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  • speed equal



    who wins?



    Jiren is at casual base

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    • The Old Thread keeps talking about Jiren's glare. How does it work?

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    • He glares at something and that thing gets wrecked. Be it a Spirit Bomb or a person, doesn't matter.

      Seriously.

      That's it.

      It even works on people his level (Ultra Instinct Goku, SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku and Royal Blue Vegeta). Without UI, Goku could've never seen the attack and this attack wrecked both Goku and Vegeta otherwise.

      We don't even know if it's really a Ki attack since Goku never even tried using Ki Detection to try and dodge it; mostly because he couldn't really since it's literally just a "I look at you, you're hit" attack that doesn't need any hand movements of anything to perform.

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    • So he can blitz with speed=ization... If he opens with it then I'd say it's a stopm. Eclipsa's durability comes form spells - Star  in her 2-C form was voulnable to suprize atacks(the sleepwalking episode).

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    • Speed equalization

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    • Yeah, Jiren literally just glares harshly at Eclipsa and she just dies.

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    • Eclipsa can counter glare with one of her spells.

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    • Inksaness wrote:
      Eclipsa can counter glare with one of her spells.

      How is she going to see it coming

      Besides, due to Eclipsa's physical stats, she's gonna die even from getting close to Jiren

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    • Inksaness wrote: Eclipsa can counter glare with one of her spells.

      You know that she has to chant spell and wave wand while he already glares. Speed=ization isn't enough.

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    • Her spells requires her to... actually cast it.

      Jiren literally needs to look at her hard enough and she pops like a balloon. 

      Also yeah, Jiren's mere presence was causing Goku to poop himself despite being Low 2-C himself at the time. And this is Limit Breaker Jiren, a jiren stronger than 100% Jiren. 

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    • Akreious wrote:
      Her spells requires her to... actually cast it.

      Jiren literally needs to look at her hard enough and she pops like a balloon. 

      Also yeah, Jiren's mere presence was causing Goku to poop himself despite being Low 2-C himself at the time. And this is Limit Breaker Jiren, a jiren stronger than 100% Jiren. 

      this is base jiren

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    • Not when you originally created the thread it wasn't.

      Also there's no "base", Jiren's "percentages" are all base form and he was casual up until he showed a small glimpse of his true power.

      So, still a stomp.

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    • Jiren never leads with glare though.

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    • GyroNutz wrote:
      Jiren never leads with glare though.

      what does he use thogh?

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    • CQC or that one ki blast attack he used on Kale + Hit, and I think Goku

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    • The same people arguing, and I don't think any of you make a good case. We needo more people here.

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    • GyroNutz wrote:
      Jiren never leads with glare though.

      Uhhh.

      Really?

      He's pretty spammy with it. The only reason why he never uses it more against Goku or Vegeta is because he downright says he respects them as warriors and fighters later on.

      Hit was annoying to deal with since he had Timeskip and Timecage, which Jiren immediately glared after the latter.

      So I'd say he's pretty good. Especially since this is a willing to kill match with no "No Killing" rule applied.

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    • Akreious wrote:
      GyroNutz wrote:
      Jiren never leads with glare though.
      Uhhh.

      Really?

      He's pretty spammy with it. The only reason why he never uses it more against Goku or Vegeta is because he downright says he respects them as warriors and fighters later on.

      Hit was annoying to deal with since he had Timeskip and Timecage, which Jiren immediately glared after the latter.

      Yes really. Legit none of those glares were a leading move, except maybe the glare he used vs Android 17's energy blast, but that wasn't even used offensively. If anything, that proves that he won't lead with glare.

      First thing is headcanon; he doesn't use it any less frequently when he started to respect Goku and Vegeta than when he didn't care about them. None of those reasons show why Jiren would lead with glare.

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    • Eclipsa as shown in her fight with Meteora leads with energy blasts, then Dark Velvet inferno which from what's implied would of erased Meteora from existence but she was just aged down, either one would incapcitate Jiren(assuming he doesn't glare immedieatly after).

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    • SansTheSkeleton101 wrote:
      Eclipsa as shown in her fight with Meteora leads with energy blasts, then Dark Velvet inferno which from what's implied would of erased Meteora from existence but she was just aged down, either one would incapcitate Jiren(assuming he doesn't glare immedieatly after).

      he uses glare defensibly so...

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    • Has his glare shown to take down age manipulation?

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    • how does the age manipulation work?

      As in, how effective is it

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    • SansTheSkeleton101 wrote:
      Eclipsa as shown in her fight with Meteora leads with energy blasts, then Dark Velvet inferno which from what's implied would of erased Meteora from existence but she was just aged down to an infant, either one would incapcitate Jiren(assuming he doesn't glare immedieatly after).
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    • Either way it should incap Jiren ig, if it's based off of a projectile or something similar then yes it can be glared away, otherwise he's being affected by it

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    • Dark Velvet puts him in a sphere and isn't a blast of energy.

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    • Couldn't he just... glare the sphere?

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    • You said he can glare away projectiles, where has he shown to do that to sphere type attacks? Also have we even reached a conclusion on whether or not Jiren's strength is stronger then Eclipsa's magic? Cause if it is this thread should be closed purely due to being a stomp.

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    • Ki blasts are pretty spherical, he glares those away pretty quickly. Does any of Eclipsa’s hax not involve a beam/projectile?

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    • Ki blassts are listed under energy projection, I don't see how trapping him in a sphere is a beam/projectile attack.

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    • Oh, that’s what you mean. Sounds like it acts the same way as one of Jiren’s own attacks. Which means he probably should have a defence to it but hasn’t been shown to.

      Does the sphere have travel time?

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    • No I think it's originally meant to erase Meteora from existence but it ended up de-aging her infant.

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    • Eclipsa can just change bodies with Jiren and gg

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    • That's necro.

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    • Year's Necro. FFS.

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    • sorry that this is necro

      but Jiren AP stomps cause he's WAAAAY above baseline while Eclipsa is just above baseline. He can just glare through projectiles and shields and whatnot

      plus he starts with glare, which is instant gg

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    • When has he glared away shields and EE/de-aging spheres?

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:
      When has he glared away shields and EE/de-aging spheres?

      1. I never said he could glare away shields, but obviousl he would be able to glare/break THROUGH much weaker shields, right? and 2. he glared away the Spirit Bomb, so I don't see why it can't glare away other projectiles. Then again, I have no idea about how the Age Spheres or whatever you call them work, so don't quote me on that one.

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    • Spirit Bomb isn't a shield, a shield isn't a projectile.

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:
      Spirit Bomb isn't a shield, a shield isn't a projectile.

      A Shield is in function no different from a Projectile. It's just that one is formed to be static and defend and the other moves and explodes or something. The result is the same; both is a physical thing that either impedes or damages a thing. A Shield to a Bullet is no different from A Bullet to a Bullet (If they meet mid-air somehow). 

      EE/De-Aging Spheres definitely sounds like it's a projectile and can be activated pre-maturely by Jiren... glaring. You'll have to prove that these Spheres ignore other projectiles or physical objects, and I sincerely doubt that. 

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    • https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shield

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/projectile

      Idk where you're getting your info from but that's objectively false. A shield to a bullet is stupidly different from a bullet to a bullet.

      It's not a projectile as explained. The very basis of what a shield is supposed to do goes against your claims. 

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shield

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/projectile

      Idk where you're getting your info from but that's objectively false. A shield to a bullet is stupidly different from a bullet to a bullet.

      It's not a projectile as explained. The very basis of what a shield is supposed to do goes against your claims. 

      You're literally saying Jiren can't glare at something because it's called something else. 

      No, your entire argument is based around the fact that a Shield is a completely different form of matter from a Bullet.

      If Jiren can glare a wall open, he can glare a shield open. If Jiren can glare energy beams apart, he can glare energy shields apart. They're made of the same damn things! 

      And if Eclipsa's Balls are shown to interact with physical matter, it will react to Jiren's Glare as it too reacts with physical matter.

      In the realm of Matter and Energy, it literally does not matter what you're called. 

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    • That's not the argument I made whatsoever, both definitions clearly show that they're not remotely the same thing.

      Yes, cause it is. A bullet is and a magical shield are two completely different forms of matter.

      Yes because a wwall is magical, nice to kow.

      There's a lot of things in fiction that react to physical matter. The balls are magical.

      Yes, it actually does lol.

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    • "That's not the argument I made whatsoever, both definitions clearly show that they're not remotely the same thing."

      Both are things made of matter. Therefore, anything that's also matter or can interact with matter will react with them the same. 

      "Yes, cause it is. A bullet is and a magical shield are two completely different forms of matter."

      If the Magic Shield has shown to react with matter, it can and will react to Jiren's attacks (Which is physical) and if it's weaker than said attack, will break. 

      "Yes because a wwall is magical, nice to kow."

      the hell is even this argument.

      "There's a lot of things in fiction that react to physical matter. The balls are magical."

      And if they react to physical matter, then they react to physical matter. Whether it's magical or not literally means nothing. 

      "Yes, it actually does lol."

      This statement means that if I call two lumps of Titanium that's exactly the same different things then they'd adopt different properties.

      If I call a lump of Titanium a bullet and a lump of matter a shield, that'd make them fundamentally different? That's what you're arguing right now. 

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    • "Both are things made of matter. Therefore, anything that's also matter or can interact with matter will react with them the same. "

      >False equivalence, magical properties of matter do not equate to regular matter just because "they're both matter".

      "If the Magic Shield has shown to react with matter, it can and will react to Jiren's attacks (Which is physical) and if it's weaker than said attack, will break. " >React? You mean that it blocks attacks? This is the fallacy of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Show objective proof that just because it blocks physical attacks that suddenly means Jiren can glare it.

      "the hell is even this argument." >It comes from your backwards claim that just because jiren can glare a wall he can glare a magical shield. No sir, your argument is nonsensical and fallacious.

      "This statement means that if I call two lumps of Titanium that's exactly the same different things then they'd adopt different properties." >How is a magical property of a shield and a wall remotely the "Exact same thing" your analogy is bad. False analogy fallacy, moving on.

      "If I call a lump of Titanium a bullet and a lump of matter a shield, that'd make them fundamentally different? That's what you're arguing right now."

      >Yes because of the properties that make up them they are different. Especially since one is a magical property and one is of physical property. You are literally trying equate supernatural properties to natural ones lol.

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    • ">False equivalence, magical properties of matter do not equate to regular matter just because "they're both matter"."

      Again, if they both interact as if both was normal matter, it does not matter what composition the Magical thing is. If the magic in question has been shown to interact and get overwhelmed by normal physical things, then it will indeed get overwhelmed. 

      A Magic Wall getting hit by a nuke, in most instances, will completely shatter from said Nuke. 

      "React? You mean that it blocks attacks? This is the fallacy of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Show objective proof that just because it blocks physical attacks that suddenly means Jiren can glare it."

      ... What? It's a physical thing, the magical thing is very physical and it is definitely able to react to kinetic energy. Jiren, who's Glare is physical and produces kinetic energy, is able to interact and possibly destroy it via being stronger than its shown limits. 

      You on the other hand have to prove that just because it's magical means it has the durability to survive Jiren's attacks.

      And no, stop throwing around big words. It is not at all a Fallacy. If it displays a property, it can be assumed said property transfers throughout; the fact that it's physical. What's a fallacy is assuming it can survive an attack significantly higher than what it's shown to survive. 

      "It comes from your backwards claim that just because jiren can glare a wall he can glare a magical shield. No sir, your argument is nonsensical and fallacious."

      You're the one being fallacious here; just because it's magical does not make it special in any way or form. If it displays no special properties and acts just like any other physical thing, Jiren who's well above Eclipsa's league should be able to both interact and break it.

      "How is a magical property of a shield and a wall remotely the "Exact same thing" your analogy is bad. False analogy fallacy, moving on."

      For god's sake you're idiotic. You have yet to prove that this "Magical Shield" is special in its properties and until you do, it's just a manifested glorified wall. Because that's exactly what a shield is supposed to do; block crap. And if it doesn't display the capabilities to block attacks on such a high level than what it's shown, it will break. 

      What you're trying to imply with Eclipsa's magical shield is a No Limits Fallacy. Just because it's magical does NOT mean it can suddenly block Jiren's attacks "Just because it's magic". 

      "Yes because of the properties that make up them they are different. Especially since one is a magical property and one is of physical property. You are literally trying equate supernatural properties to natural ones lol."

      You have not proved this. At all. 

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    • "Again, if they both interact as if both was normal matter, it does not matter what composition the Magical thing is. If the magic in question has been shown to interact and get overwhelmed by normal physical things, then it will indeed get overwhelmed. " >So not only do you ignore the logical fallacy you comitted but repeated the same argument again? Already showing me poor argumentation.

      "A Magic Wall getting hit by a nuke, in most instances, will completely shatter from said Nuke." >This is never shown in SVTFOE's instances + I require scans. 

      "... What? It's a physical thing, the magical thing is very physical and it is definitely able to react to kinetic energy. Jiren, who's Glare is physical and produces kinetic energy, is able to interact and possibly destroy it via being stronger than its shown limits. "

      >How is it physical? It blocks attacks from other magical beings, not from physical objects. This does not suddenly change the fact that you're tryig to combine two completely different properties together.

      "You on the other hand have to prove that just because it's magical means it has the durability to survive Jiren's attacks." >Where did I say the shield can survive attacks? I said Jiren's glare isn't going to null the shield because he's only shown to do this against projectiles. You're already misclaiming my points.

      "And no, stop throwing around big words. It is not at all a Fallacy. If it displays a property, it can be assumed said property transfers throughout; the fact that it's physical. What's a fallacy is assuming it can survive an attack significantly higher than what it's shown to survive." >How is the fallacy of extraordinary claims remotely big words?  It is a fallacy, your denial doesn't suddenly debunk the truth. I literally never claimed it can survive any attacks higher then it, I said Jiren can't nullify the shield cause "lolglare".

      "You're the one being fallacious here; just because it's magical does not make it special in any way or form. If it displays no special properties and acts just like any other physical thing, Jiren who's well above Eclipsa's league should be able to both interact and break it." >Nice "no u". It seems we need to understand what magic is https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic The very concept of what magic is supposed to be would make it special. Can you show me instances where it acts like other physical things now, cause earlier you said you don't even know if this is the case now you're arguing it's outright the case. You're already showing contradicative argumentation.

      "For god's sake you're idiotic. You have yet to prove that this "Magical Shield" is special in its properties and until you do, it's just a manifested glorified wall. Because that's exactly what a shield is supposed to do; block crap. And if it doesn't display the capabilities to block attacks on such a high level than what it's shown, it will break. " >Nice to know I hit a nerve. By the very idea that it uses magic it's special lol, do you not know what magic is? 

      "What you're trying to imply with Eclipsa's magical shield is a No Limits Fallacy. Just because it's magical does NOT mean it can suddenly block Jiren's attacks "Just because it's magic". " >That's not what a NLF is whatsoever, lots of people seem to not get that fallacy. I didn't say that because it's magical that it can block Jiren's attacks I'm saying Jiren can't glare it and thus nullify it because he's only shown to do that to projectiles.

      "You have not proved this. At all. " >Why would I need to prove common sense? The burden of proof also falls on you. Good sir, you've made the claim that magical and physical properties are somehow the same thing, objectively prove it. You've just repeated your same arguments ad naeseum.

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    • JIREM VIEW STOMPS

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    • Mickey1940 wrote: sorry that this is necro

      but Jiren AP stomps cause he's WAAAAY above baseline while Eclipsa is just above baseline. He can just glare through projectiles and shields and whatnot

      plus he starts with glare, which is instant gg

      .

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    • HAKKAIDER wrote: JIREM VIEW STOMPS

      No,lmfao

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    • Eclipsa is multiversal+ this wiki is trash,lmfao

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    • CrackNet wrote: Eclipsa is multiversal+ this wiki is trash,lmfao

      Cool, make a CRT or don’t complain

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:
      Spirit Bomb isn't a shield, a shield isn't a projectile.

      dude

      If you were holding a cardboard shield and i had an AK47, I would easily be able to tear the shield apart

      Now replace the AK47 with Jiren and the cardboard with Eclipsa's shields

      It's the same thing

      That's just how shields work.

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    • It's not the same thing whatsoever and is a false analogy on the highest scale. If you're saying Jiren's power breaks through it, sure I have no contension against that I had a completely different argument for why Eclipsa wins irregardless, but if you're going to argue his glare nullifies her shield just cause it nullifies projectiels I'm arguing against that.

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    • I might be misunderstanding, and feel free to explain to me if I am, but if you are implying that Jiren’s glare doesn’t work because Eclipsa has a shield as opposed to a projectile, that’s absolutely ludicrous.

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    • It doesn't power null a shield because it can power null a projectile.  That's how the power null rules work from what I've seen in a page describing it. And no, it's not really ludicirous, glaring away an offensive projectile is not equivalent to glaring away a defensive shield.

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    • "It doesn't power null a shield because it can power null a projectile."

      But Jiren's Glare isn't Power Null. It's literally an attack. When it nullifies other projectiles and attacks, it's because it's pitting a tidal wave against a Super Soaker. Jiren's attack is plain better, which is why it seems to nullify projectiles. Hell, Jiren doesn't even have Power Null.

      "That's how the power null rules work from what I've seen in a page describing it."

      Except we're not arguing power null. We're arguing that his glare is far too powerful of an attack for Eclipsa's shield.

      "And no, it's not really ludicirous, glaring away an offensive projectile is not equivalent to glaring away a defensive shield."

      Jiren's Glare is an attack. If it only nullifies projectiles, it would've never hurt Goku the way it did. 

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    • snip

      "But Jiren's Glare isn't Power Null. It's literally an attack. When it nullifies other projectiles and attacks, it's because it's pitting a tidal wave against a Super Soaker. Jiren's attack is plain better, which is why it seems to nullify projectiles. Hell, Jiren doesn't even have Power Null." >You can have attacks that nullify at the same time, Beerus and Goku have power null for that exact reason. So yes, Jiren's Glare is power ull.

      "Except we're not arguing power null. We're arguing that his glare is far too powerful of an attack for Eclipsa's shield."

      >The way you've described it is power null.



      "Jiren's Glare is an attack. If it only nullifies projectiles, it would've never hurt Goku the way it did." ​​>https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Beerus

      "Limited Power Nullification (Can negate energy attacks)"

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    • I agree with @Akreious

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    • A FANDOM user
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