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  • Okay, so from this thread. It seems like there's a lot of contention on how the hax in Dragon Ball works. On whether all hax is weak against stronger opponents, which ones ignore the strength of the opponent completely and etc. I made this thread so it be discussed because this type of argument seems to happen a lot and really derails the thread so having it be settled here would be best. I put it in general discussion for now but it could be moved to CRT after a conclusion has been made.

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    • That's more about being phyiscally stronger not giving hax resistance. This is about whether or not the hax in Dragon Ball has a weakness to physical strength and if this applies to every hax ability in the verse.

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    • I'll repeat something I said in the thread Dragon linked to: 

      Instead of trying to assign some kind of general rule to how hax works in DB, we look at the showing of a particular technique and its ins and outs. 

      If a technique is dependent on power (EX: Hit's Time Stop), we make note of that. Stronger opponents being able to resist it is a weakness on Hit's part, not simply a feat of resistance on his opponent's.

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    • "If a technique is dependent on power (EX: Hit's Time Stop), we make note of that. Stronger opponents being able to resist it is a weakness on Hit's part, not simply a feat of resistance on his opponent's."

      Problem with this is that Goku explicitly said he was able to bypass Hit's Time Skip ability himself rather than any inherent weakness in Hit's technique which is why Goku has resistance to Time Stop in the first place. Jiren was later able to bypass Hit's time abilities because he quote "Transcended time itself", which while it could be hyperbole/an outlier, means that it's an ability of Jiren and not a weakness of Hit.

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    • I will agree with Ryu eternally on this topic.

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    • No, being stronger doesn't mean having hax resistance. I ranted about the stuff oon that thread on Discord with both Ultima and Matt and they both agree with me.

      There is literally only one example in the "Z" portion of the series, not counting Manga Hit due to it being a separate canon to the Anime continuity and that being a flaw of his technique:

      • Chiaotsu's Telekinesis doesn't work on Nappa because he is stronger

      That's literally the only direct example in the entire series against more than eight or nine I have posted that directly debunk it. Vegito doesn't count due to the Daizenshuu saying that's a special ability only he has, which we accept.

      Sorry but the "stronger = resistance to hax" is completely false.

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    • Telekinesis isn't really hax anyways. You're still exerting some amount of force, which is derived from your AP or LS.

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    • Didn't Vegeta somehow melted his absolute zero encased arm?

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    • Welp, Telekinesis is considered hax but at certain levels, low levels are limited by target's strength. But yes, there's few hax in DB that do works regardless of PL, like Guldo's timestop and TK, Ginyu's Body Swap, Devilman's whatever his power is called, and likely other ones.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote: Didn't Vegeta somehow melted his absolute zero encased arm?

      He shattered it when he punched something hard - plus, fictional portrayal issues with that supposedly Absolute-Zero ice.

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    • 1. Dabura's spit could work on stronger foes.

      2. Guldo's time-stop could work on stronger foes

      3. Ginyu's Body Change specifically targets stronger foes.

      4. Akkuman's Devilmite Beam targets stronger foes.

      5. Majin Boo's Candy Beam works on stronger foes.

      6. Mafuba works on stronger foes.

      7. General Blue's paralysis works on stronger foes

      8. Babidi's Majin Spell is literally meant to trap those who dwarf him in power and make them his servants. It's stated that Vegeta is only able to resist it because of his sheer drive to fight Goku (thus giving him a resistance to it)

      9. Guldo's Telekinesis worked on the much stronger Gohan and Krillin

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote: Didn't Vegeta somehow melted his absolute zero encased arm?

      He shattered it when he punched something hard - plus, fictional portrayal issues with that supposedly Absolute-Zero ice.

      I mean... how does one protray Absolute-Zero properly?

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    • I minor note about Candy Beam: it works with stronger foes, but if one is way stronger than Buu can move and attack in that state, and in time reform back to normal.

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    • In a book or something so you don't need to deal with visuals

      AZ hasn't even been known to be achieved yet (though we've gotten close). It's a complete cessation of the movement of any matter whatsoever. Matter behaves weirdly when approaching temperatures like this, but it definitely wouldn't just be ice, but colder.

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    • Akreious wrote:

      Goku got around Hit's original Time-Skip by predicting Hit's movements, which is something that we acknowledge on Hit's profile as a weakness. In response, Hit improved the Time-Skip, doubling the duration and throwing Goku off. Hit improved the Time-Skip throughout the fight. Goku eventually countered the Time-Skip by going SSBKKx10. He powered up to the point that when Hit tried to Time-Skip, Goku countered again and said: 

      "It's useless. The level I'm at is now far ahead of your Time-Leap." 

      Given the fact that Goku said that while using the most powerful form he had up to that point, I think it's logical to think that Goku's level of power defintely played a role in getting around Hit's technique. 

      As for Jiren, he was heavily supressed when he beat Hit's Cage of Time. Given what Goku did with SSBKKx10, we can safely say that Jiren just released more power to counter Hit. I mean, Jiren was dominating the fight before the Cage of Time. The statement from Vados is more than likely just there to hype Jiren. 

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    • Antoniofer wrote: I minor note about Candy Beam: it works with stronger foes, but if one is way stronger than Buu can move and attack in that state, and in time reform back to normal.

      No they can't. Vegito is an exception due to the Potara Earrings' magical properties as noted by the Daizenshuu. He has a resistance to the ability.

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    • @Akreious

      Like Rukia

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    • Is predicting movements even a weakness though? THat just seems like a skill feat for Goku.

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    • Really? Didn't known about that. So, resistance to magic in general or just attacks from Buu and creatures alike?

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    • Antoniofer wrote: Really? Didn't known about that. So, resistance to magic in general or just attacks from Buu and creatures alike?

      The exact statement is:

      • "He has certain special abilities, including that his strength doesn't change even if his shape does"
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    • Wokistan wrote:
      Is predicting movements even a weakness though? THat just seems like a skill feat for Goku.

      TBF, Hit's Time-Skip used last only .1 seconds. If you could predict where he was going to be you could basically neutrilize the Time-Skip. Given, how much he's improved and the fact that he can kill in oneshot, that may need to be changed.

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    • @Kep, Transmutation, transformation and/or mutation then?

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    • Transmutation.

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    • At a certain point, the onus should be on the Tier 10 who's only ever used his one hax on a completely powerless Tier 10 to prove he could slaughter multiverse busters with it. Not for the multiverse buster to prove he can't be affected by it. NLF and proof by example fallacy is starting to be used more and more hax. Just like what Matt was talking about here.

      But even if we're going to discard that and put people like Monster Carrot's abilities on a ridiculously higher level than they've even shown, things like Jiren's time skip and the Hakai blasts have been countered with sheer power. So at the very least more powerful Dragon Ball characters should be able to resist these same techniques. Now said Dragon Ball characters shouldn't be able to resist all of these types of haxes from all verses, but within their own verse they should be able to resist these particular attacks.

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    • What Wokisan said. Goku predicting Hit's movements is a skill feat for Goku; not a weakness on Hit's side

      "It's useless. The level I'm at is now far ahead of your Time-Leap." 

      Given the fact that Goku said that while using the most powerful form he had up to that point, I think it's logical to think that Goku's level of power defintely played a role in getting around Hit's technique. "

      Just because someone said something in their final form doesn't suddenly make the enemy's hax weak to them via power. Goku getting around Hit's technique isn't inconsistent either since the properties of Ki in DBS have been getting haxier lately, with Goku later shattering Hit's pocket Dimension and Gogeta's fight with Broly shattering full-on Dimensions.

      "As for Jiren, he was heavily supressed when he beat Hit's Cage of Time. Given what Goku did with SSBKKx10, we can safely say that Jiren just released more power to counter Hit. I mean, Jiren was dominating the fight before the Cage of Time. The statement from Vados is more than likely just there to hype Jiren. "

      So ignore a canon statement and theory by an immensely wise and intelligent being in-verse? Vados' statement at worst means Jiren has flat resistance to Time Manipulation abilities; if Hit's time abilities had the weakness of "Weak to stronger opponents" then he would've never even attempted using Time Cage on Jiren who he knows is hilariously stronger than him.  He even thought he would've been able to take Jiren out with him even though he was getting completely dominated in their fight prior.

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    • > At a certain point, the onus should be on the Tier 10 who's only ever used his one hax on a completely powerless Tier 10 to prove he could slaughter multiverse busters with it.

      A tier 10 won't be able to affect a 4-D either way according to our standards, so this is a false analogy.

      > But even if we're going to discard that and put people like Monster Carrot's abilities on a ridiculously higher level than they've even shown, things like Jiren's time skip and the Hakai blasts have been countered with sheer power.

      Hit's Time Skip was never countered via sheer power, casting the manga aside where it is explicitly stated to be a weakness of the technique iself.

      Hakai was never countered through sheer power. Freeza resisted it and we list it as much. Unless you're saying Freeza is stronger than a God of Destruction which is, obviously, completely false.

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    • Except in the previous thread we have people unironically saying Monster Carrot would one touch Zeno and the angels or that Hyssop would freeze them which is why I'm mentioning that.

      Jiren was too strong for the Time Skip to work. That was explicitly mentioned. Even if you want to put it as a weakness on Time Skip's part, then Time Skip's weakness makes it unable to work on characters stronger than Jiren.

      Frieza literally attributes him countering Hakai to his power. He states "Watch my power" as he powers up to weaken the blast. Also Sidra explicitly gave a small portion of his Hakai energy for the minion to use on Frieza, so as you said, false analogy. Frieza's not stronger than Sidra just because he overpowered a small piece of Sidra's power.

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    • Gotta love that 3-A Master Roshi. His redirected Mafuba sealed SSJ Vegeta.

      Ultra Instinct 3-A Composite Roshi solos.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      Gotta love that 3-A Master Roshi. His redirected Mafuba sealed SSJ Vegeta.

      Ultra Instinct 3-A Composite Roshi solos.

      Another false analogy.

      Just because Mafuba can work on stronger opponents doesn't mean that all DB hax works on stronger opponents. Especially the ones that explicitly do not work on stronger opponents.

      Even if Mafuba can work on stronger opponents it shouldn't be NLF'd to working on people ludicrously beyond what he's ever used it on.

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    • Akreious wrote:

      I'm not ignoring it, I'm taking it into context with how I'm looking at the situation. 

      Also, we're talking about Hit's Time-Skip and it's limitations. Cage of Time is a different technique. Time-Skip is Hit freezing everything while he continues to move for a small period of time. Cage of Time is Hit focusing trying to freeze one particular target and requires him to actually strike his target to even pull it off. It's him putting all his effort into holding down a single target.

      So, following that logic, Jiren would still retain his resistance to Time Stop but Goku would lose his. 

      You are free to disagree with me.

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    • Certain hax. Like hakai is absolutely useless vs stronger opponents. That is proven, actually they don’t even have to be stronger, just of similar level. It erases, but only if something is weak enough. Kidna the reason Jiren shits on belmod and the reason other gods aren’t spamming hakai on each other. A technique for weaker mofos. To ignore this would be accepting this 😂😂😂 https://joke-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Beerus_(Hakai_Edition)

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    • > Jiren was too strong for the Time Skip to work. That was explicitly mentioned.

      No it wasn't and Jiren clearly had trouble overpowering it.

      > Frieza literally attributes him countering Hakai to his power. He states "Watch my power" as he powers up to weaken the blast

      This is false. Freeza was initially caught off guard by the Hakai when Sidra's minion lifted his arm to throw it at him. The fact that he had to power up in order to break it means he should have been erased when the blast first him...unless he resisted it, like our profiles say he did.

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    • > Just because Mafuba can work on stronger opponents doesn't mean that all DB hax works on stronger opponents.

      The burden of proof is on you to prove DB hax doesn't work on stronger opponents, considering the clear and set precedent that it does.

      > Especially the ones that explicitly do not work on stronger opponents.

      Of which there are none you have shown yet.

      > Even if Mafuba can work on stronger opponents it shouldn't be NLF'd to working on people ludicrously beyond what he's ever used it on.

      Unless these people are higher-dimensional or have resistance feats then yes, we assume they don't resist it.

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    • The hole thing with Frieza stopping the EoD via sheer power is a little farfetched, IMHO. Frieza resisted it and then used his increased control to compress and control it. I mean, we watched Goku do the same thing to one of Beerus' energy blast earlier in the show and Frieza hadn't just increased in power but also skill at that point.

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    • Ryukama wrote:
      Except in the previous thread we have people unironically saying Monster Carrot would one touch Zeno and the angels...

      Monster Carrot COULD transmute stronger beings, but he can't and won't be able to because the characters in Super are like trillions of times stronger and billions of times faster.

      Monster Carrot would be atomized by Super Goku flexing his muscles a septillion times in a row before he (Monster Carrot) even had the capability of processing any information at all.

      Do you know how many fights against haxxier beings that Dragon Ball characters win because of their AP or Speed advantage? The Dragon Ball character doesn't win because he resists hax via AP, he wins because he is able to kill his opponent before said opponent uses their hax against him. The same is said for these other characters.



      Look at any profile with an offensive hax, including that of Hakai from Dragon Ball. Do you know what you see?

      "Can ignore or negate durability via hax" 

      Hax negates durability, it negates physical strength. Having more physical strength is meaningless.

      No amount of push-ups is going to allow Goku to resist Charles Xavier's mind hax.

      Just because it seems wrong to have such a weaker character have an ability that we don't have proof that God Tiers can resist, doesn't mean you just give out resistances because of that.

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    • It's explained multiple times that it's Jiren's power and strength that makes the Time Skip unable to work on him. And as you said he was struggling to overpower it. He was using his power to resist it.

      Frieza was jokingly pretending to have had the Hakai blast hurt him. And "the fact that Frieza had to power up in order to break it" means he's using his power to counter the attack. So someone with much greater power could do the same thing he's doing. And right when Frieza powers up and condenses the blast down, he says "Allow me to show you the true power of the Golden Frieza. Not "Allow me to show you the magical innate resistance to Hakai blasts unrelated to my power than only I and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have as part of our being". He's only using his power to counteract this blast and its effects on him.

      ^ These hax in DB, plus Chiaotzu's as you admitted can be overpowered. Of course not all hax in DB gets negged by greater power but these particular ones do. And even the ones that can work on higher powers shouldn't be baselessly assumed to work on guys like Zeno and Grand Priest and shit, which is what one of my issues with the previous thread was since people were saying it should.

      Also I'm not even saying Broly resists all existence erasue from weaker opponents. Maybe there's some fictional character with really broken EE that'd smoke Broly's ass despite being weaker than him. But Toppo's in particular doesn't work on Broly. We've seen it get overpowered by a character canonically far weaker than Broly in the series. So that particular technique wouldn't work whether you want to call it some weakness on Toppo's part or a resistance on Broly's part.

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    • TheC2 wrote:
      The hole thing with Frieza stopping the EoD via sheer power is a little farfetched, IMHO. Frieza resisted it and then used his increased control to compress and control it. I mean, we watched Goku do the same thing to one of Beerus' energy blast earlier in the show and Frieza hadn't just increased in power but also skill at that point.

      ^This 

      So much this.

      Saying that Frieza used his Ki to resist the energy of Hakai is baseless.

      In the scene, Frieza powers up to condense the ball of Ki, not increase his resistance.

      Resisting the effects of Hakai are never even brought up in the scene.

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    • Frankly, we do NLF hax a whole bunch. I'm not even referring to Dragon Ball. Just in general.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Frankly, we do NLF hax a whole bunch. I'm not even referring to Dragon Ball. Just in general.

      Honestly I did mention Whis when I was talking about Guldo's time stop in the previous thread but that was because I wasn't sure if they qualified for being higher dimensional. Something about 4D power but a 3D body or something.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Frankly, we do NLF hax a whole bunch. I'm not even referring to Dragon Ball. Just in general.

      ...Sadly, he's not wrong.

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    • < It's explained multiple times that it's Jiren's power and strength that makes the Time Skip unable to work on him. And as you said he was struggling to overpower it. He was using his power to resist it.

      Two statements which are just describing what they actually see instead of anything concrete in that regard. Jiren possesses a power that transcends time. Nothing says he does this via raw strength alone.

      > Frieza was jokingly pretending to have had the Hakai blast hurt him.

      Freeza was caught off guard by the attack at first, and when it clashes with his hands it doesn't do shit to him despite him being both suppressed and off-guard at that time. And despite the fact that the attack itself doesn't do any damage to him nor does he feel it, he still needs to do a big, fancy power-up sequence to his full power and visibly sttrugle in order to compress the raw energy of the attack itself.

      So you're saying that Freeza while suppressed can effortlessly tank an attack that he needs his full-power as well as visible effort to actually negate via raw energy.

      No, no. This is literally proof that Freeza's tanking feat has absolutely nothing to do with the raw power of the attack.

      > Not "Allow me to show you the magical innate resistance to Hakai blasts unrelated to my power than only I and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have as part of our being".

      This is personal disbelief and completely irrelevant to the actual feats shown on-screen.

      > And even the ones that can work on higher powers shouldn't be baselessly assumed to work on guys like Zeno and Grand Priest and shit, which is what one of my issues with the previous thread was since people were saying it should.

      Anyone who isn't higher dimensional or doesn't have resistance feats should be affected. Saying otherwise requires proof.

      > Also I'm not even saying Broly resists all existence erasue from weaker opponents

      Broly doesn't have EE resistance feats to begin with.

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    • TheC2 wrote:
      The hole thing with Frieza stopping the EoD via sheer power is a little farfetched

      More farfetched than Golden Frieza, Base Goku and SSBE Vegeta randomly being the only beings in the multiverse to inexplicably have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power even though Frieza only attributes what he's doing to his power and that Jiren was for some reason seen as by far the most impressive warrior in U11 even though Toppo had an ability that if he wanted to he could've slaughtered Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the entire multiverse except 3 random guys with?

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    • I know that the origin of this thread was within the Broly vs Toppo thread;  That thread highlights the extreme folly of using this forum's usual hax-resistance rules to assess intra-Dragon Ball-verse matches.  The argument that Toppo could beat Broly, a VASTLY more powerful and faster character in the same verse, simply by virtue of "ha ha existence erase, gg mate" is absolutely preposterous.  I even consulted with my various friends who are fellow Dragon Ball fanatics, and all six of them agree unanimously that the idea that Broly couldn't resist Toppo's hakai is absurd.  If freaking ToP saga Golden Frieza could survive it without being erased, then Super Saiyan Broly could dang sure tank it without even a scratch.  The rules of Dragon Ball are clear; if one opponent is literally several times stronger and faster than the other (and Broly >> GoD Toppo, from what we've seen) then they will win the fight handily.

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    • > In almost all cases of hax (besides notably Guldo's back in the Namek Saga), and in all cases in DB Super, we have seen that an opponent can resist them when they obtain power on-par with or surpassing the person with Hax.

      There is literally not ONE instance in the entire original series where this is ever the case (even Nappa vs. Chiaotzu is questionable to use due to the reasons outlined by Wokistan), there are nine instanes where it is not the case.

      This is and always will be false.

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    • Ryukama wrote:

      More farfetched than Golden Frieza, Base Goku and SSBE Vegeta randomly being the only beings in the multiverse to inexplicably have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power even though Frieza only attributes what he's doing to his power and that Jiren was for some reason seen as by far the most impressive warrior in U11 even though Toppo had an ability that if he wanted to he could've slaughtered Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the entire multiverse except 3 random guys with?

      Golden Frieza, Base Goku, and SSBE Vegeta are the only ones that have shown said resistance.

      It is very possible that other beings in the verse, the Angels for example, are also resistant to EE.

      But since they haven't shown it, we can't just assume that it is and give them the resistance without proof.

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    • I am 100% on Kepekley23's side. This isn't a real thing.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Two statements which are just describing what they actually see instead of anything concrete in that regard. Jiren possesses a power that transcends time. Nothing says he does this via raw strength alone.

      > Frieza was jokingly pretending to have had the Hakai blast hurt him.

      Freeza was caught off guard by the attack at first, and when it clashes with his hands it doesn't do shit to him despite him being both suppressed and off-guard at that time. And despite the fact that the attack itself doesn't do any damage to him nor does he feel it, he still needs to do a big, fancy power-up sequence to his full power and visibly sttrugle in order to compress the raw energy of the attack itself.

      So you're saying that Freeza while suppressed can effortlessly tank an attack that he needs his full-power as well as visible effort to actually negate via raw energy.

      No, no. This is literally proof that Freeza's tanking feat has absolutely nothing to do with the raw power of the attack.

      > Not "Allow me to show you the magical innate resistance to Hakai blasts unrelated to my power than only I and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have as part of our being".

      This is personal disbelief and completely irrelevant to the actual feats shown on-screen.

      > And even the ones that can work on higher powers shouldn't be baselessly assumed to work on guys like Zeno and Grand Priest and shit, which is what one of my issues with the previous thread was since people were saying it should.

      Anyone who isn't higher dimensional or doesn't have resistance feats should be affected. Saying otherwise requires proof.

      > Also I'm not even saying Broly resists all existence erasue from weaker opponents

      Broly doesn't have EE resistance feats to begin with.

      It's said in both of these statements that Jiren's power and strength "transcend time". It's far more concrete than any explanation you're coming up with vs what we've been told twice now. Jiren is too strong for Hit's ability to work on. That's everything we've been told. Where in any of these two statements where it's mentioned that Jiren uses anything besides his strength and power to resist it?

      Find anywhere on screen that Frieza's magical innate resistance that only he, Goku and Vegeta randomly inexplicably have is ever shown or stated. Frieza only attributes everything he's doing to his power. Therefore that's the only explanation we're given. Frieza's too powerful for the Hakai to work on him, then when he further powers up he can cancel out the attack entirely.

      Powerscaling. Vegeta and Frieza have feats of overpowering Hakai blasts, and Broly is literally more powerful than those two put together. So he could've also overpowered the blasts.

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    • I'm still siding with Ryu on this, as it's preposterous for example that Toppo's second fiddle to Jiren when he can lolhakai, and with the other stuff Ryu's pointing out, it's a noticeable problem. The main things against this are other incidents, which Ryu isn't even saying that are problematic, and they can keep their NLFs, as that's not what he's arguing for.

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    • It's a thing that makes sense for him to resist within the context of the story, but he hasn't demonstrated.

      Basically its the whole "narrative/author intent vs shown feats" argument central to vs debating.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I am 100% on Kepekley23's side. This isn't a real thing.

      How about previously when you mentioned we shouldn't be NLFing hax to work on anyone no matter the gap and that it's ridiculous to claim things like Monster Carrot's touch or Hyssop's ice attack would work on Grand Priest and Zeno?

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    • It's not a 100% one or one thing on either level, that much is obvious.

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    • He can change his mind

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    • Nobody's been saying that it's all or nothing.

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    • Personally, I'm not saying that Broly could resist EE hax of characters from OTHER VERSES, by the way.  In fact, I suspect that the durability-negating EE hax of other verses would totally trash him, because they are true durability-negating; but the thing is, such hax in Dragon Ball have not actually been shown to be durability-negating; they have ONLY ever been shown to work that way against opponents a good deal weaker than the Hakai user.  I don't know why our DB Super cahracter profiles even list Hakai as being "durability negating."  It may be existence-erasure, but Hakai is NOT durability-negating against people with Ki-based durability.

      Keep in mind that existence-erasure in and of itself is not necessarily durability-negating, at all.  All it means is erasing the enemy from existence (in this case, completely erasing their physical body along with their soul), not that one can do it regardless of durability; in fact, what basis would we POSSIBLY have for thinking that Hakai in DB is durability-negating when it is CLEARLY shown to be a POWER-based technique and thus limited in the power of the beings it can effect?  It is a technique which somehow uses godly levels of sheer power to create an existence-erasing effect; but, that effect doesn't work on opponents surpassing the power used to create the energy of destruction.

      That explanation is FAR more consistent with everything regarding Hakai (as well as time-stop feats, but yeah) shown in the series, than the explanation "Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza somehow magically have special super magical hax resistance powers that no one else has exhibited" which seems to be what people want to go with here.

      Edit:  Perhaps not other hax in the series have been shown to work this way.  Certainly not Buu's or Carrot's transmutation hax.  But Time Stop hax, with the exception of Guldo's, have been shown to work the way I've described in the DB Verse, and all instances of EE hax aside from Zeno's (and that's more just because we don't know what exactly his powers are, at this point) have been shown to work in a "power-based" way rather than a "durability-negating" way. In fact, it really seems the only difference between Hakai and other God-Tier Ki attacks is that it erases the soul along with the body; otherwise it seems pretty much the same.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: It's not a 100% one or one thing on either level, that much is obvious.

      That's what Ryu is saying. He is saying that the specific powers he is talking about can be overpowered with sheer power because that's what is stated.

      He isn't making any general rule

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    • Wokistan wrote:

      Basically its the whole "narrative/author intent vs shown feats" argument central to vs debating.

      That's major underlying issue here, me thinks. 

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    • Just like how anilaza bends space with pure power. Or how gogeta and broly breaking dimensions. Strength. It makes no sense but I happens. Jiren transcendending time because he is strong. Doesn’t make sense but that’s how. Easy..

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    • Kaltias wrote:

      That's what Ryu is saying. He is saying that the specific powers he is talking about can be overpowered with sheer power because that's what is stated.

      He isn't making any general rule

      Exactly. Here's the thing. I'm not claiming Broly can resist all existence erasure from any character who's weaker than him. I'm not saying that DB characters use AP to negate hax in every circumstance.

      I am merely saying that Toppo's technique in particular got overpowered by someone vastly weaker than Broly, so Broly could also overpower Toppo's technique in particular.

      Oh and also that Tier 10s with transmutation shouldn't be NLF'd into beating multiverse busters. But if you don't agree with that fine. I still stand by Broly resisting Toppo in particular's technique.

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    • Kaltias wrote:

      Matthew Schroeder wrote: It's not a 100% one or one thing on either level, that much is obvious.

      That's what Ryu is saying. He is saying that the specific powers he is talking about can be overpowered with sheer power because that's what is stated.

      He isn't making any general rule

      Yes exactly, see my post right above yours too.  Summary of my main point:  The PARTICULAR hax in DB-verse in question, Existence Erasure, has only ever been shown to work in a "power-based" fashion; really, the only difference between Hakai and other GoD-tier Ki Blasts is that it erases the soul along with the body; it has never been shown to be durability-negating in any way, so I have no idea why characters with Hakai are listed as having durability-negation.

      Gods of Destruction and Toppo are not durability-negating and their profiles should not say so.

      Not sure how this isn't obvious, really.  Where people are getting the durability-negation idea from is beyond me.

      I mean sure, the series has had non-power-based hax that are durabillity negating, like Monster Carrot's transmutation abilities; but Hakai is certainly not one of those, it has clearly been shown to have limits based on the power put into it.

      I mean, as a hax power, existence-erasure isn't necessarily always durabiltity-negating, and yet everyone has seemed to assume that GoD's can negate durability despite there never being a single shred of evidence in the series to support that.

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    • Don’t think this thread is very useful. Certain hax in dB clearly already show this limitation to power. Saying all is pushing it. Which I don’t agree with. But for the ones that was proven aka hakai, already a given

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    • Regarding Hakai, my thoughts align with Goodyfresh.

      The fact that it can be overcome by raw power, plus Sidra was even holding back his Hakai against Frieza means that it doesn’t negate durability. It simply acts like any other Ki blast and erases the opponent if they’re weaker.

      Plus, that would imply that Beerus could just poof Zeno out of existence when he’s clearly portrayed to be vastly inferior, hence his fear of him.

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    • Ryukama wrote:

      Find anywhere on screen that Frieza's magical innate resistance that only he, Goku and Vegeta randomly inexplicably have is ever shown or stated. Frieza only attributes everything he's doing to his power. Therefore that's the only explanation we're given. Frieza's too powerful for the Hakai to work on him, then when he further powers up he can cancel out the attack entirely.

      Powerscaling. Vegeta and Frieza have feats of overpowering Hakai blasts, and Broly is literally more powerful than those two put together. So he could've also overpowered the blasts.

      Frieza never even mentions resistance in the scene.

      He says, "I'll show you my power", and then he SHRINKS the ki blast into a ball the size of his palm.

      That has nothing to do with resistance, that has to do with manipulating Sidra's ki blast.



      Energy of Destruction are physically ki blasts with EE properties, if you resist the EE, then there is no difference between that attack and any other ki blast. That's why we saw Vegeta overpower it, and that's why we saw Frieza manipulate it.

      They aren't resisting EE because of they're ki level. They have a resistance to EE, and because of that are able to touch the blast and either smack them away like Vegeta or manipulate their form like Frieza.

      Hell, we even see Frieza get viciously overpowered by G.o.D. Toppo, and Frieza shows to not be affected by the EE properties of Hakai, despite the difference in their strength even when Toppo was holding back.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: It's not a 100% one or one thing on either level, that much is obvious.

      ^

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    • Alright this how hakai works.

      It erases. But not anything and everything. The limitation is the power of Who it is used on or who is using it. It’s basically an attack. A giant energy ball would be the same as hakai. But there is one major difference. If I kill you with a giant ki blast you die. If I kill you with hakai you vanish from existence. The EE properties are there, however it’s more of the enemy has to be weak enough. If Beerus threw a hakai at a 2-C, it would bounce off of him. Why? It’s the same as a any other ki blast. It doesn’t erase whatever it touches, it erases whatever is weak enough.

      You should look at it like this. The result of what happens when you kill someone with hakai vs when you kill someone with a ki attack. One makes you disappear. Possibly countering any regen or resurrection. A ki blast would probably just kill you, maybe vaporize you, etc. but not erase.

      So there is no “you need hakai resistance.” No, you just don’t need to be weak enough for you to be erased by the attack. If you are too weak to handle hakai, you get erased on the spot. If you are strong it does nothing. If you are strong but a battles draws out and you are weakened extremely then it could erase when the opponent is theoretically weak enough. It just doesn’t erase anything it touches and is clearly limited to power.

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    • GoddessOfWinterr- wrote:
      Alright this how hakai works.

      It erases. But not anything and everything. The limitation is the power of Who it is used on or who is using it. It’s basically an attack. A giant energy ball would be the same as hakai. But there is one major difference. If I kill you with a giant ki blast you die. If I kill you with hakai you vanish from existence. The EE properties are there, however it’s more of the enemy has to be weak enough. If Beerus threw a hakai at a 2-C, it would bounce off of him. Why? It’s the same as a any other ki blast. It doesn’t erase whatever it touches, it erases whatever is weak enough.

      You should look at it like this. The result of what happens when you kill someone with hakai vs when you kill someone with a ki attack. One makes you disappear. Possibly countering any regen or resurrection. A ki blast would probably just kill you, maybe vaporize you, etc. but not erase.

      No.

      Hakai doesn't work like this for the reasons that I have stated.

      It doesn't just erase things that have been killed. Toppo's shield showed us that any object that touched his aura or the objects that his blasts touched was erased. They didn't kill stuff and then erased them from existence after already vaporizing them.

      Not to mention, the Hakai that Beerus used against Zamasu isn't a Ki blast, and can't be dodged.

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    • This is a wonderful explanation that deserves to be applauded.

      Edit: This is directed at Goddess, not Warren.

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    • Thanks.

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    • That’s a bad example because those were just rocks my guy. If his hakai can’t erase rubble then he gunna be in trouble. I didn’t say they needed to be killed. I said if it’s weak enough. Then it gets erased right then right there. But if then opponent is stronge enough then you would need to weaken and kill. Yes it’s gunna erase weaker things on the spot, is his hakai not superior to rocks? So they get erased instantly.

      In order to instant erase you need to be a lot superior. How much is unknown, but we know Beerus is far above zamasu. However if something is strong enough say vegeta, then all your hakai is, is another ki blast. But if you weaken vegeta, and then use hakai, he goes bye bye.

      And I know the Beerus one ain’t a blast. But it’s still hakai. It changes nothing. Do you think Beerus can hakai broly the same way? I’m gunna disagree. Broly gunna look at him like “dude wtf?” As he grabs his face and smashes him into the ground

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    • I hope I understood one side of this thread horribly wrong.

      If I didn't, it means the verse barely has any hax to begin with and now we're going this close to saying anyone who has enough AP resists the EE and other such hax from DB regardless of having displayed a resistance to any equivalent in their home verse because there's the possibility that in-verse for DB, people with enough ki overcome it.

      ...At least as far as I see, that should be a property and resistance to the ki users from DB. They have enough power/ki control, they can resist or otherwise nope these specific skills/hax to the same level displayed in their verse.

      It doesn't mean we should suddenly say that anyone who can "punch harder"  in other verses should suddenly resist their hax if they have 0 feats of resisting any equivalent to go along with it.  

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    • Zamasu was 3-A and Beerus is Low 2-C.

      Of course Hakai would insta-erase Zamasu. The prospect of Beerus being able to Hakai Zeno though is laughable.

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    • Wokistan wrote:
      It's a thing that makes sense for him to resist within the context of the story, but he hasn't demonstrated.

      Basically its the whole "narrative/author intent vs shown feats" argument central to vs debating.

      I heavily agree with this. Based on what has been shown on screen, Hakai could potentially erase Zeno. However, in the actual story if someone tried it, it would probably turns out that Zeno resists.

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    • GoddessOfWinterr- wrote:
      That’s a bad example because those were just rocks my guy. If his hakai can’t erase rubble then he gunna be in trouble. I didn’t say they needed to be killed. I said if it’s weak enough. Then it gets erased right then right there. But if then opponent is stronge enough then you would need to weaken and kill. Yes it’s gunna erase weaker things on the spot, is his hakai not superior to rocks? So they get erased instantly

      What you said isn't stated or implied anywhere in the series at all, it is baseless. 

      "If it's weaker than it works like this, but if it is stronger than it works like this" is you applying headcanon.



      I am going to debunk the whole "Ki Energy level = Hakai resistance" right now.

      There are multiple times in the fight with Frieza where we see Energy blasts being erased by Toppo's Hakai.

      Here's an example.  

      But in the same exact fight, we see Frieza being physically touched both by Toppo and by his energy and is not erased at all.

      Proving that Frieza's resistance to EE comes from an innate resistance, not from his Ki.  

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    • It still erases people. If someone is simply too strong to be erased on the spot, there is always the option of weakening to a certain point and then erase with hakai. Remember, hakai would counter reassurection or regen. So it’s not entirely useless. Could work on ghosts too. The properties of destruction are there, they take effect when someone is weak enough. Whether that be at the start, or weakening someone to a certain point and then finishing them up.

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    • I'm neutral on how we're going to apply this in-verse btw, but I 100% disagree with the thought of Hax being resisted by characters outside the verse "via AP" if they have 0 resistance feats in their verse to a corresponding type of hax.

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    • GoddessOfWinterr- wrote:
      It still erases people. If someone is simply too strong to be erased on the spot, there is always the option of weakening to a certain point and then erase with hakai. Remember, hakai would counter reassurection or regen. So it’s not entirely useless. Could work on ghosts too. The properties of destruction are there, they take effect when someone is weak enough. Whether that be at the start, or weakening someone to a certain point and then finishing them up.

      What are you talking about? Why are you bringing up benefits of the Hakai?

      Toppo negated Frieza's energy casually, but he couldn't erase Frieza in the same manner.

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    • FateAlbane wrote:
      I'm neutral on how we're going to apply this in-verse btw, but I 100% disagree with the thought of Hax being resisted by characters outside the verse "via AP" if they have 0 resistance feats in their verse to a corresponding type of hax.

      We are not talking about hax being resisted outside of the verse though. 

      We are talking about the validity of Hakai, and whether or not it is AP based.

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    • @Warren And that's more or less my point. I disagree with it being treated as purely AP Based.

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    • @Warren Valion That’s GoD Toppo, a Low 2-C vs a Ki blast from a 3-A. Of course that’s getting erased.

      Toppo was also holding back.

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    • There are multiple things to consider on why I never wanted to mention Frieza. One killing equals disqualification. There is no reason to assume he is 100% trying to kill. He could be weakening the attack just enough to heavily hurt his body.

      Another thing to consider, a character in dragon ball > the attacks they throw out. Jiren did his ultimate attack but goku caught it casually, and dispersed it no problem. However he had issues actually putting Jiren himself out of the fight. There are infinite examples of a fighter getting his attacks fodderize but take a massive beating, hit by a powerful blast and Be fine. Android 17 barriers can get one shot. But he himself has never been one shot. See why I don’t like bringing up Frieza now?

      Too much to consider.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Warren Valion That’s GoD Toppo, a Low 2-C vs a Ki blast from a 3-A. Of course that’s getting erased.

      Toppo was also holding back.

      Toppo was holding back the entire time so he didn't kill Frieza.

      But if a causally suppressed Toppo can erase energy, why couldn't he erasure Frieza when he grabbed him?

      Maybe, it is because he has a resistance to EE as shown multiple times with Super.

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    • He was holding back from crushing Frieza's head physically, Toppo's fist was still covered in the same hakai energy that dusted everything else that touched him.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Warren Valion That’s GoD Toppo, a Low 2-C vs a Ki blast from a 3-A. Of course that’s getting erased.

      Toppo was also holding back.

      Toppo was holding back the entire time so he didn't kill Frieza.

      But if a causally suppressed Toppo can erase energy, why couldn't he erasure Frieza when he grabbed him?

      Maybe, it is because he has a resistance to EE as shown multiple times with Super.

      You just answered your own question.

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    • And that’s that. I gave a very important second example in case anyone needed it.

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    • GoddessOfWinterr-
      GoddessOfWinterr- removed this reply because:
      02:38, January 29, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • GoddessOfWinterr- wrote:
      There are multiple things to consider on why I never wanted to mention Frieza. One killing equals disqualification. There is no reason to assume he is 100% trying to kill. He could be weakening the attack just enough to heavily hurt his body.

      Another thing to consider, a character in dragon ball > the attacks they throw out. Jiren did his ultimate attack but goku caught it casually, and dispersed it no problem. However he had issues actually putting Jiren himself out of the fight. There are infinite examples of a fighter getting his attacks fodderize but take a massive beating, hit by a powerful blast and Be fine. Android 17 barriers can get one shot. But he himself has never been one shot. See why I don’t like bringing up Frieza now?

      God Toppo was holding back untill he fought SSJBE Vegeta. That's why Frieza wasn't destroyed instantly by a causal punch, but he can't "hold back" the EE effect of his aura when he is covered in it.

      That makes no sense and wasn't shown or stated anywhere.


      Dragon Ball characters are weaker than the Ki blast that they throw, what are you talking about? Remember Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz?

      Goku himself was at a power level of 416, but when he charged up a Kamehameha, Goku's power level skyrocketed to 924.


      Android 17's barriers are explicitly shown to be far more durable than he is numerous times in the series, they are unique in that aspect.


      Bring up Frieza debunks your argument, is that why you don't like bringing it up? 

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      You just answered your own question.

      Toppo was holding back his physical strength, so when he was squishing Frieza's head, he didn't pop it like a balloon.

      He can't "hold back" the EE effect of the Hakai armor.

      1. That's completely nonsensical

      2. It was never shown, implied, or stated to be the case.

      3. Toppo just became a G.o.D. and IIRC, he was stated to not have full control over his Hakai yet, so to say he can do what you are insinuating is preposterous. 

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    • his aura Also didn’t erase the floor he was standing on. Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn.

      2. Not always the case. But numerous times in dbs where an opponent gets his attacked easily destroyed but takes much worse punishment.

      The part about 17 is a damn lie. How often does his Barrie crack and get one shot but he tanks everything far better than his actual barrier?

      4. Frieza is irrelevant to my point. Toppo is holding back. And add that on top of, it’s not uncommon for chars to be far more impressive than the abilities they’d dish out. Frieza can take a big ball. His attack can’t tank a small pebble hakai.


      Why am I here again?

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    • Toppo
      " But if then opponent is stronge enough then you would need to weaken and kill. Yes it’s gunna erase weaker things on the spot, is his hakai not superior to rocks? So they get erased instantly"
      Topooo

      But there are multiple points during this stomp of a fight where Toppo touches Frieza with the hands that are covered in Hakai energy and Frieza doesn't get erased. Yes, I know that Toppo was holding back but that's referring to killing him normally as Toppo is vastly physically surperior to Frieza. It's not like Toppo can make it so that his Hakai can erase only erase certain things, by your logic a weaker being like Frieza should have been EE'd.

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    • I was going to mention just that.

      The fact that Toppo doesn’t passively erase the floor he’s standing on shows that he can hold back the EE effect of his aura.

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    • Please don’t mention that aura ever again. The ground he is standing on isn’t erased either. I wonder why. I bet whatevs the reason can Be applied to the reason Frieza ain’t erased rn. Lool

      But yea don’t mention that selective aura.

      Gtg gl shadow

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIibVu0Lm3E

      Okay, then back to this. Sidra is Low 2-C and Golden Frieza is 3-A. Sidra's Hakai does not Erase Frieza from existence. Sure, Frieza struggles with it and powers up, but the point is that Sidra was stronger than Frieza yet his Hakai didn't instantly kill Frieza even when he caught him off guard.

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    • Heck, it didn't kill Goku when Frieza hit him with.

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    • GoddessOfWinterr- wrote:
      his aura Also didn’t erase the floor he was standing on. Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn.

      2. Not always the case. But numerous times in dbs where an opponent gets his attacked easily destroyed but takes much worse punishment.

      The part about 17 is a damn lie. How often does his Barrie crack and get one shot but he tanks everything far better than his actual barrier?

      4. Frieza is irrelevant to my point. Toppo is holding back. And add that on top of, it’s not uncommon for chars to be far more impressive than the abilities they’d dish out. Frieza can take a big ball. His attack can’t tank a small pebble hakai.


      Why am I here again?

      You know in fiction when most people become intangible they are still able to walk on solid ground even though logically they should just fall through? Yeah, this is clearly one of those occasions.

      It's called a plot hole. Even objects that touch his aura when he was unaware were passively erased.

      I would say Frieza surviving being squished was a plothole too if it wasn't consistent with his feat earlier in the series of resisting Hakai.


      Yes, this is always the case. The character's ki blasts are always stronger than there punches unless they are holding back significantly. Frieza obviously wasn't in this case.


      >Saying 17's barrier isn't special and abnormally durable when compared to his own physical strength.

      Are you serious? Did you even watch the Tournament Arc?

      Android 17, who's 3-A, was able to take multiple hits from a Low 2-C consistently.

      Multiple combined ki blasts from the Z-Fighters, including 17, did nothing to Anilaza's attack, but Android 17's shield is capable of pushing it back.

      The examples go on and on.


      Toppo is physically holding back his strength, he can't "hold back" the effect of Hakai, especially since he was stated that as a brand new God of Destruction that he can't control his Hakai very well.


      Everything you have said has been completely wrong, isn't corroborated by the series, and in fact, is actually contradicted within the series. 

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    • Don't think that a scene where Toppo outright says "I'm trying to spare you" is a good example for Frieza resisting EE.

      It is possible that he is holding it back, given that people holding back all the time in DB is a thing (I mean just look at Jiren).

      Maybe he can hold back the Energy of Destruction, maybe he can't, but in the latter case, the question is why he'd even touch Frieza with Hakai Aura on.

      Doesn't exactly sound like "I don't want to kill you" to me

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    • It would also be weird if base Frieza's resistance was >>> Golden Frieza's, given that he obviously struggled far more to resist against Sidra than against Toppo's armor

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    • Anyone who has actually watched dragonball can see that most hax don't work on stronger characters 

      I.e vegito and buu

      sidra and frieza 

      Sidra and Goku 

      Toppo and vegeta and frieza 

      Cell and the kienzan

      It's shown to work in such a way that if you are stronger than your opponent you can resist hax this makes more sense than giving 3 random people inexplicable resistance to existence erasure but not giving it to anyone else along with giving vegito and no one else resistance to transmutation or giving cell some resistance to durability negation.  It's more baseless to attribute these cases to some random  resistance that just popped up out of no where than to their actual strength

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    • Frieza isn't stronger than Sidra. Sidra is Low 2-C. Frieza is 3-A.

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    • Kaltias wrote:
      It would also be weird if base Frieza's resistance was >>> Golden Frieza's, given that he obviously struggled far more to resist against Sidra than against Toppo's armor

      Frieza didn't have any trouble resisting the effects of Hakai though.

      He acted like he was being hurt, laughed in the face of the fodder character who was given some of Sidra's energy when he stops his act, said, "Behold my power" and proceded to shrink the Energy of Destruction to a ball the size of his fist, and then he threw it at Goku.

      He showed damage or even mark in the slightest at any point in the scene. The only time we see him put forth effort was to increase his power and shrink the Hakai energy.



      As I said, there is nothing in the scene that proves that Frieza was powering up to "improve his resistance", it just doesn't happen. He uses his Ki to manipulate Sidra's Ki by shrinking it and then flaunts about how strong he was. 

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    • Kaltias wrote:
      Don't think that a scene where Toppo outright says "I'm trying to spare you" is a good example for Frieza resisting EE.

      It is possible that he is holding it back, given that people holding back all the time in DB is a thing (I mean just look at Jiren).

      Maybe he can hold back the Energy of Destruction, maybe he can't, but in the latter case, the question is why he'd even touch Frieza with Hakai Aura on.

      Doesn't exactly sound like "I don't want to kill you" to me

      Well, it is undeniable that Toppo was holding back his physical strength, per tournament rules. No one would or should ever deny that Toppo was doing that.

      But to say that he can hold back the EE properties of his Hakai armor, when IIRC, it was explicitly stated that because he was a brand new God of Destruction that he couldn't control his Hakai perfectly yet, seems a little ridiculous. 

      As for why he'd grab Frieza, why not? Frieza flaunted that he can't be affected by Hakai, and he physically just proved it by not being erased when he took a giant Hakai blast to the face. If he can survive all that, why would he die to his head being grabbed?

      A feat which Frieza's energy blasts couldn't replicate, I might add.

      Not to mention that G.o.D. Toppo was kind of brutal. I mean he almost popped Frieza's skull like a balloon for Pete's sake. I wouldn't doubt it if he really didn't care about being disqualified when he so readily believes in Jiren's strength to succeed.

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    • Sooooo 17 can get one shot by ribrianne without his barrier? GOD Toppo can crack his barrier with some beams but 17 himself is just fine when being hit by his attacks? Look at it as extra protection. His barrier are NOT more durable than his actual body. No. They get shattered all the time.

      What on earthland is making anyone think 17’s barriers are more durable then him when he doesn’t get one shot, at all, and you see his barrier crack from basic attacks? THEY ARE NOTTT more durable than he himself. Unless you think anyone including ribri can one shot 17 without his barrier. Jiren punches through his barriers easily. Why did you mention punches? I clearly mean durability.


      Not sure why you brought up the intangible example. The point is, he is covered in hakai aura. Frieza wasn’t erased, vegeta wasn’t erased, the ground wasn’t erased.

      Again, don’t bring up that aura. Itself literally a non factor. I have never used that aura in any of my arguments, for good reasons. It’s dogshit, not gunna use it.

      His hakai aura is selective or very limited, plus plot. Again please stop mentioning this nonsense cause I am not going to talk about that terrible aura again.

      There are plenty of times in dragon ball, where at attack is easily stopped, yet the person that fired it, can take far more punishment and force than the actual attack. Literally everyone is an example in the tournament. 17’s barriers offer extra protection. That doesn’t mean the barriers themselves are more durable than him NOOOOO. NOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOO. It’s like me putting on a coat. Is the coat More durable than me? No... but it offers extra protection...... easy right?

      Frieza uses his ultimate attack. It gets destroyed by a pebble hakai, yet he himself can take a bigger one. So yea I’m pretty sure I’m right here. Anywhk you made me dive in all weird directions just to keep going.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIibVu0Lm3E

      Okay, then back to this. Sidra is Low 2-C and Golden Frieza is 3-A. Sidra's Hakai does not Erase Frieza from existence. Sure, Frieza struggles with it and powers up, but the point is that Sidra was stronger than Frieza yet his Hakai didn't instantly kill Frieza even when he caught him off guard.

      ^

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    • That hakai was fired by someone far weaker than sidra and was a tiny amount of the energy 

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    • What does who fired it have to do with anything? It was made by Sidra and given to the merc.

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    • let me also explain why I mentioned character durability> attacks they throw out. You talked about Toppo erasing his attacks but not Frieza. I’m not saying this is the reason why but it’s worth noting

      An attack a character can throw out in dragon ball< their actual durability. I can probably find 200 examples. So me mentioning that is a worth note. That just because his attack was erased meant nothing.

      A worth note.

      2nd, intention. Toppo only wants to beat Frieza... he’s not trying to erase him. He’s clearly holding back. So no Frieza resisting anything. And I don’t want to here “he’s a noob god”, idc, he can clearly alter how much power he wants to use.

      3rd, that aura is a non factor

      4th, yea. That’s it. Frieza ain’t a good example. Use vegeta.

      This dragged on way longer than it should. You mentioning Toppo can’t hold back bc he is a noob is a no. Stop. Hakai has limits. Hopefully I ended this, this time

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    • Paul Frank wrote: That hakai was fired by someone far weaker than sidra and was a tiny amount of the energy 

      Plus we know the 3-A and low 2-C gap in dB ain’t Infinite. So I have no idea why anyone mentioned this. Otherwise i’m Calling for low 2-C android 17, and hit

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      What does who fired it have to do with anything? It was made by Sidra and given to the merc.

      Yes it was made by sidra with a small amount of hakai energy and given to the merc as in

      It was a weaker hakai than if the actual sidra hakai'd someone 

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    • “I’ll give you some energy of destruction.”

      Is that how it went down? Toppo was weaker than sidra but he fired it directly. lol......

      I’m unfollowing. Take whatever information I sent and do whatever

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    • God Toppo is Low 2-C, Android 17 is 3-A.

      His barrier being able to take attacks from God Toppo is one of the reasons why it is considered stronger than his normal durability. How can you misconstrue this?

      Another example is the Analiza situation that I mentioned in my previous comment, that you never debunked by the way.

      And seriously? Jiren's barrier's easily punching through Andriod 17's barriers proves that they don't have greater durability? You do know Jiren is a beyond G.o.D. level characters and is Low 2-C, right? 

      And what does Android 17 without his barrier have to with anything? Or Ribrianne for that matter? I also never said that he would lose to Ribrianne, so don't strawman me. 

      We are talking about the strength of 17's barriers and why they are superior to his normal durability. Which is shown through numerous examples throughout the series. Barley being able to survive higher tiered character's attacks just proves this.



      How could you not understand my analogy? It was crystal clear.

      Frieza and Vegeta weren't erased because they have resistance, the floor wasn't erased because it was a plot hole.

      As I said, you know how in fiction people can become intangible, and despite that, they can walk on top of the ground even though they should fall right through? Toppo should be erasing the ground that his feet are standing on, but he doesn't, because the writers didn't think about that or didn't care. That does not mean that Toppo can control his aura's erasure properties when it was stated that Toppo can't control Hakai very well since he's a new G.o.D., IIRC.



      Your arguments are irrelevant to mine, and no, it isn't "dogshit", it proves my point.



      You do know that just because an attack is bigger than another attack, doesn't mean it's stronger, right? God Goku's Kamehameha is smaller than the Large Spirit Bomb on Namek, but that doesn't mean it's weaker. It's called density, dude.

      And Frieza's physically body surviving Hakai, when it was shown that his energy was erased multiple times just proves my point that his resistance isn't based on Ki. 

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    • GoddessOfWinterr- wrote:
      let me also explain why I mentioned character durability> attacks they throw out. You talked about Toppo erasing his attacks but not Frieza. I’m not saying this is the reason why but it’s worth noting

      An attack a character can throw out in dragon ball< their actual durability. I can probably find 200 examples. So me mentioning that is a worth note. That just because his attack was erased meant nothing.

      A worth note.

      2nd, intention. Toppo only wants to beat Frieza... he’s not trying to erase him. He’s clearly holding back. So no Frieza resisting anything. And I don’t want to here “he’s a noob god”, idc, he can clearly alter how much power he wants to use.

      3rd, that aura is a non factor

      4th, yea. That’s it. Frieza ain’t a good example. Use vegeta.

      This dragged on way longer than it should. You mentioning Toppo can’t hold back bc he is a noob is a no. Stop. Hakai has limits. Hopefully I ended this, this time

      Why don't you list examples that prove your point and actually enter in a debate?

      Holding back physical strength is something every character in Dragon Ball can do.

      Holding back erasure properties of an attack that has erasure properties when the character is stated to not be able to do anything on that level at this time is completely different, and comparing them is a complete false equivalently.



      Hakai's limits are resistances to EE, which I have proven again and again. Everything you have said you have never backed up with proof and never debunked the proof of the opposite. You just said, "No." or, "That's wrong".

      You need reasoning with evidence.

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    • Paul Frank wrote:

      DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      What does who fired it have to do with anything? It was made by Sidra and given to the merc.

      Yes it was made by sidra with a small amount of hakai energy and given to the merc as in

      It was a weaker hakai than if the actual sidra hakai'd someone 

      Yes, he gave him the attack. Where does it being weaker come from?

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    • The fact that the hakai fired by the merc could only be as powerful as the limited amount of hakai energy he was given 

      In other words say sidra gave him like 1% of his hakai energy that means said hakai that was fired could only be that strong as opposed to if used by sidra who can actually use all his power in the attack 

      And as for the resistance to EE thing can someone who supports this frankly baseless line of thinking explain how 3 random characters just gained that resistance because last I checked none of them trained with hakai energy to learn to resist it or anything along those lines so that would mean either they just gained a resistance that no other character has or they have had it all along in which case namek saga frieza would also resist hakai and beerus would have to use something else to kill him 

      So since Zeno and the grand priest have never shown resistance to EE I guess beerus and the other gods are just pretending to be scared cause they can hakai Zeno the grand priest and his guards 

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    • Paul Frank wrote:

      And as for the resistance to EE thing can someone who supports this frankly baseless line of thinking explain how 3 random characters just gained that resistance because last I checked none of them trained with hakai energy to learn to resist it or anything along those lines so that would mean either they just gained a resistance that no other character has or they have had it all along in which case name saga frieza would also resist hakai and beerus would have to use something else to kill him 

      So since Zeno and the grand priest have never shown resistance to EE I guess beerus and the other gods are just pretending to be scared cause they can hakai Zeno the grand priest and his guards 

      Characters gain resistances to different abilities all the time in fiction. Vegito against Super Buu's Candy Beam anyone?  They are given the resistance just because they are shown to resist them.

      There doesn't need to be an explicit training montage where they show them learning to resist an attack. Especially considering that this resistance has nothing to do with their energy and everything to do with their nature.

      If we went by such standards, then 3/4ths of resistances on the wiki would need to be removed via lack of training montage. It's a ridiculous notion.


      That's Backwards Scaling, we don't do that. They have shown the resistance in a certain form, at a certain time. You don't apply it to previous forms.


      Zeno, the Angels, and the Grand Priest haven't SHOWN a resistance, this doesn't mean they don't possibly have one, but we need feats proving as such. We can't just give away resistances, "because it doesn't make sense otherwise". This is an argument from incredulity. 

      As of right now, they haven't shown resistance to EE, and they will stay without said resistance unless they do in the future. 

      This is what is presented to us, and this is how we must extrapolate the information.

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    • Vegito doesn't resist buuhans beam he just stays able to move because he is too strong for the technique to work fully

      I never said a training montage it's more that they actually were all but confirmed to not have trained with hakai energy due to not even knowing that's how you trained to be a g.o.d

      Ok they resist it in a certain form so base Goku and base frieza gained a resistance that their base form didn't have before because they got stronger 

      I mean you can call it an argument from incredulity if you want but do tell if they don't resist EE and you can't resist hakai if you are stronger, why are the gods scared of Zeno, why not just have all of them jump and erase him

      What is presented to us in many more instances is that more ki and better ki control in db can negate hax at the very least to a certain extent 

      I.e vegito being able to move as candy 

      Cell tanking a kienzan and not being beheaded even though the kienzan is stated and shown to negate durability 

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      Vegito doesn't resist buuhans beam he just stays able to move because he is too strong for the technique to work fully

      I never said a training montage it's more that they actually were all but confirmed to not have trained with hakai energy due to not even knowing that's how you trained to be a g.o.d

      Ok they resist it in a certain form so base Goku and base frieza gained a resistance that their base form didn't have before because they got stronger 

      I mean you can call it an argument from incredulity if you want but do tell if they don't resist EE and you can't resist hakai if you are stronger, why are the gods scared of Zeno, why not just have all of them jump and erase him

      What is presented to us in many more instances is that more ki and better ki control in db can negate hax at the very least to a certain extent 

      I.e vegito being able to move as candy 

      Cell tanking a kienzan and not being beheaded even though the kienzan is stated and shown to negate durability 

      Vegito has a small resistance to transmutation. Not an immunity or anything, but the ability for his strength to not change no matter what shape he is in is still a resistance. The profiles show as much.

      As I said, most examples in fiction don't have characters train to learn their resistance, they are just seen with it.


      There can be numerous possible reasons:

      Zeno is likely to just erase them first. He is very mercurial and even the smallest of things can tick him off to erase something or someone.

      And it is clearly obvious that Zeno's erasure is also >>> than any G.o.D.'s.

      Or as I said, it is a strong possibility that Zeno DOES have a resistance. However, it is never shown and we can't just give out abilities or resistances without proof.

      Or maybe it's just shitty writing, this is Super after all.


      That is never presented to us at all what are you talking about. More Ki =/= Hax negated.

      As for your examples, no you are wrong on both accounts.

      Vegito was stated in the Daizenshuu that he has special characteristics that allows him his resistance. Nothing about more Ki is ever implied.

      As for the Kienzan, do tell but where was it ever stated to negate durability? I don't remember that anywhere.

      And just because it was shown to effect stronger opponents doesn't mean it is durability negating hax or anything. Tien's Tri-Beam worked on Semi-Perfect Cell, and you wouldn't call that "durability negating hax", now would you? No, it's an ability that works on stronger opponents. That's all.

      And besides, Cell tanking a Kienzan was anime filler.

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    • You all realise that this thread would mean that Toppo solo DBS, including Zeno if you follow the 'magic unmentionned, unexplained, and inherent resistance for 3 random character' way of thinking ? does anyone realise how dumb that conclusion is ?

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    • Something along the lines of “Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents” under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.

      Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Something along the lines of “Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents” under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.

      Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

      It's not a weakness of the hax, it's a capacity of the characters, otherwise all hax that were ever resisted are just inferior than those that weren't, Avada Kadavra would be superior to Xavier's mind power.

      unless we start following the hax page and consider hax like any stats, AKA, it need feats to actualy work on a highter level, if you want to argue that the hax work on a multiversal characters, then the hax would need to have multiversal level feats.

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    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Something along the lines of “Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents” under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.

      Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

      We actually saw Frieza being overwhelmed and consumed into an Hakai by a stronger opponent, and survive. 

      In said clip, we see multiple times that Frieza's energy is erased when touching Toppo's Hakai Armor, while his body is not when being hit with both Toppo's physical attacks being coated in Hakai armor and his Hakai blasts that are proven to be stronger than him.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:
      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      Something along the lines of “Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents” under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.

      Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

      We actually saw Frieza being overwhelmed and consumed into an Hakai by a stronger opponent, and survive. 

      In said clip, we see multiple times that Frieza's energy is erased when touching Toppo's Hakai Armor, while his body is not when being hit with both Toppo's physical attacks being coated in Hakai armor and his Hakai blasts that are proven to be stronger than him.

      Said Hakai was made by Toppo on purpose to not overwhelm Freezer's resistance, your argument is shit.

      Even fucking Satan and Videl can control their attacks to that level, exemple : the only time Videl lost control and straight up snapped Spopovich's neck.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      It's not a weakness of the hax, it's a capacity of the characters, otherwise all hax that were ever resisted are just inferior than those that weren't, Avada Kadavra would be superior to Xavier's mind power.

      It would be a weakness of the attack. Having your attack not work on all stronger foes is a weakness. That's a general rule of the ability.

      Having your attack not work on a foe with a resistance is not a weakness because that person has said resistance. This is an exception to the ability.

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    • Hax in DBZ is always negated by physical strength: Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard, ShadowWarrior1999, Goodyfresh, Paul Frank

      Hax in DBZ is not always negated by physical strength: TheC2, Akreious, Kepekley23, Antoniofer, Matthew Schroeder, FateAlbane

      Hakai is negated by physical strength: Everyone for always negated, Goddess of Winter, Kaltias

      If there's anyone I misplaced or missed let me know and I'll update it. This is just to find out who's on each side.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      It's not a weakness of the hax, it's a capacity of the characters, otherwise all hax that were ever resisted are just inferior than those that weren't, Avada Kadavra would be superior to Xavier's mind power.

      It would be a weakness of the attack. Having your attack not work on all stronger foes is a weakness. That's a general rule of the ability.

      Having your attack not work on a foe with a resistance is not a weakness because that person has said resistance. This is an exception to the ability.

      No, it would be a capacity of the character, just like in an RPG where a  character has a strong enough magical defense for a magical attack to do 0 damage, the thing come from the characters, not the attack and if we followed your logic, hax that were only ever used on normal humans and never resisted would be miles above hax that worked on multiversal beings but were resisted.

      and here the resistance is being provided by their power source that also provide all their other stats, including durability and AP, it's just that since it's the power source everyone uses, everyone who is stronger than a certain level will resist it, that's pretty basic stuff.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      Said Hakai was made by Toppo on purpose to not overwhelm Freezer's resistance, your argument is shit.

      Even fucking Satan and Videl can control their attacks to that level, exemple : the only time Videl lost control and straight up snapped Spopovich's neck.

      Frieza WAS overwhelmed, open your eyes, it's what was shown to us.

      And explain how holding back a punch and holding back certain properties of an attack are the same thing, especially since it was stated that Toppo can't control Hakai. 

      That's like comparing someone holding back a punch to the ability to unleash the destructive force of a nuclear bomb without unleashing the radiation that goes along with after being stated to be impossible.

      That is the false equivalency to end all false equivalencies. Those are not the same things in the slightest.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      Said Hakai was made by Toppo on purpose to not overwhelm Freezer's resistance, your argument is shit.

      Even fucking Satan and Videl can control their attacks to that level, exemple : the only time Videl lost control and straight up snapped Spopovich's neck.

      Frieza WAS overwhelmed, open your eyes, it's what was shown to us.

      And explain how holding back a punch and holding back certain properties of an attack are the same thing, especially since it was stated that Toppo can't control Hakai. 

      That's like comparing someone holding back a punch to the ability to unleash the destructive force of a nuclear bomb without unleashing the radiation that goes along with after being stated to be impossible.

      That is the false equivalency to end all false equivalencies. Those are not the same things in the slightest.

      He was hurt but his resistance wasn't overwhelmed, that's the different between a knock out punch and punching through your goddamn torso, that's basic logic.

      They are the same thing because they are all related to martial art, just like the power systeme of DB at large and control is a very important part of it, that's like asking how do they control the AOE or the heat generated by their attacks, that's just part of how their powers works, control was always a very strong part of how power works in DB

      Except that it's fiction and it was never stated to be impossible for dragon ball character to do that.

      And it's the biggest desperate buzzword throwing to invalidate an argument i'v ever seen, you might as well just go 'i don't want that point to count' at this point because it will have the same results.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      Hax in DBZ is always negated by physical strength: Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard, ShadowWarrior1999, Goodyfresh, Paul Frank

      No I never once stated DB AP always negates hax. I said the opposite multiple times though.

      "Now said Dragon Ball characters shouldn't be able to resist all of these types of haxes from all verses, but within their own verse they should be able to resist these particular attacks."

      "Just because Mafuba can work on stronger opponents doesn't mean that all DB hax works on stronger opponents."

      "Exactly. Here's the thing. I'm not claiming Broly can resist all existence erasure from any character who's weaker than him. I'm not saying that DB characters use AP to negate hax in every circumstance."

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    • Yeah, that's what that says. Hax in DBZ.

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    • I'm not saying that hax is negated by physical strenghts either BTW, i'm saying they use the same thing to get their physical strenght as they use to resist hax, just like they use the same power to defend themself that they use to attack so 'who is stronger than who' would also be a valid metrics to know 'who resist better than who'.

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    • @Ryu

      Wait, so do you agree that there is some hax in DBZ that ignores strength?


      @Dragomer

      Ki?

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    • @DragonEmperor23 I never said hax in DB is always negated by physical strength. Hakai though is. Case-by-case basis.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      @Ryu

      Wait, so do you agree that there is some hax in DBZ that ignores strength?


      @Dragomer

      Ki?

      Yup, that's pretty from where EVERYTHING come from in dragon ball, the only other form of energy known are 'magic' who isn't explored at all and 'destruction energy'  that isn't explored at all either.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      @Ryu

      Wait, so do you agree that there is some hax in DBZ that ignores strength?

      Of course some hax works on somewhat more powerful characters. I still don't think that should be NLF'd to saying it can defeat all characters regardless of how unfathomably greater the gap might be.

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    • Couldn't you get a special ending in one of the dragon Ball games by using Devilman to beat Frieda and Cell via abuse of his special ability? Iirc there was or the fighting games where Devilman sucked physically but had that one attack that did a ridiculous amount of damage on any characters the game classed as evil.

      Far reaching durability negation does seem to be a thing, in certain cases.

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    • Wokistan wrote:
      Couldn't you get a special ending in one of the dragon Ball games by using Devilman to beat Frieda and Cell via abuse of his special ability? Iirc there was or the fighting games where Devilman sucked physically but had that one attack that did a ridiculous amount of damage on any characters the game classed as evil.

      Far reaching durability negation does seem to be a thing, in certain cases.

      It was an event attack, if you use that attack in gameplay before the game wanted to launch the pseudo cutscene, it did jackshit.

      and you only did that to Freezer, it was a 1 fight 'what if' scenario but it should be noted that this Devilman had some 4th wall awareness and timeline awareness since he mention he messed up the events and shouldn't have done that before dismissing it, saying it's not that much of a probleme, Cell doesn't appear BTW, maybe there was King Cold too thought.

      That game had lots of scenario like that, there was even one where you beat Radditz as Piccolo.

      Also yeah, some hax can allow characters to punch way out of their weights class, like time hax apparently need God level to be resisted but it would need feat for it to be accepted like the Mafuba since they would be the exception in dragon balls.

      Otherwise we'd end up with nonsense like Toppo soloing DBS.

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    • Hax in DBZ is always negated by physical strength: Goodyfresh, Paul Frank

      Hax in DBZ is not always negated by physical strength: TheC2, Akreious, Kepekley23, Antoniofer, Matthew Schroeder, FateAlbane, ShadowWarrior1999, Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard, Wokistan

      Hakai is negated by physical strength: Everyone for always negated, Goddess of Winter, Kaltias, ShadowWarrior1999, Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard

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    • Wokistan wrote:
      Couldn't you get a special ending in one of the dragon Ball games by using Devilman to beat Frieda and Cell via abuse of his special ability? Iirc there was or the fighting games where Devilman sucked physically but had that one attack that did a ridiculous amount of damage on any characters the game classed as evil.

      Far reaching durability negation does seem to be a thing, in certain cases.

      What game is that? That sounds hilarious.

      Although Freiza would probably survive his heart exploding due to his insane durability, the guy was cut in half for Pete sake.

      And Cell can just regenerate the injury.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      @Dragomer

      Ki?

      Yup, that's pretty from where EVERYTHING come from in dragon ball, the only other form of energy known are 'magic' who isn't explored at all and 'destruction energy'  that isn't explored at all either.

      So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      @Dragomer

      Ki?

      Yup, that's pretty from where EVERYTHING come from in dragon ball, the only other form of energy known are 'magic' who isn't explored at all and 'destruction energy'  that isn't explored at all either.
      So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

      Yes, Ki is what allow them to do anything and it's the only thing they ever use for defense so if someone resisted it and it's not mentionned to be like Goku resisting the devilmite beam on a technicality, then it should scale through strenght since it's also what allow to defend against the hax.

      Thought we can only say for the hax we did see them resist, for all we know, an hax that was never introduced to the show would need level of strenghts only Zeno has to resist or even Pilaf could be strong enought to resist it.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:

      So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

      The argument was not "Is all hax in Dragon Ball negated via AP?"

      The argument is, "Is Hakai negated via higher AP?"

      I disagreed saying it was the character's having a resistance to EE, not that Hakai has a weakness.



      Did you not read all the comments between Ryu and I? 

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    • Warren Valion wrote:
      DragonEmperor23 wrote:

      So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

      The argument was not "Is all hax in Dragon Ball negated via AP?"

      The argument is, "Is Hakai negated via higher AP?"

      I disagreed saying it was the character's having a resistance to EE, not that Hakai has a weakness.



      Did you not read all the comments between Ryu and I? 

      Well, this thread was for both. Everyone seems to agree on not all hax and now it's shifted to whether or not Hakai is. I was just asking Drago what his interpretation/opinion was.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:
      DragonEmperor23 wrote:

      So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

      The argument was not "Is all hax in Dragon Ball negated via AP?"

      The argument is, "Is Hakai negated via higher AP?"

      I disagreed saying it was the character's having a resistance to EE, not that Hakai has a weakness.



      Did you not read all the comments between Ryu and I? 

      Your disagreement would be fine if you weren't disagreeing because you want some nonsense magical resistance for 3 characters and that's it rather than going with what the show clearly say and understand that they are simply doing it by being strong enought and therefor the resistance should scale, like every resistance in DB.

      Did we every see a single type of resistance not scaling in dragon ball ? like ever ?

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      Did we every see a single type of resistance not scaling in dragon ball ? like ever ?

      Vegeta's mind control resistance,

      Vegtio's transmutation resistance

      Vegeta's AZ resistance.



      No resistance has ever been scaled on the profiles actually. 

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    • Warren Valion wrote:
      Dragomer wrote:

      Did we every see a single type of resistance not scaling in dragon ball ? like ever ?

      Vegeta's mind control resistance,

      Vegtio's transmutation resistance

      Vegeta's AZ resistance.



      No resistance has ever been scaled on the profiles actually. 

      Everyone scale it except this site 

      Everyone scale it except this site

      everyone scale it except this site

      and the show treats all of those as scaling, unless Hyssop and Babidi solo DBS too now and Buu would have one shotted Beerus if he remembered his signature move, all of which is clear nonsense that the show in no way support.

      That's because the hax need feats to affect characters, characters don't need to have resistance to resist it, that's what is said on the Hax page as i'v shown multiple time.

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    • So everyone does it and we must follow along? A larger number of people doesn't make something right.

      Or, you know, we just don't assume people that don't show something don't, by our standards, have that ability even if by all means it makes sense they have. Or quite simply, someone like Jiren stares and Toppo is dead before he transforms, someone like Babidi tries his mind magic and Beerus annihilates in a second. Someone like Buu tries to carry out candy shenanigans and Beerus one finger taps him by evading, and this is disregarding the official statement, as brought up by Kep, that pure power wasn't why Vegito could still fight. So the God tiers are still God tiers in the hypothetical scenario of "they do actually not have those resistances".

      Then the page needs to be updated and changed. We've changed our concept manipulation pages and High 1-A got removed and yadda yadda. If it's wrong, we change it. Not going into NFL because an ability can't be assumed to work on people that are much stronger than what it's shown affecting is not the same, it will never be the same, as the character resisting something because they are stronger, unless directly stated in verse.

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    • “Everyone scales it except this site”

      Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure OBD, SA, SB, and CV also don’t scale it.

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    • Even if multiple sites did scale it, are we suddenly under obligation to do it like everyone else? It's one thing for our community to come together, discuss, debate and come to a conclusion. It's another thing for us to just go along with a particular way of thinking just because that's what others are doing. 

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    • It should be case by case imo. Characters from DB have shown to resist some hax just by the virtue of their power (powering up) and other hax do work on stronger opponents. Like Matt said, there isn't 100% of one thing or the other.

      I also agree with Ryu. Monster Carrot can totally hax GP.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      “Everyone scales it except this site”

      Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure OBD, SA, SB, and CV also don’t scale it.

      I don't know the official policy of those sites but i definitely participated in threads where it was scaled on all those sites and no one was bringing up how it's against the site's rule.

      This site is the only site i'v seen where Toppo is considered able to solo DBS.

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    • TheC2 wrote:
      Even if multiple sites did scale it, are we suddenly under obligation to do it like everyone else? It's one thing for our community to come together, discuss, debate and come to a conclusion. It's another thing for us to just go along with a particular way of thinking just because that's what others are doing. 

      If your conclusion is a conclusion no one else has reached and it also has the consequence of leading you to believe Toppo solo DBS except for 3 characters who have inherant unexplained resistance, meaning they could have no sold Hakai as new born, it has more problems than 'we don't want to just follow what other say' and no, it's not an argument by ridicule, that's litteraly an argument on the Toppo vs DBS Broly thread.

      Also this very site has the hax page saying it's the HAX who need feats to affect beings of a certain strenghts.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      “Everyone scales it except this site”

      Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure OBD, SA, SB, and CV also don’t scale it.

      OBD does scale the hakai resistance, just saying. What the OBD does is besides the point and doesn't relate to my previous comment so please don't @ me ovo

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      So everyone does it and we must follow along? A larger number of people doesn't make something right.

      Or, you know, we just don't assume people that don't show something don't, by our standards, have that ability even if by all means it makes sense they have. Or quite simply, someone like Jiren stares and Toppo is dead before he transforms, someone like Babidi tries his mind magic and Beerus annihilates in a second. Someone like Buu tries to carry out candy shenanigans and Beerus one finger taps him by evading, and this is disregarding the official statement, as brought up by Kep, that pure power wasn't why Vegito could still fight. So the God tiers are still God tiers in the hypothetical scenario of "they do actually not have those resistances".

      Then the page needs to be updated and changed. We've changed our concept manipulation pages and High 1-A got removed and yadda yadda. If it's wrong, we change it. Not going into NFL because an ability can't be assumed to work on people that are much stronger than what it's shown affecting is not the same, it will never be the same, as the character resisting something because they are stronger, unless directly stated in verse.

      That's like being a flat earther and trying to justify not believing in the round earth because 'we ain't sheeps !'

      No they don't, Beerus evaded jackshit in characters against any of the Z fighter, your headcanon is going against what the show clearly portrayed as the Z fighter having NO chance against Beerus, including anything Buu can do.

      So no one is making a big deal about Toppo having an attack that can kill the whole DB multiverse including Zeno but Jiren just having raw power above a GoD is constantly freaked on about ? and if Toppo started in his GOD form, he does solo the whole DB multiverse then ? why would no one bring up no one could stop Toppo except Vegeta, Freezer and Goku once he actualy transformed ? maybe because it doesn't make sense ?

      Then change it and then comeback, in the meantime it's still what the site has officialy to say about hax.

      Yeah because we don't already know how DB characters resist hax, it's not as if we had multiple instance and even Freezer talking about his power while resisting EE....oh wait.

      what you are saying is both a NFL and nonsense that isn't supported in anyway by the show, insinuating that Toppo could one hit kill Zeno and no one gives a fuck is just nonsense to the hightest degree.

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    • At this point, I’d rather just scale resistances. I know that it’s case-by-case of course. But it’s better than needlessly complicating another franchise to fit our, a fansite’s, narrative.

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    • Yes, because Buu is the most tactical of fighters. How many times, do remind me, Fat Buu makes candy out of people to beat them? Like honestly, how much is it a precedent of his when he was still evil and not even more mellow like now? And what way does Beerus not resisting that stop him from being so far above Buu he could casually slap him aside before he even tried? Headcanon, the best word to disprove opposition.

      Nobody said there can't be other people with resistance, as that would make sense, but you would still be assuming out of jack nothing and giving abilities off like free candy because of an issue the writers could have easily not thought about, as easy as they didn't think about Toppo falling down the floor from Hakai energy.

      Oh yes indeed, its absolute nonsense to think Toppo has an answer to whatever other odd techniques the angels have up their sleeve or Zeno's "get haxed" Ray of annihilation, or that he could never get tired enough to drop his GoD power. Meaning every other option besides "they resist it or GG" which is pretty sensible ovo.

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      Yes, because Buu is the most tactical of fighters. How many times, do remind me, Fat Buu makes candy out of people to beat them? Like honestly, how much is it a precedent of his when he was still evil and not even more mellow like now? And what way does Beerus not resisting that stop him from being so far above Buu he could casually slap him aside before he even tried? Headcanon, the best word to disprove opposition.

      Nobody said there can't be other people with resistance, as that would make sense, but you would still be assuming out of jack nothing and giving abilities off like free candy because of an issue the writers could have easily not thought about, as easy as they didn't think about Toppo falling down the floor from Hakai energy.

      Oh yes indeed, its absolute nonsense to think Toppo has an answer to whatever other odd techniques the angels have up their sleeve or Zeno's "get haxed" Ray of annihilation, or that he could never get tired enough to drop his GoD power. Meaning every other option besides "they resist it or GG" which is pretty sensible ovo.

      You're talking about the guy who managed to outsmart and asborb Gohan and basicaly always spam his candy beam at every opportunity, that was even one of his opening moves against Evil Buu.

      If he can't resist it, he can't slap it away cause if it touches him, he get turned into candy and what they wanted to portray is that it would work but Beerus can counter it, they would have done like with Evil Buu but it's clearly not what they wanted to show, what they wanted to show is that NOTHING they can do would do anything to Beerus, no matter what.

      Yeah, cause magical unmentionned and inherent resistance that allow Baby Vegeta to resist EE and absolute 0 is so canon, so canon in fact that it's never even implied at any point in the franchise.

      No, we would be assuming jackshit, we'd simply be abserving the show and using our brains, your magical baby Vegeta no selling EE and absolute 0 is the assumption here and contradict the show.

      except they did think about that because Toppo obviously can control what he erase and what he doesn't, you're just saying 'my headcanon is true but the writers are too dumb to know !', which is nonsense.

      He doesn't need an answer to jackshit, they can't touch him since everything they have doesn't resist EE and he can one shot them since they can't resist EE, simple as that, that's the nonsense you're going for, without forgetting once again how no one cares at any point about his EE, you know ? the EE that would one shot Jiren, who has no such 'odd powers' and only has raw strenght ?

      Yeah, every nonsensical option beyond 'what the show is clearly portraying and showing' is sensible, that's not a bulshit thing to say, especialy when it's an ability absolutly no one gave a fuck about while everyone was freaking out about Ultra Instinct, a technique that is litteraly nothing compared to a one hit kill attack against everything except 3 random characters for no reason at all.

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    • Energy of destruction could likely be resisted via AP if the character who would be hakai'd can use that AP in the form of energy similar enough in nature to ki in DB. Otherwise, the stronger character would need an established EE resistance.

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    • Hakai and Energy of Destruction are the same exact thing.

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    • I'm well aware of that, ShadowWarrior.

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    • I honestly don't care about this much at all, but with the obvious proof Kep has given... honestly, either get a CRT made or drop the issue, because things are getting confused. Saying an ability can't be assumed to work beyond what's been shown to do is not and will never be, the same as assuming anyone that is stronger than the character has a way to counter the ability. If they do, that's a weakness of the ability and not an universal thing unless it's actually established as one. There's a longer list, a bigger precedent, for hax to work on people stronger.

      The structure of the story does not excuse this. It's not our problem if the writers lost the ability to have insight and didn't think of explaining why anyone with Hakai isn't ruling the world, or if it's because they have all resistance that has never been ever mentioned, it's not implied or shown so no, everyone and their mother above Toppo isn't getting EE resistance or any equivalent out of nothing. Because what you are proposing means just that, and its as unfounded as it is just odd.

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
      I honestly don't care about this much at all, but with the obvious proof Kep has given... honestly, either get a CRT made or drop the issue, because things are getting confused. Saying an ability can't be assumed to work beyond what's been shown to do is not and will never be, the same as assuming anyone that is stronger than the character has a way to counter the ability. If they do, that's a weakness of the ability and not an universal thing unless it's actually established as one. There's a longer list, a bigger precedent, for hax to work on people stronger.

      The structure of the story does not excuse this. It's not our problem if the writers lost the ability to have insight and didn't think of explaining why anyone with Hakai isn't ruling the world, or if it's because they have all resistance that has never been ever mentioned, it's not implied or shown so no, everyone and their mother above Toppo isn't getting EE resistance or any equivalent out of nothing. Because what you are proposing means just that, and its as unfounded as it is just odd.

      'I don't care much but i 100% side with that side and i'll whine at the opposite side' then you do care and you should stop feigning neutrality and indifference, that's just a dumb argumentative ploy.

      'muh CRT !!! Muh CRT !!!' go read the hax page, realise it go against your 'Toppo solo DBS nonsense' and make your own CRT if you really think you are right, screaming 'muh CRT' when what is written on the hax page tell you that your argument is nonsensical is just sad

      Also if the ability need to be proven to work against a certain level, why wouldn't it need to be proven to work against an even stronger level ?

      Except that we do know all those stronger characters have a way to counter the ability, it's called ki and it's the same power that was used by the weaker character to resist the ability in the first place and they litteraly just have more of it.

      No, it's an ability of the characters, not a weakness of the hax, that's like a RPG with magic defense, the hight magic defense come from the characters, nothing else.

      And declaring that any Hax that get resisted is because a weakness of the hax itself is just an open door to NFL nonsense; it would make hax that are only ever used against humans but never resisted better than hax used to kill multiversal beings but was resisted once.

      No, there is super small list you can count on a single hand with fingers to spare and half of them aren't valid, try again.

      The structure of the story is telling you your head canon is wrong, deal with it, the writers didn't lose any insight, they just didn't spoonfeed you the obvious, you can't impose your headcanon in the story and say the author is in the wrong for debunking it.

      Also they did give an explaination : Power, that's litteraly what the characters screamed about everything single time they no sold an ability and EE is the same.

      except they do, you just don't want to realise it and will just go the dumbest lenghts to keep your headcanon, Toppo isn't soloing DBS and nothing he can do can scratch anyone stronger than Vegeta SSBE, everyone stronger than Base TOP Goku has EE resistance, that's just the obvious conclusion the show want you to make

      The resistance was litteraly shown on screen, you dum-dum and the scailing is just basic logic, cause what did they use to resist ? ki, what does everyone stronger than them has over them ? a stronger ki so the resistance fucking scale.

      Yeah, cause magical, unmentioned and inherent resistance isn't the odd thing here, saying that Toppo solo DBS isn't the odd thing here, Baby Vegeta no selling EE and absolute 0 isn't the odd unfounded argument here, god, how can you be so delusional ?

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Vegito doesn't count due to the Daizenshuu saying that's a special ability only he has, which we accept.

      Wait, when was this?

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    • DeathstroketheHedgehog wrote:
      Kepekley23 wrote:

      Vegito doesn't count due to the Daizenshuu saying that's a special ability only he has, which we accept.

      Wait, when was this?


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    • We don't follow the Daizenshuu though, so it doesn't matter.

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    • Yes we do.

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    • Since when?

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    • Since forever?

      We only avoid using it if it directly contradicts the show or if it contradicts itself on the subject.

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    • Wokistan wrote:
      It's a thing that makes sense for him to resist within the context of the story, but he hasn't demonstrated.

      Basically its the whole "narrative/author intent vs shown feats" argument central to vs debating.

      I feel like the debate hasn't moved much from this... or that it's going to.

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    • This debate probably won't go anywhere 

      Most of the dragonball community and people who are familiar with the series even outside of this site agree that ki and kk control can cancel out most hax in the series

      This sites standards however means that toppo buu and monster carrot solo dbs

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    • You could at least not word that like Massive AP and Speed difference doesn't change the fact that all those people get splattered even if there was no resistance.

      Again, holding an ability to it's best showing because NFL and giving away abilities like free candy because otherwise the stoy makes no sense is not the same thing, and what's being argued is the second one.

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    • A FANDOM user
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