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  • Reppuzan
    Reppuzan closed this thread because:
    Derailed.
    16:10, June 13, 2018

    I would like to debate this.

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    • you mean other than the characters being canonically trophies?...(or amiibo, now that i think about it)

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    • Canon to what exactly?

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:
      Canon to what exactly?

      To the respective featured series in there.

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    • Because the character are just statues and not the real characters. And Smash takes place in its own universe.

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    • Most of it isn't canon since they're just trophies and not the real characters, but the Kid Icarus characters are implied to be the canon ones, and the amiibo characters in FE:fates are the same ones as from smash

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    • Proof that they are just toys?

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    • The entirety of Subspace Emissary

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      • The beginning of the Smash 64 opening
      • The beginning and ending of the Melee opening
      • Pretty much all of Subspace Emissary
      • Clearing any non-competitive mode after Smash 64
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    • What if they were just enhanced by something that Master Hand did so they wouldn`t actually hurt each other, so when any of them runs out of stamina or wants to rest (or anything in those lines), turns into a "toy"?

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    • Nothing suggests it

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    • JustSomeWeirdo wrote:
      Nothing suggests it

      Worth to consider.

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    • No its not it headcanon plus why would taboo a person stronger then master hand not one shot them because he’d over power master hands “protection” or what ever

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    • Jesterofgames wrote:
      No its not it headcanon plus why would taboo a person stronger then master hand not one shot them because he’d over power master hands “protection” or what ever

      Because it still works, but it only drains their stamina, so they are thus forced to go back to their "trophy" form.

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    • Because aside from Kid Icarus (which is chock full of fourth-wall breaking to other parts of Nintendo), the events of Smash Bros are never referenced outside of the games themselves in canon content.

      As the others have stated, the events of Smash Bros are essentially kids using toys and imagining the battles in their heads as evidenced by the openings of multiple games and several cutscenes.

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    • >Besides Kid Icarus

      Kirby has a copy ability literally called Smash with all of his Smash fighting moves tho, and Master Hand and Crazy Hand appear as bosses in Amazing Mirror that give him said ability.

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    • Kirby and Kid Icarus are the only Nintendo franchises I know of that reference Smash Bros, but both of those more so do it for gag purposes such as cameo's and 4th wall breaks respectively.

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    • I guess nothing can be done in this until Nintendo actually bothers to clear out how the canon of Smash exactly works (or if it`s just its own canon).

      Anything to say before I close this?

      I hope Kirby gets Hypernova as a Final Smash

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    • Probably because Sakurai is related to those.

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    • that was the joke

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    • Well, since aparently Low 2-C fighters is not "accurate" (Even tho they fought both Hands, Giga Bowser and Tabuu who are all Low 2-C) they would be stuck at at pathetic tier 7, which is fodder to almost every single fighter in their canon version.



      So yeah, unless they are Tier 4 or higher, they are literally useless to even have around imo.

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    • Tier doesn't determine whether a profile should stay or not

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    • Well, but of course. But they will be mostly useless.



      What use could you get out of a very limited tier 7 cloud ? If they were Low 2-C, those characters could see a lot more use and would justify the limited moveset.

      But limited moversets and a sub par tier? They can be made sure, but they would be most likely forgotten by time and would just absorb the god tier SSBU renders into them.

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    • So, i say, yeah make them.

      But do you really need to?



      I say they shouldnt be made as they are not going to be used and would just take away space.

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    • I can say the exact same about Low 2-C Smash

      Do you really need to? Or do you just want a Low 2-C version of X character

      Also, the argument of the profiles not being used is invalid as we have thousands of profiles and I doubt that most of them are used in versus threads

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    • Yeah, i want a Low 2-C version of characters.



      Of course i want to.



      Im just saying that you can make them if you wish, dont let me stop you, but what kind of use can you get out of a weaker and more limited version of a character on the wikia?

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    • The same thing you'd get from a stronger version of the same character, different matchups in different tiers, whether it be Low 2-C or Low 7-B

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    • Name 3 Low 7-B out of your head that fit with the smash Bros verse.

      Ill name 3 Low 2-Cs fights from top of my head.



      Goku (Goku Smash bros memes, Goku vs Mario video)

      Xenoblade Shulk (Vs Smash Shulk)

      EB Ness vs SSB Ness

      --

      Im not saying that Tier 7 Smash bros isnt reasonable or can´t be a thing, but, yeah, i dont see it being remotely useful having it around, and they would take away the new renders with them.



      Geez, what a shame.

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    • Maybe as a possibly?

      Yeah, that seems reasonable enough for me.

      Low 7-B, Possibly Low 2-C. Low 2-C (Able to fight Tabuu alongside the other fighters.) and Low 2-C (Comparable to fighters who can fight Tabuu.)


      Just as an option. I would really, really lament if the Smash Bros Characters are just that weak.

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    • RapidMotorcycle19 wrote:
      Name 3 Low 7-B out of your head that fit with the smash Bros verse.

      Define "fit the Smash Bros. Verse"?

      I don't see how this at all relates to your point about "usefulness".

      We are primarily an indexing site. VS Debating threads are just there as a secondary. We call ourselves VS Battles Wiki because obviously that sounds more exciting than "Character Index Wiki", and it was a name inherited by the wiki's founder.

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    • I still think Low 2-C should be added as a possibly.

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    • Scaling toys to the literal gods who control them cannot be viewed as anything but PIS.

      We use "possibly" rankings when that ranking is actually a possibility, not when we want to include outlier feats and scaling that doesn't make sense.

      This topic has already been discussed.

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    • It can always be discussed again.



      They fought Tabuu, not Master Hand, which is not "their creator"

      Also, Smash Throphies havebeen shown to be able to fight on their own with legit life on them, Smash 64 doesnt count since they are plus toys instead of throphies.



      So no, i dont see this being PIS, like, at all.

      The moment a "toy" comes alive, jumps around and breaks your hand, ill agree with ya.

      And not to mention that "Smash World" is indeed a thing where the thropies exist, and there is never any instance of a comparison with the real world.



      Smash Fighters are not regular toys, and thus, should scale.

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    • It looks like a possible new discussion rule might be in order if this repeats itself again.

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    • Yeah, i think it does.

      The more i look into this, the less reasonable it seems to claim Smash Fighters are just "toys" and thus, shouldn´t be scaled.

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    • Regardless Master Hand is the literal god of the Smash Universe and Tabuu one shot him. It's the same story. In fact, that makes it even more of an outlier. Lore wise Master Hand and Crazy Hand are far above the entire Smash cast.

      A single feat that's shared by the whole cast is still a single feat, not 30+ Low 2-C feats. 

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    • Thing is, i think you are all confusing the fighters.



      In Smash 64, they are plush toys, no argument there. They are indeed toys.



      But Brawl shows us that those fighters are not only alive by their own, they have their own realm, and they are around the same size as Master Hand, which can be hurt by them. 

      If this is an outlier, then you should have a better argument that "they are toys", this has not been the case since Melee.

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    • I'm not arguing solely because they're toys. 

      I'm arguing that putting them at Low 2-C means scaling them to the literal gods of the Smash universe and the guy who curbstomped them, toys or not. 

      I don't understand your point about the whole "having their own realm" thing, even assuming it's true. 

      Master Hand being hurt by them is the very feat you're trying to claim isn't an outlier here. You can't use the feat to justify itself.

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    • I'm arguing that putting them at Low 2-C means scaling them to the literal gods of the Smash universe and the guy who curbstomped them, toys or not. 

      Your argument is that because they are "Literal Gods" they simply cannot be hurt? (Seriously, what does "literal gods" even mean in this context?)

      Then lets upgrade Aqua from Konosoba at Tier 1 at once, since no one can beat gods aparently.

      Seriously, explain yourself.

      ---

      Anyways, Master Hand was one shotted, not "curbstomped". (Is that even an argument?)

      And, the biggest proof on my side is that Sonic broke Tabuu´s wings and Ganondorf was able to strike Tabuu before being pushed away by the forcefield.

      ---

      It is true. 
      RSBE01-12
       Remember this thing? What do you think it is?
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    • Your argument is that because they are "Literal Gods" they simply cannot be hurt? (Seriously, what does "literal gods" even mean in this context?)

      They logically should be far superior to the fighters lore wise, and the fighters being able to hurt them is an outlier. I call them "literal gods" because they are responsible for the creation of the universe in Smash Lore.

      Anyways, Master Hand was one shotted, not "curbstomped". (Is that even an argument?)

      You're nitpicking at my word choice here. "He was one-shot, not curbstomped, therefore your point no longer stands". 

      Yes, it is indeed an argument. It proves that Tabuu is far stronger than them, and that makes it even more of an outlier than scaling to them in the first place.

      And, the biggest proof on my side is that Sonic broke Tabuu´s wings and Ganondorf was able to strike Tabuu before being pushed away by the forcefield.

      You've ignored half of my post and continued to use the feats to justify themselves. Telling me how Sonic damaged Tabuu's wings doesn't make the feat consistent; it's the very feat that you're trying to prove isn't an outlier. You can't use the feat itself as proof that the feat isn't an outlier.

      I'm arguing that the feats are outliers, not that they don't exist.

      Ganon's feat isn't a feat, though. He didn't even touch Tabuu before being pushed back.

      It is true.  Remember this thing? What do you think it is?

      And yes, SSE is indeed a thing. They live in the universe that Master Hand created. What's your point here?

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    • Scaling the Smash Bros cast to Master Hand or Tabuu is the equivalent of scaling Dan Hibiki to Akuma, scaling Mokap to Shao Kahn, or scaling Batman to the Spectre. This has been discussed multiple times and turns out to be repetitive.

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    • They logically should be far superior to the fighters lore wise

      Your logic doesnt cut it, post proof.



      and the fighters being able to hurt them is an outlier.

      But Why? That is the question i have.

      There are multive JRPG verses where the protagonists kill God, are they all an outlier now? Just because they are "Gods"? (Bravely Default, Xenoblade, Xenosaga, etc.)




      I call them "literal gods" because they are responsible for the creation of the universe in Smash Lore.



      You are wrong.

      Master hand is only stated to be 
      RSBE01-152
      "a link beyond the world of throphies and the world beyond"

      Which further helps my case that the throphies live in their own, separate reality. Aka. they are 100% not "Toys"

      Even the throphy states that Master Hands takes JOY in fighting them, there is no statement that he is restrianing himself in any shape nor fashion. Nor that he "created" the Smash World. 

      If they are separate realities, i could argue a 2-C tiering could also be plausible.



      Your move.

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    • RapidMotorcycle19
      RapidMotorcycle19 removed this reply because:
      s
      06:18, June 13, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Scaling the Smash Bros cast to Master Hand or Tabuu is the equivalent of scaling Dan Hibiki to Akuma, scaling Mokap to Shao Kahn, or scaling Batman to the Spectre. This has been discussed multiple times and turns out to be repetitive.

      Nah, it is really not.



      I think i have sufficient proof that preperly states that...



      1.-Master Hand never ever created the Smash World

      2.-Smash Fighters are not toys

      3.-Smash World is a separate reality than our own

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    • And, before you post the Smash 4 throphy, notice it says "The Source of Creation IN the Smash Universe." not "OF the Smash Universe."

      So yeah, they should scale by reasons above.

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    • RapidMotorcycle19 wrote:
      And, before you post the Smash 4 throphy, notice it says "The Source of Creation IN the Smash Universe." not "OF the Smash Universe."

      So yeah, they should scale by reasons above.

      Scale to what? You do know Master Hand creating the universe is the reason he is Low 2-C, right? Same thing for Tabuu. He's Low 2-C for defeating them. 

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    • Well, then a donwgrade seems likely if that is the case, unless anyone can argue he can destroy the Smash World if not the world beyond.



      Smash 4 and Brawl say he didnt create the world, but is a source of creation IN that world (Aka. in within it).

      Melee is the only one that states the Smash World could be imaginary, but we are not really counting Melee into this.

      Just Subspace emissary (Brawl) and the fighters that scale from Smash 4.

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    • The fact that he is the source of all creation in the universe means he created the entire cast, thus meaning is still obviously far superior to them. In fact this means he created the stars and the planets, and even if we assume he did it one celestial body at a time, it means he generated the GBE to necessitate that. That's at least 4-C, but we generally treat that stuff as 4-A. 

      Regardless that's just a supporter feat. He's superior to the creation trio, whom he also should have created at some point. They have universal statements on their trophies. 

      Either way you cut it he's far superior to the cast. And scaling them to the guy who oneshot him is the same story; it's an outlier. They're currently ranked as Low 7-B due to Kirby's Down B feat, which is far more likely to scale to everyone, as it's a feat performed by a generic fighter that has been there since the beginning, not "literally god".

      I'll respond to any points you pose later. It's 3 AM here.

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    • Super smash bros trophies master hand by hawtlinkgasm64-dab1f40
      "The Source OF creation" not the "source of ALL creation."



      The throphy says he creates stuff, nothing more, nothing else.

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    • In every smash game we defeat Master Hand, I still don't know why we consider it an outlier.

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    • You said it There.

      I guess all "god killing" in this wikia should be deemed outliers then.

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    • Uh no, some characters are legit above all their peers and/or show progression in power levels; especially Dragon Ball and JRPG characters. Here, is a fighting game with static power levels outside of PIS, and which Tabuu and Master Hand are canonically above the entire playable cast put together. Tabuu stomps the party as easily as Sindel stomps the Mortal Kombat 9 cast. Sonya Blade is clearly not on par with Raiden or Shao Kahn.

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    • Explain Sonic, dude.



      Anywyas, kinda late for me where i live so see ya folks later

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    • Smash isn't canon.



      Surely thats enough.

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    • Yeah, but we do have non canon profiles all around the wikia. Like EoH Jotaro.

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    • Seriously, this downplay is only based on "Nu huh they are gods and they are filthy peasants, they cannot hurt them". 

      Seriously, even if Smash characters do not gain "levels" per se, killing monsters doesnt justify klling gods either, Medeus.



      This is not an outlier, not PIS. 

      Killing gods is pretty much a TROPE at this point, and any arguments of "Nu Huuuh they are gods you cannot hurt them or PIS!" are absurd and we should have out Low 2-C Smash profiles.

      Who is with me.
      Akarin
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    • No, we dont need non canon profiles for every Smash character. Honestly, only for those like R.O.B. and Duck Hunt, who have nothing else.

      And even so, as if Low 2-C Pichu

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    • Would the Children get profiles ? You know, the ones alluded to be above the Smash Bros Multiverse as... They sort of view it like fiction or something ? They were alluded to in Melee and the 64 game.

      As for the topic... I am rather neutral for now.

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    • They should be downgraded to Tier 10. They're just toys and a kid. Nothing more.

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    • @Rein ... I don't agree with that for obvious reasons.

      Sonic in Smash Bros .... Sort of bodied Tabuu without trying. They should scale to him post-Smash Bros Brawl  I would believe... Because at least that would allow circular scaling. If we allowed, we could potentially see it like this :

      Smash Bros Brawl  l Post-Smash Bros Brawl

      Those who would appear Post-Smash Bros Brawl would scale to Sonic, who fought Tabuu. Sonic doesn't neccessarily fight anyone else in Smash sans Tabuu during Brawl . So... It could be a possible way to scale everyone to it . 

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    • I know. It's a joke. As I played SSB games and even pretty meta at it, I'm baffled with their tiers. How should they not scale to Master Hand and guys? We even defeated Tabuu in Subspace Emissary and Master Core in SSB 4.

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    • I just used those keys because of consistency. In my personal opinion: It makes much more sense for them to scale to Sonic post-SSBB rather than during Super Smash Bros Brawl... Since they showed Sonic as ridiculously superior to everyone else . This way ... It's at least more consistent . 

      So... During Smash Bros Brawl... Low 7-B

      Post Smash Bros Brawl... Low 2-C . 

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    • I agree with DarkDragon.

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    • I never said I agreed with it though... Let's not get it twisted. I'm just trying to find a way to appease both sides.

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    • 64 no. (Fighters are 100% plush dolls) Melee a big maybe. (Since they state thay the Smash bros world is imaginary.)

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    • Rrinhard, 2nd and therefir agree with me having low 2-c as an optional, separate form.


      Seriously, what bothers you so much of havimng a separate form for this? Just let us have the option, and it is backed up by Sonic's and Ganondorf's feats, the description for Smash Brawl's Master Hand and Smash world being a separate reality than the real world.

      Not to mention that CLASSIC MODE is shown to be canon in Master Hand's throphy, saying he outright challenges the fighters.

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    • I'd rather not arbitrarily split 64, Melee and such from the rest of the games, especially not if it's used to wank the verse.

      It's pretty consistent that Master Hand is an allegory for a kid playing with his toys. Scaling the "toys" themselves (the Smashers) to it can't really work.

      Regardless, we had an entire thread debunking this earlier. Unless you have something new to bring up, there is little reasons for this discussion.

      On the other hand, saying that scaling to Tabuu doesn't work because he one-shot everyone is flawed; he did so with his strongest attack, and he was only defeated once said attack was disabled by Sonic.

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    • I do not think they Qualify for this

      Canon is smash

       

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    • Also this thread's been derailed to death either way. If you truly want Smash to be Tier 2, make another thread.

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    • Not to mention that half of Rapid's arguments come from circular reasoning; using the very feats he's trying to argue consistency for to prove that they're consistent.

      Of course Sonic damaged Tabuu; everyone did that. It's not 30+ different Low 2-C feats, it's a single Low 2-C feat.

      Same thing with fighting Master Hand; hurting Master Hand isn't evidence that the feat isn't PIS.

      Also, your statement about Ganondorf hitting Tabuu is wrong.

      But anyways this thread was mega derailed. You should make a new one if you're willing to continue this discussion.

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