There seemed to be some argument about whether Star Wars striking strength scales to AP here.
While I'm not very knowledgeable about Star Wars, I do want to revise this striking strength-AP thing, as we had been very lax about it before. I am neutral whether scaling striking strength to AP or not though, so I would appreciate help from experts to decide.
There are bound to be some contradictions here or another, based on their feats. Even being enhanced with the Force, you have...
Blaster Bolts: Weapons clearly designed to produce Wall level to Small Building level AP, as well as the smaller ones being designed to be used against infantry and smaller targets (these things aren’t doing major damage to larger vehicles or tanks). Any Force user actively needs to predict, and deflect these incoming bolts, whether by lightsaber, or by Tutaminis (which is a technique mainly used to absorb energy, or redirect it); having a blaster bolt land directly on a Jedi/Sith either injures them, or kills them outright. The Jedi massacre when a bunch of Clone Troopers turns on the Jedi Order and annihilates them with blaster fire is an example.
‘’’General Grievous, Cad Bane, and Boba/Jango Fett:’’’ All of these guys are non-Force users, with Grievous a physically enhanced cyborg, Cad Bane/Jango Fett a regular bounty hunter that uses gadgets and standard weaponery. The former was known as a devastating Jedi hunter that has killed multiple Jedi, while Cad Bane went up against Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos during combat, and didn’t end up getting immediately overwhelmed physically (even had the advantage at times). Boba Fett/Jango Fett were also known to cause major trouble during his appearances against the Jedi as well, with the former being able to kill Komari Vosa (a rogue Jedi turned to the dark side) without the use of Force-enhanced abilities.
"Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, as many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."
~ HK-47 on effective Jedi-Killing weapons
Flamethrowers cannot be (nor has portrayed to be) blocked by lightsabers; it requires a Jedi/Sith to directly put up a Force barrier in order to negate it, which requires an active use of the Force itself to do so; it’s not a passive one, meaning Flamethrowers used by Boba Fett (possibly Jango Fett as well) could seriously harm them.
The Force, despite the misconception, is not an internal source of energy like Ki/Aura/regular strength portrayed in series such as Dragonball/RWBY/random shounen series. It is an external source of “energy” present in the Star Wars universe that need to be tapped into, which is why the Jedi need to actively concentrate at that moment to maximize its use of it. Which explains why there have been portrays of Jedi/Sith performing some major scale feats with it while getting injured/killed by attacks that are much weaker than the attacks said Force-users themselves can dish out.
When it comes to the Multi-Continent level AP that the majority of the Force-users have, what were these feats, and what was the context behind those feats?
Basically, you got Force users shown to perform higher level feats throughout the series, and yet were shown, or said to struggle or get killed/injured by opponents that are drastically weaker than the higher end of the feats that Force users have shown (non Force users, bounty hunters). This was shown/said to happen more than a couple times, which means that it can’t be just chalked up to PIS, I think.
Oh, and those large-scale battleships? The Jedi aren’t capable of doing anything to those either, other than Luke slightly shaking one of them at one point (and did Luke actively concentrate beforehand when performing the feat, or was it done without warning?). But then shaking =\= significantly damaging said ship, and those Imperial Class Star Destroyers can be destroyed by colliding with one other anyways. What’s the KE of those Star Destroyer collisions anyways?
Soldier Blue wrote:
Lina Shields does have good points here. Especially when talking about the Force as not being like typical Ki in shounen battle manga/anime.
If the Force was an internal source of energy that could be used, I would be okay with the ratings rn, but it was explicitly said to be an energy field that surrounded the entire universe + living beings.
The Force itself is omnipotent and omnipresent, covering the entire Star Wars galaxy and possibly the entire universe. It is an external energy field that binds the galaxy together, able to be drawn into the body and spirit of a Force user and the amount drawn in depends on the user's midichlorian count, knowledge, skills etc. So yeah a Force user can draw all of his/her power into striking strength if they desire to.
We also forget to mention that its likely a sentient entity (basically a deity), as we can see it trying to defy Plagueis' efforts and the creation of Anakin
Also high-end Force Users have their whole bodies consumed and wrapped by Force at all times. Sidious and Vitiate are consistently described as being made of the Dark Side, and the Avatars of the Dark Side.
Same thing for Luke, but for the Light Side:
"Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye."
And indeed, when Luke was fighting Abeloth and had a fist-sized hole blasted through his chest by her, he didn't bleed, but rather Light Side energy poured out of his body:
"Luke's chest was a searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole, and his Force essence was bleeding out from a dozen smaller wounds, leaving a crescent of twinkling light spread across the dark water. He sprang anyway."
Where is the evidence that these hand-held blasters are Town level? I don't see it?
In your first scan, he put up a force barrier to protect himself from blaster fire that is wall to small building level (ChaosTheory calc'd this at one point). Does not mean that he can actually tank it without said barrier however (and this is Luke Skywalker we are talking about here, not some council member force user)
In your second scan, he didn't put up a force barrier to protect himself from the incoming blaster, but he actually deflected the blaster fire back at the AT-AT, which crippled it. Luke took it down after that. But the key point here is that the deflected blaster fire from the AT-AT was the main reason that the AT-AT was taken down; it's not like Luke was shown to get close to those things and slice them up to pieces casually or anything.
This is Luke Skywalker by the way, when has a random council-member Jedi/Sith been shown to do something like this?
Is there an exact yield to those AT-AT blaster fire, via a calc? If so, please link the calc here.
As for the screenshot that Matt posted, he actively "rooted himself in the heart of the force" to achieve that immovable state, which means that he was actively concentrating in that situation in order to maximize his force capabilities as much as possible.
Since the Force itself is an external source of energy (as the Force is basically omnipresent in that universe, and not something that could be generated internally), said energy needs to be actively drawn from the Force itself in order to perform these high-level feats.
Gargoyle One wrote:
Theoretically you could if you manage to surprise your opponent, like using a blitz level speed amp.
Which makes sense, which bring up the point that their durability isn't a passive one. Said force needs to be actively drawn in from the Force itself to the user in order to maximize his/her AP/durability.
Also, probably not the best idea to bring Luke up in this thread considering he > every other Jedi/Sith. Thus, he would have more feats of AP/durability in comparison to the rest.
But yea, the scene where one of the Republic soldiers shoots a rocket at Darth Malgus, with Darth Malgus taking visible damage from it clearly doesn't matter here when it comes to durability, am I right?
No, they can passively amp themselves. See the scene where Luke walked on Lava without having to even think. Or Mace Windu using Vapaad and Force Valor against Sidious to amp himself. This thing about neding to "Drawn in frrom the Force itself" is pure headcanon.
Their power isn't external. They have their own Force that they can access at any point.
Matthew Schroeder wrote:
In The Old Republic, you can also fight Gethul, an Eldritch God that can consume and destroy planets with its sheer power. It's not a Force User. You fight him with a Lightsaber and win.
You also fight Tyth who had enough power to destroy a Dyson Sphere while unstable. He's a robot. You fight him with a Lightsaber and kill him.
Are these videos of these feats being performed? What was the context behind the Gethul's and Tyth's feats?
Eventually they reached Adelade herself and after defeating her in combat, detonated the D-5X probe droid loaded with explosives inside Gethul's maw, killing the abomination and stopping its threat.
Apparently, this Gethul thing being taken out by lightsaber is done in gameplay, which could be considered gameplay mechanics at best. Gethul was actually stopped by a bunch of explosives being carried by a probe droid or something. What was the yield of those explosives again?
As for Tyth, does it state, or show that he actually destroys a Dyson Sphere while being unstable?
In relation to this, how was this Dyson Sphere destroyed? Did he completely obliterate the thing in one shot, or was is done in a specific manner (such as attacking the critical parts of said Dyson sphere or something)?
Another example is Darth Sidious' Lightsaber being a Dark Side Nexus:
This red-bladed lightsaber belonged to one of the galaxy's most fearsome dictators. Constructed in the style of all Sith lightsabers, Emperor Palpatine's lightsaber practically drips with the dark side of the Force.
--Legacy era campaign guide
Emperor Palpatine's lightsaber: Medium lightsaber steeped in the dark side of the Force.
Matthew Schroeder wrote:
Luke can also straight up punch Abeloth and break her ribs. Abeloth is made out of the Force and is an embodiment of the Imbalance of the Force in the Universe:
"He slammed a Force-enhanced knuckle strike into her side and heard three ribs snap ... and remained entangled."
And considering that Abeloth in that scene didn't put up a Force barrier, or amp herself defensively with the Force before taking Luke's Force-enhanced blow? Abeloth isn't completely made out of the force; she was actually a regular woman who drank from the Well of Power and bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. She ended up becoming extremely powerful in the Force after that.
But it only shows that Abeloth is just an extremely powerful Force user, not the entirety of the Force itself. Thus, the same rule for Force-users amping themselves offensively/defensively applies to her as well.
Also, self-destructing is a completely different topic altogether, where it is independent of that character's physical strength/durability (unless someone tanks that explosion close-range or stops the explosion or something). Because we set different AP rating for attacks that involve self-destruction, as that character isn't guaranteed to generate that much energy in a regular combat situation or trade blows with characters that can either stop the explosion/survive the explosion at close range.
Analogy: A truck that rams an object at its max speed doesn't generate as much energy as that same truck that is self-destructing. The mechanics of how much energy that machine is capable of generating, as well as how that energy is applied when it comes to its action, is completely different.
"Abeloth isn't completely made out of the force; she was actually a regular woman who drank from the Well of Power and bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. She ended up becoming extremely powerful in the Force after that."
Wrong. She became an entity of the Force by doing that.
Tyth was heavily drained of energy but could still generate that much by self-destructing. He considers your energy greater than his in that state.
The Everlasting wrote:
Wrong. She became an entity of the Force by doing that.
Post the exact quute from the novel, or the panel where it states that Abeloth literally was made out of the Force itself.
Anakin is probably the only character that would "literally be made out of the force" considering that he was conceived by midi-chlorians without a father involved.
Plagueis decided to take his powers further and reached out to the midi-chlorians across the galaxy in order to gain dominance over them, but the Force resisted his efforts and refused. In response, the midi-chlorians acted of their own accord and conceived a child within the Human slave Shmi Skywalker.
All Force Users are capable of producing like this Invisible Force Aura Barrier that covers their bodies. And the Durability of their force amplification can become equal to their attack potency. At the same time, they're equally capable of using the Force to perform Precision strikes with their Lightsabers that are just as strong their Full out Attack Potency. In short, I agree with Matt and Everlasting.
When it comes to Disney Canon Star Wars, it doesn't look like their striking strength may be as good as their Force Powers looking at the profiles, but ESU for sure is High 6-A, though I heard Ever said they're going to be 5-B, and 4-B to 4-A for the top/god tiers on all statistics. And I agree, we shouldn't mix Disney with ESU, they are different continuities.
“At the same time, they're equally capable of using the Force to perform Precision strikes with their Lightsabers that are just as strong their Full out Attack Potency”
And how do you know this, exactly? Considering that their precision lightsaber strikes aren’t even capable of severely denting/destroying larger vehicles, or can deflect/block an attack that is Multi-Continental to Solar System level.
But then, if their durability really was passively Multi-Continent to Solar System level with the force, you still haven’t explained why some of these force users struggle with bounty hunters like Cad Bane/Boba/Jango, as well as not being able to penetrate an active force wall set up by another Force user?
Show me an instance where an active Force barrier set up was penetrated by a lightsaber strike (instead of a force-based ability/technique) please.
Oh, and it doesn’t help that these force users aren’t hack and slashing anything larger than a door, or a droid either, which indicates their lack of physical strength in combat.
For their esoteric force capabilities? That is a completely different matter.
Jedi and Sith hold back all the time when fighting Bounty Hunters; we don't downgrade Superman to Batman's level for the very same reason. Darth Sidious still has being in the center of the Death star when it exploded and surviving as a legit durability feat. Jedi's struggling with Bounty Hunters or Vehicles is PIS if anything; kinda like Superman getting owned by Omega Beams that were easily deflected by an ordinary brick. Or that it took Doomsday like 5 or 6 punches just to slightly dent some concrete with each of those punches making Supers bleed, or both Superman and Doomsday dying from an explosion that at best destroyed part of a city.
They may hold back all the time when fighting bounty hunters, but there doesn't seem to be strong evidence that these guys are holding back that much when fighting them. These bounty hunters even give trouble to said Jedi/Sith.
For Darth Sidious surviving the Death Star's explosion, is there an exact quote, or an image of the aftermath of said Death Star's explosion? Did his body remain intact in the aftermath, or did only his spirit remain?
"Jedi's struggling with Bounty Hunters or Vehicles is PIS if anything; kinda like Superman getting owned by Omega Beams that were easily deflected by an ordinary brick."
Is it PIS if it happens more than once?
Something like this has been portrayed multiple times; it should be factored in when judging their statistic instead of chalking it up as PIS.
As for the Omega Beams that were deflected by an ordinary brick, considering that Superman was literally struggling while trying to push back that same omega beam, the PIS would apply to the brick instead of towards Superman in this case; the large piece of brick would have easily been busted by something as strong as those Omega Beams being fired.
For the rest of your post, AoE comes to effect during that combat scene. Said scene is emphasizing more on the fight between Doomsday and Superman, and not the portrayal of the feat itself, thus the feat where the concrete is dented probably isn't considered significant when it comes to Doomsday's actual strength.
As for Doomsday dying from an explosion that destroyed a city, that could be considered PIS. It's a single incident where a major portrayed feat kills an opponent that was portrayed to have a much higher durability in comparison to the attack that killed it.
That was my point and the rest of our points, Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency. Matt and Everlasting have context regarding the Death Star explosion, so I'll wait for one of them to comment back. Didn't someone also casually deflect a surface busting laser with their lightsaber strike before? I also find Jedi struggling with Bounty Hunters similar to Goku Vs Krillin in Dragon Ball Super. Darth Vader could have easily stomped and overkilled Boba Fett if he really.
Basically what Everlasting said, Destructive Capacity requires Attack Potency and Area of Effect in order to perform, Attack Potency is simply how strong your attacks are. Precision, is Energy/Area of Effect; some characters can have be 3-A despite Destructive capacity being Wall level at best due to lacking more than standard melee range.
"They may hold back all the time when fighting bounty hunters, but there doesn't seem to be strong evidence that these guys are holding back that much when fighting them."
Ehm wut? They may hold back but do not hold back?
Sorry, I mean "some of the time" instead of all the time.
But then, the gap is already large enough as it is between Building level (probably where the bounty hunters stand at in terms of their feats/durability individually) and Multi-Continent level.
If the gap is that large, then even when the Jedi/Sith are holding back, they should be able to casually ragdoll these bounty hunters without batting an eyelid.
Seeing that they are shown to actually struggle in the first place, the strength gap between the bounty hunters (and other non-force users who faced against Jedi/Sith) and the Force users themselves don't seem to be portrayed as that wide...
As for the Destructive Capacity =/= Attack Potency argument, Attack Potency applies when said character can physically contend with opponents who can either perform that level of Destructive Capacity/energy, or can endure that level of energy. In fact, this is the definition of it.
An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces.
Again, you just focus on the low-ends, the majority of them are within the movies and even those have much better feats you just ignore. You have yet to address a single of the higher-end, explicitly powerful feats involving Jedi and Sith.
I'm okay with the Attack Potency ratings, as I stated in the recent Star Wars upgrade thread.
It's just their physical strength during combat that irks me, that's all. Probably because I asked the question regarding why the Jedi/Sith's striking strength don't scale to their AP to CT more than once. ChaosTheory gave me a detailed answer why they don't scale to each other.
You should ask ChaosTheory about that topic. He'll likely give you a detailed answer regarding why it doesn't.
"We showed you numerous examples which you just ignore / try to downplay the most by inventing questions where there are none."
Could say the same thing to you. I should you numerous examples of why their striking strength should be looked at in more detail but you just ignore my points completely, or chalk them as PIS or whatnot.
Batman survived getting punched by Doomsday and Darkseid, and Bulma survived getting slapped by Beerus, does that mean their gap isn't that much weaker than those who easily rag dolled them? I know it's obvious Beerus and Darkseid were holding back, but it seems OoC for Doomsday to do the same, but it's the best answer that he was super casual since Batman clearly is that much weaker than him. Also, the comic book versions literally have Jedi and Sith ragdolling Bounty Hunters same way Krillin or Hercule get stomped by Cell or Buu.
"Batman survived getting punched by Doomsday and Darkseid, and Bulma survived getting slapped by Beerus, does that mean their gap isn't that much weaker than those who easily rag dolled them?"
Batman surviving getting punched by Doomsday and Darkseid would be a special case (and probably dealing with comics material here). It'd probably be an outlier for Batman in this case since he survived a hit that he shouldn't be able to survive.
Bulma getting slapped by Beerus? Not portrayed as a serious fight, and more of a gag feat, thus treating it as a serious fight wouldn't apply in this case either.
But then, all of these feats that you brought were isolated cases respective to their series. In the case of Star Wars, and how Bounty Hunters (as well as some non-force users/droids) were said to be able to harm and even kill Force users? It was brought up more than once throughout the lore, and should be taken into account here.
Speaking of General Grievous, Durge, and non-force users that were portrayed to contend with Force users, did any of the characters I mentioned directly survive, or went up against someone or something that is far above what their portrayed durability/physical strength would suggest? If any of the characters that were mentioned could survive a blast from an Imperial Star Destroyer, or something that causes major scale damage, it would make more sense.
Jedi and Sith do have durability that drops exponentially when they are asleep for example. That would explain the blasters argument. But when 100% focused, they can easily repel all those blasters; and even giant blasters can be easily deflected. And I agree with closing the thread since we're pretty much arguing in circles.
Matthew Schroeder wrote:
The moment there's that scene of Luke legit being shot with an AT-AT and not tanking any damage, without having to push his arms forward to block or dissipate the attack, should tell you all you need.
If this scene is from the comics version, mind posting the exact panel/scene please?