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  • I want to see how far toon force can counter hax.

    Both at 9-B, speed not equalized.

    The mouse that likes cheese

    The robotic cat

    Doraemon render

    Ahhh, mice!

    Jerry

    Boo!

    Votes so far:

    Jerry: 3 (TacticalNuke002, Paulo.junior.969, Goodyfresh)

    Doraemon: 0

    Incon: 0

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    • What does Doraemon start with in character?

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    • He leads with firing weapons for a mouse, as far I know. Then again, he quickly turns into bloodlust when fighting a mouse.

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    • So, Energy Projection? Jerry's reaction speed would help here if that's the case; he has to get rid of Doraemon before he uses any of his better gadgets.

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    • Yes, actually.

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    • This can go 2 ways

      1 way is Doraemon seeing a mouse and either panics and runs away screaming, BFRing himself, or faints on the spot. Jerry wins by default

      OR

      Doraemon sees a mouse and gets bloodlusted, and throws every gun or missiles he has in his pocket at Jerry. Jerry has no justification for being higher than baseline, which is <<< Doraemon's physical AP, which in turn << all his weapons I listed above.

      So Inconclusive. Depends entirely on Doraemon's response

      EDIT: Apparently speed's not equalized. Jerry is still not gonna dent Doraemon's dura. After failing to get the damn mouse (second scenario), Doraemon gets mad and nuke the area with missiles, or use the Fast Bill to catch up with Jerry, or use the Hamelin pipe to BFR Jerry.

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    • Bump.

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    • Graf Thorsdottir wrote:
      This can go 2 ways

      1 way is Doraemon seeing a mouse and either panics and runs away screaming, BFRing himself, or faints on the spot. Jerry wins by default

      OR

      Doraemon sees a mouse and gets bloodlusted, and throws every gun or missiles he has in his pocket at Jerry. Jerry has no justification for being higher than baseline, which is <<< Doraemon's physical AP, which in turn << all his weapons I listed above.

      So Inconclusive. Depends entirely on Doraemon's response

      EDIT: Apparently speed's not equalized. Jerry is still not gonna dent Doraemon's dura. After failing to get the damn mouse (second scenario), Doraemon gets mad and nuke the area with missiles, or use the Fast Bill to catch up with Jerry, or use the Hamelin pipe to BFR Jerry.

      I agree that Doraemon probably takes this pretty handily, assuming that his reaction at the start of the battle is the second one you mentioned instead of the first.

      On the other hand. . . .what reason do we have for believing that Jerry's 9-B key is no higher than baseline?

      I don't think Jerry's toon-force will be able to help him much here, because his toonforce isn't nearly as good as that available to more notable toonforce users like Bugs Bunny or Roadrunner.

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    • Tom and Jerry is actually about the third verse with best toon force, behind Looney Tunes and Popeye, as far I remember.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Tom and Jerry is actually about the third verse with best toon force, behind Looney Tunes and Popeye, as far I remember.

      Really? I wasn't aware of that.  Of course, most of my memories of the T&J verse are from when I was a kid, so it makes sense I may not remember that well.

      Anyway though, what do we know about Tier 9-B Jerry in terms of whether he as at all above baseline?

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    • DC Comics has 5-D Toon Force users, so shouldn't it be the best?

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      DC Comics has 5-D Toon Force users, so shouldn't it be the best?

      Tiering? Probably.

      Versatility and degree of it? Not much really.

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    • What's the difference between tiering and degree?

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      What's the difference between tiering and degree?

      Just because Mr. Mxy's (I assume that is who you are referring to, it's pretty obvious lol) toonforce is at a 5-D tier doesn't mean that it is able to break reality any harder than Bugs Bunny's or Popeye's toonforce.

      It's hard to find a higher degree of toonforce than that which lets someone use a freaking hand-saw to somehow separate Florida from the rest of the united states, lmao.  Looney Tunes characters and Popeye can basically use Toonforce to tell any of the laws of physics that they want to go f**k themselves, haha.

      Don't certain versions of Mickey Mouse also have really, really insanely high degrees of toonforce, if I'm not mistaken?

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    • Breaking physics with Toon Force is not hard to find at all, that's quite literally the description of Toon Force.

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    • Doraemon is haxy af. But, it won't matter if he sees Jerry and runs away/faints in terror. Voting Jerry since Doraemon has not once fought a mouse with any amount of efficiency due to being mortally afraid of them.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Breaking physics with Toon Force is not hard to find at all, that's quite literally the description of Toon Force.

      I mean that it's about the DEGREE to which the Toon Force can break physics, man.  WHen it comes to Looney Tunes and Popeye, said degree is basically unlimited.

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    • Not really, it's just simple Reality Warping, but whatever.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Not really, it's just simple Reality Warping, but whatever.

      Unlike reality warping, Toon Force depends up to what the user desires and how much is aware of it, in cases where you can grab holes like a paper and put it in another place, or paint a realistic thing on a wall and then just go in it as if it was an actual thing are stuff usually exclusive to high-degree Toon Forcers.

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    • Yeah, and all of that is pretty basic when it comes to hax; Toon Force is not that good of a power overall.

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    • It´s more like a defensive hax, attemps at discuss it offensivelly can easily lead to questionable potential wanks.

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    • I guess.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Yeah, and all of that is pretty basic when it comes to hax; Toon Force is not that good of a power overall.

      You really shouldn't underestimate Toon Force so much, it can be very powerful in the hands of a character who is great at using it.

      It is basically a type of reality warping in a certain sense, with the requirement that it needs to be silly or funny in some way and typically needs to involve visual gags.  But that doesn't mean that it can't be extremely powerful; The ways in which the very best Toon Force users are able to break the laws of physics and rewrite reality to suit their needs can be extremely impressive.

      For example, the time that I mentioned when Bugs Bunny used a freaking ORDINARY SIZED STEEL HAND-SAW to literally SAW FLORIDA OFF FROM THE UNITED STATES.  Saying that being able to do something like that isn't useful is pretty ridiculous, becuase what it means is that Bugs Bunny can take an ordinary handheld item and somehow make it freaking large-island level or something along those lines, with the only limitation being that whatever he does with the item has to be goofy-looking.

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    • > Implying sawing Florida is impressive.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      > Implying sawing Florida is impressive.

      Of course no, compared to Bugs' own actual composite tier which is 5-A, a High 6-C or 6-B feat like sawing off Florida from the USA is not impressive.  But my point is that it is impressive in the sense that he somehow accomplished such a feat using a weapon/item which literally only has 9-B durability.  Literally just an ordinary freaking steel-and-wood hand-saw.  The level of physics and reality manipulation exhbited by such a feat is very, VERY impressive.

      Not to mention the SIZE of the saw should have made the feat impossible, not just its durability.  We're talking about a hand-saw with 9-B durability and only a couple feet in length somehow being used in a matter of ONLY A FEW SECONDS to saw off the entire freaking state of florida (length of hundreds of miles, depth of bedrock dozens of miles) from the rest of the United States.  At which point, Bugs continued to use his Toonforce via visual-gags to further screw with the laws of physics by making it so that Florida somehow floats away as if it were floating on top of the water instead of attached to the continental shelf and the North American tectonic plate.  Just watch, man:

      Bugs Bunny Saws Off Florida

      To say the above feat isn't impressive shows an unbelievable amount of bias against toonforce users that I can't even begin to fathom.


      As I said man, do not underestimate Toonforce, Toonforce is some powerful stuff.  Keep dissing it, and I think that Popeye may like to eat some spinach and then have a word with you.  Lol.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      > Implying sawing Florida is impressive.

      That´s pulling a 6-A feat with a 9-B item enhanced with toon force.

      It´s actually impressive.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      > Implying sawing Florida is impressive.
      That´s pulling a 6-A feat with a 9-B item enhanced with toon force.

      It´s actually impressive.

      Yeah dude, exactly what I was saying.

      Although I don't think the feat is even CLOSE to 6-A, I think that at best it is 6-B.

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    • Literally any 5-A Reality Warper who is worth a damn could do the same; doing stuff on lower tier is not really that impressive when we're talking about hax, no matter what weapon you're using.

      Toon Force is really overastimated, honestly, it's literally just a more limited version of Reality Warping; it is a good power, but I've never seen a Toon Force chatacter having "unlimited potential" like people say they do.

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    • Then again, it wouldn´t really affect the match much probably.

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    • Oh yeah, I forget this was a Doraemon Vs Jerry for a second. I guess I'm voting Jerry FRA.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Literally any 5-A Reality Warper who is worth a damn could do the same; doing stuff on lower tier is not really that impressive when we're talking about hax, no matter what weapon you're using.

      Toon Force is really overastimated, honestly, it's literally just a more limited version of Reality Warping; it is a good power, but I've never seen a Toon Force chatacter having "unlimited potential" or stuff like that.

      The point here is that since Bugs Bunny's actual tier is 5-A, he can totally pull off a feat like the one mentioned above which is at Tier 5-A instead of High 6-C to 6-B.

      Toon Force, at a high enough level (like the level of Popeye and Looney Tunes characters), allows someone to do any kind of reality warping up to their tier (and in some cases, above their tier by negating durability through things like transmutation and what-not) as long as it could in any way be seen as funny.  Yes, that is a limitation, but it's not as big a limitation you seem to think as long as someone is creative enough and has a good enough sense of humor.

      I mean, Toon Force can even make someone pretty much immune to death by conventional means, as long as it provides for a good visual gag.  That has happened literally a gazillion times in Looney Tunes, like all the times when Yosemite Sam has been shot or stabbed full of holes and somehow survived, or all the times when Daffy Duck has gotten his freaking face blown off so hard that it flipped his beak around to the other side of his head.  Yes yes I know, those are actually regeneration feats, not toonforce per-se. . . .buuuuut the reason those regeneration feats are possible is because they are visual gags, meaning that those regen feats come from the characters' toon-force.

      Pretty much at least half of the various powers listed for characters like Bugs Bunny are just powers they were able to make up on-the-fly using their toonforce reality-warping as visual gags.  High-level Toonforce users are kinda like Pre-Crisis Superman in that regard, they can pretty much give themselves new powers as they please as long as those powers happen to result in something funny looking.  For example, in the above feat where he saws off Florida, Bugs Bunny used toonforce to grant himself two whole new powers unique to that particular situation:  The first being the ability to amplify the durability and range of an ordinary handheld object by tremendously many orders of magnitude (i.e. he gave himself a form of Stats-Amplification for Objects pretty much on-the-fly), and the second one being some type of Earth-manipulation, seeing as how he somehow made Florida behave as if it were floating on the water instead of attached to a tectonic plate.  He quite literally just gave himself new superpowers as he pleased in order to do something funny.

      And LMAO yeah this is still Doraemon vs. Jerry, but I feel that a discussion of how useful an ability Toonforce can be is certainly relevant here.

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    • Assuming they can just give themselves whatever power they want even if they have never shown it is pretty NLF (NLF is another thing that kind of kills a bunch of arguments towards Toon Force); as I said, it does allow the user to do stuff like warp reality and alter physics to some extent, but all of that is pretty basic when it comes to hax; it's just a variation of Reality Warping, just that.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Assuming they can just give themselves whatever power they want even if they have never shown it is pretty NLF (NLF is another thing that kind of kills a bunch of arguments towards Toon Force); as I said, it does allow the user to do stuff like warp reality and alter physics to some extent, but all of that is pretty basic when it comes to hax; it's just a variation of Reality Warping, just that.

      As I said it is any power they want WITH CERTAIN LIMITATIONS, those limitations being that it is limited by their tier and the degree of the reality warping they have demonstrated in the past, as well as by the limitation that whatever they do has to look funny.

      I certainly wasn't saying anything along the lines of a NLF, so it's obvious I could have phrased things better.  My bad, lol.

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    • Ok.

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    • I'm honestly kind of surprised to see that Doraemon himself isn't considered a Toonforce user himself; a lot of what he has done with some of his gadgets certainly SEEMS like Toonforce, doesn't it?

      Oh, also, when we were talking about some of the very best Toon Force users, there was someone we forgot to include who is actually probably even somewhat above the likes of Looney Tunes: Arale from Doctor Slump.  She has a RIDICULOUS degree of Toon Force with seemingly very few, if any, limitations.  She can pop the sun like a balloon while still standing on the ground on earth, and can grant life to inanimate objects as large as entire planets in order to cause them to make funny faces.  She can even amp her stats by going Super Saiyan despite. . . .not being a Saiyan.  Because it's funny.  Lol.

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    • Yeah, Tier 1 is where things start to get a little hard to understand if you don't have at least a basic understanding of dimensionality, and most comedy cartoon don't waste their time trying to do anything related to higher dimensions; they're there to make kids laugh, not to explain what the sixth dimension is.

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    • That's also why Tier 1 is not that common in mainstream media overall, and the ones that have it are mainly science-fiction; in order to have a Tier 1, the show woul have to waste its time explaining what dimensionality is to the viewer so they don't get lost, and even if they explain, the most casual viewer might still get lost, since higher dimensions isn't that simple of a concept.

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    • Yeah I've gotta say that once you start getting into the level of Tier 1 characters, Toon Force tends to become completely irrelevant compared to their other, far more versatile forms of Reality Warping and similar hax.

      I'm actually surprised there is even such a thing as a Tier 1 with Toonforce. . .VERY surprised.

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    • I like to explain higher dimensions as simply like a file on a PC, no matter how big it gets, you won´t get to another file (universe), unless you make a special way to travel to it between the carpet they are in (the 5th dimension), and if te carpet was inside another carpet and the file you want to go to is in the higher extension, you have to go past the 6th dimension, and so on.

      There, a simple definition easy to grasp.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      That's also why Tier 1 is not that common in mainstream media overall, and the ones that have it are mainly science-fiction; in order to have a Tier 1, the show woul have to waste its time explaining what dimensionality is to the viewer so they don't get lost, and even if they explain, the most casual viewer might still get lost, since higher dimensions isn't that simple of a concept.

      Yeah see this is why I don't put any stock in people rating characters from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as 1-C/10-dimensional.  There was literally ONE mention of things being 10-dimensional in the series, and no attempt was ever made to explain or refer to higher dimensions other than that, and the final battle for all intents and purposes appeared to take place within some kind of alternate version of 4-D spacetime.


      But people are still like "well Simon is probably 1-C because of this one-off statement in the show by writers who obviously don't even understand what higher dimensions actually are" (added that last part myself, obviously, lol), which literally makes zero freaking sense whatsoever.  Lol.

      Part of the problem here is the common trope that writers suck at math and don't understand physics.  I've never really put any stock into "higher dimensional" characters in fictional media except when the writers show that they actually know what they are freaking doing when referring to higher dimensions, lol.

      Edit:  If anything, the 10-D statement in Gurren Lagann, for example (if the writers DID know what they were doing) was probably referring to something like the situation in String Theory where the extra 6 spatial dimensions are curled up into an imperceptible compact manifold; in which case, that wouldn't even be relevant to tiering.

      Wow, I got so off-topic here.  Lol.

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    • Now find a way to put that explanation on a script without making it seem forced or out of place, while still making it funny, and without having a character turn to the audience and explain it, because nobody likes forced exposition.

      Writting Tier 1 character is a pain.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Now find a way to put that explanation on a script without making it seem forced or out of place, while still making it funny, and without having a character turn to the audience and explain it, because nobody likes forced exposition.

      Why's it have to be "funny," man?  That would only be if it were in a show which is mainly focused on comedy.

      Anyway, see what I said in my above post about an example from a series (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann) which had a 10-D statement in the show which was quite obviously total BS and shouldn't have any stock put in it whatsoever.

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    • Paulo.junior.969 wrote:
      Now find a way to put that explanation on a script without making it seem forced or out of place, while still making it funny, and without having a character turn to the audience and explain it, because nobody likes forced exposition.

      Writting Tier 1 character is a pain.

      Ok.

      Infinity inside of another infinity thing along others like itself blah bah blah (side character breaks the explanation as he sees it as boring).

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    • Because we're talking about Toon Force characters; I was explaining why Tier 1 Toon Force is so rare.

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    • Rather than derailing, wouldn't you guys rather vote?

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    • Let´s better start gathering the votes now.

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    • Jerry: 2 (TacticalNuke002, Paulo.junior.969)

      Doraemon: 0

      Incon: 0

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    • I'm voting for Jerry for the reasons that other people are giving.

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    • Adding to OP the votes...

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    • So what am I missing here after the toon force discussion? TacticalNuke gave his reasons, Paulo and Goody followed. So let me see TacticalNuke's reasonings

      TacticalNuke002 wrote: Doraemon is haxy af. But, it won't matter if he sees Jerry and runs away/faints in terror. Voting Jerry since Doraemon has not once fought a mouse with any amount of efficiency due to being mortally afraid of them.

      The running away part is always followed by him pulling out the big guns or big bombs.

      Also no one answered the AP gap. In fact, I don't even know why Jerry has 9-B as a rating when his justification is from scaling from Tom, who in turn survived the High 7-C White Mouse. Unless proper justifications are provided (calculated feats or powerscaling), we give baseline to characters. In that case Jerry can't harm Doraemon at all. He can be faster due to unequalised speed but if he can't harm Doraemon after a while, Doraemon gets madder and either stops time or BFR Jerry away with Bashou Fan. So unless anyone provides me a proper reason for Jerry being close to Doraemon's dura, he's not hurting Doraemon at all and will only stall with speed for so long before he gets za warudo'd or BFR'd

      That said, Doraemon does indeed faint every now and then when he suddenly sees a mouse (not as frequent as the running and coming back with guns, mind you). So Jerry can win on psychological factor alone. It's pretty inconsistent, however.

      TL;DR: Until someone provides solid reasons for Jerry's AP being comparable to Doraemon's dura, it is Inconclusive. Either Doraemon faints off the bat, automatically giving Jerry the win. Or Doraemon runs away before coming back with the heavy firearms and bombs, and Jerry stalling with his speed until he gets timestopped or BFR'd and lose.

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    • Bump.

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    • No one answered my debunk 

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    • I do know that Doraemon brings out his heavy weapons in panic, but he KOs himself before he could use them, every single time.

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    • Did you ignore my scans? Nobita stopped him anytime he brought the big guns out

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    • Do note that Jerry also has toonforce regen, being able to come back from ashes.

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    • And what's stopping Doraemon from freezing the ashes in place before BFR?

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    • Lack of knowledge. Plus, seeing a mouse reform from ashes is sure to give him a heart attack or fainting.

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    • My scans literally show him pulling the Solidifier Light off the bat straight after seeing the enemy's physiology. He is not an idiot to see Jerry reforming from ashes and do nothing while having a perfect counter for it.

      Also seeing regenerating enemies is nothing new to Doraemon. In fact it'd just give him more reason to use the Glue Gun to stick Jerry down.

      Also Doraemon would more often faint when surprised by a mouse, or seeing a giant one. Normally seeing a mouse does not induce fainting as often

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    • Yeah no. He faints from toy mice. Seeing a real mouse come back from being turned to ash is going to majorly freak him out and you cannot convince me otherwise.

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    • Oh yeah? A human-sized mouse popped up and he was only scared enough to hide behind the door. A human-sized alien mouse appearing before him made him panic for a bit. When he shrank down a gigantic mouse only scares him, not make him faint. Show me one instance he faints when not caught by surprise. Also Jerry is hardly a real mouse. He regenerates in cartoony ways while Doraemon has seen more gruesome regeneration feats.

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

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    • A FANDOM user
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