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  • LordAizenSama
    LordAizenSama closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    16:38, April 11, 2016

    Hello. I have been meaning to make this for a while now, but have never had the time to do so. Now that I have found some time, I can get to work on revising the profiles for the Bastard!! series.

    All if not most of our Bastard!! pages are copied from the OBD, and in turn, have all of the stats that the OBD came up with. However, after reading and overanalyzing the f*** out of Bastard!! entirely, I have realized that there are some errors across the board in regard to several of the characters statistics.

    This is the first in a series of threads pertaining to the revisions of the Bastard!! and deals with the Attack Potency of the characters, and what exactly should be revised.

    Also, -SPOILER WARNING-

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    1. Anthrax

    Anthrax is listed as Continent level, but should be updated to Multi-Continent level based on the following:

    -Her power is described as strong enough to cause oceans to boil and rip the earth open. 

    -In the fight with the Dragon Knight, she was sinking whole continents and moving the entire axis of the planet.

    -It is important to note that Anthrax isn't even at full power in this stage. She has a true form which is much stronger since she casually killed Dark Schneider, who had just recently stomped her demonic form.

    [Note: This upgrade is very important for other changes further down]

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    2. Base Seraphs (Michael and Uriel)

    They are currently listed as Large Star and Star level respectively, which is partially true, but not entirely. The reason they are listed as such is because of the power of their divine weapons,  which does not necessarily include their innate power. Their standard base power should be listed as Planet level,and ranked as the higher respective tiers with their weapons.

    [Note: This also applies to Porno Diane, who is actually the Seraph Gabriel]

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    3. Lars Ul

    This one is rather simple, as he scales to being stronger than Anthrax's true form (If you can't tell what's happening here, it is Lars casually killing a Dominion class angel, which is what Anthrax's true form was, the same one who killed Dark Schneider), which would make him Multi-Continent level as well (assuming Anthrax recieves an upgrade). It should be noted that Lars is likely at least somewhat rusty since he was out of action for 15 years just like Dark Schneider was.


    4. Dark Schneider

    This is easily the biggest/most in-depth change.

    Starting off, Dark Schneider needs to have his dividers changed around. While being somewhat similar to his current tabs, they should be as follows: Prime Dark Schneider / Pre-Timeskip Dark Schneider / Hell Arc Dark Schneider / Post-Timeskip Dark Schneider (Base Dark Schneider) / Majin Dark Schneider / Dragon Knight Lucifer (L01) / Adam of Darkness. I know that this is alot, but these are all significant versions of the character that need to be added for accuracy sake. These are also all in chronological order to when the story takes place.

    Now onto the actual tiering.

    Prime Dark Schneider was more powerful than Lars, who needed to summon the Dragon Knight in order to finally defeat him. Lars, as we know, is superior to Anthrax, who should be Multi-Continent level, meaning Prime Dark Schneider should easily be at this level as well.

    Pre-Timeskip Dark Schneider is a mixed case. He has calcs placing him at Large Country level with several spells very early in the story, and later moving on to being able to defeat Anthrax near the end of the Timeskip. The best way to put this in his stats would be "Large Country level early in the story, Multi-Continent level near the end of the time-skip." The reason he starts off much weaker than his prime is because he has been sealed inside a child and laying dormant for 15 years before the start of the story. The whole first half of the manga details his progress as he re-reaches his former glory.

    Hell Arc Dark Schneider refers to the version of Dark Schneider depicted in volume 18 who was sent to hell after being killed by Anthrax. In hell, his power increased dramatically, to the point where he was able to casually defeat higher level demons who were 6,600 times more powerful than Anthrax. Now I'm certainly no calcer, but 6,600 times 1 exaton (1 exaton being the baseline for Multi-Continent level) is 6,600 exatons, which reaches into the low zettaton range, which in turn is Small Planet level. This actually makes sense, as he was higher than the upper level demons, and was able to hold his own against Porno Diane (Planet level character), but was still ultimately outclassed by her in the end.

    Post-Timeskip Dark Schneider (or Base Dark Schneider), is pretty simple. After the 4 year timeskip, he was shown to be on par with the base Seraphs, was able to match Base Uriel blow for blow, and showed comparable speed to them. He was also able to punch out Konron (A high ranking demon) several times, and was able to split him in half and effortlessly rip off one of  his arms, and was even saddened by his lack of power. Effortlessly beating Konron was something only the Base Seraphs seemed capable of, so by seeing Dark Schneider replicate this is further proof that he is equal to them at this point. Combine all of these factors, and Dark Schneider would be as strong as them, making him Planet level in base post-timeskip.

    Now Majin Dark Schneider is where it gets a bit crazy. He is rated as Star level scaling off of Uriel's inccorrect stats, when in reality, he should be Galaxy level. Now hear me out, Dark Schneider posseses something called the Judas Pain, which increases ones magical powers immensely, and was stated by Uriel (one of the highest ranked and oldest Angles) that it has enough power to destroy a Galaxy. This is further substantiated in the next version of Dark Schneider, which I will get to now.

    Now we have Dragon Knight Lucifer Dark Schneider, or the strongest known form of Dark Schneider. Now, this version of Dark Schneider is rated as 4-A due to an old calc from him and Uriel shattering the Black Abyss. However, several things need to be taken into account: What shattered the Black Abyss was a simple clash between Uriel and Dark Schneider, and wasn't the only thing they were capable of. There is even more proof of Galaxy level when Michael (the highest ranked Angel) was comparing Uriel's power to her own power, and saying that he has the power to destroy the entire Galaxy. Now considering Uriel and Dark Schneider were pretty much even at this moment and were trading blows, this would also make Dark Schneider standard Galaxy level. It would also make sense that the Seraphs know what the levels of their power are, and exactly how powerful the 2 combatants in front of them are due to their age and experience.

    [Note: These Galaxy level upgrades apply to Fallen Uriel and Dark Augoeides Uriel since he was as powerful as, and matched Dark Schnieder. I just didn't feel like making another sub-section for him.]

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    5. Konron

    These are pretty simple as well. He should be downgraded to Small Planet level in base. Considering he was one of the higher ranked devils, and while not quite being as powerful as a Seraph or Devil lord, he should still be at least as powerful or likely significantly stronger than the Higher Order Demons that Dark Schneider manhandled in Hell. He is also one of the demons stated to be 6,600 times stronger than Anthrax, meaning this upgrade is basically given away in the story. This would place him around the Low 5-B range as well, or around the level that Dark Schneider was when he was in hell. This is further solidified by the fact that Konron was portrayed as just as weak to the Seraphs as Dark Schneider was to Porno Diane, who are all Planet level of course. 

    Now, in Konron's Augoeides, he should be rated as solid Planet level, since the Base Seraphs were shown to be somewhat frightened by the power of his Augoeides. 

    (It didn't really matter though, since Dark Schneider still casually one-shotted him :P)

    --------------------

    I know that this is a lot of stuff to go through, and I tried to make the layout as nice as possible, so any input would be greatly appreciated. Tell me if you have any questions or concerns with any part of this list, and I will be happy to answer.

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    • Seems reasonable to me, though I don't know much about Bastard.

      Konron's page got deleted, though.

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    • @Promestein:

      I see. Thank you for the input.

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    • Seems reasonable to me. What sold me was the fact that you said you overanalyed the hell out of it and given that your a fan of it who has to know what's been written and shown in the manga up to it's current point, i can see this being reasonable enough.

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    • @CrossverseCrisis:

      Thanks a bunch man.

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    • Well, similarly to Promestein, I also think that this seems reasonable, but do not know much about Bastard.

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    • @Antvasima:

      Well, in regards to the upgrades, there isn't really much outside of these scans I have provided that are relatable. I have pretty much gathered all of the necessary scans that are needed to support my claims, but if you do need any of these explained, then feel free to ask.

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    • So let me try to figure this out as well.

      Anthrax, Lars, Prime Darsh: High 6-A

      Seraphs: 5-B, much higher/4-C(?) with weapons

      Hell Arc Darsh: Low 5-B (managed to hold his own against Porno Diano)

      Pre-Timeskip Darsh: High 6-B to High 6-A

      Post-timeskip Darsh: Solid 5-B (comparable to the Seraphs)

      Majin Darsh and Fallen Uriel plus DKL mech Darsh: Solid 3-C

      Konron: Low 5-B, 5-B in Augo form.

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      looks great 

      Thanks a lot mate.

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    • CrossverseCrisis wrote:
      So let me try to figure this out as well.

      Anthrax, Lars, Prime Darsh: High 6-A

      Seraphs: 5-B, much higher/4-C(?) with weapons

      Hell Arc Darsh: Low 5-B (managed to hold his own against Porno Diano)

      Pre-Timeskip Darsh: High 6-B to High 6-A

      Post-timeskip Darsh: Solid 5-B (comparable to the Seraphs)

      Majin Darsh and Fallen Uriel plus DKL mech Darsh: Solid 3-C

      Konron: Low 5-B, 5-B in Augo form.

      Bingo.

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    • Okay then. I suppose that some statistics changes would be in order. However, it might be best to wait a while for more input first.

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    • @Antvasima:

      That is perfectly fine.

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    • Looks lovely, I bet you're gonna have fun with the durability next for DS.

      Also, it's been years since i read the manga completely, but i always thought gara could possibly be higher attack potency (and possibly other stats) being able to cut down angels and such. Am i wrong on this?

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    • Salavtore wrote:
      Looks lovely, I bet you're gonna have fun with the durability next for DS.

      Also, it's been years since i read the manga completely, but i always thought gara could possibly be higher attack potency (and possibly other stats) being able to cut down angels and such. Am i wrong on this?

      No you are correct. Gara is much stronger than the Sorceror Shoguns, who were each taking on Regular Angels and Archangels. The only problem is that I have no idea what the stats of these lower ranked angels are, which makes it much harder to find a good spot to place Gara at.

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    • The stat changes overall seem fine, to me.

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    • This seems fine. However, I believe the Seraphs are ranked at star because of this statement (NSFW). Do you think that is too much of a stretch to include?

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    • The changes suggested in the OP seem fine to me

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    • @Alakabamm:

      Good question. I actually provide that scan under the "Base Seraphs" section of this thread, and explain that the star level power in question is referring to the power of Michael's divine sword rather than her normal power.

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    • Seems fine, but i have a question:

      I was wondering why Porno Diane is Star level but on the OBD is Solar System?

      Just wondering.

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    • @Sheoth

      Awesome, i'll see if i can figure it out then for gara once you get everything else done.

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    • These upgrades seem perfectly reasonable to me.

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    • I see. It seems very reasonable to me. I would personally prefer it that, if possible, once the upgrades are applied to the profiles, the links explaining the logia are added as well.

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    • @KamiYasha:

      Our Porno Diane is ranked as Star level by scaling off of Base Uriel, which is incorrect as he is star level due to his divine spear, which Porno does not possess.

      Now, the OBD ranked her as solar system level due to her being stated as being stronger than all 7 demon kings who are all star level from scaling off of base Uriel (again, for inccorrect reasons). However there are some inconsistencies in the story here. Porno is actually the Angel Gabriel, who is a lower level than Michael, who, in turn, is a supposedly lower level than Beelzebub (one of the demon kings). If this were correct then we would have the flawed idea that Porno (Gabriel) > Beelzebub > Michael > Porno (Gabriel) which, of course, makes no sense. The only real answer to this is that Beelzebub is actually a lot more powerful than once thought, and that Hagiwara was just building up Pornos hype at that point in the manga. Nonetheless, this will likely be answered through the story later in the manga.

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    • TheMightyRegulator wrote: I see. It seems very reasonable to me. I would personally prefer it that, if possible, once the upgrades are applied to the profiles, the links explaining the logia are added as well.

      Of course. I will certainly see that through.

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    • Salavtore wrote: @Sheoth

      Awesome, i'll see if i can figure it out then for gara once you get everything else done.

      Thanks for your offer.

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    • Seems reasonable,

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    • I can't find any faults in the reasoning, so I guess I agree with the OP's suggested changes.

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    • huge bastard downplay. smh this is quite sad

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    • CrossXshim wrote:
      huge bastard downplay. smh this is quite sad

      Due tell how please, because the majority of these changes are upgrades.

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    • Based on what little knowledge I have of Bastard!! so far, (I've only gotten into it recently, VERY entertaining), I find myself in agreement. Well explaining, and whilst I don't have enough knowledge as of yet to counter anything, Sheoth seems to have explaining his reasonings quite well, and seem to make a lot of sense.

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    • ShadMorgen wrote:
      Based on what little knowledge I have of Bastard!! so far, (I've only gotten into it recently, VERY entertaining), I find myself in agreement. Well explaining, and whilst I don't have enough knowledge as of yet to counter anything, Sheoth seems to have explaining his reasonings quite well, and seem to make a lot of sense.

      Thank you.

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      CrossXshim wrote:
      huge bastard downplay. smh this is quite sad
      Due tell how please, because the majority of these changes are upgrades.

      they were downplayed already from the beginning upgrading to more downplay doesn't make it better. placing darsh and fallen uriel at base galaxy when each judas pain is galaxy lvl and darsh had 6 of them should make him multi galaxy at least


      not to mention their are close to universe calcs for dkl. but u guys don't accept the satan universe stuff for some odd reason even though it was in base, a long time ago, and casual

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    • CrossXshim wrote:

      they were downplayed already from the beginning upgrading to more downplay doesn't make it better. placing darsh and fallen uriel at base galaxy when each judas pain is galaxy lvl and darsh had 6 of them should make him multi galaxy at least

      For a large number of galaxy level characters, 6 times galaxy level is still galaxy level. since the difference between the lowest and highest end is like ~644 times.

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    • CrossXshim wrote:

      they were downplayed already from the beginning upgrading to more downplay doesn't make it better. placing darsh and fallen uriel at base galaxy when each judas pain is galaxy lvl and darsh had 6 of them should make him multi galaxy at least


      not to mention their are close to universe calcs for dkl. but u guys don't accept the satan universe stuff for some odd reason even though it was in base, a long time ago, and casual

      Again, you are taking this way out of context. Only the full Judas Pain grants Galaxy busting power, not every individual piece. Notice how Uriel says "It," as in the full Judas Pain, not the fragments.

      And what calcs are you talking about? I hope you don't mean shattering the Black Abyss, because that was debunked here. If you mean a different calc, then please link it.

      And as for Satan, creating a miniature Universe is impressive, but is also practically unquantifiable. Notice he is ranked as Possibly Universal, since we have no way of knowing if he can create or destroy and actual universe. If he does, it will be shown/stated later in the story, but for now, it's only a possibility.

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    • Sheoth wrote:                                                                                                                                                      later in the manga.

      We would need new chapters for that.... yeah, that's not happening anytime soon.

      Anyway, i agree with the changes.

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    • Are we going to factor in the 130 x boosts that Uriel and Darsh got?

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    • Wade Kali Strine wrote:
      Are we going to factor in the 130 x boosts that Uriel and Darsh got?

      Only Uriel recieved that upgrade, Dark Schneider never really did. And even then, Uriel would still be only Galaxy level with that upgrade.

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    • Sheoth wrote:

      Only Uriel recieved that upgrade, Dark Schneider never really did. And even then, Uriel would still be only Galaxy level with that upgrade.

      Darsh boosted his power and charged up so that he could match Uriel. Also, he got more than 1 boost. The old man said that he was getting multiple of them, each one boosting him by 130 x. Even if we say it only happened 2 times, that's still a 16,900 boost. That should get him into Multi-Galaxy.

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    • so 

      have thee changes been made?

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    • I have scans, btw.

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    • Wade Kali Strine wrote:

      Darsh boosted his power and charged up so that he could match Uriel. Also, he got more than 1 boost. The old man said that he was getting multiple of them, each one boosting him by 130 x. Even if we say it only happened 2 times, that's still a 16,900 boost. That should get him into Multi-Galaxy.

      Again, no. Dark Schneider shifted into the DKL to match Uriel's Augoeides. After a bit of fighting, Uriel then boosted his power by 130x, and Dark Schneider whipped out the Bloodstone to level the playing field since Uriel had become more powerful than him in that moment.

      And I don't remember Dark Schneider continuiously recieving 130x boosts... Could you link some of these scans?

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    • @The Living Tribunal1:

      Not yet. I am waiting for Ant's permission.

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    • In Ch. 130, Uriel started getting 130 x boosts. There were mutliple, and dialogue implies that they were still going throughout the following scene of them charging up. It's impossible to know the exact number, but it was a minimum of 2, as we see at least 2 of them taking place. Quote, "His energy increased by 130 times ... And it's still rising! At 130 fold! "

      In Ch 131, Beelzebub explains a bit of why Uriel's power is boosting . Then, he starts saying that this is happening for both of them . So, Darsh didn't GET the 130 x boosts, but he was getting his own unnumbered boosts that were able to keep him neck and neck with Uriel, even after Uriel's boosts.

      Darsh didn't pull out Bloodstone because he was at a big disadvatage either. In fact, he was shown to be about equal to Uriel even without it. He used Hell Rider LIght Wings. Then charged in with Exodus .With Jaw Breaker Light Wings he was able to clash evenly. WIth Super Demonic Dimensional Seperation he was able to actually push Uriel back a bit , but only held the advatage shorty beforing going back to the basicaly even clash. When they fell back into their clash, Beelzebub comments that the battle could go either way. Three pages later, Bloodstone is activated .

      Going off of multiple statements from Beelzebub and the way their clash is shown, DKL was boosted up to just around Uriel's level even before Bloodstone. So, I think scaling him to the boosted Uriel is completley justified. So, 16,900 x Galaxy, which I think is Multi-Galaxy.

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    • Sheoth
      Sheoth removed this reply because:
      23:57, April 7, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Wade Kali Strine wrote:
      In Ch. 130, Uriel started getting 130 x boosts. There were mutliple, and dialogue implies that they were still going throughout the following scene of them charging up. It's impossible to know the exact number, but it was a minimum of 2, as we see at least 2 of them taking place. Quote, "His energy increased by 130 times ... And it's still rising! At 130 fold! "

      In Ch 131, Beelzebub explains a bit of why Uriel's power is boosting . Then, he starts saying that this is happening for both of them . So, Darsh didn't GET the 130 x boosts, but he was getting his own unnumbered boosts that were able to keep him neck and neck with Uriel, even after Uriel's boosts.

      Darsh didn't pull out Bloodstone because he was at a big disadvatage either. In fact, he was shown to be about equal to Uriel even without it. He used Hell Rider LIght Wings. Then charged in with Exodus .With Jaw Breaker Light Wings he was able to clash evenly. WIth Super Demonic Dimensional Seperation he was able to actually push Uriel back a bit , but only held the advatage shorty beforing going back to the basicaly even clash. When they fell back into their clash, Beelzebub comments that the battle could go either way. Three pages later, Bloodstone is activated .

      Going off of multiple statements from Beelzebub and the way their clash is shown, DKL was boosted up to just around Uriel's level even before Bloodstone. So, I think scaling him to the boosted Uriel is completley justified. So, 16,900 x Galaxy, which I think is Multi-Galaxy.

      This.

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    • @Wade Kali Strine:

      Well holy shit. That was a very nice catch of yours. I was under the impression that Darsh activated bloodstone to level himself to Uriel since Uriel was beating him... Guess I should have re-read that volume before thinking that.

      But, with this new evidence presented, I am now convinced that Dark Schneider is Multi-Galaxy level as DKL.

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      @Wade Kali Strine:

      Well holy shit. That was a very nice catch of yours. I was under the impression that Darsh activated bloodstone to level himself to Uriel since Uriel was beating him... Guess I should have re-read that volume before thinking that.

      But, with this new evidence presented, I am now convinced that Dark Schneider is Multi-Galaxy level as DKL.

      NICE! Thanks for going by the evidence!

      Also, based on that scaling, AoD should be around Universal, correct? Considering he fodderizes the previous form and is stated to be on the level of those "Closest to God" in the verse. That includes Satan, who literally created the first stage of the big bang in base, thousands of years ago, wihthout even going all out.

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    • @Quincy XD. I try my best.

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    • @Wade Kali Strine:

      In my honest opinion, Adam of Darkness should remain at unknown. True, he did finish off Uriel's Augoeides, but it was already disintegrating and wasn't at full strength. Although the "closest to God" quote is kind of vague, and may just refer to the ability rather than power. Though it could warrant a possibly Universal rating for Adam of Darkness.

      And on another note, Satan would be upgraded to Multi-Galaxy level as a result of this as well.

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    • Sheoth wrote:

      Though it could warrant a possibly Universal rating for Adam of Darkness.

      And on another note, Satan would be upgraded to Multi-Galaxy level as a result of this as well.

      Possilby Universal sounds pretty good to me.

      Sweet! He is definitely above both of them though. I think a (Likely higher) or something like that would be fitting.

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    • "At least 3-B, probably higher" may be best for Adam of Darkness.

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    • Promestein wrote:
      "At least 3-B, probably higher" may be best for Adam of Darkness.

      This could work as well, considering I did also notice one more thing:

      The Adam of Darkness power seemingly faded immediately after restoring Amriel. This could be an indicator that it is only "abilities like God" rather than "power like God" that he recieved.

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    • Though it is possible that the Dark Schneider willingly concealed the Adam of Darkness visage...

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    • AoD is also one of the main components of the Negative Genesis, and it was supposed to basically let Darsh fight Jesus in the future. Although, that will likely never happen because Hagiwara is a bastard. (Pun intended) So, he can rival Jesus. (Whatever that may mean)

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    • Yeah, it was likely the latter then.

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      Though it is possible that the Dark Schneider willingly concealed the Adam of Darkness visage...

      I think it is a transformation, just like Judas Pain or DKL. Basically, he reverted to base because he didn't need to fight anymore. It was over, so why stay in that form, you know?

      Also, I found the statement I was mentioning before. He has a feat that only "God or the one closest to him " could do. That means God, Satan, and possibly Jesus.

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    • Yeah, this is definitely more plausible.

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    • Alakabamm
      Alakabamm removed this reply because:
      inappropriate
      01:37, April 8, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Please don't say that kind of stuff on here.

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    • Alakabamm wrote:
      Please don't say that kind of stuff on here.

      XD. I put it in code so the kids wouldn't understand~ Don't be so cruel, bb.

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    • I asked Ant for permission since a large number of the staff agreed with the updates. I am just waiting for him to give the ok.

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    • Great! I have been waiting for Bastard!! upgrades on this site for a while. I might start crying from joy. :( You guys... We did it... We really did it...

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    • "Shrugs" I don't think anyone really disagreed with them and it would be kind of hypocritical to use DBZ boosts and not Bastard!! boosts

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    • Really Sheoth? Sometime i just go with how many people including the number of our staff has agreed to. 

      Then again, i guess it's better to have him or Kavpeny give us ok's......sometimes for me at least. :P

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    • Well in a normal case, I would probably go ahead with it by now. But these are some pretty big upgrades, so I want to be certain it's ok first.

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    • @Sheoth: Oh that makes sense. If it's really big (pause tho), just wait for the head bureaucrats to give you the ok. Yeah, i forgot how big (pause again) theses changes were.

      Btw, should we just bring Konron's page back but just clear it to unknown for the moment? Feel like that would be good so that the changes also affect him as well. I mean i could do that right now, actually...

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    • Well, do you know why his page was deleted in the first place?

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      Well, do you know why his page was deleted in the first place?

      Cuz Ant deleted due to the page being poorly made and i thnk something about unjustified stats?

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    • I see. Well, we could bring it back I suppose. But we can wait for Ant to confirm the upgrades first.

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      I see. Well, we could bring it back I suppose. But we can wait for Ant to confirm the upgrades first.

      Fair enough. 

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    • I think that it is okay to apply the upgrades.

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    • I restored Konron's page just now so whenever your ready Sheoth, you can edit his page to do the nesscery changes to it.

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    • @Antvasima:

      Thank you.

      @CrossverseCrisis:

      Thank you as well.

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    • No problem.

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    • Aye no problem Sheoth.

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    • I noticed this is part 1, so are you doing speed next?

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    • Oh that is a good one to know on that, yes. @Wade.

      Is speed and other things the next major thing to look at, Sheoth? O.o

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    • Speed or Durability. Either one really.

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    • Dude Sheoth, don't forget to change the stats and not just the Tiers man. Just pointing that out, man.

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    • Striking strength as well, if it is comparable to their Attack Potencies.

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    • Got it.

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    • Please alert me when speed is being discussed. :)

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    • Alright.

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    • Sheoth wrote:
      Alright.

      Hey, if I could prove that Darsh destroys things on a 4th D level would that upgrade DKL to at least Nigh-Universal?

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    • Ye, just highlight the post for speeds and the rest of the stats when they're made, this has my interests

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    • @Wade:

      Are you referring to when Dark Schneider mentioned hell as being in the 4th dimension?

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    • Not necessarily. In reality, space and time are linked together on a 4-dimensional level, so they are hard to keep separate.

      Additionally, after talking with DarkLK for clarifications, I modified the High 3-A definition to the following:

      "Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP."

      Hence, creating or destroying small spacetime constructs is usually gauged by their size, as othervise we would have High 3-A Kaguya and the like.

      However, if Hell is 4-Dimensional space, not 3-Dimensional space + time, that might be another issue, unless this scale of power is contradicted by the feats within the story.

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    • @Ant:

      It's very difficult to determine. All of the Astral planes (Hell, Heaven, etc.) are said to lie in the 4th dimension.There are also scans earlier on in the series mentioning the Angels coming from a "higher dimension" and needing a lot of energy or a vessel to materialize in the physical. There is also a demonstration of them having some control over time, with Lucifer being able to stop time completely and the Angels being able to move in the frozen time. I am unsure if this is simply some measure of time hax though.

      Also, the problem with them being 4-Dimensional is that it would mean that every astral being is that powerful as well. Even the much much weaker classes of Angels. Not to mention the fact that normal humans were able to go into hell while retaining their physical bodies, which is another point of confusion altogether.

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    • Hmm. It seems like this is one of those cases of the author not understanding, or caring about, the full implications of what higher-dimensional means.

      We will probably have to ignore it in favour of feats instead.

      Alternately see it as all of the 4-Dimensional characters using much weaker 3-dimensional manifestation bodies/avatars.

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    • That's what I figured. That is a reasonable solution.

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    • Hmm. Interesting that Hell and the other Astral worlds exist in the 4th dimension.

      Unfortunately, based on what's been said on that, no further upgrade for the characters here i suppose...

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    • I think Hagiwara understood what a dimension is just fine, seeing as he often portrayed them as aspects or reality instead of pocket universes like what is done in Marvel often. I instead think he just misunderstood how dimensions are labeled or decided to name them something different in the manga. In our world, 4th D = Time, but in their world, that isn't the case.

      Sheoth, I was actually referring to the fact that Eternal Atoms must be destroyed on a spacetime level. Time manipulation is shown on several occasions, so it isn't like manipulating the 4th D is unheard of in the verse. So, if Darsh is Multi-Galaxy AND can destroy things on a spacetime level, wouldn't that boost him to at least Nigh-Uni?

      I can find the scans for the Eternal Atoms if you want, I just don't want to go spend time looking if it won't make a difference. XD.

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    • Well, I'm aware of what eternal atoms are but I don't agree that he understands what a dimension is. Time is clearly the 4th dimension there, especially if there are time stops occuring. It would be too far to call destroying things on a spiritual level night universal.

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    • Alakabamm wrote:
      Well, I'm aware of what eternal atoms are but I don't agree that he understands what a dimension is. Time is clearly the 4th dimension there, especially if there are time stops occuring. It would be too far to call destroying things on a spiritual level night universal.

      Time doesn't need to be the 4th D there at all. They never refer to it as such, and there is nothing that means that time definitionally must be the 4th D in all verses. Dimensions in Bastard!! are aspects of reality, just like time. The Astral Plane being the 4th D simply means that it is the aspect of reality that was asigned that number, as confusing as that decision might be. Time is still a seperate but directly connected aspect of reality within the verse.

      The Bastard!!verse is a verse with more aspects of reality than our traditional Minkowski space . To cut short a very long comment, to destroy the Bastard!! universe would take much higher dimensional manipulation than to destroy our own. You can destroy 4 dimensions in the Bastard!!verse and still have a universe (no matter how damaged) left at the end of it. However, our traditional energy scale would consider destroying 4 D on a universal scale to be Universal. DKL can do that, so it should logically follow that, while incapable of destroying his own verse, he can destroy ours. Thus, he is Universal.

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    • By our system and by the fact that time exists in the Bastard verse - yes, it must be the 4th dimension. Not even arguable. Whatever astral plane you are referencing is not considered a dimension in the same respect that extra dimensional space wouldn't be.

      You are taking the usage of "astral plane" in Bastard and amplifying it to an absurd degree.

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    • I agree with Alakabamm.

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    • @Alakabamm You aren't understanding something. By OUR system of meassuring dimensions, it is the fourth. However, that is not the case in the Bastard!!verse. Also, I'm not stretching the usage of "astral plane" at all. I'm literally just going by what was said in the series. The astral plane is a dimension, as in an aspect of reality. Our system for dimensions doesn't allow for there to be something like that, but you seem to be forgetting that this is FICTION we are talking about. In fact, anything beyond 4 D, Minkowski space, is fictional because we have not been able to prove anything above that. If you are going to rule out that an aspect of reality could exist in the verse based on the fact that it isn't used by traditional scales, then you are missing the point of fiction.

      It is even stated that the higher beings like Seraphs have to lower themselves to just the physical plane to interact with people. They are literally changing the aspects of reality that they reside on. That alone proves that they are at least 4 D, although not in our traditional usage.

      However, all of this is an irrelevant bit of information that you have forced into the conversation. Whether or not time has been arbitrarily labled the 4th D in the verse does not pertain to anything we must talk about.

      Time is a dimension, correct? We have instances of people stopping time completley, slowing time, moving within a time stop, and destroying beings that exist on a spacetime level. Those are the releveant pieces of information. Now, if you destroy someone with High Multi-Galaxy level Durability on a spacetime level, would that or would that not qualify you for at least Nigh-Universal stats?

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    • Higher dimensional beings like Seraphs could squash regular people like bugs if they were 5D. They could crush universes. It does NOT align with our system, at ALL.

      Time is not "arbitarily" labeled the 4th dimension. It IS the 4th dimension, like x y and z are the first three, so long as the series shows that they exist.

      Destroying beings on a "space-time" level doesn't mean what you think it does. Regular people exist on a space time level, according to you. That's not what destroying time means at all. In fact, because you are talking about time, you are already skipping from 2-C to 2-A, which is not what this discussion should be geared around. I'd advise you to look at our dimensional system. 

      And yes, this is a huge stretch of "astral plane." Beings are referred to as existing on spiritual and astral planes in many, many series but do not show anything close to extra dimensionality and this case is certainly not unique.

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    • Not if the aspeact of reality they exist on doesn't exist in a normal universe. What affect would destroying an astral plane do to a normal universe of 4 dimesions? NOTHING. What does it do in the Bastard!!verse? NOTHING. Why? Because their universe has more aspects of reality than that. Again, STILL irrelevant. Stop focusing on things that don't affect this discussion.

      Really? You want to debate language? Dude, IT IS ARBITRARY. We could have called time the 98th D or the German-Suplex Dimension. It literally doesn't matter. Lol. The concept remains the same no matter what it is called. You need to stop focusing on language and start focusing on the concepts.

      No. We destroy on a 3 D level because we interact with an objects main 3 dimensions with no access to the 4th. Destroying something on the 4th D along with the original 3 classifies you for a higher yeild, thus is the difference between Universe and Universe + or however you people choose to classify it. Existing IN a 4th D, time, does not mean being part of the 4th D or having any level of manipulation over it. That is why we can't destroy things on a spacetime level, only a space level. The Bastard!!verse has shown manipulation and interaction with the 4th D on multiple occasions as evidenced above. Destructoin on a spacetime level requires interaction with the 4th D, which is something that literally must be done in order to destroy Eternal Atoms. Again, I am asking you the same question. If you destroy something with High Multi Galaxy level Durability on a spacetime level, does that or does that not qualify you as at least Nigh Universal?

      They are said to reside on a seperate plane. That plane is referred to as a dimension. We have seen them display dimensional maniuplation. The dimensions are used as aspects of reality. This is hardly a Bleach or YYH situation. Don't try and equate them.

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    • There is no astral plane in our universe so what you are saying is pure speculation.

      TIME and SPACE are not arbitrary, especially not on this wiki and especially not by this dimensional system. It's a STANDARD. You really want to argue that time and space should be discarded? Great, now reconstruct me an entire system of physics and then we can talk. 

      Manipulation over time does not make you 4-dimensional. Existing in time (lulwat) doesn't even mean anything. Are you trying to call Bastard characters timeless? That's pretty much a lie.

      Eternal Atoms exist in three planes and I am well aware of what those planes are. They all should still exist relative to time, otherwise the entire system makes no sense. After all, to kill someone with Eternal Atoms, you need to kill them in all three phases at THE SAME TIME. Literally in the definition of Eternal Atoms. It doesn't transcend a thing.

      No one in Bastard has destroyed anything on a spacetime level, there is only a theoretical feat assigned to Satan and that is creation not destruction.

      Displaying dimensional manipulation is not sufficient. Throwing around meme words like astral is not sufficient. There is nothing that indicates it is higher dimensional rather than extra dimensional. And honestly? Astral is thrown around in way more series than the two you talk about.

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    • @WKS I still agree with Alakabamm. I would appreciate if you drop this matter. Thank you.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @WKS I still agree with Alakabamm. I would appreciate if you drop this matter. Thank you.


      Hi! sorry for bother but since DS just got an massive upgrade so could you also remove his loss against TTGL and Pegasus Seiya?

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    • Kind of a bit off topic Jim, but alright.

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    • CrossverseCrisis wrote:
      Kind of a bit off topic Jim, but alright.

      Oh sorry, But Thanks.

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    • He would likely still lose against them, if I remember their statistics correctly. Still, those are old off-site threads, so I suppose so.

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    • Want me to undo my edit and put it back, Ant?

      Edit: Nvrmind.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      He would likely still lose against them, if I remember their statistics correctly. Still, those are old off-site threads, so I suppose so.


      Well no comment for saiya but for TTGL, if he fight against the pre Infinity Big Bang Storm, then he most likely will win, but against TTGL after Infinity Big Bang Storm, then he will lose, but since TTGL will be low 2-C at that point so that will be stomp match.

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    • Well, it seems best to remove them then.

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    • @Ala I am dropping this because of Ant's request, but you are still wrong. Lmao

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    • Keep your rudeness to yourself

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    • Promestein
      Promestein removed this reply because:
      trolling
      09:04, April 11, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Alakabamm wrote:
      Keep your rudeness to yourself

      I am simply pointing out that stopping at the request of Ant is NOT a concession. I didn't give to your position, I simply stopped because Ant requested it. If anything, I am being polite. If I wanted to, I could have lashed out at you or Ant for literally shutting down the discussion so you had the last reply. I didn't though. I swallowed the bitter pill like a big boy. However, I am not going to let you think you are right just because I am not going to continue. Lol.

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    • Chill out people.

      So, is everything here done and dusted? Can I close it now?

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    • I think so, yes.

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