For those who say Darkrai's sleep manip is through projectiles only, they're wrong. Darkrai has used thought-based sleep hax to put opponents to sleep without it being in a tangible attack form before, such as Palkia. And casually at that.
Darkrai should be able to take this. Shadow's bread and butter Chaos Control doesn't work here. Phasing and teleportation > just teleportation. And Shadow's never been so good that he's incapable of getting hit once. Because that's what Shadow's votes are based on. His teleportation is so good that it makes Ultra Instinct look like nothing and he just gets in close and hits despite omnidirectional city wide danmaku.
Could Shadow give more of a reasoning? Everyone's FRA'ing tele-tap. I'm not saying I debunked it because I hate when people think their word is good enough that it invalidates someone else's, but I would appreciate someone to address the counter.
There's also the point that if need be, Darkrai doesn't need to use Dark Void's projectiles to win. Hypnosis (or whatever he used on Palkia) is an insta-win, and Darkrai still has access to Roar of Time and Spatial Rend. Shadow needs to connect to win as he has no thought based hax if it somehow comes to it. Of course, Darkrai's bread and butter is Dark Void so that's what he'll use. With Chaos Control being useless, this is essentially Goku vs a hax character, with Shadow being Goku.
I mean the counter it's that Darkrai's dammaku is so good that Shadow can't teleport which is wrong, Shadow can simply teleport right close to him, where he is in danger of his own moves and dodge, and teleportation Chaos Control is thought based as well, Shadow will simply teleport to his face then punch him, one-shotting
Teleporting inches away from Darkrai, who's still spamming danmaku from itself, isn't smart. It's impossible to dodge from that distance and Darkrai's already firing from every angle. Not to mention that again, Darkrai can teleport too if it somehow comes to it. It's much harder for Shadow to hit Darkrai than vice versa. Heck, Darkrai can just spawn a dark void randomly in the air to put Darkrai to sleep, rather than just danmaku'ing.
@DMB 1 You do know there’s more to Chaos Control than just time hax right? Plus noticed how I never used it as an argument. Shadow would win because of his AP advantage and telespamming would be effective here, he’s done it multiple times.
So Darkrai can phase? Shadow can do that too in Sonic Battle.
Darkrai's dammaku isn't that good nor impossible to dodge, Shadow's teleportation is plenty to do that, there's also the fact that Shadow can also teleport out of reach then shoot a Chaos Spear, or simply teleport to another dimension then come back, he has plenty of options while Darkrai has a not so good Dammaku, any of Shadow's moves can beat him,
Citywide omnidirectional danmaku is certainly hard to dodge. Idk where you're getting otherwise. It's not like Shadow is Sans and dodges everything coming at him. Darkrai has the same if not better range than Shadow.
That doesn’t disprove my point. He moves. And doesn’t use any other moves. Can’t say the same for Darkrai, because both Darkrai and many other Pokemon have shown the ability to attack while intangible.
I got from the now blocked clip from this thread, the dammaku didn't appear hard to dodge to someone that can spam teleportation, and Shadow does dodge alot of attacks Cal, Sans isn't even that good
Then show me a fight against an equal where he canonically goes without getting hit. Not random GUN soldiers, someone on his level.
Darkrai's is as strong as a gun soldier compared to Shadow in this fight
And the clip that Shadow showed shows Shadow attacking while phasing, that's the entire deal of that move, Shadow hides in distorded space then comes back hitting a opponent, he can do the same to Darkrai, imediately attacking him after coming back
I wasn’t the one who made the GUN soldier comparison.
Darkrai hasn’t shown any info analysis; extrasensory perception, or whatever that would allow him to tell how strong his opponent is. He’d probably think Shadow was just some other random Pokemon. Everyone knows who Palkia is and what he can do, so that would pretty much be prior knowledge.
Final time, show me Shadow fighting against an equal ithout being touched once, otherwise your claim that he can just lolavoid everything, let alone danmaku, is baseless. Once again, Shadow doesn’t have Ultra Instinct.
ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: @Kukui Seeing as how Dialga and Palkia fighting literally shatters space-time, I would imagine it would be easy to sense that. What would Shadow be doing before fighting Darkrai?
Well you'd imagine wrong since Darkrai was the only one in the entire movie who sensed it was Dialga and Palkia fighting from the very beginning of their encounter, despite never encountering them before. Not even an experienced scientist who studies space-time distortions knew it was the work of Dialga and Palkia until half-way into the movie.
This was even pointed out. He even went as far as to put Ash in a nightmare to warn him that Dialga and Palkia would be coming to Alamos Town to fight there.
That should honestly be added since he clearly did that against Dialga and Palkia and arguing he'd know about them just because they're legendaries when wild mon dont...exactly go to a library to do research, is flat out ridiculous.
@Cal That isn’t running from a confrontation, that’s just having the common sense to not let your opponent’s attacks hit you. Shadow isn’t going to stand there and let himself get hit.
Teleportation is instantaneous, and Jiren was still able to hit Goku in UI.
Except Shadow would approach. That’s his character. Heck, strategic retreat would probably be detrimental if anything as it gives the insanely opportunistic Darkrai the chance to launch a sneak attack.
@Shadow. Which he needs to charge. Which gets him roofied by Darkrai.
@User. And Darkrai’s range is more than city, but that doesn’t stop Darkrai from using citywide range. Just because Shadow’s Chaos powers can reach certain lengths doesn’t mean it’s usable like that. Otherwise Goku can snipe from the other side of the universe.
No, Shadow got a three vote lead right now with the latest vote, I it wasn't added as far as I know
That’s not how grace works. Grace for incon ended 2 days ago. Any votes after grace ends aren’t counted as the match is already concluded. Whether it’s added or not is irrelevant to if the match is concluded.
Yeah, they were, now they aren't,it's incon if the votes keep being tied, like someone votes for Shadow then Darkrai, which didn't happen, Shadow has a three vote lead
They aren’t tied anymore since someone voted after grace. You say it would be incon if the votes “kept being tied” but the votes were already tied for more than 2 days. If 2 days is n’t an optimal timeframe then what is?
That’s exactly why grace exists so that we don’t arbitrarily decide when matches are concluded, like what you are currently inferring.
An example of this would be Gilgamesh vs Madara where the votes were tied and the match was concluded after grace (24 hours) had ended.
This is how the wiki has always treated inconclusive results.
Shadow's BFR is a lot harder to land than Darkrai's dark void. To clarify, Darkrai has 3 ways of sleep manipping. The city-wide danmaku (which is effective as shadow doesn't range spam from a city away, let alone a universe away, in character), the thought based variant and the in-game version, where a large hole appears beneath the opponent without any travel time, putting them to sleep and BFRing them.
As for the GUN soldier comparison, not only is what Cal said true about Shadow being immensely faster than them, but Darkrai has the Time Tripper IQ skill which acts as a 2x boost to speed.
There's no Grace for votes tied, read the rules again:
"If both sides have equivalent posts with constructive arguments, the thread shall be deemed inconclusive."
Aka, the votes need to be tied, that's why there has to be equivalent posts, there's nothing about grace here, meanwhile:
"When the thread reaches a valid vote count, a grace period of 24 will be acknowledged, starting when the final vote that resulted in valid vote count was posted. After this time period the match can be added, with proper format, to the respective characters' pages, or, for Tier 2 characters or otherwise locked profiles, requested in the Versus Addition Request Thread."
Grace only exists when there's a valid vote count, Aka a three vote diference, that thread you posted is a bad example because there was still arguing for both characters, and nobody voted for another character to break the tie unlike here, so accept that's grace for Shadow
Though with this new vote it might be inconclusive noe
If voting is still open, I'm gonna vote Darkrai. Wasn't it detailed above it's naturally defensive & wary earlier? Also, wasn't it mentioned it was skilled enough to fight Dialga & Palkia, or at least keep up with them?
Add to this Danmaku, Non-Physical Interaction for any Pokemon being able to hit ghosts meaning phasing might not help Shadow, & Darkrai can probably hit & avoid him.
Also, as Cal requested above, proof that Shadow goes full fights with opponents on his level of speed without getting hit? I'd assume Gun Soldiers aren't really Shadow's Level, & he's been beaten by at least Sonic & Infinite, getting hit in their fights, no?
AFAIK, he also doesn't have reason to know Dark Void will put him to sleep if he touches it; If Shadow tries to tank it or go rush through it, he might get affected anyway.
Also, Darkrai has:
Resistance to TheCreationTrio's abilities (Can take some minor hits from, and interact with Palkia and Dialga, and survived Palkia's pissed off attack)
This would include Time Manipulation (Dialga) & Spatial Manipulation (Palkia), so how sure are we that Chaos Control would work on Darkrai?
Heck, how does Darkrai's Power Nullification work? Also, its BFR? (Although, Shadow has Dimensional Travel, so how does that work?)
Also, I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but Darkrai has Telepathy & Precognition. How do those work? Could it be reading Shadow's thoughts mid-combat as he strategizes & realize he's going to stop time/teleport/use chaos control, etc.?
Could its Precognition foresee Shadow one-shotting it if he hit Darkrai? That'd be a good reason for it to get very avoidant. Afterimages & potentially Spatial Manipulation (Assuming it's not just Spatial Rend.) as well as Portal Creation could help.
There's also the matter of Time Travel. Both can do it, but how does it work? Can one follow the other? Are they likely to know where the other's going?
Come to think of it, is Time Travel even useful? SBA says this is in Central Park, New York, so, AFAIK, their younger selves aren't gonna be in this timeline to time travel to & kill.
Even though me currently arguing is irrelevant since Gyro voted but I would like to point out that in the thread I linked someone did indeed vote to break the tie but was told that grace has ended.
Because someone requested the match, but you are right now since the new votes
@ShadowWarrior1999: But they are on similar levels of speed, given Speed is Equalized, no?
The point is that Darkrai can hit Shadow even if Shadow fazes but Darkrai is a more defensive fighter.
There's also the question of if Shadow's NPI works, as Kukui brought up; Most every Pokemon has NPI already for being able to hit Ghost-types with most moves except Normal & Fighting type attacks & yet Darkrai is still intanible against them. In theory, PiS, or it's a greater level of Intangibility. I don't know the context.
I don't know how Darkrai's Precognition worked. Hence why I asked "How do those work?" and "Could its Precognition foresee Shadow one-shotting it if he hit Darkrai?". Also if it's actively activated rather than passive, I think a reasonable being try precognition when meeting a strange, new & hostile being. But I don't know about Darkrai's precognition.
Also, I suppose, technically, there's the matter of Darkrai time traveling to an earlier point in the battle.... Or. Come to think of it, how does Darkrai's Illusion Creation work?
Could & would Darkrai create an illusion of itself dead/defeated (It has Afterimage Creation for one.) & Time Travel to when Shadow thinks he's won, & then ambush him to put him to sleep/petrify/etc.?
This is useless as I already pointed out. Pokemon in general have Non-Physical Interaction by hitting ghost types and Darkrai cant be touched by them when intangible. Shadow being able to hit ghosts is not enough.
If this gets added as incon so be it, just wanted to address this real quick.