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  • I won't beat around the bush. I'm actually pretty pissed off when i see "1-A growth Reinhard" or "1-A hax Reinhard" being used as an argument when we never mentioned them in page or some shit like that.

    So what i am gonna do is simple. Give some arguments supporting 1-A hax so that people may discuss it.

    1-A Hax argument

    • 既存の常識と ゃら 、 価値観と ゃら 、 すべて制圧する から こ そ の覇道なのだ。繧めて呑み込み、 塗り 替える 新世界の絶対法則がこ こ にある 。

    It is a Hadou that gains supremacy over all, be it existing common sense or values. Here is the absolute law of the new world swallowing and repainting all with its color

    Right here, we have Gladsheimr being described as a law of absoluteness of the new world. The term new world refers to the world that will overthrow Mercurius Known world that is ruled by his Law.

    • それはさながら、 旧い秩序を一掃する新たな世界の開闊を思わせる光だった。

    It was light that reminded me of the new world that sweeped off the old order

    The old order is, again, a reference to Mercurius law. Moreoever, Methuselah himself is part of the "old order" as he was direcly born from The Snake of Mercury's law.

    All of this are but minor thing to the real deal

    With its release on the world in Marie's route, everything in Suwahara City was consumed by Gladsheimr. The important statement is the : His Creation Figment engulfed the whole city, detaching it from the outer world

    In Interview, we get to understand more about its separation from Mercurius law

    • 世界法則から切り離された空間は距離と座標の概念を破壊する

    The space (Gladsheimr/Valhalla) was separated from the world laws (Mercurius'), and as such, concept of distance and coordinates were destroyed.

    Simply enough, due to its singularity, it completely disregards concepts in Mercurius world such as distance and coordinates for instance, to freely travel in the world. (It should be however noted that Gladsheimr can be forced to be engulfed in the Flow of Mercury)

    • 聖槍十三騎士団黒円卓第一位、首領ラインハルト・ハイドリヒがその身に宿す聖遺物。

    Additionally, much like Reinhard himself, the Longinuslanze Testament is a weapon born directly from Mercurius thoughts of dying. It literally embodies his desire to die and as such, should be completely capable of killing him

    • 流出の一歩手前にまで迫ったまさに究極の創造

    Ultimate Briah that is on verge of reaching the Atziluth

    This one is clear and simple. Reinhard Briah is powerful that is condisdered on the Atziluth degree (1-A when looking over the rankings of our system and Ewigkeits) despite being a Briah.

    • 間違いなく聖遺物としては作中トップの格と力を持ち、比肩できるのはマリィこと罪姫・正義の柱くらいのもの。

    Longinuslanze has even described as being equal to Ren Fuji Holy Relic, which houses Marie and is capable of replicating her curse/power

    • その後、詳しい経緯は不明だが黄昏の女神となったマリィの世界の統治に賛同し彼女の守護者の一角となる。

    In Marie's route, Reinhard loses to Ren Fuji, fully accepting Marie world. He is later reincarnated as a priest. However, it is stated should Marie's power weaken enough, his beastly nature and strength will come back. This is actually something by his own power and not related to his nature as an Apoptosis of Mercurius as the snake lost his self-destructive impulses due to him living in a world without foreknowledge

    1-A Growth

    This one is simple

    After the eigth swastika is opened, and with the use of Zonnenkind Atziluth. Reinhard is having his existence promoting to Hadou God.

    Nothing much to talk about really

    TL;DR

    • Reinhard Briah is completely separated from Mercurius law (albeit it can be forced into it) and is capable of destroying concepts within this law
    • Reinhard Spear being described as washing away "the old order" (Mercurius world/law)
    • Reinhard Spear being the manifesation of Mercurius desire to die
    • Reinhard can gain back his power even under Marie Law which reincarnated him as a priest. This has nothing to do with Mercurius and his nature and relation to the Snake
    • Reinhard Briah being described as being on the Atziluth degree
    • Reinhard Spear being stated to be comparable to Ren Fuji Holy Relic that houses Marie and is capable of replicating her curse

    I don't care whether this is agreed upon or not, i just don't want to hear this being mentioned again in VS threads.

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    • tbh this seems 1-A with hax not AP. We hax tier blah blah via hax before really hell keishirou is eventual 1-A so there is that

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    • Bump

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    • This is nice

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    • Following.

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    • Mmh... Following.

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    • Shouldn't that

      "Following just to see the chaos it will ensue" ? ovo

      That is...if chaos does ensue

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    • ALRF wrote:
      Shouldn't that

      "Following just to see the chaos it will ensue" ? ovo

      That is...if chaos does ensue

      There is no question if Chaos will ensue, only when.

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    • The only chaos I see that could appear is whether or not this is 1-A hax or 1-A AP.

      If the spear can actually kill Mercurius by stabbing him / shooting a beam of light though, that I would say is 1-A AP.

      Other stuff would be hax.

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    • I agree

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    • Bump

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    • Was powerleveling with the power of money son

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    • Oh shit i got the thread mixed up

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    • LMAO

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    • Kek

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    • Okay, time to break this down.

      1-A Growth: This is undeniable. Anyone who has read to the end of Marie and Rea's routes can account for this happening. Not much to say except "I agree".

      Reinhard's 1-A Shit: While most of the evidence hails from Dies Irae - Interview with Kaziklu Bey, which I have never read as it hasn't been translated. There are a few from Dies Irae ~Amantes Amentes~ that I vividly remember reading, not to mention that the screenshots and direct translations wash away my doubts. And I can't help but have to agree that Reinhard's Yetzirah and Briah are seemingly at a 1-A level. 



      So the only question, as Monarch Laciel mentioned, is whether or not this correlates with Hax or AP. I'm inclined to believe the former as the lance's hax is what really does the killing, but what do I know. 

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    • tbh i feel thats more to the hax and lance only not rein's punching AP but eh

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    • Bump.

      I'm more inclined to believe its hax

      Gods can't really die by normal attack so i doubt that its a matter of AP.

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    • Take note that some hax can actually be measured by Tiering, like EE and Reality Warping.

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    • >  He is later reincarnated as a priest

      So much perfection was to be retained by celibacy.

      xDDD

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    • I am not very knowledgeable on the series, but it seems like hax to me

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    • All right, while I am not knowledgeable about the verse, I'll state my opinion.

      The stuff about Reinhard and his Ulitmate Penetration Tool being born from Mercurius' will to die sounds more something that could solidify the possibility of the Spear being -A, rather than being a direct proof.

      The stuff about Marie seems fine, though f it's on par with Ren's Holy relic, wouldn't make that 1-A too?

      Also, I disagree with it being hax: if Reinhard can actually kill Merc with that thing, or even manipulate a 1-A realm's law, that definitely AP, and the latter some level of Reality Warping on the same scale.

      Now you are like: "but what about the Eastern Expedition? They have 1-A hax, not AP", which is true, however, what distinguishes them from Rein's case, is that their hax have actually some sort of special ability, that works on a 1-A, rather than simply a weapon capable of killing one without a specific effect.

      By what you are describing, Rein would have to throw his spear at merc, and he would die. That would be it. This sounds like AP

      In other's case, like Keyshirou, he is actually able to absorb their powers/life energy, whatever. This sounds like a special ability.

      So, I'd say that Reinhard could be "possibly/likely 1-A" with the spear, rather than a solid rating.

      But this is just my opinion, and again, my knowledge of the verse is very lacking. Though, nice job ALFR at translating this stuff!

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    • Your opinion is taken into consideration.

      And thanks! <3

      I'll get into your post later as i am kinda busy (and kinda lazy/tired) to reply now

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    • Both sides make a valid point.

      @ALRF Doesn't Rindou wield a full power Longinus as well since Reinhard granted her the Longinus power? 

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    • Yes.

      In fact:

      • With almost unconscious movement, she (Rindou Koga) drags a bow with an arrow and sets her aim at the exposed and complete defenseless Tokoyo
      • Simultaneously,spinning the spell of the golden afterglow of the lost soul that naturally overflows from the inside, in front of the name she cried to

      Main poin: Rindou Koga longinusfies some random arrow and bow through the use of Reinhard power, royally fucking the Tenmas (and ignoring concepts of distance and distorting space)

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    • Off Topic.



      Thanks @DMB for creating a new meme. 



      "Reinhard throws his Ultimate Penetration Tool"

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    • @DMB well "Reinhard throws his Ultimate Penetration Tool" is certainly lovely but yeah that sort of makes sense. Some of his hax is 1-A but only LLT has a legit 1-A thing. So maybe 4-A likely 1-A with hax and LLT (explain nature in AP section)?

      Off topic here but about ren since his curse is from marie wouldn't that be 1-A via holy relic's decapitation/hax (well only that hax)?

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    • What would this mean for LLT's passive Mind and Soul Hax? Would they be a 1-A level?

      Would that dramatically improve the resistances of the main characters?

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    • that likely would increase resistance if 1-A soul and mind was legit but still no clue if that would be legit? idek

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    • Unlikely

      They've never otherwise shown such a level of resistance, it would be an outlier at best even if we assumed it was correct. Which would be extrapolation.

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    • As I have told in other threads, Reinhard's 1-A shit is 100% legit. Another argument for LLT having 1-A hax is that the novel constantly compares The Spear with Nigredo, aka the 1(-A) Punch Man.

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    • Machina's punches being 1-A in base isn't legit though. This was said in another thread.

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    • I don't remember, and I don't see why it shouldn't be 1-A since the evidence is very blatant.

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    • Not really

      There's exactly one instant of Machina's punches being 1-A in base, which is when Ren has just started going Atziluth and worries that Machina's punches could still hurt him if he gained a history.

      It was determined that it was an outlier, and that KKK's Taikyoku system contradicted it.

      There's also the fact that despite Ren supposedly being in Atziluth, he was still fighting with base Machina, who was able to physically hurt him. Which makes no sense.

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    • I don't see why it contradicts the lore. Machina literally became part of Reinhard, and as we are discussing here, he has 1-A hax of his own.

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    • Monarch Laciel wrote:
      Not really

      There's exactly one instant of Machina's punches being 1-A in base, which is when Ren has just started going Atziluth and worries that Machina's punches could still hurt him if he gained a history.

      It was determined that it was an outlier, and that KKK's Taikyoku system contradicted it.

      There's also the fact that despite Ren supposedly being in Atziluth, he was still fighting with base Machina, who was able to physically hurt him. Which makes no sense.

      Isn't that the 1-A growth though?



      Ren's law begins to emanate, but in the meantime, he's still fighting Machina before he can fully emanate.



      How is that a contradiction?

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    • If he is fighting Machina, who was in unrestricted base I assume seeing as we are arguing for 1-A one punch in base, then at that moment he's 5-B. Not 1-A.

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    • Sooo still time to say "I agree"?

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    • I agree if this is hax.

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    • I think one could argue for mind hax resistance on a 1-A scale for Reinhard

      But 1-A soul hax resistance? Definitely not

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    • Another thing that kind of bothered me is: Can Mercurius actually kill himself?

      I know it sounds like a dumb question, but if Reinhard born from this exact desire, but yet Merc really cannot commit suicide like that, then why would Reinhard or even his spear (someone/thing that was created with his power) actually be capable of doing it?

      His, in fact, is a desire, which somewhat hints that it's something that he wishes to do, but he can't.

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    • He can kill himself

      It's just his desire to die in Marie's embrace actually throws all of that into the window

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    • ALRF wrote:
      He can kill himself

      It's just his desire to die in Marie's embrace actually throws all of that into the window

      Damn, talk about dedication.

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    • yep he is pretty dedicated to die to his waifu. He wants to die but ofc for waifu

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    • And his creation (Ren)  has her as a girlfriend while Merc  is in a corner crying because he stole her and his desire v:

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    • 1-A Growth

      Besides the eighth swastika, He can force growth too, In Kae route, he tries to force emanate when only seventh swastika open and Gladsheimr in a fragile state but by doing that he would never attain his full power.

      https://imgur.com/a/QJOTm5U

      1-A Spear

      I agree that spear true form is definitely 1-A, but he doesn't always use it in that form.

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    • Zoorooz117 wrote:
      1-A GrowthBesides the eighth swastika, He can force growth too, In Kae route, he tries to force emanate when only seventh swastika open and Gladsheimr in a fragile state but by doing that he would never attain his full power.

      https://imgur.com/a/QJOTm5U

      "There was no point for Reinhard to try and force something he could simply not do at the moment"

      "What do you hope to achieve by emanating in your current state? The ghetto would remain intact. Your castle, on the other hand, shall fall."

      Sounds more like he'd straight up fail than just become a lesser degree of 1-A.

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    • Form the beginning his Gladsheimr is in near collapse state and this quote

      "Reinhard would end up never attaining his full power"

      It didn't indicate he will fail to become 1-A, I think he will become 1-A but lost Gladsheimr in the process, and this situation happens because of only seventh swastika open, dead of 3 Commander and Ren Scherzo reject exist of Gladsheimr.

      In a normal situation, If he tries to force emanation, I don't even think he will be lost Gladsheimr.

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    • does Rindou have immeasurable taikyoku too? due to being Habaki's Apoptosis

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    • I don’t think Habaki or Ammy have immeasurable taikyoku, so I don’t think so

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    • From the Masadaverse Explanation Page

      "
      Habak
      The Apoptosis is always identical in scale and power to the original Hadou deity."
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    • But why should they have immeasurable toyota? The only reason that Rindou could have it is if she, as the apoptosis, tries to kill Habaki while he is amped by Hajun/Tumor, otherwise they have 65 taikyoku.

      Also if i'm wrong pls correct me.

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    • @Ren Neither Habaki or Ammy are Hajun’s apoptosis though. Though it can be a bit confusing when the apoptosis is referred to as a cancer cell and then Hajun has a Tumor.

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    • ok seriously it seems mostly everyone agrees he has 1-A stuff but...where does it put?

      I hear on

      1. 1-A hax

      2. LLT 1-A

      3. 1 and 2?

      For me personally he would be 1-A via lance and some of his hax just striking and AP are still 4-A i guess...

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    • The Immeasurable Habaki comes from the Tumor Mandala boost which is basically the same deal with Hajun (sans the "i'm always stronger than you")

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    • Aw come on, this thing deleted my post.



      Anyways the thing is that I'm up to some of his hax being 1-A (LLT, Gladsheimr and some of his resistances seeing that Ren can't OHK Rein or even damage him until they got the Atziluth).



      The AP of LLT is the same that Reinhard has, if he is 4-A then 4-A LLT AP. As someone said before the lance grows in power as the Beast does, and in doing so it takes some plot holes out of the way.

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    • bump because we seriously need to add what's what

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    • if there isn't nothing that contradicts Reinhard being 1-A in base, then I agree. Yes, the spear grows in power as Reinhard does,(it's explained in the VN) so it can't just be 1-A spear and 4-A Reinhard

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    • Since this is going slow i will post my opinion about how thing should be.

      1-A Growth, this one is undeaniable and only applies to his 4-A key.

      Gladsheimr should have a "at least multiversal+ range, posibly higher" seen as that thing destroyed the concepts of distance and coordinates and can move freely inside and outside of the Throne.

      His briah should give him the ability to soul rip someone form the influence of a 1-A character.

      His mid-godly should be a high end since everyone is capable of regenereting from being erased by Machina .

      LLT should have dura negation on a 1-A lvl, since nobody in the game is capable of stoping a hit of this thing bar Merc.

      The same could be said of the erasure since it's stated that both Rein and his weapon are the physical manifestation of Merc's death wish, so it should be able to affect him in some way or another.

      And his curse as it is capable of taking souls under his commandment, the same souls that originally were from Merc.

      Some of his resistances should be upgraded too: the soul resistance with his briah, the conceptual OHK curse of this woman (btw Rein no selled this in a weakened state) and his EE resistance (Machina mentions that his weapon was as good as the trash in front of him).



      This is my point of view of the things, the experts should decide what to do, and if something in this little paragraph doesn't make sense is probably bc my medium/bad english, sorry.

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    • You sumed up in a gewd way, Tony

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    • Really? thanks!

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    • Tony di bugalu wrote: his EE resistance (Machina mentions that his weapon was as good as the trash in front of him).

      When? I distinctly remember Machina's punches being states as one of the few things that could actually hurt and potentially kill (albeit we know not permanently because lolapoptosis) Reinhard

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    • IIRC it was in Marie route, just before the final battle. I can find the scan in english but it would be better to have the original one. Anyways i'm going to search it, just gimme a moment.

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    • I was wrong, it was in the final battle against Machina in Kei route. 
      Machina briah



      In Marie route he says that  "a thousand a thousand tries would likely bear fruit" but he don't even want to try bc he doesn't want to die and be resurrected again.

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    • pretty good sum up tony.

      Some resistence could be upgrade but yes he has 1-A growth (though it takes a bit of time), LLT and briah are on that scale so some of his haxes reach that far. Though how would one word it?

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    • Thanks!

      I'm not good wording things but it could go to his feats and some note at the end.

      This is how i would do it (to some extent) but someone else should do it.

      Tier: ... 4-A, eventually became 1-A​ ...

      Powers and Abilities: ... Durability Negation​​​​​, ​Resistance to ...  and Conceptual Attacks (The curse of Marie didn't hurt him or something like that).

      Attack Potency: ... Multi-Solar System level (Equal to Amakasu Masahiko’s Gods summoned through Ragnarok, whom are stronger than Huanglong, who is in turn stronger than his Tatari self, Nakiri Kuubou), eventually became Outerverse level. Can ignore durability in a variety of ways.

      Speed: ... Varies with Nilfheimr Fenriswolf, eventually became Nigh-Omnipresent normally, Omnipresent in his own territory

      Lifting Strength:  At least Class 10, eventually became Irrelevant

      'Striking Strength: ... 'Multi-Solar System Class, eventually became Outerversal

      'Durability: ... 'Multi-Solar System level (Equal to Amakasu's Gods), eventually became Outerverse level

      Range: ... at least Multiversal+possibly "higher (or Irrelevant), the one that seems best to you" with teleportation via Gladsheimr 

      Intelligence: ... Furthermore, Gladsheimr grants him access to the memories and experiences of his one hundred million legionnaires, giving him the combined equivalent of 6.1 billion years of experience on the battlefield. Eventually became Nigh-Omniscient

      Feats:

      Other Feats

      • ... even to those such as Schreiber who still retains his fear of him even while using his True Briah. His Beri'ah is capable of taking the souls that are under the regime of Mercurius. Injured an incomplete Gudou Goddess Marie with the Longinuslanze Testament.

      Notable Attacks/Techniques:

      Yetziraa

      • Longinuslanze Testament: ... t'o use it against Reinhard during the events of Kei's route​​​​​​As the manifestation of Merc's diying wish it can ignore durability to the point it was able to hurt Marie when Reinhard was weakneed and only ? of swastikas were open. 'LLT is comparable to the curse of Marie.

      Briah

      • Gladsheimr - Gullinkambi Fünfte Weltall: ... Einherjar he's obtained to do battle alongside him, giving him the advantage through sheer numbers via this method. Gladsheimr is capable of taking the souls under the regime of Mercurius and detach them from his world.


      sorry about the big paragraph but this is my imput of how this should go, as noted in some parts i dunno how to change them. My proposed changes are in black, just in case.

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    • we should add what makes him 1-A anyway before the growth. LLT was already 1-A in its full capacity (when all swastikas are open) and briah is on the atziluth scale tbh. Though this raises the question on LLT for IKABEY. I don't think it changed tbf and some scans from IKABEY does explain more on the LLT and how the seperation works just no 1-A growth

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    • bump

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    • bump we need this done

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    • Its better to use "will eventually become 1-A"

      Also, Reinhard needs Law Manipulation even in his IKaBey key, since Gladsheimr is described as a Law/Atziluth covering the city too. And him washing away Merc's world with the light of his own law should also qualify.

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    • but we also have to describe his base hax. Though that could be said for keishirou too so eh...regardless he 100% needs 1-A growth in DI key while the hax can probs just be in IKABEY key (and logically he would have kept his 1-A BS in DI)

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    • @Schro thats better.

      Law Manipulation (Gladsheimr has been described as the law of the new world and the Longinuslanze can destroy/wash away the world of Foreknowledge put the link to the images

      Existance Erasure (Can erase anything as long as it has a history while using Machina's Briah or with the Longinuslanze wich can erode the world of Mercurius). 

      Soul Manipulation (Can damage the soul with his regular attacks, can absorb the souls of the dead, and can constantly resurrect and restore the souls of those in Gladsheimr. His briah is capable of taking the souls out of the control of Mercurius). 

      Resistance to ... Conceptual Attacks (the curse of Marie didn't hurt him in the least when 2? swastikas were opened) and Existence Erasure (Machina said that his Briah is not enough to defeat him link to the image)

      Range: ... at least Multiversal+, possibly "higher (or Irrelevant), the one that seems best to you" with teleportation via Gladsheimr.

      Weaknesses: ... A strong enough power (1-A) is capable of enforcing itself into Gladsheimr.



      How about this then?

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    • the tiering should be like this

      Tier: At least 5-B likely higher, 1-A via LLT and Hax | 4-A, eventually become 1-A

      Attack Potency: At least planet level likely higher (Casually one-shotted Methuselah and destroyed all his mystery) Outerversal level via LLT and hax Gladsheimr has been described as the law of the new world and the Longinuslanze can destroy/wash away the world of Foreknowledge as well as being Mercurius's desire to die put the link to the images) , ... Multi-Solar System level (Equal to Amakasu Masahiko’s Gods summoned through Ragnarok, whom are stronger than Huanglong, who is in turn stronger than his Tatari self, Nakiri Kuubou), eventually became Outerverse level (After the 8th swastika opened Reinhard's existence was being promoted to a Hadou god or smth like that). Can ignore durability in a variety of ways.

      >we just need the 1-A via this and that in IKAbey key so we don't need to repeat it for DI key

      And we can add the powers along with range and such

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    • I guess I can be the one to add this... but I'm tired right now.

      I'll do it in a few (8 or more) hours.

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    • welp we can finally conclude this tbh lolz

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    • 1-A via LLT

      you mean  AP? because i don't agree with the 1-A LLT AP.

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    • I'm back

      Making changes now

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    • Good.

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    • Personally... I never expected him to be so broken.

      I good with it. Anyways, Monarch what do you think of all this?

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    • My feelings towards Masadaverse and Reinhard in particular tend to swing between love and hate, and having added all that in I feel it is swinging back towards love.

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    • Yay!

      Edit: Almost forgot about it. Thanks everyone for being so nice and end this with soo good results!

      Also remake that lavos match, I hate that thing >:v

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    • finally we are done

      Now he is stupidly broken hue hue

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    • Is there anyone who could possibly face him now?

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    • GEoM seals

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    • Phoenix821 wrote:
      Is there anyone who could possibly face him now?

      The only way I could think to beat him as he is now is to seal him.

      So probably The Emperor of Mankind, maybe a handful of people I don't know. 



      Edit: Ninja'd

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    • Phoenix821 wrote:
      Is there anyone who could possibly face him now?

      Me.

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    • I mean, we could all probably face him.

      It's just that an instant later we'd be mind screwed, soul screwed, blood screwed, existence screwed, blitz screwed, and just generally fucked

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    • you should also update Rindou's page (she has the Longinuslanze)

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    • Monarch Laciel wrote: I mean, we could all probably face him.

      It's just that an instant later we'd be mind screwed, soul screwed, blood screwed, existence screwed, blitz screwed, and just generally fucked

      ^this man gets it

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    • Perfect!

      Now, only was need of revision to add longinus feats in KKK.

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    • Ren Fujii wrote:
      you should also update Rindou's page (she has the Longinuslanze)

      No point, she doesn't use it until she becomes a Gudou God and even then she's only ever used it to gank people. Hell she doesn't even fight in general. From what I can remember her only feats were impressing everyone with a (a pretty cool) speech and getting done in by Akuro and Morei and coming back because lolapoptosis. 

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    • >now that's one great battle feats i'd say

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    • Yamatoryujin wrote:
      Ren Fujii wrote:
      you should also update Rindou's page (she has the Longinuslanze)
      No point, she doesn't use it until she becomes a Gudou God and even then she's only ever used it to gank people. Hell she doesn't even fight in general. From what I can remember her only feats were impressing everyone with a (a pretty cool) speech and getting done in by Akuro and Morei and coming back because lolapoptosis. 

      She doesn't use it, ok But can she use it? if yes. then she should be upgraded too.

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    • Yamatoryujin wrote:
      Ren Fujii wrote:
      you should also update Rindou's page (she has the Longinuslanze)
      No point, she doesn't use it until she becomes a Gudou God and even then she's only ever used it to gank people. Hell she doesn't even fight in general. From what I can remember her only feats were impressing everyone with a (a pretty cool) speech and getting done in by Akuro and Morei and coming back because lolapoptosis. 

      She's used the powers of Longinus prior to her true Godhood. Namely, at Mugen Ezo (not only did she weaken the Tenma and disturb Edo by using their Kajiri, she also one shot Momiji for good. However, she was receiving the influence of the Tumor Mandala's boost). Rindou however is good at being the team's general. And that's it. She's quite a good fencer and archer, but otherwise is a bitch next to her stronger companions. That is, until after hers and Habaki's Godhood. 

      Maybe her page could use her being what spreads the influence of Tumor Mandala, but that'd be it. Alongside Tenma Fukumetsu. 

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    • I agree we should add information on the Tumor Mandala but that would also require extra keys for Soujirou, Shiori, and Ryuusui(? I can't recall if she was also under its influence as well, or rather to what extent). Even then the LLT would still be under a 1-A key outside of her base unknown tier. 

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    • Yamatoryujin wrote:
      I agree we should add information on the Tumor Mandala but that would also require extra keys for Soujirou, Shiori, and Ryuusui(? I can't recall if she was also under its influence as well, or rather to what extent). Even then the LLT would still be under a 1-A key outside of her base unknown tier. 

      Making a key for them using their Tumor Mandala Taikyoku would be redundant IMO. They are at the same tier just weaker (though Habaki is MUCH stronger under the influence of the boost than he ever got at end game). We could, and just specify differences. I don't remember if Ryuusui was under the boost's influence, now that you say it (think she was, but don't quote me on that). Soujirou and Shiori definately were, and Yakou was being directly fed Hajun's shit so... 

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