FANDOM


  • DarkDragonMedeus
    DarkDragonMedeus closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    02:12, April 26, 2019

    Before I start, I know that this may have been discussed a number of times in the past but I wasn’t around most of the time. This isn’t a 2-C upgrade, so please everyone be civilized and handle this appropriately. Thank you.

    In DBS you hear a lot of characters talk about or mention the destruction of a universe. These statements are as literal as you get. Statements such as:

    Elder Kaioshin: "Beerus-sama's actions are no different from the workings of nature. We can do nothing but wait until the storm passes. He might not settle for a planet or two this time...The entire universe might disappear!"

    Gowasu: Zamasu... might be trying to become the universe.

    Kefla: I feel like I could blow away an entire universe in one shot...

    Whis: Omni-King can destroy anything he wants, in an instant. Such as, evil people, obviously. Or a planet, a galaxy, or an entire universe.

    We know that these statements are all directly the same type of statement and mean the same thing. For example: Kefla is low 2-C and after powering up she feels like she’s strong enough to destroy the universe. Zamasu was stated to merge with the universe where nobody remotely says or even implies space time. Instead we learn that Zamasu was becoming time and space itself. This shows that Gowasu means time and space when he’s talking about the universe and it would logically be the same for everyone else.

    Zeno is stated to destroy an “entire” universe. We know that would mean the destruction of all the time and space because he’s capable of doing so and Whis said “entire”. It’s the same thing Elder Kai said about Beerus “the entire universe might disappear!”

    IIRC Elder Kai thought that Beerus was going full power against ssg Goku. That same Beerus who was stated to destroy the “entire” universe. Not only that but it was stated that Beerus and Goku were gonna annihilate the universe in there clash, not just destroy. They never use the word annihilation when referring to casual Zeno so this likely means that clash was stronger than we think. It’s also just a supporting feat. Goku punched out a blast potent enough to destroy the universe. Just because a feat looks like it’s 3-A doesn’t mean it is. For example, the Nipponverse had characters that destroyed the universe with a Big Bang like attack but they were low 2-C (I know they’re 2-A now, I’m just giving an example).

    Here’s why 3-A wouldn’t make sense narratively though.

    Beerus after waking up seeks the Super Saiyan God. Beerus seeks this being because he’s looking for a formidable opponent. Beerus then completely dominates the Z Fighters one by one starting from Goku all the way to Vegeta. They are nothing but mere ants compared to him. Not even a fusion or an amped Goku was enough because Beerus is literally infinitely stronger than anyone there. However Goku is able to unlock the secret to God Ki and fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan God. Only the strongest Deities can wield God Ki and it’s enough for Lord Beerus fighting at his casual level because it’s in his realm of power.

    Jumping from 4-B to 3-A literally makes to difference to a character that’s tier 2. Why would God Ki of all things make Goku strong but still Infinitely weaker than Beerus? That’s really dumb because it would make absolute 0 differences in power. Whenever Whis compared Beerus to Goku and Vegeta, he always gave them a benchmark: like the castle and tree analogy, which is a finite comparison.

    It makes much more sense that Beerus was holding back at an arbitrary percentage than literal infinity. I mean look at the battle of gods fight, he’s actually putting in some type of effort while suppressed. Even in the base Goku vs Monaka Beerus fight, Beerus is really enjoying himself because he’s fighting someone without one shoting them. Even when Goku and Vegeta got stronger Beerus says:

    Beerus: You guys got stronger, so how about it? Wanna fight me?

    So you can basically say Goku is 3D while Beerus is 4D, Goku can’t reach that power on his own and isn’t enough to phase Beerus, so he gets God Ki. This makes him 4D so he’s in Beerus’ realm of power but not on his level. It’s as basic as that.

    Hell there’s even evidence in the first Goku vs Jiren fight. Before Jiren fought Goku, he powered up in his suppressed state, this suppressed state is superior to Mugen Zamasu obviously. Jiren is ready to fight Goku using low 2-C energy. Goku make suppressed Jiren flinch several times. Ssj2 Goku slightly tilted his head with a kick. Jiren actually had to block blows from ssg Goku. SSB Goku forced Jiren to fight and defend himself by blocking. Jiren was even concerned that Goku’s charged Kamehameha would harm him so he dodges it. Jiren output more power against the spirit bomb in their clash. First Jiren uses one hand. Then Goku powers up, this makes Jiren use both of his hands ( BEHOLD THE POWER OF TWO HANDS!) Goku powers up again, Jiren prepares himself then puts his energy in a glare. If suppressed Jiren was infinitely stronger than Goku then Jiren would only have to breathe to finish off Goku and the transformations wouldn’t make a difference. Jiren may have stronger than Goku, but he was still actually showing some kind of effort. Goku did noticeably well while fighting Jiren, even surviving all his attacks.

    Some of you might be thinking why is this important? Well it’s because Goku before the tournament of power never had any major increases in strength. It could be used for backwards scaling to reach low 2-C. Also why would Jiren be infinitely weaker after his one fight with Goku even though while suppressed he’s stronger than Zamasu. Jiren was only slightly weakened and Golden Frieza along with 17 were able to keep up and damage Jiren. For god sake even ssj2 Goku can move Jiren’s head.


    Some other things I want to point out are:

    • Gowasu says Goku’s power is in the same realm as Beerus’
    • The Revival of F website said that Frieza had gotten infinitely stronger than he was on Namek.
    • Whis says that Goku was on the lowest level of Godly power, which is way stronger than any Kai, so Whis implying a God of Destruction makes a lot more sense.
    • Beerus was actually concerned about Goku catching up when he first saw SSGSSKKx10
    • Goku and Hit scare the hell out of Champa after they here that they were just being used in the tournament.
    • Base Toppo being a GoD candidate.
    • Characters like Hit, 17, and Vegeta doing so well against Jiren.
    • Goku catching up and adapting so fast to Jiren.
    • Android 17 able to damage Jiren.
    • God of Destruction Jerez states blue Goku rivals the power of the Gods.
    • Base Frieza being able to kick down Jiren.
    • Frieza being able to overpower Sidra’s hakai with high difficulty.
    • Sidra thinking killing off Frieza would be hard.
    • Base Goku doing so well against Broly.

    And possibly even more, but you get the point.


    - CONCLUSION Low 2-C is overall consistent since God Ki puts you in the realm of the power of the Gods. The word “universe” in DBS only has one meaning. There are times when they say universe and it implies space and time. No other statements imply the matter in the universe. Low-balling every other statement to 3-A is an arbitrary assumption when we know universe in DBS has one meaning and on more than one instance they meant space and time. Even the modern term of universe in Japan is time and space, 3-A and low 2-C aren’t differentiated in DBS so it’s sensible and again, consistent.

    My proposal is upgrading all 3-A characters to low 2-C. Don’t worry I’ll do the downgrades after this thread is concluded.

      Loading editor
    • Bump

        Loading editor
    • Nani?

        Loading editor
    • Personaly i agree, it sound more in line with what the anime wanted to show and work better with how Japan define 'universe'.

      I mean, it wouldn't make sense how they insist on SSJG being a new realm of power when it's a latter power boost not even really lampshaded much that make Goku infinitely more powerful

        Loading editor
    • Bruh.

        Loading editor
    • That is true

        Loading editor
    • Huh... this seems interesting, but is the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C literally infinite? I'm not used to these terms at all, and this CRT relies on that.

        Loading editor
    • @Calaca the difference between 3-A and low 2-C is infinite.

        Loading editor
    • Bump.

        Loading editor
    • Well, according to our system, that makes a difference between space and space-time, the difference is treated as infinite, but Dragon Ball does not subscribe to this system, and many other fictions don't either, so we should probably revise it eventually.

        Loading editor
    • Anyway, you should probably ask the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page, along with the people in the Knowledgeable Members List, to comment here.

        Loading editor
    • Ok

        Loading editor
    • I am fine the OP. It always seems weird to me that Beerus holded back to infinity. Also, this statement from the Episode 12 at 7:09 min can be supporting evidence as well for ealry Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Oh yeah I did forget about the void statement, but everyone keeps saying they meant vacuum. I don’t know where they get this from.

        Loading editor
    • I think this is fine this would apply to vegeta and frieza who fought broly as well

        Loading editor
    • The problem is that the characters lower ranked than 3-A would also be affected by this type of "he shouldn't hold back this much" scaling.

      As such, until we revise our system, it seems safer to keep the current character statistics, even though they are not equivalent to how the Dragon Ball setting works.

        Loading editor
    • I agree too.

      Antvasima wrote: The problem is that the characters lower ranked than 3-A would also be affected by this type of "he shouldn't hold back this much" scaling.

      As such, until we revise our system, it seems safer to keep the current character statistics, even though they are not equivalent to how the Dragon Ball setting works.

      I disagree with the bold since here DB is very popular and its pages must go with how the anime works.

        Loading editor
    • Well, again, then we would end up with everybody in the tournament of power scaling to Low 2-C as well by using the same logic.

      We have discussed this subject extremely extensively for many hundred posts previously, and reached the current statistics consensus. We cannot change it without a massive amount of favourable staff input, and it doesn't remotely seem worth the effort. Sorry.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      Oh yeah I did forget about the void statement, but everyone keeps saying they meant vacuum. I don’t know where they get this from.

      Universe feat can be ambiguous so they can be low-balled during evaluation especially f there no other Low 2-C at the time which was the case in the past. I am not sure why space-time is not included in the void when Goku and Beerus shockwaves were to affect/bend spacetime

        Loading editor
    • @Ant you shouldnt bother discussing dbs in this thread, you are too overworked for this. You'd better off just asking one of the dbs admins.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. I will unsubscribe then. You can ask the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here instead.

        Loading editor
    • I agree to this. Always thought they were Low 2-C



      EDIT: wait arent we still revising the 3-A and above?

        Loading editor
    • BlackeJan wrote:

      EDIT: wait arent we still revising the 3-A and above?

      It is paused because we were waiting for Sera and if she regretably leaved the discussion for good, then we wil concluded it.

        Loading editor
    • It’s not only about holding back infinity. It’s also the way they use the word universe. Every time they were specific they would refer to time and space, never matter because that’s an assumption.

        Loading editor
    • Before I take my stance, I would like to point out quite a few things. First off, it is true that Dragon Ball doesn't distinguish 3-A and Low 2-C as an infinite gap; but at the same time, no verse actually does. AssaltWaffle even mentioned on another thread that it's actually a myth that Low 2-C is infinite; an infinite amount of force/raw power can't destroy space-time, but he said it's possible for those with finite energy to do it. It's more uncalcable dimensional distortions that destroy space-time rather than Joules of energy.

      That being said, SSG Goku and a held back Beerus clashing it merely says destroy every celestial object in the universe rather than all time in space; though, it would also include the planets and stars contained in the pocket realities. Infinite Zamasu is the only one that actually merged with space-time and is "4-D" himself; others are 3-D beings with "4-D" degrees of power. I put 4-D in quotes, because while we aren't getting rid of the tiering system in the traditional sense, it's just it's based on very specific definition of dimensions which never had a consistent definition Real world or fiction. Like being 11-Dimensional in terms of Spatial dimensions alone won't make someone High 1-C; instead, High 1-C is better worded as 8 degrees of Cosmic megastructure dimensions.

      And I honestly don't think we'll be changing the ratings for DBS tbh, but I'll leave it open for more input.

        Loading editor
    • It's not really a myth given that it's litteraly how we define it though, if it isn't accurate then we'd need to change the description of the tier.

        Loading editor
    • That’s not the main point though. It’s what they refer to when they mean universe. They’re almost never specific when they say universe. We assume it’s the matter because before we didn’t know. However whenever there were more than one occasion when they meant space time when they were talking about the universe. DB only has one meaning to universal destruction. Even Buuhan was destroying the universe via space time. And like I mentioned before, universe in Japan means time and space.

        Loading editor
    • Buuhan destroying Space-Time was non-canon/Anime Filler. And I already mentioned that SSG Vs Beerus literally does describe destruction as just being all matter in the universe. The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realms due contain planets and stars yes, and those are included; but still no mention of space-time. There are other statements about Universe yes, and Beerus appearing worried that Goku with SSBKKx10 might catch up to Beerus is one sign, but Whis mentioned that even Beerus is still in training as he's trying to learn Ultra Instinct among other things; so it's possible he too is also growing stronger in further seasons.

        Loading editor
    • When do they refer to matter when talking about Beerus vs SSJG ? also it would have also destroyed the Kaioshin Realm and the after life, who have no physical connection to the mortal universe so it can't just be threatening the matter inside the universe.

        Loading editor
    • You need to post the japanese quotes with the context.

      I clearly remember Zeno's statement about being able to bust everything utilizing "sekai" (world, multiverse in that context) instead of "Uchuu" (space, individual universes in context) the latter being what's most commonly used for universe busting statements.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, Zeno does erase "All Existence" and is 2-C for sure. But they use "World" as the terminology for the Multiverse.

        Loading editor
    • “This isn’t a 2-C upgrade, so please everyone be civilized and handle this appropriately. Thank you.”

      >My proposal is upgrading all 3-A characters to low 2-C. Don’t worry I’ll do the downgrades after this thread is concluded.

      I’m confused OP. I understand the difference between 2-C and Low 2-C but I’m still confused.

        Loading editor
    • I’m proposing a low 2-C upgrade, not a 2-C one.

        Loading editor
    • Buuhan stuff is listed in the discussion rules: 

      • Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.
        Loading editor
    • Dark649 wrote:
      Buuhan stuff is listed in the discussion rules: 
      • Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the characters based on Buuhan crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.

      the thread is not based on Buuhan, he was just brough up in the comments.

        Loading editor
    • I was just giving an example of how universe busting in Dragon Ball is interpreted. And where does Beerus mention all the celestial objects DMM?

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:
      When do they refer to matter when talking about Beerus vs SSJG ? also it would have also destroyed the Kaioshin Realm and the after life, who have no physical connection to the mortal universe so it can't just be threatening the matter inside the universe.

      Exactly, both the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are physically separated to the Mortal Universe, and they were going to be destroyed by the clash as well (as Old Kai stated that all gods would had died).

      No standard 3th Dimensional power should be able to threat the existence of separated dimensions/realms, not unless God Ki was capable to travel thought dimensions and destroy what was inside of them leaving the space-time intact, but this was never mention.

        Loading editor
    • This seems like a good argument to me imo. There's also Goku being confidant that if they were at full strength, they could've beaten Infinite Zamasu before he became 2-C without Zeno.

        Loading editor
    • “The universe becoming an empty void” definitely doesn’t sound like space-time destruction, just the universe becoming a vacuum with its space-time still intact.

      Infinite Zamasu has indication of becoming space-time since he leaks into the present and Zeno nuked the timeline to get rid of him. Regardless, the only reason Low 2-C Dragon Ball is a thing is because of Infinite Zamasu upscaling, otherwise everyone would be 3-A.

      @Hst master Goku’s word can’t be taken at face value. His ki blasts do zero damage to Infinite Zamasu, he was simply overconfident in his own abilities.

        Loading editor
    • "@Hst master Goku’s word can’t be taken at face value. His ki blasts do zero damage to Infinite Zamasu, he was simply overconfident in his own abilities."

      Why shouldn't Goku's word be taken at face value? When has he displayed overconfidence in his ability ever? Last time he was confident, in the ToP, it was justified since he curbstomped Kefla and definitely wasnt overconfident against Jiren.

      You cant just say he's overconfident without evidence to back it up.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      “The universe becoming an empty void” definitely doesn’t sound like space-time destruction, just the universe becoming a vacuum with its space-time still intact.

      It can be interpreted in both say, as space-time isn't the same thing as nothingless.

        Loading editor
    • In many languages, "Void" and "Vacuum" are the same exact word. Don't know about Japanese though.

        Loading editor
    • I would also like to add that Whis said that he was powerless to stop the destruction and Whis is a being who can casually effect space and time.

        Loading editor
    • @Akreious Goku isn’t exactly the smartest person out there. How would he know exactly how powerful Infinite Zamasu is? You might have a point if his attacks did some damage to him but they do absolutely nothing.

      @Stefano4444 That’s just going by the highest possible interpretation when it just mentions the universe becoming an empty void, not busting the actual space-time. The space-time can still be intact with all of the matter gone and that statement still holds up.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Akreious Goku isn’t exactly the smartest person out there. How would he know exactly how powerful Infinite Zamasu is? You might have a point if his attacks did some damage to him but they do absolutely nothing.

      @Stefano4444 That’s just going by the highest possible interpretation when it just mentions the universe becoming an empty void, not busting the actual space-time. The space-time can still be intact with all of the matter gone and that statement still holds up.

      Goku in general isn't the smartest but when it come to anything fight related and ki related, he is freaking God Tiers so he clearly know what he is saying.

        Loading editor
    • InfiniteBlack123 wrote: I would also like to add that Whis said that he was powerless to stop the destruction and Whis is a being who can casually effect space and time.

      By this logic anyone with space-time manipulation is Low 2-C. Show him destroying a whole space-time continuum or it doesn’t hold up.

        Loading editor
    • Hst master wrote: This seems like a good argument to me imo. There's also Goku being confidant that if they were at full strength, they could've beaten Infinite Zamasu before he became 2-C without Zeno.

      Yes I did want to point out earlier that Goku Vegeta and Trunks couldn’t harm Zamasu but they could physically interact with them. Their Ki blasts had an effect on Zamasu’s body because it actually bounced back quite violently. The reasons why no one could do damage was because he’s a fusion level foe that had gotten two boosts in strength during his fight with Vegito, his immortal regeneration and everyone was very low on energy. Not to mention it was never stated that Mugen Zamasu was any stronger than Corruption Zanmasu and they even survive Zanmasu’s attacks that were meant to kill.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      Hst master wrote: This seems like a good argument to me imo. There's also Goku being confidant that if they were at full strength, they could've beaten Infinite Zamasu before he became 2-C without Zeno.

      Yes I did want to point out earlier that Goku Vegeta and Trunks couldn’t harm Zamasu but they could physically interact with them. Their Ki blasts had an effect on Zamasu’s body because it actually bounced back quite violently. The reasons why no one could do damage was because he’s a fusion level foe that had gotten two boosts in strength during his fight with Vegito, his immortal regeneration and everyone was very low on energy. Not to mention it was never stated that Mugen Zamasu was any stronger than Corruption Zanmasu and they even survive Zanmasu’s attacks that were meant to kill.

      Damn, that's actualy a very good argument i never though about, they DID interact with Infinit Zamasu and survived his attack.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      @Hst master Goku’s word can’t be taken at face value. His ki blasts do zero damage to Infinite Zamasu, he was simply overconfident in his own abilities.

      Goku is rarely Overconfident in his own abilities. Not to mention he specifically said if they were at full strength and had a Senzu, he could fight Zamasu. Contextwise both he and Vegeta were still exhausted from Vegito's Final Kamehameha.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      InfiniteBlack123 wrote: I would also like to add that Whis said that he was powerless to stop the destruction and Whis is a being who can casually effect space and time.

      By this logic anyone with space-time manipulation is Low 2-C. Show him destroying a whole space-time continuum or it doesn’t hold up.


      When he does his temporal do over, it creates a completely new space time continuum complete with a another Zeno. And in a sense he has donse this 3 times in Super. Once in RoF, Once when Zamasu killed Gowasu and once again to give Future Trunks a new timeline. Keeping in mind a timeline consist of more than 1 Universe.

        Loading editor
    • InfiniteBlack123 wrote:

      When he does his temporal do over, it creates a completely new space time continuum complete with a another Zeno. And in a sense he has donse this 3 times in Super. Once in RoF, Once when Zamasu killed Gowasu and once again to give Future Trunks a new timeline. Keeping in mind a timeline consist of more than 1 Universe.

      When Whis reversed time it does not create new time lines. By that logic, everytime Beerus destroys Sun or Moons in his home world it will create another time lines. 

      The time-line that Trunks lives now is the one the Beerus made by killing Present Zamasu. Which Whis travel there to confirm him that he could leave there and that Beerus was the cause of its creation.

      Only mortals who meddled with Time-travel will create new time lines. Although I don't know if universe 12 has those downfalls. 

      Only the angels or Supreme Kai with Time-ring can time travel without causing it to duplicate.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with the 3-As of DBS being upgraded to Low 2-C. It has never truly made sense, in my mind, for universal feats to be treated as everything within the universe, rather than the entire space-time of the universe.

      Logically speaking, while I can consider some argument for BoG and RoF Goku (and those that scale) as being 3-A...I can't picture why SSB X10 Goku (and those that scale) wouldn't scale to Low 2-C, as Beerus was clearly concerned with Goku's progress.

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote: It has never truly made sense, in my mind, for universal feats to be treated as everything within the universe, rather than the entire space-time of the universe.

      Especially when is comes to DB.

      @Everyone, we all have to realize that in DBS “destroy the universe” is the most simple statement they use. The actual reason these characters are 3-A is because we never knew what type of universal they meant. We now know that each universe has its own space time and when they refer to universe they show the bubble, which is the whole space time continuum. It’s also been stated over and over again that Goku and Beerus were going to Annihilate the whole universe. Just because characters are using energy to destroy the universe doesn’t make it 3-A that’s nonsensical.

        Loading editor
    • Just going to say this:

      Whether overconfident or just simply not looking at the situation fully, just because Goku says that he could have fought IZ when given a Sensu doesnt automatically mean he actually can. This is less about Goku either not taking everything into account or him being some idiot, but more so that we need actual feats and evidence to suggest so, a character claim about one's own abilities is not enough. 

      And for those using "well Goku wasnt overconfident in the ToP", you do know this is after Goku and co. fight Infinite Zamasu right? Don't use a later instance to try and support a former one.

        Loading editor
    • Tfw Zamasu-chan is now Sonic-chan.

        Loading editor
    • Like I said before, Mugen Zamasu is a fusion level character. A combined attack from Goku, Vegeta and Trunks was able to put a dent for les than a second, meaning they’re actually able to potentially harm him with energy attacks if they were at full strength. They even hold back an attack from him.

        Loading editor
    • The whole Buuhan point is irrelevant since it's Anime Filler. The first character to demonstrably affect space-time on a universal scale was Infinite Zamasu which was far ahead of any of our heroes Goku vs Casual Beerus' feat was only 3-A.

      So I am against this upgrade.

        Loading editor
    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      The whole Buuhan point is irrelevant since it's Anime Filler. The first character to demonstrably affect space-time on a universal scale was Infinite Zamasu which was far ahead of any of our heroes Goku vs Casual Beerus' feat was only 3-A.

      So I am against this upgrade.

      'Far Ahead' nothing indicate he was any stronger than Fused Zamasu, who was stronger but not to the point Goku couldn't break his halo, if he was so far ahead of them, they would have been wiped alongside the humans.

      And Goku's feat against Beerus being 3-A is purely interpretation, using the japanese definition of universe + the fact it affected places not physicaly connected to the mortal universe make a low 2-C interpretation completly possible.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer The realms aren’t separate space-times and there’s overall no evidence that space-time was being affected. You need to show that it is, otherwise it’s just 3-A.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer The realms aren’t separate space-times and there’s overall no evidence that space-time was being affected. You need to show that it is, otherwise it’s just 3-A.

      The affecting seperate realm debunk the 'purely physical destruction' because otherwise it would have been stopped by the lack of physical connection and if it can't be said to mean a purely physical destruction 100% then the low 2-C interpretation of the feat works so you can't use it to say no to a low 2-C upgrade because it's a 3-A feat, that would be circular reasoning.

      So no, i wasn't saying they were seperated space time, that would be 2-C, not low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Destroying all of Universe 7 was more so destroying multiple bodies of finite space; not infinite or having time.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Destroying all of Universe 7 was more so destroying multiple bodies of finite space; not infinite or having time.

      If we don't consider U7 as it's own Space Time Continuum, then Zamasu wouldn't be low 2-C either and Zeno wouldn't be 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • “Would have been stopped by the lack of physical connection.”

      “Not saying they were separated space-time.”

      If you admit to them not being separate space-times then your first sentence makes no sense. You don’t need to destroy the space-time to affect those realms and there’s no evidence of space-time being affected so it’s not Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • How many times do I have to say that it’s not just about feats but their meaning of universal destruction. When they mean the whole universe, then that time space bubble is gone.

        Loading editor
    • I found this evidences these from this blog

      The Mortal Universe being stated as being infinite in size, multiple times. The size of Heaven is the same size as the universe. The Demon Realm is comparable in size to the mortal universe. The Kaioshin Realm is 1/10th the size of the Macrocosm. It is impossible through regular movement/methods to move from the Living World to the Afterlife, or from the Afterlife to the Kaioshin Realm,

      These evidence that I have proveded supported that the realm's distance btween each is infinite which can also support the notion of them having different space-time. What these shows at least is that space is needed to affect to destroy the other realm of universe 7.

        Loading editor
    • They’re not gonna listen to the different space times thing.

        Loading editor
    • @Elizhaa First scan only says endless which =/= infinite. Second link doesn’t work.

      It’s impossible for someone to travel through a wall but they could still break a wall with enough force.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      “Would have been stopped by the lack of physical connection.”

      “Not saying they were separated space-time.”

      If you admit to them not being separate space-times then your first sentence makes no sense. You don’t need to destroy the space-time to affect those realms and there’s no evidence of space-time being affected so it’s not Low 2-C.

      My sentence make complet sense, look at a goddamn DB map and tell where the hell the Kaioshin realm is physicaly connected to the mortal universe.

      You actualy need to be able to destroy 1 space time to reach those places because once again, they are not physicaly connected so a 'just the matter inside the universe' kind of destruction wouldn't reach them, you're misstaking that with 2-C which is mutliple space time continuum.

      Also the very definition of universe in japanese is litteraly how we define low 2-C

      So you can stop with the circular reasoning, it's not working.

        Loading editor
    • At 1:50 Whis said Zeno could destroy an entire universe while show the space time continuum.

      In the BoG fight it was stated that they would annihilate the entire universe. The statement in BoG has a lot of emphasis on destruction. More emphasis than Whis’ Zeno statement.

      There’s also only ONE single meaning for universe in DBS and that’s the image above which is a space time continuum.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragonmer Yeah no, that’s just using the highest possible interpretation.

      “They’re not physically connected”, neither are the planets in our solar system. This doesn’t mean much.

      “The universe becoming an empty void” would only support the notion of it becoming a vacuum with the space-time still intact.

      “It’s not working” meanwhile you have yet to show proper evidence.

        Loading editor
    • Can't you resize the picture ? it's a bit too big.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragonmer Yeah no, that’s just using the highest possible interpretation.

      “They’re not physically connected”, neither are the planets in our solar system. This doesn’t mean much.

      “The universe becoming an empty void” would only support the notion of it becoming a vacuum with the space-time still intact.

      “It’s not working” meanwhile you have yet to show proper evidence.

      And 3-A is using the lowest possible interpretation while still having an obvious flaw of lacking an actual physical connection.

      Also no, the hightest possible interpretation would be direct 2-C.

      Except the planete in our solar systeme are connected by the fabric of space, something not present in the DB map, they are completly no physicaly linked.

      No, it litteraly support the other way around, remember the last time they used void ? it was to describe the world of void, a timeless, spaceless place.

      Say the guy who's entier point revolved around something proven false by the first DB map you can find on google and circular reasoning, the feat isn't 3-A just because you decided to see it that way.

        Loading editor
    • Ertyu

      Near to the level of a Crusade

        Loading editor
    • Fusion Zamasu actually did merge with space-time across all 12 universes and began merging with other timelines; and it's heavily implied that even while merging with other timelines that he'd be inferior to Zeno no matter what. That is the reason for the Tier 7 ratings and there isn't proof the mortal universe and the afterlife having separate timelines. The Infinite sized stuff was also discussed and treated as hyperboles.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Fusion Zamasu actually did merge with space-time across all 12 universes and began merging with other timelines; and it's heavily implied that even while merging with other timelines that he'd be inferior to Zeno no matter what. That is the reason for the Tier 7 ratings and there isn't proof the mortal universe and the afterlife having separate timelines.

      That's not the goddamn point, you keep bringing up 2-C standard for a low 2-C upgrade, if Heaven and the mortal universe were considered their own space time continuum, we wouldn't be talking about low 2-C, we'd be talking about 2-C.

      Seriously can people actualy read and think about what is proposed instead of copy pasting the latest circular reasoning against 2-C upgrade when we are not talking about that ?

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer The planets are connected by the fabric of space-time just like the realms, otherwise they’d be in separate space-times.

      Yeah the World of Void being “timeless” yet they can still tell time in there and low tier characters like Krillin can move in it. Aside from that, it’s called extrapolation.

      No, you have still yet to give evidence that proves me wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Just pointing out it doesn't even have to be the afterlife. The Kaioshin Realm is another dimension outside the space-time continuum if you don't accept the afterlife being different timelines.

        Loading editor
    • Where is it stated Kaioshin Realm is outside of space-time? Not to mention there's no proof of Universe 6 having its own space-time separate from Universe 7 either.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      My sentence make complet sense, look at a goddamn DB map and tell where the hell the Kaioshin realm is physicaly connected to the mortal universe.

      _____________________________________________________________________

      Also the very definition of universe in japanese is litteraly how we define low 2-C

      Going by the logic I bolded out, every single verse that has universal destruction from japanese subs needs to be Low 2-C too, making 3-A a near pointless tier in general. 

      Also, unless I missed something, the map of DB isn't an argument for anything. The Kaioshin Realm is only separated from the living universe, not Universe 7 in general. 

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer The planets are connected by the fabric of space-time just like the realms, otherwise they’d be in separate space-times.

      Yeah the World of Void being “timeless” yet they can still tell time in there and low tier characters like Krillin can move in it. Aside from that, it’s called extrapolation.

      No, you have still yet to give evidence that proves me wrong.

      No, they are connected by space, you can have dimension seperated by space but still within the same space time continuum, that's basic.

      They litteraly have a physical object moved by the Grand Priest's power to tell time and use a god's way of mesuring time, said gods who are used to cross between different space time continuum, we have no indication time is going on, don't talk like they were using a random watch to say when to stop the tournament.

      Krillin can move in it because once again, DB never considered 3-A and low 2-C different and doesn't take dimensional tiering into account at all like numerous other show, DB is just a vers where a timeless, spaceless void doesn't have any special effect that would depend on powers.

      No, it's called bulshit, you can't extrapolate a different meaning of Void when it can mean both and the only other exemple of it being used was to refer to the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

      yeah, yeah, keep repeating that, it will become true maybe.

        Loading editor
    • Infinite Zamasu only fused with U7 not the whole timeline.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      My sentence make complet sense, look at a goddamn DB map and tell where the hell the Kaioshin realm is physicaly connected to the mortal universe.

      _____________________________________________________________________

      Also the very definition of universe in japanese is litteraly how we define low 2-C

      Going by the logic I bolded out, every single verse that has universal destruction from japanese subs needs to be Low 2-C too, making 3-A a near pointless tier in general. 

      Also, unless I missed something, the map of DB isn't an argument for anything. The Kaioshin Realm is only separated from the living universe, not Universe 7 in general. 

      There is litteraly a revision going on to do litteraly just that, having 3-A and low 2-C as seperate was always nonsense anyway, even the admin admitted we needed to revise that down the line.

      You missed a lot, the map mean a lot because them being physicaly seperated mean it can't be a purely physical destruction, otherwise it would have never reach the kaioshin realm, at least not until the living universe was completly gone.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Where is it stated Kaioshin Realm is outside of space-time? Not to mention there's no proof of Universe 6 having its own space-time separate from Universe 7 either.

      https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/468238902571040769/530919512221155349/image0.jpg?width=284&height=301

        Loading editor
    • The Voids in DB failed to pass the Timeless Voids Standards. Hence, why lowers tiers characters can move and why no characters has Infinite Speed yet.

      Dragomer, I understand your passion but there is no need for insults. If you want to debunked arguments, you should called them out when they are Fallacy. This method is more effective.

        Loading editor
    • Emperor and Medeus, both your argument were already brough up in previous CRT before and rejected, each universe is considered it's own space-time while Heaven and The Kaioshin realm aren't considered seperated, it's the official stand of the wiki on those subject, if either of you disagree, go make your own CRT and don't derail this thread.

        Loading editor
    • EmperorRorepme wrote:
      DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Where is it stated Kaioshin Realm is outside of space-time? Not to mention there's no proof of Universe 6 having its own space-time separate from Universe 7 either.
      https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/468238902571040769/530919512221155349/image0.jpg?width=284&height=301

      This only says that the afterlife is a world where time exists, not that it's a seperate place outside of space-time.

      This is literally not evidence whatsoever.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:
      The Voids in DB failed to pass the Timeless Voids Standards. Hence, why lowers tiers characters can move and why no characters has Infinite Speed yet.

      But the Grand Priest created the Top arena there out of nothing. Plus, he gave all each fighters their home world gravity so they can move.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:
      The Voids in DB failed to pass the Timeless Voids Standards. Hence, why lowers tiers characters can move and why no characters has Infinite Speed yet.

      Dragomer, I understand your passion but there is no need for insults. If you want to debunked arguments, you should called them out when they are Fallacy. This method is more effective.

      It failed to have the property of what we consider a timeless void but it's still a spaceless and timeless void in universe and was the only other use of void, so in DB, void is clearly associated with 'no space-time'.

      So while bringing up we don't consider it a 'true one' can be used to dismiss upgrade likes Goku having infinit speed, it can't be used to dismiss the fact that 'void' was never used to define an empty but still existing space time, nor can it be used to dismiss that void was used to describe the exact opposite of that.

        Loading editor
    • Those are hax feats, and Grand Priest so far above Infinite Zamasu for sure, but still nothing indicates the Timeless Void standards for Infinite speed.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:
      It failed to have the property of what we consider a timeless void but it's still a spaceless and timeless void in universe and was the only other use of void, so in DB, void is clearly associated with 'no space-time'.

      This literally makes absolutely no sense. 

      Either it has space-time or it doesnt, you cannot say "its not a timeless void on our site but its still a timeless void in-universe". Thats not how this works.

        Loading editor
    • I saw a blue void pop out of the side as I opened this thread and immediately wondered "who uploaded an oversized image now?" >->

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Those are hax feats, and Grand Priest so far above Infinite Zamasu for sure, but still nothing indicates the Timeless Void standards for Infinite speed.

      Dude, no one is trying to say it should be used for giving infinite speed to anyone, it's just being brough up to say that 'turning the universe into a void' doesn't mean 'an empty space time-continuum' because Void was used in universe to describe a spaceless, timeless place, that's all.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer The planets are connected by the fabric of space-time just like the realms, otherwise they’d be in separate space-times.

      Yeah the World of Void being “timeless” yet they can still tell time in there and low tier characters like Krillin can move in it. Aside from that, it’s called extrapolation.

      No, you have still yet to give evidence that proves me wrong.

      No, they are connected by space, you can have dimension seperated by space but still within the same space time continuum, that's basic.

      That still doesn’t prove space-time is being affected.

      They litteraly have a physical object moved by the Grand Priest's power to tell time and use a god's way of mesuring time, said gods who are used to cross between different space time continuum, we have no indication time is going on, don't talk like they were using a random watch to say when to stop the tournament.

      They shouldn’t be able to tell time in the first place, plus it still doesn’t change the fact that this is extrapolation.

      Krillin can move in it because once again, DB never considered 3-A and low 2-C different and doesn't take dimensional tiering into account at all like numerous other show, DB is just a vers where a timeless, spaceless void doesn't have any special effect that would depend on powers.

      This is the same kind of logic I can use to say Saitama is tier 0 because One Punch Man never took into account the NLF when they say Saitama is limitless and never loses.

      No, it's called bulshit, you can't extrapolate a different meaning of Void when it can mean both and the only other exemple of it being used was to refer to the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

      yeah, yeah, keep repeating that, it will become true maybe.

      I suggest you chill out. Yes, you are using extrapolation because those are two completely different scenes with no connection to one another.

      Replies in bold.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:
      It failed to have the property of what we consider a timeless void but it's still a spaceless and timeless void in universe and was the only other use of void, so in DB, void is clearly associated with 'no space-time'.
      This literally makes absolutely no sense. 

      Either it has space-time or it doesnt, you cannot say "its not a timeless void on our site but its still a timeless void in-universe". Thats not how this works.

      It is a timeless Void but it doesn't have the property of a timeless void as defined by our wiki, it totaly works like that, our wiki has a tone of definition that doesn't fit specific show's definition of something.

      That's like how Star Platinuum is a top tier stand in-universe in JJBA but on this site it's pretty much considered low tier.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote: Dude, no one is trying to say it should be used for giving infinite speed to anyone, it's just being brough up to say that 'turning the universe into a void' doesn't mean 'an empty space time-continuum' because Void was used in universe to describe a spaceless, timeless place, that's all.

      Your taking 2 different contexts of how "void" was used and trying to mix them together to make them be the same exact thing in the same exact situation. 

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer The planets are connected by the fabric of space-time just like the realms, otherwise they’d be in separate space-times.

      Yeah the World of Void being “timeless” yet they can still tell time in there and low tier characters like Krillin can move in it. Aside from that, it’s called extrapolation.

      No, you have still yet to give evidence that proves me wrong.

      No, they are connected by space, you can have dimension seperated by space but still within the same space time continuum, that's basic.

      That still doesn’t prove space-time is being affected.

      They litteraly have a physical object moved by the Grand Priest's power to tell time and use a god's way of mesuring time, said gods who are used to cross between different space time continuum, we have no indication time is going on, don't talk like they were using a random watch to say when to stop the tournament.

      They shouldn’t be able to tell time in the first place, plus it still doesn’t change the fact that this is extrapolation.

      Krillin can move in it because once again, DB never considered 3-A and low 2-C different and doesn't take dimensional tiering into account at all like numerous other show, DB is just a vers where a timeless, spaceless void doesn't have any special effect that would depend on powers.

      This is the same kind of logic I can use to say Saitama is tier 0 because One Punch Man never took into account the NLF when they say Saitama is limitless and never loses.

      No, it's called bulshit, you can't extrapolate a different meaning of Void when it can mean both and the only other exemple of it being used was to refer to the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

      yeah, yeah, keep repeating that, it will become true maybe.

      I suggest you chill out. Yes, you are using extrapolation because those are two completely different scenes with no connection to one another.

      Replies in bold.

      No, reply normaly, that's freaking unreadable.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote: Dude, no one is trying to say it should be used for giving infinite speed to anyone, it's just being brough up to say that 'turning the universe into a void' doesn't mean 'an empty space time-continuum' because Void was used in universe to describe a spaceless, timeless place, that's all.
      Your taking 2 different contexts of how "void" was used and trying to mix them together to make them be the same exact thing in the same exact situation. 

      No, there is no 'two context', Void was used to describe how the universe would be if Beerus and Goku really destroy it and Void was then later used to describe a timeless, spaceless void and was never used to describe anything else, so you can't claim it mean 'an empty space time continuum' when we all the info we have indicate they meant 'timeless, spaceless void'

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote: It is a timeless Void but it doesn't have the property of a timeless void as defined by our wiki, it totaly works like that, our wiki has a tone of definition that doesn't fit specific show's definition of something.

      That's like how Star Platinuum is a top tier stand in-universe in JJBA but on this site it's pretty much considered low tier.

      But its not a timeless void as the entire arc of the ToP proves so. Hit being able to use his time hax in the void, as well as Grand Priest giving a timer and a time limit on the tournament proves very well that time is existent there. 

      The void having "no time or space" is simply one thing: Hyperbole.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote: It is a timeless Void but it doesn't have the property of a timeless void as defined by our wiki, it totaly works like that, our wiki has a tone of definition that doesn't fit specific show's definition of something.That's like how Star Platinuum is a top tier stand in-universe in JJBA but on this site it's pretty much considered low tier.
      But its not a timeless void as the entire arc of the ToP proves so. Hit being able to use his time hax in the void, as well as Grand Priest giving a timer and a time limit on the tournament proves very well that time is existent there. 

      The void having "no time or space" is simply one thing: Hyperbole.

      The entier TOP arc doesn't prove it.

      Hit bring his own time-space thingie with his dimension that is litteraly made of time.

      Grand Priest's timer is litteraly just a giant slab of rock he move with his power.

      Calling something an hyperbole isn't an argument and even if it was, it still has the same result : void is used to mean spaceless and timeless, not 'Universe where all matter was destroyed'.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragonmer Wanted to type my response faster quicker without making the wall of text bigger by putting my refutes right under your points.

      All the stuff in bold is me, not that hard to read.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragonmer Wanted to type my response faster quicker without making the wall of text bigger by putting my refutes right under your points.

      All the stuff in bold is me, not that hard to read.

      Don't copy / quote what i said at all, that's usualy how we do to avoid quoting wall of text and reduce the bulk, that's also easier to read, quoting line by line become unreadable really quick, trust me.

        Loading editor
    • Whatever, this be derailing.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:

      Actually, Angels all have creation feats. Grand Priest personally created the entire Tournament of Power arena. Is it that much of a stretch to think he simply created a pocket of space-time for the mortals to fight within?

        Loading editor
    • @CryoTheMayo Yes, it is when that hasn’t been remotely shown.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:

      But its not a timeless void as the entire arc of the ToP proves so. Hit being able to use his time hax in the void, as well as Grand Priest giving a timer and a time limit on the tournament proves very well that time is existent there. 

      The void having "no time or space" is simply one thing: Hyperbole.

      It was an empty Void yet GP created arena there with everything that a mortal needs to survive. Gravity of their home world  for each fighter so they can fight at their best. 

      Hit using his Toki Tobashi is problably a mistake of Toei or it could also be that GP created time there but not whole void but just the area that they are fighting. 

      GP timer is not to tell time of the void but to tell what time is left for the tournament to end. He uses task(Whatever he calls it) to determine the time till the tournament to end. If I bring a watch from earth to the WoV it will tell time of Earth not the void. 

      The only space that their would be is arena and time would be the same size of the arena. 

      It is not an hyperbole. Before the tournament, it was empty and without time. GP came and created something there. But only the area that the tournament was held. Not the entire void. 

        Loading editor
    • "Base Goku doing so well against Broly"

      https://youtu.be/j4BGwbFt554

      You mean, Base Goku countering the first few hits then getting utterly annihilated to the point in which he has to turn Super Saiyan, still doesn't have the edge, then turns Super Saiyan God, slams Broly twice so Broly can slam him more times than he can count, then he turns Super Saiyan Blue just to be crushed by a blast Broly shoots that ends this man's career and turns the winter landscape into a magma ocean?

        Loading editor
    • KingEzran wrote:
      "Base Goku doing so well against Broly"

      https://youtu.be/j4BGwbFt554

      You mean, Base Goku countering the first few hits then getting utterly annihilated to the point in which he has to turn Super Saiyan, still doesn't have the edge, then turns Super Saiyan God, slams Broly twice so Broly can slam him more times than he can count, then he turns Super Saiyan Blue just to be crushed by a blast Broly shoots that ends this man's career and turns the winter landscape into a magma ocean?

      The novel is accepted as canon on the wiki. It describes SS Goku as matching Broly at first.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Where is it stated Kaioshin Realm is outside of space-time? Not to mention there's no proof of Universe 6 having its own space-time separate from Universe 7 either.

      It all the descriptions that involve the cosmology of universe, the Kaioshin Realm was always be show to exist in a dimension fully outside the Mortal Universe (at difference of the Afterlife, which by the way is still separated from the Mortal Universe by his own space-time), both in old guidebooks that in the DBS manga.

      http://www.magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/images/07-036-a.gif

      https://i10.mangareader.net/dragon-ball-super/16/dragon-ball-super-8271355.jpg

      http://www.magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-worldview.php

      That also is valid for all the other 12 universes, each of their Mortal Universe have their own space-time with each their Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm.

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      KingEzran wrote:
      "Base Goku doing so well against Broly"

      https://youtu.be/j4BGwbFt554

      You mean, Base Goku countering the first few hits then getting utterly annihilated to the point in which he has to turn Super Saiyan, still doesn't have the edge, then turns Super Saiyan God, slams Broly twice so Broly can slam him more times than he can count, then he turns Super Saiyan Blue just to be crushed by a blast Broly shoots that ends this man's career and turns the winter landscape into a magma ocean?

      The novel is accepted as canon on the wiki. It describes SS Goku as matching Broly at first.

      Yeah, but he said Base Goku faired well against Broly.

        Loading editor
    • KingEzran wrote:

      I know but your post would probably mislead people into thinking Goku didn't match Broly in SS.

        Loading editor
    • All of that only suggests it's a body of space that's not connected; nothing suggests they aren't contained within the same timeline.

        Loading editor
    • I agree. Low 2-c makes sense.

        Loading editor
    • Movie-wise, that is the case. It was much closer than when he was in his Base Form, but he still wasn't that good. But I can't really argue with you when it comes to Novels.

        Loading editor
    • So, the 3-A scaling for Goku would be for Low 2-C now?

      Cuz, as far as i know, If SSG Is baseline Low 2-C,  SSB might be 50x if it is considered SSJ1 grade 1 for SSG, At kaiohken x10, he would be 500x Low 2-C. 

      After their first match, Goku can match Hit without kaiohken, so he got 10x stronger naturally, so if he went Kaiohken x10 right there, he would be 5000x Low 2-C.

      Then, he gets some unknown boosts from the Black saga.

      At kaiohken x20, he should be around 10,000 Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Nobody is being upgraded to Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Well, who knows. Low 2-C SSG Goku makes a lot of sense to me based on what the OP says.

        Loading editor
    • We don't use Saiyan Multipliers used by the Kaizen Chuu. Been discussed countless times...

        Loading editor
    • Not yet. The CRT could go either way.

        Loading editor
    • Such a shame, at least 10,000x Low 2-C Goku seems super hype to me.

        Loading editor
    • Void in Dragon Ball means no time or space, U7 was gonna be a void of nothing. It was stated over and over again the ENTIRE universe would have been obliterated, Whis refers to the entire universe as The gigantic image above. The image is a space time continuum, there’s a one meaning to universe in Dragon Ball. Plain and simple guys.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      All of that only suggests it's a body of space that's not connected; nothing suggests they aren't contained within the same timeline.

      Yes, both Mortal Universe, Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm exist in the same timeline just like all other 12 universes, but you're assuming that because of this destroy one of those universes its only an 3-A feat.

      But the problem with this logic is that Mortal Universe, Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm possess their own separated dimensional space, they do not exist in the same dimensional space, this is why people living in the Moral Universe cannot simply fly fast to reach the Afterlife or even interact with the place.

      If you really wanted to destroy the 7th Universe by triggering a bomb inside the Mortal Universe, the bomb will need 4th dimensional level of power at minimum of even affect the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm, as 3th dimensional level of power will only be destroy all the galaxies inside the Mortal Universe.

      So basically erase a timeline in the DB is basically erase a small multiverse.

        Loading editor
    • KingEzran wrote: Not yet. The CRT could go either way.

      No evidence of space-time being affected?

      Yeah it’s not happening.

        Loading editor
    • Also everyone please stop bringing up the afterlife. If Goku can teleport to the other realms but not other universes or even Beerus’ planet, then they aren’t separate space times. Retcons are a thing.

        Loading editor
    • The after life is proof that you need 4d power to bust them.

      And aparently, you *can* teleport to other realms, like the kaioshin do with the kaikai technique.

      Goku's instant transmissiion just might not have the range, and that does not mean he cannot bust stuff.

      What does teleportation have to do with beeing able to destroy stuff anyways? 

        Loading editor
    • >No, there is no 'two context'

      There absolutely is 2 contexts as that's how context in general works. Your taking one word thats being used in 2 completely different situations and connecting them to make those situations one and the same when they aren't.

      >Void was used to describe how the universe would be if Beerus and Goku really destroy it

      Yes as in destroying everything in the physical universe.

      >and Void was then later used to describe a timeless, spaceless void

      Which is not only used in the context of a totally different situation than the former, but it is also wrong as I explained. There being "no time and space" is hyperbole. In fact, the word void isnt even used to describe something without Space-Time in the DBverse. Its from the title. "World of Void". If we're going to use titles to try and signify something like this, you might as well argue for Low 2-C SSJ 4 Gogeta because of "Big Bang Kamehameha".

      Not to mention, your argument massively assumes that just any void in the DB verse is one without space-time just because the World of Void was stated to be, which is ridiculous.

      >and was never used to describe anything else,

      See above. 2 different situations where "void" is used, 2 different contexts of the word.

      >so you can't claim it mean 'an empty space time continuum' when we all the info we have indicate they meant 'timeless, spaceless void'

      And, again, see above. Your making a wild assumption that just because the World of Void doesnt have space-time (it does), any other void in the verse doesn't. Not all voids are suddenly made out to be the exact same thing.

      >Hit bring his own time-space thingie with his dimension that is litteraly made of time.

      And yet, it worked inside of the void. Wouldn't have happened if there was no time there at all.

      >Grand Priest's timer is litteraly just a giant slab of rock he move with his power.

      And this is a debunk...how? Clocks are made of metal and glass. Doesnt mean they don't tell time. The fact the timer telled time at all to limit the time of the tournament is what proves there's time in the WoV, what the clock is doesnt debunk what it does.

      >Calling something an hyperbole isn't an argument

      Then you must be new to vs debating because it very well is an argument. This site uses it and so does many debating platforms. You saying it isnt just because you have no answer for something not being legit is whats not an argument.

      >and even if it was, it still has the same result : void is used to mean spaceless and timeless

      Which is still false as the WoV does indeed have time and space, and even then, this narrative of "what void means and is used for" only at best applies to the context of the World of Void. Not to any void in the DB verse. That is a wanked and ridiculous assumption with 0 evidence to back it up.

      >Actually, Angels all have creation feats

      Which are all no where remotely close to the scale of "creating time".

      >Grand Priest personally created the entire Tournament of Power arena. Is it that much of a stretch to think he simply created a pocket of space-time for the mortals to fight within?

      Yes because, like Shadow already pointed out, its something thats very far beyond simply creating x amount of matter, something very different than creating matter and something that no Angel has ever remotely demonstrated?

      This argument soley hinges on "Because Angels created x, its not wrong to assume to they created y", which is very much indeed wrong to assume.

      >It was an empty Void yet GP created arena there with everything that a mortal needs to survive. Gravity of their home world for each fighter so they can fight at their best.

      Matter and Gravity Manipulation, which has nothing to do with time. And its obvious why he did that because where would the fighters fight?

      >Hit using his Toki Tobashi is problably a mistake of Toei or it could also be that GP created time there but not whole void but just the area that they are fighting.

      A specific unfounded assumption that literally nothing proves is the case.

      >GP timer is not to tell time of the void but to tell what time is left for the tournament to end. He uses task(Whatever he calls it) to determine the time till the tournament to end. If I bring a watch from earth to the WoV it will tell time of Earth not the void.

      False equivalency here. The watch would be telling the time of earth and not the void because the watch is from earth and was made with the purpose of telling earth's time. This timer that the Grand Priest made is a timer specifically made for the World of Void, it's not a timer he just pulled out of nowhere, he created it.

      It also doesnt matter if the timer was made either for the void or for the tournament, there would be no timer at all if there was no time. That's like saying there's no time running in our world because my timer was used to tell the time of a track race and not time in general.

      >The only space that their would be is arena and time would be the same size of the arena.

      Once again, another made up assumption that not only has no evidence, but is honestly absurd to think. Time isn't defined as being at any "x size". Thats like saying time in real life is only planet sized because we humans discovered the flow of time after the earth was made.

      >It is not an hyperbole. Before the tournament, it was empty and without time. GP came and created something there.

      It as a hyperbole as everything proves it to be one. "Before the tournament" is not an excuse to dismiss inconsistency as the World of Void was not even a concept before this arc. And even then, your automatically assuming what GP is saying is legitimate fact when, again, he can simply be exaggerating what he is saying which takes much less assumption than saying "GP came and created something" when he has literally no feats to suggest that conclusion is even reasonable, let alone fact.

        Loading editor
    • What would shaking the infinite world of void mean for a low 2-C SSG Goku? 

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      Also everyone please stop bringing up the afterlife. If Goku can teleport to the other realms but not other universes or even Beerus’ planet, then they aren’t separate space times. Retcons are a thing.

      Goku unable to teleport to other universes do not disprove the Afterlife having his own dimensional space.

      The Instant Trasmission it limited by the range of Goku's Ki Sensing, the more distance there is and more difficult would be for Goku to locate any source of Ki.

      This is the reason why he couldn't directly teleport to New Namek and he needed the help of King Kai to locate the planet, because it was not only very distant but the namekians didn't had anyone powerful enough for Goku to sense from Earth.

      So its likely that the distance between universes is simply so massive that the Ki of the habitants couldn't be sensed, the same it could be the case for Beerus's planet.

        Loading editor
    • Ted Ed wrote: What would shaking the infinite world of void mean for a low 2-C SSG Goku? 

      1) The WoV being infinite is a mistranslation.

      2) At best that would be a High 3-A feat. Low 2-C is solely from Infinite Zamasu upscaling.

        Loading editor
    • Low 2-C is based on the OP, Shadow Warrior.

      SSG Is already low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • @Ted Ed Which is not a Low 2-C feat.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Btw Shadow, i'd reccomend messaging more staff to look at this (maybe Cal, Assalt or Somebody) and give their opinion.

        Loading editor
    • @Xerkser500 Cal also disagrees. He kudos’d Matt.

        Loading editor
    • Still no two context, one is used to describe how the universe will be and the other is used to describe how the world of void is, the meaning is the same in both, unless you have proof.

      Based on what ? nothing ? and any Proof of that ? no ? cool, the actual show disagree and used Void to describe a timeless, spaceless place and nothing else, so your point is still invalid, try again

      Once again, read above, no two context desperate cop out unless you have proof that they meant something different the first time and you don't, so once again you are objectively and purely wrong here.

      And no, it's still not an hyperbole, try again.

      Except it was, on screen, it was canonicaly used to describe that, a timeless, spaceless void and it was given no other definition or use.

      Still no two context of the word, still a single definition for void used in-universe and so your argument is still wrong and void meant they'd destroy the space time too.

      I am not making any assumption, the world of void has no space nor time, as the show itself directly state, you're the one trying to debunk canon with random 'bu-bu-but muh two context'.

      Not all voids are made of the same thing but Void was only used in a single way in canon so when brough up at another point in time, we use that definition to conclude on what they meant, so once again, it would be the same kind of void until proven otherwise because that's all the indication we have.

      Once again, Hit bring his own time with his dimension of litteral time, that's how he can use his ability.

      It is a debunk, you'd get how if you actualy though about it, Clocks aren't just giant slab of rocks without any mechanism being moved purely through the power of an established reality warper.

      No, i am not new, which is why i know your tentative to claim 'muh hyperbol' as an argument is pure nonsense, just whinning about it mean nothing, you have to prove it.

      Nope, still not false, your opinion <<<<<< What the show directly and canonicaly say, the world of void has no space nor time.

      No, once again, it apply to every usage of the word void until it is explicitly used in another way and it is 100% supported by the only definition of a void we are ever given in the entier dragon ball franchise.

      Want to know what has no evidence at all ? not even a shred of one even counting the video game ? that dragon ball ever used 'void' to describe an empty universe with an intact space time, that absolutly never happened, there is no such definition of void given anywhere.

      And once again, don't do the line by line quoting shit, it just add to the bulk of the comments.

        Loading editor
    • Kudoing people does not mean agreement.

      And OP has not beed debunked yet at all.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragonmer

      Those are two different scenes with no relation to one another. You cannot use the World of Void as an argument for “Goku and Beerus would destroy the space-time” when nothing indicates that. Turning the universe into an empty void is the equivalent of turning it into a vacuum.

      He doesn’t have to prove a negative. You have to prove that space-time would be destroyed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      Also here, asking him to prove a negative.

      Argumentum ad nauseam.

      If something doesn’t remotely demonstrate the qualities it’s stated to have, then yes it’s hyperbole.

      More argumentum ad nauseam.

      Even more argumentum ad nauseam.

      WOV not having time and space is blatantly contradicted.

      Not how burden of proof works.

      And it wouldn’t have worked if the WoV lacked time.

      How do you explain low tiers like Krillin being able to move in it then?

      Argumentum ad nauseam yet again.

      Which again is blatantly contradicted by the visual evidence.

      And the last two, just more argumentum ad nauseam.

        Loading editor
    • Memeing is not an argument.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      We don't use Saiyan Multipliers used by the Kaizen Chuu. Been discussed countless times...

      He only mentioned Super Saiyan and Kaio-Ken. Both of their multipliers are accepted by the wiki.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      1) The WoV being infinite is a mistranslation.

      Really? I've never heard of this before. Do you have any sources that explain this?

        Loading editor
    • It's not two context, both statement refer to a void, one about a void that would be created in place of the universe and the other a long established void.

      Yes, i totaly can use it, Void can mean both so to judge what they meant, we use how they defined it when using it another moment to decide which definition they meant and here they clearly meant 'timeless and spaceless void' not 'matterless void'.

      No, it isn't, provide evidence of your definition of the word ever being used, i already provided mine with the world of void.

      It isn't a negative, he affirm it use one of the two possible definition for void while i affirm it use the other, i provided proof with the world of void now it's his turn.

      No, extraordinary claim don't need extraordinary proof, that's pure nonsense, all you need to proof something like gravity is litteraly drop something and i already provided multiple evidence while all you said is 'no, it's not'.

      Asking him to prove that they meant 'turn into into a matterless universe but with intact space-time' isn't asking him to prove a negative.

      Bulshitenum cop-outum, using a term in lating isn't an argument.

      Good thing that nothing indicate that it doesn't have the property of being timeless and spaceless because there are no objective mesure of that then and once again, even if it's an hyperbole, it's the definition they used that is important, nothing else.

      More non argument cop out trying sound smart.

      Yes it would have, obviously if you bring your own freaking mini space time and pocket dimension, you'll be able to use whatever ability you need them for, that's like saying space isn't a vaccum because we can astronaut with oxygene tank there.

      More non argument.

      Even more non argument.

      Prove it, i already addressed all your supposed 'contradiction'.

      It's totaly how burden of proof works, we both made claims, i brought evidence, he didn't.

      Once again, nothing say that and logic say that it's how it works.

      Where was it ever established that you needed to be hight tier to survive in a timeless spaceless place in DB ? absolutly nowhere, even in the timeless spaceless place erased by Zen'o himself, casual base Goku and Trunks could move with no issue.

      non argument yet again.

      It's still isn't, as i'v already explained it again and again, just repeating 'it's not' isn't an argument.

      The last one is just another non argument.

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      1) The WoV being infinite is a mistranslation.

      Really? I've never heard of this before. Do you have any sources that explain this?

      Sera brought this up a while back.

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      1) The WoV being infinite is a mistranslation.

      Really? I've never heard of this before. Do you have any sources that explain this?

      The perfect Translation of this is "A world without time and space, filled with only eternity and emptiness."

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      1) The WoV being infinite is a mistranslation.

      Really? I've never heard of this before. Do you have any sources that explain this?

      Wasn't the translation confirmed by Herms anyway ? we pretty much always take his word over other people's when it come to translation.

        Loading editor
    • The Causality wrote:

      The perfect Translation of this is "A world without time and space, filled with only eternity and emptiness."

      Wait. How can it lack time and space but also be filled with 'eternity'? Doesn't that contradict itself?

        Loading editor
    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      The Causality wrote:
      Wait. How can it lack time and space but also be filled with 'eternity'? Doesn't that contradict itself?

      Beerus Mean that the place stay Unchanged and Eternal because it lack time and space, nothing less nothing more.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragonmer

      And of course, nothing new is brought to the table. You keep bringing up the same points that were already refuted.

      Goku and Trunks moving after Zeno erased the timeline is an outlier.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragonmer

      And of course, nothing new is brought to the table. You keep bringing up the same points that were already refuted.

      Goku and Trunks moving after Zeno erased the timeline is an outlier.

      And of course you don't provide your own argument nor proof, because you don't have any.

      Refuted where exactly ? nowhere, you repeating 'it's not' isn't a refutation.

      It isn't an outlier, it's perfectly consistent with everyone else moving in the world of void, that's just how DB treat timeless, spaceless void.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowDragon is just trolling at this point. 

      His points have been debunked and refuted long ago.

        Loading editor
    • Is there actual evidence that destroying the universe refers to turning it into a vacuum? Like, the actual kanji for it? I've been running around and I have yet to see the kanji for Vacuum or similar yet.

        Loading editor
    • Don't accuse other users of trolling just because they disagree with you.

        Loading editor
    • >Still no two context, one is used to describe how the universe will be and the other is used to describe how the world of void is, the meaning is the same in both, unless you have proof.

      Except there is 2 context because the universe and the World of Void are NOT the same thing. That is the problem. The context of what the universe would end up as =/= the context of what the World of Void is. Thus, "void" is being used in different contexts in different situations.

      The burden of proof is on you to prove Beerus and Goku would have turned the universe into something akin to the World of Void, otherwise its pure speculation and wank to take what "void" was meant for something else and apply it to this particular situation.

      >Based on what?

      Based on it being called a "vaccum of nothingness", vaccum meaning a space devoid of matter. So now you need to prove that "void" in the context of this case is the same as the context of the World of Void's case instead of just assuming it is.

      >and any Proof of that ? no ? cool, the actual show disagree and used Void to describe a timeless, spaceless place and nothing else, so your point is still invalid, try again

      First of all, stop with the attitude. You were called out on this before to drop it and debate this civilly. I am doing that and you need to as well.

      Second of all, I dont care what the "show disagrees with" because the show is going off of hyperbole. And we know its hyperbole because of the blatant contradictions against it being a "timeless and spaceless void". So hiding behind what the show says doesnt help you because they are wrong.

      Third, the show doesnt even describe "voids" being without time and space. It's describing the World of Void being without time and space, not voids in general. And its wrong anyway because of the evidence going against the WoV being timeless and spaceless. What the World of Void is =/= all other voids, stop assuming they are.

      >Once again, read above, no two context desperate cop out unless you have proof that they meant something different the first time and you don't, so once again you are objectively and purely wrong here.

      And see above again. They are 2 different situations using "void" in 2 different contexts. And thats pushing it since the only justification for "void" being described without space-time is going off of the name "World of Void". And like I pointed out before, unless you want a Low 2-C SSJ4 Gogeta because of "Big Bang Kamehameha", it should be clear on why using titles as arguments is bullshit and this is no different. Even if it was, it still doesn't mean a thing.

      And I don't know why your saying "cop out" like context doesn't matter. When it absolutely does and anyone on this wiki would tell you the same thing.

      >And no, it's still not an hyperbole, try again.

      "And no" is not an argument. Prove its not hyperbole then. Or else it is.

      >Except it was, on screen, it was canonicaly used to describe that, a timeless, spaceless void and it was given no other definition or use.

      No it wasn't. The show never used anything akin to "a void is a timeless, spaceless void." The show instead says that the World of Void is a timeless, spaceless void, clearly saying that only the World of Void is timeless and spaceless, not any void in the verse in general. Meaning, this applies only to the context of the World of Void.

      And even then, the statement is bullshit because evidence proves the World of Void itself has time and space and is indeed not without either.

      >Still no two context of the word, still a single definition for void used in-universe and so your argument is still wrong and void meant they'd destroy the space time too.

      And i'll again say read above because there is 2 contexts of the word. The void in Beerus and Goku's case is not the same thing as the World of Void. 2 different situations, therefore 2 different contexts of "void". Simple as that.

      >I am not making any assumption, the world of void has no space nor time, as the show itself directly state, you're the one trying to debunk canon with random 'bu-bu-but muh two context'.

      Because, like I said above, context matters for a reason and we arent going to discard it just so one verse gets a free pass.

      Anyway, you are making an assumption because your argument assumes that just because the World of Void is stated to lack time and space (which is also wrong for the 10th time), any other void in the verse lacks time and space too. Like in Beerus and Goku's situation of destroying the universe. And thats bullshit.

      >Not all voids are made of the same thing but Void was only used in a single way in canon

      For the World of Void, not voids in general. So again, "timeless and spaceless" only applies to the context of the World of Void. You can't treat another situation as having the same context without explicit evidence.

      >so when brough up at another point in time, we use that definition to conclude on what they meant, so once again, it would be the same kind of void until proven otherwise because that's all the indication we have.

      See above. The "definition" was never generalized whatsoever, it was used specifically for the World of Void. And its still wrong because of evidence debunking it lacking time and space when it indeed does have time and space.

      So for the 100th time, dont take what void meant in one context and apply to another to treat them the same when they are not the same. They are different.

      >Once again, Hit bring his own time with his dimension of litteral time, that's how he can use his ability.

      Yes and how would a dimension of literal time be able to exist, let alone operate, in a place where time is non-existent? It can't. So the fact that it can work in the World of Void proves that the World of Void is indeed a place where time exists.

      I dont care what the ability is, what actually matters is the portrayl of it. Hit would never be able to actually use a stored amount of time in a place where time doesnt exist.

      >It is a debunk, you'd get how if you actualy though about it, Clocks aren't just giant slab of rocks without any mechanism being moved purely through the power of an established reality warper.

      And again, this is completely irrelevant. A clock can be made of metal, glass, fire, plastic, literally anything and it doesn't take away from the actual purpose it serves. It's purpose is to tell time, no matter what its made out of and that's exactly what Grand Priests clock did. Again, what something is doesn't influence what its purpose is.

      >No, i am not new, which is why i know your tentative to claim 'muh hyperbol' as an argument is pure nonsense, just whinning about it mean nothing, you have to prove it.

      And its a good thing it is proven. Hits time abilities working, GP's clock working, a time-limit on the tournament, they are all evidence of the void not lacking time. So claiming hyperbole when there's reason behind it is absolutely not nonsense. Now its your job to prove its not and you've failed wholefully at that at this point.

      >Nope, still not false, your opinion <<<<<< What the show directly and canonicaly say, the world of void has no space nor time.

      And what is shown >>>>>> what the show says, which is exactly what my "opinion" is based on. So not false in the slightest. What a show says is not absolute.

      >No, once again, it apply to every usage of the word void until it is explicitly used in another way and it is 100% supported by the only definition of a void we are ever given in the entier dragon ball franchise.

      And for the 100th time, again, its not the definition of a void in DB. It's the definition of what the World of Void specifically is, which is also wrong evidence proves that its wrong, so this doesnt even apply to anything. But even if it could, it only applies to the World of Void, nothing more.

      Your point here is to literally ignore all context because you want all usages of a word (Which comes from a title not to mention) to be exactly the same for the sake of an upgrade, which is absolutely ridiculous.

      >Want to know what has no evidence at all ? not even a shred of one even counting the video game ? that dragon ball ever used 'void' to describe an empty universe with an intact space time, that absolutly never happened, there is no such definition of void given anywhere.

      Except what the Old Kai says in response to Beerus and Goku's clashing. That they'd turn the universe into a "A Vaccum of Nothingess", vacuum meaning exactly that. Space devoided of all matter.

      And even then, there's no definition of "void" meaning timeless and spaceless either, the only description of this is for the World of Void, which once again, is proven wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Once again, stop with line by line quoting, it's unreadable and make your comment longer than it has to be, do your comment properly goddamit, i make an effort to be readable, be civil enough to do the same.

      Also with your vaccum stuff, don't tell me you got into that argument not knowing the vaccuum thing was a misstranslation of Void ? seriously ?

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      It isn't an outlier, it's perfectly consistent with everyone else moving in the world of void, that's just how DB treat timeless, spaceless void.

      Thats...exactly why its a huge outlier. And for obvious reason.

      Unless you seriously expect us to believe Infinite Speed Roshi, Tien, Krillin, or even Chi-Chi and Bulma, and literally everyone and their mother, are infinite speed. Because im telling you now that this will never get accepted under any circumstance.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      It isn't an outlier, it's perfectly consistent with everyone else moving in the world of void, that's just how DB treat timeless, spaceless void.

      Thats...exactly why its a huge outlier. And for obvious reason.

      Unless you seriously expect us to believe Infinite Speed Roshi, Tien, Krillin, or even Chi-Chi and Bulma, and literally everyone and their mother, are infinite speed. Because im telling you now that this will never get accepted under any circumstance.

      You don't know what an outlier is if you think a feat coherent with previous and future feats is an outlier.

      I litteraly already explained that, do you even read what i write or do you just quote it and then parrot your nonsensical copy pasta about context ?

      It isn't about it giving them infinit speed, it's about it being just treated as something everyone can survive in in dragon ball so you can't 'muh Krillin' as an argument to say it's not a spaceless and timeless void cause we already saw completly powered down characters being fine in an accepted and confirmed timeless and spaceless void.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:
      Once again, stop with line by line quoting, it's unreadable and make your comment longer than it has to be, do your comment properly goddamit, i make an effort to be readable, be civil enough to do the same.

      Also with your vaccum stuff, don't tell me you got into that argument not knowing the vaccuum thing was a misstranslation of Void ? seriously ?

      Oh I didnt know you were the boss of me. 

      My counters are perfectly readable, stop making excuses just because its a long reply. And again, stop with the condescending attitude. 

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote: Is there actual evidence that destroying the universe refers to turning it into a vacuum? Like, the actual kanji for it? I've been running around and I have yet to see the kanji for Vacuum or similar yet.

      " “The universe becoming an empty void” definitely doesn’t sound like space-time destruction, just the universe becoming a vacuum with its space-time still intact. "

      I think his argument is that it doesn't sound enough like space-time destruction.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:
      Once again, stop with line by line quoting, it's unreadable and make your comment longer than it has to be, do your comment properly goddamit, i make an effort to be readable, be civil enough to do the same.

      Also with your vaccum stuff, don't tell me you got into that argument not knowing the vaccuum thing was a misstranslation of Void ? seriously ?

      Oh I didnt know you were the boss of me. 

      My counters are perfectly readable, stop making excuses just because its a long reply. And again, stop with the condescending attitude. 

      Being the boss of you =/= basic civility, that's the very reason we have a 'don't quote walls of text' rule and other such rules, it's for basic civility.

      No, they aren't, half of it is my own comment and it's basicaly two lines of mine, two lines of yours, it's a mess to read.

      I'm not being condescending, i'm just being baffled at you getting into an argument without knowing the basis for it.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer

      He’s addressing the points you made and offering a direct rebuttal to each of them. Also you complain about quoting large walls of text when that’s exactly what you were doing when responding to my comments.

      “It’s a mess to read”, he highlighted your points in bold, it’s so easy.

      Anyways this is derailing. You still haven’t given any proper refutes to the arguments against the upgrade.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer

      He’s addressing the points you made and offering a direct rebuttal to each of them. Also you complain about quoting large walls of text when that’s exactly what you were doing when responding to my comments.

      “It’s a mess to read”, he highlighted your points in bold, it’s so easy.

      Anyways this is derailing. You still haven’t given any proper refutes to the arguments against the upgrade.

      I quoted so i could respond comfortably and then deleted the quoting once i considered it reached wall of text level. Also he could just full quote what i said and it would be easier to read than the line by line quoting., since he seems so obsessed with making adding useless bulk to his comment;

      No, it's not, it's a mess to read.

      Except i did, again and again, also sorry but 'arguments' ? baseless 'muh context' and 'Void = perfectly fine space time continuum' aren't argument, you'll be able to call them that when you're able to actualy provide evidence for your interpretation of 'Void'.

      Meanwhile, DBS only has one definition of Void and it goes against your idea.

      What's more the 'void' thing isn't even the important part of the upgrade and youy didn't refute any of the argument in favor of the upgrade nor the OP itself, you didn't even address the japanse dictionary defining universe like how we define low 2-C instead of 3-A

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, you repeated that ad-nauseam. I am going by the interpretation that requires less assumptions. The universe “becoming an empty void” doesn’t remotely imply space-time being busted, so instead it’s more reasonable for it to refer to “the universe will become a vacuum with the space-time still there.” You keep using the World of Void as an example when it’s completely unrelated and assume that because it has “void” in the name then that means Goku and Beerus were going to destroy space-time when there’s no evidence supporting it.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Yeah, you repeated that ad-nauseam. I am going by the interpretation that requires less assumptions. The universe “becoming an empty void” doesn’t remotely imply space-time being busted, so instead it’s more reasonable for it to refer to “the universe will become a vacuum with the space-time still there.” You keep using the World of Void as an example when it’s completely unrelated and assume that because it has “void” in the name then that means Goku and Beerus were going to destroy space-time when there’s no evidence supporting it.

      Yeah, you repeated your non argument.

      Nope, you're going by the interpretation that require the most assumption, It require assuming they don't follow the japanese definition of 'universe' when talking about the universe being destroyed, that how they use 'void' in the only other instance of the whole franchise is the exact opposed to what they meant when making the universe statement, that they meant a purely material destruction of the universe despite the shockwave reaching place not material connect at all (and you can't just destroy black holes without destroying space time anyway), that Beerus was excited fighting Goku twice despite Goku being litteraly infinitely weaker than him etc, that's a shit lot of assumption compared to 'just follow what is canonicaly said' + follow the Japanse definition of universe.

      Once again, the world of void is related, those are litteraly the only two instance of the word and both just so happen to be closely related to both 'universe' and 'space and time', saying it isn't related is delusional.

      Except the evidence of Universe including space time in the very definition of 'universe' in japanese, the whole 'Goku's power would be equaly irrelevant to Beerus even as Super Saiyan God so he would have no reason to be excited', the whole space time continuum being shown when it's mentionned that for exemple Zeno would destroy the universe etc, that's actualy a shit load more evidence than you have which ammount to....litteraly and absolutly nothing.

      Also it's funny how you suddenly act like it's all 'assumption' and bad despite the anti-upgrade side was the first one to try and play the 'extrapolation' card, which basicaly just mean 'my own assumption that i find legitimate'.

        Loading editor
    • “you didn't even address the japanse dictionary defining universe like how we define low 2-C instead of 3-A”

      Which really doesn’t mean anything. Terms like “world” and “universe” can mean very different things depending on the context. For example, the Amala Network in SMT is called a universe but it’s infinitely above baseline 2-A. World generally means planet but plenty of fictions use it to refer to a universe or even a multiverse. 

      With that being said, either prove space-time is involved or it’s just 3-A.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      “you didn't even address the japanse dictionary defining universe like how we define low 2-C instead of 3-A”Which really doesn’t mean anything. Terms like “world” and “universe” can mean very different things depending on the context. For example, the Amala Network in SMT is called a universe but it’s infinitely above baseline 2-A. World generally means planet but plenty of fictions use it to refer to a universe or even a multiverse. 

      With that being said, either prove space-time is involved or it’s just 3-A.

      Yeah for world, no for universe, Universe mean a pretty specific thing when they litteraly show you the goddamn universe but both were used anyway, to the point this very own wiki recognised they were used interchangeably in this context and the freaking dictionary is directly saying it refer to space and time , not just the matter inside the universe so we have no reason to think otherwise, your assumption don't beat a direct definition from the dictionary in term of value in an argument.

      SMT isn't dragon ball, if SMT and Saint Seiya were dragon ball, they'd be like 5 tiers lowers given the level of scrutiny DB is under.

      Good thing i already proved it then.

      With that being said, debunk all those argument that it's low 2-C or it's low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Any standard Japanese dictionary defines Universe as:

      “ 全ての時間と空間、およびそこに含まれるエネルギーと物質。あらゆる物質や放射を包容する空間。あらゆる物事(森羅万象)を含む全ての存在。”

      “All time and space, and the energy and matter contained therein. A space that encloses all matter and radiation. Also includes all living creatures and all things.

      • Credit to Sera's Universe level Standards crt

      In other languages, universe definition can be ambiguous but in Japanese, the universe definition looks to be a standard enough to be Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote: Whis refers to the entire universe as The gigantic image above. The image is a space time continuum, there’s a one meaning to universe in Dragon Ball. Plain and simple guys.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: Whis refers to the entire universe as The gigantic image above. The image is a space time continuum, there’s a one meaning to universe in Dragon Ball. Plain and simple guys.

      Nah, when they say universe, they mean the dust on earth, obvious they were just going to vaccum clean the whole planete.

        Loading editor
    • @Elizhaa The Low 2-C Standards for Universe has been rejected in the previous CRT

      Even if clearly agree with it.

        Loading editor
    • The Causality wrote:
      @Elizhaa The Low 2-C Standards for Universe has been rejected in the previous CRT

      Even if clearly agree with it.

      That CRT isn't rejected yet, it's still waiting more input from the OP and they are planning another tier revision in addition at least that's what Antvasima said earlier in the thread IIRC.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer

      Actually no, The Causality’s right on this one. The Low 2-C standard was rejected. Prove it involves space-time or you’re 3-A.

      Or maybe, just maybe, SMT and Saint Seiya simply have more sufficient evidence to justify a higher rating than Dragon Ball? Refrain from accusing others of bias simply because you didn’t get your way.

      The arguments were in fact debunked.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      That CRT isn't rejected yet, it's still waiting more input from the OP and they are planning another tier revision in addition at least that's what Antvasima said earlier in the thread IIRC.

      The one which talk about Low 2-C has been rejected yes

      The one where we wait more reply is about it's size 

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer

      Actually no, The Causality’s right on this one. The Low 2-C standard was rejected. Prove it involves space-time or you’re 3-A.

      Or maybe, just maybe, SMT and Saint Seiya simply have more sufficient evidence to justify a higher rating than Dragon Ball? Refrain from accusing others of bias simply because you didn’t get your way.

      The arguments were in fact debunked.

      The standards of fusing A-3 and low 2-C was rejected, not the freaking japanese definition dude, you're so desperate, you were silent and when you saw that you jumped on that like you were starving XD.

      It was already proven, multiple time, so yeah, Low 2-C, cool and no, i won't be 3-A just because i won an internet argument, chill dude, you're not fighting against the incarnation of dragon ball.

      Or maybe, just maybe, it's like i said and i accused no one while you're getting your panties in a bunch ?

      Where ? oh yeah, nowhere, you haven't even addressed a single one of them, you didn't even address Zamasu-chan's three line long comment., move along.

        Loading editor
    • Can we like cut condescension coming from both sides? I can feel it from here.

        Loading editor
    • The Causality wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      That CRT isn't rejected yet, it's still waiting more input from the OP and they are planning another tier revision in addition at least that's what Antvasima said earlier in the thread IIRC.

      The one which talk about Low 2-C has been rejected yes

      The one where we wait more reply is about it's size 

      Are we talking about the same one ?

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: Whis refers to the entire universe as The gigantic image above. The image is a space time continuum, there’s a one meaning to universe in Dragon Ball. Plain and simple guys.

      Not exactly, unless you want to say DBZ Frieza is Low 2-C because he’s a threat to the universe.

      Also, that’s Zeno who’s the God tier of the verse and can destroy an entire timeline.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Zamasu Chan wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: Whis refers to the entire universe as The gigantic image above. The image is a space time continuum, there’s a one meaning to universe in Dragon Ball. Plain and simple guys.

      Not exactly, unless you want to say DBZ Frieza is Low 2-C because he’s a threat to the universe.

      Also, that’s Zeno who’s the God tier of the verse and can destroy an entire timeline.

      A threat to the universe =/= a universe buster, also Universe wasn't even used back in the original manga and in my country, they translated it to 'everything' instead of universe.

      You're misstaking 1 universe with 1 timeline, dude, the wiki's stand on this is that every universe has it's own space time continuum, if you want to argue that, make your own CRT.

      The point is that they use the exact same word they used for Beerus and Goku while showing that.

        Loading editor
    • I did not mistake a universe for a timeline. I know timelines in DB contain 12 universes.

        Loading editor
    • Can we please stop with the condescending insults on both sides? That’s why I said be civil in the OP because these are Dragon Ball threads in a nutshell.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: Whis refers to the entire universe as The gigantic image above. The image is a space time continuum, there’s a one meaning to universe in Dragon Ball. Plain and simple guys.

      Not exactly, unless you want to say DBZ Frieza is Low 2-C because he’s a threat to the universe.

      Also, that’s Zeno who’s the God tier of the verse and can destroy an entire timeline.

      You completely missed the point, that’s a really dumb analogy. An entire universe is a space time continuum. As the entire universe was shown on screen as a space time continuum. Being a threat to the universe is completely different from being able to destroy it entirely.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:
      Any standard Japanese dictionary defines Universe as:

      “ 全ての時間と空間、およびそこに含まれるエネルギーと物質。あらゆる物質や放射を包容する空間。あらゆる物事(森羅万象)を含む全ての存在。”

      “All time and space, and the energy and matter contained therein. A space that encloses all matter and radiation. Also includes all living creatures and all things.

      • Credit to Sera's Universe level Standards crt

      In other languages, universe definition can be ambiguous but in Japanese, the universe definition looks to be a standard enough to be Low 2-C.

      Like I said above, unless any verse with subbed universal destruction evidence becomes Low 2-C as well, this is not an argument.

      Also, im loving how my huge rebuttal reply just got straight up ignored.

        Loading editor
    • Tbh, using dictonary definitions as an argument is pretty poor. I've seen these kind of arguments before, but they hardly ever point out connotations or how they're actually used. **Cough cough, dimensions cough**

      Case in point, universe often means just the physical space even in Japanese media, espically when you consider DB (Most major antagonists are 'threats to the universe') even back in Z. Unless everyone has space-time manip its pretty clear you gotta use the context in the actual show.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Elizhaa wrote:
      Any standard Japanese dictionary defines Universe as:

      “ 全ての時間と空間、およびそこに含まれるエネルギーと物質。あらゆる物質や放射を包容する空間。あらゆる物事(森羅万象)を含む全ての存在。”

      “All time and space, and the energy and matter contained therein. A space that encloses all matter and radiation. Also includes all living creatures and all things.

      • Credit to Sera's Universe level Standards crt

      In other languages, universe definition can be ambiguous but in Japanese, the universe definition looks to be a standard enough to be Low 2-C.

      Like I said above, unless any verse with subbed universal destruction evidence becomes Low 2-C as well, this is not an argument.

      Also, im loving how my huge rebuttal reply just got straight up ignored.

      A lot of verse should have low 2-C IMO so 'it shouldn't get low 2-C because it mean other verse could use the same argument to be upgraded' isn't an argument.

      It was ignored because 1 : It was unreadable, as i have stated.

      2 : it didn't actualy rebut anything.

      3 : it was basicaly a copy pasta of what we already talked about again and again.

      And 4 : let's be honest it was long and given the line by line quoting, responding would be a pain just from formating perspective.

      Also yeah, let's act like the definition is the only part of the revision rather than litteraly two lines proposed as supports arguments.

        Loading editor
    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: The whole Buuhan point is irrelevant since it's Anime Filler. The first character to demonstrably affect space-time on a universal scale was Infinite Zamasu which was far ahead of any of our heroes Goku vs Casual Beerus' feat was only 3-A.

      So I am against this upgrade.

      I maintain my position.

      Also, real nice to see that this thread went to shit in true Dragon Ball thread fashion.

        Loading editor
    • Its just a bunch of dragon ball haters that repeat the same debunked arguments over and over.

        Loading editor
    • A lie told a thousand times becomes a truth, aftrr all.

      Specially if a certain moderator is against all DB upgrades there in the wiki.

        Loading editor
    • Oh.

        Loading editor
    • Real maturity right there.

        Loading editor
    • >Calls us haters for disagreeing with something

      Wew

        Loading editor
    • @Ted, that's very unnecessary; and you're forgetting the fact that some of us staff members that were against the upgrades actually really like Dragon Ball.

        Loading editor
    • I don't mean to be rude.... But i think it would be best keep all degratory/mean comments out of this.. it is derailing the thread, and will accelerate this thread being closed.. 

        Loading editor
    • As expected.

      But sure Even if the op has explained just how SSG Goku being 3-A is way too low to be somewhat compared to beerus and how the DB universe has shown to contain separate space times multiple tkmes.

        Loading editor
    • I just see this absolute bias against these kinds of stuff and makes me mad, you know?

        Loading editor
    • Oh come on, i get a warning and yet Ted Ed does worst while Matthew bait like there is no tommorow and nothing happen, that's bulshit.

        Loading editor
    • @Ted Ed Oh yeah because disagreeing makes someone a hater. Stop being so petty.

      Well this “moderator” is certainly making a lot more sense than the people pushing for an upgrade based on a lack of proper evidence.

        Loading editor
    • 🤦🏽‍♂️ God dammit...

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Ted Ed Oh yeah because disagreeing makes someone a hater. Stop being so petty.

      Well this “moderator” is certainly making a lot more sense than the people pushing for an upgrade based on a lack of proper evidence.

      Say the guy on the side who has litteraly 0 evidence for their 'vaccum' claim.

        Loading editor
    • This thread should be closed honestly. Literally everything has been refuted and the only arguments against the counters of the upgrade are fueled by insults and ad hominem

      And incase I didnt make myself clear, I vehemently disagree with the upgrade as well.

        Loading editor
    • gonna close the thread so the upgrade doesnt happen.



      As expected.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      This thread should be closed honestly. Literally everything has been refuted and the only arguments against the counters of the upgrade are fueled by insults and ad hominem

      And incase I didnt make myself clear, I vehemently disagree with the upgrade as well.

      Litteraly nothing had been refuted.

      Don't whine about ad hominem when the worst that happened here was people being obnoxious and you're just as guilty as everyone else here.

      Yes, you made yourself very clear, you just didn't provide any evidence for any of the claim you made against the upgrade.

        Loading editor
    • Prove the vacoom claim before trying to claim you are not a hater, that is how grow ups back up their claims.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly yeah, i got carried away with the obnoxiousness but you can't really say the other guys weren't doing just as bad, even right now, even matthew baited people there.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      This thread should be closed honestly. Literally everything has been refuted and the only arguments against the counters of the upgrade are fueled by insults and ad hominem

      And incase I didnt make myself clear, I vehemently disagree with the upgrade as well.

      Not every thing has been refuted. Beerus holding back near infinity was not debunked.

        Loading editor
    • @Ted Please stop with this immaturity. Disagreeing with someone doesn't warrant taking shots at that someone and will most likely get you in trouble.

        Loading editor
    • @Ted Ed No, how about you prove that Goku and Beerus were going to destroy space-time and not just the physical contents? After all your claim is what requires more assumptions.

        Loading editor
    • Ted Ed, again, I understand the passion but if want to debunked arguments you have to called out Fallacy.

        Loading editor
    • Prove beerus held back infinitely or admit you have lost.

        Loading editor
    • Can everyone who agrees stop typing for a sec this is clearly getting worse. I made the thread and I’m sorry that it turned out like this. I alone will handle the rest of this to avoid further conflict. If you don’t stop replying I will find someone to close the thread. Thank you.

        Loading editor
    • @Ted Ed Beerus is only Low 2-C not because he can actually destroy a space-time continuum, but because of being stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

        Loading editor
    • Oi! I come here to see the thread and all I see if people fighting! stop this madness or we will be force to get others to stop this which won’t be pretty

        Loading editor
    • Oh my. Goku can keeo up with someone that couldnt have holded back infinitely that is low 2-c!

      That means he is 3-A! Obviously. Get that bad argument out of here.

      • PROVE BEERUS HELD BACK INFINITELY (Even when he himself stated he was using around 70%) OR LEAVE.*
        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      Litteraly nothing had been refuted.

      Don't whine about ad hominem when the worst that happened here was people being obnoxious and you're just as guilty as everyone else here.

      Yes, you made yourself very clear, you just didn't provide any evidence for any of the claim you made against the upgrade.

      The counter arguments others have made, and the ones I made, disagree. And mine still havent been countered yet. 

      >When the worst that happened here was people being obnoxious

      No, the worst that happened here is your side throwing insults and temper tantrums just because we disagree with a verse some like to treat as some holy grail who should be given a pass on anything and everything DB related. And just so everyone knows, I myself made a thread similar to this a while ago when I first came here about whether or not the Beerus and Goku feat should be Low 2-C and it was rejected. That should be very telling, but whatever.

      And its not up to me to provide evidence to disprove the upgrade. Its your burden of proof to prove your upgrade is even plausible. Your side has simply done a very lackluster job of it, twisting context and assumptions to fit your narrative like a bowl of spaghetti.

        Loading editor
    • Xerkser500 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      Litteraly nothing had been refuted.

      Don't whine about ad hominem when the worst that happened here was people being obnoxious and you're just as guilty as everyone else here.

      Yes, you made yourself very clear, you just didn't provide any evidence for any of the claim you made against the upgrade.

      The counter arguments others have made, and the ones I made, disagree. And mine still havent been countered yet. 

      >When the worst that happened here was people being obnoxious

      No, the worst that happened here is your side throwing insults and temper tantrums just because we disagree with a verse some like to treat as some holy grail who should be given a pass on anything and everything DB related. And just so everyone knows, I myself made a thread similar to this a while ago when I first came here about whether or not the Beerus and Goku feat should be Low 2-C and it was rejected. That should be very telling, but whatever.

      And its not up to me to provide evidence to disprove the upgrade. Its your burden of proof to prove your upgrade is even plausible. Your side has simply done a very lackluster job of it, twisting context and assumptions to fit your narrative like a bowl of spaghetti.

      'counters argument', saying 'no it's not' isn't a counter argument.

      'others and the ones i made' don't try to claim you're the majority here, there is litteraly 3 of you.

      Your point were addressed and i debunked them myself multiple time, just because you copy pasted them in an unreadable form doesn't make them suddenly valid

      Show me the insults ? they are like your evidence it seems, non existent, meanwhile that very comment of yours is an obvious proof of what i said about people being obnoxious, get off that high horse.

      Except that as far as i'm concerned, all i see is you being obnoxious and getting on your high horse just because someone was obnoxious back.

      Yeah, getting a pass, because having evidence for an upgrade is asking for a pass

      No one cares about your backstory.

      Except you do have to present proof for your claims, just like we presented proof for ours but litteraly all you could do is say 'no it's not'.

      Prove it, prove the context is twisted and show the assumptions, if it's so obvious why did none of you even come close to doing it and why did you all suddenly drop the assumptions thing and acting like nothing happened when i pointed out all the assumption YOUR side was making compared to the 'assumption' the upgrade was making ?

        Loading editor
    • Stop or I’ll have to get someone in here to make yall

        Loading editor
    • Ted Ed wrote: Oh my. Goku can keeo up with someone that couldnt have holded back infinitely that is low 2-c!

      That means he is 3-A! Obviously. Get that bad argument out of here.

      • PROVE BEERUS HELD BACK INFINITELY (Even when he himself stated he was using around 70%) OR LEAVE.*

      DB doesn’t treat the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite. In fact if anything, this would only make Low 2-C DB scaling more questionable when nobody has demonstrated any feats on that level and are only there because of Jiren being said to be the stronkest.

        Loading editor
    • You just failed to back up yoir argument. So it should be dismissed.

        Loading editor
    • This needs to be closed.

        Loading editor
    • I will close this then

        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.