I did a similar thread in the past, i propose two versions without the powerlevels scaling or only Kaioken Boosts.
Note 1: The first version was rejected because it abused powerlevels scaling.
2] Without Powerlevels Scaling:
- Remains the same.
- Full Power Nappa and Base Goku speed would be Relativistic+ [57,4 SoL], due being twice as fast than Raditz, who easily blitzed both BoZ Goku and Piccolo. Nappa easily kept with the Z-Fighterz that are faster than Raditz while being suppressed.
- A full powered Great Ape Vegeta could be Planet level+ [Over 2,1 Yottatons].
Namek and Ginyu Saga:
- Everything remains the same sans the FTL speed.
- Ginyu remains at least Planet level.
- Goku KKx2 = Great Ape Vegeta and reaches into Large Planet level with Kaiokenx3-10.
- Goku easily blitzed the Ginyu Force, who are faster than Kkx4 Goku, so he should be 6 FTL Sol in base, so his Kaioken states are FTL+.
- Base Frieza remains FTL+, Dwarf Star level [1.7 Tenatons] but becomes twice as fast/strong since his statement and that he made Post Zenkai Vegeta worthless, so Dwarf Star level [3,4 Tenatons], MFTL [106 SoL].
- Third Form is slightly over x1,481, so Dwarf Star level+ [5 Tenatons], MFTL [156,986 SoL].
- Base Goku is much stronger than Third Form Frieza and Post Zenkai Vegeta, so x1.5 = At least Dwarf Star level+ [7,5 Tenatons], MFTL [235,479 SoL].
- Kaiokenx20 brings him at Small Star level [150 Tenatons], MFTL+ [4709,58 SoL]and only bruised Frieza.
- Due to Frieza being half of his power both him and Goku reach Star level.
Android Saga and Onwards:
- Small Star level for the Base Saiyans starts with Base Trunks.
- Large Star level starts with Semi-Perfect Cell. The at least on Large Star level char. could be removed.
- Post Spirit Room Base Trunks and Vegeta remains Small Star level, while Base Goku, Gohan and later Vegeta in the Buu Saga would be Star level.
- Everything else remains the same.
3] Only Kaioken Boosts [Suggested by Kep]:
Goku = 0.14c.
KKx4 Goku = 0.56c.
Ginyu Goku = KKx4 Goku = 0.56c.
Ginyu Goku KKx10 = 5.6c.
2nd Form Freeza and Piccolo = 5.6c.
Goku Post-Zenkai = 5.6c.
Goku Post Zenkai Kaiokenx10 and Kaiokenx20 = 56c and 112c.
100% Freeza = Either at least 112c or 224c via him stating he was at half of his speed and strength.
AP [My version]:
Goku = 69,69 Zettatons.
Kkx4 Goku = 278 Zettatons.
Ginyu Goku = 278 Zettatons.
Ginyu Goku KKx10 = 2,780 Yottatons.
First Form Frieza = 1.7 Tenatons.
Second Form Frieza = 3,4 Tenatons.
Third Form = 5 Tenatons.
Base Goku = 7,5 Tenatons.
Kkx20 Goku = 150 Tenatons.
100% Frieza = 300 Tenatons.
Android 18 = 600 Tenatons.
Semi-Perfect Cell = 1200 Tenatons.
Users can chose the version that is more fitting.
Note 2: This could be highlighted. I'm personally neutral on the outcome. This is manga continuity, but if this is accepted i will make also revisions to the Anime Toei characters based on this.
Personally the 3rd option is the only one were everyone could mostly agree on and it also the safest.
The 2nd option is uncertain but still possible, while the 1st option isn't going to be accepted, not even by me.
But i do not feel like Vegeta's statement should be interpreted literally.
The real cal howard Why exactly? Even a fodder like Raditz was capable to react and dodge an attack supposed to be faster than Piccolo's Moon busting Ki blast which was calculated to have Relativistic speed, 50% Frieza could be most likely be Massively FTL.
So it not fully say unreasonable to think of the possibility of Cell Saga Tiers or Buu Saga Tiers be potentially MFTL+.
Damage3245 wrote: All Ki blasts being assumed to be as fast, or faster, than Piccolo's Moon-busting Ki blast has always seemed weird to me.
So do you think a Kamehameha from Buu Saga Goku and a Kamehameha from Early DBZ Goku are going to travel at the same speed? Personally it seen very unlikely.
Pretty sure it was establish that Ki Attacks not only become stronger but also faster over time, and this is the only explanation of how DBZ characters can be tag and hit by other Ki Attacks despire the fact a weakling like Raditz was capable do dodge one at point blank.
Damage3245 wrote: Perhaps the Ki blast Raditz dodged wasn't as fast as the Moon-busting one then? It's a possibility at least.
That's very unlikely, it was never suggest or implied that the Makakosappo was unable to moving as fast or of be even slower than the Moon busting Ki Blast, only that it take a lot of time and concentration to fully charge.
Damage3245 wrote: All Piccolo commented on his speed was "No one can move that quickly!" which just means that Raditz is faster than all other Dragon Ball characters up to that point.
And how this prove the Makakosappo was had a speed lower than Piccolo's Moon busting attack?
LightinAnt wrote: I'm pretty sure Raditz dodged the Special Beam Cannon which is a charged attack thus holds more power and speed than a casual Ki blast which he threw at the moon
Exactly, we all know that more Ki a character had a more faster it would be able to move and react, i don't see reason why it cannot be apply to Ki attacks in general.
Especially when we see that even High Tiers and Top Tiers in DBZ can still be tagged and hit by energy blasts, and since is really unlikely that characters were getting slower, it means their energy blasts were getting faster.
I'm iffy about Massively FTL+ without plus sign, but Massively FTL seems reasonable IMO. To be fair, there is a possible Massively FTL+ speed feat closer to baseline in early Dragon Ball Super. Prior to the Battle of Gods saga and before the arrival of Beerus, base from Vegeta was casually reacted to machine generated turret lasers on an environment of 1000 G's. However, this point in time most likely has Goku an Vegeta overwhelmingly stronger than Super Buu and Buu saga Vegito, so it probably doesn't scale to anyone.
But I'm unsure if those turret lasers existed in earlier sagas, or if Vegeta reacted to them on the 300, 400, 450 G's respectively. It's been a long time since I read the Manga. And lets definitely not use PL's linearly.
I know, I was merely mentioning it. I'm not sure if they're real lasers either. I know lasers fired from fingers are obviously not real lasers, but machine generated ones are more likely than Ki lasers obviously. But we'll still need to look at more details.
@Jobbo, it uses 10x Earth's mass, but uses identical volume to Earth. We know it's 10 G's, but we don't know exact diameter of Vegeta in canon, so we go by same size as Earth, but make the density 10x greater.
Well, if we calced the speed then all we could say is "Goku reacted to an attack that calced to be this fast".
It'd be something at least.
Right now I'm not sure how to feel about almost all the speed in DBZ being based on a single feat.
Attempted to, but barely got Sub-Rel+ with a weird assumption (Krillin was falling to ground during the attack so I assumed the Kamehameha made the distance before Krillin fell) and just MHS+ using anime-timeframe
Which Frieza calc? The old 1.7 Tenaton feat is currently usable for now, but I think we aren't using the 0.25c speed feat since we got a better one. Even Raditz has the 0.14c speed feat that scales to everyone and with characters being overwhelmingly faster.
Kep told me that Roshi feat was calced at Planet level. Relativistic, said Roshi is weaker than Old Piccolo, who is inferior to his Younger State, which was killed by Post Water Kid Goku, the latter is weaker to 23° Budokai Yamcha, Tao Pai Pai and Tien, who are much weaker to Kami, 23° Budokai Goku and Piccolo.
@Dzhindzholia, some characters are closer the SPC's 1000 Kilofoe feat rather than they are to First Form Frieza's 1.7 Tenaton feat. I understand it's hard, but having a whole bunch of characters be at least High 5-A likely far higher via A > B > C logic, is really redundant to the the point where it's bad. Same with at least Relativistic likely Far higher. In fact, that latter is worse. Option 3 is the safest lowball we can find if anything.
Dark649 wrote: Kep told me that Roshi feat was calced at Planet level. Relativistic, said Roshi is inferior to Young Piccolo, Post Water Kid Goku, 23 Budokai Chiaotzu, Yamcha, Tao Pai Pai and Tien, who are much weaker to Kami, Goku and Piccolo.
That as Buffed Roshi while using his 100% Kamehameha.
Only 23rd Budokai Goku and 23rd Budokai Piccolo who should be get scaled from 100% Kamehameha, as the Super Kamehameha was imply to be stronger than 100% Kamehameha, which is also conferm in a guidebook.
Dark649 wrote: Roshi has stated, mainly after seeing Tien that he they are stronger.
I still think it would be more safe to scale only Budokai 23rd Goku and Piccolo as in that case it was suggest Goku's Super Kamehameha to be stronger than his 100% Kamehameha, while with Tien it can be interpreted as the former be stronger than Master Roshi without the 100% Kamehameha.
At least High 5-A for 2nd and 3rd form Frieza (The previous calc isn't far beyond Small Star level)
Low 4-C for Final Form Frieza 50% and KKx20 Goku and the Spirit Bomb (Given the inmense jump in power)
Low 4-C Frieza 100% and SSJ Goku (Namek), Mecha Frieza and SSJ Trunks (Low 4-C has a big gap in power)
Likely Low 4-C Androids 19-20 (The likes of Gohan are well below Gero according to Piccolo, and, even before the 3 years training, Gohan could stagger 3rd Form Frieza, so I guess this is a fair rating)
Low 4-C+ Pre Training SSJ Goku, likely Piccolo post Training
4-C Post Training SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta, Androids 17-18, Piccolo-Kami, etc (The Androids are stronger than Vegeta, but not by an inmense margin)
4-C+ Imperfect Cell and Android 16 (Cell easily defeated Piccolo and 17)
High 4-C... Everyone from SemiPerfect Cell up to Super Perfect Cell basically
Large Star level (4.535 Foe) Shin (Who being honest, given that he is weaker than the Rusty SSJ Buu Saga Gohan, but not by much, and his terror of fighting Dabura, who is Perfect Cell level, he should be around ASSJ Vegeta if you ask me)
SomebodyData wrote: Can anyone explain to me how we got MFTL+ and 2x Frieza = Android 18 stuff? i am confused. And was Ginyu Saga Goku even able to get to KKx10?
Its due to an upward speed scaling of x2 stomp boosts, transformations and kaioken boosts. x2 Frieza is because he was 50% of his power and it does not correlate to Android 18, who casually broke SS Trunks sword, which previously killed Mecha Frieza.
Why would Post Zenkai Base Goku be equal to First Form Frieza when he fought a very casual Final Form Frieza, who killed Post Zenkai Vegeta that surpassed his Third Form that easily defeated Post Nail Piccolo in power?.
Dark649 wrote: Why would Post Zenkai Base Goku be equal to First Form Frieza when he fought a very casual Final Form Frieza, who killed Post Zenkai Vegeta that surpassed his Third Form that easily defeated Post Nail Piccolo in power?.
Look, multipliers are kind of problematic, even if we use KK's, that's all we should use
The third option suggested by Kep in speed assumes that Goku speed was 0.14c [the same as Piccolo beam] when he fought Vegeta, which is not the same because he should have got faster after training with King Kai since he kept up with Full Power Nappa, who should be faster than Krillin that oneshotted 4 Saibaman that are equal to Raditz that blitzed both Goku and Vegeta.
Ginyu Saga Base Goku is faster than Kaiokenx4 Base Saiyan Saga Goku since he blitzed Recoome, Jeice and Burter, who are stronger than Post Zenkai Vegeta that killed Zarbon.
2nd Form Freeza and Piccolo are faster than Ginyu Saga Kaiokenx10 Goku because its only slightly faster than Base Frieza, Second Form Frieza implied that has no problems to blitz and kill Post Zenkai Vegeta, who briefly stopped his first form.
Goku Post-Zenkai is faster than Frieza three forms and Post Zenkai Vegeta against casual Final Frieza.
- That is the reason why the second option has higher ratings.