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  • SomebodyData
    SomebodyData closed this thread because:
    04:56, November 7, 2018
    • Because by the end of the thread it had become apparent that it was not you trying to argue based on evidence, rather arguing based on headcanon.

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    • Well, Nintendo never bothered to actually say if it´s canon or not, assumptions have to be made in this case, and the one I made is pretty good, as there are barely a few others that are as consistent as mine (except maybe the one that says that it´s just not canon), but as in the end neither side has actual proof to be supported, I think I would like to you at least say what you think.

      You could likely say that it´s a flip coin at this point.

      As for evidence, the cameos and references that were mentioned in the thread are worth to point out, the headcanon was just to connect the dots.

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    • "neither side has actual proof to be supported"

      Look, its obviously non-canon. Taken at face value it breaks any conventional scaling worse than Dragon Ball Super at its apex worst. It completely ignores in-verse mechanics (See Samus' Ice / Wave Beam not actually having the properties, or the inclusion of Dark Samus as a Samus skin in previous incarnations); never mentioned in any timeline; never canonically occurred in any series outside of a meager reference; and requires so much headcanon to make it fit in the stories that you would probably be able to make a fan-fic crossing over Berserk, MLP, Pewdiepie, and King George the Second and explaining it with in the time it takes for one to explain why Snake hasn't used Samus' arm cannon to one-hit ko his enemies, or why Little Mac hasn't used mushrooms to become big Mac.

      "You could likely say that it´s a flip coin at this point."

      Yes, if one side of the coin was blessed with fate manipulation and probability manipulation from a Tier 0 itself.

      Technically yes, it is an assumption. However, the opposite is literally built on so many assumptions that you would have to flip a coin for each one and in doing so have to get it heads thousands of times to actually make it even considered feasible.

      Assuming this is a joke, you bamboozled me.

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    • Well, I wasn´t joking at all.

      As for the scaling, they clearly were balanced by Master Hand, after all, Olimar is a good example of this (due to sheer size); as for the items part, they just didn´t obtain enought time to get "souvenirs" from other verses, which is why Snake never got a blaster from Slippy.

      Lastly, I almost forgot, for the Samus part, it clearly was just game mechanics and fanservice.

      We aren´t going to actually say that that one costume of Meta Knight is Galacta Knight.

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    • That's literally one point, which again, you're using headcanon to solve.

      Speaking of which, just off the top of my head: Doctor Mario and Mario, Samus and Zero Suit Samus, literal copies of the same characters.

      Unless you can give an answer without head canon, please stop with this... endeavor.

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    • Again, chockfull with so many assumptions and headcanons.

      "Master Hand nerfed them"

      "Not enough time to bring stuff back"

      "Character gets sized back"

      Are you serious

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    • Yes, I am serious.

      As for the Dr. Mario and Samus part, again, game mechanics, all fighting games I can think of do that already in one way or another.

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    • Yes because its not like you can canonically play as both at the same time in a story mode. 

      Look, to conclude this, too many assumptions, too many headcanons. There.

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    • Game mechanicsm, again.

      The game doesn´t make any reference in the cutscenes if you and some friend play as the same character in the Subspace Emmisary, so it´s clearly just game mechanics.

      As for the conclusion part, well, we can just put a (for example):

      "High 4-C, Possibly Low 2-C" tier.

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    • Or how about we stay sensible and conclude this is way too many assumptions and headcanon?

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    • Maybe if we just went for a "possibly Low 2-C" tier for every involved character that is applicable.

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    • Well you see Bobiscan, a general requirement is that we stay to the facts, you see VSB is an indexing site, not a fanfic/headcanon one.

      Just. Stop. 

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    • Can it at least be considered canon leaving powerscaling at a side?

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    • No. Not at all. Its more likely that the Dragon Ball videogames are canon to Dragon Ball than Smash is canon to verses like Metal Gear, Castlevania, or Metroid.

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    • What exactly is the problem with using assumptions?

      A "Possibly" rating can easily fix that.

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    • Because at that point, it becomes headcanon.

      "Possibly" at least has some evidence with little assumptions and minor contradictions. 

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    • "Possibly" is, as its name implies, for things that are possible. Which is not the case here.

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    • Taken from the Attack Potency page:

      "Possibly

      Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

      This case already has some evidence, a few assumptions and minor contradictions, it´s also technically possible, so it should be considered at least.

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    • "This case already has some evidence, a few assumptions and minor contradictions."

      Have you not been reading anything we've stated? No evidence for canonicity, more assumptions that 10000 BC science, and contradictions like if the whole of Marvel Comics was packed into a game.

      @Saikou, I'm a just start making a thread to ban this topic, unless there already is one?

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    • The fact that we have to make a rule on this topic is just... sad. And no, no specific rule on this afaik.

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    • You realize Zelda alone proves this can’t be canon, right? For Smash Ultimate, OoT Ganon, MM Link, BotW Link, WW Link, and ALBW Zelda are all in one game. Not only are they all from different periods in time, spanning hundreds to thousands of years, but some of them are from different timelines altogether.

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    • It´s clear that at this point, stuff that´s kept as quetionable at best is kept as a "eh, let´s just put it as not canon" just for preference.

      Again, I´ll feel satisfied if you can at least say that technically there´s a chance for it being canon, even leaving powerscaling at a side.

      And if you´re going to make that rule for a topic to not discuss, at least put my threads as examples, they should work well enought.

      Edit:

      Huh, Cal, I noticed your edit to be more clear, even if it was two months later.

      Two words: Hyrule Warriors

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    • https://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:2053451

      It's clear at this point, that you're making stuff up as you go.

      You're literally telling us to even remotely consider something like Smash Bros canon to the series that are in it, completely ignoring how it absolutely does not work within the worlds in it.

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    • Another thing. For Pokémon, Pikachu isn’t one or Red’s Pokémon, Red should have no feasible way of fighting Mewtwo with his team, and at that age should have no idea who Lucario and Greninja are.

      For Kirby, it’s clear that he’s using the Smash moveset, but he still has his basic inhale.

      Fire Emblem characters, like Zelda characters, exist hundreds of years apart.

      Squirtle, Greninja, and Mario’s FLUDD don’t instagib the Inklings.

      The massive size fluctuation, from Olimar and Kirby to Mr. Too-big-for-Smash.

      Pretty sure Ritcher and Simon can’t be together with those ages.

      Mega Man can call on X, Geo, and other Mega Men.

      I can probably think of more if you gave me time.

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    • Well, as time usually goes different in different universes, Master Hand simply took them from their worlds, not necesarily in their current date.

      Edit: Also, as thsi got opened somehow, so this may be a surprise for the future, I´m not going to make a new comment and instead just keep it as an edit, this is also so this doesn´t need a reply to be inmediately debunked, as this subject is not up to discussion anymore really, you may contact me in my message wall, however:

      @Cal:

      Not canon for Red then, still applicable to the rest.

      Innale and any copy ability at the same time wouldn´t mix up very well, that would take even mroe debugging and work overall for such an small thing, in other words, game mechanics.

      Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem Warriors, oh and in FE Fates, you can call upon some other FE characters by using an amiibo, and then there´s Wolf Link in BotW...

      They clearly are coated by the "enhancement" Master Hand did when making them have the trophy physiological potential, I mean, Sonic and Mega Man can swim, and Greninja can drown, either that or game mechanics, as one shotting them by those things would easily make them unreliabe for competitive play.

      Again, Master Hand balanced them so the matches can get interesting result, instead of literal  or figurative stomps.

      Same thign can be said for the Zelda cast, again, Master Hand simply took them from different parts of the timeline, not just the "current" part of it.

      It´s likely that some development happened off-screen and Mega Man is now capable of doing that, after all, he can call for Rush, so doing this isn´t too impressive overall.

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    • Not canon for red then, still applicable to the rest.

      So now your argument has changed to "it's all canon except for this one character"? Do you see the issue with that?

      Innale and any copy ability at the same time wouldn´t mix up very well, that would take even mroe debugging and work overall for such an small thing, in other words, game mechanics.

      I do agree that it's kind of a stretch for cal to use gameplay mechanics here but this is a moot point since you appeal to gameplay mechanics for your counterpoints as well.

      Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem Warriors, oh and in FE Fates, you can call upon some other FE characters by using an amiibo, and then there´s Wolf Link in BotW...

      You jump on Cal's case for appealing to gameplay mechanics and now you're bringing up amiibos? And more non-canon games?

      They clearly are coated by the "enhancement" Master Hand did when making them have the trophy physiological potential, I mean, Sonic and Mega Man can swim, and Greninja can drown, either that or game mechanics, as one shotting them by those things would easily make them unreliabe for competitive play.

      Assumption with no evidence behind it. And another appeal to gameplay mechanics that you cannot use because you brought up amiibos earlier.

      Again, Master Hand balanced them so the matches can get interesting result, instead of literal  or figurative stomps.

      Baseless assumption that has nothing to go off of, as has been stated multiple times in this thread. 

      Same thign can be said for the Zelda cast, again, Master Hand simply took them from different parts of the timeline, not just the "current" part of it.

      Again, you're making an assumption that has no statements or evidence behind it.

      It´s likely that some development happened off-screen and Mega Man is now capable of doing that, after all, he can call for Rush, so doing this isn´t too impressive overall.

      Another baseless assumption that has no evidence behind it.

      Stop arguing from repetition. Your points have been refuted multiple times. The fact remains that this assertion of yours is pure headcanon. 

      Not to mention that word of god states that they're toys, and that Smash is about imagination meeting reality. The whole thing takes place in the imagination of MH and CH, meaning these characters are obviously different from their original counterparts. That's a much simpler interpretation than this massive collection of assumptions you're pressing here. How can toys of those characters, brought to life by some guy's imagination, be treated exactly the same as the original canon characters?

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    • They may be toys, but that doesn´t prevent the from still being the "actual" original ones, as MH and CH could have dragged them in to their "imagination".

      Oh well, I guess even I have to admit that this is very ambiguous to the point it can´t be taken as canon, at least for now, as we seriously lack statements to put the stuff more clear, at least to it being canon to the featured franchises.

      As for your question, well, as I said before, they weren´t, they just got dragged in, so they are treated just like the original canon characters, as they would be so, but then again, we lack statements that put it this way (that it´s canon to everyone) and so it simply goes into the non-canon section, at least for now.

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    • Once again, this leads to the inevitable headcanon argument. Not sure why this reopened either, espically since the history of the thread removed that entirely... somehow.

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