To be frank, this is personally one of my favorite ideas I've ever had while coming up with a versus debate. In fact, I'm so happy I managed to find these two in the same tier. that I don't even care if this gets knocked down as a stomp thread. Well, truthfully, I'd rather see this come to fruition, but you get what I mean. Regardless, let's get into this debate! Which of these two multiversal heavy hitters shall claim victory today? Let's find out now!
Ok well looking at both their stats, Agnes seems to have the edge. Death Manip would destroy Asriel but before I give her a vote I need to ask, has she ever used it on someone as powerful as Asriel? Regardless, Agnes counters SAVE and LOAD with her own time manipulation, and her power null seems as good as Asriel's although both aren't amazing. Not voting yet just gonna wait on that
I don't see how instant death automatically overcomes Asriel just refusing to die, which a DETERMINATION user of his level is entirely capable of doing (which was a pretty big part of what Frisk did when the two of them fought).
(This isn't a vote, by the way. I know very little about Agnes.)
I was about to mention that, Azzy, plus I don't think Agnès' Time Manipulation works like people think it works. She's got some Time Magic, sure, which can slow down and stop Asriel for a while or speed herself up, but her Bravely Second is a very limited use technique that allows her to get some free hits on Asriel. She can only do so many before she can't do them anymore, and they certainly won't stop Asriel's SAVE and LOAD abilities.
Agnès has durability negation so even if Asriel has an AP advantage, it shouldn’t be an issue for her.
One thing is being stronger, another is being infinitly stronger.
According to Agnès’s profile, she’s “countlessly” above a baseline 2-B, although countless does not necessarily mean infinite. So it’s safe to say Asriel has the AP advantage. They’re both 4D though so durabilty negation will work.
The difference between countless and infinite is infinite.
And some would work, but she would need to employ those before getting one-shot by a random danmaku hit
True. Asriel is likely the strongest 2-B on this site AP wise. He actually used to be 2-A, but got downgraded because being infinitely stronger than 2-Bs or 2-Cs doesn’t automatically give you 2-A anymore.
Honestly, Agnes is so versatile that she should be able to over come the power difference. She does Stillness and then stacks tons of buffs on herself. I don't recall if she can actually apply debuffs during stillness, but I'm gonna work under the assumption that she can't for now. If he drops Angel of Death immediately out of stillness, he may potentially win, but I doubt he will. Under any other situation, Agnes loads him with a ton of debuffs and potentially just instant deaths him right out of stillness while he tries to navigate and figure out her various defensive abilities
It was agreed that someone winning in speed equal matches by being faster is ridicolous, and with there not being frisk around asriel will just erase everything and recreate the world like he wanted to, and as of now he has an infinite AP advantage to lolnope her defending herself.
Do you have a link to this? Either way, she has enough buffs and debuffs outside of stats to make up for the stat difference, which I do not concede is infinite regardless. If it was, he should be 2-A. She has stillness to guarantee that she has at least enough time to cast them all on herself regardless, and he uses magic so most of his projectiles are going right back in his face
It's litirally the reasoning for his tier, being infinitly above omega, who is above chara.
No. Being infinitly stronger than Low 2-C is low 2-C, same here. There were two arguments about it already.
Now Omega won't scale to chara and Asriel will likely become average 2-B at best, at which point he gets slapped by versatility. Until then, reset gg. Because he will use it 100% as first thing, and it's on tought (Well, on emotion, but same thing).
I get the infinitely above low 2-C is low 2-C, because that's 4th dimensional with no presence on the 5th axis. When you have a presence on the 5th axis, but not an uncountable one, then multiplying your power by infinity should give you 2-A. How does it being otherwise make sense?
Reset won't take her down due to stillness, and she has either death or fate (not fate manip, the move fate) right off the back to potentially win the fight right there
I have too much on my plate with other projects to deal with that policy, but maybe some day I'll address the issue with the staff
Who said anything about being restrained? Stillness nullifies all damage to everyone, essentially, while stillness is in effect, neither side will take any damage or be able to effect eachother. She is player controlled, so that is unknown, but I'm working based off of how I remember other people who had similar builds with stillness and what is the generally best accepted usage for it is
Just wanted to point this out with this bump, since this was why I was so excited for this matchup, but couldn't Agnes just...pacify Asriel, a la Frisk with SAVE? I mean, his primary weakness is a kind person with enough Determination being able to reach out and remind him of who he was. And while she doesn't follow Undertale's mechanics of Determination, I can't think of a more kind or determined person from the Bravely series of games then Agnes. (Maybe Tiz, but, eh, I digress)
Ricsi-viragosi wrote: No, frisk litirally went into asriel's soul, talked the souls he absorbed into submission due to the experience they got totgether and only then could do that.
That's a pretty specific set of circumstances for something so vaguely stated in his profile. Wasn't he just saving those specific souls, and then realized there was one more soul left to save, Asriel? Honestly, I don't see why Agnes can't connect with Asriel outright.
Agnes, in-character, attempts to talk people out of fighting first, and tends to continue to do so if she's forced to fight. She tends to lean towards pacifism and even martyrdom if it's for the good of others, so that tells you the kind of person she is. Even if Asriel himself can't pick up on that, I'm certain some of the other souls would pick up on this, which could help turn the tide in the favor of Agnes.
If Asriel has to be emotionally "forced" to power down, then write up a CRT for it. Because it is extremely unclear on this particularity in his profile, if that's the case.
Actually, I think you made it even more certain you need to make one. Because, as you say, since only people with Determination as a power can break through to him, then that leaves a very niche spot for anyone to expose this weakness of his. Very niche.
Plus, not thinking of Determination as a game mechanic momentarily, isn't it just the willpower to press on, but on a supercharged level, which is something that Agnes has proved she has time and again?
It quiet litirally says determination there. And that is a weakness in general, but like most characters, sba makes it null by putting him in a fighting mentality.
Game mechanic? How do you need to assume it isn't? It objectivelu isn't, it's part of the lore. And no, determination is a power that allows human souls to bend time, ressurect, heal from any damage and recreate thousands of timelines. So being really determinated ain't cutting it.
Being in-character but willing to kill due to SBA, wouldn't that mean that she could talk him down? Also, the rules for SBA literally state, "This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma." So, yes, she can convince him to power down.
Fine. Determination is a special power exclusive to the humans of Undertale. I get it. I'll drop that.
Talking him down isn't something she can do tough. He was planning on murdering his best friend, rewinding time, and doing it at-nauseum for all of eternity.
He only got "talked down" after the souls inside him (the source of all his emotions) got reminded that they were friends with Frisk. Even if Agnes could somehow got to the souls, Asgore; Undyne; Alphys and Sans would not be convinced by her.
Also, she has limited magic, and can't do any without the Asterisks. Sooner or later, she runs out of energy. Also, most of her attacks won't do anything, but the goat definently will. My vote for Goat God.