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• Selina and Felica have both arrived at the top of a museum to steal a diamond. They see each other and get into an argument over who is more deserving. They decide to settle it with a battle, winner gets the diamond and gets to keep the loser as their new sidekick and slave (Yes THAT kind of slave, you know the one I mean)

Both have all of their equipment, and Felica naturally has her Probability Manipulation

• Probability manip?Â

How good.

• I actually don't know. I'm trying to get more people familiar with her to come here.

• Depends how good BC's pobability control is, without it I would say Catwoman via AP difference.

Then again, BC does have the speed advantage.

• I found a respect thread for Black Cat that provides examples of her probability manipulation. If I posted a link, would you guys be willing to check it out and decide for yourselves if it's enough to allow her the win despite being weaker?

• Ok

• Here. Go to the abilities section

• That is actually really useful

• You guys can tell me when you are ready to vote. Afterwards, I will have to see if there is anyone else interested.

• Following. I'll take a closer look when I have more time.

• WHY DO I KEEP GETTING RANDOM NOTIFICATIONS.

JESUS.

• 9A vs 8C?

Am I missing something?

• Probability manip

• I'm pretty sure that doesn't overcome the tier gap unless one is close to baseline and the other close to the high end of their tier.

• Black Cat is also faster and has more equipment.

• Her Probability Manipulation is good enough to make up for the AP gap, which isnâ€™t even massive when compared to other AP stomps. Iâ€™ll call it 60/40 in favor of Black Cat. Batmanâ€™s enemies donâ€™t use probability manipulation, she wonâ€™t be used to it, and her whip will strangle her or something.

• The gap is over a thousand times though

• chokes on water

1000x?

• All she needs to do is make Catwoman strangle herself, make her motorcycle explode, make her rip her own throat out, or, and this is really in character, make her fall off a building during a chase scene.

• Oh, she has more AP, huh? You know sabretooth? Wolverine's enemy who is comparable to him? She's beaten him before:

Still think it's a stomp? I can give more proof.

• 1000x means that Catwoman exists and Black Cat dies. I don't think you understand just how massive an AP gap 1000x is.Â

• I do, but how do you approach her when you're busy dying? They start at a distance, so it's not a stomp.

• It's a stomp. Black Cat has 0 ways of hurting someone 1000x stronger than her. Catwoman won't be dying from any physical attacks because they literally cannot harm her.Â

I guess you're arguing about a whip battle. But given that both are very skilled, it seems unlikely that such a thing would happen. Catwoman could quite simply just snap the whip in two. Or counter with her own whip. But I don't see her strangling Catwoman with a 1000x strength difference. The whip might as well atomize on contact with Catwoman, lol.Â

• This is a stomp until Black Cat gets a upgrade via scaling, which will probably reserve it anyway, someone close this.

• Wait, where is 1000x coming from?

• Black Cat being baseline small building level for now at least.

• Catwoman's OWN whip will strangle her, and if it doesn't, she'll slit her throat while trying to remove it from her own neck. AP gaps can be avoided, look at many other fights. You can't tell me that if she can beat Sabretooth (by herself, cops and Peter got there later) that she can't beat Catwoman as well.

• Who says she is baseline? I don't see any calculations for either fighter to determine how far they are into their tiers.

• Thatâ€™s what makes them baseline.Â

No calculations means theyâ€™re baseline but Catwomaj is higher than baseline via scalingÂ

• If there's no calc, baseline is assumed.Â

@Titan

A 1000x AP advantage begs to differ. And their skill is comparable regardless.Â

• Yeah what Litentric said, unless theyâ€™re really really impressive which they arenâ€™t.

• Well what even got her into 9-A to begin with? Her attack potency justification is slamming someone through a wall and staggering this "Mr. Hyde". Hyde as no profile on here, so I don't know how impressive that is.

• Scaling to the Punisher's durability

• Am I missing something? Sabretooth wasn't holding back, he's comparable to Wolverine. She beat him based off of her skills and her probability manipulation. It's not really an outlier, her probability manipulation is stronger than her fighting skill.

• Yeah, plus she is faster and has more equipment.

• Current tally:

Black Cat: 1 (TitanCrusher101)

Catwoman: 3 (Huesito88, Lientric Teon, Schneeone)

• Real tally:

Black Cat: me

Close this because it's a stomp: The other boys

• Yeah, what about the fact that she beat Sabretooth?

• Unless Sabretooth is also 1000x stronger than her, then that feat is irrelevant to this match. If Sabretooth is that much stronger, then her tier should be adjusted accordingly. At least after consulting the knowledgeable members on the verse.

• No Black Cat isnâ€™t consistently portrayed as a consistent mid tier street level marvel character. Let alone having a feat on her own to scale to justify such a position. She will however get upgraded eventually to a tier through scaling thatâ€™ll make it so itâ€™ll just reverse the current situation for this. So stomp regardless, someone close this thread.

• Litentric Teon wrote: Unless Sabretooth is also 1000x stronger than her, then that feat is irrelevant to this match. If Sabretooth is that much stronger, then her tier should be adjusted accordingly. At least after consulting the knowledgeable members on the verse.

Sabretooth is 8-A.

This match is probably unfair no matter which way it swings, tbh.

• Iâ€™m no Marvel expert though, but it would need to be shown that Black Cat is consistently at the level of people like Sabretooth in order to scale; defeating him once, unless it was some sort of majorly significant plot point to the comics, likely doesnâ€™t push her into 8-A on its own.

• Yeah basically what I said

• Unless I'm reading into this improperly, they're not arguing that Black Cat is 8-A. They're arguing that Black Cat used probability manipulation to beat a person who's not only stronger than herself, but also stronger than Catwoman by some leaps and bounds.

Which is the truth, IIRC. Although I don't know if it's consistent enough to use, since she's also failed against people weaker than that before.

• Yep. What Huesito said in a nutshell. Thank you, Dargoo.Â

• So, is this now a stomp in BC's favor due to her Prob manip allowing her to beat an 8-A?

• I dunno.

Partially because, like every mainstream comic book character, what she does in a fight is thoroughly inconsistent. In this case, it's to the point that you could make a case for either "anytime she doesn't use probability is just her jobbing" or "any time she uses probability properly is just her writer trying to make her better".

Actually, half of the time, it's not even something she actively uses. Times like the scans where bullets and rockets just miss her for no reason are an example of her probability manipulation happening on its own.

• MrKing sums up the situation pretty well. Most Marvel vs. DC matches take half the thread to just establish what's consistent for either character.

• So what do we do now?

• So, does anyone vote inconclusive?

• Inconclusive: It can go either way. Catwoman can one shot but Black Cat has speed and probability manip.

• Oh....

Catwoman ain't one shotting with that speed gap....

• I'm gonna vote for inconclusive since it seems it can go either way. Catwoman can one shot with any clean hit but Black Cat has the hax and speed advantages

• You all doubted me.

• Speed was unequalized =PÂ

• Okay, so

Black Cat: (TitanCrusher101)

Catwoman: Unknown due to peoples opinions changing

Inconclusive: (Iaptus the Impaler, MarvelFanatic119)

SchneeOne, are you retracting your vote for Catwoman in light of BCs speed? If so, are you another inconclusive? I want to know who is still voting for Catwoman.

• Black Cat Stomps due to the speed gap and probability I think

Catwomen won't hurt her in years.

• Huesito88 and Lientric Teon, are you still voting for Catwoman for AP and Durability?

• Schnee One wrote: Black Cat Stomps due to the speed gap and probability I think

Catwomen won't hurt her in years.

Tell em Schnee.

• Inconclusive FRA

• Incon fra

• Fine

Incon FRA

• Eh. I'd rather not vote on something so inconsistent. While it looks very potent, there's literally only one instance of it.

• That's not "One instance" though.

• It's not? It's consistent? If it is, then I agree with incon. I'm just generally not sure.

• Probability manipulation profs very often, and while it diesnt usually defeat characters it dies screw them iver

Even if it only has thatbthough, she can wait until it happens since the speed gap is so wide Catwonen will never hit her....

• Oh. I forgot about the speed gap. That's a good point. Thank you for the clarification.

Incon FRA

• 6 inconclusives (Iaptus the Impaler, MarvelFanatic119, Huesito88, HeadlessKramerGeoff777, Schnee One, Litentric Teon), one more before grace.

• Anyone here want to throw in one more incon just to end this?

• Incon FRA.

• McQueen FRA

• PaChi2 wrote: WHY DO I KEEP GETTING RANDOM NOTIFICATIONS.

JESUS.

For the past few days, I've been waking up to 130+ notifications

I've contributed to maybe 2 of them

• To everyone calling incon, in terms of feats, I think Black Catâ€™s got this. Letâ€™s compare their universes. All around, Spider-Manâ€™s specific universe is stronger than Batmanâ€™s. I know it might seem incon, but I believe itâ€™s 65/35 Black Cat. That speed difference is too much.

• Black Cat can't harm Catwoman, only way for Black Cat to harm Catwoman is via probability hax making her accidentally hurt herself.

• Yes, but thatâ€™s still feats. She beat Sabretooth with her hax. So, in terms of feats, hax or not, Black Cat is more impressive.

• Yes her speed and probability manipulation gives her a big advantage. However, I would like to point out that in the fight with Sabretooth, she physically hurt him by clawing his face, which is inconsistent with their tiers.

I would vote for BC myself if I could, but I can't and I do see the points made. It's 8 inconclusive, 1 for BC, and none for CW right now if I am correct. There are 12 hours left before grace ends. If two or more people decide to change their votes in the next 12 hours because of BC's better feats, the debate can go on. Until than, I will just wait.

• This is only due to how weakened he was.

• Huh. Still, if he was weakened, it's hard to tell how much of his defeat was because of her prob manip. Like I said, Marvel and DC characters are hard to gauge.

• Grace has ended, still inconclusive. This can be added.

• Oh well, I tried.

• Well, someone said BC might be getting a revision, so there might be a rematch in the future (assuming it doesn't become a stomp in her favor).

• Yeah weâ€™ll see, what tier sheâ€™ll end up at.

• Technically they should both be getting revised, but nobody's really working on the DC street tier revisions right now...