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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    06:53, January 23, 2016

    You can consider this a continuation of this thread, which appears to have been forgotten in the mist of time. In addition to the previous feats (which were accepted by most people, and at least 2 admins didn't really object to the Claycia calc), here's even more feats :

    A) When Dark Nebula unleashes his true form, we can see that all stars and celestial bodies around them get destroyed as they vanish in a diameter of 1000s of light years, until even the far away galaxy became visible. You can have a better look at all the stars (the big luminous balls) and celestial matter surrounding them before it gets destroyed here when Kirby is chasing a dazed Nebula. Solid 4-A+. Now, I KNOW the 1st set of objections that will strike your mind, but before you say them lemme tell you this : Do you know Lumine from MMX ? He DOES the exact same thing (but less impressive), and it was accepted just fine. Thus, any objection you may have to this will also apply to Lumine.

    EDITED B) Now this one's the most interesting. In several parts of the game, Kirby takes portals into a separate parallel universe, and then has to run away from a massive wave of unknown matter that is gradually destroying that part of the universe, including all the celestial bodies in the background. Yet, Kirby can push away and temporarily block the anti-matter wave under his own power to buy time, and is the only character in the team who can do so. This is clearly at least 4-A+ and possibly far higher.

    C) I made a calc for NOVA's KE here. It's just a random, and it got a casual star level.

    D) Marx and Nova's profiles both admit that they're MFTL+, which is true since they flew from the galaxy's end (NOVA's summon point) to Pop Star in seconds. Kirby's profile says only FTL even though he's superior to both of them. See how messy his profile is ? Other MFTL+ feats include cruising past solar systems in secondsDark Matter flying past numerous galaxies in seconds and to a lesser extent, this. Oh, and 1 more calc.

    E) "Power & Abilities" section. Boy that needs work. Just compare the rootingly updated profiles to Kirby's outdated forgotten profiles. You'll see the difference.

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    • MFTL+ flight speed seems reasonable, but the animations in question seem far to vague, indistinct, and badly animated, to draw any solid conclusions from.

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    • The 1st animation is exactly like MMX Lumine's, since the latter was accepted Nebula's should logically be as well. The animation being 2-D doesn't go against the feat itself, and both animations have way better quality than the one that gave Ristar  his 4-A tier.

      These kind of animations are even usually used to analyse the feats of Retro characters.

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    • Well, those profile statistics were added by individual members without public scrutiny, not officially accepted by staff members or myself.

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    • I checked Ristar's supposed feats, and they seemed even more unreliable, so I placed the character at Unknown ratings.

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    • I also couldn't find Lumine's profile here.

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    • Wait, what make the feats unreliable? It looks rather straightforward to me. And considering the age of the games, we can't exactly get a better visual perspective.

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    • Well, I can't explicitly see any large number of celestial bodies being destroyed in the first animation. There is the contour of what may be the nearest sun getting destroyed, so I suppose that might land it at 4-C, or possibly 4-B if the planets of the solar system were destroyed as well (but I didn't notice any), but I don't notice any proof of 4-A.

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    • The feat is of luminosity, it by default doesn't destroy anything.

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    • Okay. But is this a children's book version of the universe, with extremely small planets, stars, and distances, or based on real ones?

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    • It's still a galaxy. The game being made for kids doesn't really take away from this fact. Besides, size in gaming not making sense is rather common, like how the worlds in KH1 are only a few times larger than the Gummi Ship to our perspective.

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    • Are you certain of that it is not like Super Mario Galaxy? It seems to be a rather strange setting: http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Planet_Popstar

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    • I'm honestly not sure (Having never played Ristar), but sizing issues are common in children's material, but I don't see why we should take them as fact.

      Better to ask ClassicGameGuys, he made the calc(s).

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    • All right. Although I was talking about Kirby.

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    • The Everlasting
      The Everlasting removed this reply because:
      Unnecessary.
      05:04, December 31, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • @Antvasima : The 1st animation's full contours can be seen here. Notice the stationary luminous balls (which are stars at different distances). Later, when Nebula unleashes his power, the closest celestial bodies we can see anymore are thousands of light years away, which is a straightforward 4-A I assume since the shockwave extended on that much distance. And the explosion in the 2nd animation is larger than the constellation to the right.

      As for sizes and distances in the Kirbyverse, they're even larger and more exaggerated than our own, Pop Star is a planet so massive even it's atmosphere has a moon, and distances in the Kirbyverse, even between planets, are constantly referenced to be light years, like here and here. So no problem here.

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    • Hmm. I suppose, but I will need input from more people. I will probably have to highlight this.

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    • "The 1st animation is exactly like MMX Lumine's, since the latter was accepted Nebula's should logically be as well."

      Um Lumine's was accepted because he created a dimension with a star in it and he destroys said dimension if 30 seconds pass before you can beat him. I had to argue for 4 pages that he destroyed the star to no dice and it only got accepted after Charge_Shot pointed out Lumine destroying the entire dimension if you fail against him.

      Are you certain they weren't just teleported elsewhere or there was an illusionary distortion of some sort?

      "The animation being 2-D doesn't go against the feat itself, and both animations have way better quality than the one that gave Ristar  his 4-A tier."

      This would be the case at any rate from skimming. Luminosity is measured off of surface area, not volume

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    • @CGG : I'm not against Lumine's feat, I just pointed out that the exact same thing happened with Dark Nebula in this case. It's definitely a feat of unleashing destruction, since what Nebula did in that scene was awakening from his weakened form and unleash his power.

      And there's both Claycia from the previous thread and Necrodeus' death explosion.

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    • Hmmm, well, I think I should start by creating profiles for Dark Nebula and Necrodeus.

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    • Reply to ImagoDesatrollante : Well, not sure what you mean by "there's tons of feats that contradict this", but if you're trying to say they're outliers, lemme say why that's wrong with these reasons :

      A) He has at least 4 MSS feats. "At least" 4 of them. That's too many to overlook.

      B) Kirby never lost or struggled against the final bosses, and is usually after the final battle perfectly fine with no scratch, only a silly smile on his face. They can't even push him into exhaustion lol. So yeah, he doesn't have a "contradicting limit".

      C) Kirby's enemies get stronger with every generation.  Overall, Kirby has : 3 casual planet lvl feats (Beating Nightmare & Dark Matter soldiers + Megaton punch), 3 or 4 star level feats (Overpowering NOVA's KE, beating Marx, Hypernova calc and other black hole calcs), 5 MSS feats (Beating Claycia, Dark Crafter, Dark Nebula, Necrodeus, and Dark Nebula's supposed creator 02), 1 universal feat (Magolor). See how gradual and consistent his showings are ?

      D) Beating Magolor was already considered an outlier, saying that all of Kirby's other greatest feats are outliers and sticking only with his lowest showings is clearly direct injustice against the series. ESPECIALLY since his feats are far more consistent than most other characters here.

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    • Well first of all everything Black Hole is bleh to calc from, since Black Holes in Kirby are all "Video game black hole" so using real-life logic on them may not be good. Also Black hole Hypernova comes from a mistranslation.

      The main problem is that Kirby shows the same amount of difficulty against his planets enemies than his MSS enemies. Even if you go by the logic that he gets stronger with the new games, there is the fact that Queen Sectonia is weaker than Magolor, yet he needed a power up to defeated her.

      Also where does MSS Necrodeus comes from?

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    • Yeah, I just casually mentioned them. We won't consider them.

      Actually, I have 2 things to say about this :

      1-Game characters showing the same amount of difficulty against foes of massively different levels is waaay too common in fiction. For instance, the FF3 team showed the same amount of difficulty against Garuda as they did against the Cloud of Darkness, Mario had just as much trouble with Cakletta as he does with Bowser, ect.

      2-Kirby always beats his foes effortlessly, how can you tell that he's using the same amount of effort for every fight ? In fact, it's safer to scale Sectonia to Kirby than the other way around (Since he had already established MSS AP by then and Sectonia is featless), and Sectonia's true two last forms (When she absorbs 4 MF and when her soul survives) were defeated by Kirby in his base form (easily).

      Necrodeus has 2 MSS feats. The 1st is there above and the second one is explained in the 2nd part of this calc.

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    • Bleh, there is not much proof that he had a harder time against the MSS enemies either, so that works either way.

      As for the first feat, having a really big explosion in the sky doesn't equal MSS. We have no way of clearly scaling the explosion, except by the fact that we don't see him anymore, but that doesn't requires to be much far away from the viewer from that. Yes, I know there is stars and shit in the background, but they are behind the explosion, so they don't help with the size either.

      For the Stars stones, even though it is very likely Necrodeus, it's not exactly confirmed, so a possibly 4-C/B/A would be better.

      About the Dark Nebual thingy, err, do we even know what's in the background? Doesn't looks like stars, planets, or galaxies, just random space matter. It could be anything, so moving it out of the way to see a galaxy doesn't seems much feat-worthy to me.

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    • Yeah, but meh, that's common in fiction.

      You make a good point, but I'd argue that there's, in fact, there's a way to know how far Necrodeus was. Looking closely, Necrodeus disappears first, then follows the energy surrounding him. Via angsize formulas, we can know how far he was launched, and the speed at which he was launched then we can calculate the output of the explosion via measuring it's surface and luminosity. For it to be visible that far away, it would land on stellar level. And then there's the Sun stones thing.

      Yeah. Check out the contours. Those big luminous balls are stars at different distances. And the fight happened in the centers of a separate galaxy, so MSS destruction is necessary to clear space so much that the only thing visible anymore is a far away galaxy.

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    • Er, you don't have to be that much faraway to be non-visible. Considering that Necrodeus isn't much bigger than mini-kirbys, who are much smaller than normal kirbys who are in turn only 8 Inches tall, it wouldn't take much distance for Necrodeus to be beyond sight. Too lazy to make a calc for that but eh.

      Not sure if those are stars, seems pretty vague. Although it is true that if it is in the middle of a galaxy, seeing another like that must requires some good clean up.

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    • I am certain that isn't even star level. Also keep in mind Nerocdeus isn't that much bigger than all the Kirby's - which are smaller than the original 8 inch Kirby - I have doubt he flew far at all, or  I doubt that explosion was impressive.

      ...No. Haha, this is horribly unquantifiable. It was just a really big flash. He could've teleported. He could've reality warped. Also like with Magolor there was really small galaxies and stuff so no, not MSS.

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    • @SaikouTouhou : You make another good point about Necrodeus' death. I just assumed that based on how he becomes invisible while the luminous energy around him was still large and there. But oh well, he's still responsible for transforming a hundred stars into gems. Btw, in the Kirbyverse, the only celestial bodies we ever see in space are planets, stars, galaxies and more stars. 

      @ImagoDestrollante : Absolutely not. Nebula was dazed and weakened, and it just awakened, unleashing it's power. That resulted in, like Saikou put it, "a serious clean up". The same battlefield is still there. And like previously mentioned, this feat is just the exact copy of Lumine's feat. The latter was accepted for X & Zero, this one is even more clear cut, so yes, MSS+.

      Btw, which "small galaxy" are you talking about ? I don't know where people got that from, and in fact, astronomical distances and sizes in the Kirbyverse are far more exaggerated than our own. For example, Pop Star is an insanely large planet as even it's stratosphere has a giant moon (what the creators said), and distances even between planets are consistenly measured in light years like here and here.

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    • We must put this on hold for a few days, due to the AP revisions.

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    • That's right.

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    • You can notify us about it after the project is done. It could take up to 10 days I think, but may go much quicker for all that I know.

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    • Jesus Christ where do I begin. 

      A) "we can see that all stars and celestial bodies around them get destroyed " this is completely dishonest. I can tell that the gif has been edited as it abruptly cuts to the next form of the boss Kirby is fighting and the bubble on the bottom screen surrounding one of the items kirby is holding has already been popped. The gage for whatever attack Kirby was filling up in the first part of the gif abruptly cuts off which is another indication.

      B)  Necrodeus' death. " Look closely : He gets launched far into the depths of space until no pixel is left of him. Then the explosion that ensues rivals the constellations around it in size." This is forced perspective. There is no way to prove his distance and size relative to the objects around him.

      C) "I made a calc for NOVA's KE here. It's just a random, and it got a casual star level." You should have someone else doublecheck this calc. Preferably someone from the OBD.

      D)" cruising past solar systems in seconds " "Dark Matter flying past numerous galaxies in seconds " "this. " These are all cases of forced perspective. Again there is no way to tell the distance and size of the characters relative to the background here.


      "and 1 more calc. " I think it is important to note that this calc was debunked in its own comment section by Regicide and has yet to be reevaluated. 

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    • Dude. AP revision. Content revision threads on hold. Wait.

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    • Okay. Thank you for the input.

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    • @Xolon : Normally we should wait until AP revision is over, but I can't ignore what you said about me being dishonest, because it's sure that you have NO idea what you're talking about when you say that the gif has been edited. The reason you see Kirby in a different position is because you can still move during the flash, and the item bubbles don't pop in that game, they disappear completely when you use them. You could at least see a a Youtube video of the battle (2:00) to make sure. See how the video is exactly like the gif ? Good, now take back those false accusations of "edited gif" please. T.T

      Also, "forced perspective" isn't a term used with direct feats. They scrolled past galaxies which is only possible if you're MFTL+, then they're MFTL+. There isn't much way around it.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      @Xolon : Normally we should wait until AP revision is over, but I can't ignore what you said about me being dishonest, because it's sure that you have NO idea what you're talking about when you say that the gif has been edited. The reason you see Kirby in a different position is because you can still move during the flash, and the item bubbles don't pop in that game, they disappear completely when you use them. You could at least see a a Youtube video of the battle (2:00) to make sure. See how the video is exactly like the gif ? Good, now take back those false accusations of "edited gif" please. T.T

      Also, "forced perspective" isn't a term used with direct feats. They scrolled past galaxies which is only possible if you're MFTL+, then they're MFTL+. There isn't much way around it.

      Aight. You didn't edit it. BUT. Neither the video or gif show stars and celestial bodies getting destroyed like you claimed. It looks more to me like the boss teleported Kirby and himself to a different setting. 

      These celestial bodies being far away in the background does matter. Distance screws with perspective. The darkmatter gif you posted for example https://giant.gfycat.com/DelightfulSplendidHookersealion.gif . Are we supposed to believe that planet is as large as a galaxy? Or that he flew the entire length of a galaxy just by leaving the planet's atmospere? The perspective is screwy here and it is likely the same with those other feats. 

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    • Nope, I already said it before. The battlefield is still the same, and what Nebula did in that scene was awaken from a dazed form and unleash it's power. What do you think would that happen in that case ? And, it's a copy of Lumine's feat, with the latter being accepted as reasonable.

      How do I explain it. The galaxies at the beginning of the gif are behind the planet, though for them to appear to be that big means they're fairly close (for an astronomical distance, they're still light years apart from each other). Scrolling past several galaxies light years apart is still MFTL+, because, say they were any slower, they would need a larger gap of time to scroll past 2 galaxies even with said perspective. Don't matta though, Kirby still has tons of other MFTL+ feats such as scaling from Marx and NOVA who travel from the galaxy's end to Popstar in seconds and the other feats from the previous thread.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      Nope, I already said it before. The battlefield is still the same, and what Nebula did in that scene was awaken from a dazed form and unleash it's power. What do you think would that happen in that case ? And, it's a copy of Lumine's feat, with the latter being accepted as reasonable.

      How do I explain it. The galaxies at the beginning of the gif are behind the planet, though for them to appear to be that big means they're fairly close (for an astronomical distance, they're still light years apart from each other). Scrolling past several galaxies light years apart is still MFTL+, because, say they were any slower, they would need a larger gap of time to scroll past 2 galaxies even with said perspective. Don't matta though, Kirby still has tons of other MFTL+ feats such as scaling from Marx and NOVA who travel from the galaxy's end to Popstar in seconds and the other feats from the previous thread.

      It doesn't look like anything is destroyed in the video or gif. The scenery changes. That's it. So the platform Kirby and the boss are standing on could've just been teleported with them. 

      "the galaxy's end"  Did you use the wrong link here? All I see is the title screen for Meta Knight Ultra when I click that. 

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    • I just said that he "awakened". Why would teleportation occur when the being is unleashing his power ? Not that Dark Nebula (or any of the Dark Matters) have teleportation powers anyways. And the battlefield is still there. And... didn't I say this is a copy (literally) of Lumine's feat ?

      It's the right link, the last phrase in the title screen.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      I just said that he "awakened". Why would teleportation occur when the being is unleashing his power ? Not that Dark Nebula (or any of the Dark Matters) have teleportation powers anyways. And the battlefield is still there. And... didn't I say this is a copy (literally) of Lumine's feat ?

      It's the right link, the last phrase in the title screen.

      Nothing implies anything in the background being destroyed to me. It looks more like things are added to the background. But there's no indication an entire new background was created so it is likelier to be teleportation.


      And with that last phrase there is no time frame given so it is useless as a feat. 

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    • Xolon is making big sense to me here.

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    • I thing you're ignoring what I said Xolon. Did you pay attention to the part where I say the being has unleashed it's power (something that would cause destruction), and that none of the DM invaders have teleportation abilities, and that the battlefield is still there ?

      "Things were added" ? Are you for real ? One look is enough to tell you that things disappeared, not the contrary. 

      No offense, but you show a heavy lack of knowledge about the series. The timeframe is in the cutscenes... not in the phrase.

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    • ^ We don't allow cinematic time here.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      I thing you're ignoring what I said Xolon. Did you pay attention to the part where I say the being has unleashed it's power (something that would cause destruction), and that none of the DM invaders have teleportation abilities, and that the battlefield is still there ?

      "Things were added" ? Are you for real ? One look is enough to tell you that things disappeared, not the contrary. 

      No offense, but you show a heavy lack of knowledge about the series. The timeframe is in the cutscenes... not in the phrase.

      Arachnaemaniac answered your second point pretty clearly so i'll address your other one. Nothing in the original background looks like a celestial body. It all looks mostly barren and light blue with a few brush strokes of other colors here and there. Then it changes to a solar system/galaxy with a bunch of stars around it. That is why to me it looks more like something is added to the background. There was barely anything there to start with. And teleportation is just as likely as your theory if not moreso since weaker bosses like Marx can teleport. The crystal stage could've just been teleported with them. So even though it looks like the same battlefield to you just because of the stage ground nothing proves that. Nothing definitively proves stars and celestial bodies were destroyed like you claimed. You are reaching from a highly interpretive background change to get the result you want. 

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    • @Xolon : Because Nebula is stronger than Marx doesn't mean he must have teleportation. Attack potency isn't related to abilities and hax. Dark Matter are one of the most consistent and persistent creatures in the series. But not even once have they established teleportation abilities.

      And this is not me trying to get a forced result. Bluntly speaking, you're trying to create a forced downplay scenario by saying that he'll teleport even though :

      -Nebula has no reason to teleport the battlefield, and that's a very random thought. Even more so since he can't teleport, and that teleportation can't occur when Nebula is unleashing power in that scene, only destruction.

      -They were in the middle of a galaxy. For another one to appear, take a guess at how serious the clean up must've been ? 

      -This is Lumine's feat V2. Are you saying that the one who implied Lumine's feat is "fake" ? (you know it's not). Lemme get this straight. Lumine's feat was accepted, it would be flat out injustice for this one to not be.

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    • You can remind me about this topic in a while when the content revision project is done, so I can highlight it, and possibly ask for more input.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      @Xolon : Because Nebula is stronger than Marx doesn't mean he must have teleportation. Attack potency isn't related to abilities and hax. Dark Matter are one of the most consistent and persistent creatures in the series. But not even once have they established teleportation abilities.

      And this is not me trying to get a forced result. Bluntly speaking, you're trying to create a forced downplay scenario by saying that he'll teleport even though :

      -Nebula has no reason to teleport the battlefield, and that's a very random thought. Even more so since he can't teleport, and that teleportation can't occur when Nebula is unleashing power in that scene, only destruction.

      -They were in the middle of a galaxy. For another one to appear, take a guess at how serious the clean up must've been ? 

      -This is Lumine's feat V2. Are you saying that the one who implied Lumine's feat is "fake" ? (you know it's not). Lemme get this straight. Lumine's feat was accepted, it would be flat out injustice for this one to not be.

      I've never heard of Lumine's feat so I can't comment on that. The point i'm trying to make is that destruction is not explicitly shown in that scene. You think it is implied but that is not good enough as evidence. The fact that it can be interpreted multiple ways makes it null. We can't take one interpretation and call it fact. 

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    • @Antvasima : Thanks.

      @Xolon : I linked to Lumine's feat in the thread. You can argue in it's case and Nebula's that there's 2 interpretations of the feat and whatnot, but the second interpretation was ruled out because it relies on an ability the character's doesn't have, thus making the 1st interpretation the only solid one.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      @Antvasima : Thanks.

      @Xolon : I linked to Lumine's feat in the thread. You can argue in it's case and Nebula's that there's 2 interpretations of the feat and whatnot, but the second interpretation was ruled out because it relies on an ability the character's doesn't have, thus making the 1st interpretation the only solid one.

      And has Dark Nebula or any other form of Dark Matter ever shown destruction on this level outside of this murky interpretive cutscene? All we can assume is that the background changes somehow. Anything outside of that is an unfounded assumption. It would help your case if the order of the backgrounds was different since the first background looks barren while the second one looks to have more celestial bodies yet you claim Dark Nebula destroyed celestial bodies to get to the second background? 

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    • The 2nd "background" doesn't have more celestial bodies, but less. It's not that a new galaxy appears, it's that the star systems that were blocking it's view disappeared. They were in the middle of a galaxy, with 100s/1000s of luminous star systems covering the view. For all of them to disappear like that and for another far away galaxy to appear, one would need to destroy all celestial matter on an astronomical range.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      The 2nd "background" doesn't have more celestial bodies, but less. It's not that a new galaxy appears, it's that the star systems that were blocking it's view disappeared. They were in the middle of a galaxy, with 100s/1000s of luminous star systems covering the view. For all of them to disappear like that and for another far away galaxy to appear, one would need to destroy all celestial matter on an astronomical range.

      What proof do you have that they're luminous star systems? You're assuming they are. All the first setting looks like is a light blue background. That background doesn't really resemble what you say it is and there isn't any text supporting this either. 

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    • They were in the middle of a galaxy. So it doesn't matter if you think it resembles or not. And the blue background isn't the only thing we see in the setting anyways, but also several luminous spheres at different distances from each other.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      They were in the middle of a galaxy. So it doesn't matter if you think it resembles or not. And the blue background isn't the only thing we see in the setting anyways, but also several luminous spheres at different distances from each other.

      All I can say is that your proof is circumstantial. Background changing=/=Background being destroyed. You need more direct proof for this to be accepted. 

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    • There's nothing that could've happened aside from destruction. Lumine's same feat was accepted. It's a straightforward feat alright, exaggerated doubt isn't necessary.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      There's nothing that could've happened aside from destruction. Lumine's same feat was accepted. It's a straightforward feat alright, exaggerated doubt isn't necessary.

      Nothing else could've happened? What proof do you have for that statement? 

      The stage could've moved simply been telekinetically moved somewhere else. teleportation is possible. it could very well be an illusionary background change. There are many possibilities.

      If you want to claim that those aren't possible because Dark Nebula has never shown those abilities before then that eliminates the possibility of constellation destruction too as he has never shown that before either. All possibilities are outliers. So none of them is better than the other. 

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    • Xolon
      Xolon removed this reply because:
      accidental double post
      16:22, January 12, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Destructive power is something every character in fiction has, what do you mean Nebula hasn't shown that ?

      It's just that your interpretation rely on both something the character doesn't have, and some very far away thought, something that Nebula has no business doing in that scene. 

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      Destructive power is something every character in fiction has, what do you mean Nebula hasn't shown that ?

      It's just that your interpretation rely on both something the character doesn't have, and some very far away thought, something that Nebula has no business doing in that scene. 

      He's never shown destructive power of that level outside of your one interpretation of that one specific scene. So it would be an outlier for him. It would be an outlier for him to use other abilities to change the scenery as well so they're on equal standing. They're all equally unsubstantiated. 

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    • Um, outliers aren't so easily distribued, especially for a character that appears only for few minutes and had the chance to do only 1 feat. If we do that, then most characters would be featless.

      Also, "illusion" isn't right, because if it were the case, then everything would be back to normal and the illusion would disappear after Nebula's defeat, but it weren't the case.

      Teleportation isn't something present in the Dark Matter family, and why would Nebula teleport an entire battlefield, hm ? When he flashed, he awakened by unleashing his power which was a wave of destruction. Is this really so hard to understand ?

      What is more, final bosses doing "illusions" or "teleporting battlefields" never happened in the Kirby series. On the other hand, destroying all surroundings pre, mid or post-battle happened more times than I can remember with Kirby's final bosses.

      I think you can see the only "interpretation" (calling it that is an understatement) that holds the only water.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      Um, outliers aren't so easily distribued, especially for a character that appears only for few minutes and had the chance to do only 1 feat. If we do that, then most characters would be featless.

      Also, "illusion" isn't right, because if it were the case, then everything would be back to normal and the illusion would disappear after Nebula's defeat, but it weren't the case.

      Teleportation isn't something present in the Dark Matter family, and why would Nebula teleport an entire battlefield, hm ? When he flashed, he awakened by unleashing his power which was a wave of destruction. Is this really so hard to understand ?

      What is more, final bosses doing "illusions" or "teleporting battlefields" never happened in the Kirby series. On the other hand, destroying all surroundings pre, mid or post-battle happened more times than I can remember with Kirby's final bosses.

      I think you can see the only "interpretation" (calling it that is an understatement) that holds the only water.

      Is Dark Nebula in any way implied to be the most powerful member of the Dark Matter family? No other member has a feat on that level. Also you leave the setting as soon as Dark Nebula dies so there is no way to tell if the illusion is undone if it were an illusion. And heck looking at the fight again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gap4lZd5n8c I see more credence to it being an illusion with how the background changes colors. Is Dark Nebula ever shown or implied to have power over colors? I don't think so. 

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    • Dark Matter invaders are mostly featless, but even the regular soldiers can reach the size of large planets, let alone high-ranked ones. Dark Crafter is superior to Claycia who created Seventopia.

      After Nebula's death in the 1st playthrough, you'll have to wait for a big chest to fall (if my memory serves right), and there's a cutscene of Kirby flying there afterwards, but the beautiful multi-star "background" before Nebula's awakening never comes back, so it was gone for good. And I think you just ignored all of this :

      "What is more, final bosses doing "illusions" or "teleporting battlefields" never happened in the Kirby series, nor do they need a reason to do so. On the other hand, destroying all surroundings pre, mid or post-battle happened more times than I can remember with Kirby's final bosses."

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    • Hmm. Fastsword's interpretation is starting to sound more convincing for me.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      Dark Matter invaders are mostly featless, but even the regular soldiers can reach the size of large planets, let alone high-ranked ones. Dark Crafter is superior to Claycia who created Seventopia.

      After Nebula's death in the 1st playthrough, you'll have to wait for a big chest to fall (if my memory serves right), and there's a cutscene of Kirby flying there afterwards, but the beautiful multi-star "background" before Nebula's awakening never comes back, so it was gone for good. And I think you just ignored all of this :

      "What is more, final bosses doing "illusions" or "teleporting battlefields" never happened in the Kirby series, nor do they need a reason to do so. On the other hand, destroying all surroundings pre, mid or post-battle happened more times than I can remember with Kirby's final bosses."

      "(if my memory serves right)" 

      link a cutscene. Memory alone isn't good enough as evidence. 

      So you're admitting no other Dark Matter invader has a feat on that level? That lends more credence to it being an outlier for their race. As well as being an outlier for the kirby series. 

      Dark Nebula doesn't have any reason to destroy the background while transforming either yet that is what you claim he did. Kirby shows no reaction of horror either which is odd considering the loss of life that would have to had occur. And again the background changed colors during the fight. That alone is reason enough to believe illusions could be responsible. Bring your evidence that contradicts this instead of goinf off of memory.

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    • ... Xolon, I just said there's Dark Crafter, a being more powerful than Claycia who created Seventopia. "Outliers" ? Did you know that Magolor is universal, and that he was considered an outlier for Kirby ? Do you think there's a series in this wiki where every good feat is written off as "outlier" ?

      So Nebula would have no reason to cause destruction when he awakens and unleashes his power ? Wat. Well then tell that to Nintendo, because that's what they're doing with most of Kirby's final bosses. Also, there's no "look of horror" in Kirby's face when destruction is caused in any of the other cases either. Even when an entire home universe full of planets with living beings collapsed in RtD... he didn't care. Also, "look of horror" is irrelevant and minor detail. 

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAV_WDo57Q Also, the background's color doesn't change. The galaxy stays blue if you watch closely, only the corners of the screen clearly change to red, green, blue depending on which elemental form Nebula is using. That's right, it's Nebula's color flashing the screen, not "illusions".

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      ... Xolon, I just said there's Dark Crafter, a being more powerful than Claycia who created Seventopia. "Outliers" ? Did you know that Magolor is universal, and that he was considered an outlier for Kirby ? Do you think there's a series in this wiki where every good feat is written off as "outlier" ?

      So Nebula would have no reason to cause destruction when he awakens and unleashes his power ? Wat. Well then tell that to Nintendo, because that's what they're doing with most of Kirby's final bosses. Also, there's no "look of horror" in Kirby's face when destruction is caused in any of the other cases either. Even when an entire home universe full of planets with living beings collapsed in RtD... he didn't care. Also, "look of horror" is irrelevant and minor detail. 

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAV_WDo57Q Also, the background's color doesn't change. The galaxy stays blue if you watch closely, only the corners of the screen clearly change to red, green, blue depending on which elemental form Nebula is using. That's right, it's Nebula's color flashing the screen, not "illusions".

      We do not know the size of another dimension. There is no clear indication it is anything other than a small pocket dimension so Magalor is not universal.

      Is Dark Crafter even part of the dark invader race? And creating seventopia is not that good of a feat if a timeframe isn't specified. He could've created things piece by piece over a long time. 

      He transformed. That isn't proof that he destroyed anything. You see it as his unleashing his power but there is no direct proof of that. 

      Nebula's current color flashing across the background would have to be an illusion unless he has some unknown power over color. And you still haven't provided that evidence that you "recalled" of Kirby coming back to the same setting and it being the same.

      I know you're desperate for a boost for Kirby and the series dude but give it a rest and wait for something more conclusive. This vague cutscene isn't much of anything. 

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    • I won't argue with you over Magolor and Claycia, both of them were solved in previous threads (I didn't even take part in Magolor's thread lol), and I have no business going over them again.

      Nebula was in a weakened state and trapped in a magical chess for 1000s of years. When he was freed from it, he was still dazed, but after a while, yes, he "awakened".

      Wait... Nebula's body's flashy color reflected on the screen is an "illusion"... ? So when I'm flashing a lamp in a dark room, I'm creating an illusion ? Pay attention to your logic Xolon.

      I posted that link there. Nebula dies, and keeps decomposing for several seconds, and everything remains the same. The cutscene where Kirby flies away that follows doesn't show one bit of the beautiful space that was destroyed.

      It's not actually vague. Keep in mind that Lumine's feat was the same, and that this scene isn't something unheard of in the Kirby series (contrary to *cough*illusions*cough*)

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:

      I won't argue with you over Magolor and Claycia, both of them were solved in previous threads (I didn't even take part in Magolor's thread lol), and I have no business going over them again.

      Nebula was in a weakened state and trapped in a magical chess for 1000s of years. When he was freed from it, he was still dazed, but after a while, yes, he "awakened".

      Wait... Nebula's body's flashy color reflected on the screen is an "illusion"... ? So when I'm flashing a lamp in a dark room, I'm creating an illusion ? Pay attention to your logic Xolon.

      I posted that link there. Nebula dies, and keeps decomposing for several seconds, and everything remains the same. The cutscene where Kirby flies away that follows doesn't show one bit of the beautiful space that was destroyed.

      It's not actually vague. Keep in mind that Lumine's feat was the same, and that this scene isn't something unheard of in the Kirby series (contrary to *cough*illusions*cough*)

      You can't change the color of the night sky with a color lamp. That is entirely different than a dark room.


      He transformed. But that in and of itself is not proof he destroyed anything.


      You don't have any proof Kirby isn't already far away from the setting of the fight he just fought when you see him flying away. All we know is he is somewhere in space. 


      It wouldn't be vague if there were actually any statements explicitly implying destruction happens in that scene. Yet there isn't. 

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    • Are you really trying to link luminosity with illusion magic ? Are you serious ? Btw, what you said about "it can't change the color of the night sky" is scientifically wrong.

      In fact, do you realise that luminosity itself is energy and that it's possible to calculate how much energy is needed to outshine that much space like this and this ? Like in those calculations, it'll be 4-A.

      You just ignored this : "Nebula dies, and keeps decomposing for several seconds, and everything remains the same."

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    • As promised, I highlighted the thread after the AP revision project was done.

      I am personally leaning towards Fastsword88's interpretation at this point.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      I am personally leaning towards Fastsword88's interpretation at this point.

      Yeah. I was with Xolon until he started talking about illusions.

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    • Same, I support Fastsword

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    • I'm with Fastword here. I may have not fully understand all of this (it's been a while since i last saw this thread), but with what Fast's words (no pun intended) are on the matter of the feat(s) in question, i'm in support of the characters being upgraded.

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    • @Fastsword 

      Fine. It's possible that the color didn't change because of it being an illusion.

      However I maintain that because there is no clear indication destruction happens in that scene. That still means either teleportation or it being an illusion is possible.

      And even if this were to be accepted. I'd say it'd just be an upgrade for Dark Nebula and is an outlier for Kirby just as fighting Magalor is. On average Kirby fights Large Planet Level opponents after all. And there's no indication of him getting a massive upgrade just for one or two games. 

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    • I previously explained multiple times that saying this is an outlier too is injustice against the series, Xolon. And like CGG already showed in the previous thread, even B. Waddle Dee is solid 5-A, and that's only by considering Pop Star to have a similar size to Earth, while it's not since the creators said that the stratosphere contains a "giant moon", making from Pop Star's stratosphere alone 3400+ kms wide while Earth's is only 34 to 42 kms wide. Imagine Pop Star's total size (I should do a calc about it sometime).

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      I previously explained multiple times that saying this is an outlier too is injustice against the series, Xolon. And like CGG already showed in the previous thread, even B. Waddle Dee is solid 5-A, and that's only by considering Pop Star to have a similar size to Earth, while it's not since the creators said that the stratosphere contains a "giant moon", making from Pop Star's stratosphere alone 3400+ kms wide while Earth's is only 34 to 42 kms wide. Imagine Pop Star's total size (I should do a calc about it sometime).

      The moon being giant doesn't prove anything. Our moon is giant in comparison to a lot of things. So that doesn't mean the creators meant it Popstar is much larger than Earth.

      Out of the 3 opponents that are in Megaton Punch (cause I assume that is what we're basing this off of) Waddle Dee is the weakest and can't punch through Popstar completely http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Megaton_Punch

      Large Planet + is consistent for the series and most bosses are at that level. Even if we did assume complete fodder is planet level that wouldn't really contradict anything as Large Planet level +>>>>>Planet level. 

      So again. I believe Kirby should remain Large Planet Level + even if we do upgrade this one boss. 

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    • No, you didn't understand it right. It's not about the moon being giant, it's about Pop Star's stratosphere being large enough to contain it. And yes, if the stratosphere alone is 3400+ kms wide, then it proves how insanely large Pop Star is (there's no planet large enough to contain a moon in it's stratosphere), proving again that even 1 regular DM is on stellar levels as that'll be his Kinetic energy since he can reach that size while moving at relativistic speeds (and beyond).

      No other series gets your kind of treatment Xolon. "Let's count Magolor as an outlier and see if Kirby has other good feats. What ? He also has several stellar feats ? Well I'll say they're all outliers. Let's limit Kirby to only his oldest and lowest showings. That's definitely fair."

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    • I think that Fastsword88 seems to make sense. What do the rest of the staff think?

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      No, you didn't understand it right. It's not about the moon being giant, it's about Pop Star's stratosphere being large enough to contain it. And yes, if the stratosphere alone is 3400+ kms wide, then it proves how insanely large Pop Star is (there's no planet large enough to contain a moon in it's stratosphere), proving again that even 1 regular DM is on stellar levels as that'll be his Kinetic energy since he can reach that size while moving at relativistic speeds (and beyond).

      No other series gets your kind of treatment Xolon. "Let's count Magolor as an outlier and see if Kirby has other good feats. What ? He also has several stellar feats ? Well I'll say they're all outliers. Let's limit Kirby to only his oldest and lowest showings. That's definitely fair."

      These are 2 outliers on entirely different levels. They don't even support eachother because of how far apart they are. They are both far above Kirby's consistent showings and there is no indication Kirby gets a significant powerup before fighting these enemies or from X game on. if this wasn't an outlier Kirby shouldn't have struggled against Queen Sectonia (he had to be saved by Dedede) which took place after Squeak Squad. Queen Sectonia is large planet level + at best like most other Kirby bosses. Does Kirby fluctuate between getting stronger and weaker between games? 

      And how does one sentence about the moon being large (which very well could've been meant redundantly) prove the Stratosphere is that much bigger? You are reaching with that stuff.

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    • Hey Ant, I have a question. I found a new feat and here it is. Basically, in certain parts of the game, Kirby takes portals into a parallel universe, and then has to run away from a massive wave of unknown matter consuming said part of the universe, including all the celestial bodies we see in the background. However, Kirby can push away the wave of anti-matter under his own power and block it temporarily to buy time. Do you think "At least 4-A, possibly 3-C" would be more appropriate in this case ?

      From the Kirby wiki : "Previously, throughout Kirby's adventures on Popstar and Halcandra, there are star-shaped rifts which can be revealed using Super Abilities throughout various stages which lead to dangerous places similar to Another Dimension. They have stark, dark purple environments which perpetually threaten to collapse onto itself" / "The main objective of doing so is to reveal a portal to unstable dimensional space perpetually erasing itself, in order to retrieve additional Energy Spheres"

      @Xolon : "And how does one sentence about the moon being large (which very well could've been meant redundantly) prove the Stratosphere is that much bigger?"

      Wait... are you doing this on purpose ? The sentence translates to "Kirby arrives in the stratosphere and there a new thing appears : a giant moon". There's no way you CAN'T understand the logic behind it.

      The matter with Sectonia was solved with Saikou above. "Inconsistencies" is a thing by the way.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      Hey Ant, I have a question. I found a new feat and here it is. Basically, in certain parts of the game, Kirby takes portals into a parallel universe, and then has to run away from a massive wave of unknown matter consuming said part of the universe, including all the celestial bodies we see in the background. However, Kirby can push away the wave of anti-matter under his own power and block it temporarily to buy time. Do you think "At least 4-A, possibly 3-C" would be more appropriate in this case ?

      From the Kirby wiki : "Previously, throughout Kirby's adventures on Popstar and Halcandra, there are star-shaped rifts which can be revealed using Super Abilities throughout various stages which lead to dangerous places similar to Another Dimension. They have stark, dark purple environments which perpetually threaten to collapse onto itself" / "The main objective of doing so is to reveal a portal to unstable dimensional space perpetually erasing itself, in order to retrieve additional Energy Spheres"

      @Xolon : "And how does one sentence about the moon being large (which very well could've been meant redundantly) prove the Stratosphere is that much bigger?"

      Wait... are you doing this on purpose ? The sentence translates to "Kirby arrives in the stratosphere and there a new thing appears : a giant moon". There's no way you CAN'T understand the logic behind it.

      The matter with Sectonia was solved with Saikou above. "Inconsistencies" is a thing by the way.

      You want to claim that anything other than the outlier you want to push is an inconsistency? Bull. The Dark Nebula and Magalor things would be inconsistencies if anything. They are in the minority.

      Kirby sees a moon in the distance. I don't think that is literally meant to be taken as the moon is in the stratopshere. We've seen the moon much farther out in other games. Like when the moon and sun are fighting in space they are faarrrr away from Popstar. 

      Kirby pushing back a wall of anti-matter seemed to me like a game mechanic made so the player would be able to have enough time to escape. 

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    • First off, stop quoting everything. You're creating large walls of text and that makes reading the thread diffcult.

      ... I think I said that's been solved, but outliers aren't so easily distribued. It's not about "the minority" and whatnot. If it were, then Mario wouldn't be planetary, the FF7 main cast wouldn't be stellar, the FF3 cast wouldn't be cosmic, ect. The greatest feats are almost always in the minority. You're saying it should be an outlier because you want it to be, and via excuses that never applied to the other series.

      That's a different moon from the one outside Pop Star. And... you "don't think it's in the stratosphere" ? Of course ! Because you definitely hold the authority over the creators of the game who said it is. Definitely.

      Ah, so that's what the OBD members meant when they said that some people misunderstand what gameplay mechanics are.

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    • When did Mario become planetary? I'm pretty sure he's still city level. And i'd consider FF7 or FF3 different cases. They are each their own universe. Instead of it being a series with the same cast doing different things it is entirely different casts each time so one game can have a cast much weaker than another game. Kirby is a character across one series. He has enough feats to determine what is and what isn't an outlier for him.

      You're assuming the Creators explicitly said "the moon is in the stratoshphere". Did they say those exact words? And even if they did they contradicted themselves with the placement of the sun and moon in Kirby Super Star/Super Star Ultra. The Source Material takes precedence over word of god. It cannot be a different moon. It was explicitly said in the source material that "the sun and the moon are fighting" not a moon and the sun. Popstar only has one moon.

       

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    • Well, I recommand you check Mario's profile. And also Sonic's. FF7 isn't limited to one game, mind you. FF3's protagonist appears in Dissidia as well, and through his same game the 2nd best feat is planet level and doesn't even scale to him, while the 1st best feast is universal. And several other examples. I think you got the phrase that "the best feats are almost always in the minority".

      I'm assuming ? I posted the link right there in one of my previous comments. Triple Deluxe IS a source material, and there you go again using irrelevant minor detail like "they used the word "the" and not "a". Grammar time. No one cares about it. That game was out years before Triple Deluxe anyways.

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    • Fastsword88 wrote:
      Well, I recommand you check Mario's profile. And also Sonic's. FF7 isn't limited to one game, mind you. FF3's protagonist appears in Dissidia as well, and through his same game the 2nd best feat is planet level and doesn't even scale to him, while the 1st best feast is universal. And several other examples. I think you got the phrase that "the best feats are almost always in the minority".

      I'm assuming ? I posted the link right there in one of my previous comments. Triple Deluxe IS a source material, and there you go again using irrelevant minor detail like "they used the word "the" and not "a". Grammar time. No one cares about it. That game was out years before Triple Deluxe anyways.

      A miiverse post is word of god. Not the source material. Source material takes precedence over word of god. And the moon is definitely not in the stratosphere in Super Star/Super Star Ultra. 

      Isn't Dissidia a crossover game and thus non-canon?

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    • Technically speaking, Dissidia is canon, and the game itself makes that rather clear with how the Warriors of Cosmos and Warriors of Chaos were pulled from their original worlds. However, the scaling present should very likely not be used, due to the number of contradictions surrounding the verse's general power (Laguna being able to fight Cloud of Darkness comes to mind).

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    • We see the moon in the stratosphere in the source material. And I said that there are different moons, the moon you see in SSU isn't even a sphere but a crescent. And... in the end, you're just using random excuses to escape the truth, you don't expect Nintendo to flawlessly follow through a series without throwing inconsistencies now do you ? (though there's none in this case, it's the 1st time we see Pop Star's atmosphere clearly) And that's the case with most similar video game franchises.

      Don't matta, ask the FF experts if you want.

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    • @Fastsword The new feat seems unquantifiable. All that we see is a wave of energy consuming the ground and presumably entire planet behind Kirby. We do no know its full effect. And even if Kirby would be able to lessen its local effect, we have no guarantee that he would remotely be able to stop all of it.

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    • @Fastsword88

      Really now? You know there are different phases of the moon right? The moon in Super Star/Super Star Ultra is undoubtedly THE MOON. It is just in the phase where it looks like a crescent at the time the game takes place.

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    • @Antvasima : I see. Though, we know part of the wave's effect, it's the same that destroyed all of the parallel universe at the end of the game. In that scene where Kirby pushes it away, we can see the consumed background having stars (red ones close, blue ones far away). While it's true Kirby didn't stop it permanently, wouldn't it require that much power to push it away repeatedly ? It wouldn't have been possible if he was weaker than that right ?

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    • Slightly affecting something on a local level does not remotely mean affecting it in its entirety, especially if you are going for multiversal power tiers.

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    • I'm dissappointed in whoever thought changing the profile was a good idea at this point. The upgrade was still in the middle of being debated. Another reason why i'll always trust the OBD wiki as a source more than the vs battles wiki since although they're behind on things at times (due to a lot of profiles being lost) they don't jump the gun either.

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    • Xolon, you can get mad at me and blame me as much as you want, but leave the rest of the VS battles wiki alone.

      It's not about it being in the "middle of getting debated"(what was debated anyways now ? The moon ?), are you seriously getting angry over a fictional world getting upgraded ? That's sad. :/

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    • I'd like to repost this from the last thread since how we approach this will likely affect how we approach rating other franchises with similar issues.

      Scaling Kirby to Claycia brings up the question of how to scale characters in series that don't have a clear and linear scale of power. Kirby plots work on the Monster of the Week trope, and no matter how high the current monster's showings are, Kirby always defeats them in a similar fashion. As a result, you could have him flipping from defeating Galactic and Universal level villains to struggling with Planetary level characters (ala Sonic the Hedgehog) with no explanation for the disparity. Thus, we are left with several options on how to scale Kirby and co:

      1. Scale them to the most frequent showings in their series (Planet/Large Planet, in this case). This seems to be what we are currently doing with other series like American comics and Sonic the Hedgehog.

      2. Scale them to the highest showing that they can be scaled to (the Universal Magolor, in this case). This avoids having to constantly reevaluate what the "most common showings" are whenever a new game or two comes out, but as this is not the current standard we apply to other series (or we would have Universal Super forms in Sonic), we would have to give a good explanation for the differences in standards or face accusations of bias.

      3. Rate them by their own feats only. This circumvents all scaling issues, perhaps making them much easier to evaluate, but, again, this is different from the standards we apply to other series, and so we would probably have to give a good explanation for that.

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    • Well, we tend to evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but for self-contained franchises, unless a feat is blatantly contradicted or completely out of place, we usually tend to go with the higher showings.

      As for American Comics, as I detailed in this page, they are a special case due to the hundreds of different writers involved having completely different standards. I have attempted to find a balance in the sense that we have gone by the higher relevant to the story feats, but not the completely out of place outliers, much less the regular showings.

      Hence, we do not rate Hulk as High 3-A for shaking an infinite number of planets or Thor as 3-B for preventing 1/5th of the universe being destroyed, but we do not rate them as Building level either, even though that really is their general displayed scale of power.

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    • Wait...did Hulk and Thor actually those things?

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    • Yes, but then they returned to normal levels right afterwards.

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    • Also, on the other end, Thor has been knocked unconscious by a regular gun, and Hulk strangled by a regular snake. Both of these instances are also considered extreme outliers, in the other direction.

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    • I can see why comic book characters are hard to classify.

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    • Yup.

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    • Oh, I have a question about this upgrade. What makes scaling to Magolor and outlier while scaling to Dark Nebula is ok? (Just wondering)

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    • As far as I understand, Dark Nebula is fairly consistent with Kirby's other feats, whereas Magolor is not.

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    • That's right Otakuzoid, pretty much what Ant said, along with some other reasons discussed in the middle of this thread.

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    • Ok. Just wondering.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      As far as I understand, Dark Nebula is fairly consistent with Kirby's other feats, whereas Magolor is not.

      How exactly? Magalor and Dark Nebula are the only kirby bosses that aren't Large planet + or featless. It is in no way consistent for Kirby to be Multi-Solar system level +.

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    • Well, we have to try to find some sort of balanced middle way in terms of the feat scaling. We cannot ignore every single proof that Fastsword88 has brought us.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, we have to try to find some sort of balanced middle way in terms of the feat scaling. We cannot ignore every single proof that Fastsword88 has brought us.

      This is one feat. How is it "every single proof". Nothing else supports it so It's not consistent. Thus why I think it should be classed as an outlier at best. 


      The vagueness of the scene just makes it seem like circumstantial evidence to me. It needs something else to back it up but it doesn't have that. No other feat on its level (Magalor feat is way above it and also an outlier), no game text supporting it, no clear indication the scene was meant to show destruction. 

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    • You just keep repeating the same already discussed things again and again, Xolon.

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    • Well, I vaguely recall that Fastword88 has shown us several different feats over a span of several months, but that we did not accept them until he showed us the latest explicit destruction of multiple star systems.

      We cannot accept these types of feats for lots of other game franchise characters but treat Kirby especially disfavourably.

      That said, I handle a massive amount of different topics, and may misremember.

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    • However, Fastsword did mention above that "Beating Claycia, Dark Crafter, Dark Nebula, Necrodeus, and Dark Nebula's supposed creator 02" were all Multi-Solar system level feats.

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    • By feats:

      Dark Nebula (and by extension 02 by relation) should likely be 4-A.

      Claycia and Dark Crafter should not. 

      Don't know about Necrodeus. Always remembered him being featless.

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    • Okay.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      By feats:

      Dark Nebula (and by extension 02 by relation) should likely be 4-A.

      Claycia and Dark Crafter should not. 

      Don't know about Necrodeus. Always remembered him being featless.

      So it's as I said. It is inconsistent for Kirby to fight characters much more powerful than Large Planet level +. Magalor and Dark Nebula are the only two on a much higher level through feats (i'm unsure if 02 should even scale to Dark Nebula). so 2 or 3 kirby bosses out of all that he's fought. I think it is reasonable to declare these as outliers for Kirby until more feats come up to prove their consistency. So kirby should be downgraded back to Large Planet + for the time being. Especially since Magalor and Dark Nebula are entirely different levels of outlier (Magalor's much higher) so they don't even support eachother.

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    • Well, I recall Fastsword presenting various other feats on previous occasions, and regardless we still need to find some form of middle road for Kirby's scaling. We may not be able to use the most extreme feat, but we do not need to use the lower feats either.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, I recall Fastsword presenting various other feats on previous occasions, and regardless we still need to find some form of middle road for Kirby's scaling. We may not be able to use the most extreme feat, but we do not need to use the lower feats either.

      I wouldn't consider Large Planet level + Kirby's lower feats. They'd be mid end. They happen the most consistently and are what most Kirby bosses that perform feats are calced at. 


      I haven't seen these previous feats so it's hard for me to comment on them. However the fact that they weren't accepted back then leads me to believe they were misinterpretations. So previous feats that weren't accepted can't really be used to support a newfound feat that is iffy. 

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    • Most people accepted it and 2 admins never exaclty objected to it.

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    • Xolon, your "outlier" argument was already killed by Antvasima with these 3 phrases :

      -"For self-contained franchises, we usually tend to go with the higher showings."

      -"We do not rate them (Hulk & Thor) as Building level either, even though that really is their general displayed scale of power." : In other words, even with the Marvel/DC characters who are one of the most inconsistent characters in history, we don't go with the "consistent" showings, otherwise Hulk & Thor would be in tier 8... which is outright wrong.

      -"We do not need to use the lower feats either." : Skod's thread about "early Kirby villains ranking" made 1 thing clear : tier 5 aren't the "consistent" feats... they're the "lowest" feats, and probably the rarest too. Onwards, Kirby kills Nebula, his creator Zero TWICE (Key word)in 2 different games (think about this for a sec... it's overkilling the "outlier argument" even further), temporarily overpowers a universe consuming wave, ect, ect, until Magolor.

      So yeah, if you still think that it's logical to go with the lowest feats, ignoring the better feats, and barraging this franchise with an exaggerated outlier system that no other series suffer from here... then wow.

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    • Well, I think that this should conclude the topic then. It has likely gone on for too long, so I will close it now.

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