Hi, all. So we have several profiles for members of the Dark Knights of the Dark Multiverse from DC Comics (The Batman Who Laughs, The Drowned, & The Merciless). As such we still don't have any for The Devastator, The Murder Machine, The Dawnbreaker or the Red Death. I've decided to do something for at least one of those.
The profile is published but it's creation has lead to some other questions which pertain to making profiles for the rest of the Dark Knights not yet created and the prexisting ones. This had lead to more questions about the Post-Flashpoint version of the Justice League, whom the Dark Knights scale to.
I haven't read enough of Rebirth and was mostly waiting for Doomsday Clock, but yes, since this happens after Superman merges with his New 52 self and restores all 5-A characters to 4-B (also supported by Rebirth Orion blowing up a solar system), Devastator would undeniably be 4-B.
I should also note that New 52's 5-A characters should actually be 5-A+, given how the calcs for their reasoning almost reach Dwarf Star level (They top out at 14.72 ninatons, BTW, a mere 2 ninatons away from High 5-A)/
Thank you for taking some to look what I have so far over. I've sent out some messages and will patiently await any responses.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll explain why I rated the Devastator the Tier that I did. See, with the whole Post-Flashpoint Superman merging with Post-Crisis Superman I was kind of unsure which version to use to justify the Devastator's Tier.
When I read over the comic in which they merge and it was Post-Flashpoint who took in Post-Crisis' essence, memories, etc. So I figured I'd use him, just to stay a little on the safe side.
This also brings something else up, an issue I realized when writing the profile for the Devastator: I only gave him the abilities he demonstrated of Doomsday. In the Devastator's origin, he says he infected himself with the Doomsday Virus, he said he'd engineered it. So, I took that as evidence that he may not be exactly like Doomsday and may not have all the capabilities. It also doesn't help that we don't have a profile for Post-Flashpoint Doomsday
However, I also learned that seemingly Doomsday of Post-Flashpoint, merged with his Post-Crisis self. I'll have to look into that.
But to bring things to a head, should I grant the Devastator all of Post-Crisis' abilities? It's honestly easy enough to justify. Also, if so, should we include Post-Flashpoint's version of them as well?
I think that we do not have enough information about him to say for certain. Perhaps you could put "likely" in front of the Post-Crisis Doomsday's most characteristic abilities, i.e. reactive evolution, self-sustenance, regeneration, and such.
Antvasima wrote: I think that we do not have enough information about him to say for certain. Perhaps you could put "likely" in front of the Post-Crisis Doomsday's most characteristic abilities, i.e. reactive evolution, self-sustenance, regeneration, and such.
This is what I was feeling as well. While logic dictates that he should have them, he never really demonstrated them or got the oppurtunity to do so. The fact that the strain of the Doomsday Virus he uses was engineered is another basis for possible differences.
So, for now, I'll add the 'Likely' and Doomsday's iconic abilities.
WeeklyBattles wrote: Is someone going to make Red Death too?
Eventually, I would say so. I've been thinking about Murder Machine, Red Death and Dawnbreaker and who they would scale to, their abilities, etc. Outside of a few questions for each, the hardest thing is really just gathering up information and providing links to evidence for them.
Honestly, if I had to rank them:
Red Death would be the easiest profile to work on next. Mainly due to the fact that he primarily scales to Flash who is an unknown in most of his stats. Honestly, the biggest difference between the two would be Red Death's Age Manipulation/Withering Effect and the fact the he has his world's Barry in his head as a weakness. Really, anyone could make the profile easily in my opinion with a little research.
Murder Machine is next. His most consistent showings are against Cyborg and his abilities are very straight forward.
Finally Dawnbreaker. I just don't what he scales to really. We don't have a profile for Hal Jordan/Green Lantern Post-Flashpoint.
Well, I think I'm going to publish the profile now. I think that it's been put together well all things considered: makes senses, no contradictions or anything. As such, I'll put it out there. If there are any problems further CRTs can be done to correct it but I really don't see that being a major issue at this point.
Antvasima wrote: You can probably scale the Dark Knights from their post-Crisis counterparts.
Wouldn't that cause a bit of confusion?
I mean, the Dark Knights fought the Post-Flashpoint versions of the Justice League. With Superman, it's easy scale Devastator to him since Post-Flashpoint and Post-Crisis Superman merged together. With the other members of the League members, are they in a similiar situation to Superman? Because right now, they are the current versions and are completely seperate from the Post-Crisis counterparts with their own feats, IIRC.
But you also said that Post-Flashpoint versions are on par with the Post-Crisis. Shouldn't the Flashpoints version be scaled up to their Post-Crisis version then, to avoid any mess or barrage of questions that will occur? It would just make the process of creating this profiles more straight forward and done deal in the long run.
The Drowned & Aquaman- If we scale them to Aquaman (Post-Crisis) they would go from 5-A to Unknown. So really, would we want to do that??? Or would we leave that alone since Flashpoint Aquaman actually has feats to put him at 5-A?
The Red Death & Flash: If we scale them to Flash (Barry Allen) (Post-Crisis) they'd be 4-B. However that's based on the Infinite Mass Punch, which has not been done yet in the Post-Flashpoint continuity. So, bit of a red flag there...
The Murder Machine: 4-B I mean he's killed his universe's entire Justice League which included Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Flash, who, if we're scaling them to Post-Crisis are all 4-B.
Ultimately, it seems to me that the Post-Flashpoint Justice League need to be updated first before I proceed with making anymore of the Dark Knights' profiles. Because, otherwise, it's just going to cause confusion down the line with people asking 'If the Dark Knights scale to Post-Crisis, why doesn't Post-Flashpoint (insert character here)?'
New 52 Batman has repeatedly been shown to be vastly stronger, and the school explosion calc proves it. The final results were 0.2 tons away from High 8-C, and it badly damaged Batman's suit. He also has no problems fighting against those who can damage it. The calc was accepted, but it has still not yet been applied. No point in him scaling to Post-Crisis Bats, who has some decent Tier 8 feats himself (Hellbeast is working on it ATM).
Bumping up the Flashpoint League to Post-Crisis levels, we can just say that they're comparable to Post-Crisis.
Going to draft up some reasonings/justifiaction:
Wonder Woman: 4-B (Should be comparable to her Post-Crisis incarnation), Ignores Durability with her sword. This is very straight forward and clean.
Flash: 4-B(Despite not performing the Infinite Mass Punch yet, he should be capable of it as he is comparable to his Post-Crisis self.) Luckily, this is also pretty straight forward.
Aquaman: 4-B (Has fought against Wonder Woman, Superman and Martian Manhunter). Should we leave out his fighting of Flashpoint Superman and Martian Manhunter? Him fighting with WW alone leaves him at 4-B or should we keep them for extra justification?
Batman: 8-C+ due to calc.
Cyborg: 4-B (Held his own against Aquaman and Superman)
Superman: 4-B? He merged with his Post-Crisis self.
If all of those check out and get update, it makes scaling the Dark Knights much easier.
KLOL506 wrote: Also, I think it would be wise to note which comic book issues feats like these happen (Makes research much easier).
I certainly agree that such things make it easier, but it would take a bit of time to find out which comics the feats originate from. I was simply working with what's already been put onto their pages and running with the notion of 'Comparable to their Post-Crisis selves'.
Simply justifying Wonder Woman as 4-B can justify Aquaman's and Cyborg's ratings. That's 3 members down right there.
Flash is as easy as Wonder Woman if we simply say he's comparable to his Post-Crisis self.
Batman has his own calc and feats to stand on.
Superman may not need to be changed. So there's that.
Aaaannndddd Green Lantern's got no Post-Flashpoint profile soooo...
No, what I meant was, generally when calcs are made, it makes it easier to find the feat if the issue or reference to the source material is found. For example, I still haven't found the issue of Spidey's Low 7-C feat.
The powerscaling thing really doesn't need context, IMHO, since it's ridiculously consistent at this point.
I think that it would be easiest to get rid of some of the outdated post-Flashpoint profiles (such as Superman and Wonder Woman), and rewrite others (such as Batman) to replace them with "Post-Rebirth" profiles instead.
Antvasima wrote: I think that it would be easiest to get rid of some of the outdated post-Flashpoint profiles (such as Superman and Wonder Woman), and rewrite others (such as Batman) to replace them with "Post-Rebirth" profiles instead.
Zensum wrote: I heavily disagree with the scaling especially with the Post-Crisis incarnations being directly comparable to their Flash/Post-Flash/Rebirth counterparts other than Superman but have no time to argue a long post.
We should keep Post-Crisis seperate. They are different characters with, what, decades worth of history, feats and potrayals?
As for Post-Flashpoint and Rebirth we could just add onto the Post-Flashpoint profiles and rename them "Prime-Earth" or "New-52"? The profiles would have two keys:
Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth
It would make sense, especially since characters like Flashpoint Superman fused with his Post-Crisis self. It would allows to reflect how the characters where right after Flashpoint happened and them update them with the Rebirth material.
That way, we can add the new material feats without just getting rid of everything that came before. It would also lighten the workload and we wouldn't have to make some profiles from the ground up.
Antvasima wrote: Darkseid probably need a "Rebirth" key as well, btw.
Honestly, we could probably just change his Post-Flashpoint Avatar key. If we're actually going to just update the Post-Flashpoint profiles into the hypothetical Prime Earth or New 52 profiles, Darkseid could just have his key updated to reflect that. Any feats he performs could just be chalked up to the fact that his avatars can vary in power. We already do that with his Post-Crisis avatars.
That reminds me, Orion has to also be included in the profiles list.
As for the staff inqut, I got a message from Azzy saying he'll look into the thread eventually. I contacted Matt eariler today and yesterday and I've never gotten a response. I will presume he's busy as I've seen him active on site.
So outside of contacting more staff or highlighting the thread, I don't know what else to do. I wil say this, that the consequences of this thread affect 17 already established profiles and 3 hypothetical/in progress profiles. I don't know if that's enough to warrant a highlight.
A highlight (or rather a link in our official highlights thread, given that the highlights function was removed) seems to be a bad idea for this particular thread, as Marvel and DC are extremely hard to evaluate properly, due to being very inconsistent and dense to get into, and this would attract relatively uninformed people.
It is probably better to just inform all of the members that have shown to be reasonably knowledgeable about them in the past.
Here is my current list:
Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2 (you), and Nether nine.
We particularly need the help of Matthew and Sandman31.
Azzy said he'd come by at somepoint, though he feels like he's not that knowledgable on the matter. Hykuu has said that they'd come back to talk in more detail as well. That was yesterday.
Zensum seems to be busy and doesn't really have time to come participate.
Sandman31 hasn't answered the last two I've messages I've left. Nether nine is in the same boat.
Matthew, he's been active on site but...hasn't answered me at all...lack of interest?
KLOL506 has been dropping in and out of the thread, so I'd assmume that he's just making time where he can.
Finally, Shivansh Garg, I haven't messaged them but that's because when I went to their wall, someone had asked for help with a DC thread and Garg said they weren't knowledgable and recommended speaking to Hykuu.
Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity.
Post-Flashpoint Batman- Gets upgraded to 8-C+ via school explosion calc.
" We're updating the Post-Flashpoint profiles to incoporate the changes, feats, etc. that have happened since DC:Rebirth. "
Ok, that seems logical.
" Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity. "
They themselves have solar system feats of their own, but i guess this scaling also works.
But like, the entire point of rebirth is every continuity being merged into one, pre crisis, post, etc.
(not everyone was effected If i recall correctly)
Newsrama: How would you describe what's happened now to Superman - is he truly a new person, or kind of a mix of what he was before?
Jurgens: In a way, the answer would be, “All of the above. I think of him as a new person. There are adventures in his past we haven’t seen. Yet we selected some of the best possible aspects of his past to include, selecting from both the "New 52" Superman and pre-Flashpoint Superman, to make everything work. And, yes, to make that work right, we discarded some elements as well. Superman’s past was messed with for a period of time. During that time, he was separated in two, living two distinctly different lives as two distinctly different characters. During “Reborn,” those timelines were merged and rebuilt as one. There was essentially one Superman and one Lois. As for how and why his past was altered, that’s a story that will unfold down the road.
Newsrama: Do they remember all of it? Part of it? What are their memories of what just happened?
Jurgens: They do not remember all of it. Superman knows that his reality was fractured for a time. He no longer remembers the details or every aspect of it. For him, it’s somewhat like waking from a bad dream. For a brief second or two, you might remember it but the memory fades. All you know is that something has left you with an unsettled feeling. So shall it be for Superman
Ok time for the hypotheticals that started this whole thing. This is just so once this all goes down and I create the rest of the Dark Multiverse profiles, everything will be clear and I can just create them without too many eyebrows raised:
The Murder Machine: 4-B (Fought, overpowered and killed his universe's entire Justice League. Can harm Cyborg)
The Red Death: 4-B (Fought and overpowered Flash)
The Dawnbreaker: 4-B (Can overpower Green Lantern. Killed the Guardians and multiple Green Lanterns of his universe.)
Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse.
As for the update of the Post-Flashpoint profiles already established, we've thrown around some ideas but I'll try and sum them up, so that anyone who comes into the debate at this point can see what we're trying to do.
1. Rename Post-Flashpoint profiles. New 52 or Prime Earth, are good names for this.
2. Utilize a key for these profiles, so that we don't have to remake them from the ground up. Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth has been proposed.
3. Set up scaling and feat chain for the Rebirth key so everything makes sense. Also forms basis for any future character profiles.
I am still working on the profiles for the Murder Machine, the Red Death and the Dawnbreaker, though I won't release any of them until the whole Post-Flashpoint/Rebirth fixing is done with, for the sake of simplicity.
"Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse. '
I do remember a statement indicating he did it i think, I'll try and get it later
So are the Rebirth versions going to be 4-B? Can someone post a 4-B feat of Rebirth Superman? I know he has the same history as PC but I honestly think Rebirth Superman was portrayed nowhere as near as powerful as the PC supes.So I think maybe a likely 4-B may work if we dont have anything concrete to based 4-B on.
The Justice Buster's microscopic red suns were agreed to be either 5-A or High 4-C
I dont think anyone should scale to the Golem destroying a solar system. Orion fought it yes but he didnt actually tank the energy discharge of the golem that destroyed the solar system. He escaped using his boom tube. The Nth Metal Golems were stomping everyone including Orion, the GLs and even Highfather and they were only able to defeat them by attacking their weak spots.
Yes, but I dont think he's been portrayed as powerful as PC. I know that it was restored which is why I think maybe something like "likely 4-B" is better
Well, I am unable to help out, due to already being very overworked, but feel free to try to organise this among the highly experienced knowledgeable members, as I don't want to have to do a lot of cleanup work afterwards.
Well, if someone can at least unlock Superman (Post-Flashpoint) , I can get the ball rolling so that however long it takes to get all the profiles, Superman, who so many people are scaling to will be done.
Just to make sure I got everything right, thought:
1. Are we keeping the profile name Post-Flashpoint or are we changing it?
2. Superman is getting a Rebirth key which would feature the following
Tier: Likely 4-B
AP: Likely Solar System Level (With most of the history of his Post-Crisis self restored, he should be capable of a similar levels of power)
Speed: Likely Massively FTL+ (Comparable to his Post-Crisis incarnation)
Lifting Strength: Likely Multi-Stellar
Striking Strength: Likely Solar System Level
Durability: Likely Solar System Level
Stamina: Essentially infinite while under a yellow or blue sun
Range: Same as Post-Flashpoint
Standard Equipment: Same as Post-Flashpoint
Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius based on having most, if not all, of his memoris from Post-Crisis.
Weaknesses: Same as Post-Flashpoint
Please, let me know if something seems off, so that I'll have all the details sorted out before making any edits.
But I'll need a few more people validating the school explosion calc of Batman. I mean, the calc has nothing wrong in it and was corrected even, and there have been multiple confirmations that it damaged his suit really badly but only slightly wounded him, and he can trade blows with enemies capable of doing so (Then again you literally never see him without the suit so it makes sense).
I also took the liberty of tweaking his ability section, given that he should likely have most of his resistances, especially the were Mister Mxy tries to erase him from time and space, given that he's wearing his updated costume from Post-Rebirth and the picture for the feat says Super Sons, which is also after Rebirth.
Also, added a tabber with Supes' new costume as of Rebirth.
KLOL506 wrote: Would the link for New 52 Superman not coming back be even necessary anymore?
It isn't and I have removed it.
As for his summary how about this:
Superman, also known as Clark Kent and Kal-El, is a Kryptonian superhero. Though born of the planet Krypton, he was sent away in a spaceship as a baby to save him from his homeplanet's destruction. His spaceship landed on Earth in Smallville, Kansas where he was found and adopted by Jonathan and Martha Kent. Raised to a high moral standard, Superman uses his powers to protect innocents and safeguard his adopted home. He is husband to Lois Lane and the father of Superboy.
This version of Superman is unique, being a combination of two versions of the character, sharing their memories and history.
Do they have a consistent feat that is on the tier 4 range? I think they're portrayed as much less powerful than their Post-Crisis counterpart.
I know that they're technically the same as the post-crisis version of themselves but I dont think that we should rank them at tier 4 simply because of that. I mean in Marvel, we know that regular/non-classic Doctor Strange is weaker than the classic doctor strange even though they're the same character.
Not saying that they shouldnt be 4-B but I think that Possibly 4-B and an explanation why they're not outright or likely 4-B is more fitting
Yes, same history but they havent really shown any feat comparable to their post-crisis incarnation (Even thoough, aa you have said, they have similar history). Featwise Rebirth supes is below post-crisis. It seems like he got depowered for the sake od story.