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  • Dragonmasterxyz
    Dragonmasterxyz closed this thread because:
    Closed until further notice.
    19:03, July 23, 2018

    This is a match that is very fitting. Badass Big Brothers

    Naruto vs Inuyasha

    Uchiha Warrior vs Dog Warrior

    -Speed Equal

    -SBA

    FIGHT!!!

    Itachi Uchiha: 7 (Gar, DZ, Rocker, Ricsi, Astral, Korudo, Stryk)

    Sesshōmaru: 4 (Raven, HST, Red, Brian)

    Inconclusive: 0

    Uchiha Itachi
    Sesshomaru by niiigata-d57xt1b
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    • Itachi looks GG

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    • Sesshoumaru has Illusion and mintwist resistance from the likes of a Shikon Jewel posessed Naraku inside Narakus own body. In addition he bypasses Illusions via smell as well.

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    • Both decide to team up and kill off their respective families ovo

      In all seriousness im not sure yet. I'll wait.

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    • One thing I like to point out, while Sesshoumaru has resistance to Itachis biggest gun in the Arsenal, the illusion/mindtwist, I am uncertain whether Itachi has the means to deal with Sesshoumarus 1 Hit moves.

      If its Bakusaiga Meidou Sesshoumaru has a kilometer sized Blast which immediately causes cellular disintegration, cancels regeneration up to low Godly and can be spammed.

      Meidou Sesshoumaru is even more dangerous, since its a tierless move which spatially BFRs people to hell and Sesshoumaru can launch it either in a close combat strike, even the when strike is blocked or inefective, as a forward momentum based Orb, reaching the size of a Mountain and swallowing every other move, object, person etc. in its path or directly "inside" Itachi, BFRing him directly at his location without having to move one inch.

      -

      Has Itachi means to deal with Dimensional BFR / Spatial moves / Cellular disintegration / regen Cancel?

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    • Just noting that said resistance is not on Sessho's profile.

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    • Itachi one shots with genjutsus.  Sessho's resistance does not include mind manipulation and illusions.  

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    • I also highly doubt said resistance is actually good enough

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    • izanami could trap Kabuto who himself has great chakra control.  As well as Obito stating that MS sasuke's genjutsu wasnt as good as Itachis even tho Sasuke was able to trap KB for a  little while and he placed a genjutsu on Danzo through their whole battle

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    • Most important is Tsukuyomi, I guess.

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    • Oh, thanks for the heads up. Yeha should be added then, Naraku has complete control over his body which automatically take over minds  and shows multiple illusions to multiple people at the same time and Sesshoumaru is immune to all of it

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    • RavenSupreme wrote: Sesshoumaru has Illusion and mintwist resistance from the likes of a Shikon Jewel posessed Naraku inside Narakus own body. In addition he bypasses Illusions via smell as well.

      BTW this is possession not Mind Manipulation

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    • Lol...When did people start saying "Mindtwist" instead of "Mindhax", I had never even seen the phrase until a few days ago, now I'm seeing it everywhere.

      No opinion on this battle.....One day I'm gonna make a match with Itachi and restrict genjutsu....Itachi has a pretty decent arsenal without it, so it just seems like a shame that most battles hinge on genjutsu.

      I know it won't get added.

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    • thats possession not mind manipulation tho

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    • Also the latter part is illusion creation

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    • YungManzi wrote:
      Lol...When did people start saying "Mindtwist" instead of "Mindhax", I had never even seen the phrase until a few days ago, now I'm seeing it everywhere.

      Thank goodness. I'm not the only one. ovo

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    • the only thing that is usefull is being resistant to illusions but i still believe Itachi's mind hax is on greater level as well the fact that illusions arent the only things he can use

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    • The actual mind manipulation itself only affects two people

      @Dragon How much do you care about getting this match added because if you don't care Id rather you restrict it

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    • The Illusions would have been the only thing Itachi could have done to edge out a win, and due to Sesshoumaru being resistance to it nothing in his Arsenal can hope to defeat Sesshoumaru.

      Unless I am forgetting something, which I dont think.

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    • If the actual mind attack only worked on two people he can very easily overpower it

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    • What actual mind attack? Who overpowers what?

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    • I just told you his Genjutsu and I said his Mind Resistance

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    • I dont see how his sense of smell helps against genjutsu, the thing that controls all 5 senses.

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    • Resistance =/= immunity. Itachi's illusions can work on those resistant to it, and is >>>> Kabuto's Nirvana that worked on a stadium full of people.

      Most importantly, I don't see anything for Tsukuyomi.

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    • The Mind Resistance from Sesshoumaru? No. Narakus Illusions are equally, if not superior to Itachis. They work on the body, the soul and the mind at the same time. Regardless for how many people. Let me get you some scans.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote: The Mind Resistance from Sesshoumaru? No. Narakus Illusions are equally, if not superior to Itachis. They work on the body, the soul and the mind at the same time. Regardless for how many people. Let me get you some scans.

      Don't get me the scans I know what you refer to

      Issue is it works on people with resistance to them, it ultimately doesn't stop him from looking into Seuss's eyes and making him become a slave

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    • If he can resist Tsukuyomi, he takes it. His moves look faster than Totsuka Blade.

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    • I dont get it. The doe snot seem that power. When you say all people what do you mean. Do you mean everyone in the world?

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    • An Illusions which manages to attack the Soul, the Mind and the body is not powerful to you? Does Itachis Illusions attack the Soul? 

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    • Also how many people has Itachi affected at the same time?

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      An Illusions which manages to attack the Soul, the Mind and the body is not powerful to you? Does Itachis Illusions attack the Soul? 

      I thought we literally rated the potency of illusions/mind hax on the number of people they ffected/scaling off of others(ie Star wars), but now we actually care about what else they do? As fo Itachi's genjutsu they work on the body and mind but not the soul unless we are talking about the Totsuka blade but he would not use that first. But in terms of who he scales off. His genjutsu is much more potent than one that affected an entire stadium of people.

      Which is more impressive than the illusion you just posted.

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    • "I thought we literally rated the potency of illusions/mind hax on the number of people they ffected"

      Were do you take this idea from?

      The only Illusion I see would come remotely close to an Illusion which targets body, mind and soul at the same time is this Izanami thing. And that needs apparently a set up time and physical contact.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote: "I thought we literally rated the potency of illusions/mind hax on the number of people they ffected"

      Were do you take this idea from?

      Literally every mindhax related thread

      And Star Wars and Masadaverse stuff usually

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      "I thought we literally rated the potency of illusions/mind hax on the number of people they ffected"

      Were do you take this idea from?

      Literally every thread involving mind hax I have ever been in? In  fact there was a huge thread that was highlighted were questions were asked about it. And that was the conclusion.

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    • That's what has been said in several threads. Though I don't have the links to any of them.

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    • So where has Itachi ever affected more than 1 person?

      Someone link me the thread and the conclusions.

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    • Burning already showed how his Genjutsu is>>>Stadium of people

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      So where has Itachi ever affected more than 1 person?

      Someone link me the thread and the conclusions.

      Like I said he scales way above someone who affected an entire stadium his is single target based however.

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    • Burning Full Fingers wrote:
      That's what has been said in several threads. Though I don't have the links to any of them.

      Sounds pretty weird to me. It would mean quantity is more important than quality. Someone who mindtwists unnamed fodders is suddenly > than someone who deals with tectonic or even cosmic threads via mindtwisting?

      Whats the take on that?

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    • Also his genjutsu is strong enough to kill people by aging them in the illusion.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:
      RavenSupreme wrote:
      So where has Itachi ever affected more than 1 person?

      Someone link me the thread and the conclusions.

      Like I said he scales way above someone who affected an entire stadium his is single target based however.

      Wait so he has not affected more than 1 person himself? And suddenly we also scale mindtwist like its physical prowess?

      That sounds very wrong.

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    • Not had this happened to multiple people but it even tricked Inuyasha's senses who are >>>>> to everyone elses.

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    • Well done @Dragon, another mindhax thread.

      @Raven Because Twisting Tectonic or Cosmic threads isn't impressive ic they have a cosmic threads

      By the way

      >Unnamed Fodders

      There's no difference between a fodder and a 5B who has zero resistance to mindhax.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      Wait so he has not affected more than 1 person himself? And suddenly we also scale mindtwist like its physical prowess?

      That sounds very wrong.

      It is because in verse his genjutsu is noted to be the very strongest one not counting redicukous ones liek Kotomatsu/Izanami/and IT and also reality warping genjutsu like Izanagi.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      Sounds pretty weird to me. It would mean quantity is more important than quality. Someone who mindtwists unnamed fodders is suddenly > than someone who deals with tectonic or even cosmic threads via mindtwisting?

      Whats the take on that?

      That was something else that was brought up and it was hax is hax if the person shows no resistant they are just as unresistant as unnamed fodder.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Not had this happened to multiple people but it even tricked Inuyasha's senses who are >>>>> to everyone elses.
      Senses dont matter Inuyasha has to show resistance for that to be considered.
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    • I actually really hate the way we rate mind hax. Imo the fact that Itachi can mind fuck people who resist mind fuck sounds much impressive than being superior than someone who mind fucked a bunch of fodder. ( Especially if the fodder don't even have a resistance to mind hax to begin with. )

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    • Gargoyle One wrote:
      Well done @Dragon, another mindhax thread.

      @Raven Because Twisting Tectonic or Cosmic threads isn't impressive ic they have a cosmic threads

      By the way

      >Unnamed Fodders

      There's no difference between a fodder and a 5B who has zero resistance to mindhax.

      You dont understand what I mean. It is clear that Narakus quality of Illusion is stronger, since it works on more levels than Itachis does. I just showed the scans. Mind. Body. Soul.

      Whereas Itachis does not.

      Arguing that Sesshoumaru, who resisted Narakus Mind, Body, Soul illusions will NOT resist Itachis, simply because Itachi can (via scaling, not that he has himself done it) extent his inferior level of Illusion to more people lacks any foundation, since the potency does not suddenly increase.

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    • Knightofannihilation666 wrote:
      I actually really hate the way we rate mind hax. Imo the fact that Itachi can mind fuck people who resist mind fuck sounds much impressive than being superior than someone who mind fucked a bunch of fodder. ( Especially if the fodder don't even have a resistance to mind hax to begin with. )

      I mean he did both lol.

      And yeah I dont like the current way either but whatever.

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    • I feel like Knight is reffering to some characters here.

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    • Also wasn't it just that Kakashi and co. dispelled it before Nirvana took effect NOT simply resisting?

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      You dont understand what I mean. It is clear that Narakus quality of Illusion is stronger, since it works on more levels than Itachis does. I just showed the scans. Mind. Body. Soul.

      Whereas Itachis does not.

      Arguing that Sesshoumaru, who resisted Narakus Mind, Body, Soul illusions will NOT resist Itachis, simply because Itachi can (via scaling, not that he has himself done it) extent his inferior level of Illusion to more people lacks any foundation, since the potency does not suddenly increase.

      It is inferior because it did not affect the soul?

      Dude for 1, as already said Itachi's illusion is >>>>>Kabutos we know that in universe.

      For 2 Itachi's illusions can mind fuck people to death because they died in said illusion.

      Just becasue it did not affect the soul does not make it inferior in quality.

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    • Also, Naraku oviously also mindtwists people who are usually resistant to Illusions, namely Kagome. Thats nothing which Itachi has over him.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:
      RavenSupreme wrote:

      You dont understand what I mean. It is clear that Narakus quality of Illusion is stronger, since it works on more levels than Itachis does. I just showed the scans. Mind. Body. Soul.

      Whereas Itachis does not.

      Arguing that Sesshoumaru, who resisted Narakus Mind, Body, Soul illusions will NOT resist Itachis, simply because Itachi can (via scaling, not that he has himself done it) extent his inferior level of Illusion to more people lacks any foundation, since the potency does not suddenly increase.

      It is inferior because it did not affect the soul?

      Dude for 1, as already said Itachi's illusion is >>>>>Kabutos we know that in universe.

      For 2 Itachi's illusions can mind fuck people to death because they died in said illusion.

      Just becasue it did not affect the soul does not make it inferior in quality.

      How can you claim that something, which operates on lesser levels than another thing is not inferior in quality? What is your argument for that? 

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Also wasn't it just that Kakashi and co. dispelled it before Nirvana took effect NOT simply resisting?

      Itachi affected jinchurikki stated to be able to shrug off genjutsu. His genjutsu is enough to beat people with resistance. Normally when people try to mind hax Naruto he ends up straight up beating them up in his mind Itachis just bypasses it like nothing.

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    • Gargoyle One wrote: I feel like Knight is reffering to some characters here.


      Not referring to any characters in particular really but just the way we treat mind hax in general. As for this topic, I think I understand what RavenSupreme means. So Itachi would be able to resist two aspects of Naru's mind hax but he wouldn't be able to resist the Soul attacking aspect, or at least that's what I'm getting out of it.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      How can you claim that something, which operates on lesser levels than another thing is not inferior in quality? What is your argument for that? 

      Because said thing has a feat of killing someone just by making them see their death in their mind? Said thing creates a space in the person's head where everything is controlled by the user.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      Also, Naraku oviously also mindtwists people who are usually resistant to Illusions, namely Kagome. Thats nothing which Itachi has over him.

      One I just told you example of people(jinchuriki) resistant to genjutsus that Itachi completely mind haxxed and are much stronger than Kagome and two Kagome does not have any resistance on her profile again.

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    • Sharingan Genjutsu is obviously based on potency, like KS for example. Not on how many people it affects at once.

      I mean, how do you intend to mind hax dozens to hundreds of people at once when your ability is based on eye contact?

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:
      RavenSupreme wrote:

      How can you claim that something, which operates on lesser levels than another thing is not inferior in quality? What is your argument for that? 

      Because said thing has a feat of killing someone just by making them see their death in their mind? Said thing creates a space in the person's head where everything is controlled by the user.

      So he attacked the mind and at the same time the body dies as well? Thats Mind and body being affected by the Illusion.

      Pretty much the same as what Naraku did.

      Only that when he shows the enemies their death in their mind their soul is affected as well.

      Pretty dry and cut. 

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    • Knightofannihilation666 wrote:
      I actually really hate the way we rate mind hax.
       

      Lol. I've been arguing against the more people one controls = more potency since I've been on the wiki.

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    • Knightofannihilation666 wrote:


      Not referring to any characters in particular really but just the way we treat mind hax in general. As for this topic, I think I understand what RavenSupreme means. So Itachi would be able to resist two aspects of Naru's mind hax but he wouldn't be able to resist the Soul attacking aspect, or at least that's what I'm getting out of it.

      He is saying Itachi's would be resisted because ist does not affect the soul.

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    • YungManzi wrote:
      Knightofannihilation666 wrote:
      I actually really hate the way we rate mind hax.
       
      Lol. I've been arguing against the more people one controls = more potency since I've been on the wiki.

      Deserves a revision definetly. 

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      So he attacked the mind and at the same time the body dies as well? Thats Mind and body being affected by the Illusion.

      Pretty much the same as what Naraku did.

      Only that when he shows the enemies their death in their mind their soul is affected as well.

      Pretty dry and cut. 

      Yeah and it is not as potent as Itachi's based on how we rate things in the wiki pretty dry and cut too.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:
      RavenSupreme wrote:

      So he attacked the mind and at the same time the body dies as well? Thats Mind and body being affected by the Illusion.

      Pretty much the same as what Naraku did.

      Only that when he shows the enemies their death in their mind their soul is affected as well.

      Pretty dry and cut. 

      Yeah and it is not as potent as Itachi's based on how we rate things in the wiki pretty dry and cut too.

      Can you show me that rule / that thread where this was agreed upon?

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    • Haha, I don't think another thread will change anything.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      Deserves a revision definetly. 

      Until said revision is through this is pretty heavilyy in Itachi's favour were he has also affected Jinchuriki that are automatically resistant to genjutsu.

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    • Knightofannihilation666 wrote:

      Gargoyle One wrote: I feel like Knight is reffering to some characters here.


      Not referring to any characters in particular really but just the way we treat mind hax in general. As for this topic, I think I understand what RavenSupreme means. So Itachi would be able to resist two aspects of Naru's mind hax but he wouldn't be able to resist the Soul attacking aspect, or at least that's what I'm getting out of it.

      I just wanted to showcase the potency of Narakus Illusions and on how many levels they work, so that people understand Sesshoumaru, who resisted Narakus Illusions can resists Itachis as well.

      Now its no longer about this battle but a general thread how we deal with Mindhax.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:

      Hst master wrote:
      Also wasn't it just that Kakashi and co. dispelled it before Nirvana took effect NOT simply resisting?

      Itachi affected jinchurikki stated to be able to shrug off genjutsu. His genjutsu is enough to beat people with resistance. Normally when people try to mind hax Naruto he ends up straight up beating them up in his mind Itachis just bypasses it like nothing.

      What? Naruto has gotten hit with Genjutsu or Ocular abilities several times by Nirvana, Yura Itachi, and surpressed by Sasuke

      A Jinchuriki can only shake off Genjutsu IF the respectively Tailed Beast is willing to agitate their Chakra, something Kurama never did.

      Naraku even points out they'd have died soon enough so idk why you keep bringing up Tsukuyomi killing someone

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    • Hst master wrote:

      What? Naruto has gotten hit with Genjutsu or Ocular abilities several times by Nirvana, Yura Itachi, and surpressed by Sasuke

      A Jinchuriki can only shake off Genjutsu IF the respectively Tailed Beast is willing to agitate their Chakra, something Kurama never did.

      Naraku even points out they'd have died soon enough so idk why you keep bringing up Tsukuyomi killing someone

      As a genjutsu Itachi's is way better that Obito who mind hax Yugito that had perfect control over his tailed beast.

      I am talking about the Itachi shinden novel(which is canon) where he shows Izumi a good life with him until she grows old and dies in the genjutsu then she drops dead from that.

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    • It was Yagura.

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    • Ah yeah, I forget his name...

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    • Obito never mind haxed Yugito

      And I never said Itachi couldn't kill with Tsukuyomi but that Naraku's can kill as well.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Obito never mind haxed Yugito

      And I never said Itachi couldn't kill with Tsukuyomi but that Naraku's can kill as well.

      I meant Yagura it was my mistake.

      Oh ok read that wrong but Itachi's literally compressed an entire lifetime in a billionth of a second it is much much faster.

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    • I just want to say I am also confused... Sesshomura does not seem immune to it, rather he seems to be smelling his way to whoever he is looking for.

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    • And to boot it's more likely that it wasn't that Isobu couldn't shake Yagura out of the Genjutsu but was being mindhax as well or surpressed like Sasuke did.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      And to boot it's more likely that it wasn't that Isobu couldn't shake Yagura out of the Genjutsu but was being mindhax as well or surpressed like Sasuke did.

      Without evidence we cant assume that.

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    • He can use scent as yet another means to distinguish reality from Illusion. Shikon Naraku who targets the mind directly is what he resisted automaticaly, whereas InuYasha got affected - multiple times.

      Also can you now link me the thread where you agree that quantitiy is > quality in terms of mindtwist?

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    • Yeah which he immediately states it has no scent at all. This makes me believe the illusions are not that realistic. Or at the very least do not affect your sense of smell.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:

      Hst master wrote:
      And to boot it's more likely that it wasn't that Isobu couldn't shake Yagura out of the Genjutsu but was being mindhax as well or surpressed like Sasuke did.

      Without evidence we cant assume that.

      Occams Razor

      There's more evidence that he did that then there is of Obito no selling any attempts of Isobu's to agitate Yagura

      A. Uchiha's can go into a Jinchuriki's Subconscious and surpress the tailed beast

      B. Uchiha's can Genjutsu tailed beasts.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Occams Razor

      There's more evidence that he did that then there is of Obito no selling any attempts of Isobu's to agitate Yagura

      A. Uchiha's can go into a Jinchuriki's Subconscious and surpress the tailed beast

      B. Uchiha's can Genjutsu tailed beasts.

      That is not occam's razor, It would be occam's razor if there was a reason to be lieve he did that, but he literally did not he just immediately took control of him.

      Occam's razor, the most likely outcome is that he simply beat the resistance jinchuriki have. Dont abuse Occam's razor to get the result you want.

      If he mind haxxed Isobu too it would have been shown.

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    • It means that Naraku has multiple forms of Illusions in varying quality, pretty simple. EOS InuYashas mind was immediately taken over just by being inside of it, whereas Sesshoumaru was not affected. I linked the panels further above.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      It means that Naraku has multiple forms of Illusions in varying quality, pretty simple. EOS InuYashas mind was immediately taken over just by being inside of it, whereas Sesshoumaru was not affected. I linked the panels further above.

      That means Inuyasha has bad mind resistance and nothing else. Sesshomura directly states it has no scent allowing him to know it is not real and wave it aside. Unlike genjutsu that directly controls all your 5 senses.

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    • Are you not realizing that you are mixing up multiple feats? These things are not related at all. 

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      Are you not realizing that you are mixing up multiple feats? These things are not related at all. 

      Can you show me directly what you are talking about then?

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    • I linked all the important things already. The fact that Sesshoumaru can also distinguish illusions via smell is meant as an additional trivia, which I stated in my original post. It has nothing to do with him regulary being resistant to Narakus Mindtwist.

      Inuyasha has mindtwist resistance feats and still got instantly taken over by Shikon Naraku. 

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    • In fact early people were calling it possession not mind hax, and suddenly it has turned into him having mind resistance?

      He even waves away the illusions meaning they are illusions int he real world no the mind. I dont think this is mind resistance. This is simply his sense of smell and illusion creation. Whereas all of Itachi's are all in your head and noting you do in it happens in real life. In fact you would just be standig around in the real world.

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    • @Rocker

      I'm not abusing it it's exactly what it is

      There's been several examples of Uchiha's doing what I posted above than what you've said of negating agitating someone's Chakra to release them from Genjutsu which is one of the main ways of undoing Genjutsu in verse and more often than not works

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      I linked all the important things already. The fact that Sesshoumaru can also distinguish illusions via smell is meant as an additional trivia, which I stated in my original post. It has nothing to do with him regulary being resistant to Narakus Mindtwist.

      Inuyasha has mindtwist resistance feats and still got instantly taken over by Shikon Naraku. 

      Dude all you linked was some possession and maybe some kind of illusion creation?

      And then a post that shows Sesshomura seem to be able to see the differencees between the illusions and real ones by smell. And Naraku did not even seem to atempt to possess him like he did to Inuyasha.

      Also how come non of these Inuyasha characters have mind resistance in their profiles. Without it there you cant argue for their mind ressistance and also you need to show me Inuyasha's mind resistance feat too and Kagome's.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      @Rocker

      I'm not abusing it it's exactly what it is

      There's been several examples of Uchiha's doing what I posted above than what you've said of negating agitating someone's Chakra to release them from Genjutsu which is one of the main ways of undoing Genjutsu in verse and more often than not works

      But it is not. It is the main way of getting out of non-occular genjutsu, occular genjutsu, its method is to have a teammate nearby.

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    • And which said teammate agitates your chakra.

      it's the main method

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    • The InuYasha profiles are not updated, that is all.

      Nothing I will be able to do tonight. I can link the scans tomorrow.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      The InuYasha profiles are not updated, that is all.

      Nothing I will be able to do tonight. I can link the scans tomorrow.

      I look forward to it.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      And which said teammate agitates your chakra.

      it's the main method

      Yes and you can not do that in a 1 v 1. I dont get your point here. Either way I a waiting for Sesshomura's resistance to be proven.

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    • The resistance for Sesshoumaru is proven already via resisting Narakus Shikon mindtwist. 

      Kagome and InuYashas Resistance is the only thing which needs to be shown, to showcase that, similar to Itachi, Naraku affects people with resistance.

      Also can you link me the thread where you agree that not the quality but the quantity of the Mindtwist is superior for vsbwiki?

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      The resistance for Sesshoumaru is proven already via resisting Narakus Shikon mindtwist. 

      Kagome and InuYashas Resistance is the only thing which needs to be shown, to showcase that, similar to Itachi, Naraku affects people with resistance.

      Yeah and I disagree with it, there is no direct showing of Sesshomura resisting it. Literally just him saying the illusions have no smell that does not show resistance to me.

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    • A Tailed Beast acts as a Jinchuriki's teammate, Bee explains this when Eight-O agitates his chakra and breaks the Genjutsu Sasuke put on him

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    • Hst master wrote:
      A Tailed Beast acts as a Jinchuriki's teammate, Bee explains this when Eight-O agitates his chakra and breaks the Genjutsu Sasuke put on him

      And so what again we just see Obito control Yagura. Nothing more or less.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:
      RavenSupreme wrote:
      The resistance for Sesshoumaru is proven already via resisting Narakus Shikon mindtwist. 

      Kagome and InuYashas Resistance is the only thing which needs to be shown, to showcase that, similar to Itachi, Naraku affects people with resistance.

      Yeah and I disagree with it, there is no direct showing of Sesshomura resisting it. Literally just him saying the illusions have no smell that does not show resistance to me.

      You have the panel of InuYasha being affected and Sesshoumaru not being affected. It happens inside of Narakus body, as such he has the resistance. Simple.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      The resistance for Sesshoumaru is proven already via resisting Narakus Shikon mindtwist. 

      Kagome and InuYashas Resistance is the only thing which needs to be shown, to showcase that, similar to Itachi, Naraku affects people with resistance.

      Also can you link me the thread where you agree that not the quality but the quantity of the Mindtwist is superior for vsbwiki?

      As others have said they cant find it, and I cant really be bothered to try to be honest. It was like months ago.

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    • Since that entire thing will get revised it is obviously necessary to link the thread where its agreed upon.

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    • 2016? Alright thanks for the thread. I will take a look at it.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote: 2016? Alright thanks for the thread. I will take a look at it.

      WOT

      read the date again

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    • Gargoyle One wrote:

      RavenSupreme wrote: 2016? Alright thanks for the thread. I will take a look at it.

      WOT

      read the date again

      2018, was too small for me to read at first. If thats the newest its even better.

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    • lmfao i just realized thats not actually being resistant to mind manipulation.  The reason its most likely is not on his profile is the same reason as its not on Tsuna's profile, its not that they are resistant to it, its that they have a way to tell whihc is real and fake, in other words Illusions.  Tsuna doesnt have resistance to illusions cause his pre cog helps him to tell the difference between real and fake, just like Sessho's sense of smell, the fact that he can still see the illusions means they effect his perception whihc is one of the main things Itachi does in character.  

      Second it doesnt even sound like mind manipulation but body poession, the same as Kurama who should have had mind manipulation a long time ago since he does the same thing to Naruto and you wanna classify that as mind manipulation cause he takes over the mind.  

      Lastly even if we all drop the argument about Mind manipulation and shit, Itachi should still be able to win this because of his Pre cog and Explosive shadow clones along with the fact that Susanno is power nullification when it uses its shield and he can seal Sessho forever

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    • ^ Sesshomaru quite literally starts with Meido as soon as he has it.

      @Rocker

      And it is likely he either surpressed Isobu or Genjutsu'd him as well

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    • Itachi dodges than and takes not of the effect of the attack and puts some distance between the two and matter of fact lmao Itachi gets my vote  he can increase his speed with SHunsin and has pre cog

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    • "Itachi dodges"

      Except the actual range of Meido is ridiculous, a full one being able to suck up a Mountain, and alongside the Meido actually sucking in anyone near. If Itachi even tried to dodge and managed to escape it's range(SBA making that extremely difficult) he would simply get sucked in by it's vaccum or tore apart by it.

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    • wouldnt it suck up Sessho as well then lol cause itachi will blitz with shunshin after he dodges

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    • I'm going to go with Itachi. Sharingan allows him to read through Sesshomaru's movements, Susano'o's Yata Mirror would stand up to most of Sesshy's attacks, and there's always Substitution if not.

      Genjutsu controls all five senses, so Sesshy's feat of sniffing out an illusion wouldn't work. Tsukuyomi should also be superior to Naraku's illusions, as Itachi was able to use it on Jinchuuriki that have a high resistance to illusions/mind manipulation.

      Also, the Totsuka Blade would seal Sesshomaru.

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    • Except it will quite literally suck Itachi into it's direction also Sesshomaru has used it several times without getting sucked in, same with Inuyasha

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    • Sesshomaru

      He starts with Meido his deadliest attack. Itachi would time to dodge or any of the sort. And Itachi doesn't start with Totsuka Blade.

      When has he ever used Tsukuyomi on a Jinchuriki? And again Jinchuriki simply have their tailed beast agitate their chakra, not a resistance but having another person to agitate your chakra with you all the time. Naruto being unable to get out of Yura's Genjutsu is proof of this.

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    • then how does it effect Itachi when he will be close to Sessho cause of pre cog and Shunshin.  Speed is equal as well lmao when i think about it Itachi would blitz before Sessho uses Meido and evade the direction where he is gonna draw his sword because of PRe cog

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    • Because Meido will appear where Itachi is, Itachi won't know what Sesshomaru is doing until it's too late and again even if he evades the direction Meido will still pull him in. It has it's own vaccum. No matter which direction he goes it will still pull him towards itself.

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    • Itachi blitz before sesshomaru pulls out his sword and can tell the direction he is gonna swing the sword while pulling it out cause of Pre cog

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    • Itachi needs only an instant to grow Susanoo as seen when he tanked Kirin.

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    • Susano'o is helping him not get sucked into Meido how exactly? It's Dura negating and BFR



      Again Astral it does not matter how he swings it, Itachi isn't gonna be like "He's getting ready to make a Meido" at best he's gonna think it's a shockwave and prepare to dodge only to get tore apart amd sucked into the umderworld

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    • And to boot Speeds Equal so where is this "lol Itachi blitz" coming from?

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    • tye fact that Itachi would blitz him before he pulls his sword out while using pre cog to see which way the sword would have been pulled out before he does it gives the advantage to Itachi

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    • Itachi fra

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    • Itachi FRA if I haven't made that clear

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    • @Astral



      Speeds equal, precog isn't helping him avoid Meido again he isn't gonna see where it appears

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    • Itachi Uchiha via Tsukuyomi and Izanami

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    • Hst master wrote:
      @Astral


      Speeds equal, precog isn't helping him avoid Meido again he isn't gonna see where it appears

      Itachi has the speed advantage with Shunshin and pre cog helps wiht Itachi seeing attacks that wont be Meido because he will be upclose when he uses Shunshin.  Im pretty sure Sessho wont use Meido at point blank cause he will get sucked in as well

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    • ^ Except he and the Original user Shishiki have both done so only using their own Meido's to avoid the other

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    • Itachi doesnt have a Meido which means Sessho wont be able to avoid his, and it doesnt matter because Itachi would still be able to attack before he pulls out his sword

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    • Sesshomaru is capable of using more than one......

      Also you're making it seem like Itachi would ap one shot him which is not the case

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    • first of all what does Sessho scale to in the 7A tier???  

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    • Over 900 megatons, he's Mountain+

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    • Sesshoumarus Meidou would Oneshot Itachi, that is a given. As would Bakusaiga, which is at least 995 Megatons. 

      Fun fact: Sesshoumaru can come back from dimensional BFF (Meidou) via Tensaiga. 

      So even when he dedices to swallow himself and Itachi into the other dimension, he can safe himself.

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    • ^ Along with the netherworlds Jyaki killing a normal human if in too long.

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    • I mean, he's susanoo absolutly no-selled a 600 megatons attack with zero damages, so that at least should be able to take 900 megatons without too much.



      Also, SBA, Edo Itachi, so stuff like chakra costs for susanoo aren't factors

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    • Meidou does not work with AP. Its a 100% pure hax move. And it swallows every move, be it elemental, physical or intangible/spatial. It would render Susannon and Itachi with it useless.

      Btw, found the first piece of Kagome resisting Narakus Mindtwist:

      http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-a6scEwej2fo/VmtWemqopTI/AAAAAAAW_io/A_0xE-M74wg/w1900/14.jpg

      Its even the resistance to the same Mind, Body, Soul mindtwist I linked earlier.

      I will search a little more to find InuYashas resistance as well. 

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    • Edo Itachi actually scales above the Kirin by a good amount in his base lol lets not forget that this itachi was healthy.  He also scales from Naruto in KCM and Naruto's base in the war was already 600mt

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    • Itachi mindhaxes right off the bat,it is his first move in any fight.And this guy has no resistance.

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    • So, err...What are the votes so that I can add them to the OP?

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    • I'm for itachi

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    • Assuming this isn't a stomp since he wins with a glance

      5 for Itachi (Me, Dz, Rocker, Risci, Astral)

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    • (Gargolye,Me,Astral,BFF,Korudo, Dzhindzholia, Risci,Stryk3r) 8 for Itachi.

      (Raven) 1 for Sesshomura, Grace period started 13 hours ago.

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    • Looking back maybe BFF did not vote for him. Still 7 votes for Itachi.

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    • Miss count of the decade

      My bad!

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    • No problem, happens to the best of us.

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    • sesshomaru For raven's reasons

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    • I vote Sesshōmaru for raven reasons.

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    • mean, affecting the soul does not make the mindhax stronger, it just means that its also soul manipulation.

      By extension, saying that is superior for affecting the soul is like saying that resisting a flame that can burn souls means that you now are immune to heat up to 142 nonillion kelvins, as that does not affect souls

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    • And it is not mind hax anyways... It is just illusions.

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    • Sesshomaru for reason above.

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    • tfw everyone is voting Sessho now. Can I ask for the exact reasons here? Because now it's just a FRA trend all of a sudden.

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    • I'll vote Sesshomaru for Raven's reasons.

      Btw, Sessho's feat is quite low-balled, so don't forget that too. 

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    • thats the problem with the argument FRA lol was the thread about using it ever resolved??

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      tfw everyone is voting Sessho now. Can I ask for the exact reasons here? Because now it's just a FRA trend all of a sudden.

      Especially when these reason are being argued against.

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    • would like for that as well.

      All itachi needs to do is point a finger, look int the eye and other stuff on that level.

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    • RebubleUselet
      RebubleUselet removed this reply because:
      Probably a lie as I'm too lazy
      15:43, July 23, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • I should note that a feat being lowballed doesn't mean much in a vs debate as we go by what we accepted as feats. So if the lowball is what accepted, then regardless of whether it was a lowball doesn't matter.

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    • What does it take to activate Shunshin again?

      @Dragon

      Well it does matter here. Not much, but it does.

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    • Noting really... Just thinking about it and leaping

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    • nothing is needed to activate Shunshin lol its so fast that its said to be teleportation lol

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    • btw, Sessho's feat is 1101.15 Megatons in which equals 1.10115 Gigatons of TnT....that baseline High 7-A btw....

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    • No? It's 935 Megatons, which is 7-A.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      btw, Sessho's feat is 1101.15 Megatons in which equals 1.10115 Gigatons of TnT....that baseline High 7-A btw....

      Even if he was, that isn't more than a X2 AP advantage and AP isn't even whats being discussed

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    • RebubleUselet wrote:
      No? It's 935 Megatons, which is 7-A.

      I forgot the subtract the 15% hollowness..>.> 

      RIP

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    • Although, considering the nature of the characters, AP is not really a factor here.

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    • AP does not help him with stand Tsukuyomi.

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    • How in the hell does Tsukuyomi > illusions that attack mind, body and soul? I'm missing the gap in logic here.

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    • Golden Void wrote:
      How in the hell does Tsukuyomi > illusions that attack mind, body and soul? I'm missing the gap in logic here.

      Affecting the soul is soul manipulation. It does not make the mindhax itself stronger, it simply means that it affects the soul as well

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    • @Golden

      Because the battle wiki bases potency on how many one can affect with mind hax at once...and Tsukuyomi>>>Genjutsu which could affect hundreds of people at once (And that's low balling)

      Edit: If mind hax potency was more based on what it could actually do...we would be having a different conversation.

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    • Golden Void wrote:
      How in the hell does Tsukuyomi > illusions that attack mind, body and soul? I'm missing the gap in logic here.

      Also because

      1. It is not mind hax.

      2.. It was not resisted.

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    • It was resisted by Kagome, as linked a little above. And of course it is mindhax. 

      http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-a6scEwej2fo/VmtWemqopTI/AAAAAAAW_io/A_0xE-M74wg/w1900/14.jpg

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    • Sesshomura is not Kagome. And it looks more like tangible illusions to me, shown by where Sess Homura blew it away with a wave of his hand after noticing it was not real via its smell.

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    • So Kagome resisted it? Why does that automatically = Sessho can resist it?

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    • Also the guy doing the illusions notes that Kagome in particular is not affected by it, he says nothing of the sort about Sesshomura.

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    • Im probably gonna have to vote Sesshomura, based on what the others have voted. I still dont see whats the probably with the mind hax

      >Fancier way of saying FRA 

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    • The whole issue is whether Sessho can actually resist it.

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    • What do you mean whats the probability? Itachi uses it 100% of the resistance isn't on the level to resist it.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      So Kagome resisted it? Why does that automatically = Sessho can resist it?

      I claimed some posts ago that Kagome and Inuyasha resisted Illusions, and that Inuyasha, in the end, still got mindtwisted by Narakus Shikon jewel - whereas Sesshoumaru, who stood next to him (both were affected by the space which causes the mindtwist) was unaffected.

      Rocker asked for me to provide the scans of Kagome and InuYasha to resists Mindtwist in the first place, to determine that Narakus Illusions worked on people who have proven resistance.

      The panel I linked is the first. Given that I have to dig through 560 chapters, since my word is not enough, I just link them one by one - granted that might cause a little confusion.

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    • Yeah, but the mindhax just isn't that impressive compared to itachi's, and affecting the soul does not make the mindhax stronger

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      I claimed some posts ago that Kagome and Inuyasha resisted Illusions, and that Inuyasha, in the end, still got mindtwisted by Narakus Shikon jewel - whereas Sesshoumaru, who stood next to him (both were affected by the space which causes the mindtwist) was unaffected.

      Rocker asked for me to provide the scans of Kagome and InuYasha to resists Mindtwist in the first place, to determine that Narakus Illusions worked on people who have proven resistance.

      The panel I linked is the first. Given that I have to dig through 560 chapters, since my word is not enough, I just link them one by one - granted that might cause a little confusion.

      My issue is that Sesshomura is not resisting it. He is just smelling his way through it and destroying the illusions because he knows they are not real. This is somewthing that can not be done in Tsukuyomi.

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    • Illusions arent all mind based tho, if it was in there head than yeah but if it was just messing with their perception its not mind hax

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    • I mean, it is, but its biological.

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    • -Mind hax can effect the soul

      Then this is not only mind hax but soul hax. It's not one ability, it's multiple. The mind hax part can still be weak, Having another power added to it does not make it stronger. It just means that a mental resistance is not enough to save you, but a spiritual resistance is also needed.

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    • Also can I get a source of this "Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu in which is stronger than one that can mindhax 10 people"?

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      Also can I get a source of this "Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu in which is stronger than one that can mindhax 10 people"?

      Ten people is an understatement, more like a whole stadium of people.

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    • And where is it stated that Tsukuyomi is above this (I mean it would be common sense, however sources would be nice)

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    • @Dragon

      Even Itachi's base Genjutsu is better than Kabuto's Genjutsu which took out an entire stadium of people.

      He could reverse genjutsu a genjutsu specialist.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      And where is it stated that Tsukuyomi is above this (I mean it would be common sense, however sources would be nice)

      By the fact that tsuk is desribed as unbreakable and that this can be broken with realitive ease.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      And where is it stated that Tsukuyomi is above this (I mean it would be common sense, however sources would be nice)

      There is no ditrect statement, but we do know that any sharingan technique is stronger than normal genjutsu. that includes the basic sharingan. Then MS techniques is >>>> 3 tomoe which is >>>> normal genjutsu.

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    • didnt Kakashi resist Kabuto's genjutsu???  Itachi trapped Kakashi in genjutsus for days 

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    • I see. Has Sessho resisted Genjutsu on that level. That is kinda what Raven's vote hinges on iirc. If so, all the FRA will be counted.

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    • Oh yeah and as Astral said Kkashi easily dispell Nirvana and for Tsukuyomi he got hit so bad he was hospitalised for ages.

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    • Also, Itachi managed to make his ex percieve decades of life under a second

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      Also, Itachi managed to make his ex percieve decades of life under a second

      In a billionth of a second to be precise.

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    • It also fried her brain, didn't it.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      It also fried her brain, didn't it.

      Honestly not sure if it fried her brain but it caused her to die, so yeah.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:

      Honestly not sure if it fried her brain but it caused her to die, so yeah.

      I mean... why woud she die from having visions of having kids? Itachi can't be that good in bed.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:

      I mean... why woud she die from having visions of having kids? Itachi can't be that good in bed.

      lmao, but yeah you make sense, I guess it probably just fried her brain. Honestly I thought he made her die of old age in the dream tricking her body into killing itself but if not then your idea makes sense.

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    • My argument always has been pretty much the following: 

      Naraku has at least an equally potent Mindtwist - Illusions which affect the Mind, the body and the soul at the same time from the same attack. Whereas Itachis only target the Mind and Body.

      Kagome has resisted that form of mind-twist. Mind. Body. Soul. This was Chapter ~50 and first form Naraku. Naraku has in total 6 different forms. 

      Later forms of Naraku managed to mindtwist Kagome. Later Naraku forms also managed to mindtwist Inuyasha, who developed a resistance to it. 

      The final fight against EOS Naraku (5th to 6th form) took partially part INSIDE of Naraku. Where the corrupted Shikon Jewel automatically causes mindtwist and mindposession - sucessfully working on Inuyasha, who previously resisted Mindtwist from Naraku, who previously sucessfully managed to mindtwist Kagome, who previously resisted the Chapter 50 Mindtwist (mind, body soul). 

      Sesshoumaru, being with Inuyasha was not affected by the Shikon Jewels autonoumus mindtwist and posession, as such the argument he has resistance to at least that level. 

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    • thats kinda death manipulation because he can make her die in her head and die in reality and it kinda ignore durability when you think about it lo wonder why this hasnt been added to his profile

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      I see. Has Sessho resisted Genjutsu on that level. That is kinda what Raven's vote hinges on iirc. If so, all the FRA will be counted.

      See my post above. I hope I explained the logic behind good enough.

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    • AstralKing7 wrote: didnt Kakashi resist Kabuto's genjutsu???  Itachi trapped Kakashi in genjutsus for days 

      he didn't, Gai,Sakura and herself all dispelled it before it could take effect

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    • Naraku has at least an equally potent Mindtwist - Illusions which affect the Mind, the body and the soul at the same time from the same attack. Whereas Itachis only target the Mind and Body.

      Irrelevent. The body and soul are not important, the mind his. Your logic is that Sessho resist soul manipulation, so a better mindhax will be inefective.

      Kagome has resisted that form of mind-twist. Mind. Body. Soul. This was Chapter ~50 and first form Naraku. Naraku has in total 6 different forms. 

      Affecting the soul is not, in any way, mind hax, and it doesn't matter here. Mind hax only matters here, and he astonishingly lacks the feats.

      Later forms of Naraku managed to mindtwist Kagome. Later Naraku forms also managed to mindtwist Inuyasha, who developed a resistance to it. 

      That is not impressive in the least compared to what Itachi scales from.

      The final fight against EOS Naraku (5th to 6th form) took partially part INSIDE of Naraku. Where the corrupted Shikon Jewel automatically causes mindtwist and mindposession - sucessfully working on Inuyasha, who previously resisted Mindtwist from Naraku, who previously sucessfully managed to mindtwist Kagome, who previously resisted the Chapter 50 Mindtwist (mind, body soul). 

      Again, that still lacks the feats.

      Sesshoumaru, being with Inuyasha was not affected by the Shikon Jewels autonoumus mindtwist and posession, as such the argument he has resistance to at least that level. 

      No. Fodderizing mind hax in the hundreds=/= affecting someone who resist a mindhax that affects a few people.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      My argument always has been pretty much the following: 

      Naraku has at least an equally potent Mindtwist - Illusions which affect the Mind, the body and the soul at the same time from the same attack. Whereas Itachis only target the Mind and Body.

      Kagome has resisted that form of mind-twist. Mind. Body. Soul. This was Chapter ~50 and first form Naraku. Naraku has in total 6 different forms. 

      Later forms of Naraku managed to mindtwist Kagome. Later Naraku forms also managed to mindtwist Inuyasha, who developed a resistance to it. 

      The final fight against EOS Naraku (5th to 6th form) took partially part INSIDE of Naraku. Where the corrupted Shikon Jewel automatically causes mindtwist and mindposession - sucessfully working on Inuyasha, who previously resisted Mindtwist from Naraku, who previously sucessfully managed to mindtwist Kagome, who previously resisted the Chapter 50 Mindtwist (mind, body soul). 

      Sesshoumaru, being with Inuyasha was not affected by the Shikon Jewels autonoumus mindtwist and posession, as such the argument he has resistance to at least that level. 

      None of which has affected the same number of people as Niirvana which is faar below the level of Itachi.

      This is what I said, that illusion technique that Naraku has is a technique with soul manipulation on top of it. Let us says that Sesshomura did escape it. That means he resisted mind hax that affects a couple of people at once and he also has soul resistance. The fact that the mind hax comes with soul resistance does not make it any better than mind hax that can trap you in your own mind and condense time at the user's discretion.

      Secondly Sesshomura seems to smell his way through the illusions making think that the illusions do not control your 5 senses the same way genjutsu does. Meaning on the mind level it is on a lower leel than genjutsu. He could tell what was real and what was not because it did not have a smell.

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    • ke, litiraly, by your logic frisk resisting asgore's fire means that he can resist a fire hundreds of times hotter than anything they ever interacted with because asgore's flames hurt the soul too

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    • AstralKing7 wrote:
      thats kinda death manipulation because he can make her die in her head and die in reality and it kinda ignore durability when you think about it lo wonder why this hasnt been added to his profile

      Imagine we put it on the profile, people would cry so hard I can not be bothered lmao.

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    • You are of a complete different believe and I dont think we will agree on that matter. I think we argue and debate to convince the people who are maybe not that well versed with the series and cast their votes given the made arguments. So I dont think this endless back and forth is really doing us any good.

      I accept your opinion on the matter. Thats all I can say after 2 days of constant debating, But i disagree with it. No hard feelings.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      You are of a complete different believe and I dont think we will agree on that matter. I think we argue and debate to convince the people who are maybe not that well versed with the series and cast their votes given the made arguments. So I dont think this endless back and forth is really doing us any good.

      I accept your opinion on the matter. Thats all I can say after 2 days of constant debating, But i disagree with it. No hard feelings.

      But try to give a reason why then. Explain how does affecting the soul correlate to stronger mindhax? The two are completly different abilities, and you might disagree, but the wiki goes by certain standards, and mind-hax is counted by numbers.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      You are of a complete different believe and I dont think we will agree on that matter. I think we argue and debate to convince the people who are maybe not that well versed with the series and cast their votes given the made arguments. So I dont think this endless back and forth is really doing us any good.

      I accept your opinion on the matter. Thats all I can say after 2 days of constant debating, But i disagree with it. No hard feelings.

      Idm disagreements but it is up to us to convince the OP and it is also how the wiki has been doing these fights. If it randomly changed now that would be weird.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      ke, litiraly, by your logic frisk resisting asgore's fire means that he can resist a fire hundreds of times hotter than anything they ever interacted with because asgore's flames hurt the soul too

      Good analogy.

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    • 16Nirvana

      Again Kakashi and co. didn't resist this, they dispelled it before it could take effect

      Resisting would be that it already took effect and they were no selling it.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      AstralKing7 wrote: didnt Kakashi resist Kabuto's genjutsu???  Itachi trapped Kakashi in genjutsus for days 

      he didn't, Gai,Sakura and herself all dispelled it before it could take effect

      If they dispelledi it that means she is resistant lol Kakashi even said he was right to have taught her how genjutsu before the exams.  That means Kakashi himself dispelled the genjutsu if Sakura wasnt effected by it.

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    • I have explained my reasoning for an extended period of time. I am not mad, angry or whatever at how you view these things. The only thing which I will add as a last thing is that the supposed "standard" for how to treat and scale mindhax as a whole is something which needs to be reworked. Another user linked a discussion regarding the topic and I will create a revision thread for it. The discussion was also inconclusive from what I recall, which also is what I got from the rules:

      Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

      Both being the important word.

      Its not exclusive the quantity which is the deciding factor.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      16Nirvana

      Again Kakashi and co. didn't resist this, they dispelled it before it could take effect

      Resisting would be that it already took effect and they were no selling it.

      That is not our point anymore, we are talking about whether the level of resistance surpasses even Nirvana and whether Sesshomura resisted it in the first place.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      16Nirvana
      Again Kakashi and co. didn't resist this, they dispelled it before it could take effect

      Resisting would be that it already took effect and they were no selling it.

      And that matters how..? Tsukoyomi still fodderizes it, as its completly impossible to dispell while this was dispelled by a genin

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    • Sesshomaru fra.

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:
      I have explained my reasoning for an extended period of time. I am not mad, angry or whatever at how you view these things. The only thing which I will add as a last thing is that the supposed "standard" for how to treat and scale mindhax as a whole is something which needs to be reworked. Another user linked a discussion regarding the topic and I will create a revision thread for it. The discussion was also inconclusive from what I recall, which also is what I got from the rules:

      Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

      Both being the important word.

      Its not exclusive the quantity which is the deciding factor.

      It is not exclusive but it is generally the main factor and that was so called inconclusive because it chanaged nothing the standard remained the same. Also if you want to argue it you would have to make the thread now not after wards.

      No one said you are mad.

      Also again the soul aspect is just another part of it, and does not add to mind resistance that is soul resistance. And again you have not proved that Sesshomura actually resisted it it just looks like he breaks the illusions because he knows they are not real.

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    • wtf lmfao the fact that they dispelled it means they resisted it.  THats how it works, Naruto almost dispelled Itachi's finger genjutsu but failed because he didnt have perfect control over his chakra

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    • RavenSupreme wrote:

      Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

      Yes, however the point is the fact that effecting the soul is Soul Manipulation, not Mind Manipulation. If said ability attacks the mind and soul, then it is both powers. This does not strengthen one or the other. It never has.

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    • @Astral

      No...no it doesn't

      Kakashi and co. were able to dispel it BEFORE it takes effect not DURING

      @Ricsi

      Because Tsukuyomi is being scaled from this when this didn't even have a chance to work in the 1st place

      To put it simply

      Nirvana = Didn't hit

      Tsukuyomi = Hit

      it would be completely different if Kakashi got trapped under Nirvana and was resisting it.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      @Astral

      No...no it doesn't

      Kakashi and co. were able to dispel it BEFORE it takes effect not DURING

      @Ricsi

      Because Tsukuyomi is being scaled from this when this didn't even have a chance to work in the 1st place

      To put it simply

      Nirvana = Didn't hit

      Tsukuyomi = Hit

      it would be completely different if Kakashi got trapped under Nirvana and was resisting it.

      Nirvana did hit if not they would not see the feathers. The feathers are not real. If it did not hit they would not hae seen the feathers. And anyway Naraku's mind hax has not affected even 1/10 of the people that Nirvana has.

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    • do you not see the people asleep??  The fact that they are asleep means it already took effect but they resisted it by releasing the genjutsu.  

      That logic your using is like saying that Itachi's genjutsu didnt work on killer bee because Gyuki dispelled it lol.  

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    • Because Tsukuyomi is being scaled from this when this didn't even have a chance to work in the 1st place

      To put it simply

      Nirvana = Didn't hit

      Tsukuyomi = Hit

      it would be completely different if Kakashi got trapped under Nirvana and was resisting it.

      What are you talking about? Mirvana did work on dozens to houndreds, the fact that genin could break it doesn't mean it cannot affect that amount of people. That's like saying the IT is not planetary because it was blocked by Sasuke..

      No, kakashi's resistance has nothing to do with any of this. Tsuku is plain out stated to be stronger than this genjutsu. Kakashi doesn't even matter

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    • My god. The reasoning above is litiraly that resistence to soul manipulation allows him to resist a much better mindhax. If this ever gets added I'll just ask it to be removed, as the wiki's standards of mindhax go litiraly against that

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    • I am closing this until Raven make that thread. Because this is getting ridiculous. I never expected a Naruto vs Inuyasha match to have this issue.

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