Essentially. there have been numerous Speed Calculations regarding Marvel Heroes, and it has been decided that the speed values of a number of character profiles need to be changed accordingly. The problem comes with who should scale to what calculation exactly, and who shouldn't.
Js250476 wrote: Same I think he has to many consistent showings of reacting to MFTL+ characters to ignore
There are also many showings of street level or MHS characters keeping up with him. Either we can treat their feats as outliers or treat Hulk's feats as outliers, I don't have a particular opinion on that tbh.
I'll ask them, Looks like this is gonna take a long time, maybe until winter.
I'm going to be inactive during the summer holidays btw, because I'm going to study in USA and I'll be inactive or even completely absent, so I won't be able to help out on this or any revision including Assaltwaffle's.
The problem is that the non-flying powerhouses are generally treated as considerably slower than Spider-Man and similar characters, and have no feats of their own exceeding MHS+, whereas the cosmic characters do in fact have MFTL+ feats. It is a case of Marvel's standard "anybody can fight anybody" principle.
Well, its just that I find it weird that Hercules is so vastly below Thor in speed when the two of them were shown to be equals and has fought numerous times sometimes having matches that last for hours (there are statements that they are so evenly match in skills that both of them cant find openings, Thor even admitted that Hercules is better than him in h2h)
In my opinion, Whiplash should probably be Large Island level+, since his current suit it was made from the Iron Man Armor Model 29 (Extremis), which should be superior to his Model 9 predecesor by a huge margin, but that is just me.
Talking about IM, have anyone saw the new armor? Should we add it to the profile?
Newendigo wrote: In my opinion, Whiplash should probably be Large Island level+, since his current suit it was made from the Iron Man Armor Model 29 (Extremis), which should be superior to his Model 9 predecesor by a huge margin, but that is just me.
The soul sword has shattered the crimson bands of Cyttorak and also temporarily killed Dormammu within Limbo, but the latter was Bendis writing and he doesn't care about logical powerscaling in the slightest.
Also, what about his tier, I think he should also be comparable to Iron Fist, Iron Fist said that Shang Chi is a better fighter than him, Black Panther and Nick Fury also said something like that. Also, in Heroes for Hire, The Cat (Who was said to be 2nd to Shang Chi) defeated Iron Fist
Well, in their original fight back in the late 1970s Shang said that Iron Fist was equal in skill to himself, but had an advantage due to his superhuman power. Regardless, currently Marvel has officially ranked Shang as more skilled than Danny, but those rankings also classified the Thing as stronger than the Sentry, so they are not very reliable. Regardless, your examples should be valid enough.
Agreed about Sandman and Lizard. Classic Doctor Octopus is complicated, since physically he was an out of shape somewhat elderly man, but his mechanical arms should probably be comparable to Spider-Man.
Well, from what I recall Spider-Man seemed to exert himself to avoid Sandman's attacks on various occasions, so I am not sure if he is really extremely slower, or simply does not have as high agility and no battle precognition.
Well, let's place Sandman at unknown speed for the time being then, although he has alsp fought evenly with the Thing as a member of the Frightful Four in the past, so he is kind of hard to properly evaluate the power level for.
That doesn't particularly make sense, as he only has MHS feats on his own, cannot fly through outer space at MFTL+ speeds, and is generally treated as slower than Spider-Man. Maybe we could place a variable speed tier on all powerhouse characters (Hulk, Hercules, Red Hulk etcetera) with Fin Fang Foom as a lower border and Thor as an upper border? It depends on what Matthew thinks though.
I'm a little late and my knowledge is rather limited, but isn't Hulk like the type of character who almost always holds back in most of his fights? It's pretty obvious his flight speed isn't MFTL+, but his combat speed may be a different story. Additionally, Hulk's combat speed shouldn't be slower than Iron Man's for example, and Thor did have at least 2 MFTL+ combat speed feats calc'd by LordXcano irrc. IMO, a Serious Hulk should still be comparable to Thor and Silver Surfer.
@Dark IIRC your right in a lot of fights Hulk doesn’t go all out ether because he’s holding his anger back or he just wants to be left alone
Plus Hulk i believe is usually portrayed as having far higher reaction and combat speed then travel or movement it’s how sometimes he can struggle to hit Spider-Man yet can tag Silver Surfer mid flight with a rock
I dont know about you guys but I always think Red Hulk beating Thor and Silver Surfer was PIS
The Silver Surfer that he has beaten is also not 616 Surfer, it was a SS from a previous timeline who only has his powers for a while and has trouble beating Terrax. Shouldnt we just scale him to Hulk or reword his justification?
It is sometimes hard to tell who to scale. Fing Fang Foom is Sub-Relativistic in his feat and Iron Man is full of crazy speed feats himself, but I don't think most 5-B to 4-B people that don't fly or have many feats of their own scale.
Gray Hulk and Thing are obviously way slower and weaker than Thor, but Sub-Relativistic scaling from Fin Fang Foom might be good. Green Hulk pretty much stomps Iron Man whenever he's serious, and has tagged consistently kept up with Thor in combat. World War Hulk for sure is quite OP and on par with Sentry.
That version I think it's not to most ideal to use. I still prefer the 5-B as it is the most consistent one with other feats for similar characters, but there is Kep's 5-A recalc which seems mostly accepted.
I'm pretty sure that Namor scales to the Fin Fang Foom/Iron Man feat. Maybe we can just change it so that the Thing scales to Namor instead (though I think Namor should be faster than the Thing, but they have fought before so I think its possible to scale the Thing to him)
If thats not good
He also defeated Sandman (Who's unknown so Ben will also be unknown)
I know we moved pasted the street tiers but I noticed Black Panthers profiles uses the grinder feat now and I was wondering shouldn’t that be on Hawkeye’s profiles to since he also dodged it with him and the profile mentions he’s comparable to Daredevil and Cap in speed
I am iffy on scaling some street level characters to MHS+. Like Bullseye, who was shown to be Hypersonic consistently and not to mention that Bullseye gets tagged by bullets most of the time.
But, that's just my bias. Calcs seem appropriate. I think that we should still keep the MHS+ Travel speed for Hulk. His MFTL+ Reaction and Combat speed have shown to be consistent when he is going all out.
Kahndaq Lord wrote: I am iffy on scaling some street level characters to MHS+. Like Bullseye, who was shown to be Hypersonic consistently and not to mention that Bullseye gets tagged by bullets most of the time.
Bullseye has a pretty good track record against Elektra and has fought against Wade before (He lost though, but not easily). I think he should still scale them
The problem i have with Bullseye is that, along with Elektra and similar characters, they are all consistently hypersonic.
But here is the thing:
Daredevil has his Radar Sense. Which we described as:
Radar Sense: A form of Human Echolocation via low wave projection, according to one theory, a energy within certain portions of the electromagnetic spectrum. The signal emanates from sending regions of his brain, after which it travels outward, bounces off objects around him, and returns to receiving regions of his brain. In any event, with this ability, Murdock synthesizes a very close analogue of three-dimensional 360% human sight. Stan Lee has stated Daredevil's Radar Sense is better than Spider-Man's Spider-Sense.
This is similar to Spider-man's case. Both of them have enhanced senses which allow them to react to certain attacks which should be impossible to react to in normal circumstances.
Hell, Spider-Sense is even described to be a form of Precognition and Daredevil's Radar Sense should at least be comparable to it.
Antvasima wrote: The radar sense and spider-sense work in very different manners. One simply shows the surroundings in a 360 degree angle, and the other is a low-level form of precognition.
Spider-Sense may be a low level of precognition, but it still alerts him of danger before anything can occur. Combine that with his decent speed , you get a character who can react to attacks which he shouldn't be able to react to without his precognition.
Now, Let's analyze the Daredevil calc:
We do know that Daredevil has his senses enhanced to a superhuman level + his Radar sense which gives him a 360 angle and makes him aware of what's happening around him.
Now why does that even matter? Because Electro announces that he was going to attack + Daredevil clearly states that his senses protected him in the top right corner. Implying that he would have been roasted otherwise.
Yes, I dont think we should put characters who have been consistently shown to match Daredevil as MHS while Daredevil is MHS+, I agree that Radar Sense is pretty awesome though, I think its more detailed than spidy's sense, but we cant ignore characters matching Daredevil