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  • Sir Ovens
    Sir Ovens closed this thread because:
    Thread concluded and results added.
    05:29, July 17, 2019

    Midgame Steve, so no diamonds/nether stuff, and KFP1 Tigress, so no chi stuff.

    Battle takes place in the Jade Palace.

    Who wins and why?

    The Player: 1

    Tigress: 8

    Inconclusive:

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    • What tier for both? 

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    • 8-C

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    • What stuff does 8-C player have?

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    • Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Adept Swordsman, Survival Expert, Fire ManipulationRegeneration (Mid. Can regenerate from several arrows through their skull), TeleportationHealingEnhanced Senses, Summoning (Can summon a Snow Golem), Immortality (Type 9. Death is but an inconvenience to them and they can reappear as long as their true selves exist), Non-Physical Interaction (Can directly damage intangible beings like Vex).

      He can fight at range with a Bow/Trident, and can hit far above his AP with TNT, though it takes a few seconds to explode.

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    • I'm going to go on a limb here and say Tigress can't actually win this fight.

      Mid regen means that she can't cause enough physical trauma to incap and immortality means she can't kill him anyway.

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    • If Steve dies as an 8-C, he respawns as a 9-A who's about 3x baseline. That's his immortality

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    • Again, she can't incap as long as he has Mid regen.

      Killing him over and over isn't going to do jack unless he stays down.

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    • Tigress has ways of incapping him, yes.

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    • Is the Chao Wa something 8-C Tigress does?

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    • Not regularly, but she can

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    • @Gyro shouldn’t he have the rest of the abilities on the profile? Even in Mid Game you’re able to get all of the things listed.

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    • Still looks stompish. Tigress has one way to take out the player, but the player has many other ways to take her out.

      Normally I'd say it's a decisive player victory, but there's a debate about chances of a character winning and making it stomps.

      I'll wait on this one.

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    • Nico-v11 wrote:
      @Gyro shouldn’t he have the rest of the abilities on the profile? Even in Mid Game you’re able to get all of the things listed.

      Most of the abilities are via potions/enchantments or misc. items. I'd consider mid-game to be pre-diamonds, since diamond gear is 7-C

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    • Sir Ovens wrote:
      Still looks stompish. Tigress has one way to take out the player, but the player has many other ways to take her out.

      Again, so long as Tigress kills the player once, they respawn as a 9-A. At that point, the player can't really take Tigress out at all.

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    • Then it's inconclusive. Tigress outskill grossly, and it doesn't help that whatever the player has at 8-C isn't really suited to take care of her from afar.

      Not that it matters, because she's way more agile than the player is and can most likely out-maneuver him.

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    • I mean you’re still capable of getting all of those things without diamonds so he should definitely have access to them. Besides on the profile there’s no distinction between keys.

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    • Technically yes, but you're not intended to be able to go to the nether or enchant without diamonds, and having full enchanted gear + potions + an elytra isn't considered mid-game or even early-game.

      There should be dividers on his profile imo

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    • It would take a CRT then but really he has access to all of the stuff on the profile since yeah he’s capable of having all of it (I mean have you seen the 5 minute speed run of Minecraft?? Holy crap!).

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    • Hmm, ok then. (I don't watch speedrunning, but that sounds crazy)

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    • Incon FRA

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    • Steve still has all of his potions since you can get them from Witch Huts (yes, including Death Manipulation)

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    • Doesn’t Steve’s Mid regen take in-game days without potions and doesn’t happen at all if they are sufficiently hungry?

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    • Don't think that it takes entire days, but punching Steve to death is totally possible.

      It's not like you can simply wait in front of a skeleton throwing arrows at you until sunrise or stuff like that. A bunch of arrows would still kill you

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    • @Kal Fair, but yeah, the Player can die by getting beaten fairly often.

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    • Definitely. Even the thing giving him the regen (arrows through the skull) would kill them after a few shots unless they manage to heal themselves through other means

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    • It just hit me that if the player gets killed by Tigress, they can't actually kill Tigress, and the latter can simply use Chao Wa to incap.

      I switch my vote to Tigress.

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    • Kaltias wrote: Definitely. Even the thing giving him the regen (arrows through the skull) would kill them after a few shots unless they manage to heal themselves through other means

      Healing potions, golden apple, and snotch apples will heal him faster than he’ll take damage.

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    • Mid game Steve shouldn’t have access to Notch Apples or even golden apples, TBH.

      Healing potions shouldn’t be something they have an abundance of if we don’t include the nether in the mid game seeing as they would be one of 16-something different potions they can get from Witch chests.

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    • The profile still doesn’t make a distinction and you can literally just spawn somewhere where you can find those ideas. Low chances? Yes. Possible? Most definitely.

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    • I made a thread about Steve's profile having dividers here.

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    • I guess in light of it all I'l change my vote to Tigress as well, Steve's got a fair amount of gear that could do some serious damage. But Tigress with her skill isn't going to just stand there and let herself be hit. Once she closes the distance she can take him down to his first key then go from there I guess.

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    • I don’t see how her skill is gonna be anywhere near good enough to contend with a fighter that has tons of options for durability negation and resurrection via totems that keep him at the same tier with all gear, golden apples and notch apples that will heal him just as fast as he takes damage, and his versatility within water and in the air (Central Park location means lakes).

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    • Totems of Undying and Notch Apples is really stretching the definition of mid-game, CRT or no CRT.

      I specified the location of the fight, so that part of SBA doesn't apply

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    • Again you can still find those at the beginning of the game.

      Well air superiority is still a thing.

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    • Just because you can doesn’t mean it’s an absolute certainty. I don’t like the idea of leaving it up to chance because you’re assuming that they can, so the player wins, but if they can’t, the player looses. 

      I’d say if it’s not something that is certain to be found mid game it shouldn’t be regarded. Then you have the problem of early game player and having this same argument. 

      I’m voting Tigress because I don’t like the idea of leaving this up to “they could find them”  

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    • Also for reasons above of course

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    • There’s no real chance. Even in early game ship wrecks are extremely common and you can find a map to the Mansion to get totems.

      In anyway it’s still standard equipment unless it’s changed into keys. I don’t see how any votes are valid if they ignore what The Player blatantly has at his disposal.

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    • Then keys need to be added to some off certain equipment from others, because that’s just a whole new kind of problem there.

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    • There’s already a crt for that above. You can comment there if you want I already did.

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    • Just going to say using items will be hard when someone who is vastly more skilled in martial arts is laying a beat down, not to mention Tigress is capable of disarming Steve pretty easily.

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    • All he has to do is eat a notch apple right before the fight starts. Or use a splash potion of poison or decay on himself and Tigress then use milk to heal himself (or if he had the golden apple/notch apple he’d be fine anyway).

      Not counting that he also has invisbility to use where he has access to many surprise attacks. He also has “thorns” on his armor where Tigress will take the same damage he wil if she hurt him but he regens instead.

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    • The Player would realistically have a shield and basic armor in the very early game. Any health regeneration from potions or golden apples - whether found or crafted - would put severe pressure on Tigress, as would any enchanted armor and/or weaponry: all of which is available to the Player at mid-game. His metabolism also allows minor regeneration from simply eating.

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    • For reference, here's a video link to a couple of players with midgame level equipment who tried to fight the Wither - an endgame boss.

      1.9

      1.9.2 Survival 5 - Wither

      They definitely bit off more than they could chew, but just look at how much punishment it took to actually defeat them. Tigress is strong, but she's nowhere near THAT strong. Fight starts at 1:24.

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    • Midgame Steve doesn't scale to the Wither at all, him taking hits from the Wither is an outlier. Your other points are fair though

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    • GyroNutz wrote: Midgame Steve doesn't scale to the Wither at all, him taking hits from the Wither is an outlier. Your other points are fair though

      How is it an outlier? The Wither is from Minecraft. The players are wearing Iron Armor with mild enchantments and taking hits from the Wither: that's a thing they can always reliably do with mid-game equipment. The player can't survive if they stay to fight the thing, but they can clearly take a few hits - hits which are blasting through meters of solid rock.

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    • Because iron armoured players can have trouble taking out Endermen, which are rated 8-C. Endermen are fodder compared to late-game bosses, which are rated 7-C.

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    • GyroNutz wrote: Because iron armoured players can have trouble taking out Endermen, which are rated 8-C. Endermen are fodder compared to late-game bosses, which are rated 7-C.

      Yet, Iron Armored players can be clearly seen taking shots from the Wither and surviving. Remember: this isn't a plotted TV show, where plot armor and writer inconsistency comes into play: Minecraft is a video game with defined rules and limits that don't change without mods. Those players weren't modding or using cheats either: they were wearing Iron Armor with low-level enchantments, and they are taking shots from the Wither. Thus, they scale to the Wither.

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    • Again, no. There's a much simpler explanation for this: it's just Game Mechanics. The same reason why Mario getting two-shot by Goombas/Koopas etc doesn't make him 9-B.

      If you want to argue that iron armoured players scale to the Wither Boss, then make a CRT for it.

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    • Btw, plot armour and writer inconsistency do come into play in video games, although not for Minecraft admittedly.

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    • GyroNutz wrote: Again, no. There's a much simpler explanation for this: it's just Game Mechanics. The same reason why Mario getting two-shot by Goombas/Koopas etc doesn't make him 9-B.

      If you want to argue that iron armoured players scale to the Wither Boss, then make a CRT for it.

      Btw, plot armour and writer inconsistency do come into play in video games, although not for Minecraft admittedly.

      I hardly need to argue that point: they factually DO - nothing in Minecraft is comparable to the disparity of Mario getting two-shot by Goombas and Koopas, so I don't know where that idea even came from. And in all seriousness, If all we do here is compare the already listed tiers while ignoring the source material, I don't see why vs threads like this one exist in the first place.

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    • You... really do need to argue that point. Mid-game Steve taking hits from the Wither is textbook game mechanics. Hell, “factually”, Base Steve also takes hits from the Wither, so should his durability be listed as 7-C too?

      Again, make a CRT if you think that iron armoured players scale to the Wither instead of claiming that all we do is ignore the source material.

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    • GyroNutz wrote: You... really do need to argue that point. Mid-game Steve taking hits from the Wither is textbook game mechanics. Hell, “factually”, Base Steve also takes hits from the Wither, so should his durability be listed as 7-C too?

      Again, make a CRT if you think that iron armoured players scale to the Wither instead of claiming that all we do is ignore the source material.

      First off, I DID make a CRT. Second, Base Steve would be one-shot by the Wither. Third, why is the Wither rated so much higher than the Player when it's built into the game that the player can kill it? That makes absolutely no sense on any level.

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    • Firstly, I don't see the CRT under the discussions for Minecraft or for the Wither. Maybe you did and just didn't update the tags?

      Secondly, in-game Base Steve is not one-shot by the Wither. Even in hard difficulty, its most powerful attack does 15hp damage. But again, we don't scale base Steve to the Wither.

      Thirdly, the Player can reliably fight and kill the Wither only when they have late-game gear (e.g. enchanted diamond). That's why late-game Steve scales to the Wither.

      Since/if you made the CRT, mind keeping discussions about Steve scaling to the Wither there and not in my vsthread?

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    • GyroNutz wrote: Firstly, I don't see the CRT under the discussions for Minecraft or for the Wither. Maybe you did and just didn't update the tags?

      It's under The Player, cince this is actually about The Player.

      GyroNutz wrote: Secondly, in-game Base Steve is not one-shot by the Wither. Even in hard difficulty, its most powerful attack does 15hp damage. But again, we don't scale base Steve to the Wither.

      Thirdly, the Player can reliably fight and kill the Wither only when they have late-game gear (e.g. enchanted diamond). That's why late-game Steve scales to the Wither.

      Since/if you made the CRT, mind keeping discussions about Steve scaling to the Wither there and not in my vsthread?

      I acknowledged that the Player can only reliably fight and kill the Wither when they have late-game gear. The issue is the fact that such an unequipped player still survives single attacks. With that being fact, this wiki is scaling the Wither higher by an entire tier. That's not a small increase: it's utterly massive, so much so that the Wither should be able to casually one-shot the player on a near-miss. It can't. And there's no plot-armor in Minecraft, so it can't be explained away that way. It's not simple game mechanic either: when exactly do we see the Wither launch a single attack that can level an entire town, only for the player to tank it anyway, like they do in Dragonball? Never.

      The tier scaling reeks of shenanigans: either the Player is far too weak, or the Wither is far too strong. Either case, the calcs are way off.

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    • Look, with all respect and without seeming like I'm just dodging your arguments, could you please drop this and take it to the CRT? I'll try to respond tomorrow, but this isn't really the place to discuss it.

      Btw, I'd recommend adding a few more tags to your CRT if you haven't already. It makes it easier to find.

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    • Antvasima was able to find my CRT just fine.

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    • Ok, but there's more tags on the CRT than when I tried to find it.

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    • It has literally been 5 days.

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    • What's your point exactly?

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    • GyroNutz wrote: What's your point exactly?

      Are you kidding? "I'll try to respond tomorrow (...)" 5 days later and you need to be called?

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    • My guy, I said I'd try to respond. I don't work for the wiki, I have no obligation to respond to your thread. Cut the attitude.

      But yes, I have responded now.

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    • The CRT devolved into a mess about the Ender Dragon’s AP, so bumping this

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    • FFA 2019

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    • Huh?

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    • im voted Tigress Fra.

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    • Reviving this to vote Tigress

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    • I’ll need some reasons first

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    • Sorry. Was meaning to say fra

      Steve's lacking his greatest hax tools, so, while he does have access to his potions, Tigress does counter a few of them (Such as invisibility potion).

      Steve would struggle to kill her and while she wouldn't necessarily lead with the Chao Wa Punch, the fact that she grossly outskills Steve means that if Steve did nearly bring her down (which would likely take more than one strike), she'd recognize that she needs to use it.

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    • It's alright, vote counted

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    • I'll vote Tigress FRA too. One vote left till grace

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    • Tiger FRA

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    • Voting Tigress, i don't think Steve would be able to put her down without the other abilities.

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    • Since this has been concluded and added, I'm closing it.

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