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  • Mr. Bambu
    Mr. Bambu closed this thread because:
    Sigurd won.
    16:42, January 7, 2019

    Well, someone just suggesting this so let's see how this match go. The sword against the sword, the METAL GEAR PROTAG against Katshuhika Hokusai painting goes life, who would win!!!?

    -Post-Itezora/with Akuto Bita Nanam is used and Bolverk Gram is restricted (for now)

    -Speed are equalized

    -Both in character

    -Place: Yoshiwara palace

    -Range is 10 meters

    -Win via anyhting!!!

    Sigurd
    Yasuri Nanami




    VS






    • Sigurd: 6 (Anon, Jordan, Paul, Sol, Kaze, Cueio)
    • Inconclusive: 0
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    • Probably Nanami via precog and durability negation.

      Is it possible for Nanami to copy Sigurd's runes?

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    • Hmmm, unsure. Imma bring the expert to come here.

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    • From what I can see, Nanami can copy/read Sigurd's fighting style perfectly so he loses his usual skill advantage. What she cannot do is copy his physicals, which are nearly x4 her own, or his runes since they are not a physical/anatomical characteristic.

      If she didn't have her dura negation, I'd call stomp but as it stands, voting Sigurd for versatility, range, AP and hax.

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    • Should i unrestrict BG?

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    • No point. Sigurd takes it pretty easily without his beam sword. Runes are his mvp here.

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    • Nanami can copy AP, she just can't copy the abilities of his weapon. Also if the runes are a technique she should be able to duplicate that too, as long as she can see it once.

      She still definitely loses to Gram in range, though, an I'm not sure how well her precog would help with that

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    • By AP, I meant AP to dura. He has just under x4 her dura and can amp himself/Gram with runes if he need be while her copying his will only give her his base AP which is equal to his dura.

      The runes aren't a technique but symbols drawn with magic so unless she can copy magic as well, she can't use them.

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    • Ah, I see. She never interacted with magic in her home series (though it definitely exists), but she can copy Ninpo, which is definitely supernatural in some way.

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    • While we are on the topic of runes, I just remembered that even if she can copy them, Sigurd resists their effects with his magic resist anyway which still leaves the fight heavily in his favor regardless.

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    • Aighty, switching to Glasses-boi FRA.

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    • I suppose it could be argued that she copies magic resistance, but I'm not sure if there'd be much of a basis for it. I'm not entirely sure how Fate magic-resistance works.

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    • Sigurd fra

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    • 3 for dragon Kaiba, now we need to conclude Sigurd vs Gin.

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    • Quick bump!!!

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    • BUMP!!

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    • Would Nanami's power mimicry still work considering that Sigurd as a Servant is completely made of magic and thus possesses non-human physiology? Just curious. Regardless, Sigurd FRA.

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    • Let's see...

      Ninpo has been shown to do some bizarre things, and is essentially the closest thing the series has to magic (aside from Shikizaki's expertise in occult rituals and soothsaying abilities)

      There even exists a Ninpo that allowed a man/woman to become literally nothing but an immortal, intangible spirit that could bodyhop at will and has been doing so for thousands of years. And Nanami can copy Ninpo with ease. Not to mention knowing the same martial art which forces a soul out of a body that her brother knows.

      So she can definitely copy an equivalent to magic, but IDK if Fate magic would be similar.

      BRB, it seems I neglected to put Soul Manip on Nanami's profile.

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    • BUMP!!

      Need more match for Sigurd, and Lobo, Pucci Emiya, Holmes, and Jalter lel.

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    • Okay so several new notions.

      1. Would Nanami be able to force Sigurd's soul out of his body, or would his nature as a Servant interfere with that?

      2. Nanami can copy an equivalent to magic, as well as the opponent's physiology.

      3. She possesses both the ability to amplify her own speed, and to sense the opponent's threat level, meaning she wouldn't be underestimating him.

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    • BUMP!!

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    • 1. Sigurd has no body, he's kind of a soul that doesn't need a body and just looks like he has a physical body and this is true for all servants. Even the blood he spills is only magical energy looking like blood. So no, no body to force his soul out of.

      2. I am thinking it could be the case, but am not sure. On one side, verse equalization and all that jazz. On the other, Ninpo doesn't have and doesn't even use the equivalent to mana or magic circuits or anything remotely familiar. Even Kyotoryou, a martial art that doesn't seem to do anything to pull fantastic stuff off and isn't a Ninpo, can do something like pull out a soul. Personally, I could go either way.

      3. For sure, plus Migeiri and the Ninpo Ashigaru means physical attacks are much less likely to work out... which thinking about it, wouldn't it mean Sigurd would be more predisposed to Runes or Bolverk as his opponent just doesn't seem affected by physical attacks?

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    • 1. Alright so no shoulder push

      2. It seems like if it's either a part of someone's physicality, or something that could theoretically be learned/taught, she can copy it. Servants have no real physicality, but Isn't rune magic something that can be taught?

      3. Yes, probably

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    • 2. It is something that can be taught, but like all Magecraft it's also a big question of do you have enough talent? Do you have talent in THIS area? Think of every human as a model of PC geared for something. The genius Tohsaka would be a high power, high efficiency computer that does a lot and does it all very well, while Shirou can barely run basic programs, if he can even run them, but his Paint is very good at tracing swords then smashing Control + C and + V.

      3. Then it all depends if she could copy Runes or any magecraft. More input would be nice.

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    • Runes can be taught, but Magic Circuits are necessary to perform the spells. Even if Verse Equalization allows for their "magic" systems to work similarly enough to affect each other, it doesn't mean that anything one side can perform is physically possible for the other. Even if Nanami can learn the theory behind the runes, she can't apply them since they're based on a similar but separate system. Like how one can theoretically understand exactly how a Stand works, doesn't mean that said abilities can be replicated without actually possessing the same Stand.

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    • Which then brings up the same question, because Ninpo can be taught, but only generationally.

      So it's like One for All where it gets passed down through a clan's family tree, growing stronger and more useful with each generation. Which sounds similar to Fate magecraft.

      And Nanami can copy any Ninpo and maximize their abilities on the spot, even if her body is cursed by destiny itself to be anatomically incapable of doing so, completely skipping any training and generational leveling. This is literally impossible within the rules of the Katanagatari series, and she is called "an existence that should not exist" because of how big of a middle finger she is to her own series' worldbuilding and power system.

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    • BUMP!!

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    • "Anatomically incapable" are the key words here. "Anatomy" implies physical limits, but Magic Circuits are spiritual. They're determined by the soul. Only IF Nanami can change the very foundation of her soul to gain Magic Circuits or something similar, then I'm convinced she can learn runes. Regardless, even if she could, it wouldn't change much. Bolverk Gram still destroys her.

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    • Well, not really similar beyond superficially. It only happens in mage families because the Crest is made bigger by the head then passed down, normally they find some way to better the genes of the next generation and they usually just get better because genetics kinda play a big part in Magecraft (which is why many families just decay without a damn reason and anomalies without lineage but fuck powerful circuits are born, like mutations in the genome).

      It gets better because of age, which matters in nasuverse, and because genetic anomalies aside, the family does tries their best to strenghten their progeny and better their craft as time passes.

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    • Ah I see, in that case I doubt she could learn runes, leaving Speed Amp as her only potential saving grace.

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    • BUMP!!

      Updated the vote above, did i miss someone?

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    • Would speed amp and precog save her, or does Sigurd have ways to counter that?

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    • I actually think Sigurd doesn't have much to damage her physically. Ashigaru plus her God Eyes means it's unlikely he catches her off guard, but he's likely to notice the odd way her body waves and flows and etc. So he'd try to freeze her with runes, if that's even possible, or directly attack with them. That's how I see it.

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    • Alright, one last question then.

      Would Ryuuryoku Kakou work on Sigurd? It's a shockwave that bypasses armor and skin to strike the innards directly, but as far as I can recall Servants have no real organs, just a "core". Would hitting that core directly be a win condition?

      If so, Nanami might be able to win this, via dura negation, speed amping, and being able to break Gram with Daffodil.

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    • I am actually not sure about this. Never has there been any case of something like this since the Servant is just energy imitating a human and I am not quite sure how it'd interact. What I do know is that the core is never interacted with directly no matter the type of ability, as far as I remember that is, it's only affected through the destruction of the heart or head as they are directly connected to it. I would say it doesn't, but she can go past his armor.

      Comments from others would be nice.

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    • That said, those parts of the body shouldn't be any weaker than the rest of it. Kuzuki aimed one of his fist attacks to Archer's head in the UBW route after losing his Caster enhancement because she died, and he didn't even move it a millimiter where before he could hurt even Saber. And this is an Archer that is low on energy, yet he reacts as if wind blew on him.

      Still I am super uncertain about this and would prefer some comments from others.

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    • Kuzuki had no/lingering mystery/mana at the time. I don't think he could actually do anything to Archer. I honestly have no clue either.

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    • He should still possess some amount of mystery, as his fighting style was coming from a super weird and unknown place and he had achieved breathing, through not to the level of the naturals in it.

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    • Kuzuki was no longer being enhanced by Caster. He could affect Archer but the difference in their abilities was too great since Kuzuki is probably wall level at best without Caster's boosts.

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    • I think Nanami would definitely possess mystery, owing to her God Eyes which are an unnatural, eldritch thing.

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    • BUMP!!

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    • I would still very much like some comments on the vibration reaching to the core of the Servant-thing.

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    • BUMP!!

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    • Sorry for butting in but...

      Where does this whole "servants are just walking souls" comes from. I have just begun reading F/SN so i could be wrong but when Tohsaka summoned Archer, narration stated this

      …もっとも、聖杯にも限界があったらしい。


      いかに聖杯といえど、精霊じみた連中を無差別に呼び出す事は出来なかった。


      悪魔と呼ばれる第六架空要素の実体化には“人々が創造したカタチ”が必要なように、


      英霊たちも、こちらの世界で活動できるカタチが必要なのだ。

      それが彼らの仮の名前であり、この世界に許された存在の在り方。


      聖杯は英霊たちが形になりやすい“器”を設け、器に該当する英霊のみを召喚させる。


      現代へのパスポートと言うか、予め使い魔としての役割を用意しておき、召喚された英霊がその役割に憑依する事で、仮初めの物質化を手助けする。

      Basically, due to HG limits. It can't summon genuine heroes so it opt for creating fake copies of them. In addition they cannot interact with the world without having a "vessel" (physical body) so that they can freely exist in the world. This ultimately doesn't line up with previous post about servants being walking souls

      Was there a retcon? Or am i just too impatient and it is expanded upon more during the routes? (Whichever it is)

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    • I think it's much better for you to post it in Nasuverse thread. To answer you question, also got no idea. Last time I've replayed the game is 5 years ago.

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    • >5 years ago

      Holy crap, that's old.

      Also shameless plug owo

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    • Well it's one of the game I have been replaying. Well not as much as Muv Luv Alternative.

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    • @alrf 

      From what I remember the way it works is that the servant is summoned into the class container by the grail

      This container lacks any organs and such and instead surrounds the servant core which needs to be destroyed to kill a servant

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    • Right, they do have cores, it was said in HF. Archer said that his spiritual core was damage. Well now in FGO it's called spiritual origin.

      Edit:I am not sure if I remember it right, I think it was in HF where servants was explaind properly

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    • @ARLF

      Inferior copies is what Servants are, that's the whole point of the classes. They are vessels that don't summon the full might or abilities of the Servant but make it actually possible to summon them. As for the physical bodies, Servants are brought to the world by the 3rd Magic, or materialization of the soul so it doesn't need a physical vessel (flesh and blood body). But this application is imperfect and incomplete. A Master is not merely a mana provider, is an Archor so the Servant doesn't end up deleted by the World as it knows they are dead and shouldn't be. Because of it Servants have a core and an exterior that mimicks an human body. Hits to the head and heart are fatal not because of any organs, but because they are directly connected to the core and a direct hit strong enough pretty much destroys it, but even the blood Servants shed is actually magical energy and not actual blood.

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    • Oh, i schnee

      Thanks. Sorry for derailing

      But my name is ALRF goddamit not ARLF!! >:x

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    • Arf Arf!!

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    • BUMP!!

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    • Sigurd FRA

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    • Two more boi

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    • BUMP!!

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    • Sigurd FRA

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    • One more boi

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    • Sigurd FRA

      Vel, create Karna vs Cooler Siegfried (Sigurd) thread pls

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    • And grace started.

      Eh, you sure?

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    • Of course if you see it good

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    • I will let the other think, if they agree welp, imma made it.

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    • Assuming Sigurd is just as skilled as Siegfried (I don't believe so but I am probably alone in that), Karna wins. The only reason 'fried lived that long was because AoF nerfed dozens of killshots into scratches. Sigurd dies really fast if he doesn't spam runes from the start and still dies even if he does, just takes a bit longer.

      Also, time for Kratos vs Sigurd which is pretty much spite at this point since its like Achilles but worse.

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    • >Achilles but worse

      Eh? Like?

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    • Sigurd is just as skilled, stronger, has even higher magic resist, far greater versatility (which is almost entirely hax) than Achilles.

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    • I mean, we still didn't know what Kratos lead but welp....why not Kratos vs Medb instead? ovo

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    • Medb would be okay with that

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    • A bit too okay with that, I feel...

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    • Engaging God of War minigame: Chariot my Love

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    • Grace is over, this can be added now.

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    • Already added, this can be closed now.

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