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  • SomebodyData
    SomebodyData closed this thread because:
    ... Just read the thread.
    03:30, September 2, 2018

    Continued from here, please read this so you see how it`s going right now.

    As the previous thread got derailed from the main topic, the best is to just make another thread for this, so here it is.

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    • There are absolutely no reasons for Smash to be canon to any of the series it features. We rejected scaling to characters from the same author if their universe isn't shared, something 80% more legit than Smash.

      Not sure why it's even being discussed.

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    • So you can`t just scale to crossovers?

      Wasn`t that already discussed?

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    • Read the Crossovers page. Smash Bros falls into the category of Non-Canon crossovers. And it counts as its own continuity. Scaling to feats from other Nintendo verses or using feats here to scale to any of the other characters who didn't originate from Smash Bros is not allowed.

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    • Please.Not this again.

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    • Notto
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    • ... Why ?

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    • Saikou The Lewd King wrote:
      There are absolutely no reasons for Smash to be canon to any of the series it features. We rejected scaling to characters from the same author if their universe isn't shared, something 80% more legit than Smash.

      Not sure why it's even being discussed.

      "Also this thread's been derailed to death either way. If you truly want Smash to be Tier 2, make another thread." - You

      I really wanted Tier 2 Smash, so I did this, you basically invited me to do this, so I decided to be honest and just make this as a response to that.

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    • I dont see why we can't make a smash bro page on their own it wouldn't be the first time that happens...

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    • In Smash 4, it just lists nothing under these Final Smash trophies. Meaning that it never lists the specific Smash trophies as their specific series. And saying "the canon character and smash character are exactly the same" are blatantly untrue. Pokemon Trainer had to catch all of his three Pokemon so it's clearly not the same as the one Red and Blue firstly. Secondly, Peach has never been shown being able to knock people out by dancing (or whatever her final smash from Brawl and 4 is). And lots of Final Smashes do abilities characters have never shown. We've also never seen Doctor Mario use his pills as weapons, Mario using a cape to reflect things, Ganon doing any of his moveset and much more.

      This website even has Smash Kirby different from normal Kirby. So I'm not sure why we're having an argument about if the Smash versions of the characters are different. Because they very, very much are.


      Master Hand Trophy Info

      Melee: Trophy #159: The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Be ready to get poked, punched, flicked, and swatted like crazy

      Brawl: A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination.

      3ds/Wii U: The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!

      I hope this can clear something out, it is stated to be the source of creation in Smash Bros universe that means smash is its own seperate universe with diffrent link or mario i think this warrant a change for each smash char

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    • Okay:

      0: "Meaning that it never lists the specific Smash trophies as their specific series. ", then again, the red, blue and yellow things´ trophy in Smash 4 that are clearly from Dr. Mario aren´t even with the mushroom series symbol, so that doesn´t matter.

      1: Red has had a few alternate versions of himself (I mean, we have about 4 profiles for him), so Red could be an exception for this, just like all Pokémon characters, as they are a species rather than an actual single character.

      2: I think it´s based from something in Super Princess Peach

      3: Mario was originally a semiclone of Maio back in Melee, so they had to be creative with the resources avaiable, just like with Zero Suit Samus in Smash 4 with her up special, fo example.

      We ofter see Mario throwing pills in the Dr. Mario games, then again, so this one doesn´t really matter.

      4: *cough* Super Mario World *cough*

      5: They clearly went a bit lazy and did Ganon as a semiclone of Captain Falcon, something that hopefully is changing in Ultimate (even if now it´s another Ganon) 

      6: "This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros."

      Okay, this statement only shows that Master Hand is nothing but an avatarof an higher dimensional being, which should likely make it High 2-A.

      " A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. "

      My previous statement is further supported by it.

      Smash 4´s description desn´t really bring anything useful to tthis table, so I won´t discuss it.

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    • I'm not sure if you noticed, but there is no way Smash could fit in stuff like Metroid's or LoZ's timelines for example. 

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    • That´s the esiest part.

      For Metroid, the timeline itself is still not very consistent, so I won´t bother to tell much about it, except that Samus was likely just dragged there.

      As for Zelda, well, it´s just like Wolf Link in Breath of the Wild, Link and others were just dragged for a few days (maybe weeks at most) to the Smash Bros verse.

      Of course the dragging should have happened after the plot of some game they were involved, that´s for sure.

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    • What? What inconsistencies? 

      What evidence do you have that Link for example was dragged in?

      It sounds more like excuses than evidence. Perhaps you can show any evidence where, say they mention the events of Smash bros? The closest we have is Kirby, but those are mostly cameos / their own versions. (Like the entire Smash Kirby and Kirby Kirby distinction)

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    • Bayonetta technically did reference Smash.

      But yeah, no way that's happening.

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    • Well, I tried looking up the Metroid timeline in YouTube, and it seems Other M and the Prime Trilogy are contradictional.

      I don´t have any proof that Link or others were dragged in, but I can say that Kirby has referenced Smash Bros with that one copy ability that has his Smash Bros moveset.

      Master and Crazy Hand are even bosses in Amazing Mirror, then again.

      Pit and Palutena also reference it a lot with 4th wall breaking Nintendo references every now and then.

      It´s likely that the rest of the series (as they aren´t owned by Sakurai, unlike the previously mentioned ones) didn´t say much about them due to potential copyright issues.

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    • Other M contradicts mostly everything. Its the black sheep for a reason.

      Isn't that because Sakurai is also the creator of Kirby?

      4th wall breaks seem hardly usable as evidence.

      Coyright issues? Most of them are Nintendo properties?...

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    • 1: Well, not that it really matters here.

      2: Well, I think I stated that already.

      3: It can still be considered in the long run.

      4: Well, I can´t think of another reason.

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    • Remember that point in the Zelda Timeline where after the Link from Twilight Princess killed Ganondorf he suddenly went to Brinstar Depths and teamed up with Sonic the Hedgehog to defeat King Dedede and Ryu because a large talking hand forced him too?

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    • Dust Collector wrote:
      Remember that point in the Zelda Timeline where after the Link from Twilight Princess killed Ganondorf he suddenly went to Brinstar Depths and teamed up with Sonic the Hedgehog to defeat King Dedede and Ryu because a large talking hand forced him too?

      This is the beauty of crossovers.

      And then there´s also Proyect X Zone 2, where Lucina, Shulk and Ryu can interact and nobody complains.

      As it´s seems this is at best questionable, we can just make a side key of their strongest one for the related characters with a rating of "Possibly 2-C":

      There´s also the Sonic Lost World DLC, where Sonic goes to Zelda and Yoshi´s Island.

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    • 1. The point is that it doesn't fit in the timeline.

      2. Then why bring it up?

      3. No, no it can't. It'll be like treating Warhammer 40k canon to Metroid because they reference the Horus Heresy.

      4.That's probably because there is no reason other than it simply being a crossover with no canonical implications?

      We don't treat Project X Zone 2 as canon to any of those franchises.

      Sonic Lost World isn't even canon (?) Sonic canon gets confusing now that they've debooted it?

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    • 1: Fine then

      2: Well, you mentioned it too, so...

      3: I need more context for that, as I don´t now what that "Horus Heresy" thing is.

      4: Then why do we still use that game as the main reason for his High 6-A rating?

      By the way, what? Sonic got a deboot? what even is a deboot?

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    • 2. Well yeah, but a point against you. If you already acknowledged it, then shouldn't you conceed that as an issue disproving the idea of it being canon?

      3. Basically Metroid Prime 3 (or 2) mentioned the Horus Heresy, again, as a simple reference, nothing actually tying it into the canon, similarily to the references in Kid Icarus.

      4. That's not the main reason though? And there is no actual energy result for the combined life energy, so even then, its a best something outdated, but most likely an accidental inclusion introduced in the seperation of eras.

      It was rebooted, then the reboot got canned, hence "deboot".

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    • How can you seriously think that we would come anywhere near close to admitting a goddam non-canon crossover as canon? I'm honestly mind-boggled at how much you debate for it.

      Smash having actually happened makes absolutely no sense in almost all of the franchises involved with it. Let alone stuff like certain characters being suddenly far bigger or smaller, certain characters being a weird Composite instead of a specific version of the character or character getting new nonsensical powers out of the blue.

      I also have no idea why you keep bringing up other crossovers and say that "nobody complains", when absolutely no crossover are used to scale things on our Wiki.

      tld;r We won't accept Smash, or any crossover for that matter, as canon to the original franchises. Ever.

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    • 1: I rethinked the context, it can fit, as I already said, it simply happened off-screen.

      2: Well, that really doesn´t matter much, it´s more in the sort that it´s just easier to pull off without having to ask others to see if they don´t mind.

      3: I tried looking that up and I couldn´t find it.

      4: Separation of eras?

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    • 1. No it can't fit, at all. Dark Samus and Ridley are both dead by Other M (The current Samus appearance), and Zero Suit Samus would insta-die against them. The fact that you think it can fit is actually beginning to alarm me.

      3. "Metroid Prime Horus Heresy / Horus Rebellion"?

      4. Yes, but that's beside the point.

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    • 59CC71E5-AC85-456A-A3FD-FE73625FAF7B
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    • 1: Other M is still regarded by many as just not canon.

      3: No results, maybe you could link a reference?

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    • 1.You cannot be seriously using fan headcanon as a point. Also, a reminder that Other M Samus is the Smash one, so saying its non-canon would make Smash inheritly non-canon anyways.

      3. If you can't find the scan:

      "The rebellion is also a possible reference to Warhammer 40000, a tabletop game produced by Games Workshop. In this universe, a rebellion known as the "Horus Heresy" took place led by a man known as Horus, who was corrupted by the Chaos Gods (similar to Dark Samus' corruption of the Space Pirates). This created a large schism in the Imperium of Man. Interestingly one of the early daemons which appeared within the series was called 'Samus'." - Metroid Wiki on the Horus Rebellion

      Although, at the end, the point is to show that simple reference does not confirm it as canon.

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    • Nah. Smash is canon. Everyone knows that Red never speaks because he’s seen some shit during the SSE ovo.

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    • In all seriousness, I’d sooner believe in a shared Nintendo universe (remember the time Kirby canonically helped Samus kill some Metroids?) than I would believe in canon Smash.

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    • Ngl I actually kinda like the idea that Metroid takes place in 40k, and given that it's more of a setting where individual stories take place that has an overarching timeline it's possible, but that's obviously not offical Canon.

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    • SomebodyData wrote:

      1: Well, either way, at most Other M Samus is there, and as we basically just maked her profile basically as a composite, in the end, it´s canon to Other M Samus.

      3: Well, unlike that reference, both are owned by the same company. 

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    • Is everyone going to ignore the fact that the entire Smash Bros verse is the imagination of a child? Why should the characters ABSOLUTELY be scaled to the Smash Bros characters if they're just the interpretations of what the child thinks of the characters?

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    • 1. ....What?

      3. That, has literally no effect on whether or not one is canon to the other?

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    • >Everyone going to ignore

      But...most of us agree with you lol.

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    • Oh. 

      Well then.

      CvMaRU-j 400x400
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    • Akreious wrote:

      1: Again, I basically just said that that "child" is just the "true body" of Master Hand, as Master Hand is Low 2-C, by trascending it, that "child" should just be High 2-A, which doesn´t amtter as Master Hand (his avatar) just dragged the canon characters there.

      2: Who said they are the interpretation of what he thinks?

      @SomebodyOnceToldMe

      1: In short, it´s still canon to Other M Samus

      2: Taken from the crossovers page of the site:

      "Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent."

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    • Yeah, this is ridiculous. 


      I'm closing the thread.

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