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  • Hi, all. So we have several profiles for members of the Dark Knights of the Dark Multiverse from DC Comics (The Batman Who LaughsThe Drowned, & The Merciless). As such we still don't have any for The Devastator, The Murder Machine, The Dawnbreaker or the Red Death. I've decided to do something for at least one of those. 

    Here's my draft of a profile for the Devastator. I was hoping to get some feedback before I actually put it out on the site. Making any corrections or the like. 

    The profile is published but it's creation has lead to some other questions which pertain to making profiles for the rest of the Dark Knights not yet created and the prexisting ones. This had lead to more questions about the Post-Flashpoint version of the Justice League, whom the Dark Knights scale to.

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    • The Devastator is supposed to be as powerful as Doomsday, and after DC Rebirth, the characters seem to be back at their Post-Crisis power levels, so 4-B is likely a more appropriate rating.

      However, you can ask Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, and Nether nine to give input here as well.

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    • I haven't read enough of Rebirth and was mostly waiting for Doomsday Clock, but yes, since this happens after Superman merges with his New 52 self and restores all 5-A characters to 4-B (also supported by Rebirth Orion blowing up a solar system), Devastator would undeniably be 4-B.

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    • I should also note that New 52's 5-A characters should actually be 5-A+, given how the calcs for their reasoning almost reach Dwarf Star level (They top out at 14.72 ninatons, BTW, a mere 2 ninatons away from High 5-A)/

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    • @Ant 

      Thank you for taking some to look what I have so far over. I've sent out some messages and will patiently await any responses. 

      @KLOL

      Thanks for the feedback. I'll explain why I rated the Devastator the Tier that I did. See, with the whole Post-Flashpoint Superman merging with Post-Crisis Superman I was kind of unsure which version to use to justify the Devastator's Tier. 

      When I read over the comic in which they merge and it was Post-Flashpoint who took in Post-Crisis' essence, memories, etc. So I figured I'd use him, just to stay a little on the safe side. 

      This also brings something else up, an issue I realized when writing the profile for the Devastator: I only gave him the abilities he demonstrated of Doomsday. In the Devastator's origin, he says he infected himself with the Doomsday Virus, he said he'd engineered it. So, I took that as evidence that he may not be exactly like Doomsday and may not have all the capabilities. It also doesn't help that we don't have a profile for Post-Flashpoint Doomsday

      However, I also learned that seemingly Doomsday of Post-Flashpoint, merged with his Post-Crisis self. I'll have to look into that. 

      But to bring things to a head, should I grant the Devastator all of Post-Crisis' abilities? It's honestly easy enough to justify. Also, if so, should we include Post-Flashpoint's version of them as well?

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    • Ok, I've updated the Devastator to be Tier 4 and scaling to Post-Crisis Superman and his stats to reflect that. 

      The biggest thing here is just should we give him all the abilities of Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint Doomsday?

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    • I think that we do not have enough information about him to say for certain. Perhaps you could put "likely" in front of the Post-Crisis Doomsday's most characteristic abilities, i.e. reactive evolution, self-sustenance, regeneration, and such.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I think that we do not have enough information about him to say for certain. Perhaps you could put "likely" in front of the Post-Crisis Doomsday's most characteristic abilities, i.e. reactive evolution, self-sustenance, regeneration, and such.

      This is what I was feeling as well. While logic dictates that he should have them, he never really demonstrated them or got the oppurtunity to do so. The fact that the strain of the Doomsday Virus he uses was engineered is another basis for possible differences. 

      So, for now, I'll add the 'Likely' and Doomsday's iconic abilities.

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    • Well, I've made the additional changes. Fixed some minor errors I spotted. 

      As this point, I'm just waiting for some more input from the members I messaged and the community in general. 

      Thank you Ant and KLOL506 for everything so far.

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Bump

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    • Is someone going to make Red Death too?

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    • WeeklyBattles wrote:
      Is someone going to make Red Death too?

      Eventually, I would say so. I've been thinking about Murder Machine, Red Death and Dawnbreaker and who they would scale to, their abilities, etc. Outside of a few questions for each, the hardest thing is really just gathering up information and providing links to evidence for them. 

      Honestly, if I had to rank them: 

      Red Death would be the easiest profile to work on next. Mainly due to the fact that he primarily scales to Flash who is an unknown in most of his stats. Honestly, the biggest difference between the two would be Red Death's Age Manipulation/Withering Effect and the fact the he has his world's Barry in his head as a weakness. Really, anyone could make the profile easily in my opinion with a little research. 

      Murder Machine is next. His most consistent showings are against Cyborg and his abilities are very straight forward. 

      Finally Dawnbreaker. I just don't what he scales to really. We don't have a profile for Hal Jordan/Green Lantern Post-Flashpoint.

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    • Well, I think I'm going to publish the profile now. I think that it's been put together well all things considered: makes senses, no contradictions or anything. As such, I'll put it out there. If there are any problems further CRTs can be done to correct it but I really don't see that being a major issue at this point. 

      Fingers crossed.

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    • You can probably scale the Dark Knights from their post-Crisis counterparts.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      You can probably scale the Dark Knights from their post-Crisis counterparts.

      Wouldn't that cause a bit of confusion? 

      I mean, the Dark Knights fought the Post-Flashpoint versions of the Justice League. With Superman, it's easy scale Devastator to him since Post-Flashpoint and Post-Crisis Superman merged together. With the other members of the League members, are they in a similiar situation to Superman? Because right now, they are the current versions and are completely seperate from the Post-Crisis counterparts with their own feats, IIRC.

      But you also said that Post-Flashpoint versions are on par with the Post-Crisis. Shouldn't the Flashpoints version be scaled up to their Post-Crisis version then, to avoid any mess or barrage of questions that will occur? It would just make the process of creating this profiles more straight forward and done deal in the long run.

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    • As for the scalings for all the Dark Knights, if we say that they and the Post-Flashpoint Justice League scale to Post-Crisis, it would end up like this: 

      The Devastator- Scales to Superman (Post-Crisis) who merged with Superman (Post-Flashpoint) self. Very straight forward, I just scale him to Post-Crisis.

      The Drowned & Aquaman- If we scale them to Aquaman (Post-Crisis) they would go from 5-A to Unknown. So really, would we want to do that??? Or would we leave that alone since Flashpoint Aquaman actually has feats to put him at 5-A?

      The Merciless & Wonder Woman: Scaling to Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis) would have them go from 5-A to 4-B. No real problems here.

      The Batman Who Laughs & Batman: Both go from 9-A to 8-C​​, scaling to Batman (Post-Crisis). BWL also gets 4-B with weaponry (Scaling to Wonder Woman) and is still Unknown with prep time. 

      The Red Death & Flash: If we scale them to Flash (Barry Allen) (Post-Crisis) they'd be 4-B. However that's based on the Infinite Mass Punch, which has not been done yet in the Post-Flashpoint continuity. So, bit of a red flag there... 

      The Dawnbreaker: We don't have a profile for Green Lantern Hal Jordon for Post-Flashpoint. If we scale Dawnbreaker to Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (Post-Crisis), he's 4-B

      The Murder Machine: 4-B I mean he's killed his universe's entire Justice League which included Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Flash, who, if we're scaling them to Post-Crisis are all 4-B

      Ultimately, it seems to me that the Post-Flashpoint Justice League need to be updated first before I proceed with making anymore of the Dark Knights' profiles. Because, otherwise, it's just going to cause confusion down the line with people asking 'If the Dark Knights scale to Post-Crisis, why doesn't Post-Flashpoint (insert character here)?' 

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    • Bump

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    • The Devastator should scale to Post-Crisis Superman, yes.

      I don't think that we have any calculated feats for Aquaman, regardless of continuity, but he was treated as comparable to Wonder Woman during the Flashpoint event.

      The Merciless should scale to Wonder Woman, who scales to Superman, yes.

      I am unfamiliar with whether or not Batman's entire Post-Crisis history has been restored.

      The Murder Machine is probably 4-B, yes. At least if he defeated the Justice League with raw power.

      We do need to do something about the Post-Flaspoint profiles, yes. I have mentioned this several times previously, but it never seems to happen.

      Here are some members that you can ask to comment here to help us out:

      Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, and Nether nine

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    • I agree with Ant

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    • New 52 Batman has repeatedly been shown to be vastly stronger, and the school explosion calc proves it. The final results were 0.2 tons away from High 8-C, and it badly damaged Batman's suit. He also has no problems fighting against those who can damage it. The calc was accepted, but it has still not yet been applied. No point in him scaling to Post-Crisis Bats, who has some decent Tier 8 feats himself (Hellbeast is working on it ATM).

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    • Ok, 

      Bumping up the Flashpoint League to Post-Crisis levels, we can just say that they're comparable to Post-Crisis. 

      Going to draft up some reasonings/justifiaction:

      Wonder Woman: 4-B (Should be comparable to her Post-Crisis incarnation), Ignores Durability with her sword. This is very straight forward and clean. 

      Flash: 4-B (Despite not performing the Infinite Mass Punch yet, he should be capable of it as he is comparable to his Post-Crisis self.) Luckily, this is also pretty straight forward.

      Aquaman: 4-B (Has fought against Wonder Woman, Superman and Martian Manhunter). Should we leave out his fighting of Flashpoint Superman and Martian Manhunter? Him fighting with WW alone leaves him at 4-B or should we keep them for extra justification? 

      Batman: 8-C+ due to calc. 

      Cyborg: 4-B (Held his own against Aquaman and Superman

      Superman: 4-B? He merged with his Post-Crisis self.

      If all of those check out and get update, it makes scaling the Dark Knights much easier.

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    • Also, I think it would be wise to note which comic book issues feats like these happen (Makes research much easier).

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    • KLOL506 wrote:
      Also, I think it would be wise to note which comic book issues feats like these happen (Makes research much easier).

      I certainly agree that such things make it easier, but it would take a bit of time to find out which comics the feats originate from. I was simply working with what's already been put onto their pages and running with the notion of 'Comparable to their Post-Crisis selves'.

      Simply justifying Wonder Woman as 4-B can justify Aquaman's and Cyborg's ratings. That's 3 members down right there. 

      Flash is as easy as Wonder Woman if we simply say he's comparable to his Post-Crisis self. 

      Batman has his own calc and feats to stand on. 

      Superman may not need to be changed. So there's that.

      Aaaannndddd Green Lantern's got no Post-Flashpoint profile soooo... 

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    • No, what I meant was, generally when calcs are made, it makes it easier to find the feat if the issue or reference to the source material is found. For example, I still haven't found the issue of Spidey's Low 7-C feat.

      The powerscaling thing really doesn't need context, IMHO, since it's ridiculously consistent at this point.

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    • Oh...yeah competely agree. Without knowing what comic a feat comes from, you can't always evaulate the context of the situation, which is so important. 

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    • I don't think there should be a Post-Flashpoint Green Lantern profile since his history wasn't really rebooted in Flashpoint like Batman.

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    • Standuser081 wrote:
      I don't think there should be a Post-Flashpoint Green Lantern profile since his history wasn't really rebooted in Flashpoint like Batman.

      It really seems like that. Some charactes got their entire origin and early history changed, others not so much.

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    • I think that it would be easiest to get rid of some of the outdated post-Flashpoint profiles (such as Superman and Wonder Woman), and rewrite others (such as Batman) to replace them with "Post-Rebirth" profiles instead.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Here are some members that you can ask to comment here to help us out:

      Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, and Nether nine

      Have you asked all of them?

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Antvasima wrote:

      Here are some members that you can ask to comment here to help us out:

      Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, and Nether nine

      Have you asked all of them?

      I've contacted all of except Shivansh Garg, who admits to not being knoweldegable on DC.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I think that it would be easiest to get rid of some of the outdated post-Flashpoint profiles (such as Superman and Wonder Woman), and rewrite others (such as Batman) to replace them with "Post-Rebirth" profiles instead.

      Agreed.

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    • I agree with ant

      also dawnbreaker should have a low 2-C key, since he destroyed the universe after fully absorbing the lantern battery.

      I am going to elaborate more later.

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    • So would somebody experienced be willing to write replacements for the post-Flashpoint profiles?

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    • Well, I got a response from Zensum. 

      Zensum wrote:
      I heavily disagree with the scaling especially with the Post-Crisis incarnations being directly comparable to their Flash/Post-Flash/Rebirth counterparts other than Superman but have no time to argue a long post.
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    • The feats heavily say otherwise, I'm afraid. They have their own 4-B feats now, with or without scaling to their Post-Crisis counterparts. Rebirth Orion is legit 4-B.

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    • Can somebody collect a list of all our post-Flashpoint profiles?

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    • I think their 5-A feats should remain, and we should clarify that part as pre-Rebirth. The characters post-Rebirth are completely different.

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    • I think we should just merge the Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint profiles and give them 3 keys:

      Pre-Flashpoint | Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth

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    • New 52 Superman is a different character with a different history.

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    • We should keep Post-Crisis seperate. They are different characters with, what, decades worth of history, feats and potrayals? 

      As for Post-Flashpoint and Rebirth we could just add onto the Post-Flashpoint profiles and rename them "Prime-Earth" or "New-52"? The profiles would have two keys:

      Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth 

      It would make sense, especially since characters like Flashpoint Superman fused with his Post-Crisis self. It would allows to reflect how the characters where right after Flashpoint happened and them update them with the Rebirth material. 

      That way, we can add the new material feats without just getting rid of everything that came before. It would also lighten the workload and we wouldn't have to make some profiles from the ground up.

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    • I think that using two keys for the post-Flashpoint profiles seems to be a good idea. I would prefer more staff input though.

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    • Darkseid probably needs a "Rebirth" key as well, btw.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Darkseid probably need a "Rebirth" key as well, btw.

      Honestly, we could probably just change his Post-Flashpoint Avatar key. If we're actually going to just update the Post-Flashpoint profiles into the hypothetical Prime Earth or New 52 profiles, Darkseid could just have his key updated to reflect that. Any feats he performs could just be chalked up to the fact that his avatars can vary in power. We already do that with his Post-Crisis avatars. 

      That reminds me, Orion has to also be included in the profiles list. 

      As for the staff inqut, I got a message from Azzy saying he'll look into the thread eventually. I contacted Matt eariler today and yesterday and I've never gotten a response. I will presume he's busy as I've seen him active on site. 

      So outside of contacting more staff or highlighting the thread, I don't know what else to do. I wil say this, that the consequences of this thread affect 17 already established profiles and 3 hypothetical/in progress profiles. I don't know if that's enough to warrant a highlight.

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    • A highlight (or rather a link in our official highlights thread, given that the highlights function was removed) seems to be a bad idea for this particular thread, as Marvel and DC are extremely hard to evaluate properly, due to being very inconsistent and dense to get into, and this would attract relatively uninformed people.

      It is probably better to just inform all of the members that have shown to be reasonably knowledgeable about them in the past.

      Here is my current list:

      Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2 (you), and Nether nine.

      We particularly need the help of Matthew and Sandman31.

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    • Can you link to the thread where you asked Matthew?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Can you link to the thread where you asked Matthew?

      Sure. Just to note, the original message may sound a tad narrow due to us progressing beyond where we at in the thread at that time.

      Thread:2533279

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • Bump

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    • Have you asked all of the people that I recommended to comment here? You can tell them that I would appreciate the help.

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    • Azzy said he'd come by at somepoint, though he feels like he's not that knowledgable on the matter. Hykuu has said that they'd come back to talk in more detail as well. That was yesterday. 

      Zensum seems to be busy and doesn't really have time to come participate. 

      Sandman31 hasn't answered the last two I've messages I've left. Nether nine is in the same boat.

      Matthew, he's been active on site but...hasn't answered me at all...lack of interest?

      KLOL506 has been dropping in and out of the thread, so I'd assmume that he's just making time where he can. 

      Finally, Shivansh Garg, I haven't messaged them but that's because when I went to their wall, someone had asked for help with a DC thread and Garg said they weren't knowledgable and recommended speaking to Hykuu. 

      After a while, I feel like I'm pestering them.

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    • Okay. I suppose that we can wait a few days to see if they reply.

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    • In the meantime, you can start thinking about how to properly rewrite the pages in question.

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    • I suggest renaming the Post-Flashpoint Superman page to Superman (New 52) instead, since he's completely different from his Post-Crisis counterpart.

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    • Why would your page title be better in this case?

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    • Because Post-Crisis Superman got turned into his Rebirth self upon merging with his New 52 counterpart.

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    • I am actually a bit lost here... can someone summarize what we are doing to the profiles?

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    • Hykuu wrote:
      I am actually a bit lost here... can someone summarize what we are doing to the profiles?

      We're updating the Post-Flashpoint profiles to incoporate the changes, feats, etc. that have happened since DC:Rebirth. 

      Basically, the Multiverse has changed again and new things have happened with the characters but our profiles do not reflect it, currently.

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    • Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity.

      Post-Flashpoint Batman- Gets upgraded to 8-C+ via school explosion calc.

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    • " We're updating the Post-Flashpoint profiles to incoporate the changes, feats, etc. that have happened since DC:Rebirth.  "

      Ok, that seems logical.

      " Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity. "


      They themselves have solar system feats of their own, but i guess this scaling also works. But like, the entire point of rebirth is every continuity being merged into one, pre crisis, post, etc. (not everyone was effected If i recall correctly)

      also this

      Newsrama: How would you describe what's happened now to Superman - is he truly a new person, or kind of a mix of what he was before?

      Jurgens: In a way, the answer would be, “All of the above. I think of him as a new person. There are adventures in his past we haven’t seen. Yet we selected some of the best possible aspects of his past to include, selecting from both the "New 52" Superman and pre-Flashpoint Superman, to make everything work. And, yes, to make that work right, we discarded some elements as well. Superman’s past was messed with for a period of time. During that time, he was separated in two, living two distinctly different lives as two distinctly different characters. During “Reborn,” those timelines were merged and rebuilt as one. There was essentially one Superman and one Lois. As for how and why his past was altered, that’s a story that will unfold down the road.

      Newsrama: Do they remember all of it? Part of it? What are their memories of what just happened?

      Jurgens: They do not remember all of it. Superman knows that his reality was fractured for a time. He no longer remembers the details or every aspect of it. For him, it’s somewhat like waking from a bad dream. For a brief second or two, you might remember it but the memory fades. All you know is that something has left you with an unsettled feeling. So shall it be for Superman

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    • I'm not crazy familiar with everything that has happened in Rebirth, but I'm a quick learner. We need to get everyone's various feats together. Who did what and who scales to them. 

      Superman: This is the easy one. Post-Flashpoint merged with Post-Crisis. Not only that but their histories did as well. As such, he can easily be said to be 4-B as he should have reclaimed his Post-Crisis power levels. In addition, when the two versions fused together, this caused a chain reaction that did this for everyone one, creating a reality made from Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint.

      If we can accept that, we can reasonably scale a lot of characters back to him plus their own feats. That would be a good starting point, IMO.

      IIRC, Green Lantern and Orion also fought someone who could destory Solar Systems. 

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    • GL fought superman, nearly everyone scales to that.

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    • Okay, so if we scale Green Lantern to Superman, things should go like this then: 

      (Note: I'm assmung that because Rebirth changed Superman's history that, this would reflect on Post-Flashpoint's feats and fights)

      Superman: 4-B (Merged with his Post-Crisis self with their histories intertwined. Hence, he should be capable of the same feats.)

      Green Lantern: 4-B (Fought Superman) 

      Wonder Woman: 4-B (Fought Superman and broken out of Green Lantern's constructs) 

      Aquaman: 4-B (Held his own against both Superman and Wonder Woman) 

      Supergirl: 4-B (has fought both Superman and Wonder Woman) 

      Darkseid: 4-B (Should be stronger than Superman) 

      Orion: 4-B (Should be superior to Wonder Woman) 

      Cyborg: 4-B (Fought Mammoth, who can contend with Superman and Aquaman) 

      Flash: 4-B (Broke Green Lantern's ring with the help of Wally West)

      Zoom: 4-B (Scales to Flash)

      Godspeed: 4-B (Scales to Flash)

      Superboy: ???

      Batman: 8-C+, 4-B with Hellbat (Harmed Darkseid)  

      Swamp Thing 4-B (Overpowered Superman and fought Wonder Woman. Far above Aquaman) 

      Grail: I don't believe we've seen her since Rebirth. 

      Super-Man: 4-B due to copying Superman's powers. 

      H'el: 4-B (Stronger than Superman) 

      Rao: 4-B (Harmed both Superman and Wonder Woman) 

      Black Alice: Unknown. Don't think there's anything to change here. At least, none that I know of...

      If there's any issue, feel free to let me know.

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    • "

      Flash: ??? (Needs a feat here)

      Zoom: ??? (Same deal has Flash)

      Superboy: ???

      "

      Flash has consistenly shown to be on par with the other JL members, with his IMP, afaik.


      Zoom scales.


      Idek about superboy  but I always put him comparable to Superman

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    • Rebirth Flash with the help of Wally broke GL's ring.

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    • Oh yeah, the Dark Multiverse: 

      The Batman Who Laughs: 8-C+ physically (Even with Batman), 4-B with weapons (Knocked out Wonder Woman), Unknown with Prep 

      The Merciless: 4-B (Overpowered Wonder Woman) 

      The Drowned: 4-B (Can overpower Aquaman) 

      The Devastator: 4-B (Fought and killed his universe's Superman. Easily subdued main universe Superman) 

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    • Ok time for the hypotheticals that started this whole thing. This is just so once this all goes down and I create the rest of the Dark Multiverse profiles, everything will be clear and I can just create them without too many eyebrows raised: 

      The Murder Machine: 4-B (Fought, overpowered and killed his universe's entire Justice League. Can harm Cyborg) 

      The Red Death: 4-B (Fought and overpowered Flash) 

      The Dawnbreaker: 4-B (Can overpower Green Lantern. Killed the Guardians and multiple Green Lanterns of his universe.)

      Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse. 


      As for the update of the Post-Flashpoint profiles already established, we've thrown around some ideas but I'll try and sum them up, so that anyone who comes into the debate at this point can see what we're trying to do. 

      1. Rename Post-Flashpoint profiles. New 52 or Prime Earth, are good names for this. 

      2. Utilize a key for these profiles, so that we don't have to remake them from the ground up. Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth has been proposed.

      3. Set up scaling and feat chain for the Rebirth key so everything makes sense. Also forms basis for any future character profiles.

      4. Discuss any other concerns or objections.

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    • Before I go to bed I will leave this.

      I am still working on the profiles for the Murder Machine, the Red Death and the Dawnbreaker, though I won't release any of them until the whole Post-Flashpoint/Rebirth fixing is done with, for the sake of simplicity.

      That said, I'm almost done with the Murder Machine .

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    • I think that almost all of your suggestions seem to make sense, but am uncertain about Cyborg.

      So, should we rewrite the post-Flashpoint profiles entirely, or just give them new Rebirth keys?

      Btw: The Justice Society and Legion of Superheroes are still not restored in the Rebirth continuity, but likely will be after Doomsday Clock.

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    • "Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse. '

      U sure

      I do remember a statement indicating he did it i think, I'll try and get it later

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    • So are the Rebirth versions going to be 4-B? Can someone post a 4-B feat of Rebirth Superman? I know he has the same history as PC but I honestly think Rebirth Superman was portrayed nowhere as near as powerful as the PC supes.So I think maybe a likely 4-B may work if we dont have anything concrete to based 4-B on.

      I'm also a little skeptical of the supposed 4-B feats from Rebirth as shown in the previous superman upgrade thread

      Maybe I'm just being too careful/paranoid so I'll just go with what everyone agrees on here, I dont have the energy to enter a long argument.  

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    • " I'm also a little skeptical of the supposed 4-B feats from Rebirth as shown in the previous superman upgrade thread "

      y

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    • Well, most of Superman's post-Crisis history seems to have been restored.

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    • The Justice Buster's microscopic red suns were agreed to be either 5-A or High 4-C  

      I dont think anyone should scale to the Golem destroying a solar system. Orion fought it yes but  he didnt actually tank the energy discharge of the golem that destroyed the solar system. He escaped using his boom tube. The Nth Metal Golems were stomping everyone including Orion, the GLs and even Highfather and they were only able to defeat them by attacking their weak spots. 

      @Ant 

      Yes, but I dont think he's been portrayed as powerful as PC. I know that it was restored which is why I think maybe something like "likely 4-B" is better  

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    • likely 4-B might work tbh.

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    • I suppose that "Likely 4-B" works, yes.

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    • So two questions then. 

      1. Would the rating be just 'Likely 4-B' or something akin to '5-A, Likely 4-B'? 

      2. How should we phrase the justification?

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    • 1) Just "Likely 4-B", I think.

      2) Maybe "(Most of the history of his Post-Crisis incarnation has been restored, which likely means a similar scale of power)" for the Superman (Post-Flashpoint) profile, and scaling the others to it?

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    • I would appreciate help with getting these revisions done.

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    • Ok, I'm off from work today and tomorrow, so I've got some time. 

      Should we start, I don't know, dividing up who handles what? There's quite a lot of profiles to modify..

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    • Well, I am unable to help out, due to already being very overworked, but feel free to try to organise this among the highly experienced knowledgeable members, as I don't want to have to do a lot of cleanup work afterwards.

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    • Thank you for the help in any case.

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    • Well, if someone can at least unlock Superman (Post-Flashpoint) , I can get the ball rolling so that however long it takes to get all the profiles, Superman, who so many people are scaling to will be done.

      Just to make sure I got everything right, thought: 

      1. Are we keeping the profile name Post-Flashpoint or are we changing it? 

      2. Superman is getting a Rebirth key which would feature the following

      Tier: Likely 4-B 

      AP: Likely Solar System Level (With most of the history of his Post-Crisis self restored, he should be capable of a similar levels of power) 

      Speed: Likely Massively FTL+ (Comparable to his Post-Crisis incarnation) 

      Lifting Strength: Likely Multi-Stellar 

      Striking Strength: Likely Solar System Level

      Durability: Likely Solar System Level 

      Stamina: Essentially infinite while under a yellow or blue sun 

      Range: Same as Post-Flashpoint

      Standard Equipment: Same as Post-Flashpoint  

      Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius based on having most, if not all, of his memoris from Post-Crisis. 

      Weaknesses: Same as Post-Flashpoint

      Please, let me know if something seems off, so that I'll have all the details sorted out before making any edits.

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    • 1) I think that the title can remain, as even Rebirth technically happened post-Flashpoint.

      2) That seems fine.

      I will unlock the profile for you. Tell me here when you are done.

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    • It is probably best if you updated the bloated and outdated summary section as well.

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    • I think keys titled New 52 and Rebirth seem just fine.

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    • I have also changed Superman's 5-A AP to 5-A+ according to our Attack Potency page

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    • I can apply the AP changes for all the Post-Flashpoint profiles.

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    • KLOL506 wrote: I think keys titled New 52 and Rebirth seem just fine.

      This seems like a good idea.

      Also, help with applying the changes would be very appreciated, as you tend to usually be competent when editing profiles.

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    • Sure thing. I'll see what I can do.

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    • But I'll need a few more people validating the school explosion calc of Batman. I mean, the calc has nothing wrong in it and was corrected even, and there have been multiple confirmations that it damaged his suit really badly but only slightly wounded him, and he can trade blows with enemies capable of doing so (Then again you literally never see him without the suit so it makes sense).

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    • Wait, what would Rebirth Superman have for a picture? Also, I'm not that good with summaries.

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    • Here is the image that we used for him previously, but he has the classic costume (with red trunks) back now.

      Superman Rebirth
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    • Here's the best one I have with him on his red trunks
      5133b7ed0f7fc74a12b0d1317e266afb
       right now.
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    • Ok, got done editing Superman's page. 

      I also took the liberty of tweaking his ability section, given that he should likely have most of his resistances, especially the were Mister Mxy tries to erase him from time and space, given that he's wearing his updated costume from Post-Rebirth and the picture for the feat says Super Sons, which is also after Rebirth. 

      Also, added a tabber with Supes' new costume as of Rebirth.

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    • Wait, Supes changed costume again?? Well, we'll have to change the picture...((sigh))

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    • He should also have Mid-Low Regen. I wonder why he doesn't have it in his profiles.

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    • KLOL506 wrote:

      Here's the best one I have with him on his red trunks
      5133b7ed0f7fc74a12b0d1317e266afb
       right now.

      This image seems fine to use.

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    • Tne summary section also still needs to be fixed. Keep it brief and to the point please.

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    • Can Rebirth Supes use the Super Flare? Because I haven't seen him do so AFAIK.

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    • I think that he could, but that it would be stupid, since it depowers him.

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    • He has both the memories of Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint, should be capable of it even if he doesn't use it.

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    • Well, the fact that it depowers him for 24 straight hours (IIRC) is missing.

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    • Is somebody willing to rewrite and shorten down the summary section?

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    • I myself have no idea how to do so. Removing the clothing part would significantly help tho.

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    • Would the link for New 52 Superman not coming back be even necessary anymore?

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    • KLOL506 wrote:
      Would the link for New 52 Superman not coming back be even necessary anymore?

      It isn't and I have removed it.

      As for his summary how about this: 

      Superman, also known as Clark Kent and Kal-El, is a Kryptonian superhero. Though born of the planet Krypton, he was sent away in a spaceship as a baby to save him from his homeplanet's destruction. His spaceship landed on Earth in Smallville, Kansas where he was found and adopted by Jonathan and Martha Kent. Raised to a high moral standard, Superman uses his powers to protect innocents and safeguard his adopted home. He is husband to Lois Lane and the father of Superboy.

      This version of Superman is unique, being a combination of two versions of the character, sharing their memories and history.

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    • Works.

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    • I will most likely be going to sleep in a moment because the strain of work in other areas has taxed me greatly so I might be off for a few hours before I'm fully active again.

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    • Gotcha, I've got to get some sleep myself.

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    • I think that summary seems good.

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    • Do they have a consistent feat that is on the tier 4 range? I think they're portrayed as much less powerful than their Post-Crisis counterpart. 

      I know that they're technically the same as the post-crisis version of themselves but I dont think that we should rank them at tier 4 simply because of that. I mean in Marvel, we know that regular/non-classic Doctor Strange is weaker than the classic doctor strange even though they're the same character. 

      Not saying that they shouldnt be 4-B but I think that Possibly 4-B and an explanation why they're not outright or likely 4-B is more fitting 

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    • I suppose that "possibly 4-B" might work, but since the history is largely the same, "likely" works for me as well.

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    • Yes, same history but they havent really shown any feat comparable to their post-crisis incarnation (Even thoough, aa you have said, they have similar history). Featwise Rebirth supes is below post-crisis. It seems like he got depowered for the sake od story.

      But, yeah, im fine either way.

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    • So is anybody willing to revise the profiles? I would appreciate the help.

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    • Does anyone have any problems with Batman's 8-C+ feat? If not, then I can edit his profile and those who scale to him.

      REMEMBER, this is only for New 52 Batman and beyond.

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    • Please explain further.

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    • This feat is what I'm talking about.

      It'd upgrade Post-Flaspoint Batman and anyone he's fought against.

      It's already been accepted by one calc member, and I think a few more members would seal the deal.

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    • Well, I suppose that seems fine, but you can ask a few calc group members to verify if via their message walls.

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    • I have posted the feat in the Calculation Evaluations thread.

      I had also notified several other calc group members to look at it a few months back, but they didn't respond.

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    • Okay. Well, it has technicallly already been accepted, and was done by a reliable staff member, so if we do not get any responses, it might be acceptable on its own.

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    • I guess that makes sense.

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    • Will somebody have time to update all of the profiles scaled from Rebirth Superman soon?

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    • I have some time. I just need to catch some sleep first.

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    • Okay. Thank you for the help. I think that we agreed on "Possibly 4-B" rather than "Likely 4-B".

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    • A FANDOM user
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