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  • The Everlasting
    The Everlasting closed this thread because:
    Upgrades established.
    22:52, March 29, 2016

    So Ever and I were just discussing, and may have found some significant Bayonetta upgrades and, looking over the lore and quotes of Father Balder, Jubileus, and Aesir, we believe we've found a massive upgrade for the god-tiers of the verse.

    Jubileus' Lore:

    Humanity, bound to the physical world, was forced to depict and describe her in its own tongue. It is supposed that humanity selected the name Jubileus, taken from the word jubilee, meaning a celebration of rejoicing, in an attempt to turn Divine Will into worldly happiness via repeated recital of His name. As a result of the cataclysmic events of the ancient First Armageddon, of which she sat at the very apex, Jubileus was forced into dominion over the world of Paradiso, governor of the light amongst the Trinity of Realities, and put into an endless slumber.

    The First Armageddon was an ancient event that occurred from a time before history and led to the creation of the Bayonetta universe. As a result of an unequal balance of light and dark and a subsequent struggle between those forces, the First Armageddon caused reality to split itself into aspects of light, darkness, and chaos, Forming the Trinity of Realities and resulting in the destruction of the previous universe and the creation of the current one. Jubileus was at the center of this event when it occurred, but there's more.

    It was from this point that the forces of light and dark began their endless battle for hegemony. The resurrection of Jubileus would trigger a reunification of the Trinity of Realities, fulfilling the desires of not only the forces of light, but also a centuries-old prayer said by those seeking divine intervention."

    It is stated that when Jubileus is resurrected she would be able to reunite the Trinity into a single universe. This was Father Balder's motivation for resurrecting the deity, and he even states several times that he would use Jubileus' power to rewrite the universe.

    "Jubileus will be resurrected, we will become the Eyes of the World, and a new universe will take hold!"

    "Light, dark, and chaos between. Three realities once split shall be brought together to create a new universe in the image of the old."

    "The time has come for Jubileus to return! At last, the Trinity of Realities will know their real ruler, and time will begin anew!"

    "No one can control Jubileus now. Its power is too intense...Light, Dark, human. All the strife, all the struggle...The Trinities of Reality wrapped up in a vortex of creation!"

    However, when Jubileus was revived she only had one of the Eyes of the World, and was therefore only at half power. If Jubileus is Universe level at full power, being at half power would make her Multi-Galaxy level, which would scale to Queen Sheba (Her stated equal), Bayonetta with the Left Eye (Fought and defeated Jubileus), Balder with the Right Eye (Equal to Bayonetta with the Left Eye), Loptr with the Right Eye (Comparable to Jubileus), and both Father Rodin (Stated to be just slightly weaker than Jubileus) and Rodin the Infinite One (Stated to be stronger than Queen Sheba).

    Aesir's Lore:

    "The Legend of Aesir... A legend from the dawn of time.

    Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. Aesir spent the first eternity quietly looking upon the Earth from his holy mountain. Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world."

    Similar to Jubileus, Aesir was around at the time of the First Armageddon and was tasked with ruling the Human World, the chaos portion, one third of the universe. There is one part of his lore though that makes him different from Jubileus.

    However, Aesir pitied the humans for their naivety and lack of free will, so the power he wielded was split into two equal halves and entrusted each to humanity's instincts: the Right Eye of Light, and the Left Eye of Darkness."

    Aesir was the one who CREATED the Eyes of the World. The Eyes of the World that nearly gave Jubileus the power to rewrite the entire universe and merge the Trinity of Reality into a single realm under the rule of Paradiso. Not only that, but he also split his soul into two halves; Loki and Loptr. In the game Loptr managed to not only defeat Balder, who had the Right Eye at the time, but also absorbed it, and then defeated Bayonetta and absorbed the Left Eye, becoming Aesir once again. Jubileus with both Eyes would have had the power to rewrite the universe, so it's safe to assume that Aesir, the CREATOR of the Eyes, would have this level of power. He even goes so far as to state that his will would become that of the universe. With this it should be fair to say that Aesir, Omne (The demon used to destroy Aesir), and Bayonetta 2 Bayonetta and Balder (Both fought Aesir with the Eyes, Bayonetta briefly fought him on her own) can be changed to 3-A.

    Conclusion: Jubileus, Queen Sheba, Bayonetta with the Left Eye, Balder with the Right Eye, Loptr with the Right Eye, and both Father Rodin and Rodin the Infinite One be moved to 3-B, while Aesir, Omne, and Bayonetta 2 Bayonetta and Balder be changed to 3-A.

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    • Since I'm part of this research, I fully agree with these upgrades.

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    • I agree with these upgrades, although I think that the word "At Most" could be used in these cases.

      Also, I would appreciate that the pages at least maintained the old Attack Potency feats and explanations, even if only in the "feats" portion.

      Again, I agree with these upgrades, but the sheer level of them in contrast to the "on-screen feats" may raise some eyebrows. Proper explanations in the Attack Potency sections would be needed.

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    • I don't see any contradictions from where I'm standing, so I'm all for this.

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    • I agree with the upgrades, they don't seem bad at all.

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    • I agree with this now, I realised where I went wrong xD.

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    • Seems pretty airtight. I agree.

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    • Sure, why not? Seems legit...

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    • Universe+ Bayonetta seems mighty fine to me. Upgrade approved!

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    • Crazystarf wrote:
      Universe+ Bayonetta seems mighty fine to me. Upgrade approved!

      You mean Universe level? Cause That would make them Low 2-C if that is the case....

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    • So now thats 9(?) people approving the upgrade and whatever Cross is. I believe this is enough.

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    • Well i didn't want to imply nor vote yet but i do say that if this is legit case based on both lores, i don't think it wouldn't hurt to upgrade them to 3-B/3-A level.

      Though i'd put them to like what Matt suggested earlier...

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    • Alright, upgrade time!

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    • I am always suspicious about powerscaling if in-game feats don't remotely hold up with what is demonstrated, but oh well that is just how lore things are done, I guess.

      Let me throw in a question either way:

      How does it stand with them being glass canons? Do we have any durability feats to match the god tiers stated AP?

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    • Jubileus sat at the very apex of the First Armageddon.

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      Jubileus sat at the very apex of the First Armageddon.

      Was that a destructive event? Timelines can be split without destruction caused and any beings harmed.

      EDIT: And what about Aesir?

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    • Considering how the event was described as "cataclysmic", it probably was destructive.

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    • It wasnt time that was split though, it was reality itself, the entire fabric of the universe, that was split into three different realities. Unless that's what you meant by timeline in which case i'm a dumb.

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      Considering how the event was described as "cataclysmic", it probably was destructive.

      Hmm... Well, I guess for him it's ok then.

      Which leaves the question how it is with Aesir. You wrote he was around, but I suppose the distinction between in the apex and not means he didn't tank the universe split thingy?

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    • We're not sure, it's not really elaborated upon.

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    • Well, in that departement I would then not scale characters to him just for defeating him if we don't know about durability.

      Edit: You maybe also want to wait 12 hours or something before making the change. You know, just so that people around the world all get the chance to read the thread and contribute.

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    • I mean, would not being in the center of an event that split reality itself be any different from being in the center?

      Plus, would it be incorrect to assume Aesir simply has comparable durability to Jubileus? They are of similar levels of power, after all.

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    • Are we sure that each of the individual forces themselves are exactly one-third of the total power? It sort of seems to be set up so that all three must be brought together in order to rewrite the unvierse, otherwise one should simply have one of them and warp one-third of it three times, then boom, whole universe rewritten.

      On the other hand, though, each of the three forces were apparently split into entirely different realms as part of the struggle between the forces:

      "Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos."

      So there's that? I don't know, this is just confusing.

      Is it ever elaborated on what exactly went down during the First Armageddon? That might matter.

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    • The issue is, if Jubileus was not summoned with all three powers, she would be completely uncontrollable, evident by her behavior during her boss fight.

      The events of the First Armageddon are relatively vague, all we know is what is described in lore, the important parts being mentioned above.

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      I mean, would not being in the center of an event that split reality itself be any different from being in the center?

      Plus, would it be incorrect to assume Aesir simply has comparable durability to Jubileus? They are of similar levels of power, after all.


      Similar levels of Attack potency, but similar levels in overall stats?

      And such events usually don't have a center, so the fact that a center is mentioned would mean that there is a relevant distinction between center and not center, right?

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    • @DT

      Overall stats. We have, tons of times, had things like "should be comparable to/superior to", without actual feats of that level, simply because it makes sense for the characters to have comparability towards each other.

      They used the word "apex" (I just called it center because it's easier for me), and it could simply mean Jubileus was where the First Armageddon started, as opposed to being elsewhere when it happened.

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    • Well, if they are stated to be comparable then that is fine, if it is just because both are universal I find it questionable.

      Two things that came to mind as I read a bit through their pages on another wiki:

      For one thing quote on aesir being around at the first armageddon. It isn't in the quotes given and is also not mentioned on the wiki.

      The other thing is about the characters that are supposed to scale because they fought aesir. Per wiki Loki made Aesir loose his original powers during the battle, or something. So were the characters capable to do a relevant amount of damage before that happened?

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    • Aight.

      Are you sure? "The Legend of Aesir" lists the quotes given.

      Yeah, they went through a full-on fight before Loki destroyed the Eyes.

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    • The Everlasting wrote:

      Are you sure? "The Legend of Aesir" lists the quotes given.

      ctrl+f'd it doesnt mention Armageddon once.

      They went through a fight, but did they cause relevant damage on their own?

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    • "A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. "

      The "struggle" is the First Armageddon.

      Yeah, they caused quite a fair bit.

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    • I see Aesir only mentioned after the realms were split in that quote.


      Well, if they caused relevant damage that is fine.

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    • Yeah, checking it over, it's not directly mentioned if Aesir was present during the First Armageddon, it's just stated that he appeared afterwards, with no very exact point of origin. However, would his status as the creator of the Eyes of the World as well as general parity with Jubileus still warrant the scaling?

      There's also the fact that the Eyes appear to boost durability (As seen with Bayonetta tanking attacks from Jubileus), and Aesir has his power from both Eyes, and is their creator.

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    • Well, the question is really if you have something to establish general comparability.

      As far as I see they don't hold a similar position and are also otherwise mostly unrelated. He made powerful artifacts, but creation of powerful artifacts doesn't mean much in that matter (humans can build universal stuff, like in Xenoblade for example).

      If it really is just that both are universal than I don't think that it is enough.


      Scaling his durability from Bayonetta or other characters that have feats through the power of the eyes would work, if he has the eyes power.

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    • CrossverseCrisis
      CrossverseCrisis removed this reply because:
      Remove.
      07:44, March 18, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • @DT

      So overall the scaling can still work, but not for the first reason I stated? Also (Not familiar with Xenoblade so I'm only guessing on what you're referring to), but creating mystical artifacts is a little different from creating scientific objects.

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    • So i guess it's fine to upgrade, yeah?

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    • How do we know that having one of three eyes makes them capable of anything near universe level? What if the effect is multiplicative and not additive? Is there any lore to that assumption?

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    • Well, the two Eyes are considered equal in importance and power, as Balder and Bayonetta are almost completely evenly matched, with the latter dominating the former in their fight in the first game while Balder nearly killed the latter in their fights in Bayonetta 2.

      Balder also mentions "Light and Dark. Unless both eyes remain the Universe will lose its balance.", implying both eyes have equal power, and thus half the power to reshape the universe.

      I'm not sure if this helps much, but I thought I'd might add this.

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    • Hmm. This seems reasonable up to a point.

      The issue is that, as far as I have understood, none of the characters displayed anywhere near this level of power in practice, so perhaps we should rate them as their old tiers in practical combat, while also writing "3-A via hax/reality warping unusable for practical combat purposes"?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Hmm. This seems reasonable up to a point.

      The issue is that, as far as I have understood, none of the characters displayed anywhere near this level of power in practice, so perhaps we should rate them as their old tiers in practical combat, while also writing "3-A via hax/reality warping unusable for practical combat purposes"?

      I think this is reasonable. "At most 3-A through Hax / Reality Warping"

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    • @Ant

      Well, as I mentioned before, Jubileus sat at the very apex of a cataclysmic event that split reality in three, indicating a similar level of durability to AP.

      Bayonetta demonstrates the ability to physically harm Jubileus when amped by the Right Eye (Indicating that the Eyes amp both AP and durability), while Jubileus can damage Bayonetta in return, implying that she can use the power the upgrades give in combat.

      Add on Aesir being powered by both Eyes, and yeah.

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    • Hmm. Okay then.

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    • So you're okay with the upgrades?

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    • I am uncertain. Let's wait to see what the rest of the staff think.

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    • Ok, so in the end it really comes down to the armageddon feat I guess.

      Let me ask tough, the armageddon was stated to "put him into endless slumber" and that he would needs "resurrection". Wouldn't that imply he was pretty much defeated by whatever that event actually was?

      Given that souls can exist on their own and can be reborn if not destroyed (when for example not thrown into the sun, like in this case) it wouldn't be impossible that the reason for him being in endless slumber is that his body actually was destroyed, right?

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    • The words "resurrection" does not always refer to death, just being revived or having new energy brought into it.

      As such, along with the use of the word "slumber", I feel we can simply assume "resurrection", in this context, means revitalization and being brought back into the Human World from her slumber.

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    • Yes, but it would seem her original body was destroyed then, or at least the event defeated her and put her out of action in some way. So isn't the feat for durability a rather bad one if it actually put her in a permanent coma by some means or other.

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    • Being put in a coma is a little impressive for when you stand in the center of an event that split the universe into three, when you yourself weren't damaged at all.

      In fact, the text implies she survived the First Armageddon, governed Paradiso, then was put into an endless slumber.

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    • It states she was forced into dominion over Paradiso and put into slumber, both as result of the first armageddon. You would also wonder what else would be powerful enough to put such a being into eternal slumber.

      The interpretation of "weren't damaged at all" is actually not given. We basically only know that her soul survived, her body might have been completly destroyed. Given that such a thing as seperation of body and soul can easily happen in that verse it isn't an unrealistic assumption.


      But I feel by now we gone through a bunch of discussion points. Maybe Highlighting the thread to get input from other users/staff members would be a good idea now. The discussion is sufficient for them to build an opinion based on the pro/cons I believe.

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    • Perhaps she simply let herself go into slumber?

      It cannot "easily happen", it has only been shown to be done under deliberate removal of the body (Like some of the Alfheim Challenges) or through attacks from certain Demons (Which is how Jubileus' soul was removed from her body in the first place).

      At this rate, I feel we're getting a bit too speculatory, especially since knowledge on the events of the First Armageddon is relatively vague. Now I'm just wondering if Hideki Kamiya has a Twitter for us to ask this stuff. Gonna need to look up on that.

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      Perhaps she simply let herself go into slumber?

      It cannot "easily happen", it has only been shown to be done under deliberate removal of the body (Like some of the Alfheim Challenges) or through attacks from certain Demons (Which is how Jubileus' soul was removed from her body in the first place).

      At this rate, I feel we're getting a bit too speculatory, especially since knowledge on the events of the First Armageddon is relatively vague. Now I'm just wondering if Hideki Kamiya has a Twitter for us to ask this stuff. Gonna need to look up on that.

      Have fun asking Hideki Kamiya. He would probably say "Go ask your mom" or something like that xD. But still he may give you a good answer. 

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    • The Bayonetta creator is infamous for being extremely rude, yes. I think that I read that he called his fans worthless insects or something similar.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      The Bayonetta creator is infamous for being extremely rude, yes. I think that I read that he called his fans worthless insects or something similar.

      Hideki may be incredibly rude yes, but he has provided great insight on the development of the Devil May Cry games to answer questions on twitter. He does like his fans but he hates it when people credit him with making Bayonetta 2 or ask him questions he has answered hundreds of times.

      I think asking him a question about Jube's strength to Hideki may be a good idea. The worst that could happen is if he gives us a troll response.

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    • I don't think you should ask him right now, he is currently being harassed about ScrewAttack and is taking their interpretation pretty badly.

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    • Yeah best to ask him in like one weeks time. Maybe a month.

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    • I agree with the suggested scaling.

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    • Love Bayo 

      But Universe level seems a bit too much 

      After all, she did fight Jubileus at Half power, as she had minus the Left eye because of Jeanne

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    • So, should we allow the upgrades of the Bayonetta characters or not?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Hmm. This seems reasonable up to a point.

      The issue is that, as far as I have understood, none of the characters displayed anywhere near this level of power in practice, so perhaps we should rate them as their old tiers in practical combat, while also writing "3-A via hax/reality warping unusable for practical combat purposes"?

      This seems like a reasonable middle ground.

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    • i agree to the upgrades.

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    • one question however...how does this rate Loki and Jeanne?

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    • Neither of them get the scaling due to lack of direct involvement with the entities that do.

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    • it doesnt, they dont scale to these upgrades except when jeanne summons sheba.

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    • well that answers my question...So is it agreed mthat the upgrades should happen?

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    • The Everlasting wrote:
      Neither of them get the scaling due to lack of direct involvement with the entities that do.

      I understand the reasoning, but this just further enhances the bizareness of the upgrade.

      I mean, Bayonetta and Jeanne are still presented as being at least somewhat comparable in power, with the later being weaker, but not that much so.

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    • well considering that in Bayo 2 the whole mission was to get Jeanne back. This allowed Bayo to get far ahead of Jeanne in power....i think...

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    • I'm pretty sure the comparability ceases to exist by the time Bayonetta fights Jubileus, context of tiers or not, considering just how ridiculously powerful Jubileus was in comparison to everyone else in the verse.

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    • Honestly, I don't agree with this upgrade, because one, dimension fusing feats are iffy in general (See MK vs DC for example) and it's a huge outlier compared to like every other feat presented in the series.

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    • I dunno if you can call it an outlier if it's engrained in the lore itself...

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    • How about the middle ground that I suggested earlier, and Azathoth thought was a good idea?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      How about the middle ground that I suggested earlier, and Azathoth thought was a good idea?


      Thing is they'd still be Multi-Galaxy/Universe in durability, and Bayonetta, Rodin, and Balder don't have reality warping.

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    • Hmm. Cases such as this are difficult to evaluate, due to that they only demonstrate large planet level attack power in practice. "At least 5-A demonstrated in practical combat. Possibly 3-A via the lore" then?

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    • But also keep in mind that there was a chance that Balder and Bayo may have been  focusing their power into one point...sort of how DBS handles things.

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    • That may be true, I suppose. Fiction recurrently does not make any sense regarding this point.

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    • So... what do we do regarding this?

      Also, @Ant, it's important to note that it's not only the lore, but the entire plan of the villains of the first game. Why would they phrase it in such a way if they didn't plan on doing it in the first place?

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    • Well, I suppose that an upgrade might be in order then. However, given that this is somewhat controversial, given the massive change, I think that we should wait for more staff members to okay it.

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    • You can ask for input in their talk pages if you wish.

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    • I can get people. If you don't mind...

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    • i have no clue about this verse, so honestly, my input would be null and void 

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    • The Living Tribunal1 wrote:
      i have no clue about this verse, so honestly, my input would be null and void 

      I'd recommend the games 

      They are amazing, Ocarina of Time tier id say

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    • Great & Lovable Peridot wrote:

      I'd recommend the games 

      They are amazing, Ocarina of Time tier id say

      i dont have time for games as of now 

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    • While I don't follow Bayonetta and have no knowledge about it, reading the OP/Thread the ratings suggested and the scaling seems to make sense to me.

      Take that with a grain of salt, though

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    • Well, I suppose that we may have to accept the upgrades, despite the contradictions involved then.

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    • Should we highlight this thread for more opinions Ant?

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    • That might help, yes. Although most staff members don't seem to take notice and reply anyway. I usually have to leave messages on all of their talk pages to get responses.

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    • I don't have much knowledge on Bayonetta, not sure if my comment would be inappropiate as I don't know the context

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    • well after talking to ever I came to agree with this upgrade though my knowledge for Bayonetta is very lacking :/

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    • It's best if you check with the arguments/points put fourth by DontTalk above also, if you haven't already so you can see both points of views

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    • Can you place polite messages asking for input here on the walls of the administrators and forum moderators who have not already contributed?

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    • sure

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    • Thanks.

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    • "At least 5-A demonstrated in practical combat. Possibly 3-A via the lore" then?

      I think it's a good idea.

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    • (My knowledge of Bayonetta is subpar at best but...) I agree with separating lore from canon. As Don'tTalk pointed out the events of the cataclysmic struggle are far too vague to to be used as evidence for "solid" upgrade, particularly the durability. If the subject was in need of "resurrection" and there was no explanation of their current physical state it does indeed seem like a poor durability feat, one that they likely can't scale to. Was it stated the eyes were created from his own power? Has he displayed reality warping so that we can trust this statement as undeniable proof? "His will would become that of the Universe". Again, vague. Does this mean he can control the physical matter of the Universe? Or that he will establish dominion over the subjects/inhabitants. It doesn't seem to be alluding to Universe Creation.

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    • Good point.

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    • Thank you.

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    • The Aesir which Bayonetta and Balder fought was missing Loki itself, the other part of his soul, even with most of his power, he was not at the level of the original Aesir which was more poweful than Jubileus and created both eyes of the world. 

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    • one question. Does this upgrade count as 3-A, High 3-A or low 2-C since Bayo and Balder can affect Time?

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    • Being able to affect time isn't enough. You'd have to be shown to actually destroy it.

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    • okay just wanted to get that clarified. Thanks. 

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    • No problem.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Hmm. Cases such as this are difficult to evaluate, due to that they only demonstrate large planet level attack power in practice. "At least 5-A demonstrated in practical combat. Possibly 3-A via the lore" then?

      I am fine with this to be honest. It is a good middle ground approach.

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    • at least 5-A demonstrated in practical possibly 3-A via lore seems fine though i think jubelius is at least 5-A with only 1 eyes of the world

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    • Sooo...should the upgrade be added?

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    • Well, for the moment it seems like we should probably stick to: "At least 5-A demonstrated in practical combat. Possibly 3-A via the lore"

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    • So we have 3 options from what it looks like: 

      Don't upgrade them to 3-A based on the lore and keep them the way they are, keep the 5-A tier but add the 3-A as a possible tier only by lore, or straight up upgrade them to 3-A based on the lore.

      Hmm....

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    • well the majority of people agree with an upgrade for what it's worth... Like I said while they never showed destruction or merging the universes, they could be like Dragon Ball characters in the fact that they focus their power to one point. Like Ever said it was the main goals of the villains of the story.  

      Edit: Not only that but they have a legit reason for not doing so right away.

      Bayo: Wasn't anywhere near her goal.

      Balder: Needed the right eye.

      Jubileus: Bayonetta kept attacking her.

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    • So what should i change them to?

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    • OK, so a suggestion:

      Jubileus and Aesir get Universe level AP, possibly with the note that reality warping like that was practically not used in combat (maybe just write that part under weaknesses or something)

      Jubileus durability gets ",possibly Universe level (sat at the apex of the First Armageddon, which split the Universe into 3 parts. The same event however possibly put her into eternal sleep she couldn't awake from on her own, so it is questionable if he could actually tank it)"


      The rest get scaled to those in the way discussed above (with possibly when scaled from jubileus durability and the reasoning behind the scaling noted).

      Would that be agreeable?

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    • Maybe we can make a key 

      With one eye = current Jubileus

      With both eyes = 3-A 

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    • I think that DontTalk seems to make sense.

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    • hm. I agree with DontTalks Proposal aswell

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    • i agree with DontTalks Proposal.

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    • DT's is very good to go by, so i agree. *Nods*

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    • I also agree with Don'tTalk.

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    • Everybody agrees with DT.

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    • I also agree.

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    • Ok, so i'll add the upgrades since everyone pretty much agrees.

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Ok, so i'll add the upgrades since everyone pretty much agrees.

      Based on DT's suggestion?

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    • Yeah

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    • Just wanted to be sure, that's all...

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