowed. It's integral to the character and a property of how they fight, so, iirc, it should be fine.

      That being said, Ren has other methods of incaping. Physically putting Richter to sleep, knocking him unconscious, possibly amnesia or mind control, immobilizing him, debuffing him to where he can't really hurt Joker, etc. Omnipotent Orb basically nullifies Richter's arsenal here, so Joker should take this with moderate difficulty, as he'll have to choose a correct method around Richter's type 4.

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    • Litentric Teon wrote:
      Things rarely seem to miss in game anyway. In particular things that they do to themselves. I've never seen a self-buff, heal spell, or reflection spell miss.

      That said, I'm going to go with Joker here. If Richter has type 4 immortality, that should be allowed, as it's technically not outside help and should be considered as one of Richter's abilities. It's like removing the immortality of a character whom is constantly healed by their goddess because outside help isn't allowed. It's integral to the character and a property of how they fight, so, iirc, it should be fine.

      That being said, Ren has other methods of incaping. Physically putting Richter to sleep, knocking him unconscious, possibly amnesia or mind control, immobilizing him, debuffing him to where he can't really hurt Joker, etc. Omnipotent Orb basically nullifies Richter's arsenal here, so Joker should take this with moderate difficulty, as he'll have to choose a correct method around Richter's type 4.

      Richter's supposed Type 4 isn't on his profile. Also, if Richter can be resurrected by Maria, Morgana can be resurrected by Joker via Samarecarm. Unless it's a passive, automatic resurrection, it counts as outside help. Characters that get resurrected by their gods/goddesses as a part of their characters have been bestowed that ability by said gods or goddesses.

      The definition of Type 4 goes:

      4: Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.

      It explicitly defines Type 4 as the ability to resurrect one's own self, not the ability to receive resurrection from outside forces. There's a reason we don't give Satou Kazuma type 4.

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    • @Solacis

      I was under the impression that type 4 was referring to immortality due to some god's influence on said character. That was simply my mistake as the conversation above seems to imply that. Characters that are resurrected by their gods each time they die don't necessarily have the ability of resurrection. The gods/goddesses could simply do it each time they die. As it's part of their character, it would presumably be allowed. But if this is not the case, then I'd assume there's a thread discussing such, as I do recall a type of immortality from godhood.

      The example with Morgana is false equivalence here as neither Joker nor Morgana are reliant on the other. And neither is a characteristic of the way the other battles. Unlike in the example of some higher god reviving a specific character every time they die.

      Regardless, since Richter's immortality isn't what I believed it to be, and the example with Morgana is irrelevant here, none of that really matters, nor does it influence my vote since I was voting for Joker in the first place. This feels like semantics since we already agree on the outcome of the match.

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    • Let's me get my vote back

      This look good.

      (Eating popcorn.pic)

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    • joker fra

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    • Joka FRA

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    • Joker FRA

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    • If Joker nulls every single thing that Richter can do, how is this not a stomp?

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    • That's why I said to disable optional equipment. That way Joker has to worry about choosing the right Persona to defend against specific attacks, instead of just having a blanket null on everything coming his way.

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    • I still stand by my choice.

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    • Alright. I'll remove optional equiptment.

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    • Now the question is, can Richter take out Ren before he gets taken down himself?

      Ren has full liberties to attack whenever since he has Almighty attacks and his bullets passively ignore resistances. Meanwhile, Richter has to mix up his attacks frequently enough that Ren doesn't just put up Tetra- or Makarakarn, or switch to a Persona that resists/nulls/absorbs/reflects the incoming attack type.

      Richter still has a chance to win, but it'll be tough. Once again, Hydro Storm is Richter's best shot at damaging Ren, since it's outside of Ren's affinities, and if he catches Ren off-guard he can let it loose before he can put up Makarakarn.

      That said, I'm still voting for Ren, since his win condition is much more reliable, plus he has the Third Eye which amps his reaction time.

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    • I'm also going to stick with Ren, for Solacis' reasons.

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    • Ren 6-7/10 fra i guess

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    • Nah im voted Ren Fra,

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    • Ren FRA

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    • Joker FRA.

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    • Ren: 6 (Tonipelimies, ABoogieYesSir, Jimboydejuan12, Hizack123, Litentric Teon, Solacis)

      Richter: 1 (Crocodile The SeaWing)

      1 more vote until grace.

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    • I would like to mention that Richter would resist power null and attack reflection through my CRT and that he can in fact power null himself

      Also the Vampire killer is able to weaken ones powers and soul through its sheer presence alone

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      I would like to mention that Richter would resist power null and attack reflection through my CRT and that he can in fact power null himself

      Also the Vampire killer is able to weaken ones powers and soul through its sheer presence alone

      Powernull himself.....that sound kind of useless

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    • He means he himself gets powernull.

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    • Bump

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    • I think I'm going for Joker FRA.

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    • Joker

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    • Joker FRA.

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    • >People vote when i literally say that Richter still is going through revisions

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    • So, revisions done yet or nah?

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    • I'm late, but the stuff he mentioned that'd be added after the revision aren't on Richter's profile yet.

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    • The revisions are done now.

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    • Bump

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    • Alright, what has been changed that would directly affect the result of this match?

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    • Richter has power nullification and resists power nullification and attack reflection now.

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    • So Hydro Vortex may have become a legitimate threat now, since Makarakarn can't reflect anymore. Although, Persona attack reflection has shown that if it's not reflected, it still gets nulled. Power null also doesn't stop Joker from switching his Personas, so his passive skills and elemental resistances are still in effect. He just has to use melee and gun attacks instead, the latter of which function like Almighty attacks.

      Vote is still on Joker, for me.

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    • Bump

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    • Joker FRA

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    • Joker FRA.

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    • Whatever, Joker FRA.

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    • Ren defeats Rich and becomes rich FRA

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    • Joker FRA

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    • One vote left

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    • Joker FRA

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    • Hizack123
      Hizack123 removed this reply because:
      Already vote
      03:01, July 17, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • A FANDOM user
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