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  • Matthew Schroeder
    Matthew Schroeder closed this thread because:
    Resolved.
    20:44, August 24, 2016

    Now, the following calculation is for the KE of Papyrus' Absolutely Normal Attack.

    [[1]]

    The reasoning for this calc is that Papyrus is stronger than Napstablock who has a relativistic feat. While it is seemingly sound that Papyrus scales to Napsta's relativistic feat, the calc itself is not.

    The calc is utilizing calc stacking from another calc putting Napstablock at relativistic speed, while Papyrus' bones haven't been calced at moving at relativistic speeds.

    What this means? Undertale probably could do with a downgrade.

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    • Yeah I agree

      It's blatant calc stacking

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    • There is no calc for Napstablook applied in the Papyrus calc. As far as I'm aware, it used generic relativistic values in order to get both lower and higher ends. You can ask Saikou, since he put the calc together.

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    • There is a major problem with assuming Papyrus randomly threw them at relativistic speeds

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    • Also, it's kinda hypocritical we dismiss things like the FF Vegeta calc but not this. Can you go ask him to comment?

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    • Verivici
      Verivici removed this reply because:
      a
      18:09, April 17, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • @Des

      I don't know why he wouldn't when he was trying to capture Frisk, unless he just decided to fight reeeeaaaallllly slowly.

      @HIT IT

      Which FF Vegeta calc?

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    • So Vulkin's thunderbolts are Relativistic+, too?

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      So Vulkin's thunderbolts are Relativistic+, too?

      Depends. Is Vulkin stronger than Papyrus (I legitimately cannot remember)? If so, then there's a good chance they might be. If not, probably not.

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    • @Azathoth

      Papyrus is kind of a nice guy. You just spent the past few puzzles bonding with him, complimenting him, and maybe even saying what a cool guy he was. There is no evidence that Frisk had trouble dodging it, there's no evidence that the bones themselves traveled at relativistic speeds, no evidence of Papyrus throwing the bones at relativistic speeds. The speed itself wasn't even scaled off Papyrus himself, it was scaled from Napstablook's light dodge. Now, I'm not saying Papyrus needs to have his speed downgraded, but his ANA should, because there's no evidence for relativistic speeds. In fact, there are many manga that could benefit from such calcs, like if we assume that rocks in JOJO are being thrown at relativistic speeds.

      Besides, the bone was scaled improperly. It was scaled off the soul which has no direct measurement or indication of its size, instead of being scaled off Papyrus.

      Also, there's no evidence of the surroundings being destroyed, which also makes island level seem really doubtful, especially when the Monster Realm only looks to be the size of a big city to a small island.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      HIT IT wrote:
      So Vulkin's thunderbolts are Relativistic+, too?
      Depends. Is Vulkin stronger than Papyrus (I legitimately cannot remember)? If so, then there's a good chance they might be. If not, probably not.

      Vulkin's ATK is higher than his.

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    • Most of this was already dealt with before.

      Things like "No damage was done" or "Thunder can't be Relat+" could be applied to many fictions to "downgrade" them.

      As for the measurement, no reasons to calc it from Papyrus, as we see the Annoying Dog appear in battle himself.

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    • @Tivanenk

      Papyrus bonded with you, yes. That's why he only tries to capture you and halfheartedly seal you in a shed as opposed to severely hurting or killing you. He's still TRYING to win, though. He even tires himself out by the end of the fight, and that would seem odd if he was really holding back by that much.

      As for thrown objects being of that speed, well...yeah. They kinda have to be. When DIO throws knives at Jotaro and Joseph, there's absolutely no way they've have trouble dealing with said knives if they weren't moving at FTL speeds.

      We really shouldn't go into the surroundings being destroyed, thing. That's such an absurdly common trope in fiction, and as always, Dragon Ball is a prime example. The Monster Realm is also likely larger than what we get to see (considering Frisk essentially takes a relatively straight path to their goal), and literally EVERY monster has to live down there.

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    • But the thing is, you can't arbitrarily take a speed and paste it into an equation without proof of it. It either needs to be stated, or derived from on panel showings. This seems like an abuse of stacking. There is literally no indication for island level other than an arbitrarily taken KE calc.


      By the way, for the JOJO point, Jotaro and Joseph don't move at FTL speeds.

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    • It's blatantly calc stacking though

      Also yes they do

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    • Tivanenk wrote:
      But the thing is, you can't arbitrarily take a speed and paste it into an equation without proof of it. It either needs to be stated, or derived from on panel showings. This seems like an abuse of stacking. There is literally no indication for island level other than an arbitrarily taken KE calc.


      By the way, for the JOJO point, Jotaro and Joseph don't move at FTL speeds.

      The speed value isn't arbitrary, though. In fact, I'm pretty sure almost the entire relativistic range was used, and the results were nearly the same for everything. It didn't take a specific value calced for Napstablook and throw it in there.

      Yes they do. They can't run at FTL speeds. They can react and fight at them, though. This is shown numerous times. Someone with FTL reactions is going to be able to pluck 1000 knives out of the air if they're not thrown at a speed at least close to what their reactions top at.

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    • Des not to be rude but I'd be cool if you bringed more to the conversation than just "yes it's calc stacking lol"

      Also yeah the whole Jojo deals is because everything is FTL or so. Unless we get a near-lightspeed thing (But not to close) KE can't really be used,

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    • Why do you assume Papyrus is magically throwing his bones at Rel+ speeds?

      Also I legit told you every time and you just denied it completely so

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    • I didn't ignore you. You just said "It's calc stacking" without really bringing me proof that using non-calc values is considered calc stacking too.

      Why wouldn't he be? He's actively trying to beat someone who at that point should be stronger than Napstablook.

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    • "For example, if X was calced to be mach 5 from a bullet - timing feat, and Y speedblitzed X, a calc stacker would use mach 5 as X's speed to calc the speed of Y."

      Here's an example of calc stacking using an exact value from a previous calc, which this calc didn't do. I need to take a nap. You guys play nice and debate this while I'm gone, or whatever.

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    • It's the exact same thing.

      Also - yes - yes you did. You denied every piece of proof I gave.

      Because it's calc stacking. That's the problem here/. Also, the bones move slower than Frisk's heart.

      Also, was Frisk even faster than Napstablook back then?

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    • ..See? You're doing the same thing as before. Repeating a statement until you convince the other side doesn't work.

      As far as I know no it isn't the exact same thing.

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    • What lol

      You're doing the exact same thing.

      If you follow common sense it generally is. It's stacking.

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    • I uh... don't mean to butt in, but according to Napstablook's profile, the Relativistic speed thing is not based on a calc but a feat by Napstablook (closing the blinds before sunlight reaches him)

      So... not calc stacking.

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    • I don't get how that's remotely related?

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    • Yeah but I'm repeating the act of asking you to gimme proof of it being stacking, and your only answers have been "It is" or "It's common sense lol".

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    • It's feat stacking then. I don't get how naming it wrongly changes much.

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    • I mean, the premise of calc stacking is that the results of one calc is used to define another. However, since no such calc is used to define Napstablook's feat, then it's technically not calc stacking.

      What IS potentially fallacious is whether or not there is evidence that Papyrus's bones move as fast as everyone else fights at (I haven't played Undertale, so I don't really have a say on this).

      The whole idea of "feat stacking" would imply that feats aren't applicable to each other. For example, if a character is confirmed in story to fly at Mach 22 (in-story statement, mind you) then by this logic it would be fallacious to use said speed to calculate the KE of the missiles flying alongside said character.

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    • Because Calcs can be used to get more precise (and often higher) numbers, the process which could be used to bump stats up infinitely.

      Here, well, it uses a value gotten from a non-calc (And instead using approximate values instead of calc values, which would be impossible to get in this case).

      Pretty much like using mutlipiers.

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    • I'm against using multipliers actually.

      Also, I'm against using stat multipliers

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    • Well IIRC stats multipliers happens here so...

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    • ImagoDesattrolante wrote:

      Also, Im pretty sure Napstablook's feat wasn't calced.

      I think this is what we've be trying to tell you, since it was a flash of light that reached across the Underground that gave Napstablook this speed, who everyone else is scaled to due to Napstablook being a relatively poor fighter by comparison.

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    • Is it calcable?

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    • Nah.

      We don't know his initial position.

      His Windows placement is downright inconsistent.

      No clue if he closed 1 or 2 blinds.

      Etc.

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    • Hmmm... technically Imago is right here I would think, the general rule, as far as I am concerned, to this point is that KE calcs have to use an specifically quantified speed value to work (the OBD is actually harder in that point, as they even demand a quantified speed that doesn't assume any timeframes in the process).

      I don't remember if there are any precedence cases where we applied or have not applied that principal.


      Hmm... I don't have time currently, but there should probably be a general (not on the undertale topic focused) thread be made in which this standards are discussed. This rules are established, but I don't think there ever was a discussion specifically about them. Personally I would certainly be in favor of keeping them in the way we have.


      Edit: Oh and not calced feats don't get a form of special privilegs. It might be a different thing with statements (even though the assumption that the characters move the same speed the whole time also doesn't necessarily work for those), but not calced feats have to follow the same rules.

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    • Bump.

      This is calc stacking. End of story.

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    • DontTalk wrote: (the OBD is actually harder in that point, as they even demand a quantified speed that doesn't assume any timeframes in the process).

      They seem to be getting significantly less hard on that specific rule, as timeframes that aren't specifically quantified will often be accepted as completely fine if there is good reason to assume what they are and not baseless assumption.

      Anyway, back on the main topic, still not seeing how this is a notable case of calc stacking in anything but vague technicality, really. Napstablook performed a rel+ feat, Papyrus scales to him, and thus generic rel+ values were used in the calc. It's not like Napstablook was calced to be exactly 0.9c, and thus the calc used 0.9c, or that it was assumed that since Papyrus is at least twice as strong as Napstablook, he is obviously also twice as fast, and then proceeded to improperly scale that to everything else.

      In fact, if this is considered to be calc stacking, then it's certainly targeted a lot more for a lot less than other things which could be considered such. I genuinely fail to see how Napstablook performing a speed feat and then using generic rel+ values to calc AP for Papyrus is considered to be some egregious use of calc stacking, while using multipliers on calced results is deemed as okay. It demonstrates pretty clear double standard, or at the very least some kind of odd, unfair leniency to calcs violating the same rules but using a more obtuse thought process, while the biggest assumption made in this one is "Napstablook can move at Relativistic speeds, so an all around much more powerful character likely should be able to, as well".

      Regardless, ground rules can be discussed for things like this in general, though at this point, I don't know how much help I'd be if it comes to Undertale. I am so incredibly burned out on the whole topic that I really couldn't care less what everyone is put at, for what reason, or if I vehemently agree or disagree with said reasons.

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    • How can we be sure its rel+ if it's uncalcable?

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    • We can't really, that's just an assumption based on KK.

      In fact FTL seems pretty likely if we take Flowey's flash of light as actual sunlight

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    • Well being FTL is actually pretty unlikely given that most monsters near the source of the light were unable to escape.

      Meanwhile it's actually pretty unlikely to be simply Relat sice Napstablook apparently had to close 2 blinds, and the light was very close at that time.

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    • This is indeed calc stacking. Undertale was better as 7-B to 7-A

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    • Question, if we downgrade Undertale tiers does that mean their speed goes down too? Or just their AP and Durability and such? 

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    • I believe just their AP and durability. They are scaled from Papyrus IIRC. The speed is from Napstablook I think.

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    • Okay then. Well, reading the definition of calc stacking I agree with the OP. Downgrade seems fine to me. 

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    • So four people in favor, one not.

      Anyone else wanna say anything?

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    • Bump.

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    • Yes, this is calc stacking. I support its removal.

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    • So counting me it seems there's actually 6 people here who support this.

      How many do we need to put this in effect?

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    • Have to say, I agree with the OP and others here.

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    • 7 for, 1 against.

      I think we've pretty much reached a consensus.

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    • It might not technically be calc stacking, but its the same general idea. I agree with the removal of it.

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    • I'm for the removal as well. It's technically not "calc stacking" but it follows the same principle

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    • 9 for, 1 against.

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    • I also agree that it's calc stacking, and that it's hypocritical to allow this yet not other similar cases

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    • I redid the calculation using the actual game mechanics this time. Here.

      http://www.t5forums.com/forum/the-vs-sections/general-discussion/calcs/213208-papyrus-absolutely-normal-attack-ke-calc-now-with-a-giant-yea

      This is an absolute pain to calc btw. Never doing Undertale calcs again.

      So, is there a proper feat that places Undertale characters at least above tier 8, if there are any at all?

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    • If that goes through, it would be the downgrade to end all downgrades

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    • There's Tsunderplane but using your method it'd come out to Building level most likely. IMO it's a bit more consistent with Overworld feats (Undyne breaking boulders and such) so yeah

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    • Yes, it is calc stacking,

      If you know any more examples of something like this on the wiki, please point them out.

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    • You could pull of City Block with Tsunderplane.

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    • IDK if Tsunderplane can really count though. We know they're bombs but we don't know how powerful they are until someone calcs them. Assuming they're all MOABs isn't exactly a good way of thinking.

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    • No one can calc them, that's the thing.

      Thus we have to rely on accurate assumptions.

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    • We can calc them based on the one assumption that Frisk's heart = Frisk's height, that's all we need really.

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    • KE? That wouldn't even get building level, most likely.

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    • Still more accurate than a high-end assumption.

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    • Likely

      But that would only be the weight of it.

      Bombs explode. And we don't catch the explosion do we

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    • Then find various bombs the US military uses and go on that. Possibly an average or a low-end of the energy of those bombs.

      If we go under the assumption that Frisk's soul = Frisk's height we could find what would be needed to generate a fireball the size of the battle-board and use that as an absolute high-end.

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    • Now that we have reached consensus, can we temporarily edit the profiles to their previous values and then we can discuss TP's power in another thread?

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    • This is a quick calc for Vulkin's lightning as suggested by Imago

      Frisk's Height - 1.22 m

      Frisk's Weight - 41.5037 kg. (assuming Frisk is female) 39.9161 kg. (assuming Frisk is male)

      http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-weight-teens.shtml (source for that)

      http://www.cato.eu/body-surface-area-children-1.html

      Low End Surface Area - 1.1643 m^2

      High End Surface Area - 1.1787 m^2

      Temperature of Lightning - 29999 Kelvin (according to Google)

      http://www.endmemo.com/physics/radenergy.php

      Using emissivity of 0.9 (as suggested by Imago)


      Low End - 48119109074.098 J/s or 11.05 tons of TNT

      High End - 48714243636.21 J/s or 11.6 tons of TNT

      Since the attack lasts about 2 seconds that'd be multiplied by 2 presumably, giving 22.1 tons of TNT for the low end and 23.2 tons of TNT for the high-end. Either way it's City-Block level Undertale, the justification just needs to be changed.

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    • hey i actually found something. cool

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    • OK, we can put that in.

      Can someone edit the profiles now?

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    • You need an admin and a calc member to weigh in the recent changes.

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    • Can you contact Sheoth and Kkapoios about this for me, they are an admin and a calc group member

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    • Saikou The Lewd King wrote:
      snip

      Didn't you have a calc using just Napstablook and nothing else, btw?

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    • Even if he did it's still gaining KE from a speed feat which is rarely ever used except in the case of large monstrous creatures like dragons and giants

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    • LordXcano wrote:
      Even if he did it's still gaining KE from a speed feat which is rarely ever used except in the case of large monstrous creatures like dragons and giants

      Being rarely used does not make something entirely unusable, though. If the result is still significantly greater than other calcs not using it, then I don't see why it should be ignored.

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    • Except for the fact that if the result is far greater than the other calcs that means it is most likely an outlier on top of it being very difficult to push for KE gained from a separate speed feat?

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    • Wait a second, I thought using KE for Mass x Velocity was expressedly a fine thing to do in cases of character speed as long as the mass was connected to the attacker in question, and that this has been done numerous times now? In that case, wouldn't we just substitute the bone with one of the monsters or something?

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    • Not sure how it would be an outlier if none of the other calcs it's being compared to use the same speed for the KE. Not to mention the fact that in this case, the KE isn't from a separate speed feat. As I already said, it's just for Napstablook's movement, in general.

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    • Just a question, how do we know that Napsta didn't just teleport for the light feat? He teleported to meet up with Frisk to get to the snail farm. If he could run, or float, that fast, why didn't he?

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    • There was a calc for napstablook's headphones moving at rel speeds iirc, and a calc could likely be made for the KE of Frisk dodging light from knight knight's sun as well. Ah I found the calc: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:250922

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Just a question, how do we know that Napsta didn't just teleport for the light feat? He teleported to meet up with Frisk to get to the snail farm. If he could run, or float, that fast, why didn't he?

      Because Napstablook would still need to actually close the blinds, even if they teleported to reach them. Not to mention they only ever seem to teleport to locations outside their present area, but that's besides the point.

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    • Alakabamm wrote:

      If you know any more examples of something like this on the wiki, please point them out.

      Presumably a bunch of the early DBZ speeds. Along with likely having to replace speed justifications for everything Frieza level onwards with more recent calcs.

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    • Wait a second, I thought using KE for Mass x Velocity was expressedly a fine thing to do in cases of character speed as long as the mass was connected to the attacker in question, and that this has been done numerous times now? In that case, wouldn't we just substitute the bone with one of the monsters or something?

      No, not as far as I remember.


      'N'ot sure how it would be an outlier if none of the other calcs it's being compared to use the same speed for the KE. Not to mention the fact that in this case, the KE isn't from a separate speed feat. As I already said, it's just for Napstablook's movement, in general.


      See the above teleport comment. Plus it's scaling Napsta's attacks to his speed despite him "not feeling up to it" and then further using relativistic KE to gain a result way higher than anything that is normally done.

      and a calc could likely be made for the KE of Frisk dodging light from knight knight's sun as well

      There's no proof that was light, which is why Napsta is used for all the scaling

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    • At any rate, I'll look into this more later for sure. Been meaning to for a while...

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      See the above teleport comment. 

      See above reply to the teleport comment. 

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      Presumably a bunch of the early DBZ speeds. Along with likely having to replace speed justifications for everything Frieza level onwards with more recent calcs.

      I don't understand. Are you saying their AP is derived from KE due to speed, not their own feats and power level scaling?

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    • Alright I'll accept that, but I still don't accept using relativistic KE from a separate speed feat to justify bumping an entire verse up to a Island tier when all the other feats are far below that (excluding end-game)

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    • Alakabamm wrote:

      I don't understand. Are you saying their AP is derived from KE due to speed, not their own feats and power level scaling?

      Nononono. Only speeds, there. For instance, Vegeta's speed being based off of multipliers applied to the specific result of a calced speed feat, SSJ Goku's speed being based off of multipliers applied to said multipliers of the initial speed feat, etc.

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    • LordXcano wrote:
      Alright I'll accept that, but I still don't accept using relativistic KE from a separate speed feat to justify bumping an entire verse up to a Island tier when all the other feats are far below that (excluding end-game)

      Like I said, this other calc only uses Napstablook, and the results are significantly below Island level.

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    • @Azathoth The thing he's questioning is getting AP from KE, not using multipliers to get new stats.

      Also even if it is only Napsta it still shouldn't fly. The Flash can easily go 0.99999999c based on assumptions that have far more evidence backing it up than relativistic Napsta in the first place, but Multi-Galactic Flash isn't going to fly because it's over-inflated from his other feats

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    • LordXcano wrote:
      @Azathoth The thing he's questioning is getting AP from KE, not using multipliers to get new stats.

      Also even if it is only Napsta it still shouldn't fly. The Flash can easily go 0.99999999c based on assumptions that have far more evidence backing it up than relativistic Napsta in the first place, but Multi-Galactic Flash isn't going to fly because it's over-inflated from his other feats

      He asked for examples of calc stacking, which that blatantly is.

      False equivalence. Flash frequently achieves speeds vastly beyond the speed of light, hence we don't assume he's going 0.999999999999999(repeating)c and becoming multi-galaxy level. Not to mention when he specifically DOES stuff like this in the comics, the results are dwarf star level.

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    • He could though. Scaling itself presupposes that opponents are using their best and greatest when fighting bloodlusted. I can easily ask "Why wouldn't Flash move 0.9999999999999999999c when bloodlusted?" and it'd still be more justified than this.

      This is assuming they're always going relativistic speeds when fighting non-bloodlusted, that relativistic speed can be used in combat despite feats in-game having far lower showings, and that relativistic speed based on a single feat that can be interpreted in multiple ways isn't an outlier.

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    • Wait, so is this a speed and AP downgrade thread, or just an AP?

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    • LordXcano wrote:
      snip

      Except, again, Flash consistently moves well beyond the speed of light, and when he DOES something to this effect in canon, it results in dwarf star level. So again, no. Not justified. Not the same. Not even close.

      Except it's not, though? It's not even using things that happen in battle. At all. You don't even need to assume Napstablook was fighting to his fullest (which he wasn't) because it doesn't even use the Napstablook battle.

      I've also been over why the whole "it can be interpreted differently" thing is total bullshit. Like, a very, very, veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrryyyy great number of times. On multiple threads. With multiple answers. Screaming "outlier" doesn't automatically invalidate something simply because you want it to.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Wait, so is this a speed and AP downgrade thread, or just an AP?

      Solely AP, which was even mentioned in the OP. "While it is seemingly sound that Papyrus scales to Napsta's relativistic feat, the calc itself is not."

      Not to mention I've been over why "lol outlier" doesn't work, here.

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    • Not to mention I've been over why "lol outlier" doesn't work, here.

      Then why is Roshi not Moon level for Dragon Ball? Because other characters could only destroy islands? Easy, AP != AoE. Same justification being given here.

      I've also been over why the whole "it can be interpreted differently" thing is total bullshit. Like, a very, very, veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrryyyy great number of times.

      Doesn't necessarily invalidate it. The best explanation I've seen you give is someone teleported to the door to knock on it, but given the lack of mention or motivation for anyone to knock on the door Occam's Razor would say the light did it.

      Except, again, Flash consistently moves well beyond the speed of light, and when he DOES something to this effect in canon, it results in dwarf star level. So again, no. Not justified. Not the same. Not even close.

      Fine, MMH can go 0.99999999999999c too. Same with Superman. And they don't have the IMP "white dwarf" statement do they? Also, going FTL doesn't mean that they suddenly can't go a lesser speed.

      Except it's not, though? It's not even using things that happen in battle. At all. You don't even need to assume Napstablook was fighting to his fullest (which he wasn't) because it doesn't even use the Napstablook battle.

      The calc explicitly uses headphones moving at relativistic speed. I can only assume this is in-battle.

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      Then why is Roshi not Moon level for Dragon Ball? Because other characters could only destroy islands? Easy, AP != AoE. Same justification being given here.

      Doesn't necessarily invalidate it. The best explanation I've seen you give is someone teleported to the door to knock on it, but given the lack of mention or motivation for anyone to knock on the door Occam's Razor would say the light did it.

      Fine, MMH can go 0.99999999999999c too. Same with Superman. And they don't have the IMP "white dwarf" statement do they? Also, going FTL doesn't mean that they suddenly can't go a lesser speed.

      The calc explicitly uses headphones moving at relativistic speed. I can only assume this is in-battle.

      Because other characters STRUGGLED to destroy much less, later on. See the difference, here? If it was only because other characters didn't show off as much destruction, Frieza's Low 4-C feat would be an outlier and nobody in DBZ would go beyond planet level.

      Except, ya know, that's dishonest and it doesn't if you actually pay attention to the context of the game.

      MMH goes much faster than light, regularly. So does Superman. Nobody is arguing they can't. The argument is that they don't do things like this, often. And when they do, again, the result is much, much, much less.

      Not in battle. Out of battle. Napstablook doesn't even wear headphones in battle, and his rel+ feat isn't from battle, either. No idea why you'd think this was from his battle.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote:
      Wait, so is this a speed and AP downgrade thread, or just an AP?

      Solely AP, which was even mentioned in the OP. "While it is seemingly sound that Papyrus scales to Napsta's relativistic feat, the calc itself is not."

      Not to mention I've been over why "lol outlier" doesn't work, here.

      Ok good. I was also tired of the lol not relativistic threads. However, I do have easily answered Chara questions I'm probably gonna ask you in person, so to speak. I'm too scared of being hated to make a thread about it.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Ok good. I was also tired of the lol not relativistic threads. However, I do have easily answered Chara questions I'm probably gonna ask you in person, so to speak. I'm too scared of being hated to make a thread about it.

      Go ahead, whenever you want. Honestly anything that isn't "lol outlier" is welcome, at this point.

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    • Because other characters STRUGGLED to destroy much less, later on. See the difference, here? If it was only because other characters didn't show off as much destruction, Frieza's Low 4-C feat would be an outlier and nobody in DBZ would go beyond planet level.

      Cell struggled to find an android in a series of islands when he could've just busted them all IIRC (or perhaps that was anime filler).

      Except, ya know, that's dishonest and it doesn't if you actually pay attention to the context of the game.

      Except that was your explanation for it.

      MMH goes much faster than light, regularly. So does Superman. Nobody is arguing they can't. The argument is that they don't do things like this, often. And when they do, again, the result is much, much, much less.

      Proof it's less?

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      Cell struggled to find an android in a series of islands when he could've just busted them all IIRC (or perhaps that was anime filler).

      Except that was your explanation for it.

      Proof it's less?

      Unrelated? Also, remember how Cell was doing a lot of messing around and taunting due to that being completely in his character?

      Except no it wasn't? You said the best explanation was that the light did it. I said it wasn't. Never was "the light did it" my explanation.

      See almost every IMP statement ever.

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    • Unrelated? Also, remember how Cell was doing a lot of messing around and taunting due to that being completely in his character?

      Lemme use a better one then. Thor containing the power to destroy 1/5th of the universe. Since comics are subject to intense PIS, I could easily argue that everyone is Multi-Galactic scaling from the Godblast and that situations of struggle are PIS.

      Except no it wasn't? You said the best explanation was that the light did it. I said it wasn't. Never was "the light did it" my explanation.

      Yeah I know. Why would anyone else but the light knock on the door? What would the motivation be?

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      Lemme use a better one then. Thor containing the power to destroy 1/5th of the universe. Since comics are subject to intense PIS, I could easily argue that everyone is Multi-Galactic scaling from the Godblast and that situations of struggle are PIS.

      Yeah I know. Why would anyone else but the light knock on the door? What would the motivation be?

      Again, unrelated? Though you might be replying to a different point and I might be missing something, but the initial subject was outliers, not PIS.

      -cough-AsrielandFlowey-cough-.

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    • Again, unrelated? Though you might be replying to a different point and I might be missing something, but the initial subject was outliers, not PIS.

      No. I'm asking why everyone in Marvel isn't upgraded to Multi-Galactic. There's a 1/5th universe level thing right there, and all the inconsistencies can be handwaved as PIS. We don't do it because none of the other feats even compare to that, so it's an outlier. No other feats (aside from end-game) even compare to relativistic speed. You see what I'm getting at?

      -cough-AsrielandFlowey-cough-.

      All that's doing is naming who you say knocked on the door. It gives no explanation as to why they'd feel the need to.

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      No. I'm asking why everyone in Marvel isn't upgraded to Multi-Galactic. There's a 1/5th universe level thing right there, and all the inconsistencies can be handwaved as PIS. We don't do it because none of the other feats even compare to that, so it's an outlier. No other feats (aside from end-game) even compare to relativistic speed. You see what I'm getting at?

      All that's doing is naming who you say knocked on the door. It gives no explanation as to why they'd feel the need to.

      Except, again, unrelated. I've quite literally just explained this. Remember how Roshi's moon-bust is considered an outlier due to much stronger characters repeatedly struggling to destroy less? It's literally the exact same, here. Exactly the same. Other people not having a rel+ feat does not make it an outlier since there's no point in which something of significantly less speed is considered incredibly hard to dodge or any point at which this is mentioned to be an absurdly high speed unexpected to be achieved. Context is a huge thing, here.

      Because as I've said before, I explained this a bunch in many other threads and didn't want to clog this one, but at this point, fuck it. Flowey has already shown the ability to pop up wherever he wants to in the Underground. Both Flowey and (by extension) Asriel have shown to have a penchant for toying around and taunting other people. Asriel, pretty much immediately after this, transcends time and can be wherever and do whatever he wants. The light got to every other monster in the Underground anyway, regardless of whether they were inside a building/closed off room or not, making the knocking superfluous. Light itself does not stop to knock on doors. See what I'm getting at, here?

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    • Just for the record, comic book characters isn't exactly a fair comparison for your argument since they more or less just have the winner of direct conflicts be A: what would best fit the narrative, and B: who they like more. There's a reason we have entirely seperate rules for Power-scaling for comics, just saying.

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    • LordXcano wrote:

      No. I'm asking why everyone in Marvel isn't upgraded to Multi-Galactic. There's a 1/5th universe level thing right there, and all the inconsistencies can be handwaved as PIS. We don't do it because none of the other feats even compare to that, so it's an outlier. No other feats (aside from end-game) even compare to relativistic speed. You see what I'm getting at?



      All that's doing is naming who you say knocked on the door. It gives no explanation as to why they'd feel the need to.

      1) did you even read the page on scaling with marvel or DC??  we have special rules for them because they are super inconsistent. 

      2) Flowey/Asriel were literally trying to capture every single soul in the underground with that, that's why he possesed interest in entering napsta's house.

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    • Alright, now I'm just confused... The knocking was superfluous? Why didn't it get Napstablook then?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Alright, now I'm just confused... The knocking was superfluous? Why didn't it get Napstablook then?

      because he closed any enterance the light coould have used

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Alright, now I'm just confused... The knocking was superfluous? Why didn't it get Napstablook then?

      Because he actually closed the blinds, which is part of the reason the feat is important in the first place. Also important to note that he was literally the only combat capable monster not at the epicenter of Flowey's attack. Everyone else are random civilians who don't fight and didn't directly befriend Frisk.

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    • I was going to say "but you said characters in closed up rooms got got," but the fact that you said he's the only combat applicable one satisfied me.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      I was going to say "but you said characters in closed up rooms got got," but the fact that you said he's the only combat applicable one satisfied me.

      "Closed up rooms" as in rooms that almost certainly had windows, as it doesn't seem like anyone in the Underground stays in totally isolated dark spaces, most of the time. Then again, even with rooms that might not have had windows, there seems to be other ways to get in (for instance, rooms in the MTT hotel have enough space under each door for a hotdog to fit under, making it incredibly easy for the light to slip in, through there.

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    • Well, there are the Ruins, and judging by its background, I'm pretty sure that it had no other exits or windows. But that could be because we only see it from one angle.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Well, there are the Ruins, and judging by its background, I'm pretty sure that it had no other exits or windows. But that could be because we only see it from one angle.

      Frisk befriended everyone in the Ruins, though. The only ones who lived there were Toriel and the enemies like Froggit, who all showed up for the final battle.

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    • That's true. I can't think of any exceptions. Umm... Maybe Glyde. And I don't even know where and/or how to meet So Sorry.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      That's true. I can't think of any exceptions. Umm... Maybe Glyde. And I don't even know where and/or how to meet So Sorry.

      Something about going somewhere in Hotland and setting your clock to a specific date and time. Also, I think the light can also pass through the Ruins through the small opening in the door, seeing Muffet said the spiders could pass through it, but the cold would kill them. 

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    • So, here's an absolutely wild and crazy idea.

      Instead of discussing the same tired points about human speed city block level Undertale that I've debunked literally over a dozen times, why don't we take the Napstablook calc (which objectively does not use any type of calc stacking whatsoever), check up on it to make sure all the math is solid/make any tweaks that need to be made, and apply that, instead?

      Also going to note that unlike the Papyrus calc (which only directly scales to everyone Waterfall and onwards, the Napstablook calc applies to everyone after the Ruins (90% of everyone in the game), meaning we don't have to guess for everyone lower than Papyrus level. It also pretty much puts everyone back at levels similar to what I had them at originally and only uses one feat performed by one low-tier character.

      If there are legitimate complaints with this (that I haven't already covered numerous times), then I would like to hear them, but to me, this seems like the best idea. Thoughts?

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      So, here's an absolutely wild and crazy idea.

      Instead of discussing the same tired points about human speed city block level Undertale that I've debunked literally over a dozen times, why don't we take the Napstablook calc (which objectively does not use any type of calc stacking whatsoever), check up on it to make sure all the math is solid/make any tweaks that need to be made, and apply that, instead?

      Also going to note that unlike the Papyrus calc (which only directly scales to everyone Waterfall and onwards, the Napstablook calc applies to everyone after the Ruins (90% of everyone in the game), meaning we don't have to guess for everyone lower than Papyrus level. It also pretty much puts everyone back at levels similar to what I had them at originally and only uses one feat performed by one low-tier character.

      If there are legitimate complaints with this (that I haven't already covered numerous times), then I would like to hear them, but to me, this seems like the best idea. Thoughts?

      Seems fine to me. Also, no offense, but you sound so done right now XD 

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    • MarvelFanatic119 wrote:

      Seems fine to me. Also, no offense, but you sound so done right now XD 

      I am ridiculously done. Not even from any one thing in particular. Mainly just from the fact that I've had to be a part of a hilariously large amount of Undertale threads since I started making the profiles for it, and now, after all this time, it may turn out that the tiers I originally thought to be best were right, the whole time. lol

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    • Do you need a hug, Azzy lol? But in all seriousness, I feel for ya.

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    • Azzy needs all the hugs.

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    • So uh, does this mean the Final Flash calc that Fan wanted to use Vegeta's ap in is legal here?

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      Azzy needs all the hugs.

      FIGHT >ACT ITEM MERCY 

      *Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

      *Hug

      *You hug Azzy.

      *While hugging Azzy to make him feel better, it fills you with determination. 

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    • I do intend to play through one last time, see what I come up with as far as my take on it. This sound fair?

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    • IMG_0383

      If that doesn't show up, it's supposed to be a gif of hugging Asriel at the end of Pacifist.

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      So uh, does this mean the Final Flash calc that Fan wanted to use Vegeta's ap in is legal here?

      I feel like this was mentioned earlier, but I never saw it. Can I get a link?

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    • ThePerpetual wrote:
      I do intend to play through one last time, see what I come up with as far as my take on it. This sound fair?

      As long as it's relatively quick (which it should be, since the game is pretty short), go for it.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      Azzy needs all the hugs.
      Hug

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      I feel like this was mentioned earlier, but I never saw it. Can I get a link?

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Final_Flash_speed_calc

      it was lowballed to planet level, rather than large Star level

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    • The calc itself seems totally fine, to me. Wasn't the issue with it something involving cinematic time, or whatever?

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    • Oh, and Perp, please try to do your playthrough asap. I don't want to rush you in the slightest, but I do want to get this sorted pretty quickly.

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    • I want everyone to keep this thread open. There is an idea that I thought of that can solve the speed of Papyrus' bones and Frisk's speed in general.

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      I want everyone to keep this thread open. There is an idea that I thought of that can solve the speed of Papyrus' bones and Frisk's speed in general.

      Sure, but we might end up just going with Napstablook's calc and scaling from that.

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    • What was Napstablook's calc?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      What was Napstablook's calc?

      KE of his movement while wearing headphones, which hilariously enough, is within tier 7. You can ask Saikou for a link to it.

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    • City level KE for moving around with headphones lmao.

      Edit: Seriously though, what was the KE for that feat anyways? Now I'm interested.

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      City level KE for moving around with headphones lmao.

      sad ghost 2 stronk

      pls nerf+ban for 1million year

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    • Crazystarf wrote:

      Edit: Seriously though, what was the KE for that feat anyways? Now I'm interested.

      Small City on average, iirc.

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    • I wish there was a temporary solution until someone comes up with something a wee bit more permanent.

      How about we put at the top of the affected profiles that the statisics are pending revision?

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      I wish there was a temporary solution until someone comes up with something a wee bit more permanent.

      How about we put at the top of the affected profiles that the statisics are pending revision?

      This could be a good idea, though I'd see what others think, as well.

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    • We have a Revision template:

      1ac30e50

      This article is under revision.
      It contains incomplete information.
      You can help VS Battles Wiki by expanding it.

      Just mentioning in case its not known (its not used much after all).

      Code is {{UnderRevision}}

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    • DontTalk wrote:
      snip

      Legit did not even know we had that.

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    • Cool. Good to know.

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    • So shall we use that then if nobody disagrees

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    • Yes, after we get more input.

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    • le bump

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    • Err

      I'm fairly sure the Small City level Nappy calc isn't scalable

      Napstablook is intangible and all

      He assumed a speed as well

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    • Not sure how Napstablook being intangible changes things, since he can still hold objects and put accessories on his being.

      The speed is also the best estimate we have to go by based on the feat. It's not like it's a completely random number taken from nowhere.

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    • Wel it kinda is random.

      Also, it proves that Napstablook didn't tank the KE.

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    • It's not, though. The entire series of events takes place in the timeframe of the flash of light being generated and Asriel assuming his true form, which is an incredibly, incredibly short period of time. Having to work with estimates does not mean it's entirely random.

      He doesn't need to, though. He just needs to be able to generate that level of energy, considering he is one of the weaker combat capable monsters in the Underground.

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    • Hmmm... is it calcstacking to use Frisk for that, since he fought Blook directly?

      If it is, then we use the general Napstablook calc, since although it does make some minor assumptions it's better than nothing. 

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      Hmmm... is it calcstacking to use Frisk for that, since he fought Blook directly?

      If it is, then we use the general Napstablook calc, since although it does make some minor assumptions it's better than nothing. 

      You mean like placing Frisk into the calc? I mean, probably?

      Napstablook is used because he was the one who directly performed said feat.

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    • No calculating him based on his being relativisic.

      It probably is tbh

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      No calculating him based on his being relativisic.

      It probably is tbh

      Napstablook would be the safer bet, primarily because they were the one who performed said feat.

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    • What about that in revision thing?

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    • With regards to Frisk's speed scaling, doesn't Knight Knight summon rays of sunlight or something instead of Napstablook? However, I have my doubts that those fireballs fire at the speed of light anyways, considering Sans' gasterblasters.

      Personally, I think scaling using Napstablook to find Frisk's reactions would be a very bad idea, as there are better feats to choose from with regards to Frisk's speed (as well as Papyrus' bone speed).

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    • Crazystarf wrote:

      Personally, I think scaling using Napstablook to find Frisk's reactions would be a very bad idea, as there are better feats to choose from with regards to Frisk's speed (as well as Papyrus' bone speed).

      Napstablook is used because, being pretty weak by the standards of things that fight you, it scales to a lot of things, and prevents terrible arguments of "lol game mechanics".

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    • If I fully understand calc stacking, it's OK if character A has been calced 0.6c and weigh like 40kg to calc them producing like 7-A level of power when they run at that speed, but not if someone else who scales to them runs.

      Crazystarf apparently thinks that tier 6 inflation shouldn't be considered calc stacking, btw.

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    • If we consider Knight Knight's rays of light to be real light (I don't see why not since it's consistent) someone could calc the speed which Frisk moves compared to them, and the KE of Frisk dodging them, since, you know, they weigh a lot more than a pair of headphones, and that could scale to the stronger characters in the verse. We wouldn't have to get a result using assumptions on the speed in that case. Also if that were the case we'd finally know exactly how fast Frisk is.

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    • What about calcing the KE of the speed at which KK drops the mini-moon? I ASSUME we could scale it to the SOUL, but I'm not sure.

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    • One could actually argue that using game mechanics are necessary to find the speed of moving objects in the game. It makes calculating things much harder, if not downright impossible otherwise.

      Also, I am of the opinion that if you have calculated a speed of a moving object is under the speed of light, you are free to use that velocity to calculate the KE of that object, provided that the said object obeys the laws of physics, and is not intangible (because a ghost would have no mass). So with regards to calculating Frisk's speed, I would highly suggest that: 

      1. Consider that Knight Knight's fireballs are moving at the lightspeed so that you can scale Frisk's speed and possibly speed of other characters as well using an approximate timeframe (those fireballs could have been meteorites from the looks of it, however). This would mean that Sans' Gasterblasters would likely be moving faster than lightspeed.

      2. Consider those fireballs are not moving at lightspeed, and instead, calculate everything using game mechanics in order to find the approximate speed of moving objects instead. For example, find the size of Frisk's soul, pixel-scale it, and find the timeframe it takes for attacks in UT to move from one end to the other end of the battle screen instead. We have used game mechanics to find the combat speed of Raiden from MGS anyways (2nd calc).

      That is my opinion on this matter. I am willing to make a calculation and a blog to further explain point number 2 if necessary.

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    • In UT, the battle board is clearly a representation of what is really happening.

      For example, y'know Sans's attack after he hugs you? Did he really use an undodgeable attack, no it's just a representation of his attack being undogeable at that range. And when Undyne shoots or stabs spears at you and one of them hits you, it clearly doesn't suddenly split into hundreds like it looks on the bullet board that's just a representation of what's happening.

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    • No.

      Using an assumed speed for KE is calc stacking. I don't care what type of justifications or loops or minimizations or whatever is used to disguise that fact. If you get a speed for a character or object based on something relative to them, it is fine to apply KE to it. Extending it anywhere else is calc stacking. 

      Regardless, I am already very iffy about using the KE of a creature traveling at a certain speed, even if the creature is massive and would need such energy to survive. For feats bordering on relativistic, I am doubly so doubtful about using the KE of an entire creature, especially if they don't use full body attacks and haven't shown anything close to it.

      In other words, if we are talking about a town level character to start off with and they suddenly show a tremendous speed boost combined with full body attacks, I would be comfortable with a KE boost from town to, say, city. But from city block to island or anything close? Nope.


      Also, we have established a new, quantitative rule about how relativistic speeds are calculated relative to the KE they produce, such that someone doesn't just use 0.999999999c and get planet level because they feel like it. Check the kinetic energy feats page.

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    • So the napstablook calc is calc stacking because we assume his speed based on a statement of the feat, as opposed to directly seeing him perform the feat? What about determining Frisk's speed relative to the ball of light, and using that to calc KE? He would have to be able to survive moving at those speeds so it should scale to his durability in that instance, and therefor also scale to the AP of Knight Knight and anyone stronger than him.

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    • So, what is yr opinion?

      Should we calc how KK drops dat moon and use that for the high tiers of UT's ke, and then use Napsta for the lower tiers?

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    • I was referring to the bone speed calc as calc stacking.

      Napstablook...my problems with that one have more to deal with the other feats the character has shown and his lack of full body usage as an attack. Keep in mind, I am not opposed to his speed being there, but actually using his speed as it is for a translation from speed to KE. I don't like translating speed to KE and honestly I think it should only be used in the most, blatant blatant of examples.

      There's also the fact that the best feat (correct me if I am wrong) comes from Tsunderplane dropping bombs that are likely town level, city level if we assume nukes which is a rather highball. 

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    • Thing is though that we can't count the number of bombs she drops.

      Stuff on the bullet board is a representation, as has been shown many times.

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    • There's also the fact that the best feat (correct me if I am wrong) comes from Tsunderplane dropping bombs that are likely town level

      Are there any bombs at all that are Town Level? AFAIK the best non-nuclear weapons we have are City Block, which would be consistent with the above Vulkin lightning calc I did

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    • @Xcano: You mean bombs like the MOAB and FOAB kinds?

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    • Yeah, thats' what I mean

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    • The bombs didn't have any effect on the enviroment, so it's unlikely in non-bullet board reality there were many of them.

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    • Assuming we go with nukes instead (maybe), there's those like the Little Boy Nuke here.

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    • Nukes are an assumption with no grounding in reality.

      I STILL think our best best is to use the KK moon drop.

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    • Meh, that;s alright with me. 

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    • It's like, 20% slower than the SOUL tbh. Small City I assume.

      But of course this is all based on the belief that KK's sun bullets were actual beams of sunlight. There has been significant debate on the topic and nothing will change that unless we get complete and utter evidence for it.

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    • Moon drop would require too many assumptions

      Most notable of which being that the magic Moon is the size of the real Moon and has the same mass

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    • LOL it doesn't.

      He's dropping SOMETHING, tho

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    • Yeah obviously, which is why doing it would take far too many assumptions. Even if it filled the entire battleboard and we assumed its a sphere the result would still be lower than the Vulkin's lightning thing.

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    • I don't think we can take the assumption that the moon is moving at rel speeds because it's 20% slower than the soul,if I understand correctly that would be calc stacking. Frisk could also be less determined to dodge this attack all of a sudden I still think that KE of Frisk moving at rel speeds should scale to his durability, but if that's an outlier then I guess we can't use it. Also since tsunderplane can appear with vulkin, I assume that means it can use the attack where it has planes charge at you as vulkin uses its lightning, in which case could KE for those planes be calced?

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    • It is not calc stacking as KK himself has a rel+ attack and his others can be scaled to that.

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    • Well he has a SoL attack, if we assume all his attacks are the same speed we can't get KE, if we don't then we're deriving the speed of the moon from the speed of Frisk's soul which is calc stacking

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    • How fast is the moon compared to his sunlight attack? I'd say about 0.6c at most

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    • Well, firstly comparing the Moon's speed to the assumed sunlight speed and then getting KE is also calc-stacking since it's calcing based on an assumption.

      Plus in order to begin doing that we'd first have to prove that the sunlight attack is in-fact lightspeed despite it meeting none of the qualifications for assuming that.

      http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/198-laser

      Going by this (since it is OBD), the laser is visually seen, that is okay. It does not go in a continuous line, which automatically disqualifies it by the article's measures. The speed is never stated, nor is it ever stated to be light. On top of that, it doesn't meet the last qualification either (a realistic setting or one with scientific inclinations)

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    • Napstablook, papyrus are are calc stacking, KK is non factual, Tsunderplane is unquantifiable, Vulkin's calc is based on bullet board reality, it's bullshit to say that they are tier 9, Lesser Dog is also calc stacking. 

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    • Your proposed methods are based on bullet board reality too.

      If we go purely by Overworld feats then this is a Tier 9 verse. The only non-bullet board feats we have are Undyne suplexing boulders and shaking her house and then timeline resetting IIRC. There are a few very minor bit ones here and there but nothing exceeding Tier 9.

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    • So we have nothing we can put them as except 'Unknown, at least 9-A'?

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    • No, battle board does represent what's happening as Azzy has said at least 100 times. It'd be "Unknown, at least 8-B scaling from Vulkin"

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    • Would calcing tsunderplane's KE based on how fast tsunderplane's charging attack is compared to the bolts of lightning (since they can appear at the same time) result in anything good?

      Also if someone calced Frisk's KE for dodging the light could we put them at possibly whatever the result is, but note that it may be an outlier?

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    • It does represent it, but loosely. Sans didn't whip out a magical un dodge able attack when u spare him, it's just that at that range it is undodgeable, there are also other things such as undyne's spears apparently splitting into dozens when you get hit by one. Normal calc methods do not work for loose interpretations.

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    • Eeeeeeh I guess, but that's where 90% of all the feats come from. I think it'd be safe to say that the Vulkin thing is un-arguably lightning enough though, since he does refer to it as "lightning" in his own flavor text.

      @Blahblah Read the above few messages about the KK thing.

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    • The thing where it lasts for 2 seconds cannot be affirmed as Undyne's spears show bullet board time does not equal real time.

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    • Put it down to 1 second then. It's still City Block, just barely cutting it.

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    • We cannot make any sort of assumption for the time frame sadly

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    • Oh whoops, guess I missed that as I was reading through, but what about the Tsunderplane thing

      And I agree that we shouldn't assume that it's actually 2 seconds, as these are characters who move at rel/rel+ speeds, yet on the bullet board they appear to be moving at human speeds, so it's likely a case of "cinematic timing" or something to that effect

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    • If we assume relativistic speeds then it's likely for a millionth or less of a second in which case we have barely superhuman level Frisk physically, maybe even less

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    • Well real lightning strikes are small building level iirc Even if Frisk only has the determination to be MHS in this instant, it's still much less than a second since "real" lightning appears to be moving around human speeds

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    • I say barely superhuman since even real people can survive lightning strikes, sometimes multiple times. Assuming Frisk is MHS in that instance is, well, an assumption and it's not exactly proper form to assume Frisk is moving a certain speed in order to get higher AP results.

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    • The point is that the lightning is real lightning "by assuming that Frisk is only MHS" I meant assuming that this lightning is only moving at the speed of natural lightning, as opposed to what you're doing which is assuming that he lightning is moving at a few meters per second, an unrealistic assumption. I don't think we can use a timeframe on the bullet board since it seems to abuse cinematic timing, making lightning appear to be moving around human speeds, the attacks of a rel/rel+ character appear to move around human speed, and making immeasurable attacks appear to move at low superhuman

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    • The Undyne thing shows that split seconds in reality can last for seconds on the bullet board.

      Base them off 9a Undyne.

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    • I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place. Admitedly, the game is quite vague, but there are plenty of hints of the characters' powers.

      Firstly, even the weakest monsters are wall level due to harming Frisk who fell dozens, if not hundreds of meters down Mt. Ebott.

      Undyne can crush huge boulders with ease.

      Vulkin attacks with lightning, and do to the nature of the character powers, it is unlikely that it is false lightning.

      Tsunderplane drops plenty of bombs.

      There's the whole bomb Mettaton would have detonated in the Hotlands if not for Alphys deactivating it, and that would have had a Building-sized range, and Mettaton himself is more powerful than that. Building level for that Bomb would be consistent with Vulkin and Tsunderplane.

      I believe that a "At least 8-B" for the Top Tiers (Asgore and Toriel) is acceptable.

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    • If this goes through, there is going to be a drastic power spike between the top tiers and the god tiers.

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    • LordXcano wrote:
      No, battle board does represent what's happening as Azzy has said at least 100 times. It'd be "Unknown, at least 8-B scaling from Vulkin"

      I think this is ideal.

      The God Tiers would remain as they are.

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    • Penguinkingpin wrote:
      If this goes through, there is going to be a drastic power spike between the top tiers and the god tiers.

      Nothing that contradicts it, though.

      SOULs are immensely powerful, as described in the game's lore. And they do have many feats.

      Edit: Also, if you believe that jumping from Tier 8 to Tier 2 is absurd, know that it isn't.

      With existing feats and lore explanations, any jump in power is acceptable. Don't forget that plenty of verses have 10-B characters becoming 1-A.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.

      The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.

      It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.
      The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.

      It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

      We can't ignore them as we'd be ingoring 90% of the game's feats.

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.
      The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.

      It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

      In the fight against Asriel who is a 2-A and omnipresent, his attacks move like molasses while San's gaster blasters move faster than all other attacks in the game, so what are we gonna do, make Sans omnipresent?  

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      HIT IT wrote:
      Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I think we musn't ignore what happens within the gameplay battles, as that is where all of Undertale's combat takes place.
      The gameplay battles are extremely loose interpretations, and cannot be quantified.

      It is quite simply impossible to say 2 sec in bullet board=2 real sec.

      We can't ignore them as we'd be ingoring 90% of the game's feats.

      But we have to, as it has been shown several times that they are very loose interpretations of what is happening in reality. If you get hit by one of undyne's spears during one of those chase sequences, do they suddenly split into a massive rain and hail down on u you for several seconds? No.

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    • Can we at least have the 8-C to At least 8-B ranking based on the fact a character can drop bombs, or can shoot lightning, the Mettaton bomb and plenty of stronger chars?

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    • Most of these feats are unquantifable, we don't know how many bombs Tsunderplane drops nor what type they are. Maybe someone should ask Toby Fox on twitter what they are?

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    • Yes.

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    • OK. How about we ask something like this: "What type of bomb are Tsunderplane's bombs? I'm just kinda curious."

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    • HIT IT wrote:

      But we have to, as it has been shown several times that they are very loose interpretations of what is happening in reality. If you get hit by one of undyne's spears during one of those chase sequences, do they suddenly split into a massive rain and hail down on u you for several seconds? No.

      If we do that, we're literally ignoring a good amount of the game's feats. We learn about the characters and their powers from the game itself. Same goes for turn based RPG's and such.

      Do you think the enemy is just waiting for you to use an item or attack in real time? No.

      Do you think the characters just stand there and get hit by the attacks all the time? No. 

      Ignoring the gameplay battle is ignoring everything about how the fights in that world work .We wouldn't know about Sans' powers, Papyrus' powers, Undyne's powers, or anyone's for that matter. We would literally go all the way back to square one and have all the profiles at Unknown because we can't scale anything from the gameplay battles. 

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    • It likely only lasts for a tiny fraction of a second outside of the bullet board.

      We simply cannot quantify UT characters, my idea is all we can get sadly

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    • Well, I guess all the lower and top tiers would have to be all Unknown, and thus unusable in vs battles then. 

      Edit: I mean, if we can't quantify them might as well remove the profiles then :/ 

      Undertale heavily relies on its gameplay system to explain how its world works so ignoring it would be a huge mistake in my opinion. Also, I'm pretty sure time moves normally in the bullet box unless said otherwise. 

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    • Yes we can quantify them. I have listed several building level feats. Even if we don't know what bombs they are, lowballing is building level. Vulkin's lightining would be around that,and Mettaton's bomb as well. Tier 8-B Undertale.

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    • Why has noone here played or even seen footage of the game?

      There are SEVERAL times where it is shown that bullet board time does not equal realtime, such as during the Undyne chase sequences.

      We cannot quantify bullet board feats. End of story.

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      Why has noone here played or even seen footage of the game?

      There are SEVERAL times where it is shown that bullet board time does not equal realtime, such as during the Undyne chase sequences.

      We cannot quantify bullet board feats. End of story.

      I've seen footage and playthroughs of the game. Also, what about times like the battles with Papyrus and Undyne? Is that mean their fights last in a millisecond or something because of the bullet board then? Also, the Undyne chase wasn't really any issue about time, just a different attack than what was shown. It wasn't even an actual fight. In fact, majority of game battles don't reflect real time, you can beat a boss in 5 minutes but the game would make it seem like hours. 

      Again, Undertale relies on its gameplay to explain how battles and abilities work in that world. Ignoring it would meaning 90% of feats would be invalid. 

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Yes we can quantify them. I have listed several building level feats. Even if we don't know what bombs they are, lowballing is building level. Vulkin's lightining would be around that,and Mettaton's bomb as well.

      Tier 8-B Undertale.

      That's good to know. But how do we know Mettaton's bomb would be that powerful if it never went off? 

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    • MarvelFanatic119 wrote:
      HIT IT wrote:
      Why has noone here played or even seen footage of the game?

      There are SEVERAL times where it is shown that bullet board time does not equal realtime, such as during the Undyne chase sequences.

      We cannot quantify bullet board feats. End of story.

      I've seen fottage and playthorughs of the game. Also, what about times like the battles with Papyrus and Undyne? Is that mean their fights last in a millisecond or something? Also, the Undyne chase wasn't really any issue about time, just a different attack than what was shown. It wasn't even an actual fight. 

      When you get hit by one of her spears in that chase sequence, you get a short Bullet Board scene where hundreds of spears rain down on u. Did that spear split into hundreds? No. And I have several more examples of the difference between bullet board reality and real reality. And those could have taken 1 min or like several hours, we can't quantify them because we don't have a non-bullet board timeframe.

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    • HIT. Don't assume that those who disagree with you haven't played the game. It's fallacious and unneeded. Undyne's spear isn't real time, but the fights are. Frisk has conversations with his opponents in them.

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    • HIT IT wrote:

      When you get hit by one of her spears in that chase sequence, you get a short Bullet Board scene where hundreds of spears rain down on u. Did that spear split into hundreds? No. And I have several more examples of the difference between bullet board reality and real reality. And those could have taken 1 min or like several hours, we can't quantify them because we don't have a non-bullet board timeframe.

      I know how that attack works, I've seen it lots of times. The ones that come from the ground can't do that, but the one she throws possibly can split apart. If they're more examples, what are they then? Also, hundreds is exaggerating a bit, there weren't that many coming at you. 

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    • Sorry. The thing is, the bullet board is not an exact representation of reality, attacks may appear magnified or different from reality, and the timeframes for attacks may also differ, so like an attack which takes like 2 secs in reality can appear a bit longer on the bullet board. We cannot use calcing techniques for bullet board attacks.

      But anyway: here are examples of bullet board not matching reality: When u spare sans, he hugs u and uses a bone attack on while he's doing so, which is represented by an undodgeable bone attack. He didn't ACTUALLY whip out a magical undodgeable attack, that's just a representation of it being undodgeable.

      At the end of the game with Flowey, did he use a magical undodgeable attack which it is physically impossible to miss? No, that's just a representation of the fact that he's trapped u.

      It seems like the BB represents the area in which u can move. Maybe it would be an idea to scale the explosions caused by TP's bombs to the area in which Frisk could logically move?

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      Sorry. The thing is, the bullet board is not an exact representation of reality, attacks may appear magnified or different from reality, and the timeframes for attacks may also differ, so like an attack which takes like 2 secs in reality can appear a bit longer on the bullet board. We cannot use calcing techniques for bullet board attacks.

      The thing is though, while not an exact representation, it still can possibly be real time. Like what Matthew said, Frisk has conversations with their opponents, and unless everything is happening so fast the conversatons all happen in a microsecond. The battles against Mettaton for example had many of the Underground watching the fight, it had to be real time in order for everyone to watch it, even the non combat able monsters. You also need to do various acts like petting and playing with the Dogs, the game gives you a message for each act explaining how you do them in each battle. 

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    • MarvelFanatic119 wrote:
      HIT IT wrote:
      Sorry. The thing is, the bullet board is not an exact representation of reality, attacks may appear magnified or different from reality, and the timeframes for attacks may also differ, so like an attack which takes like 2 secs in reality can appear a bit longer on the bullet board. We cannot use calcing techniques for bullet board attacks.
      The thing is though, while not an exact representation, it still can possibly be real time. Like what Matthew said, Frisk has conversations with their opponents, and unless everything is happening so fast the conversatons all happen in a microsecond. The battles against Mettaton for example had many of the Underground watching the fight, it had to be real time in order for everyone to watch it, even the non combat able monsters. 

      I'm not saying it happened in a microsecond, just that the timeframes are different.

      Does anyone think my Toby Fox idea might be good?

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    • MarvelFanatic further elaborated my point. They often have to be in real time. Furthermore, I'm lowballing all feats and we still get Tier 8-B Undertale.

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    • HIT IT wrote:

      I'm not saying it happened in a microsecond, just that the timeframes are different.

      Does anyone think my Toby Fox idea might be good?

      But don't people call Mettaton DURING the battle right after he says he'll take callers? Unless the whole Underground was sucked into that fight too (which sounds even more ridiculous), it needed to happen in real time in order for that to be possible. 

      Well, when in doubt, ask the Creator to help out. 

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    • I am not saying it takes place completely outside of real time, just that the timeframes FOR ATTACKS are different and NOT to an extremely large amount or something.

      So everyone's on board with that TF idea?

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    • MarvelFanatic119
      MarvelFanatic119 removed this reply because:
      Didn't need it.
      12:42, April 20, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • What about Undyne and those lasers?

      But that's a moot point, I think the Toby Fox thing would be a good idea.

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    • MarvelFanatic119 wrote:

      But don't people call Mettaton DURING the battle right after he says he'll take callers? 

      They do. Mettaton's fight, along with several other important ones, very clearly happen in real time and not a fraction of a second.

      Anyway, you can ask Toby about this stuff, though I don't know how quickly you'll get an answer.

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      What about Undyne and those lasers?

      You know, I actually completely forgot Frisk can just walk through and dodge the lasers, if they so choose. It's just annoying and takes way too long.

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      I am not saying it takes place completely outside of real time, just that the timeframes FOR ATTACKS are different and NOT to an extremely large amount or something.

      So everyone's on board with that TF idea?

      If it's not to a very large degree, then the timeframe won't affect the calc that much then unless it was shown otherwise. Non combat monsters can see everything in the Mettaton fights happening fine so there's no need to assume the timeframe is any different then. 

      Also, didn't you earlier stated:

      "It likely only lasts for a tiny fraction of a second outside of the bullet board."

      Forgive me but I assume you meant a HUGE time difference in the bullet board from this statement you said. 

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    • Hold on I'm confused.

      Disregard that statement I made. All I mean is that attacks may be different in reality than in the bullet board.

      I, being the Luddite I am, don't have a Twitter account unfortunately? Someone else here willing to do it?

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    • HIT IT wrote:
      Hold on I'm confused.

      Disregard that statement I made. All I mean is that attacks may be different in reality than in the bullet board.

      In certain fights, yes. In others, no. For example, in the Mettaton fight, the bullet board is clearly the exact same reality and not just a visual representation of things happening. In fact, Mettaton's heart fires electricity directly into the box, implying no real difference between the two spaces. This seems to be true for most boss fights, but not for a lot of regular enemy fights.

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    • Verivici
      Verivici removed this reply because:
      h
      14:51, April 20, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Can't. On phone.

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    • Verivici
      Verivici removed this reply because:
      s
      14:51, April 20, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs

      The bombs that were released during Tsunderplane's attacks may be these bombs as these bombs were used during conventional bombing and warfare. With regards to Matt's suggestions that Undertale's tiering may be lower than Island level, we can find out number of bombs that were dropped during Tsunderplane's attack, therefore determine Tsunderplane's tiering.

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs

      The bombs that were released during Tsunderplane's attacks may be these bombs as these bombs were used during conventional bombing and warfare. With regards to Matt's suggestions that Undertale's tiering may be lower than Island level, we can find out number of bombs that were dropped during Tsunderplane's attack, therefore determine Tsunderplane's tiering.

      Having them be Father of All Bombs is fairly reasonable in my opinion, and I agree with it.

      However, just because one can throw a 1,000 Punch combo, does not place said person in the Tier the combined Energy Output all those punches would generate. Similarly, just because Tsunderplane can drop many bombs, doesn't mean she should have a Higher Tiering.

      8-B Tsunderplane, Papyrus and whoever scales, 8-A for High Tiers is good.

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    • Yeah i'm fine with what Matt putted.

      Kind of wish we could use something that's more powerful than the FOAB's but this is probably what we have to go then, huh?

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    • Well, there goes Undyne's wins...

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    • @Matt: If that is the case, those bombs look a lot more like these guys , judging by the shape of them.

      Personally, I am okay with Small Town level Tsunderplane. Considering that Tsunderplane drops these bombs without abandon however, each of those bombs might even be a casual attack that he flings out without even trying.

      Therefore, town level Tsunderplane sounds okay to me as well.

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      snip

      Really wouldn't be surprising, considering an enemy almost immediately after makes miniature suns.

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    • we don't rate people higher just for the amount of attacks they put out. 

      I agree with Matts suggestion

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    • LordAizenSama wrote:
      we don't rate people higher just for the amount of attacks they put out. 

      I agree with Matts suggestion

      ...Isn't 15 kilotons Town level, though?

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    • Yes. @Azzy.

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    • @Azzy its 44 tons

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    • Wait, are we still talking about the FOAB or the Little Boy nuke bombs?

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      @Azzy its 44 tons

      Little Boy was 15 kt, which is what Crazystarf linked.

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    • @Azzy: Yes, it is town level.

      Also, with regards to Knight Knight's sun feat, I am starting to think that he just formed a miniature sun, and just spammed Hypersonic+ speed fireballs from it. If it was a ray of light, it would have travelled in a straight laser similar to Sans' gasterblasters.

      Personally, I would be okay with Hypersonic+ Undertale characters here considering we have Frisk dodging meteors without problems as well as planes zooming around the battlefield and stuff.

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    • Except Matt was talking about the FOABs @Azzy

      And even then I kinda have a probelm since

      A- Its never stated what kind of bomb

      B-When the Papyrus calc wasn't considering calc stacking we were fine using the representation on the fight. Now that it isn't, we are disregarding the representation (which would make it way smaller), which is pretty hypocritical just saying (unless I missed someting)

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    • ... So FOAB or Little Boys? They look more like the later, but I don't know.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yQNy7z9Gos

      They are almost identical to a Little Boy. Maybe we go with that?

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    • @Crazy

      KnightKnight almost certainly would have had to make said mini sun, since the sun doesn't fit under the surface of the Earth. No idea what Tier that would be.

      @SD

      I never said we should disregard representations? In fact, I spent numerous posts talking about why some fights likely utilize basic representations more than others and vice-versa.

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    • @Azzy, uh I see, then why are we guessing the bomb rather than calcing the explosions from the battle representation?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      They are almost identical to a Little Boy. Maybe we go with that?

      IDK. I mentioned that the bombs looked very "Little Boy" like, before, so maybe.

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    • SomebodyData wrote:
      @Azzy, uh I see, then why are we guessing the bomb rather than calcing the explosions from the battle representation?

      Because there are probably better things to calc, really.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      Because there are probably better things to calc, really.

      Yeah thats true

      However, guessing should only be used when there is no way to find out, but right now we have a distinct and viable way right in front of us and I believe that should be the route taken instead

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    • Which is why I'm saying there are objectively better things to calc that haven't really been brought up yet, like creating a miniature sun.

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    • Well then okay. 

      So uh, whos gonna calc the miniature sun?

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    • The closest thing we have to a miniature sun would be a fusion reactor.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

      Maybe we could calculate based on the energy required to cause nuclear fusion in the atmosphere.

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    • I'll calculate the miniature sun and post it on a blog soon. Would have to scale the size of the sun from Frisk however (his soul is 1/2 the height of Frisk if I remember).

      Edit: Calculation.

      Knight Knight creates a miniature sun:

      Knight Knight sun

      Area of a sphere = 4*(Pi)*(radius^2)

      Frisk's height = 1.2m, or 4ft

      Frisk's soul = 0.6m = 19.1px

      Diameter of the Sun = 33px, or (33/19.1)*0.6 = 1.0366m

      Surface Area = 4*(Pi)*(0.5183^2) = 3.376m^2

      Temperature of the sun = 5778 K.

      Plugging this into the radiation calculator (emissivity = 1 in a black surface), we get a value about...

      213351473 J/second. The attack lasts for about 5 seconds. 

      213351473*5 = 1066757365 J/s, or 0.255 Tons of TNT. Building Level, I think.

      Credit to Regicide.

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    • Inb4 Miniature Sun brings Undertale to Tier 6 again.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Inb4 Miniature Sun brings Undertale to Tier 6 again.

      I don't know whether I would laugh or cry.

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    • While the calc is good, I think it would be a good idea to do energy required to cause nuclear fusion...

      According to this [[1]] without gravitational pressure or magnetic fields to support the reaction the minimum temperature required to cause Nuclear fusion would be about 100 million Kelvin...

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    • And what makes you say that it is undergoing fusion? What properties were shown that suggest that?

      Also, the sun has a much higher temperature near its core but the surface area becomes massively different at that point. Fusion doesn't occur in the entirety of the star itself, just the very small core.

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    • Papyrus and Knight Knight calc.

      Apparently Frisk is seeing those meteors about 1630x slower than us.

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    • The Papyrus one is calc-stacking

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    • What did this turn into, as an Undertale fan, I don't like seeing downgrades to my favorite characters, but they are just and should be put into place accordingly.

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    • Use it or not; your choice. Calc pretty much solves the problem in regards to how fast attacks move in Undertale anyways.

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    • Why not calc the ke for one of the meteors?

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      Use it or not; your choice. Calc pretty much solves the problem in regards to how fast attacks move in Undertale anyways.

      The speed is fine yeah, but you should probably do the Vulkin one too. That'll give higher results.

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    • You can't apply meteor speed to attacks that aren't meteors.

      As for what speed we use for them, they are ablated so the speed we use is ablation speed aka 2km/s

      In regards to the sun calc, why use emissitivity when you can use MC delta T? The average density of the sun is easy to figure out and then you can just assume air instead. 

      For example,

      Density of sun = 1.989 x 10^30 kg/1.41 x 10^27 m^3 = 1410.638 kg/m^3

      Volume of mini sun = (4/3)(pi)(1.0366m/2)^3 = 0.5832 m^3; Mass conversion = 822.712 kg

      Using 2 million celsius for the temperature (it drops to this about 70% of the radius away from the core).

      E = (822.712kg)(1001J/kg)(~2,000,000K) = 1.647 x 10^12 joules = MCB

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    • Ah, for one, or for the total meteors that he sent out?

      Right, let's calculate this.

      Meteor

      13px = 0.6m 

      11.4px = (0.6*(11.4/13)) = 0.53m

      Mass = Volume*Density = (0.078m^3)*(2650kg/m^3) = 206.7kg

      KE = 0.5mv^2 = 0.5*(206.7kg)*((3000m/s)^2) = .222 Tons of TNT Building level.

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    • As for what speed we use for them, they are ablated so the speed we use is ablation speed aka 2km/s

      They aren't ablated, that's fire around a square-ish meteor. Your Sun calc looks good though. So basically it's consistent MCB and MHS?

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    • I mean, I would assume the "fire" is really ablation or what people see as ablation

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    • The sun calc looks okay to me, but considering this was Regicide's idea with calculating the sun and not mine.....

      Also, I will edit the meteor speed to 2-4 km/s. Averaging this to around 3km/s.

      Edit: Corrected the calculation. MCB Papyrus it is. Let's also go with your calculation with the sun as well. Can you do a revision on Primal Groudon's Sun calculation as well?

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    • Well it's not like you are wrong to do that but the thing is that the sun only acts as a black body because the core is in fact radiating heat out to the outer surface of the star, which results in the surface temperature being much lower (and thus the energy radiated from the body to be much lower) than what can be expected from the core temperature. In effect, the core "fuels" the radiation of heat from the sun's surface. This is why it can act as a black body (aka at a constant temperature).

      In this case, the "mini-sun" disperses within seconds, which sorta means it has no internal "fuel source." What this implies is that the "mini-sun" cannot be assumed to be at a constant temperature and in fact that being present in the environment causes its temperature to go down immediately and significantly, even on a second by second basis.

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    • The Papyrus thing is still calc stacking Crazy, you're using speed from a different feat to find a multiplier and then stacking it with a different feat to find speed and KE

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    • Then perhaps that rule should be changed considering that we need something to scale the speed of characters from. The only other choice is to use game mechanics to find how quickly the object moves from one end to the other end of the screen.

      Edit: We know how many times slower Frisk views incoming objects in the game comparison to us, so let's just leave it at that.

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      Then perhaps that rule should be changed considering that we need something to scale the speed of characters from. The only other choice is to use game mechanics to find how quickly the object moves from one end to the other end of the screen.

      Edit: We know how many times slower Frisk views incoming objects in the game comparison to us, so let's just leave it at that.

      Speed itself isn't the problem, though. The problem is finding a speed feat in which the KE can be properly found in order to get an actual AP value.

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    • Well we could still try calcing tsunderplane's jets flying at you at MHS speed, since they can appear at the same time as Vulkin's lightning iirc, or does the moon thing move at the same time as the meteors? We could possibly calc that, although it probably wouldn't get too good a result

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    • Maybe we just need to give up on try to put a value on Papyrus and just scale him from other characters?

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    • I did some calculations above, and perhaps the Papyrus calculation that I did can give a better perspective of Frisk's and Papyrus' speed?

      With this calculation, Papyrus' bones were moving around Mach 8.85, and with Frisk's speed being comparable to that.

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    • @Crazy

      Doesn't that compare speed from Knight Knight's battle to Papyrus' battle? If it were that easy, I don't think we'd be having this discussion in the first place, since we could just apply Nap's relativistic values and be done with it. However, we need a speed feat that generates KE on its own in a contained manner (and doesn't rely on other battles or characters). Doesn't need to match up to Nap's speed feat, as we're not looking for speed. Just trying to see if we can use speed to get AP on certain feats.

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    • But that's calc stacking, finding a multiplier to Frisk's perception and applying it somewhere else is calc stacking

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    • The number for Frisk's perception is basically constant throughout the game, meaning that the value is a constant (will not change throughout the entire game).

      Being that this value is constant throughout the game, you can literally scale the speed everything using this value and it will not result in absurd results. I will prove this again for all characters in a different calc if necessary.

      Edit: my main point is that we are assuming calc stacking because an assumed value was used without proof of where the value was obtained. However in my calc, we obtained a specific value from a different value that comes from reliable source (meteor speed). It is similar to a math problem where you have to calculate a bunch of unknown values from your given values.

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    • No, they are right Crazystarf. We don't apply speeds that aren't directly about the object. There is no scaling in regards to speed in calcs.

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    • The number for Frisk's perception is basically constant throughout the game, meaning that the value is a constant (will not change throughout the entire game).

      It is not, sometimes bullets are very fast compared to you, sometimes lightning is very fast to you. Sometimes sweat is comparative to your speed. Plus this is still calc-stacking.

      Edit: my main point is that we are assuming calc stacking because an assumed value was used without proof of where the value was obtained.

      No, calc-stacking is literally just whenever you use a previously calculated result to gain another one that isn't just "they were Mach 78 in this frame and running into someone at that speed is [this] many joules" within the same scene.

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    • Perhaps we can use the game mechanics to find the speed of various objects moving then? We can find the speed depending on the time it took for an object to reach Frisk. However, this brings us the issue of Sans' gasterblasters.

      Also, I would like the feat where naps moved at relativistic speeds, on video if necessary.

      If you guys are willing to keep this topic in an endless loop, go right ahead. Personally, I think we could have ended this discussion based on the speed of the meteorite and scaling the characters from it.

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    • Nah we couldn't. That wouldn't have resolved the core issue of the problem. Otherwise, the discussion wouldn't happen in the first place.

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    • There isn't a video, @starf. It's a quote from Napsta himself after the Pacifist route, saying he was "left out" of Flowey's absorption light because he closed the blinds when he saw it envelop the snails on his farm and knock on his door.

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    • So, just so that I understand right, the primary problem with the KE calc is that it assumes a speed within a given range rather than use a specific, calculated value?

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    • ThePerpetual wrote:
      So, just so that I understand right, the primary problem with the KE calc is that it assumes a speed within a given range rather than use a specific, calculated value?

      Yep. 

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    • ThePerpetual wrote:
      So, just so that I understand right, the primary problem with the KE calc is that it assumes a speed within a given range rather than use a specific, calculated value?

      Which calc? Nap's or Pap's? We can't use Papyrus' due to it being calc stacking and Napstablook's would be difficult to use because, while it essentially gives us a good idea of his speed and what it is at the very least, lacking a more specific value makes it harder to accurately calculate, meaning the feat works better as a gauge for speed than AP via KE.

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    • How about calcing Napstablook closing his blinds? That wouldn't be calc stacking I don't think.

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    • The feat with Napstablook closing his blinds states that he closed the blinds after it had enveloped the snails. I have no idea why a beam of light would knock on someone's door, but it seems that Flowey's absorption light works more like a flashlight that is aimed towards a specific area instead of something that radiates towards its surroundings.

      The statement is also extremely vague in description, and also without a video showing, can be taken entirely out of context in regrds to what happened.

      So I heavily disagree with the fact that napstablook (one of the weakest monsters in the game) reacted to Flowey's beam of light. Even if he did, it would be an outlier as it heavily contrasts the speed feats that other characters did and thus, should not be used as a valid feat.

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    • I am with Crazy on that. Napstablook's "Feat" is weird, vague and likely an Outlier.

      I think they should be lightning-fast at most.

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    • @Matt: I'm not even sure if the feat is lightning fast. Personally, I am leaning towards the thought that Flowey started to rotate his head towards napstablook, and napstablook noticed Flowey's head (the light was flashing from Flowey's face most likely) rotating towards him.

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      @Matt: I'm not even sure if the feat is lightning fast. Personally, I am leaning towards the thought that Flowey started to rotate his head towards napstablook, and napstablook noticed Flowey's head (the light was flashing from Flowey's face most likely) rotating towards him.

      I think that Flowey just illuminated the whole Underground in a flash of light, considering it all happened in a matter of seconds, rotating his head would take too long for it to spread throughout the Underground. It also never showed him doing that, it was just a flash of light and then Asriel appeared, that's it. 

      Though I agree with the Napstablook thing being an Outlier and being too vague. 

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    • snip

      The flash itself was slow as hell though if we look at what's depicted on screen.

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    • Tivanenk wrote:
      The flash itself was slow as hell though if we look at what's depicted on screen.

      It seemed fast to me considering it covered the whole Underground in moments. 

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    • It took a couple of seconds to cover up the entire screen.

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    • It would still take