Sorry bout the derailment. I expressed my gripes regarding it. Now, don't take it as a personal issue with KI or wanting a downgrade for them. I've been having my reservations with 4-A tiers for a while in general >_>
To be fair I am all in for Pit being the rockstar of Nintendo, but really want to clear my doubts regarding that particular point.
EDIT: 4-A tier achieved via starry dimensions right away I mean.
From mynunderstanding Hades realm is called another dimension specifically. As for Dyntos, I believe it is noted he recreated them as I think some of the boss locations are kinda....welll gone. I may be wrong though
I don't doubt that Hades' dimension is actually an alternate one, rather whether if it qualifies as a multi-solar system sized one and all that stuff based on the heart's starry design and the supposed starry sky in the fight.
Now, if Dyntos explicitely made replicas of the battlegrounds it's actually a solid point. I played the game a very long time ago so some stuff is blurry, but some places were destroyed? I know this is being stubborn, but IIRC only Cragalanche's place was destroyed.
Finally, how do the others characters would scale to Dyntos? IIRC Palutena more or less said the old coot was on a league of his own and his description said something like "being one of the real forces of the pantheon". EDIT: I mean, would he be considered above the tier decided for KI or just higher in the same tier?
Also, yes, Hades's Belly is an entirely different dimension from himself, as stated by his idol. As for the stars, I believe he created that dimension, same as Dyntos. My reasoning for this is that Hades had also previously created grind rails in his own stomach, and even said something along the lines to Pit "who knows if this'll even lead you to the goal?". This leads me to believe that Hades created the stage where he fights the boss hearts in. Their mannerisms also fit the part, more so just running away and trying to distract and piss Pit off instead of actually fighting, which would fit for a body part of Hades. When they are defeated, the detontation destroys the dimension, which is why Hades is actually somewhat harmed afterwards.
As for Dyntos had created each and every realm for Pit to fight in, since there was a door leading inwards to it, and I believe both Dyntos marvels on his craftmenship, much to Pit's discontent. Dyntos is within a league of his own, so no one would really scale to him.
But like Kepekley said,
"I absolutely disagree with:
We should only assume the stars are real if there is "proof" Which is just assassinating Occam's Razor and inverting the burden of proof.
The standard assumption always was, and always should be, that the stars are real until people prove otherwise. Not that they aren't.
The feat being inconsistent is not a reason. Consistency is just an arbitrary delimitation we came up with to rate our profiles, not an in-universe measure. If the characters are 6-B and they suddenly perform a 4-A feat, the 4-A feat is an outlier, but it's still a legitimate feat that happened in the narrative. It doesn't suddenly turn into an Illusion Creation feat without any evidence just so we can write it away altogether."
I see what you mean. Say, do you have a pic or vid of the starry space in Hades' dimension? My 3DS is broken, so I can't check myself.
So there's no outright declaration of Hades creating the place, but there is evidence that points towards it. Granted I don't think the hearts are that separate from Hades, being part of his body and all (I actually assumed he was controlling them until a double check). Do you know what the japanese script says? Perhaps it's more clear regarding the issue.
To be fair, what I meant with outlier wasn't that the feat didn't happen, more whether if the feat itself was valid or not. And I did concede mention that in KI a jump to tier 4 could be a simple high end feat for the end game as there's nothing later to contradict it nor disprove it.
What I mentioned with illusions was just an example of sorts, and to be wary of said possibilities when analyzing a dimension if something like that has been involved before.
Well, I know this is being stubborn, but, I don't fully agree with Kep's reasoning, though I do understand the points he brings up. The assumption changing could needlessly complicate things and overhaul things way too much, true, and many times it could leave the feats without enough basis to be of use. Buuut, this is what my issue is, I do think said standard is too lenient to begin with, and verses and lores get a jump in power that goes against what it establishes before or porpusefully more explicit displays of power. That said, I don't plan to change the standards or anything >_>
If the rule does remain that a starry sky is proof enough for the rules of the site, then I'll go with it, but given the discussion arose I wanted to raise my gripes regarding the whole issue.
So Grandpa Blacksmith would not scale anyone else, figures. Still, though same as with Hades' don't we have a passing comment from Palutena or Pit veryfing Dyntos created the whole arena instead of just creating a gateway to send him fight his recreations of the creatures? Japanese version included, perhaps there is something there.
Sorry for the lack of response, really caught up in this slime manga.
I don't have any photos, but I do have a link to the fight where you can clearly see the stars in the sky of his dimension. As for him controlling them, that's a no. The hearts actually seem to have a mind of their own, and run away from Pit in the actual boss fight and only attack via a large beam of fire, and just running straight into him.
Take a very close look at the sky within that dimension, and you'll see it throughout the cutscenes, and throughout the entire fight.
I can understand why you think it's an illusion, since not all feats of this mannerism are exactly reliable. I personally agree with Kep in this case, not really because it benefits me, but because by feats it's a god tier preforming a high tier feat, then is backed up by having an even stronger god tier create the same feat casually just for laughs and giggles.
As for Dyntos creating the dimension, I will search for it. But I do somewhat remember that Dyntos created a whole new Phoenix and the land around it, and he marvels it, much to Pit's dismay. As to which, Dyntos said "I'm choosing to hear only your words and not your tone, sonny". I don't remember the Jap. version, but I will find it today if possible.
Ah, I know, I mentioned the assumption of Hades' control was a mistake I made the first time. And to be fair, that obnoxious boss fight is something Hades would do to mess around with Pit.
Thanks, now I could see the stars this time around on closer inspection. They're more subtle and fewer than what you'd expect, but they're there. The room of the boss fight is pretty weird in design, though, it seems to have a close fleshy ceiling that diffuminates into a void and then becomes a reddish sky with stars in some sections and stars that are somehow beneath dark red clouds in others. It's more clear in the following cutscene, I guess I focused too much on the fight itself.
I am more on board with the more grounded resolution the topic has taken, namely: do not disregard the stars due to lack of evidence (because most of the time it won't be provided), but consider other potential limitations to the size of the dimension if there can be seen or appreciated, like terrain, barriers, rooms, etc. It's a good middle ground, the feats themselves still are valid, but are analyzed more carefully before anything, to not just give away a 4-A rating.
Well, I still have some doubts and a few things, but at this point I guess I am just being stubborn. I won't bother anymore with the issue. That said, I do feel the Pocket Dimension feats in general got the discussion clearing the aspects I found more iffy about them and I can see where the feat comes from, so my initial ambivalence is for a good part gone.
Then again, I never had the intention of getting a revision or much less a downgrade for KI, I am all in for Pit being as mighty as possible =P.
Sora? 3-A? Kick.ASS! Still haven't played KHIII so I am not finding out why yet. I thought he remained as a High 4-C, I've been avoiding spoilers so I've missed the updates.
As he is now, Link falls short, but perhaps in the future also reaches the 4-A depending on a number of things. If it goes all right, he'll duel Pit (on a similar feat so they'll have a heck of a battle). Sadly though, Cloud is completely outmatched, he really doesn't have a way to deal with such a huge AP gap, I mean, he's a decent 4-B but he's far from even reaching the upper limit of the tier and all.
Eh, perhaps in 2044 along with Kid Icarus Revolt, FFVII Remake will get its final entry and we'll see if Sephiroth uses a Multi Galaxy Destroying Supernova or something =P