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  • Dargoo Faust
    Dargoo Faust closed this thread because:
    Finished.
    21:17, January 19, 2019
    Pretty badass rendition of siegfried and fafnir from the new 348601861447613f0f2fc29b67182e31

    Twelfth round of the 7-A brackets begins! The winner of the last round was Cobra.


    Current Standings (A "-1" indicates a fighter was disqualified for whatever reasons)

    The contenders for this round are Ren Tao, submitted by FateAlbane, and Saber Alter, submitted by ShiroyashaGinSan.

    O.S. Super Bushin Ren is used. Excalibur Morgan is restricted. Speed is equalized. Battle takes place on the bridge in Fuyuki City.

    Saber Alter -

    Ren Tao - 7 (Monarch, Fate, Phoenix, Cal, Jack, Wok, Weekly)

    Incon -

    FSN Heavens Feel Film-Saber Alter (1)
    Ren Tao
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    • It's funny because Ren indeed has a fight in a bridge at some point in the Shaman Fight tournament right before his resurrection in this key.

      Guess it's my turn, then. I should probably wait to see how deep Salter goes into those AP depths, but just in case, Yoh Asakura and Marco are the baselinish ones at this point. Horo Horo and Chocolove, albeit weaker were somewhat comparable. Their Spiritual Power (Horo Horo and Choco's) ammounted to 2000.

      The Ren used here is post his Resurrection which added at least 50000 spiritual power to his 5721ish at the time so he should be sensibly above baseline (demonstrated by the fact that it took him a single casual attack to oneshot Marco).
      5721
      50 000Inc
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    • Ok so I'm seeing B instincts and Fumon Tonkou cancelling each other out

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    • Saber via better abilities and resistances

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    • @Zell

      What abilities in particular helps her edge out here?

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    • That's not a great reason.

      Is what Ren uses even magic she can resist? It's more using ghost and soul power than prana or anything.

      And honestly, he's materialising souls, that's more True Magic shit by nasu standards, not the sort of thing that Magic Resistance helps against from what I've heard.

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    • @Zell Please wait until I actually explain the characters feats and abilities.

      Saying better abilities and resistances doesn't count for much until then.

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    • Oh shit bois, This gonna be a spicy one.

      Anyway, I'll look over them again and draw conclusions

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    • Also

      > Faust doesn't have a profile

      What is this heresy that the Magical Morphine Man doesn't get a profile?

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    • She can replenish mana via soul manipulation, she has precog, regeneration, immunity to modern weapons, teleportation, stat amplification, and magic resistance (I will say this is questionable, cause it all comes down to the magic she tanked, which some magic has soul manipulation just not much, plus all soul manipulators have at least some resistance to soul manipulation though more of an active battle as they're more fighting the soul powers of the person messing with their soul)

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    • Now to cover on the matter of experience and Soul related stuff, a Ren that was much weaker at this point in the story witnessed the story of the GS (5.6 Billion years of it) and its souls and was unfazed by it (while every other character at the time fainted from mere exposition to it and others still were said to have died from as much as glancing at the GS). Ren instead went straight to it and kept looking at it, unfazed.

      Soul1
      Soul2

      Also going for him in regards to experience is two things: The first is that Bason had over 500+ years of experience doing literally nothing but fighting against every kind of opponent prior to and during the course of the series, and Ren can fully tap into that experience in battle. Ren himself demonstrated to be no slouch in this department since he defeated his father who was channeling the experience of 2000+ years of every single soul in his lineage tied together. So while at first glance it may sound like Salter would sorely outclass him in battle experience and skill, he's actually an extremely good fighter in this regard as well.

      Soul 3
      Soul4
      BasExp
      BasExp2
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    • I'm breaking Ren down little by little. I'll get to abilities in a jiffy. For the moment, stamina is up next.

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    • Ok, so what is Ren's AP in joules or megatons?

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    • Didn't Ren lose against his father the first time, and only one with help or am I remembering wrong.

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    • ZellTemplar55 wrote:
      She can replenish mana via soul manipulation, she has precog, regeneration, immunity to modern weapons, teleportation, stat amplification, and magic resistance (I will say this is questionable, cause it all comes down to the magic she tanked, which some magic has soul manipulation just not much, plus all soul manipulators have at least some resistance to soul manipulation though more of an active battle as they're more fighting the soul powers of the person messing with their soul)

      Soul manipulation needs her to eat his soul, which isn't combat applicable and by which point he's already dead.

      He has similar precog.

      Destroying her brain is enough to stop the regeneration

      None of his weapons are modern or non-mysterious so she's immune to nothing of his.

      IIRC she doesn't use teleportation in a fight.

      Stat amplification ok.

      Magic resistance isn't useful for reasons I explained. And manipulating souls doesn't grant resistance to soul manipulation.

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    • She used the teleportation against Berserker iirc

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    • In regards to Stamina: Ren's father who is much weaker than Ren in the key used in this match kept his oversoul going for years.

      Ren himself, again in a weaker key fought an army of reanimated warriors, lost to his father, got imprisoned and tortured for 10 days straight then when he was released by Yoh the first thing that he went to do was get his rematch with that very same father.

      So "very high" is actually an understatement of his durability. Also Oversoul by itself doesn't waste stamina fast, you actually have to keep busting it. Otherwise the Spiritual energy (unless it's shooting type like Horo Horo) maintains itself which means Ren can keep this fight going without tiring anytime soon as well. Since his weaker keys it was already stated that Ren's OS was the kind that you need to destroy for his Spiritual Energy to actually be wasted otherwise it keeps going. So coupling that with his other Stamina feats, this isn't being decided by him tiring out from wasting his power either.

      OversoulDoesNotWaste
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    • Ironically enough, Oversouls being spiritual in nature don't cast Shadows so Saber can't teleport through his attacks.

      Also while people have been shown to tank OS attacks just fine, Oversouls have selective intangibility against defenses if they are not soul based in nature. Yoh once tried to block Eliza's blade which was weaker than Pailong that he had defeated but the OS phased through his defense and cut straight to his body.

      OSBeyondMaterial
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    • Servants having non-physical interaction is implied. They can all harm ghosts and other spiritual beings

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    • Yeah, Servants are fundamentally spiritual beings so I don't think she's going to have any problems with his blade phasing through to hit her.

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    • Yes, Servants should have Non-Physical interaction

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    • Servants should resist soul manip by virtue of being spiritual entities to begin with. Pulling out a servant's sould would equate to just tugging at his/her clothing.

      Also I was told Ren Tao's soul manip isn't that potent and is mostly just for physical attacks, so this doesn't matter much anyways.

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    • In regards to Fumon Tonkou, it might cancel out with her Precog depending on how good it is, I'm not sure. It should be noted that Ren should be technically weaker than Hao's underlings prior to his resurrection but he was having a clear advantage on them by reading the pulses of their energy and anticipating their every blow.

      As for Ren's fighting method in this Key right prior to and post resurrection, there's not much mistery to it: It's reading the moves of others with FT and spamming AOE OS:Togenkyo.
      Togenkyo
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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      Servants should resist soul manip by virtue of being spiritual entities to begin with. Pulling out a servant's sould would equate to just tugging at his/her clothing.

      Also I was told Ren Tao's soul manip isn't that potent and is mostly just for physical attacks, so this doesn't matter much anyways.

      This is true. That would also mean that Dantes Soul Manip is even more fire

      kek

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      Servants should resist soul manip by virtue of being spiritual entities to begin with. Pulling out a servant's sould would equate to just tugging at his/her clothing.

      I've made this argument on Fate v Masada threads and it was strongly contested.

      Something about servants not actually being physical souls and just being spiritual cores stuck in a physical container.

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    • They don't have a "physical container" though.

      They're literally just spirits. It's like arguing a soulhax user can pull the soul out of a ghost.

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    • Can she still stop it if said weapons just keep sprouting from under her and from every angle at once, though?

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      They don't have a "physical container" though.

      They're literally just spirits. It's like arguing a soulhax user can pull the soul out of a ghost.

      Not what I've heard.

      Look at the Enkidu vs Rei match for details.

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    • Also regen is not going to be a problem since last time Ren was faced with a guy who could regen from his blood and teleport he simple resorted to pulverizing whatever he striked with with his Oversoul strikes.

      Pulverize1
      Pulverize2
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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      They don't have a "physical container" though.

      They're literally just spirits. It's like arguing a soulhax user can pull the soul out of a ghost.

      I did more research on it

      Servants are spirits that manifest in a physical body composed of magical energy.

      Their entire body is not their soul.

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    • I'll say this. If servants aren't spirits, then they should technically lack souls since they just have spiritual cores.

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    • FateAlbane wrote: Also regen is not going to be a problem since last time Ren was faced with a guy who could regen from his blood and teleport he simple resorted to pulverizing whatever he striked with with his Oversoul strikes.

      Pulverize1
      Pulverize2

      Yes it's very much gonna be a problem, it's not that simple, plus she has various other abilities to go along with that, if he was a good bit more powerful then maybe it would, but he isn't

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    • Finally, while this Ren doesn't have the True Flight to freely maneuver everywhere like with the OS spirit of Thunder, he can still fly to an extent by using his OS as Bason. So that's another thing for him.

      I think this pretty much covers the most important things for Ren here.

      I do believe Ren can pull a win here by spamming the hell out of Togenkyo since unlike what his profile would have someone believe out of his stamine, he is actually *very* trigger happy with spamming that in this key.

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    • To be honest Servants resisting soul manip in this context of this fight doesn't really matter as Ren Tao's brand of it isnt' the traditional "lol ur soul is mine" hax you see on a lot of OP profiles.

      Best to just continue with the debate. Do we have a vote count?

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    • Your boi Cal doesn't have an opinion yet. Who's got the AP advantage? No one?

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    • ZellTemplar55 wrote: 

      Yes it's very much gonna be a problem, it's not that simple, plus she has various other abilities to go along with that, if he was a good bit more powerful then maybe it would, but he isn't

      Saber's regen isn't even that good. Her weakness section says it takes minutes to work properly if she is badly wounded. Why would Ren even wait for that? Also your reasoning doesn't cover any point or debunk anything, just says she has a bunch of abilities and that they are better without explaining them.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Your boi Cal doesn't have an opinion yet. Who's got the AP advantage? No one?

      I know Saber's AP is scaling from being far higher than 385.11 megatons. I haven't heard what Ren's is

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    • I think the closest thing Ren has are guesstimates via fodderizing 2000 people Furioku and Marco (baselinish) with his 55000ish. Also IIRC Chocolove who shouldn't be that much stronger than him at this point casually created this with his Oversoul.

      Should note that in-verse differences in Furyoku when too big generally means you can't even touch the other person.

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    • So he is a good bit above baseline then?

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      I'll say this. If servants aren't spirits, then they should technically lack souls since they just have spiritual cores.

      I'd think spiritual cores and souls are synonymous here.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      To be honest Servants resisting soul manip in this context of this fight doesn't really matter as Ren Tao's brand of it isnt' the traditional "lol ur soul is mine" hax you see on a lot of OP profiles.

      Yeah.

      It's more along the lines of "Bason's soul is now solid and in the form of a giant spear that I will hit you with"

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    • FateAlbane wrote:

      ZellTemplar55 wrote: 

      Yes it's very much gonna be a problem, it's not that simple, plus she has various other abilities to go along with that, if he was a good bit more powerful then maybe it would, but he isn't

      Saber's regen isn't even that good. Her weakness section says it takes minutes to work properly if she is badly wounded. Why would Ren even wait for that? Also your reasoning doesn't cover any point or debunk anything, just says she has a bunch of abilities and that they are better without explaining them.

      Lol yes I did, the fact is she has regen and Ren doesn't, my statements stand as a fair arguement, Ren has inferior abilities, case closed, Saber has abilities that put her above Ren more than enough to win, provide some AP calcs, if Ren has some really good showings, good for him, he deserves them

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      So he is a good bit above baseline then?

      Pretty much, yeah. Don't have a solid value, just "Stomps Baselines who stomps less baselines who stomps less baselines extremely hard by a margin of 2k ~ 5k to 55k."

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    • Anyways I'll vote Ren High Diffing for the reasons I said above.

      Togenkyo Spam + his other skills and stats seemingly cancelling out with most of her own. He also has more mobility since he can actually use Bason to fly or propel himself up in the air or in different directions mid-air. Plus she will be needing to deal with his attacks coming from every direction + under her all the time.

      If they do cancel each other out in many of the other aspects adressed so far, I guess he ultimately takes it by that window of advantage.

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    • ZellTemplar55 wrote:

      Lol yes I did, the fact is she has regen and Ren doesn't, my statements stand as a fair arguement, Ren has inferior abilities, case closed, Saber has abilities that put her above Ren more than enough to win, provide some AP calcs, if Ren has some really good showings, good for him, he deserves them

      Her regen also takes 10 minutes to heal her from fatal wounds, during which she is lying on the ground incapacitated, and she can still die if her heart or head are destroyed.

      Stabbing her heart is how she is killed canonically.

      It's pretty easy for Ren to get around, all he needs to do is stab one of those dozen weapons he summons into her heart.

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    • FateAlbane wrote:
      Anyways I'll vote Ren High Diffing for the reasons I said above.

      Togenkyo Spam + his other skills and stats seemingly cancelling out with most of her own. He also has more mobility since he can actually use Bason to fly or propel himself up in the air or in different directions mid-air. Plus she will be needing to deal with his attacks coming from every direction + under her all the time.

      She does have her mana burst aura to help defend herself against attacks coming from directions she can't see, just saying. And I'm pretty sure she's decently mobile in mid-air.

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    • Ren has shown the capability to AOE even giant enemies with Togenkyo like Michael or the Golem.
      Togen
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    • Monarch Laciel wrote: 

      She does have her mana burst aura to help defend herself against attacks coming from directions she can't see, just saying. And I'm pretty sure she's decently mobile in mid-air.

      But is that passive/would she open with it, though? Because it's in Ren's character to open with Togenkyo in this key. If she gets surprise hit at the start of the match by the sudden move it might be a bad one for her.

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    • @Monarch

      But they are distinct from Souls tho

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    • FateAlbane wrote:

      But is that passive/would she open with it, though? Because it's in Ren's character to open with Togenkyo in this key. If she gets surprise hit at the start of the match by the sudden move it might be a bad one for her.

      I mean

      It's basically Gilgamesh's strategy, just from below her instead of behind him, and Saber was able to deal with a bit of that IIRC

      Also I think it's passive yeah, in this state her mana burst is just her constantly emitting this big aura of magical energy

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    • @Monarch But Gilgamesh sucks in CQC/direct battle experience compared to her though, doesn't he? Also Saber doesn't have Excalibur to pull here either unlike in her Gil matches which would in turn have made me say she vaporizes long before this ever happened.

      In this case she has to deal with weapons from every direction from the opponent she knows nothing about at first (unlike Gil which in their first meeting in Zero was easily spamming her normal incarnation) + comparable fighter fighting her head on.

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    • Though to be fair, IIRC Saber was tired from the Berserker match prior to meeting Gil in Zero so that's probably why she couldn't avoid him at all there.

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    • Gil is not bad at CQC, it is just usually viewed as beneath him. He will wield is space cutting axe or gram with a good amount of skill

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    • Oh shit Excalibur Morgan is restricted.

      Yeah Ok, I'll vote Ren for Fate's / my reasons above.

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    • Ren - 2 (Monarch, Fate)

      Salter - 

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    • Ren FRA,

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    • Ren - 3 (Monarch, Fate, Phoenix)

      Salter - 

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    • Renny boi fra

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    • Sure why not Ren fra.

      which fight is next by the way I wanna know what I miss while I sleep

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    • Ren - 5 (Monarch, Fate, Phoenix, Cal, Jack)

      Salter - 

      @Jack Next fight is Zeruel vs. the Kanohi Dragon.

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    • Jackythejack wrote:
      Sure why not Ren fra.

      which fight is next by the way I wanna know what I miss while I sleep

      Zeruel vs Kanohi Dragon.

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    • Ah okay. I mainly don’t wanna miss what’ll probably be the only match my character will be in

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    • Ren fra makes sense

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    • Ren - 6 (Monarch, Fate, Phoenix, Cal, Jack, Wok)

      Salter - 

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    • Ren FRA

      Next ovo

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    • I actually might miss my battle anyways with how this is going. Oof.

      I’m excited for the Banjo Kazooie fight too though 

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    • Ren FRA.

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    • That's grace

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    • I just noticed that the three remaining rounds of this first phase involve at least one character I'm familiar with (Zeruel, Mukuro, Nonon and Rugal).

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    • Only one I am familiar with off the top of my head is Mukuro. I am also familiar with Banjo/Kazooie but not in the vs sense

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    • NEXT ROUND IS UP, CLICK HERE!
      Combatants are Zeruel and the Kanohi Dragon
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    • I really need to re read Shaman King, that one of the first manga i've read

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    • Ren fra, shaman king was lit.

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