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  • Matthew Schroeder
    Matthew Schroeder closed this thread because:
    Closing this.
    12:52, February 1, 2019

    Both at their 3-A keys (obviously), Broly made Post-ToP SSJ Vegeta struggle and even forced him to use SSJG, while Vegetto is unquantifiably stronger than SSJB Goku from the Zamasu saga. who wins?

    Base Broly Dokkan

    Base Broly

    Vegito super saiyan blue by frost z-dbtix5j

    Broly: 9 (Peter1129 , Warren Valion, The real cal howard, JackJoyce , DragonEmperor23 , LightinAnt, The 2nd Existential Seed, WarriorofMite, LSirLancelotDuLacl).

    Vegito: 1 (Sptflcrw)

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    • I....I don't know.

      These should effectively be the strongest 3-A's in Dragon Ball.

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    • So the scaling for both goes like this.

      Base Vegito = (Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku + Future Trunks Saga SSB Vegeta) x 20-100. And now you stack the transformations on top of him.

      Base Broly is somewhere between much weaker than Post-ToP SSG Vegeta and much stronger than Post-ToP SS1 Vegeta who is 40x stronger than Post-ToP Base Vegeta who should be comparable to Post-ToP Base Goku who is stronger than Pre-UIS SSBKK Goku who is 2x-20x stronger than Pre-UIS SSB Goku who is 40x stronger than Pre-UIS SSG Goku who is stronger than Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku.

      Honestly I have no clue who has the higher AP since they both have a scaling chain that makes them ridiculously higher than most 3-As in DBS. However I’m going to vote for Broly due to his ridiculous Reactive Power Level which will eventually make him surpass Vegito even if his AP is slightly lower. Plus Vegito has a time limit after it runs out it’s pretty much gg for him.

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    • How high into 3-A are these guys?


      Broly FRA.

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    • Well End of Battle of Gods Saga Base Goku is at least 8x baseline 3-A after absorbing SSG and getting a zenkai boost.

      After that Goku could stack transformations on top of his base form that has probably grown even stronger in the Resurrection of Frieza Saga.

      After that he’s gotten even stronger in the Universe 6 Tournament Saga.

      By the end of the Future Trunks Saga his SSB form is at least 10x stronger than before since Post-FT Saga SSB Goku manages to stalemate an even stronger Hit who was comparable to U6 Tournament SSBKKx10 Goku.

      By the Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSG Goku became stronger than End of FT Saga SSB Goku since he manages to keep up with Base Dyspo who was beating an even more powerful Hit.

      At the end of the tournament after all the UIS/UI limit breaking boosts his base form eventually surpassed his SSBKK form at the beginning of the tournament.

      By the Broly Saga he should be even more powerful than he was at the end of the ToP.

      So basically scaling from Goku the strongest 3-As of DBS are so ridiculously high into 3-A you would probably need to be a couple billion or trillion times above baseline 3-A to match them in AP.

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    • Dragon Ball scaling is fucking ridiculous.

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    • bump.

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    • I have an observation even though they have not said it through canon
      but it's from both battles
      Potara clays have a limit for veggetto
      they are only made for kaioshin and limited in time and if there is a desvalance the fusion is finished
      in the case of Zamasu, he could force the merger even if the time was up
      Gogeta is different its fusion is by means of a dance created by metamorano magical mortals
        if it is the same case of zamasu, but "eye"
      there are no restrictions by means of clays
      gogeta would not have time limit
      rather gogeta would be from now on the emblem of perfect fusion of goku and vegeta
      can keep the merger until they want and then when they want to finish the merger
        that would get an improvement, I hope that it confirms kishimoto since vegeto is limited to the clays
      but the fusion dance is very different you can get improvements
      instead of clays for a better fusion of vegeto the clays should be improved, greetings

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    • One Million at best, guys. Most likely several thousands. Billions, let alone trillions is ridiculous. There’s legit one feat that people scale to, and it’s 5x baseline, maybe 10. Geesh...

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    • The strongest Dragon Ball 3-As are in the billions or trillions via sheer scaling and multipliers though.

      Base Goku by the end of Battle of Gods is at least 8x baseline 3-A. Than his base form gets even stronger through training in Resurrection of Frieza. And that’s before stacking the multipliers for each form on him. Than he gets even stronger through more training in the Universe 6 Tournament Saga. There’s also the thing with him getting 10x stronger after the Future Trunks Saga and than 40x stronger by the beginning of the Universe Survival Saga. And eventually after the Tournament of Power his base form surpassed his strongest 3-A form at the beginning of the Tournament of Power. Before he gets even stronger in the Broly Saga due to more training.

      SS1 is accepted as 40x on the site and Kaioken multipliers are accepted. So if we assume low balls such as both SS2 and SS3 being a 2x multiplier with SSG being a mere 10x multiplier. The multiplier scaling would be like this if we also assume his base never got any stronger in between Battle of Gods and Universe 6 Tournament.

      8 (End of Battle of Gods/Resurrection of Frieza/Universe 6 Tournament Base Goku) x 40 = 320 (Universe 6 Tournament SS1) x 2 = 640 (Universe 6 Tournament SS2) x 2 = 1,280 (Universe 6 Tournament SS3) x 10 = 12,800 (Universe 6 Tournament SSG) x 40 = 512,000 (Universe 6 Tournament SSB) x 10 = 5,120,000 (Universe 6 Tournament SSBKKx10/Future Trunks Saga SSB/Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSG) x 40 = 204,800,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB) x 20 = 4,096,000,000 (Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSBKKx20/Broly Saga Base) x 40 = 163,840,000,000 (Broly Saga SS1)

      A hypothetical low balled Broly Saga SS1 Goku would be 163,840,000,000x above baseline 3-A. And Broly is above this in base. And this is the ridiculously low balled version assuming SSG is only 10x even though it’s multiplier is supposed to be bigger than a hypothetical fusion of Vegito in Battle of Gods which is at least 200x if we assume a low ball.

      But at least we know it’s impossible for Dragon Ball 3-As to be quadrillions of times above baseline. Since after they reach the quadrillions they will be Low 2-C instead of 3-A. Since Dragon Ball can apparently jump infinity after they reach a certain lvl of power.

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    • Warren Valion wrote: Dragon Ball scaling is fucking ridiculous.

      ^

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    • I don't think there's any way to find out who's stronger here. While Broly made Vegeta struggle as SSJ and made him go SSG, SSB Vegito is ridiculously above SSB Goku and Vegeta from the Black arc. 

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    • There is literally no fiction that we will reasonably accept to be trillions of times above the feat they scale to without explicit mention and (and, not or) proof. I don’t care if it’s Dragon Ball or Digimon or Umineko.

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    • Do you mean something like “I am trillions of times stronger than I was when I unlocked SSG for the first time” or do you want an author statement along those lines? If the multipliers are accurate, then isn’t that the proof needed?

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    • The real cal howard wrote: There is literally no fiction that we will reasonably accept to be trillions of times above the feat they scale to without explicit mention and (and, not or) proof. I don’t care if it’s Dragon Ball or Digimon or Umineko.

      What other fiction has scaling like this?

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    • No. No it is not. Unless you want sh*t like quintillions of times baseline 3-A Methuselah via scaling from a 5-B statement. Multipliers only go so far before they’re thrown out the window.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: No. No it is not. Unless you want sh*t like quintillions of times baseline 3-A Methuselah via scaling from a 5-B statement. Multipliers only go so far before they’re thrown out the window.

      That's because 3-A Dies Irae cast are outliers, not that the multipliers are ridiculous.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote: There is literally no fiction that we will reasonably accept to be trillions of times above the feat they scale to without explicit mention and (and, not or) proof. I don’t care if it’s Dragon Ball or Digimon or Umineko.

      What other fiction has scaling like this?

      Literally any shounen has power progression. Heck, pretty much any battle fiction does. For example, Ash’s Pikachu has been High 6-C since halfway into Kanto twenty goddamn years ago.

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    • Warren Valion wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote: No. No it is not. Unless you want sh*t like quintillions of times baseline 3-A Methuselah via scaling from a 5-B statement. Multipliers only go so far before they’re thrown out the window.

      That's because 3-A Dies Irae cast are outliers, not that the multipliers are ridiculous.

      The two are literally in the same boat here. And yes, it’s because it’s ridiculous, not because of outliers. This is the same verse that reaches 1-A with fodder.

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    • So what’s the standard stopping point where you go “Okay, no more higher than this with multipliers.”?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Literally any shounen has power progression. Heck, pretty much any battle fiction does. For example, Ash’s Pikachu has been High 6-C since halfway into Kanto twenty goddamn years ago.

      Other Shonens aren't in a tier that is infinite in size and progress from 3-A to Low 2-C via feats.

      Those other Shonens have power progression, and they have feats that put them in a higher tier, so if the scaling goes way beyond the feats, then it would be disregarded.

      This can't happen in 3-A as there is no higher tier that you can naturally reach.

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    • So does that mean someone that gets a infinite multiplier from a transformation wouldn’t get a high 3-A (3-D variant), if there are no feats that come close in the series?

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    • Plus in Dies Irae the fodder become 1-A because the higher Tiers make them 1-A. They don’t do it through multipliers.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: The two are literally in the same boat here. And yes, it’s because it’s ridiculous, not because of outliers. This is the same verse that reaches 1-A with fodder.

      No, it's not.

      A much stronger Reinhard scales to a 4-A feat, so a weaker feat can't be 3-A.

      It is a contradiction, not that the multiplier is really high.

      We scale Meth's mindhax off that multiplier just fine, and we consider it the strongest 3-D mindhax on the site because of said multiplier.

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    • @Hue. High 3-A would be acceptable as that’s one transformation, and that’s the point of it. DB comes from scaling and stacking to the point of ridiculousness.

      @Warren. If anything, that makes it even more unacceptable. They don’t surpass tiers despite there being a finite number between the tiers. Other Shounen, for example, Yu Yu Hakusho. Both, Raizen and Shinobu Sensui are 6-B. Yet Raizen in his prime is so far above Sensui that I couldn't do it justice in this thread.

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    • “We scale Meth's mindhax off that multiplier just fine, and we consider it the strongest 3-D mindhax on the site because of said multiplier.”

      An outlier is an outlier, for hax and AP. I’d it’d be an outlier for the AP, it would be an outlier for the hax. Meth doesn’t even need the multiplier to have the best 3-D mindhax with the feat he has (seriously, f*** DI for doing everything in its power to have story breaking powers). It’s that good regardless.

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    • I highly doubt anything in Yu Yu Hakusho could compare to Dragon Ball's scaling.

      This just sounds like you don't like that Dragon Ball has an AP value that is logically this high.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: “We scale Meth's mindhax off that multiplier just fine, and we consider it the strongest 3-D mindhax on the site because of said multiplier.”

      An outlier is an outlier, for hax and AP. I’d it’d be an outlier for the AP, it would be an outlier for the hax. Meth doesn’t even need the multiplier to have the best 3-D mindhax with the feat he has (seriously, f*** DI for doing everything in its power to have story breaking powers). It’s that good regardless.

      Make a CRT then.
      
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    • Firstly, it’s no secret that I don’t like Dragon Ball on here (though I love it when it’s not VSBW related), and it’s not logical.

      Secondly, it depends on if you’re talking about gaps proportionally or pure stats. If it’s the latter, obviously. The former is hilariously untrue. Even disregarding the gaps, at least YYH shows the superiority by one shotting people that were lower on the scaling chain. Yusuke one-shots multiple demons who each are said to be able to do the same to someone on Sensui’s level, and Yusuke isn’t anywhere near the top yet. DBS fails to give one instance of someone one shotting someone they previously had trouble with.

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    • That’s probably because most people train after their first encounters so they’re stronger than they were the first time or are still so much more stronger that the newly stronger character even after the buff can’t one shot or hurt them.

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    • Also, neither SMT nor Digimon’s insane chains are recognized go up to trillions, and they have an infinite tier too. Same with Lavos as the Time Devourer, even though a fragment of the power of a piece of it that fell off of it when it was 5-A is massively above baseline 2-A.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: That’s probably because most people train after their first encounters so they’re stronger than they were the first time or are still so much more stronger that the newly stronger character even after the buff can’t one shot or hurt them.

      Or, and this is the much more logical assessment, the boost isn’t as major as people hype it up to be.

      Take the ToP, where despite people hyping up the stomp chains, not a single person gets one-shot.

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    • Guys guys it's Broly vs Vegito. It's not even DB vs something, it's DB vs DB. Every DB thread doesn't have to turn out like this.

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    • I mean, it’s not like Base Goku after the tournament of power can oneshot Vegeta in SSB currently just because he’s able to do it to a weaker Vegeta in SSB from the past.

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    • It’s the principle, @AKM.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: I mean, it’s not like Base Goku after the tournament of power can oneshot Vegeta in SSB currently just because he’s able to do it to a weaker Vegeta in SSB from the past.

      I highly doubt base Goku could even one-shot RoF SSB Vegeta.

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    • Peter1129 wrote: So the scaling for both goes like this..


      You cannot stack kaioken on top of Goku while measuring Base fusion power levels. Kaioken is completely different from normal transformations.

      Also SSB KKx10 Goku was able to hurt Merged Zamasu somehow. While SSB Vegito was fighting on par with him. Which make things even more complicated.

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    • Well even if it’s just SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta x tens of times Vegito is still one of the strongest 3-As of Dragon Ball.

      SSBKKx10 Goku managing to hurt Fusion Zamasu is an outlier. Goku Black was already stated to be the strongest non Fusion and god character of the Future Trunks Saga. So the fact that somebody weaker than a fusee can harm the Fusion is an outlier.

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    • That's because every character gets stronger, or they hold back against weaker opponents because they like fighting.

      And it is logical scaling. ABC logic applies in Dragon Ball because the series is almost purely physical in its characters abilities. The transformations and amplifications are consistent.

      Logically, this how strong these characters should be when using the logic from the series.

      You wouldn't say that Goku needs to stomp Raditz-level characters after he defeats Frieza to prove that he got stronger, right?

      Just because it is ridiculously high, doesn't mean it should be disregarded. Case in point, Meth from Dies Irae's mind hax, which is even more ridiculous as it is one multiplier instead of numerous ones from an entire series.

      You need proof to say the scaling is wrong, not "it doesn't feel right", I don't like Pokemon gods being so powerful, but I don't deny their power because it doesn't sit right with me.

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    • Not my fault they don’t have feats backing it up.

      ABC logic applies to everything, not just DB. DB gets enough special treatment as it is. Furthermore, did you see the three new examples I put above?

      No, because Goku scales to feats far above Raditz due to being tier 4, and more importantly, Nappa was stomping multiple people who are each on Raditz’s level casually. Furthermore, getting stronger doesn’t mean you got stronger by multiple factors of ten each time.

      Again, Meth’s mindhax is just that high. They’re different cases. Also, yeah, it kinda does. PMMM supporters stopped applying the multiplier because it was too high and put Madoka well into 4-A, if not, 3-A, as a lowball. Even I plan to push back some 5-A Pokémon because they scale to a 5-B feat although their multiplier makes the most sense out of all of them.

      ...you piqued my interest there. Why don’t you like the Pokegods being so powerful?

      Also, Broly FRA.

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    • Yes I know it's an outlier. The entire Future Trunks arc was horrible powerscaling wise.

      Anyways I vote for Broly by reactive evolution

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    • I honestly think Pokemon is 2-A because mirror cave but that's debunkec/disagreed with

      Broly fra

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    • Only the last few episodes of the Future Trunks Saga had really bad powerscaling. The earlier episodes we’re actually quite consistent other than in a few scenes.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Not my fault they don’t have feats backing it up.

      ABC logic applies to everything, not just DB. DB gets enough special treatment as it is.

      No, because Goku scales to feats far above Raditz due to being tier 4, and more importantly, Nappa was stomping multiple people who are each on Raditz’s level casually.

      Again, Meth’s mindhax is just that high. They’re different cases.

      You see how characters can scale to higher tiers when the range of the tier isn't infinite. You see how this isn't possible when said tier is infinite.

      And what?

      You literally said that Meth's AP multiplier was disregarded due to being ridiculously big, not the fact that it was an outlier, but you have no problem when the same multiplier comes to mind hax because it is "just that high"?

      That's a double standard.

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    • Tbh I have no idea why Kefla is Low 2-C but SSB vegito is not

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    • I don't like things I find stupid and for kids being so stupidly powerful for no good reason.

      Digimon, Pokemon, et cetera.

      But reality doesn't bend to my will. So I ignore it.

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    • Kefla scales to a Low 2-C and her fusee Kale scales to a much stronger Goku who can defeat both Vegeta and himself from the previous arc by himself due to how much stronger he’s gotten.

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    • Edited my comment.

      Except none of these characters have jumped tiers. Not without feats at least.

      No, I explicitly said that Meth doesn’t need a multiplier to have the best 3-D mindhax. His feat is all the darkness that has, does, and ever will exist. Nothing can top that. Not Sailor Moon, not Star Wars, nothing. I couldn’t care less about a multiplier, as no matter what it is, it makes an already stupid and Suggs-y feat even more stupid and Suggs-y.

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    • Warren Valion wrote: I don't like things I find stupid and for kids being so stupidly powerful for no good reason.

      Digimon, Pokemon, et cetera.

      But reality doesn't bend to my will. So I ignore it.

      Does that mean you don’t like Pokémon, Digimon, and etc.?

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    • JackJoyce wrote: Tbh I have no idea why Kefla is Low 2-C but SSB vegito is not

      Why are you comparing Kefla to Vegito? Kefla scales to a Low 2-C feat, and the character got a lot stronger between arcs.


      Hell, that's actual proof the difference between the characters.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Edited my comment.

      Except none of these characters have jumped tiers. Not without feats at least.

      No, I explicitly said that Meth doesn’t need a multiplier to have the best 3-D mindhax. His feat is all the darkness that has, does, and ever will exist. Nothing can top that. Not Sailor Moon, not Star Wars, nothing. I couldn’t care less about a multiplier, as no matter what it is, it makes an already stupid and Suggs-y feat even more stupid and Suggs-y.

      What are you talking about?

      Meth's mind hax comes from humanity's fear of the dark from the beginning of time to the present day (including all of Merc's resets), not that he is "the darkness of all time" including the future.

      Where did you get this? It's the at least decillions reset multiplier that makes Meth's mindhax the best 3-D mindhax on the wiki.

      Did you compare Dies Irae to Suggsverse? Those are fighting words, Catboi.

      And yeah, I don't like Pokemon and Digimon and other verses like it. Problem?

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    • Peter1129 wrote: Kefla scales to a Low 2-C and her fusee Kale scales to a much stronger Goku who can defeat both Vegeta and himself from the previous arc by himself due to how much stronger he’s gotten.

      Yet Gohan can keep up with TOP Goku by just training a day LMAO

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    • Nah, no problem. It’s understandable that people don’t like Pokemon and Digimon.

      Even then, Meth’s mindhax beats out everything. Also, about the reset multiplier, we don’t fully disregard it. Meth and those who scale are considered the strongest 5-B due to it despite coming from a baseline 5-B statement. That mostly comes from the fact that it’s not a real multiplier. And what’s that “decillions” thing about?

      It was. It would’ve inspired Lionel instead of GetBackers if it existed at the time. Fite this catboi.

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    • JackJoyce wrote: Yet Gohan can keep up with TOP Goku by just training a day LMAO

      Hey at least it’s not like the manga where Gohan surpasses Goku and could tie with Kefla after a day of training.

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    • JackJoyce wrote: Yet Gohan can keep up with TOP Goku by just training a day LMAO

      Gohan went from 4-B to 3-A in like a day, Lmao.

      DBS is so stupid.

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    • Trunks went from High 4-C to 3-A via achieving a 4-B (w/o god ki) transformation.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: And what’s that “decillions” thing about?

      It was. It would’ve inspired Lionel instead of GetBackers if it existed at the time. Fite this catboi.

      At the end of the universes time, Merc resets time back to the Big Bang as according to his Law. His law makes the multiverse repeat endlessly. Merc has done this so many fucking times that he lost count after a decillion, so the multiplier could be even bigger.

      And I've almost killed my sister for making me less angry then you have, I will Liam Neeson from Taken your ass straight into Lucifer's chambers, don't test me catboi, Suggs is too illiterate to read Dies Irae prologue, so he couldn't wank.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      The strongest Dragon Ball 3-As are in the billions or trillions via sheer scaling and multipliers though.

      To be fair.  millions of times Baseline can be done :p

      Goku (Broly-arc) > (over 20x, assume 40x) Goku (post-UIS2) > (likely over tens of times) Goku (post-UIS1) > (2-4x) Goku (pre-UIS) > (40x) Goku (Zamasu-arc) > (likely tens of times) SSJG Goku (BoG) = 5x Baseline. 

      Base Goku = somewhat over 1,600,000x Baseline 3-A doesn't look too bad lol. 

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    • You didn’t have to quote the whole thing lol

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    • Broly fra

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    • Didnt watch the movie yet, Does Broly stronger then ssgss gogeta?

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    • BenAttackX wrote:
      Didnt watch the movie yet, Does Broly stronger then ssgss gogeta?

      >SSGSS 

      Been a long time since I saw that.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:

      Thing is SSG Goku is 2x baseline 3-A. SS1 Goku after absorbing SSG is at least 4x baseline 3-A. Base Goku after breaking his limits is at least 8x baseline 3-A. So you have to apply the multipliers starting from base instead of SSG. Also you missed some power ups in between sagas in your scaling chain.

      Also we only need one more vote for Broly before grace period.

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    • Also... To prove that the UI increases are rather ridiculous:

      A weakened Base Goku (Post UIO Goku) tanked a direct assault from Jiren and atated he never got hit with a attack like that .... But managed to get up after it with little to no scars ( Even after fighting Kefla and Jiren previously using UIO 1st, which should prove the power increases every UI + zenkai are insane).

      Anyways... Broly is likely stronger due to scaling from Post-ToP Base Base Vegeta ,and this Vegito is known to be arrogant. So even if Vegito is stronger, Broly would eventually overwhelm him, if not stomp him a few minutes into the fight.

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    • Broly FRA

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    • We're did x40 multipler come from?

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    • SS1 isn’t accepted as 50x. Instead it’s accepted as 40x scaling from 100% Frieza being 2x stronger than 50% Frieza who is equal to KKx20.

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    • Vegito takes it easily. Broly was quite a lot stronger than SSJ Vegeta. Meanwhile, Base Vegito was way stronger than both SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta put together.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Jin Mo-Ri goes from High 5-A to possibly 4-A based on multipliers alone, obviously this is because the level of scrutiny for that profile isn't as high as other verses.

      that's tangentially related to the topic though, legitimately, for out of universe battles we can only assume high end DB characters (that aren't low 2-C) to be 400x~800x (thanks to double 20x kaioken stack fromm SSBKK20) above Base Goku's intial 5x baseline 3-A feat, because those are the accepted multipliers.

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    • @Sptflcrw  Though, Base Broly scales to a Vegeta much stronger than the one Base/SSJB Vegito scales to. I think I gonna need a bit more reasoning to count your vote.

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    • @AguilaR101 End of Battle of Gods Base Goku is 8x baseline 3-A not 5x baseline 3-A. Also there are a lot more power boosts and multipliers in between sagas. So no matter what you do the strongest 3-As of DBS would be around millions of times baseline 3-A.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      @Sptflcrw 

      Though, Base Broly scales to a Vegeta much stronger than the one Base/SSJB Vegito scales to. I think I gonna need a bit more reasoning to count your vote.

      It's absurd to believe that ToP SSJ Vegeta is anywhere even close to Goku Black SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta combined. 

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    • @Sptflcrw Read this

      Peter1129 wrote: So the scaling for both goes like this.

      Base Vegito = (Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku + Future Trunks Saga SSB Vegeta) x 20-100. And now you stack the transformations on top of him.

      Base Broly is somewhere between much weaker than Post-ToP SSG Vegeta and much stronger than Post-ToP SS1 Vegeta who is 40x stronger than Post-ToP Base Vegeta who should be comparable to Post-ToP Base Goku who is stronger than Pre-UIS SSBKK Goku who is 2x-20x stronger than Pre-UIS SSB Goku who is 40x stronger than Pre-UIS SSG Goku who is stronger than Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      @AguilaR101 End of Battle of Gods Base Goku is 8x baseline 3-A not 5x baseline 3-A. Also there are a lot more power boosts and multipliers in between sagas. So no matter what you do the strongest 3-As of DBS would be around millions of times baseline 3-A.

      No they wouldn't lol.

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    • Sptflcrw wrote:
      Omegas03 wrote:
      @Sptflcrw 

      Though, Base Broly scales to a Vegeta much stronger than the one Base/SSJB Vegito scales to. I think I gonna need a bit more reasoning to count your vote.

      It's absurd to believe that ToP SSJ Vegeta is anywhere even close to Goku Black SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta combined. 

      I mean Merged Zamasu kept up with that Vegito, traded blows with him and tanked his final kamehameha. He is pretty irrelevant power wise

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    • What's UIS? I 

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    • Ultra Instinct Sign

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    • Ultra Instinct -sign-

      Post-ToP Base saiyans are much stronger because an Weakened Goku outperformed Golden Freeza and Android 17 who are SSJB Goku (pre-UIS) level or higher.

      EDIT:  Ninja'd

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      Ultra Instinct -sign-

      Post-ToP Base saiyans are much stronger because an Weakened Goku outperformed Golden Freeza and Android 17 who are SSJB Goku (pre-UIS) level or higher.

      EDIT:  Ninja'd

      lol that's horseshit. He didn't outperform them, not to mention the fact that Goku used SSJ in that fight. Plus, Frieza was weakened and was in base, and 17 didn't do anything besides shoot like, 2 ki blasts during that fight.

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    • Post-UI Base Goku stopped Jiren blast that overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17 by himself after their barrier shattered. The fight later on where Base Frieza kept up with him is an severe outlier.

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    • Because the barrier, Frieza, and 17 weakened the blast beforehand. 

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    • Base Goku went in and overpowered the same blast that had Golden Freeza and 17 in a hurry.

      Goku also fought in equal terms against Jiren with some help, meanwhile 17 in the first half of the fight got overpowered quickly meaning Base Goku is at least stronger than 17 who is SSJB Goku (Pre-UIS) level. Also 17 yeah was just throwing blast because if he went against Jiren like Goku was doing he would have been overpowered quickly.

      Ninja'd^2

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    • How did you even come to that conclusion? Their barrier was broken it didn’t weaken at all since Jiren was still releasing energy at the time.

      @Omegas03 Android 17 is actually Pre-UIS SSBKK lvl going by his showing in the tournament.

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    • Omegas03 wrote: Ultra Instinct -sign-

      Post-ToP Base saiyans are much stronger because an Weakened Goku outperformed Golden Freeza and Android 17 who are SSJB Goku (pre-UIS) level or higher.

      EDIT:  Ninja'd

      Freeza and Jiren were severely weakened by the end for that interpretation to be valid in the slightest, even if you try to play "but 17 is blue level and has unlimited stamina" it's far more reasonable to assume the statement of him having unlimited stamina simply not being legitimate than assuming 2 other characters (who aren't saiyans) got such a massive boost after a beatdown.

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    • what has 17 done to show he's Pre-UIS SSJBKK level? his fight against Base Toppo?

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    • @Omegas03 He was able to damage Base Toppo who could no sell attacks from Ultimate Gohan who is Pre-UIS SSB lvl. He was also able to hold back Ultimate Gohan’s Kamehameha with one hand when he dropped his barrier after Toppo punched him.

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    • @AguilaR101

      So you are going to ignore the multiple statements of Androids having unlimited stamina just because you think the last fight in the series is illogical? doesn't make sense imo.

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    • No i'm willing to write off the scene and your interpretation of it as inconsistent like any reasonable person should, like you would write off the idea of wanking krillin to blue levels just because Goku felt the need to go into that form to overpower his KHH.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      @Omegas03 He was able to damage Base Toppo who could no sell attacks from Ultimate Gohan who is Pre-UIS SSB lvl. He was also able to hold back Ultimate Gohan’s Kamehameha with one hand when he dropped his barrier after Toppo punched him.

      17 is still considerably weaker than Base Toppo as he was getting overpowered a lot by him and was like avoiding him 90% of the fight. 

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      Post-UI Base Goku stopped Jiren blast that overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17 by himself after their barrier shattered. The fight later on where Base Frieza kept up with him is an severe outlier.

      lol how is that an outlier, yet a weak as shit base Goku being stronger than both Golden Frieza and Android 17 isn't an outlier? Actually stop.

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    • @AguilaR101 Jiren was severely weakened cause he was fighting non stop and took a beating from UI Goku however Frieza wasn’t. He wasn’t even fighting for a couple of minutes. And we know that Dragon Ball characters recover their stamina and strength insanely quickly. After all Goku regain his stamina in the tournament in a couple of minutes multiple times.

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    • Omegas03 wrote: 17 is still considerably weaker than Base Toppo as he was getting overpowered a lot by him and was like avoiding him 90% of the fight. 

      He wasn’t considerably weaker than Base Toppo. When Toppo decided to use his full power we see that 17 could hold it back in a Super Perfect Cell vs SS2 Gohan esque beam struggle which shows that he isn’t overwhelmingly weaker than Base Toppo.

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    • Sptflcrw wrote:
      Peter1129 wrote:
      Post-UI Base Goku stopped Jiren blast that overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17 by himself after their barrier shattered. The fight later on where Base Frieza kept up with him is an severe outlier.
      lol how is that an outlier, yet a weak as shit base Goku being stronger than both Golden Frieza and Android 17 isn't an outlier? Actually stop.

      Freeza is an outlier because he hasn't been shown to get any stronger throught the Tournament and remained Pre-UIS SSJB level in his Golden Form, so his Base Form doing better than his Golden (few moments prior) is clearly an outlier.

      Meanwhile Goku has been consistently shown to surpass his previous power level a lot throught the ToP. after each UIS activation he was stronger so his feats aren't outliers. Unless you want to say Weakened Post-UIS1 Goku fighting Caulifla and then both Caulifla and Kale are outliers too.

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    • @Sptflcrw It’s not an outlier because the UIS limit breaking boosts is a thing.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      @AguilaR101 Jiren was severely weakened cause he was fighting non stop and took a beating from UI Goku however Frieza wasn’t. He wasn’t even fighting for a couple of minutes. And we know that Dragon Ball characters recover their stamina and strength insanely quickly. After all Goku regain his stamina in the tournament in a couple of minutes multiple times.

      Frieza was literally knocked the fuck out by GoD Toppo. What do you mean he wasn't weakened?

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    • He got time to rest unlike Jiren and Goku who were fighting non stop.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:

      Freeza most certainly was, we aren't going to assume he recovered to full strength between scenes after taking a heavy beatdown from Toppo and Jiren, heck he literally loses the form mid fight indicating he is nowhere at full power. It's like you think that just because he has the form he is ought to be fighting at full capacity.

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    • AguilaR101 wrote:
      No i'm willing to write off the scene and your interpretation of it as inconsistent like any reasonable person should, like you would write off the idea of wanking krillin to blue levels just because Goku felt the need to go into that form to overpower his KHH.

      Except that was an sparring match and should by no means be compared to the last fight where Goku has been consistently shown to get stronger many times so his Base being comparable to his start of ToP SSJBKK level isn't far-fetched. I've thought of the whole Ep 131 being outlier the first times I saw it, though Goku has been getting stronger throught the whole ToP soo.. lol.

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    • He lost his Golden form because he was straining himself trying to put even more energy than he could into the barrier to hold back Jiren energy wave. He was perfectly capable of repeatedly going into Golden Form to fight his enemies after resting for a few minutes.

      Also Frieza doesn’t even matter that much cause Android 17 doesn’t get tired and Post-UI Base Goku was stronger than him.

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    • @Omegas03 To be fair Episode 131 is pretty much outlier galore with only one feat being legit.

      Outliers consist of Android 17 breaking his own Android Barrier which could no sell attacks from Anilaza and Base Frieza keeping up with an even stronger Jiren who overpowered his Golden form.

      Only Goku being stronger than Frieza and 17 is consistent due to UIS limit breaking boosts.

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    • Yeah, but Base Goku overpowering 17 isn't one of them. that was my point.

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    • You ninja’d me before my edit.

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    • I have literally no clue what all this semi frenzied discussion is about and I doubt I wanna even find out seeing how deeply derailed the whole thread is. A little tip, taking that elsewhere may be good because it's becoming more and more tangentially related to the match up. I even forgot for a moment this was related at all to Broly and Vegito.

      And my vote goes to Broly, unless his stated reasons where debunked at any moment and I couldn't see the justifications among the walls of chaining power growth and debate of unrelated things.

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    • Well the thread is mostly derailed because the match is pretty much over. Also the reasoning is my first reply which is also the second comment on the thread.

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    • It still feels that whatever this all was could have easily gone somewhere else.

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    • Well, the reason why Broly is winning is that of him scaling to Goku and Vegeta post ToP.

      If people argue the scaling is inaccurate, then the votes could have on the chance of being voided.

      So it is not derailing, it's on topic.

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    • It ended up discussing the validity of 17 and Freeza more than anything after the scaling chain was dropped, so... not really.

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    • My point is, saying that Post-ToP SSJ Vegeta >>>>> Goku Black Arc SSJBKKx10 and SSJB Vegeta combined is absurd.

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    • It’s not absurd at all. Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB Goku alone can defeat both End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta by himself.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      It’s not absurd at all. Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB Goku alone can defeat both End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku and SSB Vegeta by himself.

      That's bullshit. Literally nothing supporting that.

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    • Pre-UIS SSG Goku can keep up with Base Dyspo who was beating ToP Hit who stalemated End of Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku when he was weaker.

      So Pre-UIS SSG Goku > End of Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku

      Which means that Pre-UIS SSB Goku is at least 4x stronger than End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku

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    • At best that means ToP SSG Goku = Goku Black SSB Goku.

      No it doesn't. How did you get to that conclusion? Actually, I don't care how you got to it.

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    • @Sptf Then .. Why are you debating ? If you didn't care you wouldn't have gone this far and ended it the moment he made the statement. Even so that's incredibly disrespectful and won't gain you any points during the debate. 

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    • Sptflcrw wrote:
      At best that means ToP SSG Goku = Goku Black SSB Goku.

      No it doesn't. How did you get to that conclusion? Actually, I don't care how you got to it.

      Super Saiyan Blue is to Super Saiyan God what Super Saiyan is to Base.

      It's considered an at least 40x difference on the wiki.

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    • Wait a minute .... Couldn't you imply Post-UIO 2nd Base Goku > LSSJ2 Kefla ? After one of the LimIt Breaking Boosts he proceeded to, after being depowered to Base, being knocked around by multiple attacks which he stated outright to be stronger than anyone he fought prior, which would include LSSJ2 Kefla.  This is before UIO3rd, MUI , and Enraged MUI.... Which all gave him incredible power-ups ? Not to mention when he was barely weak enough to go super saiyan (which suggest at that moment he was far weaker in Base then he was back when he tanked the hit from Jiren, and would likely be much stronger after fully recovering from the Tournament of Power) , he held back the blast that overpowered Blue-Level Allies such as 17.

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    • Post-2nd UIS Base Goku being stronger than LSS2 Kefla via tanking attacks from Hint of True Power Jiren is definitely an outlier. He was getting beat up by this Jiren even while he was in Blue form. So him tanking attacks in base is definitely an outlier.

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    • Likely.... But anyways:

      SSJ1-2 Goku (Post-ToP) being > Pre-UI SSBKK Goku Level due to UIO3rd Boost being far more than merely a 40x boost is definitely believable. Toppo , Frieza , and even several characters felt Kale's power to be a threat [SSB Level characters], yet Base Goku took on SSJ2 Caulifilia in Base and actually was effecting her with his punches ,  Caulifilia and a Limit Broken Kale simultaneously while in SSJ2, made them fear his power by merely powering up to SSJ3 ,  and literally made her seem like a child as a SSG . This was after the first Ultra Instinct BTW, not the 2nd . Keep in mind the difference between SSJ2 and SSG to Blue is at bare minimum at a 80-100x increase without multipliers. 

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    • Post-UI Goku didn’t fight LSS1 Kale as a SS2 or SS3 though. He only fought SS1 Kale as a SS2 and SS3 than fought LSS2 Kale as a SSG.

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    • Okay. Thank you. But the point I'm making is that the power gained via each UIO boost is at bare minimum the equivalent of a Super Saiyan power-up, likely far more.

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    • But yeah anyway I agree. SSG being merely stronger SSB after the third Limit breaking boosts is a huge low ball consider how big the previous two were.

      The first one like you said is at least 80x-100x (depending on what the SS1 multiplier is) if not even higher scaling from Kale. The second one was double that since his SSBKK went from being almost as strong as the Spirit Bomb to being stronger than the Second UIS. So the third one logically should’ve been even bigger since not only did he break his limits with UIS but he also managed to tap into the Complete UI. Which means the third boost easily should’ve been the biggest out of all three of them.

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    • Peter1129 wrote: Thing is SSG Goku is 2x baseline 3-A. SS1 Goku after absorbing SSG is at least 4x baseline 3-A. Base Goku after breaking his limits is at least 8x baseline 3-A. So you have to apply the multipliers starting from base instead of SSG. Also you missed some power ups in between sagas in your scaling chain.

      Also we only need one more vote for Broly before grace period.

      Base Goku has been scratched by bullets, wounded by ray-guns. If he's 3-A then so is Cabba, Botamo from U6 Tournament Arc, SS2 Future Trunks in the second episode of Future Trunks Saga and pretty much everyone in the TOP

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    • Peter1129 wrote: @Omegas03 He was able to damage Base Toppo who could no sell attacks from Ultimate Gohan who is Pre-UIS SSB lvl. He was also able to hold back Ultimate Gohan’s Kamehameha with one hand when he dropped his barrier after Toppo punched him.

      Base Toppo was damaged by the combined effort of 17 and Golden Frieza

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    • Vegito Blue. In order for base Broly to be able to beat Vegito Blue, Vegito Blue would have to be weaker than base Gogeta. Potara is far superior to fusion dance, and SSB is obviously way way way better than base. It would take a very, very long time for Goku and Vegeta to improve so much that the base form of their fusion dance fusion can be stronger than an earlier version of their Potara fusion at full power. It hasn't even been two years since the Zamasu incident in-universe. I see no indication that their base forms are stronger now than their Blue forms were during the Zamasu arc.

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    • Potara superior to Fusion dance? You were living under a rock or what lol

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    • That was stated back in the Buu arc.

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    • It was never stated in what aspect it was superior and currently its only superior in time limit, even back then there were statements that said Gogeta and Vegetto are equal and both could win against eachother. 

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    • It's not even superior in time limit anymore. Potara defuses before 40 minutes in SSB

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    • I think there's not much to be said now, match is already over.

      Anyways, I expected Broly to win, but I thought this was going less decisive lol and more on par. Can't f**** believe how strong are Goku and Vegeta by this point of DBS.

      Anyways Imagine if Goku's Base form in the next arc surpasses Gogeta Blue lol.

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    • JackJoyce wrote: It's not even superior in time limit anymore. Potara defuses before 40 minutes in SSB

      Fusion also got undone before the time limit for Gotenks because "too much power", but Gogeta didn't have the problem.

      It's best not to use those instance as a guide.

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    • I think that Vegito Blue image in the OP is better than the game one which is currently in his profile. Do others also think the same?

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    • I actually really like that image, but the OP one would go along with the other drawn pics better.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      I think there's not much to be said now, match is already over.

      I expected Broly to win. Can't f**** believe how strong are Goku and Vegeta by this point of DBS.

      Anyways Imagine if Goku's Base form in the next arc surpasses Gogeta Blue lol.

      ^

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    • Jesus Christ I'm never going to understand the absurd scaling most of you guys use here. 

      This should be a One-sided stomp in favor of Vegetto but since this site is weird apparently Base Broly (1st appearance)>SSB Vegetto, Fused Zamasu, SSJ Kefla, Anilaza, SSJ Rose Goku Black, Base Toppo, Android 17, True Golden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ Rage Trunks (even with Sword of Hope), Future Zamasu, and Berserker Kale. All of this despite the fact Broly had no experience fighting or much training and wasn't regarded as much until he accessed his Ikari rage state. But obviously, Goku got millions of times more powerful between the Future Trunks Arc and Broly movie so that his current Base/Super Saiyan>Blue Vegetto. Obviously.

      Vote for Vegetto, not like it matters.

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    • Do you know what a Zenkai is?

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    • @SuperDragoon978 

      First of all this thread is long since over, you can't vote, secondly Vegetto being relevant outside just one episode is laughable to begin with since Trunks with the Spirit Sword is stronger. Third Broly scales to a ToP Goku who fought Jiren who while heavily supressed is stated stronger than Merged Zamasu who is comparable or stronger than Vegetto.

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    • The fact that Base Broly could take on Post-ToP SS1 Vegeta is enough to say he’s one of the strongest 3-As in Dragon Ball.

      Also we never said Post-ToP Base/SS1 > Future Trunks Saga Vegito. We just said they seem to be roughly even in AP due to multipliers and a rather large scaling chain. The reason Broly won was due to his zenkai boosts.

      Also the match is already over and added.

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    • SuperDragoon978 wrote:
      Jesus Christ I'm never going to understand the absurd scaling most of you guys use here. 

      This should be a One-sided stomp in favor of Vegetto but since this site is weird apparently Base Broly (1st appearance)>SSB Vegetto, Fused Zamasu, SSJ Kefla, Anilaza, SSJ Rose Goku Black, Base Toppo, Android 17, True Golden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ Rage Trunks (even with Sword of Hope), Future Zamasu, and Berserker Kale. All of this despite the fact Broly had no experience fighting or much training and wasn't regarded as much until he accessed his Ikari rage state. But obviously, Goku got millions of times more powerful between the Future Trunks Arc and Broly movie so that his current Base/Super Saiyan>Blue Vegetto. Obviously.

      Vote for Vegetto, not like it matters.

      I agree with you 200%. These people have no clue what they're talking about.

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    • Instead of antagonizing, can you ask for a explanation on why we use said scaling ?

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    • >Vegetto should be stomping Broly because i said so

      >Said Vegetto lost to Merged Zamasu who lost to Future Trunks with Spirit Sword who is fodder to heavily supressed Jiren

      Keep the meme up boys

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      >Vegetto should be stomping Broly because i said so

      >Said Vegetto lost to Merged Zamasu who lost to Future Trunks with Spirit Sword who is fodder to heavily supressed Jiren

      Keep the meme up boys

      Even if what you said was true, base Broly is below Merged Zamasu, Future Trunks w/sword and supressed Jiren.

      Hell, let's put it like this. How much stronger has Vegeta gotten since Vegito's appearance? He got a zenkai boost from after the Future Trunks arc, another one in the time chamber before ToP and another one after ToP, how much stronger he's gotten is unknown if at all considering what he said before the U6 tournament.

      "Three years? You'd really stay that long? What's the point in that? As far as I can tell we're near the limit of our strength, doesn't matter how long we train, we'll still only gain a little."

      You're telling me that those 3 boosts made SSJ Vegeta comparable to SSB Vegito? SSB Vegito is at least ten thousand times stronger than SSJ Vegeta of the same arc . Three boosts are not enough, not even close for him to be comparable in SSJ. Vegito SSB is roughly equal SSBE Vegeta post ToP, probably weaker.

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    • His Base was able to eventually able to force Vegeta to turn SSG n the span of a few minutes [ about 10 ] of fighting , which is only minimally weaker than SSB Vegeta who scales above Suppressed Jiren [ Durong his fight with UIO 1st Goku] by a crapton. He was not that much weaker and tanked a Fully Powered Blast from Vegeta. So he would be able to eventually edge it out that way ... And Vegito's cocky nature during the Trunks Arc would allow him ample time to do so.

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    • I skimmed through but maybe i missed stuff



      has anyone mentioned the fact Broly was fighting golden freeza for AN HOUR in the movie before Gogeta finally arrived? and when he did Freeza didnt even look particularly tired

      Broly is basically a berserker, meaning he's always fighting at absolute maximum potential trying his best to kill the opponent at all points. he was unable to do anything relevant to Freeza in an hour of doing that...thats an eternity for characters that move billions of times above lightspeed. its also more time than the entire Tournament of power...

      after seeing the movie, Broly didnt look particularly all that strong to me.he also tried to attack Whis at one point right before Gogeta arrived and Whis was just joking around. he never considered Broly even remotely threatening like he did with Jiren.( i've also seem ppl elsewhere suggesting Broly might be above Jiren which makes no sense.)



      is Vegitto Blue from Zamasu arc not all that much stronger than current golden Freeza? 

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    • Broly fighting Frieza for whole hour is just plot device to make funny fusions moments. Goku and Vegeta couldn't last for even 5 min against Broly and they had to run.

      Lol Whiss would school Jiren as well what is your point? Jiren was fighting his students while Broly was attacking Whiss himself.

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    • did they really "have" to run? or was that just Goku choosing the least risky option to take out an opponent with a dangerous perk or seemingly getting stronger as he fights? Goku never even tried Kaioken, Vegeta never used his royal blue or whatever that's called form. 

      aaand if you think Goku acting that way would be out of character, you could just as easily say the plot device was in the other direction. "freeza lasted an hour, Goku and vegeta running was just a plot device to get them to fuse because Gogeta is a fan favorite"

      theres no definitive way to prove it in either direction

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    • Actually Goku will very much dip if he figures they have no way to win. He even mentions that nothing that they try will work except Fusion. And that said Frieza was getting the crap kicked outta him for that hour. By the time Gogeta shows up he's stuck in a wall.

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    • Saitamax wrote: did they really "have" to run? or was that just Goku choosing the least risky option to take out an opponent with a dangerous perk or seemingly getting stronger as he fights? Goku never even tried Kaioken, Vegeta never used his royal blue or whatever that's called form. 

      aaand if you think Goku acting that way would be out of character, you could just as easily say the plot device was in the other direction. "freeza lasted an hour, Goku and vegeta running was just a plot device to get them to fuse because Gogeta is a fan favorite"

      theres no definitive way to prove it in either direction

      It's like you didn't even watch dragon ball at all.

      Goku is the type who ALWAYS try to enjoy the fight and push himself to the limit even when he's outclassed by his opponents. Even Piccolo said in the movie if Goku, of all people, want to escape then that means the situation is REALLY serious.

      Goku isn't an idiot he knows when he has no shot of victory, in fact, an argument can be made that Broly is stronger than Jiren because Jiren didn't make Goku consdier fusion "I am not this is the case, just taking example of how stupid this logic"

      Kaio-ken and SSBE are not in this movie because they are Toei original forms and this movie is written by Toriyama.

      No, You are the one who is assuming things that go directly against the narrative of the show. Goku tells you nothing will work on Broly aside from fusion, why are twisting the narrative here just to downplay Broly?

      >theres no definitive way to prove it in either direction

      No. The narrative is pretty clear here, Broly was out of Goku/Vegeta without fusion.

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    • Toei had 40+ episode to jerk off Jiren while Broly had only 40 min of screen time to be dealt with, and Toei kept using those anime original forms and make SSB look weak despite being very strong form.

      Of course Jiren has much better feats than Broly!

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    • Broly FRA.

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    • Just close this lol

      And if you can please add my vote too.

      Broly FRA

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    • Bump . While Jiren has the better feats... The fact Broly made Goku flee immediately when Jiren didn't is notable. Plus a couple statements stating superiority to Jiren ontop of this. And the fact Goku was thinking that nothing else sans fusion would work... So that's the reason they didn't use any higher forms of Goku waiting it out until Ultra Instinct showed up. The intent was obvious to make Broly far above Jiren.

      Sorry... Rambling  Broly should win this comfortably via Vegito's character (if he's weaker by a substantial margin), and Vegito not noticing Broly's a credible threat until it's too late.

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    • ok i watched the movie again , some important details



      1) Goku's initial plan was not fusion, he never even considered fusion until Piccolo told him he had no senzu. at that point he stopped for a few seconds, thought to himself, and was "oh yeah, fusion!". this means Goku believed they could have won just eating senzu and coming back

      2) at the very end of the movie, Goku states this about Broly  "He's a saiyan like me but probably stronger than Beerus". this might sound great, but this is actually a pretty bad statement for Broly. Goku only ever fought or even saw Beerus in combat while Beerus was using like what, 5% of his power?  to this day Goku still doesn't know that Beerus was holding back that much in their fight. the Beerus he's comparing Broly to is an ultra nerfed version. if hes not even sure (he says "probably") that Broly is stronger than that Beerus, you can see how thats not great for Broly

      3) Broly never flat out stomped SSB Goku and vegeta (like Jiren did in some instances, for example). they fought for a quick while, Broly got the upper hand then Goku retreated for senzu beams. that quick exchange doesn't work to say Broly was a million times stronger than Goku/Vegeta. especially since Goku planned on coming back. so the fact is, Broly being clearly way stronger, but still unable to kill Golden Freeza in that one hour, doesn't necessarily contradict anything. it might be verging on it though.

      lastly, to answer the post above,  i dont think there was any intent to make Broly seem stronger than Jiren. again, just look at Whis (and Beerus, at the end of the movie we see he had been following the fight as well) reactions to Broly. they never cared about Broly. Jiren's power made them look worried at points, Beerus straight up looked desperate in some instances. for Broly he remained relaxed taking care of Bra the whole time and just said "looks like they did it" in the end, and went back to taking his nap.

      that sort of thing doesn't prove anything of course, thats not what i'm saying. its just that, if were arguing "intent", the intent certainly seems to be to make it look like Whis/Beerus didnt give a rat's ass about Broly while being bewildered by Jiren

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    • I don't agree with most of your points. 

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    • Bump. Neither do I honestly .  

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    • points 1 and 2 arent really opinions, its just what happened in the movie. Goku teleported to get senzu, not to fuse. and he did make that exact statement comparing Broly to Beerus in the end of the movie.



      unless Goku is really bad at gauging powers that means Broly is nowhere near Jiren who was said by whis to be possibly above god of destruction level in his base form. (and Whis knows Beerus's full potential unlike Goku)



      i'm not gonna argue for Vegito anyways, DBS does have pretty insane power jumps from arc to arc so Broly probably beats him now that i've thought about it some more. 

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    • I'm still wondering if we can even take that statement seriously about Goku's comparison to Beerus ? 

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote: Bump . While Jiren has the better feats... The fact Broly made Goku flee immediately when Jiren didn't is notable. Plus a couple statements stating superiority to Jiren ontop of this. And the fact Goku was thinking that nothing else sans fusion would work... So that's the reason they didn't use any higher forms of Goku waiting it out until Ultra Instinct showed up. The intent was obvious to make Broly far above Jiren.

      Sorry... Rambling  Broly should win this comfortably via Vegito's character (if he's weaker by a substantial margin), and Vegito not noticing Broly's a credible threat until it's too late.

      That's naive. Do you expect Goku to flee when his entire universe was threatened? Also they escaped multiple times from Black. That doesn't means Black is stronger than Jiren.

      Ultra Instinct is an unreliable technique as mentioned in the manga. Which is the reason why Goku thought about fusion alongside the purpose of the plot per se

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    • This is silly. I can't believe there are people who think ToP SSJ Vegeta >>>>>>>> Black Arc SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta combined. That's absurd.

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    • Yeah, there is no way that they could have increased that much in such a shot amount of time.

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    • Exactly my point. Broly in base is stronger than SSJ Vegeta (Post-ToP). Base Vegito is way stronger than SSBx20 Goku and SSB Vegeta (Goku Black Arc) combined. And SSB Vegito is way stronger than base Vegito.

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    • Sptflcrw wrote:
      This is silly. I can't believe there are people who think ToP SSJ Vegeta >>>>>>>> Black Arc SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta combined. That's absurd.

      Wait they say that?

      Tho i voted broly that is just ridiculous.

      Post-ToP maybe but ToP ssj vegeta is no way stronger then future arc ssb goku and vegeta combine

      ToP vegeta only touch jiren when he is using ssb and only touch.

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    • LightinAnt wrote:
      >Vegetto should be stomping Broly because i said so

      >Said Vegetto lost to Merged Zamasu who lost to Future Trunks with Spirit Sword who is fodder to heavily supressed Jiren

      Keep the meme up boys

      Fucking base broly is fodder to heavily supressed jiren, what's your point?

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    • This match is pretty random tbh.

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    • Can we just add the result and make another thread to talk about this?

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    • No, this is relevant.

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    • What is the point? 

      24 hours rule already done. The debate above it just going in the circle.

      There is no way feat of overpower post-ToP SSG vegeta and Goku is that much lower then Vegito blue power 

      And don't forget about broly grow rate too, hack! even after Goku goes SSB Broly still can keep up him even tho he losing.

      Just accept it that Broly grow rate is insane and the reason he going to win is because of it.

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    • And just take a look at the profile! The result is already added!

      I'm not saying that the debate unnecessary but.....come on man this is VS thread! This thread is for vote and debate about who win in this fight and we already has QnA thread + CR thread for this stuffs. Just go there instead.

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    • The point is that this match is faulty. 

      It doesn't matter if 24 hours have passed. Most of Broly's votes are faulty. 

      What? I can't even read what you're saying.

      Broly wasn't losing to SSB Goku. They were evenly matched.

      His "grow rate" is impressive, but his base form isn't strong enough to keep up with Vegito.

      It shouldn't have been added to the profile.

      That's not what those threads are for. 

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    • Broly's votes are faulty. SSB Vegito takes this very decively. People are overplaying Broly to an absurd degree. Broly is equal to Broly Saga SSJ Vegeta. Broly Saga SSJ Vegeta is slightly stronger than Post ToP Vegeta who is much stronger than ToP Vegeta who is stronger than Goku Black Saga SSJ Vegeta. Let's be generous and say Broly Saga SSJ Vegeta = Goku Black Saga SSG Vegeta. SSB Vegito on the other hand, was stronger than Fusion Zamasu, who effortlessly overpowered SSB Vegeta (Stronger than SSG Vegeta), SSB Goku (Equal to SSB Vegeta), and SS2 Future Trunks (Somewhat comparable to SSB Vegeta) all at once. Vegito has quite a large power advantage. Combine that with more abilities and skills, and Vegito wins quite easily.

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    • In fact, Post-ToP Vegeta is equal to Post-ToP Goku, who is stronger or at least relative to Post 2nd UIS Goku, who is stronger than Base Vegetto who is stronger than SSJBKKx10 Goku (Black-arc) going by fusion statements.

      both have different scalings:

      SSJB Vegito >/< Fusion Zamasu >>>> SSJG, SSJ3, 2 and 1 Vegito > Base Vegito >>> SSJBKKx10 Goku (Black-arc).

      Base Broly >/= SSJ Vegeta (post-ToP) >>> Base Vegeta >(or at least =) Base Goku (post-2nd UIS) >>> Base Vegito (Black-arc)

      both are kinda comparable in tbh.

      And imo there's no point arguing over this since it has already been added to Broly's profile. just need someone to add it to Vegito's.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      In fact, Post-ToP Vegeta is equal to Post-ToP Goku, who is stronger or at least relative to Post 2nd UIS Goku, who is stronger than Base Vegetto who is stronger than SSJBKKx10 Goku (Black-arc) going by fusion statements.

      both have different scalings:

      SSJB Vegito >/< Fusion Zamasu >>>> SSJG, SSJ3, 2 and 1 Vegito > Base Vegito >>> SSJBKKx10 Goku (Black-arc).

      Base Broly >/= SSJ Vegeta (post-ToP) >>> Base Vegeta >(or at least =) Base Goku (post-2nd UIS) >>> Base Vegito (Black-arc)

      both are kinda comparable in tbh.

      And imo there's no point arguing over this since it has already been added to Broly's profile. just need someone to add it to Vegito's.

      Just ask admin

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    • Cal is 100% correct. The Dragon Ball Fanbase needs to stop being so obssessed with scaling chains and multipliers and numerically quantifying everything, because it gets ridiculous.

      The best you can say about Dragon Ball characters without getting into the comically absurd it's that they're immensely above baseline 3-A down to an unquantifiable amount. That's it.

      Arbitrary Multipliers for Training Boosts, Transformation Boosts, Zenkai Boosts and what have you are not canon, and are not valid ways of debating. Get your mind out of the Seth gutter.

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    • Also, Vegito wins easily. The notion that Base is stronger than Vegito Blue is absolutely inane and based purely on headcanon multipliers going around on this thread.

      But Broly is the new hot sensation in the Dragon Ball Setting so we gotta ride him..

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    • Cal is 100% correct. The Dragon Ball Fanbase needs to stop being so obssessed with scaling chains and multipliers and numerically quantifying everything, because it gets ridiculous.


      Tbh I think this is an issue with chain scaling in general. People seem to think that having chain scaling makes you like 2-5 times stronger, despite even with the biggest chain scaling they'd only be stronger by an unknown amount.

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    • Yup, that's exactly a problem.

      They think that everytim a character beats another decisively they must be twice, thrice, or ten times as stronger, or some even higher number. "This guy one-shot the other, he must be a hundred times stronger!"

      That's not how it works. Literally the energy gap (in Joules) between what's produced by an average human standing still and the most energetic punch ever recorded to have been thrown by a heavyweight professional fighter in history, a punch which would literally kill any of us here were it hit in the head with it... is about 15 times.

      You don't need to be so astronomically stronger than your opponent to stomp them.

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    • " The best you can say about Dragon Ball characters without getting into the comically absurd it's that they're immensely above baseline 3-A down to an unquantifiable amount. That's it."

      What's the difference between immensely unquantifiable and unquantifiable?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Also, Vegito wins easily. The notion that Base is stronger than Vegito Blue is absolutely inane and based purely on headcanon multipliers going around on this thread.

      But Broly is the new hot sensation in the Dragon Ball Setting so we gotta ride him..

      I mean, both scale by being hilariously above Black-arc Super Saiyan Blue (and even SSJBKK) and the main reason people really voted for Broly was via RE and not because he started with higher AP. But I see the point on the people who think Broly would win this.

      btw, you may think scaling is the wrong way to decide this match but I believe Vegito is far more impressive in that and more and thus I think he wins (Tho I can't vote lol)

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    • @Matthew So what you’re saying is ignore all the power ups Goku and co have gained throughout the series even if it’s blatantly shown that Goku’s SSG form from the next arc is comparable to his SSB form from the previous arc which was shown to be comparable to his SSBKKx10 form from the arc before this. And also ignore all the multipliers even the ones accepted on the site such as Kaioken multipliers and SS1 being 40x base merely because otherwise the numbers get absurd?

      Cause that’s what I’m getting when you said the multiplier scaling gained from training boosts, transformation boosts, and zenkai boosts are not canon and are not valid ways of debating. Even though powerscaling is the main form of debate for series like Dragon Ball which focuses mostly on raw power.

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    • No, it's not blatantly shown. And a lot of it is still speculation, I'm sorry.

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    • None of it is speculation. Almost all of his boosts are really blatant.

      After the Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku stalemates Hit who became even stronger than when he stalemated SSBKKx10 Goku in the U6 Tournament Saga.

      By the Universe Survival Saga before any limit break boost his SSG form is able to keep up with Base Dyspo who was initially overpowering an even stronger Hit.

      After the first limit break boost he was shown to be able to keep up with and even somewhat injure LSS1 Kefla who was stated by Whis to be on par with the U7 Spirit Bomb with SSBKK.

      After the second limit break boost he was able to keep up with Casual Jiren who is stronger than the First UIS and push him into using a hint of his true power with just SSB.

      All of these are pretty blatant power boosts. None of them are speculation. Most of these stuff are already mentioned on his profile.

      Speculation is something like Future Trunks Saga Vegito being comparable to Kefla even though he doesn’t have any characters from the ToP to scale to.

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    • Peter, shut up. Stop it with your scaling chain bullshit. SSB Vegito is stronger than Broly Saga SSJ Vegeta. 

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    • Future trunks arc vegeta x goku plus whatever multiplier you wanna say ssb is you're saying that it's stronger than post top vegeta with all of the zenkais and power ups gained in the top alone note that vegeta went from being on par with base Toppo to stomping g.o.d Toppo in that same tournament 

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    • Vegito should take this. Broly is only around SSJ - SSJ2 Post ToP Vegeta with his base form. Vegito Blue should be easily x50 times that.

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    • Paul Frank wrote:
      Future trunks arc vegeta x goku plus whatever multiplier you wanna say ssb is you're saying that it's stronger than post top vegeta with all of the zenkais and power ups gained in the top alone note that vegeta went from being on par with base Toppo to stomping g.o.d Toppo in that same tournament 

      Vegeta gained a grand total of zero zenkais during the tournament. He had 1 power-up, and that was temporary. SSJ Vegeta was never comparable to Toppo, nor did Vegeta stomp GoD Toppo at all. 

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    • IkaniL wrote:
      Vegito should take this. Broly is only around SSJ - SSJ2 Post ToP Vegeta with his base form. Vegito Blue should be easily x50 times that.

      Vegito blue from the zamasu arc is 50x a significantly stronger vegeta? 

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    • Yes. He is. 

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    • Do you just completely disregard all power ups zenkais and multipliers?

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    • Switching over to Vegito low-diff FRA, btw.

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    • I mean, are we doing this again or what? lol.

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    • Vegito fra.

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    • Well the match was already over and has been added a long time ago. So this thread needs to be closed and if people want to remake the match they’ll have to make a new thread. Since I’m pretty sure you can’t restart an entire thread after it has already ended over a month ago.

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    • The thread is already done 

      I don't understand why people refuse to accept the power increases that characters have between after and even during arcs

      Potara fusion is the power of character a times character b 

      Add on ssb idk what kind of multiplier you want to use for that because apparently everything sans kaioken is absurd and headcanon 

      So you are saying Future trunks arc vegeta times future trunks arc Goku plus supersaiyan blue is stronger than a character who caused post TOP vegeta to go super saiyan god 

      Let me note that during the top vegeta went from being smacked around to stomping god of destruction Toppo 

      So going off the logic that vegito blue is stronger than broly we get

      Vegito blue from the future trunks arc>broly>post top vegeta= post top goku>limit breaker jiren>100% jiren>ssbe vegeta>g.o.d toppo

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    • >Vegeta

      >Stomped GoD Toppo

      >Had to use a move that literally killed him before to win

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    • This should just be closed.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      >Vegeta

      >Stomped GoD Toppo

      >Had to use a move that literally killed him before to win

      He was stronger and had better ki control so the move wouldn't kill him 

      final explosion not being final was kinda dumb but ya know welcome to db

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    • How about this?

      So from what i see here

      Both are incharacter and Not bloodlust

      How can you be so sure that Vegito will not play around with Broly? (note that unlike Buu and Zamasu, Broly are good person going to wrong path)

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