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  • Dark649
    Dark649 closed this thread because:
    Concluded.
    11:35, July 10, 2018

    Dark649 said that Lord Boros strongest energy seems to be AP-based, however we cannot use author statements such as Garou can fight with him since we don't use them anymore, for example Shigeo is not scaled anymore to Tornado of Terror.

    While I'm not knowledgeable about OPM, I do want to revise this striking strength-AP thing, as we had been very lax about it before. I am neutral whether scaling striking strength to AP or not though, so I would appreciate help from experts to decide.

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    • Dark649 is wrong. We do use author statemengs to scale.

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    • I'm not sure how we treat WoG statements.

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    • No secret. Inconsistent or contradictory means "no.". Possible and implied in the story itself means "yes".

      Garou is option 2. He survived a Serious Series blow from Saitama, which a weakened Boros died from, putting them within the same range.

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    • I agree with Kep.

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    • I think a bit of context is necessary though; the Serious Headbutt that Garou took was focused on his arm and it completely destroyed his arm. Survivng this is not the same thing as Saitama giving him a lethal injury such as a punch to the head or torso...

      To give a comparison, lets say I have Planet level striking strength and I punch you in the finger; it would of course completely destroy your finger but as long as I'm not hitting the rest of you, can you really say you survived a Planet-level attack? It's more like a part of your body was hit by a Planet-levle attack and that part that was hit was completely destroyed.

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    • Yes, but Boros was getting completely torn apart by Saitama's Consecutive Normal Punches in a similar fashion, while Garou survived the shockwave of the Serious Headbutt coursing through his entire body, which implies greater durability than Boros.

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    • You wouldn't even need to mention the Serious Headbutt for him to have better durability than Boros. At one point during the fight Saitama uses a two-handed Consecutive Normal Punch combo against Garou and Garou (briefly) matches it with is own barrage of punches (without getting his arms destroyed) before he is overwhelmed.

      So he already handles the Consecutive Normal Punches better than Boros.

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    • Our standards on author statements are in the toilet, but I agree with what Kepekley said.

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    • I agree with Kep as well.

      Also Garou is far better suited for close quarters combat, as even stated by ONE, so of course he'll handle consecutive normal punches better.

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    • Wasn't Boros's striking strength supposed to be downgraded to continent class? Or am I just misremembering things?

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    • I'm neutral whatenever author statements should be used or not, but if there is the demand of author statements being used: Mob ??? scaling to Tatsumaki, 2-A Rick with Prep and 3-A Mundus arguments wil be brought again [the last one is something that was rejected many times], also Boros striking strength is also supposed to be downgraded to only as at least Multi-Continental Class.

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    • I agree with downgrading Boros's striking strength, but Garou still scales to whatever he gets.

      Mundus, Rick and Mob have nothing to do with this. You're taking specific examples and applying them to the entire site. Is Mundus all you can think of? We have discussed this literally tens of times before.

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    • Ok, i can agree with that.

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    • Kep seems to make sense.

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    • Kep makes sense. Though I think in technicality Boros surviving Saitama's ultimate move intact (mostly) might still have some merit. But yeah overall agreeing with Kep

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    • Boros did not survive, he died after uttering a few last words

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    • I didn't say survive and was left alive.

      I said survive intact, might, and overall agreeing with you.

      Then again diff case from Garou's arm being blown off by a serious headbutt compared to being turned to paste by an attack.

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    • whats is it gonna be High 6A

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    • 1. Accepting this statement is no different than accepting the official statement of Jiren being "the mightiest foe in DB history".

      2. The fact that Garou's arm only got destroyed from the same attack which, from a distance, demolished Boros's entire body and killed him definitely indicates Garou's durability being greater. As does him tanking Consecutive Normal Punch.

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    • We should take statistics from the actual characters we seen either on-screen, or in the pages. If an author states that this character is meant to be the strongest, we can still take that with a whole mountain of salt. 

      Throughout the whole webcomic, Garou is consistantly shown to be a much more real and significant threat than Boros. For example, Boros never actually looked like winning. In his final battle in City A, the S-Class heros shut his ship down with reletive ease. Whereas Garou has been able to actually take a significant number of S-Classes down (TankTop Master & Metal Bat for example) and even while weakened, he was able to stand toe to toe with Bang and Bomb. While he never looked like beating them, he was able to make it a fight. Even more impressive when you consider that I'm pretty sure Genos hit him with his incineration cannons, which have been shown to have a similar impact on foes as Saitama's most casual punches, and he stood up to it, also while injured. Whereas Boros was torn apart my Saitama's consecutive normal punches, and only held up so long against the Caped Baldy due to his magnificent regeneration.

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    • "the S-Class heros shut his ship and him down with reletive ease."

      None of the S-Classes did jack against Boros. They didn't even know he existed. The only one who even did any sort of damage to the ship (but still not nearly enough damage to actually take it down) was Tatsumaki.

      "Whereas Garou has been able to actually take a significant number of S-Classes down (TankTop Master & Metal Bat for example) and even while weakened, he was able to stand toe to toe with Bang and Bomb."

      Implying Boros couldn't have done this either.

      "Even more impressive when you consider that I'm pretty sure Genos hit him with his incineration cannons, which have been shown to have a similar impact on foes as Saitama's most casual punches, and he stood up to it, also while injured."

      Please tell me you're not saying Genos's incinceration canon is as strong as Saitama's casual punches. Or that tanking Genos's attacks somehow proves Garou is stronger than Boros.

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    • Boros is more durable than Garou in his pre awakened form.

      Boros was able to somehow tank Saitama's casual punch while the same casual punch destroyed Garou's lower part.
      Onepunch-man-one-4358465

      Casual Punch and Aftermath

      Boros>Garou in terms of durability and ST.

      Also,i don't understand why you consider Garou surviving Serious Headbutt as durability feat when Saitama literally destroyed the part of Garou that he aimed.That was a Headbutt vs Garou's punch,Saitama destroyed his right side,this is not a durability feat.



      Edit:Chapter 88.

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    • You know that's not Garou there, right? That's Zombieman.

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    • Ryukama wrote:
      "the S-Class heros shut his ship and him down with reletive ease."

      None of the S-Classes did jack against Boros. They didn't even know he existed. The only one who even did any sort of damage to the ship (but still not nearly enough damage to actually take it down) was Tatsumaki.

      Expanding on this further, it took four S-Class heroes to take on goddamn Melzalgald, and even then, they weren't exactly having the easiest time until they discovered his weakness.

      Saitama extremely casually wasted Groribas and Geryuganshoop, who were individually comparable in status and power to Melzalgald. Groribas was decapitated in a zero effort punch, and Saitama punctured Geryuganshoop by nonchalantly tossing a pebble at him.

      When he punched Boros, not only was Boros still able to stand, but it only broke his armor.

      I'm pretty sure unless we get WoG statements that say otherwise, Boros would have absolutely murderstomped every present S-Class hero had he actually even bothered to come down from his ship.

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    • I agree with downgrading Boros striking strength as mentioned earlier.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      I'm pretty sure unless we get WoG statements that say otherwise, Boros would have absolutely murderstomped every present S-Class hero had he actually even bothered to come down from his ship.

      Actually WoG statements so far have only been confirming what you're saying. Murata recently stated that Melzalgald, Groribas and Geryuganshoop even with prep have almost zero chance of winning against Orochi. Orochi is kinda obviously going to end up weaker than Monster Garou since MG is the main villian of this arc (and Murata isn't sure who's stronger between Orochi and Golden Sperm, the guy Monster Garou fodderized).

      So a guy who could take on 4 S-Classes + two of his relatively comparable comrades, have almost zero chance against a guy weaker, maybe even far weaker, than Boros even with preparation. So imagine how screwed those S-Classes would be facing Boros.

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    • Not being the main villain does not mean he'll necessarily be automatically weaker.

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    • Dzhindzholia wrote:
      Boros is more durable than Garou in his pre awakened form. Boros was able to somehow tank Saitama's casual punch while the same casual punch destroyed Garou's lower part.
      Onepunch-man-one-4358465

      Casual Punch and Aftermath

      Boros>Garou in terms of durability and ST.

      Also,i don't understand why you consider Garou surviving Serious Headbutt as durability feat when Saitama literally destroyed the part of Garou that he aimed.That was a Headbutt vs Garou's punch,Saitama destroyed his right side,this is not a durability feat.



      Edit:Chapter 88.

      Like Damage said that's Zombieman.

      Again, ignoring the fact that Serious Punch didn't even make direct contact with Boros, yet it destroyed his entire body and killed him. So Garou getting hit by Serious Headbutt, with not only having just his arm destroyed, but also surviving it does show he has greater durability.

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    • Cropfist wrote:
      Not being the main villain does not mean he'll necessarily be automatically weaker.

      "and Murata isn't sure who's stronger between Orochi and Golden Sperm, the guy Monster Garou fodderized"

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    • A source is needed on this.

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    • Pretty easy to find.

      Murata does say Orochi is more skilled though, which isn't surprising.

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    • @Ruy

      Saitama aimed for the hand and destroyed the hand.I don't see why it is so hard to understand,that is not a durability feat.

      Also,keep in mind that Serious Punch=/=Serious Headbutt.The only common with them is the word serious.Remember serious sidejumps?(or whatever it is called),Saitama does no damage to the street while he is doing that move,and Sonic was able to survive it.Maby we should give him Planet Level dura?The move is "Serious" after all.

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    • I still don't really get them having planetary durability, even when using the Anime/Manga guidebook. Wouldn't a better rating be like, Low 5B? Boros doesn't need to have 5B durability to survive the shockwaves of the CSRC, same with Garou.

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    • But anyways Manga/Webcomic Boros and Garou both have Multi-Continental durability and AP, although the AP rating probably isn't as high as the CSRC.

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    • 1. Saitama didn't aim for Boros's anything, yet still managed to destroy his body and kill him with the attack. Garou only had his arm destroyed, and survived it. Garou took less damage from the attack, so yes it is a durability feat.

      2. Ignoring that Serious Punch and Serious Headbutt are both serious strikes, whereas Serious Sidesteps isn't even an attack, just him moving side to side. You're really suggesting that his punch is orders of magnitude stronger than his headbutt?

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    • Point 1 may be a bit iffy if based purely on webcomic canon. Since in the webcomic the Serious Punch just canceled the CSRC . Boros did die but they were due to injuries sustained from the Consuctive Normal Punches (Boros never healed from those in the webcomic).

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    • It cancelled the CSRC, then the shockwave hit Boros which is what killed him. You can also faintly see him get hit here.

      Also if anything that would prove that Garou's dura is above Boros if you're trying to suggest Boros never even took a Serious Punch and died Consecutive Normal Punches instead.

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    • Yeah the manga he was 100% hit and killed with the shockwave. But in the webcomic he died to his old injuries since he never healed from Saitama's punch barrage and just went right to the CSRC. You can see it in the webcomic death scene. All the limbs Boros is missing were present before the serious punch.

      EDIT: And yeah, I agree that Monster Garou is more durable than Boros. Even including the possibility that Saitama was holding back more than normal against him.

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    • Sure thing.

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    • Why are we taking a Serious Headbutt as equal to a Serious Punch?

      I 100% Guarantee with no hesitation that my punches are several times stronger than my headbutts. 

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    • My original point was that scaling the two moves to each other is iffy. Since webcomic Saitama lacks the shockwave effects of his manga counterpart (at least for the majority of his attacks). But scaling the normal punches and punch combos should be okay, and Garou was handling those far better than Boros was.

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    • I and many other people would disagree. Assuming you're actually using full range of motion and hitting with the right spot, headbutts can be far more devastating. Especially since you're hitting with a much harder, heavier surface. There's a reason nearly every combat sport bans headbutts.

      Even then, a headbutt isn't tens of thousands of times stronger than a punch. Nor is it as weak as just stepping side to side. And someone who only got their arm destroyed by a headbutt from a guy is more durable than someone who had their entire body destroyed and got killed by a punch from that same person.

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    • ^This guy knows what's up. The bones in your fingers are thin and brittle and are only driven by your shoulder, sometimes your legs and waist if you have the windup time. A headbutt on the other hand is using the forehead, which is a ridge of solid bone, and is struck with the muscles in the neck and chest, which are insanely more powerful than you'd think. A headbutt, well done, can absolutely devestate an unprepared person far worse than a regular punch. 

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    • I would even serously argue that a headbutt is more powerful than a punch. 

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    • @Crimson Azoth Thank you!

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    • There's a whole buncha science on the matter. The simple fact is, it is the difference between hitting someone with the thin twigs on the ends of branches, or hitting them with the trunk of a tree. Headbutts are devestating, and like Ryu mentioned, "There's a reason nearly every combat sport bans headbutts". I play three different full-contact sports, rugby, boxing and MMA, and I am not allowed to headbutt in any of them.

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    • Akreious wrote:
      Why are we taking a Serious Headbutt as equal to a Serious Punch?

      I 100% Guarantee with no hesitation that my punches are several times stronger than my headbutts. 

      You just dug yourself into a hole mate. Go punch someone in the forehead. As hard as you can. Then come back and tell me that A) your hand is not broken and B) that the other person has anything worse than a mild ache. Go ahead, I dare you.

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    • Crimson Azoth wrote:
      Akreious wrote:
      Why are we taking a Serious Headbutt as equal to a Serious Punch?

      I 100% Guarantee with no hesitation that my punches are several times stronger than my headbutts. 

      You just dug yourself into a hole mate. Go punch someone in the forehead. As hard as you can. Then come back and tell me that A) your hand is not broken and B) that the other person has anything worse than a mild ache. Go ahead, I dare you.

      Jesus christ what did I ever do to you for you to be so confrontational?

      Also, I do martial Arts. Aikido to be precise, although I add punches into it because I tend to find trying to lock your enemies is harder than just knocking them the hell out. I've since quit but I still use the Martial Arts whenever I play-fight with my friends. and I have you know that the few times I did punch someone in the forehead (Accidentally), my hand was A) A little bruised but not at all broken like you're implying and B) They were completely knocked the fuck out.

      So you're either A) Completely exaggerating things to make your point or B) How about the fact that people with different body builds and different points of impacts can immensely affect how powerful strikes are, Headbutts or not. 

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    • Akreious wrote:
      Why are we taking a Serious Headbutt as equal to a Serious Punch?

      I 100% Guarantee with no hesitation that my punches are several times stronger than my headbutts. 

      I 100% guarentee that an energy blast is stronger than a punch. Does that mean we can't scale someone to Goku's punches just because they never tanked a Kamehameha? 

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    • My intention was not to be confrontational. I've never seen you before, I would have no reason to be. 

      It's simple biology. Your forehead is a solid ridge of bone. Your hand is a mess of thin, brittle bones called phlanges. Those bones in particular are some of the weakest and most brittle in the body, only slightly stronger than those in your ear and nose. 

      The only way that you'd KO someone by punching them in the forehead is by causing a rapid overflexor in the neck muscles, smacking the brain against the back of the skull. The forehead is fine. The brain is what is f**ked. While a headbutt is a last-ditch attack more often, it is a powerful last-ditch move. 

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    • Can we stop derailing? 

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    • Noahkaismith wrote:
      Can we stop derailing? 

      Gimme a sec 

      @Crimson Azoth

      I don't deny that's it's a strong tactic, but too strong of a headbutt would likely result in a double KO as both of your brains would be completely fucked.

      Anyways, proceed with on-topic. 

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    • Pretty sure we're still on task. But even if we aren't, this is a interesting topic. I will research this further, feel free to continue discussing with me outside the thread if you wish.

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    • Someone considered that Saitama's serious headbutt may be not so serious against Garou because he didn't want accidently kill him? In Boros case he didn't care about keeping his life

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    • If he didn't care about keeping his life, why did he fight for it while on the moon, when he was in danger of sufficating? While I agree that he would have started reletively casual after dispatching Groibas and Geryuganshoop, once Boros demonstated his full power, I believe Saitama did get more or less serious once Boros demonstated his full and naked power. As proved by his final move, which was called "Killer Move: Serious Series, Serious Punch." Dunno about you, but it sounds like he did get serous against Boros.

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    • Crimson Azoth wrote:
      If he didn't care about keeping his life, why did he fight for it while on the moon, when he was in danger of sufficating? While I agree that he would have started reletively casual after dispatching Groibas and Geryuganshoop, once Boros demonstated his full power, I believe Saitama did get more or less serious once Boros demonstated his full and naked power. As proved by his final move, which was called "Killer Move: Serious Series, Serious Punch." Dunno about you, but it sounds like he did get serous against Boros.

      He meant that Saitama didn't care about keeping Boros alive. However, Saitama was not full power against Boros. Boros and Saitama outright confirm it.

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    • Maraderchik wrote:
      Someone considered that Saitama's serious headbutt may be not so serious against Garou because he didn't want accidently kill him? In Boros case he didn't care about keeping his life

      Then why did he blow off his arm?

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    • So is Boros going to be downgraded?

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    • Anyway, I think Boros' striking strength is fine. Just because his Roaring Star attack or whatever is the attack with the feat, it doesn't mean his other attacks aren't at that level. 

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    • https://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1754918

      Dude it was decided AP doesn't automatically scales to striking strength unless proven so.

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    • Boros's striking strength and Garou's AP/Striking should still be High 6A since Garou can damage Boros and vice versa, it's just not on the same level as the 570 Petaton CSRC. The problem to my knowledge is that nothing really confirms 5B striking strength and durability to my knowledge.

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    • I know it doesn't. However, Boros did just as much damage to Saitama with his basic attacks as his Collapsing Star attack did. 

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    • So you mean zero? Because Boros did absolutely nothing to Saitama.

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    • Qawsedf234 wrote:
      Boros's striking strength and Garou's AP/Striking should still be High 6A since Garou can damage Boros and vice versa, it's just not on the same level as the 570 Petaton CSRC. The problem to my knowledge is that nothing really confirms 5B striking strength and durability to my knowledge.

      Boros was very confident he could survive the earth's destruction.

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    • Noahkaismith wrote:
      Qawsedf234 wrote:
      Boros's striking strength and Garou's AP/Striking should still be High 6A since Garou can damage Boros and vice versa, it's just not on the same level as the 570 Petaton CSRC. The problem to my knowledge is that nothing really confirms 5B striking strength and durability to my knowledge.
      Boros was very confident he could survive the earth's destruction.

      He was? I'm pretty sure he was basically throwing his life away when doing the CSRC

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    • But he doesn't need 5B durability to survive the Earth's destruction. He could have Multi-Continental Durability and survive a 5B explosion as long as it occured a kilometer away from him.

      Also I don't remember expressing anything about surviving the attack. It could've been a suicide move like with Vegeta's Galick Gun against Goku

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    • I think he might've said something about it. If he couldn't survive using the CSRC, then how would he know it could destroy a planet?

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    • > think he might've said something about it.

      He did not

      > If he couldn't survive using the CSRC, then how would he know it could destroy a planet?


      Fire the beam from outer space? Plus sometimes characters can just know how strong an attack is. Like how Goku knew that Vegeta wasn't bluffing when he said he was gonna destroy the Earth.

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    • By doing it from a distance?

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    • Akreious wrote:
      By doing it from a distance?

      Then why not do that against Saitama?

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    • Can't fly. Plus his ship was going down anyways. Seemed to me that Boros was trying to take Saitama out and wasn't caring about the possible side effects of his actions.

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    • Noahkaismith wrote:
      Akreious wrote:
      By doing it from a distance?
      Then why not do that against Saitama?

      That'd be anticlimactic as hell and awkward as hell. Saitama was worthy of being destroyed and killed, and it's not like he can make it back home with his completely wrecked ship and dead crew. Might as well give the best hurrah you can. 

      Boros is just like Saitama, and he finally found someone who can give him joy. Why wait? DO EVERYTHING NOW! 

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    • I guess. Although, Garou did repel Saitama's consecutive normal punches for a while and wasn't killed by his Serious Headbutt, so Boros would still have 5-B durability if we scaled Boros to Garou.

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    • But we don't scale the form that Garou used to survive the Serious Headbutt to Boros. Since by that point he'd abandoned his martial arts. Also Garou could still be Low-5B and survive a baseline 5B attack with just losing an arm I'm pretty sure.

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    • Crimson Azoth wrote:
      If he didn't care about keeping his life, why did he fight for it while on the moon, when he was in danger of sufficating? While I agree that he would have started reletively casual after dispatching Groibas and Geryuganshoop, once Boros demonstated his full power, I believe Saitama did get more or less serious once Boros demonstated his full and naked power. As proved by his final move, which was called "Killer Move: Serious Series, Serious Punch." Dunno about you, but it sounds like he did get serous against Boros.

      My point here is that Saitama considered Garou as human being and didn't try kill him, in Boros cases Saitama didn't care that much.  

      Second, Saitama in his fight against Boros was weaker than Saitama in fight against Garou.

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    • > Saitama in his fight against Boros was weaker than Saitama



      How? Saitama's never gotten any stronger, he said as much to King

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    • But then it links to the wiki page where Saitama dismisses it as the VR not being accurate

      Genos: Sensei is far more powerful today than he was yesterday…is that even possible?

      Saitama: It’s just unreliable simulated data right?

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    • Yea, we all know that Saitama known as smart guy. /s

      There any reason why Dr.Kuseno made some unreliable thing?

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    • Well the old Saitama hologram shattered the program after one usuage. The VGS may not have had the power to properly replicate Saitama's full power. But even if Garou Saitama > Boros Saitama power wise, that still may not mean much considering he didn't use his full power on either.

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    • Sure it didn't. I mean, there absolutely no reason compare Saitama Killer Move to Serious Headbutt. 

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    • We already know the VGS can't simulate fighting spirit, so what reason would we have to believe it can accurately portray limiter removed power? Especially when Saitama himself calls it unreliable and irrelevant to real life.

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    • Because it's can measure pure strength. Saitama didn't use any abstract power like fighting spirit or anger, but just punch his target with raw power. 

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    • Maraderchik wrote:
      Because it's can measure pure strength. Saitama didn't use any abstract power like fighting spirit or anger, but just punch his target with raw power. 

      Let's be honest; Saitama's limit breaking is sort of an abstract power. It's not really any different to trying to simulate fighting spirit.

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    • Fighting spirit cannot be more complex than power that literally defies God's will. Especially when fighting spirit is just gradually getting stronger over time, but not to the point of ever breaking one's limiter.

      Also again Saitama himself deems the machine inaccurate to his power, and Saitama showed that he can overwhelm the system with his held back strength.

      EDIT: Damage ninja'd me and put it way better lol

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    • Okay. Got it. But still, comparing one Saitama's move to another one is kinda meaningless.

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    • I see.

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    • I noticed some people saying that Boros's striking strength should be multi continent class. But his SS rating comes from damaging his ship which is only continent level in durability so shouldn't Boros be only continent class as well?

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    • Except, as we discussed above for like 40 minutes, a headbutt is a more go f**k yourself attack than a punch IRl. Why would it be any different here? Wouldn't comparing a serious punch to a serous headbutt be the same as comparing a punch to a headbutt IRL?

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    • Bringing up the headbutt feat is pointless IMO. It's better to compare a move they were both directly hit by; the Consecutive Normal Punches.

      Boros was blown to pieces (and regenerated), whereas Garou was simply sent flying.

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    • Feat wise Boros's Striking Strength is Continent Class for damaging his ship and he has Multi-Continent durability for not being splattered by the shockwaves of the serious punch.


      His Multi-Continent Striking Strength rating would come from damaging Garou and vice versa based on the statement by ONE. Them being outright 5B in striking strength and durability is just iffy to my understanding.

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    • @Damage And bringing up this whole debate is kinda pointless since regardless according to ONE they're both somewhat on par with each other. So they should have the same rating.

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    • Even if you compare two Saitama's serious series punch, it doesn't mean both of them would have same power. 

      And again, it's would be dire situation for Saitama if Garous just blown up by his attack. 

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    • Multy continent Striking Strength is baselesse.

      It should be continent class via scaling.

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    • But with scaling they have Multi-Continent class. Garou can damage Boros which means he has MC Striking Strength and Boros can damage Garou so he has MC Striking Strength. Feat wise he's only Continent class though, but we're including the ONE statement.

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    • So...what's the conclusion? Only Boros needs to be downgraded?

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    • If Boros is downgraded to just 6-A then Garou's AP/Striking Strength has to downgraded too either Unknown or At least 7-A/Low 6-B, since his current rating is derived from Boros scaling. Assuming we're disregarding the ONE statement. If not see my comment above.

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    • Wait, are we downgrading Boros's AP? But even if his striking strength isn't planet level, he himself is with his Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon. 

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    • he is only 5B with that speical attack but his regualar attacks are 6A

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    • AstralKing7 wrote:
      he is only 5B with that speical attack but his regualar attacks are 6A

      I disagree, but whatever.

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    • > Wait, are we downgrading Boros's AP?



      No. the proposed change would only apply to his striking strength. However if we disregard the Boros vs Garou statement like Spino suggested then Garou's AP will be knocked down to 7A or Low 6B

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    • Qawsedf234 wrote:
      > Wait, are we downgrading Boros's AP?


      No. the proposed change would only apply to his striking strength. However if we disregard the Boros vs Garou statement like Spino suggested then Garou's AP will be knocked down to 7A or Low 6B

      Boros is still planet level with his ultimate move though.

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    • Noahkaismith wrote:

      Boros is still planet level with his ultimate move though.

      Nobody is disputing that.

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    • Week the move is High 6A or 5B. But even in the 5B case Boros likely doesn't have 5B striking strength.

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    • In shorter terms Boros is only 5B with his last attack, ready to close this tbh

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    • Really this comes down to if we accept ONE's statement or not. If we do then Boros has Multi-Contental Striking strength since he can harm Garou. If we don't then Boros has Contental striking force and Garou will need his AP heavily reduced.

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    • first just get the current issue with 5B rating for all of his attacks out of the way since it hasnt been fixed yet

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    • If we're using the 5B statement for the CSRC then I'd guess that him and Garou would be Low-5B.

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    • I agree with Ryukama, and he's really tired of discussing the statistics here. Also, Author statements are a case by case scenario. Specific and/or moderated statements such as Saitama being Planet level or Cell being Solar System level are 100% legit. Statements about character A => Character B are also generally alright as long as there's nothing to disprove. It's just obvious hyperboles and understatements such as statements regarding omnipotence or describing superhumans as normal people aren't valid. Statements that lack specific method or timeframe for life wiping are also rather vague, but specifying that character can bust a planet with one attack is generally legit.

      Boros in his prime is legit comparable to Garou in his prime and both of them are overwhelmingly stronger than all the S-Class heroes including Tatsumaki when in their prime. But are in the same boat as each other against Semi-Serious Saitama. I'm neutral about striking strength being downgraded, but Boros legit briefly survived an attack that was technically above baseline Planet level. When Saitama deflected the Collapsing Roar Cannon, he rebounded it with significantly greater force than the initial attack, which was already possibly Planet level. This proves that at the very least Boros's durability scales to CRC when he briefly survived. If he didn't have this level of durability, it would have had his body completely incinerated on the spot.

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    • Garou's high6A comes from Boros,not the other way around.If Boros gets downgraded,Garou will be affected too.

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    • > but Boros legit briefly survived an attack that was technically above baseline Planet level. When Saitama deflected the Collapsing Roar Cannon, he rebounded it with significantly greater force than the initial attack, which was already possibly Planet level.

      But the power of Saitama's attack was reduced by the CSRC in either case since the serious punch shockwaves were calced at Multi-Contiental level. Even the one second high end.

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    • But on topoc if we're still accepting the statement then the only downgrade that's up for discussion is if Boros needs a slight downgrade for his 5B key. If not then just close the thread.

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    • The shockwaves were calc's at that yes, but that doesn't mean the actual punch or the cannon were that low. CSRC was rebounded at greater speed than the initial speed it was traveling at when Boros through it. Boros also still scales to the Moon jump, which shouldn't be weaker than Saitama's casual punches, which Boros withstood.

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    • > The shockwaves were calc's at that yes, but that doesn't mean the actual punch or the cannon were that low.

      While true, Boros wasn't hit with his full powered CSRC or the Serious Punch directly. The reduced shockwave that's used with the calc is what hit him

      > CSRC was rebounded at greater speed than the initial speed

      I don't think it was rebounded. The shockwave cancelled out the center and the remants of the CSRC were sent to the side.

      Lastly the moon jump was only calced to be Contental.

      Although like I mentioned above, there's no need to change anything but the 5B key since we're using the ONE statement.

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    • Boros still took most of the hit, and the remnants were actually bounced odd of Boros's body. Moon jump was recalc'd at Multi-Continent level a bit more recently.

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    • If we're keeping 5-B durability, wouldn't we keep 5-B striking strength as Boros and Garou are able to hurt each other?

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    • Wait when was the moon jump recalced? Also Boros still doesn't have any hard 5B durability feats.

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    • 5-B came from alternate translations; some translations say surface buster, some say planet buster. Both translations seem to be equally accepted making it difficult. Though One legit confirms 100% Serious Saitama as being a Planet buster at bare minimum. Unless you include the horribly translated Star busting assumption

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    • 5B comes from manga guidebook. In the webcomic and manga he specifies surface of the planet. Also to my knowledge ONE has never confirmed planetary Saitama in a interview but Murata has.



      Also if the moon jump recalc was the one Kep did then it wasn't accepted.

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    • Is one the writer or Murata

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    • @Qawsed You've told me before that webcomic never says surface but instead says "wipe you off the surface".

      @Astral ONE made the Boros vs Garou statement. Murata made the 5-B Saitama statement. However considering Murata's extremely heavy involvement in the series and the fact that he won't answer questions he doesn't know without consulting ONE, he's considered a form of WoG as well.

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    • Moon jump is 6-A, my recalc didn't get accepted.

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    • ONE is the main writer, has veto power, and doesn't tell Murata aspects of the story/keeps him in the dark at times but he brainstorms with Murata and and lets him include some stuff.

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    • @Ryukama I've said that the fan translation says "Wipe you off the surface", but in Japanese he says the exact same line as in the manga. That being "I'll fire all of my energy and blow away you and the surface of this planet".

      EDIT: A previous conversation between us about the CSRC translation

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    • ONE is of course above Murata but Murata definitely should be considered as a greatly reliable source. Especially since he often won't answer stuff unless he's consulted ONE about it.

      Also I see.

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    • Anyways this is concluded. Boros and Garou are High 6A since they can damage each other. Only possible downgrade I see worth discussing is possibly lowering Boros' 5B striking strength to Low 5B.

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    • why would it even be considered low 5B tho lol, it skipped even 5C.

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    • Unless I'm misunderstanding the system it would be because Boros' strikes are weaker than his baseline 5B attack. Which would be Low 5B.

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    • we dont know how much weaker they would be tho, we just cant say they are low 5B because his Star canon is 5B, with that logic he techincally wouldnt have needed his strongest attack to wipe out all life on earth when hs normal "Low 5B" attacks can.

      Maybe im confused but im pretty sure he will need more than just being weaker than his his baseline 5B canono to be considered low 5B.

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    • Oh okay.

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    • Anyways this is concluded. Boros and Garou are High 6A since they can damage each other.

      You mean 6-A,since there is no high6-A feat for them.

      I have a feeling that this thread will never end,there is no one to organise it.

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    • Nah I mean High 6A since we aren't dismissing the ONE statement. While you are right that they themselves don't have a High 6A striking feat (Boros' best raw feat is just 6A and Garou is Low 6B), they are considered a well matched fight by ONE


      ONE: Garou or Boros, who would win? Before, Boros was definitely the stronger one, but Garou is now a near-perfect monster. I don't really know. A good match . . . I do believe Garou is stronger in close combat where things like punches and kicks can generally be avoided.


      > Even if you look at the portrait description, Boros will fight with overwhelming power, superior playback ability, energy attacks from a distance, while Garou will fight with excellent fighting ability (though I showed off and knocked down Saitama 's attack many times). I can not certainly say which is stronger.



      Since they both have High 6A durability on their own without circular scaling and can harm each other, they both have High 6A striking strength. But it's likely on a lower scale compared to the CSRC.

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    • Garou's stats are scaled from Boros.If Boros gets downgraded to 6-A than Garou too,not the other way around.

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    • Garou's profile. His AP and Striking Strength comes from Boros scaling, but his durability has nothing to do with Boros. Since Boros and Garou have High 6A durability and can harm each other they must have High 6A striking strength.

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    • His durability comes from Boros too.

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    • Durability: Mountain Level (Took hits from a serious Bang while weakened) | At least Mountain level (Survived fighting against Overgrown Rover and Orochi. More durable than before. Type 2 immortality makes him difficult to kill | At least Multi-Continent level, possibly Planet level (Took several casual punches and a few Serious Series moves from Saitama, continuing to fight and attempt to best him), regeneration and reactive evolution makes him difficult to kill


      His durability has nothing to do with Boros, only with Saitama. Same with how Boros's durability has nothing to do with Garou's. 

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    • Saitama's casual punches are 6-A,not high6-A.

      I'll repeat again,his hgih6-A and 5-B stats are scaled from Boros,Garou himself doesn't have feats on that level.

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    • > Saitama's casual punches are 6-A,not high6-A.



      But not only did Garou take far more punches from Saitama and remained in better condition than Boros: 1 2 3 4 5

      He took two Consecutive Normal Punch combos and wasn't horribly gibbed like Boros

      And wasn't misted by the Serious Headbutt . Even if you find cross-scaling serious moves iffy, he fared so much better against Saitama's strikes than Boros did that it should be clear that he's more durable or at least comparable.



      > his hgih6-A and 5-B stats are scaled from Boros



      They are because of the ONE statement. But the reasoning for the High 6A/5B rating is that both can harm each other with their strikes.

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    • To survive 6-A attack you only need 6-A durability,not high6-A.

      And don't bring headbutt here,that was not a durability feat.

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    • What's the durability and/or consecutive/two hand punches being multi continent level thing coming from?

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    • > What's the multi continent level thing coming from?

      Saitama's serious punch



      > To survive 6-A attack you only need 6-A durability,not high6-A.

      So what's your proposal? That we just don't scale Boros and Garou to each other?

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    • Ok. 

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    • > What's the multi continent level thing coming from?

      Saitama's serious punch

      The calc is pointlesse,Saitama's serious punch is 5-B.

      So what's your proposal? That we just don't scale Boros and Garou to each other?

      Did you read my inputs?

      Saitama's casual punch is 6-A.

      Boros's striking strength and durability are also 6-A and this scales to Garou.

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    • > The calc is pointlesse,Saitama's serious punch is 5-B.

      Why would it be? Saitama never went serious against Boros and the energy of the punch would be reduced by the CSRC in the first place.



      > Boros's striking strength and durability are also 6-A and this scales to Garou.

      So what, Boros goes from "High 6-A, possibly 5-B " to " 6-A. High 6-A, possibly 5-B with the CSRC"?

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    • how is he high 6A lol, he has no feat of that, cant say because he will be a match for Garou be Garou scales from him Boros.  

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    • @Qawsedf234 

      Why do you even brought this calc?No one scales from Saitama's serious punch anyway.

      No,he goes from high 6-A,5-B with CSRC to 6-A,5-B with CSRC.

      But I am not sure about Garou's 5-B,I don't agree with scaling Garou from Star Cannon.

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    • I dont think they took that into consideration at all tbh.

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    • Boros only uses that on stronger people but if Garou is a good match for him he may not need it and can just finish it with something like a kick to the Moon where he would die from lack of oxygen.  

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    • > Why do you even brought this calc?

      Because Boros survived the attack long enough to give a speech? If his durability was the same as the moon kick that means over 40% of his body survived a directed attack that's 71.156x greater than his durability.

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    • woah first of all if you think the serious punch isnt 5B maybe just make a CRT since you say that the energy of it gets reduced by the CSRC

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    • > woah first of all if you think the serious punch isnt 5B


      I mean, I don't think that the one used against Boros was 5B just by virtue that Saitama was holding back on Boros and that Boros would've been oblitered by an attack at least 116,160.96 times stronger than his ultimate move. Saitama can throw a planet busting Serious Punch, he just didn't do so against Boros.

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    • Because Boros survived the attack long enough to give a speech?

      Not a durability feat.PIS,cause he was teared apart by weaker attacks.

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    • Or that Saitama can just punch harder than his moon kick. He'd only need to increase his strength by 3.66x to get to Multi-Contental class.



      > Not a durability feat.

      Surviving something is a durability feat. Just a low/terrible one.

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    • >Surviving something is a durability feat. Just a low/terrible one.

      What about low durability but regeneration higher than Low-High?

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    • In Boros's case it would just be duability since he could no longer regenerate. But for a broder scope you have to judge things on a case by case basis.

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    • So...what's the conclusion?

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    • No change according to Ryu.

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    • So no one's gonna be downgraded?

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    • Depends on if people agree with Dzhindzholia enough to make a downgrade. If they do Garou will be downgraded from High 6A (and I think 5B) to normal 6A in striking, AP, and durability. For Boros he gets a separate CSRC tier and his durability/striking strength is downgraded to 6A.

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    • Borors should still be gettin downgraded we just need to fix his regular ap which effects Garou. I aslo agree with Dzhind of course, they dont need any High 6A rating because they dont have any calc for that and just fighting each other wont give them high 6A stats either

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    • So nerf Garou's stats to 6A, and nerf Boros's Striking Strength/Durability to 6A. Then make his AP key have a 6A and a High 6A/5B rating? Well I'm okay with that I guess.

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    • yeah 6A for his normal attacks and 5B for his CRSC

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    • So if Ryukama disagrees with what was being suggested, should we close this thread?

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    • We could get input from other Knowledgeable members like Golden Void or Celestial Pegasus. But if Ryukama has the finally say on the matter then yeah, close the thread since he's already voiced his disagreement.

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    • Nah I'm fine with whatever the majority agrees with. I don't want to instantly shut something down based on my opinion alone.

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    • Okay, feel free to ask other staff members to give input as well then.

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    • I still personally agree with Ryu with the statistics remaining unchanged.

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    • Ryu FRA

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    • According to that,we should scale every characters strongest move to their casual Striking Strength,since everyone agrees.

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    • Can you summarise what you specifically intend to do?

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    • It is simple,not to scale his striking strength from star cannon.

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    • And do Ryukama and the other staff members agree about this.

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    • Thanos is 5-A and high 6-B in ST,Human torch is low6-B and 5-B with Supernova,Kaguya is 5-B and 5-A with ETSB etc.All of them have special powerful techniques that don't scale to their ST for reasons,why is Boros a special one?

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    • Isn't this due to that ONE said that Boros and Garou were evenly matched? If Boros has a trumph card able to kill Garou in a single strike, that is not particularly the case.

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    • Being evenly matched doesn't mean that Garou's max output or durability has to rival Boros' Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon. The majority of Boros' fighting is done without that technique.

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    • Yeah. Their High 6A AP would be like >80 Petatons  while the CSRC is at least 570 Petatons.

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    • @Antvasima 

      At the same time he added that Boros has advantage in long ranged attacks and that Garou has chances only via his greater skills not sheer power.And this is not fare to scale Boros's most powerful attack to Garou's ST,then rescale Boros's ST from Garou cause they can harm each other.

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    • Qawsedf234 wrote: Yeah. Their High 6A AP would be like >80 Petatons  while the CSRC is at least 570 Petatons.

      Where does that value come from?

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    • Well, I do not have a strong opinion about this, but if the other the staff members here disagree, I do not think that we can apply this change.

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    • We basically got to scale Boros ST to Garou's dura rating because of ONE's statement

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    • > Where does that value come from?



      From previous converstations about this, the shockwaves of Saitama's serious punch since Boros's remained intact afterwards. Well mostly.

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    • @Antvasima

      Francly,I don't understand why the staff disagrees with it,non of them really debated or expressed their opinions here,everyone automatically agreed with Ruy.

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    • @Qawsedf234 

      This is outlier,PIS and not a durability feat,explained numerous times.

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    • Is it either? Boros being gibbed by Saitama isn't enough to warrent a downgrade in my view considering even the moon jump was 0.000002% of his minamal power output.

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    • Qawsedf234 wrote: > Where does that value come from?



      From previous converstations about this, the shockwaves of Saitama's serious punch since Boros's remained intact afterwards. Well mostly.

      But he died after that attack, how can it scale to his durability?

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    • Because he was destroyed with lesse more powerful attacks,and now you are trying to say that he can tank redirected Star Cannon and Serious Punch.No offence but arguing with you is pointlesse,we talked about that thing numerous times no one agrees that it is a durability feat.

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    • > But he died after that attack, how can it scale to his durability?

      The reason I've heard is that a decent amount of his body remained intact despite have no energy. If it isn't enough to warrent the High 6A rating then both him and Garou are 6A via scaling to his ship/Saitama's moon jump.

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    • Anyways I guess I'm convienced enough to turn my vote in favor of a downgrade to 6A Striking Strength and Durability for Boros with a seperate CSRC key and 6A AP, Striking Strength, and Durability for Garou.

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    • yeah i dont see the reason it should stay the same at all.  A statement is being taken out of context as well.  Why should his ap from his strongest attack scale to his normal attacks??  That doesnt make sense at all when we have similar characters who are in the same boat but rated weaker in normal attacks compared to their strongest.  Boros shouldnt be a speical case

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    • Well, I am neutral about this, as I think that I mentioned previously.

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    • I remember the statement only mentioning how Boros vs Garou would be an interesting fight, and not clarifying whether Garou would actually be able to match Boros's absolute trump card or not.

      If we want to take the safe approach then Garou should be 6-A. So as much as this hurts me personally, I support the downgrade.

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    • I have a question. How did you scale Boros AP when he didn't use CSRC, but use this energy to fight? Or where did this energy go? Without CSRC Boros is 6A but all this energy that Boros use on this attack will not magically disappear and he pretty much can use it to boost himself like he did it against Saitama (twice, first time when his armor was broken and second when he used Meteoric Burst).

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    • Garou did survive a serious headbutt; while it may not be 100%, it's still the same league as the Serious Punch that repelled CSRC. So that's a justification for Garou having Planet level durability. Boros also was able to remain conscious and talk before he died from a blast that was technically stronger than the original attack. So Boros at the very least should have a likely Planet level. Garou is technically even more durable, so that's another reason to keep his durability rating.

      I'm fine with Boros having a striking strength downgrade, but his durability should stay the same IMO. Garou should also not be downgraded at all.

      Also, I know this is off topic, but I noticed so many people keep changing the thread's topics in which some of them have nothing to do with the thread. Like, here, I see character names which none of them are from OPM. Someone did something similar to the Rule Violations report thread.

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    • The Serious Headbutt completely destroyed his arm. That's not a great durability feat. If Saitama's head hit Garou's head or torso then he'd be completely dead.

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    • i agree if his arm got destroyed it shouldnt scale to his durability

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    • It would have destroyed his entire body if his durability was that much weaker though.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      It would have destroyed his entire body if his durability was that much weaker though.

      How so? If a characters take a hit on their extremities (say if they got their finger punched for example), would you expect the rest of them to just explode if the energy delived to their finger was higher than their overall durability? Or would just the finger be destroyed?

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    • Example Naruto and Sasuke.  They both had their arms destroyed from rasengan and chidori but we dont scale their durability to that at all and their attacks were low on chakra

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    • With enough energy the body can be ripped apart even if a small portion is hit. People have lost arms from being struck in the hand and have had torsos destroyed from having their arm destroyed.

      Energy is distributed across the body, not just the single area. While this energy falls off, a sufficiently powerful blow to even a small body part could probably destroy the body.

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    • Garou's body was still behind his arm, and his vitals weren't too far away from the initial attack, which generally creates shockwave. Also, Saitama hit Garou with multiple Serious series attacks, not just the serious headbutt.

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    • No, Garo was hit with only a single Serious Attack.

      The only other Serious move used during the fight was the tableflip.

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    • do most writers even take that into account tho??  His arm was still destroyed, that shows how strong the serious headbutt is compared to Garou.  The fact that his body wasnt destroyed could just be an example of the authors not taking into account how much energy spreads through the body.

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    • Yusuke has some knowledge when it comes to power scaling, and iirc, he did say Garou is durable enough to survive the CSRC.

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    • did he really say that???

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    • No, he never remotely did.

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    • then my point stands.  Garou shouldnt scale to any 5B feat of saitamas when its been stated that he is a match for Boros and is only better then him in the fighting department

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    • We also do not scale from stomp matches.

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    • Boros survived his collapsing Roar Cannon repelled against him with even greater force than the initial attack, that was brought up and agreed upon multiple times. Even the shockwaves were High 6-A at bare minimum. Shockwaves should be much lower than the initial attack. And again, Boros briefly survived the attack. Garou was also both stated and demonstrated to be even more durable than Boros. Garou was never torn to pieces from casual punches, in fact, the consecutive normal punches pretty much just tickled Garou.

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    • No he did not. That's literally impossible.

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    • The Collapsing Star Roading Cannon was not repelled towards him, it was split in two and went to either side of Saitama.

      Saying that the normal punches only tickled Garou is highly misrepresenting it.

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    • @DarkDragonMedeus 

      Serious Headbutt destroyed Garou's hand,not a durability feat.

      Boros surviving Star Cannon and Serious Punch is also not a durability feat,and Boros was teared apart by vastly weaker attacks.

      No way they are planet level in durability and ST,nothing suggests.

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    • ^this

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    • @All staff members

      So what should we do here? This is going around in circles.

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    • Maraderchik wrote:
      I have a question. How did you scale Boros AP when he didn't use CSRC, but use this energy to fight? Or where did this energy go? Without CSRC Boros is 6A but all this energy that Boros use on this attack will not magically disappear and he pretty much can use it to boost himself like he did it against Saitama (twice, first time when his armor was broken and second when he used Meteoric Burst).

      Anyone? I'm just very curious how it's should be resolved.

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    • Well, he doesn't use it up all at once, unlike the canon. So he might only use tiny tiny tiny portions for his average attacks, speed, and healing.

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    • I'm not certain anymore either, I still agree with Ryukama's original statement and prefer no changes, but I'm okay with ss and durability downgrades to just High 6-A if that's what the staff majority think.

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    • Well, I am also neutral here. Both sides seem to have valid points.

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    • @DarkDragon Isn't the proposed downgrade to 6-A and not high 6-A?

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    • Same thought it was 6A since since it seems high 6A is based of nothing

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    • I meant, wasn't the cloud dispersions High 6-A? Boros' durability shouldn't be lower than that.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I meant, wasn't the cloud dispersions High 6-A? Boros' durability shouldn't be lower than that.

      Why shouldn't it be? He didn't even survive that attack.

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    • He still took the main attack as opposed to the shock wave. And he was still able to breath and talk before he died; not like he was completely vaporized. Again, this circle loop discussion is getting tiring as Ant said and Ryu already said multiple times.

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    • Okay, if everyone is fine with it, then i won't oppose the scaling. I am however still skeptical about scaling someone to an attack that they died from.

      >He still took the main attack as opposed to the shock wave

      Don't think that's completely true, but never mind. It probably wouldn't make much of a different anyway.

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    • Yes, it is very tiring. In lack of better options, it may be best if we close this thread and let the profiles remain as they are, as Ryukama suggested.

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    • Still, someone should make a blog or something explaining the scaling since this will likely come up later.

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    • Umm I’m pretty sure your not supposed to keep profiles like that. We all know his strongest attack doesn’t scale to his normal attacks. This will lead to problems with other characters who suffer from this but Borors is the only one with scaling like this just saying tbf 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ We all know this is not right

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    • So what statistics would specifically need to be changed to what, and in which OPM profiles?

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    • DarkDragon said change Boros and Garou to High 6A for a feat from Boros

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    • Okay. I personally do not mind, but it depends on what other staff members think.

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    • I do understand that Andy's skeptical about scaling a character to something they died from, but it's still their own attack. And it's still repelled by an even stronger attack, and it wasn't an instant death either. If anything, the 5-B, their striking strength and durability could have an "at most" before their Planet level ratings. But I do want to hear the others thoughts on that option.

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    • If it was actually his own attack that did most of the damage and not Saitamas punch then I can understand an atleadt

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    • "At most" might be an acceptable compromise solution.

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    • bump

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    • Can somebody politely ask Ryukama to comment here regarding if he finds Medeus' compromise solution acceptable?

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    • I will.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • What's the proposed stat changes now?

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    • Is that Boros will receive an "At most" before his Planet level ratings for striking strength and durability as well as Garou having that for all of his statistics and tier.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I do understand that Andy's skeptical about scaling a character to something they died from, but it's still their own attack. And it's still repelled by an even stronger attack, and it wasn't an instant death either. If anything, the 5-B, their striking strength and durability could have an "at most" before their Planet level ratings. But I do want to hear the others thoughts on that option.

      This.

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    • DDM's idea seems fine. It's whatever everyone else decides on.

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    • Is anyone willing to apply the changes?

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    • I'd be willing to do it, but someone needs to unlock the Boros profile.

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    • You can politely ask an admin/bureaucrat or Content Mod to unlock it.

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    • @Antvasima mind unlocking the Boros profile so I can apply the "At most" changes to his Striking Strength and Durability

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    • DDM's suggestion changes absolutely nothing,they are already Planet Level at most.

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    • I will unlock the profile.

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    • Well I applied the changes to Garou, but the Boros page was locked. Probably easier to have someone like Ryukama make the changes there.

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    • I can apply the changes.

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    • and done.

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    • Close this?

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